Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on May 28, 2015, 06:15:24 AM
-
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53263572948_6e4e003f9b_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53263572948_6e4e003f9b_b.jpg)
No mention of Dornoch should be made without first paying respects to John Sutherland. He joined the club as a teenager and was appointed Secretary while still a teenager. Most club members owe a great debt to a prominent gentleman or two whose strength of character and dogged perseverance served as the foundation for a successful club. Royal Dornoch is no exception and indeed may owe an even larger debt for the legacy of John Sutherland. Being the secretary of the club for nearly 60 years, his death in 1941 must have been a severe blow to club and town. It is impossible to underestimate the influence and skill of John Sutherland. He oversaw the transition of a sleepy Scottish club into one of the most famed and "royal" in the world. Sutherland was partly able to profile the town and links via his position as a writer for Golf Illustrated and the London Daily News. Some were convinced to make the journey north to sample the highly reputed links of (newly minted) Royal Dornoch and these included the influential Ernest Holderness and Joyce and Roger Wethered. The Great Triumvirate also made their way to Dornoch for an exhibition match in 1906. Fittingly Braid won with two scores of 75 and in a letter written to the Captain of the club he stated “You have indeed got a fine course up there at Dornoch. I should think the finest in Scotland.”
Let us not forget in addition to his talents as an architect and administrator, Mr Sutherland could play the game. He won the club’s Silver Medal on 11 occasions. Yet Sutherland had keen competition as the best architect to come from Dornoch; of course I write of Donald Ross. It wasn’t long after Sutherland took up the position of Secretary that he could see there was something about the young keeper of the green and Sutherland encouraged Ross to seek the tutelage of Old Tom Morris. The rest of the story is well known....
However, in the case of Dornoch, Sutherland's sway held supreme as the only input to the course made by Ross was to the 1st in 1921 At the same time Sutherland gave us the 2nd. Due to the Royal Airforce commandeering the final six holes of the Ladies Course (now called the Struie), after WWII the club decided to push northward for five holes; and thus was created a very fine stretch of golf which commences with the monster 7th and ends with the great par four 11th. The 13th was also a new hole as was the 6th which used to play to the current 11th green. Robbie Grant, the Greenkeeper and 1920 Open champion, George Duncan, oversaw the changes which were unveiled in 1948. One can only wonder if and how the course may differ today if Sutherland were alive to oversee the major changes after WWII. Be that as it may, Dornoch is very special and commands a unique place in the history of Scottish golf; which is remarkable considering only one major has been staged on the links, the 1985 Amateur. The lack of hosting major events is surely due to Dornoch’s location a scant eight degrees south of the Arctic Circle and hard on Embo Bay. Even if the links isn’t the most difficult of tests, the majesty of the setting and thrill of the golf is quite enough to satisfy all who care about such matters. Testament to this fact is clear when one considers the popularity of the Carnegie Shield, an event held every summer. 2013 marked the 100th playing of the tournament. The namesake of the grand silver trophy is indeed the Andrew Carnegie, whose generosity knew no bounds. It is thought that in the last two decades of his life he donated $350 million...that is the equivalent to over $8 billion in today's money!
The course follows a lazy S pattern along the shore and can be fairly called a classic out and back design. It is also fair to say Dornoch's opener is gentle, yet this should not convey the idea the hole lacks interest.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780954316_7a59b53fde_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780954316_7a59b53fde_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955976_64760cca30_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955976_64760cca30_b.jpg)
Many will stand on the 2nd tee and not notice the bank of gorse to the right for the frightening sight of the turtleback green fronted by bunkers. For the most part the evil weed is under control, but there is a glaring issue here and on #17. This is one of those holes where a good shot is great and average shot can be awful. It isn't a bad play to be short of the green where the most amount of space is available for recovery. The general theme of the upturned saucer green will be oft repeated throughout the round.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53233342497_cdebc705a5_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53233342497_cdebc705a5_b.jpg)
Despite the compelling nature of the first two holes, some may wonder what all the fuss is about. Once clearing the whins on the way to the third tee the world opens up first with a view of the 17th green then with much of the links spread tantalizing below.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53234210456_10704ea104_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53234210456_10704ea104_b.jpg)
Playing the 3rd is nearly as wonderful as the view....this is just another ho hum superb hole in the collection of Dornoch gems.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119428484_04f333c765_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119428484_04f333c765_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119431194_cfcf38e0ae_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119431194_cfcf38e0ae_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
-
Sean,
Stop teasing us and post more photos!
Regarding the journey and the remote location, one thing always jumps out of the clubs history to me as a Notts member: Tom Williamson, the long standing pro at Notts and man probably most responsible for Hollinwell today, was asked to visit Dornoch in 1945 to suggest improvements (the RDGC captain at the time was also a Notts member) but due to the length of journey and his old age, he declined the invitation.
Cheers,
James
-
Sean -
I believe this was your first visit to Dornoch since the 3rd hole was altered over the 2013-14 winter. Did the hole look or play any different for you?
DT
-
Boony
That is very interesting concerning T Williamson!
David
Its hard to tell the difference with #3 unless one is well versed in all things Dornoch. If anything, it felt like there was less room down the left, but I could well be wrong.
DORNOCH CONT
There is an element of deja vu with holes 3 through 5 having perched tees and swinging left, but all three greens are very different even if raised. The 4th is the best of the three.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119428374_5075f685bc_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119428374_5075f685bc_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119431134_68262e969b_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119431134_68262e969b_b.jpg)
I appreciate the aesthetics of the tee shot for #5 more than the previous two holes. I don't get to Dornoch nearly as often as I should, but this green always surprises me in how large it is. From the fairway I always imagine a small target.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955556_762331fe2e_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955556_762331fe2e_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955656_2dca1709c4_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955656_2dca1709c4_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37571440230_1583c19b13_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37571440230_1583c19b13_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
-
Dornoch tour cont
The 6th is a prime example of how much run-away there is to several of Dornoch's greens. This short hole is tough!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780953796_686fbecdd5_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780953796_686fbecdd5_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53233342287_82271b0bf9_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53233342287_82271b0bf9_b.jpg)
Built on land that was obtained in the 1940s, the 7th was smartly moved right to smartly take advantage of the views. The green is a close copy of the original and remains the highlight of the hole. At a whopping 464 yards, its still a bit of a charmless hole and perhaps the least engaging of the newest holes.
