Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve_ Shaffer on June 23, 2015, 02:13:34 PM
-
Brief but nasty:
http://digitalmag.globalgolfpost.com/20150622?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Chambers%20Bay%20criticism&utm_campaign=Reminder-Tuesday-6-23#&pageSet=24&page=0&contentItem=0
-
I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.
-
Jim Hansen's book says so much and yet leaves much unsaid. I think the entire thing is funny and almost like a cat fight.
Some architectural families have always felt the door should have closed behind them.
Of course neither should have spoken about the course but they did.
-
I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect this kind of public disparagement is a bit out of bounds. Polite criticism yes...media rants no.
I say, the more info the better, but it is incumbent on the media to report potential conflicts. There was a comment from a gentleman who said Player was not chosen to design the course - that should be reported by anyone who chooses to pass along his comments, so it can be put into proper context.
-
I spoke briefly with RTJ Jr. twice over the weekend. His pride in Chambers hosting the US Open was very evident. I'm sure Player's response seemed like a frontal attack, and I give him credit for what in light of all the circumstances was a very measured response.
Player may have been halfway correct in the message he was trying to get across, but he chose his words poorly. It was not a time for hyperbole.
Sven
-
Is this the same Gary Player who once said all courses were good and no architect deserved to have his work criticised?
Great player, not such a great man.
-
I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.
I totally agree
-
I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.
Paul:
Should I not put my thoughts on Diamante (Dunes) in the front of The Confidential Guide, then? Or is it okay as long as I say nothing but positive stuff?
-
I think there is a pretty easy to determine line between being a critic and being an arse. At least, I thought it was pretty easy to determine in this case.
-
I think there is a pretty easy to determine line between being a critic and being an arse. At least, I thought it was pretty easy to determine in this case.
Or that 1000 pushups a day doesn't offset the onset of dimentia
-
Thanks Steve.
Sven, Pride?
-
Think I would have responded more along the lines of
"I agree with Mr. Player about 99%." Sure, if every public golf course was like Chambers Bay, golf might be in trouble. But, one of the beauties of golf is that every course is different. Every client's goal is different, including a few visionary municipalities. In this case, no one is going to travel 500+ miles to play the same course they can get at home. We should celebrate that good golf courses compel golfers to do this.
We should also celebrate that the US Open is played on a public course, and golf is getting more diverse, the US Open is played on a course that is not pristine green, but shades of greens and browns and golf is getting greener (Point of fact, Mr. Player, for all it's 7,900 yards, we irrigation only 70 acres of turf).
Most of all, we should celebrate that all golf courses are different, and that variety that makes golf great, not try to cram it into one little preconceived box."
-
I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.
Paul:
Should I not put my thoughts on Diamante (Dunes) in the front of The Confidential Guide, then? Or is it okay as long as I say nothing but positive stuff?
As a pre-purchaser of the book I look forward to reading your comments. My question to you is will they be your honest thoughts, or will they be laced with hyperbole designed to draw attention to yourself? I believe Mr. Player certainly had a bit of the latter in his interview.
-
I think there is a pretty easy to determine line between being a critic and being an arse. At least, I thought it was pretty easy to determine in this case.
Or that 1000 pushups a day doesn't offset the onset of dimentia
Agreed. The man is Trumplike in his thirst for remaining in the "news". We should only hear from him Thursday morning, first round of the Masters, when he swings the club and kicks his leg up in the air. One on, 364 off.
-
Time to lighten up this Player thread with my lone experience with him, this posted before but will be new to many of you:I've had one GP experience and it was a beaut. 2003 SR PGA Champ at Aronimink, 1st round, I get him, Floyd, and Kite to score for. I had heard that GP could be interesting after a round in the scorers tent, and I was ready. RF had played poorly and was outta there before I could sit down and wasn't interested in triple-checking his score w/ mine. TK was super polite, and after reading off the scores, again thanked me for volunteering. Then GP proceeds to have me read the scores for the front, then the back, then the back again, then the front again, the front in reverse, back in reverse, then from memory he recalls each score himself, etc, etc. TK has decided to stay in the trailer and experience the whole thing. When finally done checking his score every way under creation, GP goes on this long speech to Kite about why he does this relating to being DQed in a GGO round years ago. "So Tom, the last thing I do before leaving the scorer's tent is make darn sure I haven't signed for a wrong score", he says. Then Tom quips, "Well, that is very nice Gary. But I would suggest the last thing you do today before leaving the scorer's tent is zip up your fly". GP had gone to the player's restroom right after the round and had forgotten to zip up. Priceless.
