Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Kevin Pallier on July 22, 2015, 01:45:46 AM
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Jerry K's recent topic got me thinking.
St. Andrews (Old), Shinnecock Hills (1931), Pine Valley (1915), Merion (1912) arguably 4 of the Top 5 courses of all time only have two P5's on their scorecards. I appreciate that overtime technology has played a part in affecting same but with a great variety and mix of P4's (amongst other things) these courses are highly revered.
What other "great" courses out there have only two P5's (or less) ? When were they built ?
Why don't modern designers copy such a "template" per se ?
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Pasatiempo, Old White at Greenbrier and Aronimink all have only two par 5s.
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Swinley Forest, West Sussex
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Wentworth East - Harry Colt - 1924
It is a par 68 with only one par five, and frankly, the one par five is the easiest scoring hole on the course (and laid out on similar terrain with an easier approach than the preceding par 4 which is only about 50 yards shorter).
Wentworth usually gets trashed by the architecture-ati for the disaster that has befallen the West course (which seemed overrated before the makeover), but the East course is a charming track that is great fun and has a wonderful variety of holes.
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I may be alone in judging Royal St. David's as a great course, certainly a very good one in any case. It has but two Par 5's and they are back to back (7th and 8th). They are also darned near parallel to boot.
Admittedly this is the weakest aspect of the routing IMHO.
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I think you would also have to include Rye in this list. It has only one par 5 and that is the 1st..
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Wannamoisett has one par 5 on 17.
Yale has two on 16 and 18.
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Plymouth Country Club (Ross)
1 - at the 16th
Interestingly there are five fours over 450
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Plymouth Country Club (Ross)
1 - at the 16th
Interestingly there are five fours over 450
CC of Waterbury(Ross) has 1 at the 9th
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Wannamoisett has a lone par 5, today, though the original routing played the long 2nd hole as a par 5. I'm fairly certain it played as a par 5 during the 1931 PGA, but I'm unclear as to when it changed to a par 4. But today, it's a par 69 with just the par 5 17th
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Concord CC in Mass....1/17...although 5 is the most likely score on par 4s at 2/3/4/16.
Essex County in Mass...3/5...and #3 is 625, and #5 is only 460.
I think Elie has zero?
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Wannamoisett has a lone par 5, today, though the original routing played the long 2nd hole as a par 5. I'm fairly certain it played as a par 5 during the 1931 PGA, but I'm unclear as to when it changed to a par 4. But today, it's a par 69 with just the par 5 17th
I remember a few years ago getting a call from a friend who said he just got to play Wannamoisett and didn't know what all the fuss was about on the 2nd hole as "I made 5". I told him that was great but that the hole was a par 4. ;D
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Wannamoisett has a lone par 5, today, though the original routing played the long 2nd hole as a par 5. I'm fairly certain it played as a par 5 during the 1931 PGA, but I'm unclear as to when it changed to a par 4. But today, it's a par 69 with just the par 5 17th
I remember a few years ago getting a call from a friend who said he just got to play Wannamoisett and didn't know what all the fuss was about on the 2nd hole as "I made 5". I told him that was great but that the hole was a par 4. ;D
Ganton has three Par 5's but one of them is quite short, around 438 from the visitors tees. I played there for a week in 2012 and kept hitting into the numerous bunkers on the hole, racking up 6's and 7's and "others". Finally on my very last round I hit the fairway with my tee shot, hit it again with my second and knocked an 8-iron onto the green about 10 feet from the hole.
Here's the thing. I had been thinking all week it was a Par 4. And it was the only hole I had not parred at least once. So when the putt misssed I tapped into for 5 and told the member I had joined up with on the first tee, "This is the only hole I can't figure out how to make par". He pointed out that it was, in fact, a Par 5 and I'd just parred it!
Guess it serves me right for not carrying a scorecard.
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Like many older courses in GB&I, Brora used to have one par-5 and a par of less than 70. A couple of years ago the 11th hole was converted to a par-5, to raise the par for the course to 70.
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Royal Cinque Ports (Deal) has only two par 5s... 3 & 5.
There used to be three, but the powers that be just converted #16 into a par four.
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Wannamoisett has a lone par 5, today, though the original routing played the long 2nd hole as a par 5. I'm fairly certain it played as a par 5 during the 1931 PGA, but I'm unclear as to when it changed to a par 4. But today, it's a par 69 with just the par 5 17th
I remember a few years ago getting a call from a friend who said he just got to play Wannamoisett and didn't know what all the fuss was about on the 2nd hole as "I made 5". I told him that was great but that the hole was a par 4. ;D
Ha, I said the same thing when I finished the hole for the first time. Made a nice up and down for 4 thinking it was a birdie
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Royal Cinque Ports (Deal) has only two par 5s... 3 & 5.
There used to be three, but the powers that be just converted #16 into a par four.
That's another one that I initially thought was a hell of a hard Par 4 until Mark or Tony or someone reminded me it is (was) a 5. I guess now I'm retroactively correct, it's one hell of a hard Par 4.
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Colonial CC in Fort Worth, Texas only has 2 par 5's (the 1st and 11th holes). Colonial was build in 1936.
