Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: BHoover on June 17, 2015, 09:12:26 PM
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With Chambers Bay, Erin Hills and LACC on the horizon, which courses that have not yet hosted, or have not hosted in a long time (25-30+ years), will likely host a future U.S. Open?
I heard John Feinstein this evening mention Chicago Golf Club (David Fay would like to see the tournament return there). Would and/or could CGC host a modern U.S. Open?
What other venues are likely or possibilities?
I also have to admit I love West Coast Opens and PGAs because it means prime time golf. I understand it's less ideal for our friends across the Atlantic, but this is the U.S. Open.
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Brian:
Many in the Chicago GCA crowd can chime in, but I'd be shocked -- really, literally -- if Chicago Golf Club ever hosted a U.S. Open.
I think Medinah has a legitimate shot at getting the U.S. Open sometime.
I think The Country Club in Brookline might reconsider its previous opposition.
Oakland Hills is another candidate; hasn't been there since 1996.
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I admit I was rather surprised at the idea of Chicago Golf hosting a future U.S. Open. But I know next to knowing about the course, specifically it's logistical capabilities and the membership's interest in possibly hosting an Open. So it raised my curiosity.
But if Merion could host a modern Open, why not other "smaller" venues? How about Inverness?
I know it's been mentioned here from time to time, how about one of the courses at Bandon?
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When the average age of a membership nears death their is little they can do but serve as a host. Chicago Golf is a lock.
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Can Chicago Golf handle the logistical concerns of a modern U.S. Open? I'm asking because I don't know. Not sure what the age of the membership has to do with hosting an event.
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In the Chicago area, I would consider Butler National a reasonable possibility for an Open, if they ever compromised on the all-male thing.
Cherry Hills is an old Open course which has recently hosted the pros. It seems like a natural fit to go back there.
I can't imagine a place as remote as Bandon hosting a major event like this, as fun as it would be to see the pros take it on
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I admit I was rather surprised at the idea of Chicago Golf hosting a future U.S. Open. But I know next to knowing about the course, specifically it's logistical capabilities and the membership's interest in possibly hosting an Open. So it raised my curiosity.
But if Merion could host a modern Open, why not other "smaller" venues? How about Inverness?
I know it's been mentioned here from time to time, how about one of the courses at Bandon?
The Country Club has a negotiating window with the USGA until October 31 of this year to come to an agreement to host the 2022 US Open. This is not a secret, it has been reported in multiple media outlets. In other words, it will be very surprising if there is not an announcement in the next few months that the Country Club will host that Open.
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A Pete Dye course has never hosted a U.S. Open. What a shame as that door is closing for him to see it. Says a lot about the USGA.
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A Pete Dye course has never hosted a U.S. Open. What a shame as that door is closing for him to see it. Says a lot about the USGA.
His courses have hosted several USGA events.
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A Pete Dye course has never hosted a U.S. Open. What a shame as that door is closing for him to see it. Says a lot about the USGA.
His courses have hosted several USGA events.
What courses haven't? The U.S. Open is the jewel. All the rest are just settings.
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Sebonack wants a men's US Open
CC's new Trinity Forest in Dallas seems to want something bigger than an annual tourney.
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I would love to see it at the renovated Philly Cricket.
Isn't The Donald angling his ass off to try and get a U.S. Open at one of his joints? Any front-runners from his growing portfolio?
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I'm with Neil J here. Butler was literally built to host tournaments. I don't care about the PC'ness of the male only thing. It's a shame the PGA doesn't play there anymore.
I have played a handful of what I call 'big boy' courses as well as a few U.S. Open venues and Butler is the #1 PGA tournament course in the Chicago area. Olympia North is great but in my opinion has no incredibly memorable holes. Medinah is great also but I felt that it was not an incredibly strategic or cerebral journey but rather a test of length (almost 7,700 yards).
I love the idea of having an open at Chicago Golf but at only 6700 yards they would have to trick it out like Merion I'm guessing. I have never played there but would love to.
It is pretty unfortunate though that at least half of the best classic courses (NGLA, Cypress, Fishers, Shoreacres, Newport, Myopia, Scioto, Inverness, Garden City..etc) are too short to host an open. Not that any of them would or could depending on the course but it would be awesome to watch these guys on the classic courses other than.
Maybe the USGA could do a throwback with one of those. I'm not a huge fan of the Torrey Pines and wish they would mix it up more. No reason to go back to the same course within 10-20 years with all the great courses out there.
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When the average age of a membership nears death their is little they can do but serve as a host. Chicago Golf is a lock.
John, You might be surprised how young the average age is now at Chicago Golf- There are a good number of 40-60 yr olds. Not unlike many of our Chicago area clubs. Having just played Butler again last Saturday , my sense is they could hold an Open in a weeks notice. It's that strong- infrastructure, location etc. Medinah is the most likely candidate. CGC is a great Walker Cup venue but the property is very self limiting for an Open. Would be a great venue for a Women's Open. Length of course etc would be perfect for the ladies.