With the 7th being moved, this allowed the club to shift the 8th. It is now a bit of a dogleg right, joining Foxy as the only legger right. The hole drops perhaps 35 feet once the fairway eases from sight. I don't believe the interesting puncbowl green was altered.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955416_c90c84b0b1_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955416_c90c84b0b1_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119428124_40fac1d834_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119428124_40fac1d834_b.jpg)
The repetitive nature of the greenside bunkers becomes quite obvious by the time we reach the 9th green. There is a load of front right/left variation in play. Still, the 9th is solid par 5 featuring a heaving humpty bumpty fairway that most lovers of links long to see. Coincidentally, this is exactly the sort of terrain which Castle Stuart doesn't have.
More to follow.
Ciao
-
"Coincidentally, this is exactly the sort of terrain which Castle Stuart doesn't have."
Agreed, Sean. On a trip two years ago that included TOC, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Castle Stuart, and Royal Dornoch, our group was unanimous that Royal Dornoch was our favorite. I really loved Castle Stuart, but playing Royal Dornoch the day after Castle Stuart I noticed, as you mentioned above, that Castle Stuart was lacking the "humpty bumpty" fairways that RD has. What a treat to hit your tee shot over the hill on #8, then find a wildly undulating fairway waiting for you! Those little nuances pushed the golf course to the top of my list.
That back corner of the golf course (#8, #9, and #10) is simply a beautiful spot. During our afternoon round, we were almost literally the only ones on the golf course. Walking off the ninth green and spotting a rainbow over the North Sea, we hung out for a good ten minutes and realized that just might be the neatest spot on a golf course we'll ever be. And what a great golf course! I can't imagine going back to Scotland and not finding my way back to RD, difficult as it may be.
-
Dornoch in May is such a beautiful place with the gross in bloom.
I can't agree with your assessment of #7. Yes, it is a long hole... but, it offers a completely different challenge than the par fours just played... and clears the palate for the blind tee shot to follow on 8. It is a fantastic transition hole, I think.
-
Whitty
Yes, #7 is very different from the previous (and later holes) and yes, I do think all courses need a serious ball breaker hole of this length. However, I want an opportunity to smile while playing that ball breaker, such as 10 at St Enodoc and Sea Headrig provide....something a bit different to make the walk more than about breaking balls. Dornoch's 7th fails miserably in this regard.
ROYAL DORNOCH CONT
I am not a proponent of downwind/downhill short holes covered by fronting bunkers so the 10th will always struggle to rate highly my book. That said, there are some excellent recovery situations offered and the golfer does need to weigh up his options even if none of them are particularly enticing. I have only seen the hole located at the back of the green once (in my very limited experience of 7 plays over a great many years)...and that day the hole played into a headwind. There is a perverse sort of logic at work here 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119430774_7d5fa5206f_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119430774_7d5fa5206f_b.jpg)
For mine, we now hit Dornoch's best and most varied four hole stretch. The 11th is one of my favourite holes. I think it is usually best to drive up the left, but right offers a decent view of the green. Either way, the approach is superb. My favourite feature (and favourite bunker on the course) of the large green complex is the right side bunker. It slyly eats into the green like no other bunker at Dornoch. This photo is taken from the upper links.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955316_9d01432a5f_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780955316_9d01432a5f_b.jpg)
Superb green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119427984_b6d3e7dbba_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119427984_b6d3e7dbba_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
-
Sean,
I also do not agree about 7. Yes, tee to green it lacks something which could be easily remedied with a bit of shaping but the green is one of the most subtle challenges I have seen and something the course does not have much of. My only real criticism of Dornoch is the par 3s as a collective 3 of the 4 offer an almost identical challenge with the 10th being the only really poor hole on the course.
Jon
-
There's some interesting comments here on a well known course. Looking forward to how Sean ranks it at the end of the tour. In the CG I think the scoring was something like 10 9 10 10 which seems well over the top even as fantastic as the course is.
So far Sean has highlighted the similarity of the right to left par 4's from 3 onwards, his lack of love for the 7th, the repetition of the bunkering and what I would call a lack of lee-way on the 11th green. I wouldn't disagree with any of the comments so far other than to agree with Jon and Mikes love of the 7th green even if the rest of the hole is a bit uninspiring.
One thing Sean hasn't yet mentioned is the abundance of plateau greens which I think is the biggest weakness at Dornoch. Its not only the number of them but the nature of them. If you compare them to Moray Old, the plateau greens at Lossie have a bit of a false front to help with depth perception and there's also fewer of them and they are spread out in the round so that you don't feel they are over done. In comparison the number of plateau greens is overkill and not really as well done even if the internal contouring on some of them is full of interest.
When you take it all into consideration its really just a bit of a dog track with a nice view ;D
Niall
-
Sean,
Thanks very much for this one, Dornoch is my dream destination and course to play. Will make it there someday soon and looking forward to playing this course over and over again.
-
A few observations:
- I am surprised Sean that you consider the gorse a big issue on 2 and 17. You have to hit pretty rank shots for it to come into play. In point of fact, i suspect as many balls are lost on the right of the 16th as either of these - if you are playing into the wind. Overall, i think the manner in which they have opened up the course a bit more/made the gorse less of a factor eg left of 6, right of 7 is a considerable improvement.
