Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Gary Sato on May 03, 2015, 05:58:23 PM
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I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage. This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.
Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry. If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.
Thoughts?
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The PGA is part of the problem. Through the GPTP, as well as 2 year (and 4 year) management programs,
they help perpetuate the myth of the glamorous PGA professional job.
Get rid of an assistant at a low paying job, and there are numerous candidates for the grinder to
move in.
Fire your head pro and you will have hundreds of candidates for any good job.
As far as golf course maintenance, for years it was the underground, undocumented worker that would take these
jobs at about any wage, which then set the stage for low pay.
One of our assistants at our club (a Club Corp course) just got a job at an equity club an hour away. His hourly went
up 60%, and he will keep 100% of his lessons rather than 70% :o
There are good jobs out there, just far more embarrassingly low pay ones.
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I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage. This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.
Can you provide specific data that supports your suspicions and claims ?
Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry.
From whom would you expect to hear from ?
Maintenance workers are hired by small employers that don't have hundreds of thousands of workers like Walmart and Macdonalds.
Many, if not most clubs provide health insurance and 401K's, plus meals.
Most clubs probably have 15 to 22 workers and many might be seasonal
If clubs are experiencing financial difficulty due to fewer members, why would you expect them to increase expenses ?
That would be one of the most moronic financial moves any entity could make.
Take in lower revenues and increase expenses.
That's a formula for disaster.
Unlike the Federal government clubs can't just print money.
I'd surmise that you're not a member of a private club.
If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.
Thoughts?
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The PGA is part of the problem. Through the GPTP, as well as 2 year (and 4 year) management programs,
they help perpetuate the myth of the glamorous PGA professional job.
Get rid of an assistant at a low paying job, and there are numerous candidates for the grinder to
move in.
Fire your head pro and you will have hundreds of candidates for any good job.
As far as golf course maintenance, for years it was the underground, undocumented worker that would take these
jobs at about any wage, which then set the stage for low pay.
One of our assistants at our club (a Club Corp course) just got a job at an equity club an hour away. His hourly went
up 60%, and he will keep 100% of his lessons rather than 70% :o
Well said...that's the golf business in a nutshell....
There are good jobs out there, just far more embarrassingly low pay ones.
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Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?
In my experiences poor maintenance is more a function of the overall budget than the rate of the individual.
It is also my opinion that poor leaders have more of a negative impact than poor workers.
Cheers
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Gary,
What do you mean by "dirty little secret"?
The object is to make it work which means there are lots of golf jobs worked by highschool kids wanting to have golf and range balls and a minimum wage. Teachers and coaches that have the summers to work and love golf and will take a lower pay in order to play golf and hit balls etc. There i nothing dirty about trying to make something work and if the only people that could do the job were $15 per hour then that is what the scale would be....
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I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage. This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.
Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry. If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.
Thoughts?
Gary,
With respect, this post has zero to do with architecture. Zero.
To answer your thinly veiled architecture/political question: Doubling minimum wage would result in absolutely atrocious conditions because clubs and public courses would be forced to reduce staff. You can't mow the rough, fairways, or greens twice as fast. You can't rake a bunker twice as fast either. To accommodate your supposition, rates would HAVE to go up. Golf is already thought to be too expensive by too many. Would you like to pay 30-40% more for a round or for dues? I do not for the same conditioning and service I enjoy now.
If more people like you would simply add $20-30 per round when paying at the pro shop or pay an additional $150-200 per month in dues (stipulating that you want the extra money split among the assistants and maintenance evenly), this 'problem' could be knocked out quite easily without forcing the rest of us to ignore the laws of supply and demand.
This post is the epitome of what Ran asked us not to discuss in December.
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Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?
Excellent question. In the end its the level of maintenance although raising If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee? In this industry though, can golf courses reduce employment opportunities for low skilled workers.
This debate is no different then any other industry in America. The pros and cons are all the same.
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Gary,
In your work life do you sign the front of checks or the back?
Cheers...
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Gary,
In your work life do you sign the front of checks or the back?
Cheers...
For equal time, does the Golf Now thread come back to this conversation???
As a teenager I worked on a golf course one summer and once was enough.
Ron Whitten's talk about his experience as golf course owner at the last Affordable Golf Conference at Southern Pines was profoundly illuminating .
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Gary,
In your work life do you sign the front of checks or the back?
Cheers...
For equal time, does the Golf Now thread come back to this conversation???
As a teenager I worked on a golf course one summer and once was enough.
Ron Whitten's talk about his experience as golf course owner at the last Affordable Golf Conference at Southern Pines was profoundly illuminating .
Carl,
You got to explain your point to me a little better for me to reply....sorry I missed it...
As for conferences and "owners" explaining their experience I did not see RW at the Affordable conferecne but I am usually talking about active owners mow greens, run the cash register and can cook a hamburger. Nothing aggravates me more than to see one of these Crittendon magazine spouting the Top 50 people in golf etc and it usually consist of some guys at the helm of the big management compnanies. These guys are the ones that specialize in talking Wall St into large lump sums that can be used to purchase blocks of courses for a few years before they are sold at a loss to another guy doing the same. I want to go to a conferecne where you have never heard of the guy speaking. I am sure guys like RW ( and I may be way off here) may be aware of having to split the shortfalls etc but to really understand affordable golf you need the guy you have never heard of from the course you have never heard of and has been in business for 20 or more years.
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Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?
Excellent question. In the end its the level of maintenance although raising If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee? In this industry though, can golf courses reduce employment opportunities for low skilled workers.
This debate is no different then any other industry in America. The pros and cons are all the same.
''If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee?''
This has got to be one of the most elitist and most disgusting sentences ever posted on GCA. Who the hell are you? I took some turf classes in my younger days and the professor had his own small business related to the field. He commented on how much he looked forward to hiring fast food employees for hey they had already been trained in a system and found they had better work ethic because of that past experience. We once valued work ethic and entry level jobs were looked upon well in this country, now they are deemed beneath many. You must teach economics at an Ivy league school, I'm not going to even bother explaining how backwards you are there.
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Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?
Excellent question. In the end its the level of maintenance although raising If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee? In this industry though, can golf courses reduce employment opportunities for low skilled workers.
This debate is no different then any other industry in America. The pros and cons are all the same.
''If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee?''
This has got to be one of the most elitist and most disgusting sentences ever posted on GCA. Who the hell are you? I took some turf classes in my younger days and the professor had his own small business related to the field. He commented on how much he looked forward to hiring fast food employees for hey they had already been trained in a system and found they had better work ethic because of that past experience. We once valued work ethic and entry level jobs were looked upon well in this country, now they are deemed beneath many. You must teach economics at an Ivy league school, I'm not going to even bother explaining how backwards you are there.
+1
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I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage. This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.
Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry. If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.
Thoughts?
Gary,
With respect, this post has zero to do with architecture. Zero.
To answer your thinly veiled architecture/political question: Doubling minimum wage would result in absolutely atrocious conditions because clubs and public courses would be forced to reduce staff. You can't mow the rough, fairways, or greens twice as fast. You can't rake a bunker twice as fast either. To accommodate your supposition, rates would HAVE to go up. Golf is already thought to be too expensive by too many. Would you like to pay 30-40% more for a round or for dues? I do not for the same conditioning and service I enjoy now.
If more people like you would simply add $20-30 per round when paying at the pro shop or pay an additional $150-200 per month in dues (stipulating that you want the extra money split among the assistants and maintenance evenly), this 'problem' could be knocked out quite easily without forcing the rest of us to ignore the laws of supply and demand.
This post is the epitome of what Ran asked us not to discuss in December.
OK..if the course that is built (architecture) is staffed by incompetent or fed up staff... people will stop coming and that architectural gem will become townhomes. I loved my job as a PGA pro...while I was young and didnt need the money. The PGA has done a horrible job of truly advocating for the working pro. Too many of us moved on to careers outside of golf because of the dead end aspect of the job. I can't speak to the other areas as I was a caddie and cart guy all through high school and I deserved minimum wage. When I was a pro, after 3 years and much expense to get my PGA membership, $10/hour didn't seem right so I moved on. The courses built 100 years ago that are so revered here mostly pay well and have seasoned pros for the most part... The rest have really marginal treatment of the staff. I worked in muni, high private, and resort...it is an issue and the PGA is more concerned about Ryder Cup captains than it membership.
So what does this have to do with architecture...a course needs a business model to be viable. Lets say you build a magnificent course in the middle of nowhere FL yet treat the PROFESSIONAL staff like walmart employees.....not good long term.
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I disagree that it's any kind of secret at all, it's seems pretty obvious that it's not a very lucrative field for a majority of the industry. Pay scales seem to be exactly the same as they were 20 years ago and the market is flooded. I feel bad for guys I know who have huge college loans to pay off while they're stuck in Assistant positions. And all I ever see anymore as far as advertised Superintendent positions are 50-60k to manage 18 holes and then some...and the multitude of the stuck Assistants are chomping at the bit for them because of the lack of movement. Maintenance laborers? Superintendents have a challenge finding even somewhat decent guys for the money...at least in America with our unsustainable golf model in design, maintenance and warped perception of what makes a golf course "good" with constant pristine conditioning and the green, weed-less, disease-less, wilt-less aesthetic. The golf industry is lucky to have who it has in it who are passionate and willing to stick with it for the pay. Do we really need golf clubs with 22 plus guys maintaining it? I personally don't think so, but I also don't want or need constant pristine conditions on a course I play or am a member at to have a fun round of golf. Lower standards from pristine and perfect to adequate and fair and have a proper sized staff to achieve that...and pay them enough to at least support their families and only employ the best ones that are motivated and passionate and manage them with inspiration and a future.