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It is pretty unfortunate though that at least half of the best classic courses (NGLA, Cypress, Fishers, Shoreacres, Newport, Myopia, Scioto, Inverness, Garden City..etc) are too short to host an open. Not that any of them would or could depending on the course but it would be awesome to watch these guys on the classic courses other than.
For what it's worth, Inverness is over 7,300 yards right now and could probably add at least another 100 yards or so if needed. Being too short is not the problem.
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Jack:
I was going to mention Butler, but didn't, assuming the club won't budge on its membership policy. They almost certainly would've hosted a U.S. Open by now, given the USGA's desire to tap into the Chicago market, so my sense is that it will take a substantial change in the membership's view on things to host an Open there. By all reports, it's a worthy candidate on golf architecture/infrastructure merits alone.
John Kavanaugh -- There is an interesting back-story to Whistling Straits (a Dye course) not hosting a U.S. Open that it was angling for, right about this time. Several years ago, WStraits founder Herb Kohler was really pining for the U.S. Open at WS, but -- having hosted the PGA at the course -- also had good connections there with the PGA higher-ups. When the PGA offered him two PGA championships (2010 and 2015) and the Ryder Cup (2020), Herb said it was simply an offer he couldn't refuse. That set back his plans to host the U.S. Open at WS, and the development of Erin Hills has further complicated the matter. If Davis and the USGA view EHills in 2017 as anything remotely close to being successful, I think you'll see the U.S. Open back there (perhaps multiple times) before it ever goes to WStraits.
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I think if/when the USGA overcomes 70 as the minimum par for hosting a championship, more courses previously thought too short could become viable again (logistics/infrastructure notwithstanding). Par fives can be declared par fours and par can be defended a little easier that way. A 6,900-yard par-69 course plays like a 7,500-yard par-72 course. That's long enough.
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I think if/when the USGA overcomes 70 as the minimum par for hosting a championship, more courses previously thought too short could become viable again (logistics/infrastructure notwithstanding). Par fives can be declared par fours and par can be defended a little easier that way. A 6,900-yard par-69 course plays like a 7,500-yard par-72 course. That's long enough.
Great point, Tim. Mike Davis has already indicated that he will change a hole's par during this Open, so it isn't that much of a stretch to see the USGA going further and reducing par below 70. I think that would be excellent.
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Butler won't be an option until the membership issue is changed, but that doesn't look like it is going to happen in the near future. I would think the location and logistics of Chicago Golf wouldn't be a problem but the length of the course would be an issue. The most likely options for a US Open in Chicago right now are Medinah and Olympia Fields. Medinah has the 2019 BMW so I can't imagine another tournament going there for a while. It will be interesting to see how Olympia hold up in the US Ameteur later this year.
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Jack:
I was going to mention Butler, but didn't, assuming the club won't budge on its membership policy. They almost certainly would've hosted a U.S. Open by now, given the USGA's desire to tap into the Chicago market, so my sense is that it will take a substantial change in the membership's view on things to host an Open there. By all reports, it's a worthy candidate on golf architecture/infrastructure merits alone.
John Kavanaugh -- There is an interesting back-story to Whistling Straits (a Dye course) not hosting a U.S. Open that it was angling for, right about this time. Several years ago, WStraits founder Herb Kohler was really pining for the U.S. Open at WS, but -- having hosted the PGA at the course -- also had good connections there with the PGA higher-ups. When the PGA offered him two PGA championships (2010 and 2015) and the Ryder Cup (2020), Herb said it was simply an offer he couldn't refuse. That set back his plans to host the U.S. Open at WS, and the development of Erin Hills has further complicated the matter. If Davis and the USGA view EHills in 2017 as anything remotely close to being successful, I think you'll see the U.S. Open back there (perhaps multiple times) before it ever goes to WStraits.
Everyone knows of the above, what we don't know is what that has to do with Pete Dye.
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Since we seem to be focused on Chicago venues, does anyone know if Conway Farms has made any effort to court the USGA beyond the Mid-Am?
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Will the Ryder Cup be a dress rehearsal for Hazeltine or does the PGA affiliation rule it out?
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Will the Ryder Cup be a dress rehearsal for Hazeltine or does the PGA affiliation rule it out?
I don't think so...Hazeltine seems firmly in the PGA Camp. Not to mention the style and design of the course seems to be 180* from the direction the USGA is going in selecting sites.
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David Fay would like to see the tournament return there
In his old age and retirement, David Fay has lost his damn mind. You would think with his experience he would have some interesting things to say, but he should stop talking/writing for his own good. As with his recent column in GD illustrates, he's no better than the average rube on here speculating on if Bandon Dunes will ever get a US Open.
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David Fay would like to see the tournament return there
In his old age and retirement, David Fay has lost his damn mind. You would think with his experience he would have some interesting things to say, but he should stop talking/writing for his own good. As with his recent column in GD illustrates, he's no better than the average rube on here speculating on if Bandon Dunes will ever get a US Open.