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I bet the list would be rather lengthy if we just re-labeled any 5 of less than 510 yards as a nasty 4. Oh, is that the point?
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The Island has two, one of which (15) is a belter. It also has some v tough long par 4s (7, 12 and particularly the 18th all come to mind).
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Old Town Club, par 70, 2 par 5's (#4 and #17). Built in 1939.
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Tain (par-70) is another old GB&I course with two par-5's.
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The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some. 15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips. Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.
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Chicago Golf Club has 2, the 4th and 16th.
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Camargo, Crystal Downs and Inverness.
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Pasatiempo, in fact, has three par 5s--nos. 6, 9, and 13. At various times in its history, nos. 1 and 2 have also played as par 5s.
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Pasatiempo, Old White at Greenbrier and Aronimink all have only two par 5s.
Jon, when it opened, Pasatiempo had five par 5s! Now it has three, 6, 9 and 13. One and two were par 5s on the original card, with the second tee behind the entrance road.
EDIT: sorry JC, I see our posts crossed.
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Royal Cinque Ports (Deal) has only two par 5s... 3 & 5.
There used to be three, but the powers that be just converted #16 into a par four.
:o >:( ???
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Just played a lovely one the other day -- Colt's Toronto Golf Club.
http://www.torontogolfclub.com/Golf-Course/Colt-Course-(1)/Colt-Course-(1).aspx
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Elie has none! It's a great course in my book.
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Thanks, Bill. Gotta keep our history alive.
Alex, I couldn't agree more. It's a must play on every trip to the Kingdom. 16 par 4s, but that matters not a whit.
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Aldeburgh also has zero and is a solid course.
Kevin, one could argue that RMW only a maximum of 2 par fives.
Certainly the pro's play the 2nd and 12th as fours and, I'd suggest the 15th would be too.
PS: they're still great holes!
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Austin Golf Club has only two...no. 9 and no. 15.
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A couple of others -
Huntercombe has 2, and one of them is seriously short.
Frilford[size=78%] Heath (Green) only has 1, and that's pretty short as well.[/size]
Cruden Bay only has 2.
Atb
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The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some. 15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips. Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.
When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's
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Cavalier Golf Club in Virginia Beach is a Charles Banks/Lester George design with one par 5.
https://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/lester_george_completes_remodel_of_tornadodamaged_cavalier_gyc
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The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some. 15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips. Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.
When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's
The 14th was a par 5 but the 15th was a par 4. They changed those two holes when they put a retention pond in the late 60s. The 14th was still over 600 yards when first designed though I believe.
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Elie has none! It's a great course in my book.
No par 5s but an incredibly diverse 16 par 4s! They range in length from 256 yards to 450+, with 2, 7, 9, and 15 driveable depending on the wind.
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The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some. 15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips. Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.
When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's
The 14th was a par 5 but the 15th was a par 4. They changed those two holes when they put a retention pond in the late 60s. The 14th was still over 600 yards when first designed though I believe.
I saw a scorecard from the 1924 PGA Championship that listed the 15th as a par 5 at 452 yards.
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The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some. 15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips. Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.
When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's
The 14th was a par 5 but the 15th was a par 4. They changed those two holes when they put a retention pond in the late 60s. The 14th was still over 600 yards when first designed though I believe.
I saw a scorecard from the 1924 PGA Championship that listed the 15th as a par 5 at 452 yards.
Sorry Ben, I just assumed it was a par 4. The Tufts archives stuff doesn't mention what par the holes were in 1917. So I stand corrected.
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Isn't this essentially a list of great courses with par of 70 or less? The list of great courses with two or fewer par 5s and a par of 72 or more would be a lot shorter.
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Elie has none! It's a great course in my book.
No par 5s but an incredibly diverse 16 par 4s! They range in length from 256 yards to 450+, with 2, 7, 9, and 15 driveable depending on the wind.
2, 5, 6, 7, 10, 15 and 18 are all driveable by really long players. For ordinary mortals, 7 is easily driveable in the prevailing wind (I have hit 5 iron and I'm no flatbelly) after which 10 is the next easiest. 12 is 465 yards from the back tees and is the longest par 4, though 9 often plays longer as it is straight into the prevailing wind.
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Isn't this essentially a list of great courses with par of 70 or less? The list of great courses with two or fewer par 5s and a par of 72 or more would be a lot shorter.
Not sure if this is tongue in cheek- but interesting. Are there any courses with less than 2 short holes?
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Isn't this thread (as originally stated) somewhat confused, certainly in a British context, by the gradual erosion during the 1960s of 'bogey' as the measure of a whole? For much of the modern (i.e. rubber-cored) era, The Old Course had not two three-shot holes, but three (the Road Hole was always a bogey five), and bogey overall 73. It's a truly instructive exercise to compare the original, 1962 bogey-defined edition of Frank Pennink's Golfer's Companion with its 1976 par-defined successor (Frank Pennink's Choice of Golf Courses). Certain celebrated low-par courses were actually very high-bogey links, and possessed much larger numbers of three-shot holes than would now be countenanced.