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Ryan,
Golf course owners don't need PGA pros. They need guys that can operate a facility and if they happen to be PGA pros then great. As Hogan once said" there is a huge difference between a professional golfer and a golf professional. The problem today is that so many entered the business after trying the professional golfer route and finding it did not workout. I've seen my fair share of young professional golfer types turned golf professional types who can't get out of the rain except to tell the girls at the local bar each nite they are golf pros. I guarantee you if you are a golf professional that can operate an entire operations and know how to show an owner a profit, you can get a pretty good job. The same goes for supts. A supt that always needs more budget and cannot adjust to making a profit also is going away....the fluff is done and both associations have screwed their members....the guys coming up as PGA prez for the next few years are of the same mindset as the last few years and they actually think the PGA is critical to the industry. They can't understand that it is the individuals....
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I've seen my fair share of young professional golfer types turned golf professional types who can't get out of the rain except to tell the girls at the local bar each nite they are golf pros.
Actually we tell 'em we're investment bankers.... ;)
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I've seen my fair share of young professional golfer types turned golf professional types who can't get out of the rain except to tell the girls at the local bar each nite they are golf pros.
Actually we tell 'em we're investment bankers.... ;)
Down here they don't go for that....it's either golf tour or bass fishing tour guys that get the chix....in Alabama it is the dentists...
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Work in outside services - the bag boys make more in tips than the assistant, and almost as much as the Pro, makes in salary at ______ _____ Golf Course in Myrtle Beach. ;D
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Let's put some simple numbers to the question. I'm probably missing something, but here goes:
Give each maintenance employee a $3 per hour raise. Assume 20 full-time employees. 50 weeks of work at 40 hours per week.
(3 dollars per hour) * (2000 hours per year) * (20 employees) = $120,000 in wages.
Without knowledge of payroll, medicare and social security taxes, I'll guess they equal 10% of wages, which would make total expenditures about $132,000.
Case 1. At a public course with 30,000 rounds a year, the cost is approximately $4.40 per round.
Case 2. At a private course with 300 members, the cost is approximately $440 per year, or $37 per month.
Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.
Unfortunately, a $5 hike in round fees, or a $40 a month hike in monthly dues, may result in a significant loss in business for many golf courses. If we raised dues $50 a month at my home club, which is well known and historically successful, we would lose members and probably revenue.
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Saw this today on Craigslist. $10 bucks per hour?
GreenKeeper/Landscape Maintenance @ Golf Course (Industry Hills G.C.)
compensation: $10.00/Hour
We are in search of PART TIME landscape/golf course maintenance general laborers. This job will require you to be able to perform all aspects of labor related to maintaining a golf course and its landscapes around the property. This is a labor intensive job. You must be able to push mow, lift a 50 pound bag, and not have restrictions that would prevent you from doing normal manual labor.
Bi lingual is preferred, but not necessary. We are Spanish and English friendly. We are also male/female friendly. This position pays 10.00 hr. Your scheduled work days may be any day of the week starting at 5:00 A.M. and ending at 9:00 A.M. This may INCLUDE weekends. Uniforms and all personal protective equipment are provided. Tardiness and absenteeism are not acceptable. Serious applicants may inquire by email or phone.
This is a great opportunity for a retired person looking for golfing privileges. Please attach information about past work history.
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Saw this today on Craigslist. $10 bucks per hour?
GreenKeeper/Landscape Maintenance @ Golf Course (Industry Hills G.C.)
compensation: $10.00/Hour
We are in search of PART TIME landscape/golf course maintenance general laborers. This job will require you to be able to perform all aspects of labor related to maintaining a golf course and its landscapes around the property. This is a labor intensive job. You must be able to push mow, lift a 50 pound bag, and not have restrictions that would prevent you from doing normal manual labor.
Bi lingual is preferred, but not necessary. We are Spanish and English friendly. We are also male/female friendly. This position pays 10.00 hr. Your scheduled work days may be any day of the week starting at 5:00 A.M. and ending at 9:00 A.M. This may INCLUDE weekends. Uniforms and all personal protective equipment are provided. Tardiness and absenteeism are not acceptable. Serious applicants may inquire by email or phone.
This is a great opportunity for a retired person looking for golfing privileges. Please attach information about past work history.
HOLY CRAP this just talked me out of even thinking of retirement.
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Here is some perspective that you can take either way. I'm a member at a small club 45 minutes-1 hour outside of a large metro area with a shoestring budget. We have 3.........THREE full time employees and one part time employee that work on our golf course maintenance staff. A super, asst. super, mechanic/laborer, and a part time/seasonal laborer. We have some of the best greens around and a firm but lush golf course. The rye fairways are wonderful, rough is great (until late July- we have single row irrigation), etc. With 3-4 guys we miss the little stuff like there may not have been weed-eating around each tree every day, but the stuff that really matters is great. The 3 guys get a fair salary and the part time gets a dollar or two over minimum wage. In a lot of ways, less can be more. Each person has to be held accountable for their portion, when a crew of 20 or so can blame another party. I love our set up. These guys work hard for 50 hours a week and it shows. They are a well oiled machine.
To back up my claim, you can ask Tim Liddy about his surprise when finding out 3 guys maintained our golf course. Our crew certainly opened my eyes to the waste that happens at so many courses all over.
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I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.
I couldn't let that one pass.
Who defines a reasonable life?
Does the college student living at home demand less of a wage tahan the retired person living on a fixed income even though they would perform the same work?
Who defines efficient?
How do savings make an economy less robust?
Why state your political views and then contradict them with potential real life effects of those views being implemented?
The whole point of this thread is lost on me. Why would the minimum wage need to be changed for golf and not other industries? The Walmart and McDonald's example makes the case that minimum wage laws should disappear. Let these companies pay the wage that they feel the work requires. Heck, different costs of living by geography further make the case that a federal minimum wage is ridiculous.
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Hi Jeff,
Those are great questions, but I had already decided I have no interest in defending or discussing my remarks. My intent was to make a couple of general, contradictory statements that I thought summarized the situation. Sorry.
I don't think Gary Sato's intent is to single out the golf industry, but rather to discuss the issue within the context of the golf business.
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Understood and thanks.
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Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.
Lower the corporate tax rate, the highest in the industrialized world, and businesses could afford to raise the minimum wage
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Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.
Lower the corporate tax rate, the highest in the industrialized world, and businesses could afford to raise the minimum wage
As a low and flat tax guy, could and would are very different things. How would you use that money in your business? It's a rhetorical question of course.
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I don't think Gary Sato's intent is to single out the golf industry, but rather to discuss the issue within the context of the golf business.
Thank you and its exactly my point. Like the food service industry, the golf industry and been silent on this issue. I thing the golf industry should be a leader and not a follower.
As I said earlier, this issue divides people much like many other national issues.
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After adding and removing the Peanuts cartoon twice, I've decided I shouldn't stir the pot any further.
But it was a funny cartoon!
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Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.
Lower the corporate tax rate, the highest in the industrialized world, and businesses could afford to raise the minimum wage
Thanks for that.
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/11169841_947171695295545_7825374418879681597_n_zpsggsyskzy.jpg) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/johnmkirk/media/11169841_947171695295545_7825374418879681597_n_zpsggsyskzy.jpg.html)
John Kirk,
Have someone explain the difference between Corporate tax rates and individual tax rates.
Corporations create jobs.
Try starting a corporation and creating jobs.
It's not so easy.
You and your ilk want to continue to burden corporations.
Then you and your ilk wonder why all the jobs have gone and continue to go overseas
Mike Young's question is the critical question.
Which side of the check do you sign, the front or the back ?
Karl Marx's attempt to tax the rich in order to make the poor their equal failed miserably.
Are you suggesting that we revert to that form of social engineering vis a vis taxation ?
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Dangit, Patrick, you're on this thread like a hawk. I had that cartoon up there for no more than 2 minutes.
You know damn well the politics of taxation and globalization are far more complicated than your simple paragraph response. However, blaming people of my "ilk" for offshoring jobs is a major stretch. Furthermore, in the context of this thread, nobody is offshoring golf course maintenance jobs to foreign countries.
I made a simple, balanced analysis showing the magnitude of the finances involved. Try looking at both sides of an issue, and have a sense of humor.
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"I thing the golf industry should be a leader and not a follower."
Posting reluctantly. I tend to believe that industries don't act as if they are a single unit. McDonalds is only one player in fast food and could be seen as acting to thwart pending NLRB action more than they are acting benevolently towards minimum wage workers. Walmart understand PR as well as anyone and can afford to pay more. Will positive PR pay off more than the cost of increased wages? Probably so. Other companies and industries may not have that luxury.
Leading the way for higher wages for relatively unskilled labor means leading the way for less affordable golf. Fair trade?