- I think there is some deja vu between 3 and 4 although in reality they play very differently on account of such different greens. 4 is obviously a much harder hole, though the changes to 3 have made it a tighter tee shot . The tee on 5 is an order of magnitude higher than the other tees and therefore makes it feel very different. You are right to comment on the size of the hole. What makes it a much harder hole than it might look is the angle of the green. The approach shot from left of centre is much the easiest, but I would guess less than 20% of balls go there. So everyone else is left with a shortish shot in from the wrong angle, and the green is not easy to hit from the right unless you have very good control of distance.
- i think you are a bit hard on 10. What you say is right if downwind, but in my experience the wind in Dornoch splits quite evenly in opposite directions. When i was there earlier this month we played it downwind on the first and then into a 3-4 club wind on the second day.
- on this same point of the wind: almost too obvious to say, but makes an enormous difference. If the wind is behind you going out then you know that 10,11, 14, 16 and 18 are going to be very difficult!
- you are right that there are more right to left shapes than the opposite, but i don't feel holes like 5 and 8 play right to left, anymore than Foxy plays left to right. Even on a hole like 17 you are generally trying to hit a straight tee shot rather than right to left. Generally it feels like the wind probably dominates more than the shape of the hole in determining the shot you hit. Additionally, on holes like 3 and 4, it is not easy to persuade yourself to hit a draw when the worst trouble - gorse - is on the left, and that also affects how these holes play.
Philip
-
One observation I can offer (after playing 250-300 rounds there ;)) is that, depending on the direction of the wind and the pin positions, I often find myself hitting the same club on 3 of the 4 par-3's in a round. A little more variety might be nice.
-
Niall
Just as at Pinehurst, I think the plateau greens are overdone. But also just as at Pinehurst, the greens are the single most famous trait of the course. If you like Dornoch you have to like the greens.
Philip
I disagree about gorse on #2...it is very much in play and not from a poor shot...just a harsh bounce off the green bank. Perhaps my bigger issue is I don't care for gorse except well out of the way or in very small doses. The bloody stuff is a ball eater and releases a chemical which promotes lush grass growth...very bad news for links.
17 is one of those holes which technology has severely compromised. Its dead easy to lose a ball going straight down the middle of the fairway. Such a pity the hole has become such a lay-up proposition.
ROYAL DORNOCH CONT
#12 has a feel which is not like the remainder of the course. The green is raised, but not really of the plateau style such as many others. Of course, the main feature is the left mound some 20 yards or so shy of the green. Its placement leaves just enough space to squeeze in a long approach, yet if one dumps it into the mound the recovery isn't all that bleak.
The walk back for 13 is a bit of a hitch in the "walk in the park" test...well that and the slog uphill 16th. This one-shotter is comfortably the easiest short hole, but decent for that.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119429464_d1ca8f7a2b_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119429464_d1ca8f7a2b_b.jpg)
Foxy needs no comment from me except to say my playing partner wasn't terribly impressed on his first viewing (oh to be so young and foolish ;D ). The hole was cut far right which considerably reduces the length of the hole.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119427884_f1c2f2958e_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119427884_f1c2f2958e_b.jpg)
In the photo below the three plateaux fingers poking their way into play from the right is quite evident.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780954476_ccaf3ec9a4_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37780954476_ccaf3ec9a4_b.jpg)
The last finger is the immense green. One gets a sense of yardage difference between left and right. The red flag can just be made out against the backdrop of the highest section of gorse.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119429334_dee90de0ed_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119429334_dee90de0ed_b.jpg)
A look at the green from near 15 tee.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53234583499_be9c487b4e_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53234583499_be9c487b4e_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
-
That pin on Foxy is a 1 in 25 rounds affair, if that.
On 12 that mound left and short is a formidable defence. You have to be Rory Mcilroy to fly it and still hold the green if you are coming in from any distance. You also see a lot of three putts on that green. Overall the hole tends to play a bit harder than you might expect.
-
Philip
Yes, I gather the hole location is rarely right...first time for me, but it does open ones eyes to the diversity of this great, great hole.
ROYAL DORNOCH CONT.
This recent visit saw a change of heart for 15. Playing into a good wind, the huge mound in the fairway is a serious feature to contend with. However, my low opinion of 16 remains steadfast. It is an uphill slog to a dull green with dopey mounds on the right wing. The hole screams out that the archie ran out of room. Luckily, the very fine 17th beckons. The green is a wonder to behold when on the crest of the downslope to the lower fairway. However, not all is roses, the gorse, seen and unseen, creates an unnecessary clausterphobic feeling and a situation where balls can be lost rather easily from the blind tee shot. The approach.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53233342027_3047392dc7_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53233342027_3047392dc7_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119429284_caf78ab2cf_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/37119429284_caf78ab2cf_b.jpg)
I prefer the easy touch coming home, so the tough, uncompromising 18th is not an easy hole to venerate. Yet, there is some compelling land for the approach and the green is superlative. I wonder if any thought was given to finishing at the practice green to create a par 5? It looks like there are plans afoot to move the house closer to the green which if done well, will be a positive change.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53234709685_defb0afd3a_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53234709685_defb0afd3a_b.jpg)
The humpty bumpty fairways, magnificent setting, great walk, exceptional condition of the rough, excellent changes on 7 & 8 and interesting greens make it difficult to question the greatness of Dornoch, but it isn't without shortcomings which I noticed in glaring fashion during this trip. Darn if I can explain it, but Dornoch is more about the majestic experience and shouldn't be over-scrutinised. Even so, it is difficult to arrive at any other conclusion other than Dornoch is a great course. 1* 2023
Ciao
-
Sean,
it is a shame that the gorse has encroached again especially on 17. About 10 years ago the club stripped back the gorse along the right side of the lower fairway opening it up much more. The gorse from just short of the green was completely removed meaning as you ascended the last few yards on the green the entire seaward panorama opened up to the golfer, most exhilarating!!!