I think that answers my question!
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No one who watched the Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club would propose it host the U. S. Open. The amateurs spanked it - medal scores would have routinely been in the mid 60's.
The Honors Course?
Bogey
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Even at 7500 yards, Cherry Hills is just too short with altitude. A shame really.
I'm not sure of any adequate venue in Colorado long enough. Is CGC suitable?
You pretty much gotta have an 8200 yarder out here.
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U.S. Opens need to be within a reasonable distance of major cities to work well logistically.
In my opinion, I think U.S. Opens are the best when played firm and fast on acclaimed golf clubs like Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Merion, Oakmont, ect. I would love to see a place like Chicago GC or Scioto have an open. Also the U.S. Open returning to the Country Club or Oakland Hills would be great too.
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I love Scioto, but a U.S. Open isn't happening. It's not big enough for logistics, and there's no way to host two professional tournaments in three weeks in Columbus (the Memorial and an Open).
Scioto is hosting the Senior Open next year, however. Should be a great host.
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Even at 7500 yards, Cherry Hills is just too short with altitude. A shame really.
I'm not sure of any adequate venue in Colorado long enough. Is CGC suitable?
You pretty much gotta have an 8200 yarder out here.
After the seniors and ladies were at the Broadmoor recently, there was some talk about what they could do to get the men's open. It involved closing or rerouting Cheyenne Mtn Blvd in order to add length to the course. Haven't heard anything on that front for a while.
I think the USGA would be very cautious about going to Colorado for a men's open. The summer weather patterns and likelihood of lightning delays just make for a lot of disaster scenarios.
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A lot of great courses on this thread! Grew up in Chicago but unfortunately never played CGC. If I had to pick another course in the Chicago area to host I would say Butler or Medinah. I would love to see the USGA go the public course route in Chicago and give one to Cog Hill (#4 Dubsdread) but sadly I fear that the redesign didn't work as planned. I am biased because I grew up caddying at Cog Hill and worked there in the summer until I graduated college. Great golf course, great infrastructure, but somehow I just don't see it working.
Oakland Hills may be a candidate in the near future. They are hosting the Amateur again and that is usually a tune up. They did host it in 2002 though and then shortly thereafter hosted the Ryder Cup and PGA. Great course, great test, exciting holes coming in.
In response to Matt's comment earlier about Inverness, I agree it has the length. I have played there three times in the past year and it has been fantastic. They have the infrastructure on the property (range may be a bit small) but is otherwise great. Whenever I speak to someone about that they seem to think Toledo is currently incapable of hosting due to lack of hotels and other infrastructure. Doesn't really make sense to me given there is a major University (which will be on summer break) when the Open would be in town. Hope they work that out as there is a ton of history there.
Last one is Bellereve. They may be in bed with the PGA right now and it will be fun to see it during the PGA Championship next year.
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"Olympia North is great but in my opinion has no incredibly memorable holes. "
How can the above statement be true? About any course.
In my opinion, this statement is incredibly memorable, for it's complete lack of logic.
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What about French Lick for Pete Dye? I have never been there, but always hear great reviews about the place. Since it has 36 holes, they will have plenty of room for logistics.
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As an Oregonian who lives 3 hours from Bandon, I say this with hope in my heart:
Mike Davis is really high on Bandon and Mike Keiser, and has been from the beginning. . He's already had multiple championships there and just gave Bandon the US Amateur. Don't tell me the Amateur isn't at least a little bit of a dress rehearsal for a slightly larger tournament.
I think that a Mike Davis setup on Trails would be the best host of an Open, I think that Old Mac could also host an Open, but I think the likely winner would be a tricked out Bandon Dunes.
There is enough space on the resort to accommodate all the on-site infrastructure you would need. You might end up closing Trails for the duration of the tournament to make more room as well.
As for the surrounding areas, yes it would be tight, but I think between Bandon, and the North Bend/Coos Bay area, you could do it.
I'll see you at the 2020 Amateur! (*crosses fingers for 2029 US Open at Bandon Dunes*)
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"Olympia North is great but in my opinion has no incredibly memorable holes. "
How can the above statement be true? About any course.
In my opinion, this statement is incredibly memorable, for it's complete lack of logic.
He must not have played 3 or 14.
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Or he might just have a poor memory.
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Mike Davis is really high on Bandon and Mike Keiser,
I think that a Mike Davis setup on Trails ...
I think that Old Mac could ...
I think the likely winner would be a tricked out Bandon Dunes.
There is enough space on the resort ...
Chris, how about a composite course at Bandon? Waltzing Matilda does it for her Open championships. That notion ought to keep the wags of this board busy for a decade or so.
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This is a bit of fantasy, but what about Kinloch? The US Open has had its british phase, how about its masters phase?
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Milwaukee Country Club would be capable but under the radar, I suspect. I also suspect the membership would be opposed but that's only speculation based upon second hand information from a reliable source.
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How about Aronimink?
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As much as I like Bandon there simply are not enough accommodations in Bandon/Coos Bay/North Bend for spectators.