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Jeff & John,
What many seem to forget is that MacDonald's and Walmart are FOR PROFIT companies.
Most private golf clubs are not.
John, despite my desire, I don't have the time to expand my post beyond brief paragraphs.
Don't be so sure that the equipment isn't being manufactured offshore.
If a club's expenses go higher, so do their dues
The higher the dues go the harder it is for a club to attract and retain members.
With fewer members the dues are higher and the club has a more difficult time, financially.
Soon the death spiral sets in
And you and Gary really don't care because it's not your club and it's not your money.
Based upon the previous calculation, an additional $ 120,000 in expenses with a club with 240 members represents a $ 500 increase in dues.
And that's just for the green crew.
Now let's add the same or double the cost for the rest of the club's staff.
That's an additional $ 1,000 to $ 1,500 in annual dues.
And that's just the increase in labor.
How about health insurance increases, real estate tax increases.
Now you're at $ 2,000 to $ 2,500 in annual dues increases.
That will drive members out resulting in even higher dues for those who remain
Not so simple is it
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Hi Jeff, and the doggedly tenacious Pat Mucci,
No question that the underlying finances are more complicated than I presented. They are more complicated than you presented, too. I'm not sure that staff expenditures, or real estate tax increases are significant. On those two items I think you're reaching. Do you really want to take the time and figure this all out? I don't.
I disagree that "I don't care because it's not my money." It's not your money, either; I probably care about the same amount that you do.
The "golf business" is not doing well, and many clubs and courses would suffer if they raised the minimum wage significantly. In today's world, manicuring dozens of acres of grass to play golf is questionable at best. It is growing increasingly unreasonable. Golf as we know it is doomed; count your blessings.
On a personal level, I sympathize with the man who works 8-10 hours per day and makes $20k per year. That person will have a difficult time raising himself, or his children, out of his current socioeconomic status, and I think that's bad for America. He works hard, and he might be a very capable man who sires a brilliant, ambitious child, and that child has little chance at rising above his station in life. It is a serious class problem we did not use to have.
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Academic and public policy papers are written about this stuff and we have little chance of meeting the level of detail required to make this thread productive. One thing is certain, I would dread drawing Pat Mucci in the match play club championship. It would take more than the minimum wage to make my ass whooping worth while. I might pay to see him whoop up on someone else though. The price I would pay is affected by many economic factors (oh enough already)...
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Hi Jeff, and the doggedly tenacious Pat Mucci,
No question that the underlying finances are more complicated than I presented. They are more complicated than you presented, too. I'm not sure that staff expenditures, or real estate tax increases are significant. On those two items I think you're reaching. Do you really want to take the time and figure this all out? I don't.
John,
I'm not reaching, but you are just guessing.
I already figured it out.
I've sat on "House", "Finance" and "Green" committee's and Boards at numerous clubs for close to 50' years.
Each and every year, in the face of rising costs, we tried to figure out how to keep dues increases to a minimum.
It's no easy job.
What you also don't understand is that there are a lot of marginal members at clubs, many of them older long time members who are embedded in the fabric of the club, members we didn't want to lose for a variety of reasons. Dues increases of $ 500 or $ 1,000 were significant enough to cause those members to resign.
But that doesn't matter to you or Gary because you have a political agenda.
I disagree that "I don't care because it's not my money." It's not your money, either; I probably care about the same amount that you do.
Not true.
I do care and I care more than you because these members were friends of my dad's and friends of mine and the club was an integral part of their lives and I didn't want to see them have to leave an institution that was so near and dear to them.
Yet, you and Gary would just Jack the dues up to suit your political agenda, thus forcing many members to have to resign, AND leaving the remaining members with a larger financial burden.
The "golf business" is not doing well, and many clubs and courses would suffer if they raised the minimum wage significantly.
The "golf business" is not doing well for ne reason and one reason only..... Because the economy isn't doing well
In today's world, manicuring dozens of acres of grass to play golf is questionable at best.
So now you and your radical socialist ilk are going to tell me how to spend my leisure time
It is growing increasingly unreasonable.
"Unreasonable" by who's standard ?
The radical Left's ?
I notice that Obama plays golf at every chance he gets.
Golf as we know it is doomed; count your blessings.
Golf will be fine once the economy recovers.
I do count my blessings, but I also work hard so that I have the means to enjoy a game I love.
And neither you nor anyone else is going to tell me how to spend my leisure time or my money.
On a personal level, I sympathize with the man who works 8-10 hours per day and makes $20k per year. That person will have a difficult time raising himself, or his children, out of his current socioeconomic status, and I think that's bad for America.
We agree, but it's the politicians, especially the Liberals who drove business and jobs from our shores.
I went to a public school and got a great education.
I still remember my Junior High and High School teachers who devoted themselves to educating me.
But, the teachers unions have cultivated mediocrity and worse.
They've destroyed our educational system
I favor collective bargaining, but not when bad apples can't be removed from the system
He works hard, and he might be a very capable man who sires a brilliant, ambitious child, and that child has little chance at rising above his station in life. It is a serious class problem we did not use to have.
That's not true and We always had that problem.
"Brilliant, ambitious" children are fast tracked in our educational system
If you look at private schools and colleges they devote a significant portion of their budgets to "Student Aid"
Raising the minimum wage isn't the solution, bringing jobs with meaningful wages back to America is the answer.
If we don't start crafting intelligent "government-business" policies, policies that bring meaningful jobs back to America, it's only going to get worse.
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Sorry Pat, I'm feeling too happy and well adjusted to venture down this rabbit hole.
Pat called me a socialist.
;D
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The thing that irritates me about the current federal minimum wage (a number of states and cities have higher minimums) is the number of employees who can't survive on that pay and turn to taxpayer funded support such as SNAP. American taxpayers are subsidizing huge low pay corporations like Walmart and McDonald's, as well I'm sure, many private clubs. How is this right? I strongly favor an increased minimum wage for this reason.
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8) ya, know, maybe not... some background info, perhaps noise to some per http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-minimum-wage-chart.aspx
Summary
Currently, 29 states and D.C. have minimum wages above the federal minimum wage.
2014 highlights: Lawmakers in Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia and D.C. enacted increases during the 2014 session, while voters in Alaska, Arkansas, Nebraska and South Dakota approved minimum wage increases through ballot measures.
State Legislation
Minimum wage legislation database (2014 and 2015)
LegisBrief (February 2014)
States without: AL, LA, MS, NH (REPEALED IN 2011), SC, TN, ( must affect their lack of good course maintenance or sustainable gca?)
Sources: U.S. Dept. of Labor, http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm; and state web sites.
Notes to state table presented which shows mainly ~5-9 $/hr range, most every state has a different twist to things..
1 American Samoa: The Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 (Public Law 110-28) sets minimum wage rates within American Samoa and provides for additional increases in the minimum wage of $0.50 per hour each year on May 25, until reaching the minimum wage generally applicable in the United States. The wage rates are set for particular industries, not for an employee's particular occupation. The rates are minimum rates; an employer may choose to pay an employee at a rate higher than the rate(s) for its industry.
2 Connecticut: The Connecticut minimum wage rate automatically increases to 1/2 of 1 percent above the rate set in the Fair Labor Standards Act if the Federal minimum wage rate equals or becomes higher than the State minimum.
3 District of Columbia: In the District of Columbia, the rate is automatically set at $1 above the Federal minimum wage rate if the District of Columbia rate is lower.
4 The Maine minimum wage is automatically replaced with the Federal minimum wage rate if it is higher than the State minimum with the exception that any such increase is limited to no more than $1.00 per hour above the current legislated State rate.
5 The Massachusetts minimum wage rate automatically increases to 10 cents above the rate set in the Fair Labor Standards Act if the Federal minimum wage equals or becomes higher than the State minimum.
6 Minnesota: With the passage of H.B. 2091 (2014), the annual sales volume threshold was reduced to $500,000. For large employers, with an annual sales volume of $500,000 or more, the minimum wage is $8.00; for small employers, those with an annual sales volume of less than $500,000, the minimum wage is $6.50.
7 Missouri - In addition to the exemption for federally covered employment, the law exempts, among others, employees of a retail or service business with gross annual sales or business done of less than $500,000.
8 Montana: the $4.00 rate applies to businesses with gross annual sales of $110,000 or less; $7.90 applies to all others.
9 Nevada: $8.25 without health benefits; $7.25 with health benefits.
10 Ohio: $7:25 for employers grossing $283,000 or less
11 Oklahoma: Employers of ten or more full time employees at any one location and employers with annual gross sales over $100,000 irrespective of number of full time employees are subject to federal minimum wage; all others are subject to state minimum wage of $2.00 (OK ST T. 40 § 197.5).
12 Puerto Rico: Employers covered by the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) are subject to the Federal minimum wage of $7.25. Employers not covered by the FLSA will be subject to a minimum wage that is at least 70 percent of the Federal minimum wage or the applicable mandatory decree rate of $5.08, whichever is higher. The Secretary of Labor and Human Resources may authorize a rate based on a lower percentage for any employer who can show that implementation of the 70 percent rate would substantially curtail employment in that business.