-
I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.
Paul:
Should I not put my thoughts on Diamante (Dunes) in the front of The Confidential Guide, then? Or is it okay as long as I say nothing but positive stuff?
Absolutely put your thoughts in...the good and the bad. That's what I consider constructive criticism. Personally I learn more from good criticism than kind compliments. In the video Player looked like he was off his meds or overdosed. The course design wasn't the issue as much as the USGA set up and maintenance program errors.
...so fire away if you want...this isn't the business for those with thin skin, and I can assure you mine's become rather leather like.
-
Time to lighten up this Player thread with my lone experience with him, this posted before but will be new to many of you:I've had one GP experience and it was a beaut. 2003 SR PGA Champ at Aronimink, 1st round, I get him, Floyd, and Kite to score for. I had heard that GP could be interesting after a round in the scorers tent, and I was ready. RF had played poorly and was outta there before I could sit down and wasn't interested in triple-checking his score w/ mine. TK was super polite, and after reading off the scores, again thanked me for volunteering. Then GP proceeds to have me read the scores for the front, then the back, then the back again, then the front again, the front in reverse, back in reverse, then from memory he recalls each score himself, etc, etc. TK has decided to stay in the trailer and experience the whole thing. When finally done checking his score every way under creation, GP goes on this long speech to Kite about why he does this relating to being DQed in a GGO round years ago. "So Tom, the last thing I do before leaving the scorer's tent is make darn sure I haven't signed for a wrong score", he says. Then Tom quips, "Well, that is very nice Gary. But I would suggest the last thing you do today before leaving the scorer's tent is zip up your fly". GP had gone to the player's restroom right after the round and had forgotten to zip up. Priceless.
Thanks Joe that made my day!
-
Why all the animosity towards Gary Player? Carefully checking a scorecard, even obsessively so, or forgetting to zip a fly, are not character flaws.
With nine major titles, including the 1965 U.S.Open, I reckon Player has earned the right to express an opinion on Chambers Bay. Note that he may have ripped the golf course, but he made no personal attack on Jones, as some of you are now doing to Player, ironically accusing him of a lack of class.
I have met both Jones and Player, and as far as egos are concerned, Player has nothing on Jones.
What’s more, Player in 1983 founded a charity, the Player Foundation, which has donated over $50 million to the support of children's charities. He has contributed much of his own, time, property, and money to provide educational opportuntities to underpriveliged children in South Africa.
Jack Nicklaus named a son in honor of Gary Player, and I trust his judgment more than that of the character assassins on this site.
-
Strong words Steve.
-
::)
Gary's stuff isn't too good . Quirky , but sharp dog legs abound
-
Steve,
My problem with what GP stated is that he forgot to add something... I've done these same things in my own designs and I won't do them any longer. For example, he criticized the length of CB yet his design of the Gary Player Country Club is 7,000 as well... not yards but METERS... I believe that when that is converted to yards it is pretty close in length to CB.
When was the last time he told a potential client that he would only design a course for them if it didn't exceed 6,800 yards from the tips because someone has to take a stand against the manufacturers and governing bodies who have created this distance mess?
He knows far better than most that an architect feeds his family by designing courses based on the parameters set forth by the client and not the architect.
RTJ had nothing to do with either course setup or how the grass has grown in. To condemn his design for these is also wrong in my opinion.
Is CB a top ten course? No. Is it a top 100? possibly. is it a course that can produce a championship worthy of a memorable finish that wil remembered far long past the days of gca.com debates? It already has...
-
My problem with what GP stated is that he forgot to add something... I've done these same things in my own designs and I won't do them any longer. For example, he criticized the length of CB yet his design of the Gary Player Country Club is 7,000 as well... not yards but METERS... I believe that when that is converted to yards it is pretty close in length to CB.
Phil:
To be fair, the Gary Player Country Club at Sun City is at about 6000 feet elevation, so you have to tack on 10% extra distance just to stay even with sea level there. It's a pretty bad course, in my estimation, but it's really not that long, for a course which used to host a tournament every year. [Not sure if it still does.]