If the US Open is held in Oregon look to Crosswater. Already at 7700 at 4000', it plays to an effective length of 7300. A aerial recon shows that up to 15 holes have room to expand through additional tee boxes. There is certainly enough housing in the area, a resort airport on site and an airport at Redmond that can handle C-5As. Only one green (16) needs a rebuild. They held a senior major there for a number of years and the course wasn't torched (if I remember correctly. Winning scores were -15 to -22.
But thunderstorms could be a problem.
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Does anyone see the irony that any of the great sites mentioned would have to be bastardized to host our National Open?
Madison Square Garden would be a great site for the final 4 if they just blew out a few walls, lengthened the court and raised the ceiling ::) ::) ::)
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and we continue to accept it.
and continue to wonder why the game gets more expensive and longer to play.........
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Mike Davis is really high on Bandon and Mike Keiser,
I think that a Mike Davis setup on Trails ...
I think that Old Mac could ...
I think the likely winner would be a tricked out Bandon Dunes.
There is enough space on the resort ...
Chris, how about a composite course at Bandon? Waltzing Matilda does it for her Open championships. That notion ought to keep the wags of this board busy for a decade or so.
Gotta think like Mike Davis...four courses, four rounds...one day at each, in order of construction, with fingers crossed for a Monday playoff at the Sheep Ranch....
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As much as I like Bandon there simply are not enough accommodations in Bandon/Coos Bay/North Bend for spectators.
How many people can current accommodations hold?
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Just a guess, maybe 2000, certainly no more than 4000. I can think of two large motels in Bandon, maybe five or six in Coos Bay/North Bend, but that includes Motel 6 and Super 8. You can get a better number if you search for motels on line, but I don't have the inclintation.
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Milwaukee Country Club would be capable but under the radar, I suspect. I also suspect the membership would be opposed but that's only speculation based upon second hand information from a reliable source.
Ryan:
I think there are some things that could work in MCC's favor -- a nearby course (Brown Deer) for parking, additional practice areas, a really solid course that could (perhaps) test the pros.
But.....I think you'd have to add another 500 or so yards there, and while there is some room for expansion like that, I'm not sure if there is for length of that sort (maybe close to 8,000 by the time they land it). The course is also somewhat oddly hard to get to -- you'd have to bus in nearly everyone. And do the grounds have the room for a U.S. Open-style corporate tent city? I'm not so sure; it's a somewhat confined course in many ways.
And I don't think there is any way the membership goes for it -- MCC is a really low-key club that, although it has long-standing and strong ties to the USGA, I'm not sure it sees itself as a course that feels obligated to pursue the U.S. Open (in the way that Olympic in San Francisco does by all reports). Another Mid-Am (they hosted in 2008) or perhaps even the U.S. Senior Open could potentially be in the cards, on purely speculative grounds.
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"Olympia North is great but in my opinion has no incredibly memorable holes. "
How can the above statement be true? About any course.
In my opinion, this statement is incredibly memorable, for it's complete lack of logic.
Or maybe he just hasn't read the rules manual for opinions. This ain't calculus folks.
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I love some of the courses that have been suggested in this thread. I see the US Open going back to some old courses from 20 or 30 or 40 years ago but it would probably be in the South such as Southern Hills in Tulsa.
I don't see the pendulum swinging back to old, short courses like Merion or Medinah. There is not really any new courses that could host a US Open as Sebonack, while new, has better neighbors. The USGA would love to have a US Open in Texas and perhaps Trinity Forest could be in the running. I also don't see them going back to Oakland Hills either.
Bandon is out because it is not near a big city. I would like to see Whistling Straits host a US Open but that would be far off and Erin Hills would have to flop like Bethpage Black did. I think the US Open will end up with 15 courses that rotate.
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Riveria not in the running, or is Kikuyu too much of a stretch.
Whats with San Fran? If LACC has been dragged kicking and screaming to host, then would they?
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I don't see the pendulum swinging back to old, short courses like Merion or Medinah.
Isn't Medinah 7,600+ yards?
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I would like to see Whistling Straits host a US Open but that would be far off and Erin Hills would have to flop like Bethpage Black did. I think the US Open will end up with 15 courses that rotate.
Can you explain the Bethpage flop? Flop as in fail, or as in switch to the PGA in affiliation?
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I love some of the courses that have been suggested in this thread. I see the US Open going back to some old courses from 20 or 30 or 40 years ago but it would probably be in the South such as Southern Hills in Tulsa.
I don't see the pendulum swinging back to old, short courses like Merion or Medinah.
There is little that is short about Medinah, and it can be extended in several places:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53660.0.html
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Brookside CC, Canton OH....will never happen, no infrastructure, 100,000 population...but grow a tiny bit of rough and it would be a formidable test.
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Brookside CC, Canton OH....will never happen, no infrastructure, 100,000 population...but grow a tiny bit of rough and it would be a formidable test.