13 Virgin Islands: $4.30 for businesses with gross annual receipts of less than $150,000.
Other Exceptions
Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Puerto Rico, Utah, and Virginia exclude from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act.
Hawaii, Kansas, and Michigan exclude from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act, if the State wage is higher than the Federal wage.
The Georgia state minimum wage is $5.15. Employees covered under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act are subject to the federal minimum wage of $7.25, but those not covered under the FLSA may be paid the state minimum wage of $5.15.
and for full disclosure;
i had a minimum wage job in summer 1968, washing delivery trucks for a commercial uniform laundry business... like $2.00 an hour, that sucked once i learned what FICA meant... so i took a Red Cross Lifeguard class at the Y, and got a $5/hr job.. that was much better.. also learned that min wage jobs are not careers or ever meant to be "life wages," just a place to start and get some experience
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Hey Guys,
I'm going to jump in here and take a shot at the underlying assumption which I think is just incorrect - that grounds crews are making at or near minimum wage. I can tell you in my experience as someone who has to manage a golf course maintenance budget that no one on our staff makes anything close to minimum wage. We have a fairly typical maintenance budget for a Northeastern private club.
We pay our guys $5-7 above minimum wage on an hourly basis because that's what we have to pay to get above average workers, but that's their wage rate for 40 hours. They're non-exempt employees so they get overtime at time and a half. I'd venture there isn't a golf course anywhere in the USA where the grounds crew doesn't get some overtime. Our guys work about 50-60 hours a week in season. In fact, the number of hours of overtime they're going to expect to get is a key piece of negotiating to bring on new guys. We recently lost a handful of guys to another club who offered them 32 hours of overtime. You do the math, but when all is said and done, these guys are bringing home well in excess of $15/hr.
Now assistant pros...that's a different story, but working on the greens crew at a golf course is not a minimum wage job pretty much anywhere in the Northeast.
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"American taxpayers are subsidizing huge low pay corporations like Walmart and McDonald's, as well I'm sure, many private clubs. How is this right? I strongly favor an increased minimum wage for this reason."
Actually, American taxpayers are subsidizing the recipients of the benefits. This has to be true because not every recipient is employed. For your logic to hold true then we must blame these low pay corporations for not only paying low wages but for not paying them to enough people.
It's a difficult question but one could easily argue that minimum wage laws are a way for government to dump assistance cost onto employers. I cite the currently delayed employer mandate for health care insurance as another example of this practice. Not saying that I am right but there are two sides to the equation. I recommend that you not feel guilty for shopping at Walmart of for that matter, buying anything on sale.
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Hey Guys,
I'm going to jump in here and take a shot at the underlying assumption which I think is just incorrect - that grounds crews are making at or near minimum wage. I can tell you in my experience as someone who has to manage a golf course maintenance budget that no one on our staff makes anything close to minimum wage. We have a fairly typical maintenance budget for a Northeastern private club.
We pay our guys $5-7 above minimum wage on an hourly basis because that's what we have to pay to get above average workers, but that's their wage rate for 40 hours. They're non-exempt employees so they get overtime at time and a half. I'd venture there isn't a golf course anywhere in the USA where the grounds crew doesn't get some overtime. Our guys work about 50-60 hours a week in season. In fact, the number of hours of overtime they're going to expect to get is a key piece of negotiating to bring on new guys. We recently lost a handful of guys to another club who offered them 32 hours of overtime. You do the math, but when all is said and done, these guys are bringing home well in excess of $15/hr.
Now assistant pros...that's a different story, but working on the greens crew at a golf course is not a minimum wage job pretty much anywhere in the Northeast.
Agree.
There is no way you can get any good employees under $10 an hour.
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"American taxpayers are subsidizing huge low pay corporations like Walmart and McDonald's, as well I'm sure, many private clubs. How is this right? I strongly favor an increased minimum wage for this reason."
Actually, American taxpayers are subsidizing the recipients of the benefits. This has to be true because not every recipient is employed. For your logic to hold true then we must blame these low pay corporations for not only paying low wages but for not paying them to enough people.
It's a difficult question but one could easily argue that minimum wage laws are a way for government to dump assistance cost onto employers. I cite the currently delayed employer mandate for health care insurance as another example of this practice. Not saying that I am right but there are two sides to the equation. I recommend that you not feel guilty for shopping at Walmart of for that matter, buying anything on sale.
Nice job of deflection, misdirection and obfuscation. I didn't say a word about benefits for UNEMPLOYED workers, I'm talking about EMPLOYED workers. Walmart and McDonald's et al are able to attract workers for a pay check below the poverty line because those workers are eligible for SNAP. Isn't that corporate welfare? So are the oil depletion allowance and big farm subsidies but that's a story for another day.
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I never suggested that you included unemployed people. What I did suggest is that it is taxpayers that subsidize all of those recipients (employed or not). That a corporation might pay a higher wage to some of it's employees, if benefits were not available, is not a taxpayer subsidy to the corporation. Neither is reducing my tax liability by using the cost method for the initial investment in oil extraction rights. But you are right, that is a story for another day.
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Hey Guys,
I'm going to jump in here and take a shot at the underlying assumption which I think is just incorrect - that grounds crews are making at or near minimum wage. I can tell you in my experience as someone who has to manage a golf course maintenance budget that no one on our staff makes anything close to minimum wage. We have a fairly typical maintenance budget for a Northeastern private club.
We pay our guys $5-7 above minimum wage on an hourly basis because that's what we have to pay to get above average workers, but that's their wage rate for 40 hours. They're non-exempt employees so they get overtime at time and a half. I'd venture there isn't a golf course anywhere in the USA where the grounds crew doesn't get some overtime. Our guys work about 50-60 hours a week in season. In fact, the number of hours of overtime they're going to expect to get is a key piece of negotiating to bring on new guys. We recently lost a handful of guys to another club who offered them 32 hours of overtime. You do the math, but when all is said and done, these guys are bringing home well in excess of $15/hr.
Now assistant pros...that's a different story, but working on the greens crew at a golf course is not a minimum wage job pretty much anywhere in the Northeast.
Agree.
There is no way you can get any good employees under $10 an hour.
In some areas you can get high school/college kids and/or retired people for under $10/hour + free golf ... that includes maintenance jobs.
I'm almost certain a few guys on my dad's staff make less than $10/hour and still pay their annual membership, but that's because they'd rather be out on a golf course both mowing and golfing than at home in retirement.
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So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?
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Only if as the employer, I get to pick that wage.
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So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?
I don't think I should be told what to pay anyone. The problem with minimum wage is that often you are paying someone more than they are worth....
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Relative to this thread I hope.
My Step dad is a golf course superintendent. He designed, helped build, and now runs the golf course
maintenance for the same course.
His course is low priced for southern California.
He has always believed in rewarding his employees for hard work, better pay. I used to do some work with him,
largely supervising when he was to be out of town.
His crew members, make more hourly, on average, than the crew at the mid/high end I work at. When I last looked a couple years ago,
probably 3-4$ per hour more.
Of course, he has a much smaller crew, and for the most part, can cover jobs in all areas of the operation. Good, hard working, and talented guys that get paid better. SOmehow, they produce a product that is well above many, with far less waste.
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Mr. Mucci et al,
Why was there NO private sector job growth in the US from 2000 to 2008 when the Republicans were charge. This not an opinion, it is a fact!!
Moderator, this thread is a prime example of what I thought the web site was to avoid in 2015. Please delete the whole thing ASAP.
Very nauseating.
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The point here is a "living wage" not just a minimum wage.
People on this site are from all over the world so the living wage is different in each. The example of $10 per hour in California is an example of an employer either taking advantage of an employee or just filing a disposable spot for a short time.
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Mr. Mucci et al,
Why was there NO private sector job growth in the US from 2000 to 2008 when the Republicans were charge.
This not an opinion, it is a fact!!
See below.
What's often left out of these statistics is the average pay per worker.
As manufacturing was forced offshore wages declined.
Do you believe things are better today than they were in 2002 ?
http://www.truthfulpolitics.com/http:/truthfulpolitics.com/comments/u-s-job-creation-by-president-political-party/
Moderator, this thread is a prime example of what I thought the web site was to avoid in 2015. Please delete the whole thing ASAP.
Very nauseating.
Don't disagree
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"Why was there NO private sector job growth in the US from 2000 to 2008 when the Republicans were charge."
Obviously they chose not to flip the job growth switch that is easily accessible to anyone that wants to flip it. Yes, now it is time to delete this thread.
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Relative to this thread I hope.
My Step dad is a golf course superintendent. He designed, helped build, and now runs the golf course
maintenance for the same course.
His course is low priced for southern California.
He has always believed in rewarding his employees for hard work, better pay. I used to do some work with him,
largely supervising when he was to be out of town.
His crew members, make more hourly, on average, than the crew at the mid/high end I work at. When I last looked a couple years ago,
probably 3-4$ per hour more.
Of course, he has a much smaller crew, and for the most part, can cover jobs in all areas of the operation. Good, hard working, and talented guys that get paid better. SOmehow, they produce a product that is well above many, with far less waste.
Pat,
This is actually probably the most relative post to the thread, thank you for sharing.
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So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?
I don't think I should be told what to pay anyone. The problem with minimum wage is that often you are paying someone more than they are worth....