Jon
-
Sean
I agree about the plateau greens, they are what they are and that's the character of the course. I can't agree with you though on the course losing it's way after 14, for my money it loses it way after 13 ;). Foxy seems to me to be a good bit over rated even if it is one of those unusual and iconic holes. It's interesting what you say about the 16th as it seems to me that Mark Parsinen based the 12th at CS on it which is one of my favourite holes there even if it is a bit of a plateau green.
So 1* on the Arble scale. What would you give it on the Doak scale ?
Niall
-
Jon
I don't think it would take much gorse removal to make 17 more attractive. In any case, I would start with #2!
Niall...its hard to take a man seriously when he doesn't kowtow to the obvious greatness of Foxy ;)
I don't care for the 12th at Castle Stuart...for my money its the worst hole on the course...as is 16 at Dornoch...by some distance.
I think Dornoch is between a 7 and a 8...so in Doak fashion I give it a 8...good enough to make my current top 10 in GB&I (it moved up quite a few spots after this play).
Ciao
-
Link to further imagery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NkMW1ubkMk
Tough pin on Foxy (8:50), looks to be the same pin as Sean's pic.
-
I too love Dornoch and need to get back there as it's been a few years. I also played it together with Castle Stuart in the first full season it opened and in March or April. I preferred Dornoch but don't disagree with your assessment really. I think a lot of the wow factor hits you on the second hole when you look out on what's to come. I think I also agree on your Doak scale assessment.
I will say that on that trip Cruden Bay was my favorite and left the strongest lasting impression. Not sure if I'd feel the same way today, which is why I need to get back again soon.
-
"16 is one of the worst holes I have experienced on a great course. It is simply an uphill slog to a dull green with dopey mounds on the right wing. The hole screams out that the archie ran out of room."
While I think Sean's is being a bit severe, #16 is certainly one of the more controversial holes at Dornoch. ;)
-
Rich Goodale's comments on #16, from Experience Royal Dornoch:
The 16th is an uphill climb to a largely featureless skyline green. Many people feel it is the weakest hole on the course,
but Peter Allis has called it the epitome of links golf, due to its imitation of infinity. The hole is a superb test of driving, both in strategy and execution. If you stray even a little to the left your ball can boomerang off the slope to the oblivion of an old quarry. If you bail out right there are two fairway bunkers which will guarantee a five.
A long iron or 3-wood to the left hand side, short of the quarry, is the safe shot. This leaves a blind uphill second shot for which distance control is difficult. The green is large, flat and fast, and protected by three large mounds on the right and a large hollow at the rear. Once on the green take a moment to enjoy one of the most beautiful panoramic views anywhere in golf.
-
David
I would never call 16 a weak hole. But for my tastes, a hole that much uphill needs a bit of charm to make up for the slog element. The 16th couldn't be called a charmer like Sandwich's 10th. A big part of the charm comes down to yardage...the hole is too long for that sort of grade. It strikes me as purely a connecter from the lower links up to the lovely 17th.
Ciao
-
Sean - nice work catching the features of the course on a cloudy day.
-
Very detailed and interesting read about RDGC...
cannot agree on a 7 however....nearer a 9 in my book on the Doak scale and cannot see a consistently ranked world top 20 being a 7..but as a new poster I better watch what I say!
cruden bay is my old club and while I know it is loved by visitors for a variety of reasons..its not as good a course as Dornoch.
I am doing Castle Stuart for the first time in early July plus 36 at RDGC and 18 at Skibo and Fortose so will provide any further comments on RDGC after that visit...
Has anyone played Bonar Bridge btw?
-
A post above reminds me that Experience Royal Dornoch is a must buy. Rich Goodale's contributions are well done and the book is beautifully produced.
The same applies to the other two books in the series on TOC and Carnoustie.
Bob
-
"Has anyone played Bonar Bridge btw?"
Angus M. -
I have played the 9-hole course at Bonar Bridge a couple of times, but not in at least 7-8 years. It is a pretty spot with some nice views, especially in August when the heather is in boom. But it cannot really compare to the nearby courses at Dornoch, Tain, Golspie & Brora.
DT
-
Welcome, "new poster" Angus, and don't shy away from telling us what you think. Most of us on this site are MCMs (Mucci Certified Morons(tm)) anyway.
I agree with you on Cruden Bay vs. Dornoch. Both places are great experiences, but they are not of the same class. Don't worry about Sean's 7. He's mathematically challenged (given that he plays like a 2 and pretends he's a 10) and thus probably doesn't understand the logarimthmic nature of the Doak Scale......
As to Bonar Bridge, give it a pass. I've played there several times and while there are a few great views over Loch Migdale there are also lots of midgies and the golf is medicore at best. If you want 9 holes within 30 minutes of Dornoch, go to Portmahomack, which I've walked but not played, but it looks like proper quirky links golf. If you do and like it, let us know and I'll play it when I'm next up in Dornoch in a month or so. Also, Portmahomack is a coll wee village with a great on-going archaological dig and history museum right near the course as well as a fine fish restaurant, the Oystercatcher (if it's still there).
Enjoy.
-
Rich
Many thanks for the heads up on BB....
I am at RDGC 4th and 5th July if our schedules align...
Heard of Portmahomack and will try and squeeze it in if light permits...
And appreciate the guidance on posting...
Pebble Beach is over rated....there i said it!
-
Rich
Many thanks for the heads up on BB....
I am at RDGC 4th and 5th July if our schedules align...
Heard of Portmahomack and will try and squeeze it in if light permits...
And appreciate the guidance on posting...
Pebble Beach is over rated....there i said it!
Angus
If you are going to be at Dornoch on the 4th and 5th, you will have no difficulty finding me as I will be in the midst of ~50 of my extended family, ranging in age from 5 to 85, and I will be the only one not talking Glaswegian. Let me know when and where you will be on thoe days.