The exact location of the course is less important than the geographic region where it's held, and a U.S. Open in Canton would draw from all over the northeastern Ohio area, given it hasn't had a major there in a very long time. Whether Brookside can handle the infrastructure -- others here would know better.
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Brookside CC, Canton OH....will never happen, no infrastructure, 100,000 population...but grow a tiny bit of rough and it would be a formidable test.
The exact location of the course is less important than the geographic region where it's held, and a U.S. Open in Canton would draw from all over the northeastern Ohio area, given it hasn't had a major there in a very long time. Whether Brookside can handle the infrastructure -- others here would know better.
Pretty far from Cleveland, roads to the freeways not good for travel, not sure they would have enough hotel rooms, however Ohio is overdue for an US Open. Double Eagle and The Golf Club would be great but those pesky regulations about inclusion would rule them out.
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How about Aronimink?
With the AT&T a few years in the rear-view mirror, and the 2018 BMW Championship on the horizon, it’s no secret that Aronimink is positioning itself as “Major” worthy. It’s also no secret that when it comes to the Open in Philadelphia, there are only three courses that seem to matter to the USGA: Merion (East), Merion (East), and Merion (East).
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This seems to bring up another key question: should the USGA seek to bring the U.S. Open to places where it hasn't been? I think the Sea-Tac area is big enough to be worthy of hosting on an occasional basis, but Canton, OH? When there's already a strong annual event in nearby Akron? Seems doubtful.
Same with Bandon - in all honesty I think that's a pipe dream. Maybe in thirty or forty years, when/if that area is a lot more populated/has better infrastructure, but not anytime remotely soon, if ever.
Besides, if the USGA were really serious about bringing the US Open to new sites in a democratic fashion, wouldn't/shouldn't they be willing to try and move it around on the schedule in order to hold it in Florida or Texas every so often, too?
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Because it's my favorite course, I wouldn't want the USGA getting its tentacles on Canton Brookside.
I understand that the modern Open (much like a military campaign) requires logistics. But why should logistics and the size of the metro area matter more than whether a course is worthy of hosting a tournament? Unfortunately, in my opinion, it seems to be the case that the USGA is more concerned with taking the Open to an area more than taking it to a particular course.
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This seems to bring up another key question: should the USGA seek to bring the U.S. Open to places where it hasn't been? I think the Sea-Tac area is big enough to be worthy of hosting on an occasional basis, but Canton, OH? When there's already a strong annual event in nearby Akron? Seems doubtful.
Besides, if the USGA were really serious about bringing the US Open to new sites in a democratic fashion, wouldn't/shouldn't they be willing to try and move it around on the schedule in order to hold it in Florida or Texas every so often, too?
Tim:
The USGA doesn't really care about where the PGA Tour puts its tournaments -- you can find plenty of U.S. Open sites in past years in the same metro area that holds PGA Tour stops regularly. Focus less on Canton proper and more so northeastern Ohio (bias alert: I grew up there), and you have a region that I'd argue would attend and support a U.S. Open in droves.
In addition, the USGA is keen on rotating its signature championship to various regions around the country -- it's exactly why Chambers Bay was selected to host this year's Open; the blue coats think the good folks of the Northwest ought to be able to see and host their biggest tournament (helps w/ corporate sponsorship as well). I think, however, their June schedule hurts the chances of Texas and esp. Florida site hosting -- it hasn't been to Texas since Champions in 1969, and I don't believe the championship has ever been in Florida.
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Because it's my favorite course, I wouldn't want the USGA getting its tentacles on Canton Brookside.
I understand that the modern Open (much like a military campaign) requires logistics. But why should logistics and the size of the metro area matter more than whether a course is worthy of hosting a tournament? Unfortunately, in my opinion, it seems to be the case that the USGA is more concerned with taking the Open to an area more than taking it to a particular course.
My understanding is that the USGA makes a lot of money on the US Open, and loses a lot on every other championship it hosts. So logistics and fan experience ostensibly have to win out (even though it seems the fan experience wasn't overly positive at Chambers Bay). And because the USGA manipulates existing courses for the tournament anyway, that widens the field of potential Open venues, if anything.
Which is why the USGA ought to consider building a couple tailor-made US Open venues in markets where there's a need. It's not exactly a great environment for new golf courses, but I imagine the USGA would have little trouble getting people to plunk down $200 to play a guaranteed future U.S. Open site near, say, Denver, if they want to bring it there but Cherry Hills is too short and Colorado GC is otherwise unsuitable.
Phil--
I take you at your word about NE OH, for sure - I imagine a U.S. Open would be very successful there. Where should/could it legitimately be held? Firestone? I found a Brookside scorecard online listing 7,155 as the tips yardage, par 71. Knock 3 (518) and 18 (529) down to par fours and you have a par of 69 that would probably be defended pretty well.