Mike,
if you are a respectable, decent and honest employer then I would agree with you but so many employers, especially the bigger ones are not. On the other hand, if a company is employing someone who is not worth at least the minimum wage then they obviously are not capable of doing the job correctly or safely. I am not sure if that would make such a company either a good employer or business but I very much doubt it.
Jon
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So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?
I don't think I should be told what to pay anyone. The problem with minimum wage is that often you are paying someone more than they are worth....
Mike,
if you are a respectable, decent and honest employer then I would agree with you but so many employers, especially the bigger ones are not. On the other hand, if a company is employing someone who is not worth at least the minimum wage then they obviously are not capable of doing the job correctly or safely. I am not sure if that would make such a company either a good employer or business but I very much doubt it.
Jon
Jon,
I trust the market and system works....minimum wage is at best a starting point for an employee. The hourly system is the real problem...and piece work etc was a better system.
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"if you are a respectable, decent and honest employer then I would agree with you but so many employers, especially the bigger ones are not."
Well there you have it. A significant number of employers are not decent or honest. I guess those qualities are reserved for employees. The advice here is to never become an employer lest your soul be lost.
There is a job to be done. People enter into agreements to get that job done so that folks like us can chase a ball around the open spaces. I would quit the game if I thought that it was based on the workings of indecent dishonest people. Given that big employers are part of all commerce, I guess I should quit everything. Everything would be fine if we just paid the entry level employee a little more. Problem solved.
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Jeff,
Please keep posting. It's refreshing to know that there are some people left with principles. One's that don't wait for lawyers to tell one how to shape their world view.
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Jon Wiggett,
Would you identify/list those employers who are disrespectable, indecent and dishonest ?
Feel free to also list the names of those on the executive management team that run those companies.
Thanks
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I will never forget when airlines started charging fees for the transportation of golf clubs. So many people on this site, who were flying at their businesses expense, cried foul. We all know that the coincidence of great course to location of sales call was iffy at best. We have all seen raters play courses for free on top of travel paid by their employers. How bout the people on this site stop stealing from their employers so those entry level people can earn a fair wage?
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"Fair".
The most dangerous word in the English language.
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The avid golfer paradox: An avid owner creates employment by spending time on the course while an an avid golfing employee soon seeks unemployment.
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Mike,
how does piece work function in the golf maintenance world?
Patrick,
any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage. If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it ;)
Jeff,
I am not saying that it is rife but neither am I willing to stick my head in the sand as some do. It would be great to live in a world where everyone looked to create a win-win situation for all concerned. However, as we get one scandal after another to do with banking and big business avoiding tax, hundreds of well off people employing illegal immigrants knowingly and paying them a pittance whilst demanding long hours I am afraid I just do not see it.
Jon
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All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.
Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.
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Mike,
how does piece work function in the golf maintenance world?
Patrick,
any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage.
Jon,
You stated that it was mostly "big employers", so which of the "big employers" are violating the law and paying less than minimum wage ? ? ? [/size]
If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it ;)
Don't try to predict what I'm going to say, just base your response on what I've typed.
YOU made the allegation, ergo, the burden of proof to support your allegations lies with YOU, not anyone else.
So please, IDENTIFY/LIST those employers that you know are disrespectible, indecent and dishonest.[/size]
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Listed below, PGA job postings for California. This is the first page, no Cherry picking of jobs.
Mix of pay in the postings. The Southern CA courses aren't exactly making it easy to live in an expensive
part of the world IMO. But many are entry level I guess.
May 08, 2015
Jun 15, 2015
Assist Golf Professional/Pro Shop
North Golf Course
California
$9.00 - $10.00 per Hour
May 08, 2015
May 25, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Wilcox Oaks Golf Club Red Bluff, CA
California
$10.00 - $14.00 per Hour
May 07, 2015
May 31, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Visalia Country Club
California Between Fresno and Bakersfield
$13.00 - $15.00 per Hour
May 04, 2015
May 31, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional / Golf Shop Attendant
Whittier Narrows Golf Course
California LA suburbs
$9.00 - $11.00 per Hour
May 01, 2015
May 15, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
VALENCIA COUNTRY CLUB North of LA...nice suburb
California
$20,000.00 - $29,000.00 per Year
Apr 27, 2015
May 31, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional/Teaching Professional
Sunset Hills Country Club
California Not toofar from Rustic Canyon in Moorpark, CA
$9.00 - $10.00 per Hour
Apr 23, 2015
May 30, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Pebble Beach Company
California Think we can find this one
$10.00 - $15.00 per Hour
Apr 22, 2015
May 15, 2015
Assistant Professional
Swenson Park GC Above Stockton, CA
California
$13.00 - $15.00 per Hour
Apr 17, 2015
May 10, 2015
Golf Shop Assistant
Bella Collina Towne & Golf Club
California San Juan Capistrano/San Clemente area
$10.00 - $11.00 per Hour
Mar 18, 2015
Jun 15, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Mile Square Golf Course Long Beach
California
$10.00 - $12.00 per Hour
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Patrick,
any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage.
Jon,
You stated that it was mostly "big employers", so which of the "big employers" are violating the law and paying less than minimum wage ? ? ? [/size]
No I didn't.
If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it ;)
Don't try to predict what I'm going to say, just base your response on what I've typed.
YOU made the allegation, ergo, the burden of proof to support your allegations lies with YOU, not anyone else.
So please, IDENTIFY/LIST those employers that you know are disrespectible, indecent and dishonest.[/size]
There is no burden of proof on me at all if you don't accept it is correct then you prove it to be incorrect.
Jon
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All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.
Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.
+1
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All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.
Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.
+2
I had exactly one of those who after working his way up from the bagroom to a very solid,highly compensated position with me, volunteer to go to work for free for one of my previous mentors when there were no paid positions available(the same as I did, and at my recommendation)-He now is a leader in his field and makes a nearly unheard of amount of money for someone his age in our business, and pays it forward to MANY, many young people.
Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage, but rather a starting point.
Those expecting to have the minimum wage wage raised so they can get a raise will rarely rise above their current station.
Being comfortable isn't always a good thing.
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I may have missed it but I haven't seen anyone talk about the fact that there is typically a pretty good perk to working at a golf course --I worked on a maintenance crew on a course that had a 6 figure initiation and who's monthly dues were probably more than I made between May and October. I don't remember what I made /hour but I know the golf was worth a lot to me , I probably played more rounds that summer than 95% of the members.
Buck
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Patrick,
any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage.
Jon,
You stated that it was mostly "big employers", so which of the "big employers" are violating the law and paying less than minimum wage ? ? ? [/size]
No I didn't.
If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it ;)
Don't try to predict what I'm going to say, just base your response on what I've typed.
YOU made the allegation, ergo, the burden of proof to support your allegations lies with YOU, not anyone else.
So please, IDENTIFY/LIST those employers that you know are disrespectible, indecent and dishonest.[/size]
There is no burden of proof on me at all if you don't accept it is correct then you prove it to be incorrect.
Jon,
It doesn't work that way.
When YOU make an allegation, the burden of proof is on YOU to substantiate your allegation.
You stated that there were "big employers" were "NOT respectable, decent and honest".
Again, could you please identify/list them, OR, admit that you made a political/economic claim that has no basis in fact.
Jon
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Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage, but rather a starting point.
I am finding this thread a bit heartless. There or thereabouts that starting point is all a significant percentage of the adult population can expect to earn..simply because there are not enough good paying jobs to go around. Its a game of musical chairs and its a bit disengenuous to imply there are enough good paying jobs to employ everybody when this is far from the case. Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude seems to be thats life. Society has a choice, pay in benefits not to work or work to create an economy which can sufficiently employ its population...preferably making goods and providing services which the population will consume. Unfortunately, I don't think the US (and many most western countries) will ever be in the position to properly employ its people...partly because governments are unwilling to properly step in to do the jobs capitalism cannot; for instance long-term economic/educational and social planning. While capitalism is grand for many and some watered down form of such is the only realistic option for an economy, the government is not only in place to foster capitalism, but ALSO to ease the brunt of capitalism on the under and unemployed. Capitalism is a system rigged to screw a certain percentage of people no matter how well it works and the quicker people grasp this the sooner people can get over the idea of detesting "hand-outs". That is a burden society must bear or suffer the increased costs of malfunctioning society. This burden may seem extreme to some, but the alternative is much worse.
Ciao
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Unfortunately, I don't think the US (and many most western countries) will ever be in the position to properly employ its people...partly because governments are unwilling to properly step in to do the jobs capitalism cannot; for instance long-term economic/educational and social planning. While capitalism is grand for many and some watered down form of such is the only realistic option for an economy, the government is not only in place to foster capitalism, but ALSO to ease the brunt of capitalism on the under and unemployed. Capitalism is a system rigged to screw a certain percentage of people no matter how well it works and the quicker people grasp this the sooner people can get over the idea of detesting "hand-outs". That is a burden society must bear or suffer the increased costs of malfunctioning society. This burden may seem extreme to some, but the alternative is much worse.
