Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David Ober on May 19, 2015, 09:51:23 PM
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The thread on Pebble's 17th hole got me thinking. Tiger evidently said that he wouldn't return to the AT&T because of Pebble's bumpy poa greens, and someone in the thread remarked that poa is just fine to putt on. I agree with both statements: Poa can be a great putting surface early in the day, but a horrible one by 2:00 p.m. and a ridiculously difficult one by 4:00 p.m. Everyone on this site knows that, I think.
I'm curious, though, what are the best (mostly) poa greens you've ever putted on? Here are mine:
The former SCGA Golf Course in Murrieta, CA (formerly Rancho California Golf Course, a RTJ Sr. design, I believe). back in the early 2000's, they were, quite simply, ridiculously good if you played any time before noon. You could get on a putting run on that golf course like no other if you were striking your ball well. They stumped in the 11 to 12 range, and they were just perfect.
Lakeside Golf Club in Burbank, CA. So good. So fast. So tiny. And they hold up remarkably well even when there are 200 players on the course for the Kelly Cup every year.
Bear Creek Golf Club in Murrieta, CA. My home course. Anyone who has played there in the last several years can attest to this. During the fall, winter, and early spring, they are amazingly true and fast. They are such a treat to putt.
Spyglass, in Monterey, CA. These may or may not be mostly poa. I'm pretty sure they are, but not positive. I have played maybe a dozen rounds there, and they have been anywhere from very good to great. The last two times I played, I couldn't believe how good they were, but that was two years ago.
How 'bout the rest of you???
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Bethpage Red-always perfect-always, despite heavy play
except this year....
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Spy I'd certainly rate right at the top for me. They really improved the drainage and reduced the formerly grossly over-watered presentation in the late ' 90s.
The result has been more consistent putting surfaces for the greens and better agronomics in general day-to-day. PB's greens get punky and spongy late in the day which leads to the bump city type rolls often encountered during the evenings.
When poa is right ...it's a great putting surface in my view. That said, maintaining it can be a fickle business!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Pajaro Valley when I was there.
Pasatiempo when Dean firmed them up.
Half Moon Bay Golf Links in the 80's.
Pebble Beach and Spyglass.
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???
Not even close in my experience , Oakmont , Oakmont , Oakmont !
They are incredibly durable and perfect.
Pine Valleys very very good , but not Oakmont
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???
Not even close in my experience , Oakmont , Oakmont , Oakmont !
They are incredibly durable and perfect.
Pine Valleys very very good , but not Oakmont
Never played there, so can't comment. :-)
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The greens on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club in the early1980's (before the landslide that forced the three par-4's across the road to be abandoned) were excellent, probably better than the greens on the Lake.
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Many of the famous northeastern courses are more poa annua, although they'd prefer you call it bent grass ... Oakmont, Winged Foot, Garden City, Oakland Hills, Crystal Downs, etc.
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Oakmont's truly stand apart.
Others, in order:
Crystal Downs
Winged Foot
Pine Valley
Plainfield
Mountain Ridge
Paramount (far, far superior to Bethpage's IMO)
Fenway
The Country Club at Brookline
Garden City
Ridgewood
Aspen City Muni (back in the day)
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Oakmont, followed by Wilshire, back in the day.
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my club, LOL
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My home course's greens are mostly poa, I believe. They have all been in play for at least 90 years. They are really nice putting surfaces.
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Many of the famous northeastern courses are more poa annua, although they'd prefer you call it bent grass ... Oakmont, Winged Foot, Garden City, Oakland Hills, Crystal Downs, etc.
Oak Hill East
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Riv and NGLA
Poa might be my favorite surface! It's great if embraced and well maintained.
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I have no idea what grass(es) comprise the greens at most UK courses i've played. Aberdovey had outstanding greens last year as did Birkdale and Alwoodley in 2007 and Deal most years. Delamere Forest last year may have been the finest I've putted on in the UK but they supposedly are only minority Poa.
In USA the greens at Spyglass were very nice in 2005 if they were indeed largely Poa.
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David,
Tiger did return, for the US Open that MacDowell won! I think the issue with the AT&T is the holes are only moved a foot or two to keep the challenge consistent and four players in each group cause more wear. Also it's harder to keep the greens firm in Jan or Feb.
The upshot of the numerous responses you have received is that Poa is great when maintained by rich people!
I suspect that over 90% of the greens in Cal. started as bent and through aeration, left an avenue for Poa to invade. I have heard that Stanford doesn't use large hole aeration and have been successful at keeping the Poa at bay. Torrey South refused to aerate before the 2008 US Open to try to keep the greens pure bent. The tremendous layer of thatch made it necessary for them to aerate aggressively just before the Open when Mark Woodward took over; Poa came in almost overnight!
Barona Creek still has a large Bent component, but they had people on their hands and knees with pen knives digging the Poa clumps out. The warm and dry microclimate helps a lot too.