If the "good folks of the Northwest ought to be able to see and host [the USGA's] biggest tournament," then the good folks in major metro areas like Orlando, Houston, Dallas and Phoenix deserve the USGA's consideration, too. As huge a hotbed of golf as Florida is, it's bizarre at the very least that the USGA hasn't found a way to make a US Open happen down here. Why not move it from Father's Day weekend to Columbus Day weekend in a non-Ryder Cup year? Or extend the Florida Swing by a week and hold it in March right after the clocks spring forward? Or is it mandatory that the Masters be the first major every year, no matter what?
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[/size]Does the US Tennis Association get pressure to move their own US Open all over the country? If they do, they certainly haven't caved to it.[/color]
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I don't think there's any course in NE Ohio capable of holding a modern US Open. I don't even know that there's any course in Ohio that would fit the bill--maybe Inverness, but even it may have been seen its final major.
There surely are great venues for Senior Opens, Women's Opens, etc., such as Inverness, Canterbury, Scioto (and probably a few others). But I don't know that a modern Open or PGA will be returning to Ohio anytime soon if only because I don't think any course currently has the length, let alone meet the logistical demands, of a modern major championship. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality.
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Let's think about the likely "regular" venues (every 10 years):
Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pinehurst
Likely "occasional" venues (every 15 years):
Torrey Pines, Winged Foot, Congressional, Chambers Bay(?), Olympic, Southern Hills, Erin Hills(?)
Less frequent venues (more than 15 years):
Merion, LACC, The Country Club
Potential future venues:
Olympia Fields, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Medinah, Bethpage, Aronimink
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Why think small? Expand Northerly Island just south of Chicago's downtown from it's present 91 acres to 600 plus acres. Sand cap it and create one smaller course (with lowish green fee) and a championship course for the permanent home of the Western/BMW Championship and US Open every 15 years. Leftover land will be parks and beaches. Have McPier own it so everyone can get their beak wet. What do we need? A law in Springfield allowing it - infill is state property. Get the other states in the Great Lakes Compact to sign off on it. Issue a few bonds, do environmental impact statement (new natural area with bushes to appease the birders, tie into city water and sewer for water quality).
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Which is why the USGA ought to consider building a couple tailor-made US Open venues in markets where there's a need. It's not exactly a great environment for new golf courses, but I imagine the USGA would have little trouble getting people to plunk down $200 to play a guaranteed future U.S. Open site near, say, Denver, if they want to bring it there but Cherry Hills is too short and Colorado GC is otherwise unsuitable.
I think that's what they've essentially done at Chambers Bay and Erin Hills -- two courses probably re-worked more by the USGA than any other U.S. Open site (and you can maybe add in BBlack as well).
I've long (well, for the past few years or so) wondered whether the USGA has boxed itself in here with its decision to avoid the technology arms race and yet move its major money-making tournament around the country. It's pretty clear that, under Davis, any course that hosts the Open has to be open to being disfigured altered renovated to his annual whims, and it's a pretty stout old-line, classic-era course (TCC, Merion, Olympia) that's willing to do that AND is situated in a place where the USGA wants to go and has the surrounding infrastructure to handle the zoo-like conditions of hosting that thing.
There are maybe a small handful of courses -- Shinnecock and Oakmont come to mind -- that are so good and tough that you don't need radical surgery to get them in US Open shape; like Brian, I agree those are courses that are part of a permanent U.S. Open rotation. But I've got to think that at some point, this all just gets out of hand, and the USGA somehow funds or helps legitimize (like they did at Erin Hills, and really with CBay) distinct courses that are "U.S. Open" courses ala the PGA's "stadium" course attempts several years ago.
And on another note, I'm pretty sure Mike Davis does not care about the fan experience on the ground of the US Open. I'm pretty sure he cares a lot about raking in prime-time ratings for a championship with a crazy ending, and maybe a bit about the green conditions. The Open will be back at CBay, rest assured.
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Let's think about the likely "regular" venues (every 10 years):
Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pinehurst
Likely "occasional" venues (every 15 years):
Torrey Pines, Winged Foot, Congressional, Chambers Bay(?), Olympic, Southern Hills, Erin Hills(?)
Less frequent venues (more than 15 years):
Merion, LACC, The Country Club
Potential future venues:
Olympia Fields, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Medinah, Bethpage, Aronimink
This looks fairly accurate, though I could see many of the "occasional" venues moving to less frequent as the number of courses in the Rota increases.
I'd add Olympic to the "occasionals" to the Bay area once in a while, as well as potentially Riviera to "potential futures" (this is based on nothing more than a friendly rivalry with LACC and the ability to host what would be a great Open in a major city).
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Alex, what venues do you think could or would be added to the Open rota?
I suppose another factor is whether the membership at a particular course continues to support hosting an Open. It seems that Oakmont's membership has no such qualms, but what about those at places such as Winged Foot and Shinnecock? I have no inside information, I'm merely speculating. But weren't the members at those clubs apparently less-than-thrilled with the USGA in 2004 and 2006?
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Brian - Firestone could host an Open but it already hosts an annual tour event.
Northeast Ohio won't ever get an Open as it would just compete with the Bridgestone Invitational and take dollars away from the charities for that event. Even the Open at Oakmont (1:30 away) hurts the Bridgestone.