As for Pebble Beach, it is overrated architecturally, but it is the only course in the world that I would say that $500/round can be "value for money," but I may be biased as I played the course most often (in the 70's and 80's) when you could play two rounds for $35 (including carts) and the last time I played there (2013) it was at rack rates with my wife, 2nd off the tee on the most beautiful day I have ever played the course, and it was worth the 10 Benjis, and possibly more.
Hope to see you in a few weeks.
Rich
-
Angus,
Rich is right that Portmahomack is a better game than Bonar Bridge but I would not dismiss it so quickly. The extending of the course has lost much of the charm though it is undoubtedly safer however the hole 6 through to 9 are worth seeing including the wonderful 7th. I suppose it depends what you are looking for but if it is something a bit different whilst giving value for money then many of the more illustrious courses could do worse than take a leaf out of the book of many of Scotland's wonderful hidden 9 holers.
Jon
-
David
I would never call 16 a weak hole. But for my tastes, a hole that much uphill needs a bit of charm to make up for the slog element. The 16th couldn't be called a charmer like Sandwich's 10th. A big part of the charm comes down to yardage...the hole is too long for that sort of grade. It strikes me as purely a connecter from the lower links up to the lovely 17th.
Ciao
Sean
Look to the left as you walk up. A lovely view no?
I really enjoy your analysis of courses, but I hope I never get to the stage where I play somewhere like Dornoch and devote my thoughts to nit picking. The experience there for me is about the whole, not the sum of its parts. It has an intangible charisma that I think is difficult to rate or classify. Reading criticism of Dornoch, however mild is like watching the family pet being tortured.
Dornoch ain't a 7!
-
Ryan
You may be right, but I don't love Dornoch like other people seem to. For whatever reason (and I did mention several), the course doesn't thrill me like people tell me it should and it certainly is far from perfect or "if you miss one hole you miss something special". Its interesting because I think of Dornoch in a dead heat with St Enodoc and Ballybunion, but for me the odd holes of St Enodoc means it carries the day in terms of personal favourites. FYI - a 7 is an extremely high score from me. I am not one of the Ran or Rihc types that gives out 9s like sweeties in a doctor's surgery :D . I would be happy to return someday...and thats all that really matters. All the other talk is cheap sport.
Ciao
-
I'm a big fan of Dornoch, might have something to do with the fact I've always shot good scores there, but it is just a lovely place to play golf. A course that is easy on the eye, strategically challenging without needing to steal half the balls out of your bag (that said I think I've only ever played it in Spring and Autumn - always the best time to play links in my opinion) and a great variety of holes. The shoreline holes are my favourites I must admit. 16 does seem a little out of character with the rest of the course, but I guess it was needed to link to the final 2 holes.
I like it and look forward to my next visit.
PS - I also love staying at the Royal Hotel on the first tee, great bar, wonderful view from the restaurant window and better than expected food when I was last there. Wonderful being able to put your shoes on in the hotel and walk down to the 1st tee.
-
Rich
I tee off at 3.40 on the 4th at RDGC after a warm up at Skibo that morning...
Given the date i will look for the Stars and Stripes and hopefully find you!
Playing with Neil Hampton first off following morning...hangover permitting!
Look forward to saying hello or as they say in Aberdeen where i hail from, fit like !
-
I thought I'd bump this thread of Sean's after seeing photos today of an architect firm's proposed plans for Dornoch's new clubhouse. They're only proposed plans so the finished clubhouse could look radically different but I thought they were worth sharing. Thoughts?
http://jamstudio.uk.com/projects/commercial/royal-dornoch-golf-club (http://jamstudio.uk.com/projects/commercial/royal-dornoch-golf-club)
-
I think this was the chosen version:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lLEo4s7CwIw
They can afford it. They'll be due a massive VAT rebate shortly. I think the contention is about the location rather than the building.
-
Ryan
Thanks for posting the video. I'd missed that. I've only been up to Dornoch once but the clubhouse did feel in need of replacing, or significantly updated at the very least. It had a slight air of damp golf shoes/dog. I guess it's the problem of squaring the fact that RD is a members club while at the same time accepting a significant number of visitors annually who are paying expensive green fees.
-
I do not believe that a new clubhouse is being pursued at this time.
-
Wouldn't they be as well to build a new clubhouse above the third or fourth now that the location has been ruined by the ugly concrete boxes that are looming over the course now!
Near the start Dornoch's location is mentioned as four degrees short of the Arctic Circle. I'm probably being pedantic living North of Dornoch and still on the mainland but as far as I'm aware it is a bit over eight.
Thankfully I'm glad to say my pedantry doesn't stretch as far as the golf course and after over 30 years I still take joy out of playing there without looking for the negatives. It has a few weaknesses but I'm not going to score a hole badly for losing a ball in gorse when I'm the one to have played an errant shot.
-
I thought I'd bump this thread of Sean's after seeing photos today of an architect firm's proposed plans for Dornoch's new clubhouse. They're only proposed plans so the finished clubhouse could look radically different but I thought they were worth sharing. Thoughts?
http://jamstudio.uk.com/projects/commercial/royal-dornoch-golf-club (http://jamstudio.uk.com/projects/commercial/royal-dornoch-golf-club)
I think this is a spoof, Michael. If it is not, I will probably not renew my 34+ years membership in the club at my earliest convenience.
Rich
-
According to the Jefcoate Anderson website, theirs was the winning entry of a competition of 6 entries.
http://www.jefcoate-anderson.com/portfolio/Royal-Dornoch-Golf-Club-House
So the JAM Studio designs would have been one of the other 5.