Just by way of comparison, to take three celebrated examples whose courses remained largely unchanged during the bogey-par transition
Rye (1962 men's bogey 72, 1976 men's par 67)
Aldeburgh (1962 bogey 72, 1976 par 68)
Harlech (1962 bogey 76, 1976 par 69 (and it had for a period in the late 1960s been par 68))
In another extreme example, Saunton (East) had a 1962 bogey of 77 and a 1976 par of 70).
This transition also of course coincided with almost 100% application of the (I think) CONGU guidelines about lengths of holes in relation to par, and the erosion of individual club discretion: all holes of between 250 and 475 yards were designated par four, regardless of design or context. The number of British clubs which apparently possessed, under this rubric, a hole of 476 yards in length was striking, and certainly exceeded greatly the number of clubs which possessed a hole of 474 yards...Any statistician will tell you that how you measure something always impacts the performance of what is being measured, and I do think that the reputation for difficulty enjoyed by all three of Rye, Aldeburgh and Harlech has increased as the usage of bogey has declined. In the present century, deviation from these strictures about the appropriate par for a given length of hole has (rightly) become once again more widespread, and whilst golfers tend to notice championship venues with par fours of over 500 yards, less attention is focussed on those holes (like the 13th at Westward Ho!, a 442-yard par five, or the above-mentioned 16th at Huntercombe, a 468-yard par five) which have rather pleasingly gone the other way.
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Richard
I am a big fan of bogey score and think it should be re-introduced along with a review of par for courses. These two steps would take a big bite out of the "courses aren't challenging enough to be used for championships" argument and hopefully reduce the perceived (I say perceived because adding length is not nearly the best way to increase challenge for flat bellies) need to increase length.
Think of a system where handiap players are now playing on a bogey card of 76 and expert players on a par card of 68. It makes far more sense than what exists now.
I wonder about Huntercombe's 16th. It may not have been a par 5 originally. I think the green was pushed back from the hollow by some 25 yards and there may have originally been more room to swing left around the hollow. Notice the hollow left of the green...between that and fronting hollow was likely the fairway. Much of it is now rough and trees encroach on the left hollow. It would be great to see the club clear out the left and extend the green to the fronting hollow.
Ciao
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Dear Sean,
How very observant you are! The 16th at Huntercombe was always a bogey five (officially 493 yards at the opening of the course in May 1901, when it was the third hole as the course played for the first sixty years or so of its existence), but in John Moreton's Century of Golf at Huntercombe (2001) we are told that 'The mounds around the green were built up in 1971, under the guidance of CK Cotton, and nineteen yards added to retain the par rating'. Huntercombe must be one of very few courses to play two hundred yards shorter in its current form than at its opening 114 years ago, when the whole was a (very substantial) 6522 yards. Even allowing for improvement in measuring techniques, invariably reducing rather than enlarging the lengths of individual holes, this shrinkage is striking. Incidentally, I had the great pleasure of hosting GCA friend and ally David Normoyle at the 'Combe on Friday, and you and others will be glad to know that the work of clearing out the undergrowth continues: there is now (e.g.) a splendid clear view behind the first green, right over the Oxfordshire plain.
As for bogey, I am in complete agreement. One of the many splendid aspects of The Sacred Nine has been its adherence to both a professional par (35), and a bogey (37) for amateur and club play. Other clubs could usefully follow suit.
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Richard
It could also be that in the change of handicapping system, the 16th became a par 4. Its hard to believe it remained a par 5 for its entire existence. Otherwise, why squeeze out more yards to that 475ish mark?
Yes, I think Huntercombe was considered very long in its day. I have seen some old yardages and few stand out as remarkably changed. Maybe you would care to offer your opinion #s 2, 3, 5 and 14. I don't want to overly hijack this thread so reply using the link.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html)
Ciao
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Is there already a CGA thread explaining the 'bogey' scoring system?
If so, perhaps someone would be good enough to post the relevant link or else perhaps
enlighten folk by explaining how it works and how it would operate in relation to the calculation of handicaps etc[size=78%].[/size]
atb
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Prairie Dunes with the 7th and 17th that appropriately run in opposite directions for wind consideration.
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Now that 18 has been converted into a brute of a par 4, Olympia Fields North has just two -- No. 1 and No. 15.
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Inverness #8 and #13. Originally had 3
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Lakeside in Burbank, California has only two par 5's. Many here wouldn't consider it a great course, but I sure do.
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Par-68 Longniddry has none. Walked around with my father in June during a team match. Great course.
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Am I wrong that Merion only has 2 par 5s? Or was that just for the Open?
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TPC River Highlands has just two par fives, at 6 and 13. Given the (present and) future constraints on water usage, they ought to be the first ones to go. I refuse to believe a world-class course without a hole longer than 480 or so yards cannot be built.
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Concord CC in Mass....1/17...although 5 is the most likely score on par 4s at 2/3/4/16.
Essex County in Mass...3/5...and #3 is 625, and #5 is only 460.
I think Elie has zero?
Correct re Elie, on the card. Which begs the question, WTF is par, anyway. (On the card, two par threes and the rest par fours.)