If Firestone wasn't an issue, I agree with Brian that no course could host the Open in northeast Ohio. The pros would eat up the great courses in the area.
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Par was 69 at Philadelphia CC. Also the last hole was a par 5 like this year.
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I would love to see it at the renovated Philly Cricket.
Isn't The Donald angling his ass off to try and get a U.S. Open at one of his joints? Any front-runners from his growing portfolio?
They might have to re-configure the routing b/c where would you put grandstands around 18? But I'd love to see PCC host a major. Phenomenal job there by Foster.
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Let's think about the likely "regular" venues (every 10 years):
Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pinehurst
Likely "occasional" venues (every 15 years):
Torrey Pines, Winged Foot, Congressional, Chambers Bay(?), Olympic, Southern Hills, Erin Hills(?)
Less frequent venues (more than 15 years):
Merion, LACC, The Country Club
Potential future venues:
Olympia Fields, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Medinah, Bethpage, Aronimink
1) I don't think Shinny will be an every-ten-year thing, because it is private, still vaguely hard to get, and in an area crowded with good courses, But if BPB stays a "PGA" course, that might be possible.
2) I think Ferry Point would have been on this list a month ago, and still will join it if Trump ever gives up management (or possibly when he retires).
3) On a similar note, any urban-accessible major public courses will get more opportunities than others. Expect to see Torrey, Chambers Bay, Erin Hills, and Pinehurst more frequently than you might expect.
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You could very well be correct. My list was only an attempt to compile what seems to be likely future venues. I welcome any difference of opinion of course.
As for Shinnecock, it may have difficult logistics, but it sure seems like the type of venue the USGA is likely to visit fairly regularly. Maybe not exactly every 10 years but I believe it will be in the rota as long as the members want to host the Open.
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As for Shinnecock, it may have difficult logistics, but it sure seems like the type of venue the USGA is likely to visit fairly regularly. Maybe not exactly every 10 years but I believe it will be in the rota as long as the members want to host the Open.
This is correct.
It's been (or will be once we hit 2018; they probably would've hosted slightly earlier than that save for the inclusion of the Chambers Bay/Erin Hills experiments) held there four times since 1986 -- or roughly once every 10 years for nearly half a century -- that's about as "rota" as the USGA is going to get. Whether technology bypasses this course by 2028 is another question.
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I would like the USGA to establish a rota of Torrey Pines, Chambers Bay, Erin Hills and Bethpage Black and then keep their hands off the rest of the courses in the country.
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I would like the USGA to establish a rota of Torrey Pines, Chambers Bay, Erin Hills and Bethpage Black and then keep their hands off the rest of the courses in the country.
You know, David, that isn't the worst idea I've ever heard.
BTW, did the USGA do much fiddling the last time Oakmont held the U.S. Open? I'd be fine if it was held there every year.
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I don't think there's any course in NE Ohio capable of holding a modern US Open. I don't even know that there's any course in Ohio that would fit the bill--maybe Inverness, but even it may have been seen its final major.
There surely are great venues for Senior Opens, Women's Opens, etc., such as Inverness, Canterbury, Scioto (and probably a few others). But I don't know that a modern Open or PGA will be returning to Ohio anytime soon if only because I don't think any course currently has the length, let alone meet the logistical demands, of a modern major championship. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality.
Brookside could clearly hold an open, Sand Ridge could also but getting in and out of there would be a nightmare and it isn't as great as Brookside but could be made to play tough enough.
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I'd add Olympic to the "occasionals" to the Bay area once in a while, as well as potentially Riviera to "potential futures" (this is based on nothing more than a friendly rivalry with LACC and the ability to host what would be a great Open in a major city).
Alex,
With the incredible ratings that the USGA gets when they're on the west coast, I'd fully expect Olympic to be an every 10 to 15 year course , and LACC and Torrey to alternate opens in Southern California. The USGA was very high on how that event was run.
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Done deal. USGA will announce today...
2022: TCC
2023: LACC North
2024: Pinehurst No. 2
http://espn.go.com/boston/golf/story/_/id/13299567/brookline-2022-la-north-2023-pinehurst-no-2-2024 (http://espn.go.com/boston/golf/story/_/id/13299567/brookline-2022-la-north-2023-pinehurst-no-2-2024)
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/07/22/the-country-club-set-host-open/xbRYS3Ps1hur4qdloMvHLL/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/07/22/the-country-club-set-host-open/xbRYS3Ps1hur4qdloMvHLL/story.html)
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-us-open-la-20150722-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-us-open-la-20150722-story.html)
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/ginella-reports-us-open-pinehurst-no-2-2024/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/ginella-reports-us-open-pinehurst-no-2-2024/)
http://www.thepilot.com/news/exclusive-usga-announces-pinehurst-for-open/article_fbfb772a-2fd2-11e5-a881-6bef649ce9c5.html (http://www.thepilot.com/news/exclusive-usga-announces-pinehurst-for-open/article_fbfb772a-2fd2-11e5-a881-6bef649ce9c5.html)
http://www.fayobserver.com/blogs/sports/and-your-u-s-open-winner-at-pinehurst-is/article_b83c63f2-307a-11e5-b857-ff8459e6a31c.html (http://www.fayobserver.com/blogs/sports/and-your-u-s-open-winner-at-pinehurst-is/article_b83c63f2-307a-11e5-b857-ff8459e6a31c.html)
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I meant to post this here instead of the 2022 Open thread, as it seems more appropriate here.