Can't say I'm too excited about either of these designs to be honest, so I wonder what the other 4 entries were like? But as we can't post under pseudonyms I wont expand my crit any further... ::) Perhaps an alternative version of an "armchair architect competition could be a clubhouse design? 8)
[/size][size=78%]Cheers,[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]James[/size]
-
Wasn't this all put on the back burner after last years AGM?
-
According to the Jefcoate Anderson website, theirs was the winning entry of a competition of 6 entries.
http://www.jefcoate-anderson.com/portfolio/Royal-Dornoch-Golf-Club-House (http://www.jefcoate-anderson.com/portfolio/Royal-Dornoch-Golf-Club-House)
So the JAM Studio designs would have been one of the other 5.
Can't say I'm too excited about either of these designs to be honest, so I wonder what the other 4 entries were like? But as we can't post under pseudonyms I wont expand my crit any further... ::) Perhaps an alternative version of an "armchair architect competition could be a clubhouse design? 8)
[size=78%]Cheers,[/size]
[size=78%]James[/size]
Thanks for that link, James. I actually like the Jefcoate-Anderson design in that it gives homage to the current clubhouse while significantly expanding the views over the courses and the sea. The bottom bit needs to be changed to look less like a prison block and more like a welcoming place, but that should not be hard, given that the budget will not be seriously limited. Should this design be built, I would look forward to enjoying it in splendid isolation 95% of the year, and in a less chaotic experience in the ~5% of the year when it is full of other people.
-
I also like the look of the winning entry, or at least the version without incorporating the clocktower and roof ridges which just looks bizarre. I look the use of the stone in a contemporary design, and the extensive views offered to the course and the coast. Not sure about the internal layout which seems to replicate what's already there in that the bar is tucked round the corner from the main area which also appears to be largely taken up with dining.
Is the building to be located in the current position or is it going to be moved nearer the sea ? Indeed is it going to be developed ?
Niall
-
Wow, what a tough group.
After six rounds, my impression is this a tremendous golf course and really worth getting to know well.
If we are criticizing # 7, #16 and one par three that should be hit with a different club, that is rarefied air. #7 and #16 would be stand out holes on many courses. Oh and probably seven greens are non plateau.
Actually, I think there is a nice mix of uphill, downhill and even holes in slightly different directions for a links course.
Simply a wonderful golf course.
Wm Flynnfan
-
Wow what a tough group.
After six rounds, my impression is this a tremendous golf course and really worth getting to know well.
If we are criticizing # 7, #16 and one par three that should be hit with a different club, that is rarefied air. #7 and #16 would be stand out holes on many courses. Oh and probably seven greens are non plateau.
Actually, I think there is a nice mix of uphill, downhill and even holes in slightly different directions for a links course.
Simply a wonderful golf course.
Wm Flynnfan
Bill
I don't think I am tough on Dornoch. Regardless of the numbers, and I admit to being conservative with the Doak scale because I have not seen enough of the great courses in other parts of the world, my Doak 8 places Dornoch top 10 in GB&I...ahead of some seriously excellent courses.
Ciao
-
Wow what a tough group.
After six rounds, my impression is this a tremendous golf course and really worth getting to know well.
If we are criticizing # 7, #16 and one par three that should be hit with a different club, that is rarefied air. #7 and #16 would be stand out holes on many courses. Oh and probably seven greens are non plateau.
Actually, I think there is a nice mix of uphill, downhill and even holes in slightly different directions for a links course.
Simply a wonderful golf course.
Wm Flynnfan
Bill,
Glad you made it over. My wife and I were there again in early September.
No secret at all - as it's on prominent display in the clubhouse - is that the GCA firm of Mackenzie/Ebert has proposed some changes to the course. By FAR the most significant changes will be to hole #7.
According to the diagram that I saw the 7th hole would be moved towards the water so that the right side butts up to the ridge where the mess of gorse exists today. The green would also move right and my guess would be close to 50 yards.
I recall that #16 may get lengthened and the right-side bunkers would be made more visible. There's a "ball magnet" on that left side where I seem to regularly hit my tee shot giving a blind prayer shot up to that large, flat green.
-
Mackenzie/Ebert has proposed some changes to the course. By FAR the most significant changes will be to hole #7.
According to the diagram that I saw the 7th hole would be moved towards the water so that the right side butts up to the ridge where the mess of gorse exists today. The green would also move right and my guess would be close to 50 yards.
Interesting. Sounds similar to the revised 9th at Cruden Bay. Nice spot for photographs too.
atb
-
Ian,
I looked at the proposals on display when I was at Dornoch about 3 weeks ago. I'm sure a few others more in touch with the comings and goings of the club can contribute further or better, but the way I read the M&E proposals, the most significant changes COULD be rather than WILL be those to 7, as it was offered up as an alternative beyond the minor changes or adjustments they proposed elsewhere.
For what its worth I wouldn't change the 7th to the extent proposed (or enlarge the clubhouse ::) [size=78%] ), as I think it gets a great deal of unwarranted criticism. Its one of the better greens on the course, difficult to hit with a long club, a cool false front and run offs on a couple of sides without being massively pushed up above the surrounding land. The changes appear to be an attempt to open up a view from the green down to the sea which would be pretty impressive, but there are already plenty of impressive views on the course.[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Cheers,[/size]
[/size][size=78%]James[/size]
-
Sean,
I also do not agree about 7. Yes, tee to green it lacks something which could be easily remedied with a bit of shaping but the green is one of the most subtle challenges I have seen and something the course does not have much of. My only real criticism of Dornoch is the par 3s as a collective 3 of the 4 offer an almost identical challenge with the 10th being the only really poor hole on the course.
Jon
Everyone talks about the length on 7, but the interesting part about this hole is the third shot, which is nearly always something from outside 75 feet because of the contours regardless of where it's into the wind and you are hitting 3-wood or downwind and you are hitting a short iron. To me that seems imminently interesting golf.