First off you have no idea what you are talking about. We don't have pure capitalism, we have Italian Fascism in the US. Gov't/private sector limited markets. Prior to the income tax, fiat money, and the Fed. Reserve an immigrant shop sweeper could save half of his yearly earnings. That was when the US had the closest form to Capitalism. It was the highest standard of living for everyone. So you sounding off how we have pure capitalism is hog wash. When Gov't steps in prices and standard of living go down. You might want to study Hong Kong, and how they went from a 3rd world country to one of the highest standards of living. It's called capitalism. people were free to start business the day they applied for them. The US was founded on charity, and we have moved away from that over the last 60 years. Guess what, the middle class has shrunk. When Gov't gives handouts they destroy a country.
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All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.
Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.
+3
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This is the stupidest thread I have read in my 5+ years on GCA. Let's stick to golf course architecture!!
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Ben,
I am not sure if this is an example of the differing view points between the US and most of Europe but I can empathise far more with Sean's point of view than yours in this matter. If I am reading you correctly you are saying there is no one in the US on the poverty line which I find hard to believe. We had an experiment of deregulation of business internationally through the nineties and noughties which failed in a spectacular way in 2008. I for one believe it is time for companies to held to account not only through their bottom line by the shareholders but also for their ethics by the general public.
Patrick,
here is a list for you.
•G1 Venues Ltd, trading as Arta Restaurant, Glasgow, neglected to pay Ł45,124.00 to 2895 workers
•The Clothing Works Ltd (ceased trading), Corby, neglected to pay Ł17,007.08 to 38 workers
•Freedom Sportsline Ltd, trading as Foot Locker, London, neglected to pay Ł16,718.25 to 601 workers
•French Connection UK Ltd, London, neglected to pay Ł16,436.05 to 367 workers
•Minara Enterprises Ltd, trading as Fakenham Tandoori, Fakenham, neglected to pay Ł11,696.47 to 1 worker
•Sharon Makin, trading as Clever Clowns Day Nursery, Manchester, neglected to pay Ł10,572.08 to 6 workers
•UK Gaming Computers Ltd, Colchester, neglected to pay Ł6,036.99 to 2 workers
•Sarah Sloane and David Sloane, trading as Hawes Side Nursery, Blackpool, neglected to pay Ł2,825.58 to 3 workers
•Weston Hire Services Ltd, Weston-super-Mare, neglected to pay Ł2,819.79 to 1 worker
•Miss C Glendon & Miss S Glendon, trading as Ciara’s Tots Day Nursery, Manchester, neglected to pay Ł2,549.23 to 1 worker
•Florence Opportunities Ltd, trading as Morgan Edward Hair & Beauty, Carmarthen, neglected to pay Ł2,201.99 to 1 worker
•Champneys Springs Ltd, Swadlincote, neglected to pay Ł1,950 to 5 workers
•H M Bodyshop Ltd, Colindale, London, neglected to pay Ł1944.83 to 1 worker
•David Hayton Ltd, Penrith, neglected to pay Ł1,865.48 to 1 worker
•Caledonian Leisure Sales Ltd, trading as Hurleys Operations, Birmingham, neglected to pay Ł1,628.63 to 1 worker
•The Bell at Skenfrith Ltd, Skenfrith, neglected to pay Ł1,619.36 to 1 worker
•Miss Kerris Dunne, Mr Frederick Dunne, and Mrs Alison Ashforth, trading as Aerobrights, Stafford, neglected to pay Ł1,529.82 to 6 workers
•Mortgages First Ltd, Colchester, neglected to pay Ł1,475.63 to 3 workers
•Fullworks (Ayrshire) Ltd, trading as The Full Works, Irvine, neglected to pay Ł1,362.76 to 2 workers
•Crazy Divas Ltd, trading as Divas, Colchester, neglected to pay Ł1,316.74 to 4 workers
•Glenview Development Partners Ltd, Tullibody, neglected to pay Ł1,150.42 to 1 worker
•Toni & Guy (Wilmslow) Ltd, Wilmslow, neglected to pay Ł1,031.12 to 1 worker
•Vertu Motors Plc, trading as Bristol Street Motors, Gateshead, neglected to pay Ł1,001.42 to 1 worker
•PNP Media Ltd, trading as EBS Marketing, Manchester, neglected to pay Ł981.06 to 2 workers
•Mr Trevor Trutwein, trading as Ambitions 2, Gillingham, neglected to pay Ł903.32 to 1 worker
•Mr Anthony Miller, trading as Sportline Car Sales, Coalville, neglected to pay Ł779.70 to 2 workers
•The Conde Nast Publications, London, neglected to pay Ł745.48 to 1 worker
•Mr Yong Zhang, trading as Dragon Cottage Chinese Takeaway, Loughborough, neglected to pay Ł711.80 to 1 worker
•99p Stores Ltd, Northampton, neglected to pay Ł633.39 to 11 workers
•Mr M & Mrs M Hargreaves, trading as Little Windrush, Solihull, neglected to pay Ł631.51 to 3 workers
•Azad & Sons Ltd, trading as Pizza Hut, Norwich, neglected to pay Ł622.58 to 23 workers
•The Bull’s Head (Inkberrow) Ltd, trading as The Bull’s Head Inn, Worcester, neglected to pay Ł580.95 to 3 workers
•Glyn Harding, trading as GCH Transport, Frome, neglected to pay Ł485.87 to 1 worker
•Mrs Yoko Banks, trading as Ashley House Hotel, Harrogate, neglected to pay Ł405.07 to 1 worker
•Mr Daniel Smith, trading as Smith’s Hair, Braintree, neglected to pay Ł385.86 to 1 worker
•Pharmacy 1st Ltd, Gillingham, neglected to pay Ł363.55 to 1 worker
•Ms Sonia Duncton, trading as The Three Compasses Public House, Alford, neglected to pay Ł344.72 to 3 workers
•Mrs Geraldine Kelly, trading as New Hope Creche, Enniskillen, neglected to pay Ł344.30 to 11 workers
•Bounty (UK) Ltd, Welwyn Garden City, neglected to pay Ł284.26 to 1 worker
•Golden Phoenix Inns Ltd, trading as The Crown Inn, Bristol, neglected to pay Ł284.01 to 1 worker
•The Widd Group Ltd, trading as Widd Signs, Leeds, neglected to pay Ł253.50 to 1 worker
•Mr Garry Evis, trading as Woodside MOT and Service Centre, Middlesbrough, neglected to pay Ł232.55 to 1 worker
•Mr Keith J Pygall, trading Pygall Coaches, Peterlee, neglected to pay Ł198.34 to 1 worker
•Ranc Care Homes Ltd, trading as Maidstone Care Centre, Ilford, neglected to pay Ł178.76 to 1 worker
•Call & Deliver Ltd, trading as Pizza Hut, Heckmondwike, neglected to pay Ł163.45 to 9 workers
•Mr Fernando Rocha, trading as A Tasca, Ely, neglected to pay Ł152.28 to 1 worker
•Winners 2000 Fitness Ltd, Torquay, neglected to pay Ł130.78 to 1 worker
•Central Electrical Ltd, Chesterfield, neglected to pay Ł130.28 to 1 worker
The 48 cases named today were thoroughly investigated by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC).
The scheme was revised in October 2013 to make it simpler to name and shame employers that do not comply with minimum wage rules
to be clear, although you are clearly the champion of big business I am not saying it is JUST big business.
Jon
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Jon,
I'm sure there's no one on this thread that doesn't "empathize" with Sean.
That doesn't mean we entirely agree with his solution, or that we are heartless.
We can only draw upon our own experiences, and everyone is different.
Sean for example, being from Detroit, can probably comment far more intelligently on the auto industry than I can; and no doubt can comment on his observations of labor practices in the UK.
Having not been a long time employer or employee in the US golf business, he's probably less qualified to comment on this thread than I am.
As mentioned by an earlier poster, there are often many perks to working in the golf business to include playing privileges, meals, mentorship, and association with many successful people who often provide a helping career hand.
If one is looking for a living wage to support a family, brings minimal skills to the table and is unwilling/unable to utilize the time and/or energy to improve them, they're probably best suited for another field which is perhaps not as overbuilt and populated by those willing to sacrifice financial compensation for other benefits, and potential future gain.
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Jeff,
I do not disagree with what you have written in your last post and must stress that my points are more general not just golf specific. Just out of interest are you taxed on 'payment in kind' such as playing privileges such as is the case here in the UK?
Jon
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I might reference the recent thread on the happiest countries in the world:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60998.0.html
It is likely no coincidence that many of these suffer from European socialism where the minimum wage is negotiated by unions. I have not done the research, but I highly suspect the minimum wage is significantly higher than in the US. I also believe all of these have a fine standard of living.
Happy and living well. Not a bad combination....
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Let me guess- the real answer is a return to the gold standard ::)
Go see 'Ex Machina' if you want to see the future of the golf industry.
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Jeff,
I do not disagree with what you have written in your last post and must stress that my points are more general not just golf specific. Just out of interest are you taxed on 'payment in kind' such as playing privileges such as is the case here in the UK?
Jon
no.
What a perfect system-raise the minimum wage, and then tax them MORE ::) ::) ::)
and by the way, even our youngest kids(14-16) after completion and performance bonuses,make 50% more than the US federal minimum wage as cost of living is high out here.