Here in SD County there has been a definite shift from overwatered and spongy to firm and dry; Coronado comes to mind. 10 years ago I complained to the Pro Shop that the greens were so wet that 4 irons were leaving giant muddy craters upon impact. They looked at me like I had just dropped in from another planet. I played in their Member Guest for many years and we would volunteer to go off first on day 1 which was tee times, man you could make some putts because no one had walked near the hole. In the Shotgun the next day your make distance shrunk to half due to the bumpy conditions. They now have the dryness dialed in and last weekend we were searching for short iron and wedge ball marks!
Many courses here now have the new Greens Rollers, where the rider sits sideways, they really help smooth out the surface and allow for quicker speeds with a longer cut and little to no compaction.
San Diego CC has the best Poa surfaces here in SD, fast and true.
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David,
San Diego CC has the best Poa surfaces here in SD, fast and true.
This is true. Their greens are wonderful.
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my club, LOL
Gray,
On Monday, I had the 8:25 tee time, and after downhill putts on 11, 12, 14, and 15, I was convinced that they were the fastest greens I had ever putted on in my life. This was confirmed when talking to one of the members I had played hockey with a year ago, who said that the super measured them at 14.3 on the stimp in the morning. It was an eye-opening experience.
For those wondering, we are talking about Eugene CC. Anyone who watched Casey Martin's charge on the Back 9 in the afternoon would have to believe that Casey would think the same. He hit 3 putts over 30 feet in distance, as he went 4 under on the back nine to avoid the playoff by one. I have to assume that Casey would think Eugene's poa greens are quite good as well. ;D
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Columbia Edgewater in Portland, Oregon.
(Voted a few years ago by the players of the LPGA as their favorite greens to putt on.)
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my club, LOL
Gray,
On Monday, I had the 8:25 tee time, and after downhill putts on 11, 12, 14, and 15, I was convinced that they were the fastest greens I had ever putted on in my life. This was confirmed when talking to one of the members I had played hockey with a year ago, who said that the super measured them at 14.3 on the stimp in the morning. It was an eye-opening experience.
For those wondering, we are talking about Eugene CC. Anyone who watched Casey Martin's charge on the Back 9 in the afternoon would have to believe that Casey would think the same. He hit 3 putts over 30 feet in distance, as he went 4 under on the back nine to avoid the playoff by one. I have to assume that Casey would think Eugene's poa greens are quite good as well. ;D
there is nothing better than playing "golf" under championship conditions
glad you could experience it Connor
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Augusta National appears to me to be mostly Poa, but having never putted them, those could not be nominated by me
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Many courses here now have the new Greens Rollers, where the rider sits sideways, they really help smooth out the surface and allow for quicker speeds with a longer cut and little to no compaction.
San Diego CC has the best Poa surfaces here in SD, fast and true.
We roll five or six days a week and our greens are generally very, very good at Bear Creek. Rolling greens really helps for sure.
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Augusta National appears to me to be mostly Poa, but having never putted them, those could not be nominated by me
I'm no expert on Augusta, but I'm pretty sure they are 100% bent.
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Augusta National appears to me to be mostly Poa, but having never putted them, those could not be nominated by me
I'm no expert on Augusta, but I'm pretty sure they are 100% bent.
they don't look like bent to me when I'm at a practice round, but I could be wrong of course
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Hands down Tacoma Country & Golf Club. The Pacific Northwest is perfect for poa, it never gets too hot to burn out or goes to seed to the point where they are bumpy.
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Pasatiempo.
Poa is a problem at Bandon.
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Had the pleasure of playing Coronado Municipal in Feb of 2013 and was blown away with the putting surfaces. Pure Poa typical of Southern California and as smooth as pool tables. Considering staff & budget plus number of annual rounds played would put them up against any of the "big boys" previously mentioned.
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Poa is a problem at Bandon.
and the solution is ?
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Poa is a problem at Bandon.
and the solution is ?
Wait until it's no longer a problem. Bandon's courses must transition to Poa annua.
Older Pacific Northwest courses have nice Poa annua greens. In the Portland area, Royal Oaks GC in Vancouver is often cited as having fast, smooth greens.
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How do all these poa greens play in winter...if the courses are open in winter? This is the big problem in the UK with poa...they are spongy or just downright saturated in winter.
Ciao
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Hands down Tacoma Country & Golf Club. The Pacific Northwest is perfect for poa, it never gets too hot to burn out or goes to seed to the point where they are bumpy.
Really want to get down there and play Tacoma and Fircrest this summer.
Having just played Seattle Golf Club on Mothers Day, I have to say those were the best poa greens I've putted on. 12.2 and smooth.
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Augusta National appears to me to be mostly Poa, but having never putted them, those could not be nominated by me
I'm no expert on Augusta, but I'm pretty sure they are 100% bent.
they don't look like bent to me when I'm at a practice round, but I could be wrong of course
They are 100%, pure bent grass.