-
A post above reminds me that Experience Royal Dornoch is a must buy. Rich Goodale's contributions are well done and the book is beautifully produced.
The same applies to the other two books in the series on TOC and Carnoustie.
Bob
I wonder where it might be possible to buy those books these days....
-
A post above reminds me that Experience Royal Dornoch is a must buy. Rich Goodale's contributions are well done and the book is beautifully produced.
The same applies to the other two books in the series on TOC and Carnoustie.
Bob
I wonder where it might be possible to buy those books these days....
Thanks for the hype, Bob and Bill. All 3 books are still for sale at r.goodale@btopenworld.com, although delivery might be spotty over the next 7 weeks as I'll be in Florida starting this Saturday. I will bring some books across the pond. First come first served!
Rich
-
James B #1 (Boonie)
I agree with you and James B #2 (whom shall call "It's a Man's World", or IAMW for short). The current 7th has one of the best green complexes on the course, which means one of the great GC's of the golfing world. Moving the green to the cliff top is very tempting, and has been bruited for a long time, but like all temptations it has consequences--particularly, interrupting the flow of the course by adding a forced backwards march from the new green to the tee of the great 8th hole. The proposal should be cryit doon!
As for the new Clubhouse, having viewed the VR video, I rescind my tentative support expressed above. It would be a wretched abomination which would destroy the charm and essential character of RDGC.
-
Wow, what a tough group.
After six rounds, my impression is this a tremendous golf course and really worth getting to know well.
If we are criticizing # 7, #16 and one par three that should be hit with a different club, that is rarefied air. #7 and #16 would be stand out holes on many courses. Oh and probably seven greens are non plateau.
Actually, I think there is a nice mix of uphill, downhill and even holes in slightly different directions for a links course.
Simply a wonderful golf course.
Wm Flynnfan
Bill
I tend to think the top courses get judged while the rest just get enjoyed. As Sean says, a 7 or 8 is hardly knocking the course I wouldn't have thought. What Sean and others including myself have tried to do is look beyond the wonderful setting and give na honest and fair appraisal of the course in itself.
With regards the greens, seven may be non plateau but that leaves an awful lot that are, especially for a links course. However it's not necessarily the number but the nature of some of them eg. the height of them, the steepness of the slope and some instances the way it masks the green surface. All right if you are used to an aerial game I suppose but not the best for links golf IMO.
How did you find the back nine or ten holes ? Did you find them a bit of a slog ?
Niall
-
Niall
The more intimately I get to know some courses the more I realize that assigning a number to a course I have only played a handful of times over a large number of years is ever so difficult. Throw in that I always want to hedge my bets because I haven't seen perhaps 10 of what are meant to be the very best courses in the world. Also throw in that I basically disagree with the concept of a 10 on Doak's Scale as defined and 7 comes out to a very high score. Even so, I am clearly not as high on Dornoch as most and you pointed out the greens as one reason. The second is definitely the finish after Foxy. Regardless of what number is assigned, I think we can all agree Dornoch is a great course. So long as the green fee doesn't continue to sky rocket, I would like to return. Any of the clubhouse concepts touted would make me less inclined to visit because for one, they are awful, and two, that means green fees rise to pay for it.
Ciao
-
The greens are fantastic you philistines!.... One bounce before and up you go. Beautifully shaped.
Sean - you clearly get out too much. All this golf is getting to your head.
-
Sean
You don't feel RD is great value at £120 or £70 twilight? A UK top 10 as you put it?
Burnham is £85.......
-
Sean
Agreed, Dornoch is a terrific course and as I said I don't think giving it a 7 or 8 is knocking it irrespective of how hard you are on marking. What I would say is that I'm not sure it would be in my top 5 Scottish (haven't played enough throughout the UK to have a top 10 UK) but that certainly doesn't mean it's not a terrific course.
Niall
-
Sean
You don't feel RD is great value at £120 or £70 twilight? A UK top 10 as you put it?
Burnham is £85.......
Ryan
No, I don't think Dornoch is great value...its good value for the quality...though I think its better value than Burnham. That said, at least Burnham isn't over-run by touristas making a game last over 5 hours :P
Great value for quality is a place like Cavendish or Kington.
Ciao
-
.... or Silloth.
-
Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.
Philip
-
Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.
Philip
Me too. TOC, Muirfield and North Berwick for me.
-
Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.
Philip
Close...4
North Berwick
Castle Stuart
TOC
Prestwick
Ciao
-
I am biased having played 30-50 times as many rounds on Dornoch as any of the others. Even so, i am not sure any of those courses will provide the same sense of first tee anticipation/ all round pleasure that Dornoch provides for me. And no, that is not a pure GCA judgement, not that Dornoch needs to stand back on that score either, despite some hair-shirt views on this thread!
In that regard, i generally agree that 7 not an especially strong hole, though the green makes it harder to score than it looks. As for 16, if we are comparing skyline green on links courses, t is not as good as 10 at Sandwich which is a truly great hole by any reckoning. But I still think it is very good - tough drive, difficult second because distance (and direction) so hard to judge. And it has an all-world setting. Yes it is uphill and often into the wind, but that is hardly a serious criticism.
-
The nicest thing about this debate is that Dornoch will be exactly the same place regardless of what anyone thinks.
-
Phillip,
I agree completely, Dornock has an indisputable sense of place and 16 of those holes fit like a glove. Screw those other two holes up and your medal score it shot!
ps. Why have you retired that Sony camera, the memorable photo threads from you are sorely missed! You're still gca's best photographer in my book.
-
You are very kind Pete - lots of competition for that accolade. Main reason is not playing any new courses for a while + losing camera when i had played LACC and Riviera in lovely weather + replacement camera not so great+laziness. Will try to do better!
-
I'm guilty of that too, have taken photos of lots of golf courses but doing a full photo tour is frankly quite tedious! I'll never forget showing my wife your photos of Royal Dornock, we honeymooned there, she said "why don't your photos come out as good as those!" I imeadiately got a Sony on your recommendation. And it does take great pics. I'll try to do tour soon.