P.S. Also, that whole "gotta feed your family" line is commonly used to justify things we're ashamed of. It should have been retired after W.W. II.
-
RTJ had nothing to do with either course setup or how the grass has grown in. To condemn his design for these is also wrong in my opinion.
Hmmmm...i wonder how much he had to do with the design? :)
-
Steve - I don't have a problem with GP as a player or his design organization...some are friends of mine (who were probably cringing a bit). I do have a problem with his 5 minute rant...where he started by saying the designer must have one leg shorter than the other and then blamed the course (and others like this one) for being too long, ruining family togetherness, a 15 handicap would shoot 115, overwatered ??? , said his father was just as bad...blah blah etc. When asked at the end who is to blame, the USGA or the designer?, he said the designer was to blame for this "monster".
Are you sure we watched the same video?
-
.
-
For those who have not seen it here is a link to Gary Player's rant:
http://youtu.be/Ha59iKfjTxw
It's hard to watch.
-
Tom,
Since you don't believe that the GPCC is a fair example due to altitude, lets take another example from his resume of courses, Blair Atholl.
This is what GP wrote in describing the course and is taken directly from the website: "The design, both challenging and rewarding, will allow for the testing of scratch players, yet still ensuring enjoyment for handicapped golfers. The course length is in excess of 7,700 meters (8,500 yards) from the back tees, making it the longest course in South Africa at present."
So this "award winning design" that is some 800 yards longer than CB is not overly long and provides a proper test for the "scratch player" (note scratch not professional which is an interesting choice of words) yet can still ensure enjoyment for handicapped golfers (obviously from different tees) while CB can't? So why have so many on this site written that they enjoyed the rounds that they played there?
My problem with what GP stated was that everything that he went on about he has also done on some of his designs. For example, take a look at the Thracian Cliffs website. Its a wonderfully fun looking course that certainly isn't overly long by any means. But the photographs of several holes show what a few fairways that have a severe can't to them from one side to the other which would certainly create very small areas for some shots to end up regardless of how they are played, which is quite similar to those at CB.
I have no problem with criticisms being leveled at the design or the course set-up, but when he calls it the worst course he has ever seen in his more than 6 decades of play and design and then specifically criticizes it for features that he himself has done, then I feel he should be called out on it.
Mike, I think that addresses your comment in that I'm not challenging his opinion but simply what he based it on.
As for the design I have never been there but from what I've seen of the course on TV I would love to go and play there. That said I believe that the telecast did reveal areas that need softening in the finished product, in particular the fairway entrances and greenside mounding on the holes used as drivable par-4s and reachable in two par-fives as it appeared that one had to hit a perfect shot to get on the green and even then they were unable to get close to the hole for a reasonable chance at eagle. Unfortunately I couldn't decide if that was caused by the set-up, the design or a combination of both.
-
Player is entitled to criticize whatever he chooses (after all, we all criticize one thing or another about golf architecture, equipment, maintenance, etc. right here on this site). And being an architect himself should not disqualify him. On the other hand, there is such a thing as full disclosure and "taste. It should have been made clear that, apparently, he was not selected at Chambers Bay. And that he might have used a constructive tone instead of a condemnatory one. As a "painter," there is plenty of work by "artists" that I find completely insulting to one's intelligence. Up to and including some contemporary 'art" found in the world's finest museums. Many times the average visitor feels immediately compelled to think that they, themselves or even their 5 year old, could easily do the same thing without any trouble. My answer to that is, "they probably could, either one of them." But if I use ridicule and hyperbole in my criticism of another so-called "artist" (regardless of how outrageous his product may be)I look bad as it appears to come from ego instead of objective opinion. I think Player has crossed into that terirtory.
-
Players hit the ball so far these days, the only real defense a golf course has are its greens. So what if someone is aiming 20 feet left or right when they putt. Next time use a wedge and get closer to the hole.
-
Player is entitled to criticize whatever he chooses (after all, we all criticize one thing or another about golf architecture, equipment, maintenance, etc. right here on this site). And being an architect himself should not disqualify him. On the other hand, there is such a thing as full disclosure and "taste. It should have been made clear that, apparently, he was not selected at Chambers Bay.