To say nothing of being trained to caddy and make substantially more-which leads to future career doors opening via members looking to open doors for enterprising people.
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We had an experiment of deregulation of business internationally through the nineties and noughties which failed in a spectacular way in 2008. I for one believe it is time for companies to held to account not only through their bottom line by the shareholders but also for their ethics by the general public.
If you call Fed Reserve pushing Adjustable rate mortgages (Greenspan) and controlling interest rates (deregulation) then we are once again changing the meaning of words. Also in pure capitalism there would be no GSE (Gov't sponsored entities) such as Fannie and Freddie which were started in the progressive era. Is bailing out Lehman Brothers deregulation too? That is called gov't intervention. When the gov't bailed them out that sent out the message that other institutions would be bailed out too. Which promotes reckless behavior caused by intervention. Big corporations want regulations Jon, it squeezing out small business from taking any of their market share away from them. example.
When Carter deregulated the Beer industry, 150 micro breweries now exist in Michigan. Before large beer producers had regulations on the amount of beer brewed per year to prevent start ups from taking any of their market share. That is deregulation, and that is how small business prosper. Another thing taxing income is theft, prior to the income tax in our country people were more prosperous. Jon, you might want to re-look at the gov't talking points you have been fed to believe. Gov't induced problems that require gov't solutions is a recipe for disaster.
As far as the snide remark about the gold standard, which is laughable at best. When we were on the gold standard, one income households were the norm for the middle class, case closed.
This thread should be deleted, it has nothing to do with Arch, but I will not have Capitalism misrepresented.
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You forgot to mention a chicken in every pot and American jobs for American workers. I suppose you prefer the way the Fed dealt with the Depression to the way it is dealing with the current crisis. I also suppose that the economic prosperity of the 50's had nothing whatsoever to do with the post war boom. I love logic like this. Kid gets killed getting Ice cream in the World Trade Center on 9/11, so Ice Cream bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIKINhVNdSk
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On one hand, the US is among the wealthiest nations in civilizations history, and it's arguably immoral to allow poverty.
On the other hand, there is little doubt that the increase of government involvement in "welfare" has adversely impacted (with other factors) families and communities involvement and obligation to each other on an intimate level.
http://www.fljs.org/sites/www.fljs.org/files/publications/Murray.pdf
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Jeff,
I do not disagree with what you have written in your last post and must stress that my points are more general not just golf specific. Just out of interest are you taxed on 'payment in kind' such as playing privileges such as is the case here in the UK?
Jon
no.
What a perfect system-raise the minimum wage, and then tax them MORE ::) ::) ::)
Way of the world my friend ;) though it would be hoped that minimum wage was below the income tax threshold
and by the way, even our youngest kids(14-16) after completion and performance bonuses,make 50% more than the US federal minimum wage as cost of living is high out here.
To say nothing of being trained to caddy and make substantially more-which leads to future career doors opening via members looking to open doors for enterprising people.
Good to see you are part of a good employer culture :)
Ben,
I was commenting on the UK situation not the US.
Jon
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This thread should be deleted, it has nothing to do with Arch, but I will not have Capitalism misrepresented.
;D ;D
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Defenders of capitalism unite!
Of course there is a federally mandated membership fee.
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Jon Wiggett,
I didn't see one American company listed in your post.
Could you list the "big" American companies that failed to pay minimum wage.
Thanks
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Jon Wiggett,
I didn't see one American company listed in your post.
Could you list the "big" American companies that failed to pay minimum wage.
Thanks
http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/intern-suits
Vanderbilt University
Sony Corporation of America, Sony Music Holdings Inc. and Columbia Recording Corp
Donna Karan International
Sony Music Entertainment
Viacom Inc., MTV Networks Music Production Inc., and MTV Networks Enterprises Inc.
NBCUniversal, Inc
Warner Music Group Corp. and Atlantic Recording Corp.
News Corp. and Fox Entertainment Group, Inc.
Warner Music Group Corp. and Atlantic Recording Corp.
Condé Nast Publications
The Hearst Corporation
Fox Searchlight Pictures, Inc.
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How about some more:
http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php (http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php)
Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...
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Adam,
Thanks for your list.
Could you identify the states where these companies failed to pay the legally required minimum wage to their full time employees.
You can do it on a company by company basis.
Vanderbilt is not a company, so you can eliminate them.
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Adam,
Thanks for your list.
Could you identify the states where these companies failed to pay the legally required minimum wage to their full time employees.
You can do it on a company by company basis.
Vanderbilt is not a company, so you can eliminate them.
My name is not Adam.
I've linked the necessary information, so have at it. But, full time isn't a meaningful term here, so you're going to have some problems.
For the Black Swan case for example, the states were CA and NY, and at least some employees worked 40 hours per week and were not paid the legally required minimum wage. Please see the opinion. http://www.unpaidinternslawsuit.com/images/documents/memorandum_and_order_061113.pdf (http://www.unpaidinternslawsuit.com/images/documents/memorandum_and_order_061113.pdf)
The second list is totally different, and has nothing to do with the common issues of the first. The employees were likely long term, but there's probably no way to tell approximately how many hours they worked on an weekly or otherwise basis. Whether they are part time or full time simply isn't relevant. Plenty of these companies were also not paying legally required overtime, so from that you can guess that the employees were full time (if you accept that definition of full time). But it's a very long list, so...
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Getting back to the golf industry, there were a number of golf clubs; that's even one of the business type classifications in the data set. One (met area) country club had 44 violations (10 of which were FLSA related) including $125k in minimum wage violation back pay. There are at least 3 in the (high wage) met area, including one that is quite famous.
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I'm outraged at this one.
"A group of 1,245 dancers at a gentleman's club (a strip bar) in New York City have reached an $8 million preliminary settlement in a lawsuit over unpaid tips and wages, the latest in a series of employment cases in the exotic-dance industry. The Penthouse Executive Club misclassified its dancers as "independent contractors". The DOL also said the club had failed to pay the federal minimum wage and overtime pay."
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Interesting development today with Facebook. I'm not sure this happens in the golf industry but what Facebook is doing is making sure all of their contractors pay a fair wage of at least $15 with benefits.
Now tech powerhouse Facebook (FB) is entering the minimum wage fight, implementing new standards on benefits for its contractors and vendors.
Vendors or contractors in the U.S.who do a "substantial amount of work" with the social media company will be required to pay their workers at least $15 an hour. Other requirements include offering at least 15 paid days off for vacation, sick pay and holidays.
Additionally, individuals who do not currently receive parental leave will be offered $4,000 in "new child" benefits, according to a blog posted on Facebook by COO Sheryl Sandberg .
"We are committed to providing a safe, fair work environment to everyone who helps Facebook connect the world," Sandberg wrote in the post. "This is an important step forward in this work for us."
While other tech companies have boosted benefits for some security guards and shuttle drivers, Facebook is among the first tech giants to publicly take a stance on the minimum wage. The federal minimum wage stands at $7.25 an hour.
Facebook joins other large corporations that already have raised wages, including Wal-Mart (WMT), Gap (GPS), McDonald's (MCD) and T.J. Maxx (TJX).
The minimum wage debate is intensifying heading into the 2016 election. And now Silicon Valley is weighing in.
The question now is whether other tech leaders will follow suit and raise wages and benefits. "All of this helps to move the argument forward-the writing is on the wall," said Holly Sklar, president of advocacy group Business for a Fair Minimum Wage. "Too many Silicon Valley companies have employees with great pay and benefits and perks, but historically use contractors with little or no benefits."
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Adam,
Thanks for your list.
Could you identify the states where these companies failed to pay the legally required minimum wage to their full time employees.
You can do it on a company by company basis.
Vanderbilt is not a company, so you can eliminate them.
My name is not Adam.
I've linked the necessary information, so have at it.
But, full time isn't a meaningful term here, so you're going to have some problems.
"Full time employee" is a meaningful term.
It's the crux of the case/s
This case is less about the rate of wage than it is about the classification of the individuals.
Full time employees versus interns.
Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)
For the Black Swan case for example, the states were CA and NY, and at least some employees worked 40 hours per week and were not paid the legally required minimum wage. Please see the opinion.
http://www.unpaidinternslawsuit.com/images/documents/memorandum_and_order_061113.pdf (http://www.unpaidinternslawsuit.com/images/documents/memorandum_and_order_061113.pdf)
The second list is totally different, and has nothing to do with the common issues of the first. The employees were likely long term, but there's probably no way to tell approximately how many hours they worked on an weekly or otherwise basis. Whether they are part time or full time simply isn't relevant. Plenty of these companies were also not paying legally required overtime, so from that you can guess that the employees were full time (if you accept that definition of full time). But it's a very long list, so...
-
Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]
How about some more:
http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php
Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...
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Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]
How about some more:
Andy,
I checked the link for Northwest Airlines, under WHD, subset wage violations and found that the DOL site listed "NONE"
NO wage violations.
So, do you just throw names out there hoping that no one will follow up and do their due diligence ?
http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php
Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...
-
Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]
How about some more:
Andy,
I checked the link for Northwest Airlines, under WHD, subset wage violations and found that the DOL site listed "NONE"
NO wage violations.