-
I am biased having played 30-50 times as many rounds on Dornoch as any of the others. Even so, i am not sure any of those courses will provide the same sense of first tee anticipation/ all round pleasure that Dornoch provides for me. And no, that is not a pure GCA judgement, not that Dornoch needs to stand back on that score either, despite some hair-shirt views on this thread!
Philip
I know what you mean...only the way you feel about Dorncoch is how I feel about North Berwick and Prestwick. Although, the Doak number doesn't really matter once we are talking such lofty standards. Great is great, we can split hairs til the sun sets, but that is the bottom line.
Ciao
-
Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.
Philip
Philip
In no particular order I would think that Troon, Carnoustie, Moray Old, Nairn, Machrihanish and North Berwick would be in contention (along with Dornoch). I'm also tempted to put in Glasgow Gailes but then you might think me totally biased as it's my home course (as was Moray for a while), and it's certainly better than Western IMO.
These are all courses I've played on a number of occasions as I have Dornoch so feel I can make a reasonable comparison. Other courses that I've only played once but might come into contention with a few more plays would be TOC, Prestwick, and Cruden Bay. Cruden Bay in particular could as there is some great golf there although I remember getting fairly hacked off with the blind stretch from 13-16. Would my view on that change with familiarity ? Who knows.
Then there's other courses that I've played but not for a good while therefore I'm a bit shy in putting them in the mix. Thinking here of the New, the Jubilee, Kings (first non links I've mentioned) and Gullane 1. All of the above are what I'd call big courses and I've kind of left off the "smaller" courses such as the Queens, the Eden, Gullane 3 (and possibly Gullane 2) and Prestwick St Nich's even though they could offer the most fun of the lot.
It should also be said I haven't played Askernish, Machrie or Royal Aberdeen. From what I've heard of RA I'd be surprised if it didn't force it's way into contention.
Niall
-
Blimey, Niall. You must have very different criteria for judging a golf course than mine if some of those are in contention for being better than Dornoch. In Scotland of those I have played I can only think of TOC, Muirfield and Prestwick. I like Troon and Carnoustie a lot more than some but they certainly aren't (IMHO) challenging Dornoch. Machrihanish is very good but not quite great. The New is good but clearly no Dornoch and the Jubilee simply doesn't fit in the conversation. Cruden Bay has a run as good as anywhere from 3-8 but has too many blah holes to compete.
I have 4 courses which, for me, are the best 4 I have played worldwide and Dornoch is one of them.
-
Mark
I probably do. I recall our discussion that time we played Dornoch with DT and Stan and you clearly had a higher regard for the course than I did although I'll say again, I do think it a terrific course.
As for my criteria, it would appear (I didn't notice myself until I thought about what I'd written) that I like old/traditional over modern ie. Kingsbarns, CS, Balmedie, Dundonald and Mach Dunes don't get a look in although all very good. I obviously prefer links although some could argue that Scotland has very few really good courses that aren't links which while having an element of truth is probably a bit harsh. For instance I didn't think to mention Loch Lomond which although I've only played once many years ago I remember thinking was a great course.
I also don't worry too much about setting/views/history and the Brigadoon effect which Dornoch has in spades, when judging a course. That might account for my rating Carnoustie and Nairn higher than most other folk would. Also flattish courses with little by way of elevational change doesn't bother me (Carnoustie again) and neither am I too fussed about dunes and all that eye candy stuff.
What I do like is to be challenged in a pleasurable way. Although I'm not a good driver of the ball, I love holes that challenge you off the tee. I love greens that allow different approaches and that also give you room to miss, and that offer varied and interesting shots around the green (is there a duller shot round the greens than a blind chip up to a plateau green ?). All that and good turf.
Not asking for much really ;)
Niall
-
(is there a duller shot round the greens than a blind chip up to a plateau green ?). All that and good turf.
Not asking for much really ;)
Niall
Can't agree with that.
Although I agree it can be overdone and it could quickly get old if repeated a few times on the same course, it offers much the same pleasure as any blind shot .i.e. delayed joy/frustration.
I would say that chipping out of ANY length of rough is much duller. One of the main reasons why I hold just about any links above inland courses.
-
Thanks Niall. My response is similar to Mark - hard to believe that you are citing that long list of course as being in the mix alongside Dornoch when it comes to quality. As you say, perhaps you just look at things a little differently from the consensus view whereby even the GCA's own finest put Dornoch around number 11 in the world! Methinks maybe your Brigadoon comment suggests a strong desire on your part to separate your views from what you regard as a certain mindless conformity on the part of many foreign visitors. Anyway, each to himself and i look forward to playing some of the courses you mention that i have not played. So many courses, so little time.
Sean, agreed. North Berwick certainly has enough high points i can see it might fill that same role if i had played it enough. Prestwick - my memory bank is a bit thin. I suspect a strong regard for GCA history plays a little bit of a role in that particular case!
Philip
-
Philip
If you read my post you will see I only listed five that would be in contention with Dornoch for my top 5. The others I mentioned as being possibly in contention if I knew them better. In fact I notice I missed out Muirfield which is another one. In essence, I wouldn't quibble that Dornoch is in the mix, even if I probably wouldn't have it in my top 5.
The rest of the post was just outlining how I got there. As for what others think, well this is the site for free and frank discussion on golf course architecture !
Niall
-
Niall,
Thanks for your response. I do recall that game with the Principal, David T and you (not least as Stan and I finished 3rd overall that weekend, I think!) and that I probably thought higher of Dornoch than you did. As you say, looking for slightly different things in a course can produce quite different opinions.
BTW, Muirfield is also one that's also up there in my top 4, and one where I think there's a bigger delta from accepted GCA wisdom.