During the various Twitter exchanges, it was stated by the GP Design Twitter account that they did not bid for Chambers Bay.
-
Like Sun City, Blair Atholl's length is mitigated somewhat by elevation, at 1700+ meters or about a mile high. Besides that, neither Sun City nor Blair Atholl were ever intended as public courses. BA is private and SC is a resort for the well heeled.
-
I had read in prior posts on this discussion that it appeared that GP had a bid. I am glad to learn that GP did not. It makes things better.
On the other hand, as many here are aware, the condition of Chambers Bay was more of a factor than the design, but in the general public mind, the course will probably receive the harshest criticism.
-
Steve,
Regardless of altitude, a 7,700 meter course is beyond reasonably long whether it is available for public play or not. The point is that, in my opinion, GP loses the ability to criticize RTJ for the length of the course as being and being bad for the game if he is also designing courses of a similar magnitude.
I can't say that white is an ugly color for a wall and none should be painted that color if I do it myself...
-
IMHO when it comes to GP and JJ , they are both facilitators and have gotten to the point where the design of a project reflects more on who is working for them than they themselves. It happens with all of the signatures. I like the overall design of CB. I do consider it more manufactured than a Bandon course but I question whether the principal of either firm would have come up with that design. It's not what they do. Michael Miller speaks of painters above and GCA is different from that in this aspect. Painters paint their own paintings. GCA's styles change as associates change. Today Player has a good young guy working for him and naturally he will accept any praise from those projects as will JJ who I understand had JB doing CB. It's all a marketing game with those guys and it's all done trying to catch up with the Oregon, Nebraska and Nova Scotia styles. I would think either of the associates working these projects would be enjoyable to talk with about their projects but a discussion with either principal would not interest me at all.
-
For those who have not seen it here is a link to Gary Player's rant:
http://youtu.be/Ha59iKfjTxw (http://youtu.be/Ha59iKfjTxw)
It's hard to watch.
Thanks for posting this, Mike. It was very hard to watch. Gary Player should be ashamed of himself. Utter nonsense to comment on the length that the pros played the course and make it sound like those were the only tee markers available for the average golfer. Sounded like the ravings of a madman, or an old guy who escaped from "the home." Or a golf course desingener who was not selected for the Olympic course in Brazil and has no clue why. I
-
Mike, good point about the difference between individual painters versus working with associates.
-
I've just watched the video of Players rant. Two things he repeatedly states is how awful it is for a ball to land 1 yard from the right spot but end up 50 yards away, and the other thing is how bad this is for average golfers. Now if the alternative is to miss by 1 yard and end up knee deep in bundi then I suspect joe public would rather be 50 yards away on short grass. I suspect that joe public would also rather watch the pros attempting to scramble from short grass rather than hacking out of deep rough.
Niall
-
...or water Niall. Hit it one yard short on 13 at ANGC and you're reloading with an added stroke. Golf's relative.
-
I resisted the urge to watch this for a while, but Michael made it so easy to just click the link. I threw up in my mouth. If I have to listen to another one of golf's greats lament the game's woes while actively contributing to the problems, I am going to throw my laptop out the window. The hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
Beyond that, and whatever axes he may have to grind, this was an even bigger stunner to me:
He says that the USGA is getting the US Open right at public facilities like Pebble Beach ($500 and 5+ hours to play) and Bethpage Black (a course so hard it has a warning sign), but somehow Chambers Bay is going to send the game over the cliff into the abyss? In what universe does that make sense?
-
A friend who works for the Golf Channel and has played in a couple of Opens sent me a text re this thread....he had two questions !. Do most guys on that site live in their Mom and Dad's basement? and 2. Do they realize all this is just golf? I can't give him an answer right now... ;D ;D but good questions...
-
Mike, is your friend Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds? I know their creative tanks are probably running on empty over there after coming up with gems like Altered Course, but c'mon dude. You can do better than the old "golf dorks taking things too seriously" slam. There's nary a thread on this site that doesn't meet that threshold. It's kind of the point.
-
Jason,
I just relayed his question. As for this particular thread: I view it as no more than two figureheads swordfighting. I'm sure the associates that designed and built the course would be much more interesting to talk with. And could probably shed much light on the subject.
As for other threads, if you view them as anything more than entertainment then you are taking it to seriously.