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Augusta National appears to me to be mostly Poa, but having never putted them, those could not be nominated by me
I'm no expert on Augusta, but I'm pretty sure they are 100% bent.
they don't look like bent to me when I'm at a practice round, but I could be wrong of course
They are 100%, pure bent grass.
sounds good, they are so tightly moved, and dried out with every color a grass/weed could be...purple yellow brown green black...just fantastic...didn't realize bent did that
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Bandon Crossings. No joke.
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Linville Golf Club, Linville, N.C.
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In England, Ealing Golf Club seem to be the best - certainly they get the most publicity. Lots have been waiting for the HGK to come unstuck, but he hasn't yet.
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LACC before the redo but I dont know now. Also Vandenberg AFB Marshalia Ranch had amazing greens.
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LACC before the redo but I dont know now. Also Vandenberg AFB Marshalia Ranch had amazing greens.
Almost halfway between those two is La Cumbre Country Club. Consistently excellent.
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Fisher's Island... Firm. True. Amazing.
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In England, Ealing Golf Club seem to be the best - certainly they get the most publicity. Lots have been waiting for the HGK to come unstuck, but he hasn't yet.
Beat me to it Ryan. HGK there has a good concept that he follows. It produces good putting surfaces even through the winter. I played there a few years ago now in mid January and the course was on full greens which putted really well. It certainly is not my philosophy but hats off to him it certainly works.
Brett,
all greens in the UK have some poa in them but those courses you mention would have less than 50% stand of poa and so not considered a poa green by myself.
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Brett,
all greens in the UK have some poa in them but those courses you mention would have less than 50% stand of poa and so not considered a poa green by myself.
Thanks, Jon.
Having lived my whole life in South Carolina the only two kinds of grass I can identify are called "Bermuda" and "not Bermuda". :(
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Brett,
all greens in the UK have some poa in them but those courses you mention would have less than 50% stand of poa and so not considered a poa green by myself.
Thanks, Jon.
Having lived my whole life in South Carolina the only two kinds of grass I can identify are called "Bermuda" and "not Bermuda". :(
;D
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Pasatiempo.
Poa is a problem at Bandon.
I agree. An afternoon round on Trails made it apparent to anyone playing. Still loved it, though!
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In England, Ealing Golf Club seem to be the best - certainly they get the most publicity. Lots have been waiting for the HGK to come unstuck, but he hasn't yet.
Beat me to it Ryan. HGK there has a good concept that he follows. It produces good putting surfaces even through the winter. I played there a few years ago now in mid January and the course was on full greens which putted really well. It certainly is not my philosophy but hats off to him it certainly works.
Brett,
all greens in the UK have some poa in them but those courses you mention would have less than 50% stand of poa and so not considered a poa green by myself.
Jon
I think Ealing have a healthy budget to allow him to weave his magic, I think he puts down something like 300 tonne of dressing every year, cuts at 2mm, new blades, constant grinding etc. Can't knock him though, it works for him and he's elevated the status of Ealing (and himself) massively.
He says that it is sustainable - meadow grass is indigenous and to be fair all but probably 5 star places like Grove, Wisley and Queenwood, everyone who has ever fought poa in this country, inland, generally loses.
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Ryan,
you are quite right. Nothing wrong with a healthy amount of poa in the sward though.
Jon
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Pasatiempo.
Poa is a problem at Bandon.
I agree. An afternoon round on Trails made it apparent to anyone playing. Still loved it, though!
Dwight:
How long ago did you play? And did you think there was a poa "problem" on the greens at Pac?
Sven
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Pasatiempo.
Poa is a problem at Bandon.
I agree. An afternoon round on Trails made it apparent to anyone playing. Still loved it, though!
Dwight:
How long ago did you play? And did you think there was a poa "problem" on the greens at Pac?
Sven
Played both courses in February and Pacific's greens were running better than Trails FWIW... not sure of the Poa mix in either though.
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Pasatiempo.
Poa is a problem at Bandon.
I agree. An afternoon round on Trails made it apparent to anyone playing. Still loved it, though!
Dwight:
How long ago did you play? And did you think there was a poa "problem" on the greens at Pac?
Sven
Played both courses in February and Pacific's greens were running better than Trails FWIW... not sure of the Poa mix in either though.
Right now there's more Poa in the greens at Pac than at Trails.
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Pasatiempo.
Poa is a problem at Bandon.
I agree. An afternoon round on Trails made it apparent to anyone playing. Still loved it, though!
Dwight:
How long ago did you play? And did you think there was a poa "problem" on the greens at Pac?
Sven
Played both courses in February and Pacific's greens were running better than Trails FWIW... not sure of the Poa mix in either though.
Right now there's more Poa in the greens at Pac than at Trails.
All hail Poa :)
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I can't fathom ay poa greens better than the set I played today at Illahe Hills (Salem,OR)
At BDGR, both Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes recently changed their maintenance protocols to facilitate poa annua. Bandon Trails and Old MacDonald are still maintained for fescue.
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Linville Golf Club, Linville, N.C.
+1. Amazing greens there. Firm fast and true.