So the U.S. Open is set through 2024 (with Torrey Pines in 2021, TCC in 2022, LACC in 2023, and Pinehurst in 2024).
I'll be curious where they go in 2025. It will have been 8 years since a non-East or West coast Open (Erin Hills in 2017). I'll guess that the USGA goes to a place like Southern Hills, Oakland Hills, Olympia Fields, etc) in 2025. Just a guess.
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USGA press release:
http://www.usga.org/articles/2015/07/usga-announces-2022--2023-and-2024-u-s--open-sites.html (http://www.usga.org/articles/2015/07/usga-announces-2022--2023-and-2024-u-s--open-sites.html)
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Oops, I started a new thread when the info was already covered. My bad.
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A decade ago Pumpkin Ridge was in the discussion as a US Open course. And after really successful women's opens and the 96 amateur, the USGA seemed to love them. Think there's any chance that they'd consider heading back to the Pacific Northwest to do an Open there one day?
It might not be long enough to qualify these days, but when you grow the rough out there, it can be a downright brutal test. And it's certainly a better layout for spectators and facilities than Chambers...
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Oops, I started a new thread when the info was already covered. My bad.
Come on Joe--pay attention. Have you been hanging out in Italian restaurant bars again?
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"Olympia North is great but in my opinion has no incredibly memorable holes. "
How can the above statement be true? About any course.
In my opinion, this statement is incredibly memorable, for it's complete lack of logic.
Paul- Did not mean to offend. I have never had the chance to play Olympia with someone who knows it. I believe I have played 3x as an unaccompanied guest and it really does make a difference when you aren't with someone who can explain the history and nuances to you. Now that I think of it there really are some great par 3s and a few other par 4s that come to mind.
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Declan,
Let's correct that issue this summer. It has a terrific routing that builds to a crescendo with the final five-hole stretch carved on an amazing piece of property that gets the most out of elevation changes and a meandering creek. IMHO, Olympia has a handful of unforgettable holes, a handful of very good holes and only a few ho-hum holes. The unforgettables: 3, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18. The very good holes: 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 17. Ho-hum: 5, 6, 13.
I'm not crazy about 5 because it's crazy narrow, but the bunkering is great and the green is a lot of fun to putt. 6 was redone in a rather boring fashion, I think, and it could be greatly improved. 13 is a short par-3 with a wacky green, but it is the real link in the routing because the course is all about getting to the 14th tee and 13 is a great connector on a piece of land that many architects may have ignored entirely.
One of the issues that OFCC had with hosting the US Open is that there aren't really any holes where a pro would stand on the tee and think that he could make a double if not careful. It isn't intimidating to the regular tour players, while still being plenty of a challenge. Let's not forget that all but four players in the '03 Open were over par for the week.
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Thanks Terry. Would love to get out there with you.
Where do things stand with the relationship between USGA and OFCC these days?
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Well we know 2025 is Shinnecock and 2026 is Oakmont.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63137.msg1503787.html#msg1503787
Where for 2027? Trinity Forest could be a good one.
What about Chambers Bay or Olympic Club or back to Erin Hills (depends on how it does this year)
It all depends if they want to go back to the west coast after a three year absence.
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Thanks Terry. Would love to get out there with you.
Where do things stand with the relationship between USGA and OFCC these days?
I think it's pretty good, given that OFCChosted a very successful US Amateur last year. Not sure if that gains them any ground for another US Open, but I'm hopin'.
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Well we know 2025 is Shinnecock and 2026 is Oakmont.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63137.msg1503787.html#msg1503787 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63137.msg1503787.html#msg1503787)
Where for 2027? Trinity Forest could be a good one.
What about Chambers Bay or Olympic Club or back to Erin Hills (depends on how it does this year)
I think you have the venues reversed for 2025 and 2026.
Since I hold guru status on future U.S. Open sites ;) I'd narrow it down to 3 finalists: Olympic, Torrey, and Southern Hills (I won't quit you!)
Bonus - we'll be headed back to Merion in 2030 for the anniversary of Bobby Jones' slam. Book it.
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Stonewall would be a great Philly site. I haven't read any of this thread so I hope I'm not repeating.
It's a top notch course and can handle a big tournament.
It's a modern Philly classic.
I guess the MidAm was a test and I imagine it passed
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What about Chambers Bay....
If the Fourball goes well, there is a chance. There are some logistics involving the mounding/spectator viewing that they need to figure out.