So, do you just throw names out there hoping that no one will follow up and do their due diligence ?
http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php
Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...
Look at the data set.
http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/data_summary.php (http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/data_summary.php)
You'll see that Northwest Airlines had a $148839.25 "Back Wage Agreed to under FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) Minimum Wages."
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This is obviously not a golf debate but a political one, which will never be settled. One point missing from the minimum wage debate is the middle class. If you make $15 an hour and minimum wage is $7.25 then your doing ok. But you raise minimum wage to $15 you have just thrown all the people making $15 into the vicious cycle of poverty. So now you have pushed middle class closer to the poverty line not closer to the top. Now you have added to the % of people at the bottom. Simple economics tells you through more money in the fire someone has to pay for it. How? Prices go up? Services go up? Memberships go up? All the sudden it needs to be $25 and hour. Wages don't increase for middle class if you increase minim wage. Now prices and membership goes up, now the middle class is closer to playing a couple rounds of golf rather than having a membership. There will always be a top and a bottom raising the bottom just gets the middle closer to the bottom.
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Jon Wiggett,
I didn't see one American company listed in your post.
Could you list the "big" American companies that failed to pay minimum wage.
Thanks
Patrick,
there are no US companies on the list because I never mentioned any nor did it interest me. I made a claim, you asked me to substantiate it, I did. Just get over yourself.
Jon
-
Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]
How about some more:
Andy,
I checked the link for Northwest Airlines, under WHD, subset wage violations and found that the DOL site listed "NONE"
NO wage violations.
So, do you just throw names out there hoping that no one will follow up and do their due diligence ?
http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php
Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...
Look at the data set.
http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/data_summary.php (http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/data_summary.php)
You'll see that Northwest Airlines had a $148839.25 "Back Wage Agreed to under FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) Minimum Wages."
And if you search by WHD and Violation by Statute and Company Name, what you get is
Agency: WHD
Company Name: Northwest Airlines
Violation: Yes
Violation By Act: Fair Labor Standards Act-Minimum Wage and Overtime
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I am perplexed - the golf industry is struggling mightily, with rounds declining and costs increasing, yet we have reached the fifth page on why the wages in the golf industry should be increased...hello??? If people don't want to work at/on golf courses at prevailing wages they are free to move on!
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I am perplexed - the golf industry is struggling mightily, with rounds declining and costs increasing, yet we have reached the fifth page on why the wages in the golf industry should be increased...hello??? If people don't want to work at/on golf courses at prevailing wages they are free to move on!
I must agree. The market. Golf is just a recreation, not food, not shelter, (not medical care). Not essential.
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I am perplexed - the golf industry is struggling mightily, with rounds declining and costs increasing, yet we have reached the fifth page on why the wages in the golf industry should be increased...hello??? If people don't want to work at/on golf courses at prevailing wages they are free to move on!
I must agree. The market. Golf is just a recreation, not food, not shelter, (not medical care). Not essential.
I live in Canada and these are the numbers here;
HIGHLIGHTS OF THE CANADIAN GOLF ECONOMIC IMPACT STUDY:
The game of golf accounts for an estimated $14.3 billion of Canada’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP), which is up from the $12.2 billion reported in 2009*. Included in that economic impact are:
• 300,100 direct, indirect and induced jobs (342,000 in 2009)
• $8.3 billion in household income ($8.0 billion in 2009)
• $1.4 billion in property and other indirect taxes ($1.3 billion in 2009)
• $2.2 billion in income taxes ($2.6 billion in 2009)
• Canadian golf industry generates $14.3 billion in economic activity (GDP)
• Industry employment estimated at more than 300,100 golf related jobs,
• $533 million in philanthropic dollars generated at more than 37,000 events at golf courses
• Golf related travel within Canada generates nearly $2.5 billion in tourism annually
• Estimated 60 million rounds of golf played in Canada in 2013
Not an essential service, but, definitely a viable source of income for many and at least worthy of discussion. I imagine the US numbers dwarf the ones of Canada as well.
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This thread is all idealism at work...a bigger problem is how to handle the guys that are making $12 an hour now once you move the $8 guy to $15. The $12 guy should go to $19. Therefore a golf course that has 12 employees working a total of 500 hours per week would have a weekly increase of $7 dollars x 500 or $3500 per week or $16,000 per month. If a guy does 2000 rounds per month that would equate to an $8 perround green fee increase..... :)
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This thread is all idealism at work...a bigger problem is how to handle the guys that are making $12 an hour now once you move the $8 guy to $15. The $12 guy should go to $19. Therefore a golf course that has 12 employees working a total of 500 hours per week would have a weekly increase of $7 dollars x 500 or $3500 per week or $16,000 per month. If a guy does 2000 rounds per month that would equate to an $8 perround green fee increase..... :)
There you go getting all realistic....
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This thread is all idealism at work...a bigger problem is how to handle the guys that are making $12 an hour now once you move the $8 guy to $15. The $12 guy should go to $19. Therefore a golf course that has 12 employees working a total of 500 hours per week would have a weekly increase of $7 dollars x 500 or $3500 per week or $16,000 per month. If a guy does 2000 rounds per month that would equate to an $8 perround green fee increase..... :)
I am finding this thread a bit heartless. There or thereabouts that starting point is all a significant percentage of the adult population can expect to earn..simply because there are not enough good paying jobs to go around. Its a game of musical chairs and its a bit disengenuous to imply there are enough good paying jobs to employ everybody when this is far from the case. Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude seems to be thats life. Society has a choice, pay in benefits not to work or work to create an economy which can sufficiently employ its population...preferably making goods and providing services which the population will consume. Unfortunately, I don't think the US (and many most western countries) will ever be in the position to properly employ its people...partly because governments are unwilling to properly step in to do the jobs capitalism cannot; for instance long-term economic/educational and social planning. While capitalism is grand for many and some watered down form of such is the only realistic option for an economy, the government is not only in place to foster capitalism, but ALSO to ease the brunt of capitalism on the under and unemployed. Capitalism is a system rigged to screw a certain percentage of people no matter how well it works and the quicker people grasp this the sooner people can get over the idea of detesting "hand-outs". That is a burden society must bear or suffer the increased costs of malfunctioning society. This burden may seem extreme to some, but the alternative is much worse.
Mike
I fail to understand how you construed my post as a call to nearly double wages. I am fairly confident that not many well reasoned people would suggest this as a "solution" to under and unemployment. My point was there is no real solution for this issue in capitalism...unemployment and underemployment are built in as part of the competitive nature of the sytem. The question is, what is government's role in mitigating and alleviating this problem. I don't have the answers, but I think it is important to ask the questions.
Ciao
Ciao
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Sean,
I wasn't speaking of your post directly. I was and am saying that realistically speaking if we increase the 7.50 minimum to 15 then we will have to do the same to all hourly wage earners. As for government interference, the less the better. 80 percent of the NFL players are bankrupt within 2 years after their careers and 60 percent of NBA players within 5 years after their careers. And yet I have seen Hispanic golf course construction labor saving $25,000 a year while working at wages around 10-12 dollars. So, an increase to $15 an hour does zero good if not used properly.
-
"Now tech powerhouse Facebook (FB) is entering the minimum wage fight, implementing new standards on benefits for its contractors and vendors.
Vendors or contractors in the U.S.who do a "substantial amount of work" with the social media company will be required to pay their workers at least $15 an hour. Other requirements include offering at least 15 paid days off for vacation, sick pay and holidays.
Additionally, individuals who do not currently receive parental leave will be offered $4,000 in "new child" benefits, according to a blog posted on Facebook by COO Sheryl Sandberg ."
One has to wonder what kind of contracting work for Facebook would pay a minimum wage. Why doesn't Facebook get out of the contracting business and hire these people directly? The demand to see the contractor's HR policies goes away. They can avoid contractors hiring people on a 1099 basis where the contracted employee makes their own paid time off decisions. They can mitigate the price increases from such demands by eliminating the profit portion of the arrangement.
MacDonald's is under the thumb of the NLRB because of a theory that considers them co-employers of the franchisee workers. At risk is a ruling that would allow unions to organize, at the corporate level, workers that do not receive a check from MacDonald's. This would be much easier than a store by store approach which is all they can do currently. MacDonald's may have standards for use of the brand name (uniforms, cleanliness of stores, quality of food), but it certainly doesn't get as specific as Facebook seems to have done with these compensation standards. Good luck to Facebook when the NLRB comes a knockin.
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The reality is a $15 wage is coming.
LOS ANGELES — The nation’s second-largest city voted on Tuesday to increase its minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2020 from the current $9 an hour, in what is perhaps the most significant victory so far in the national push to raise the minimum wage.
The increase — which the Los Angeles City Council passed in a 14-1 vote — comes as workers across the country are rallying for higher wages, and several large companies, including Facebook and Walmart, have moved to raise their lowest wages. Several other cities, including San Francisco, Seattle and Oakland, Calif., have already approved increases, and dozens more are considering doing the same. In 2014, a number of Republican-leaning states like Alaska and South Dakota also raised their state-level minimum wage by referendum.
The impact is likely to be particularly strong in Los Angeles, where, according to some estimates, more than 40 percent of the city’s work force earns less than $15 an hour.
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What is the relevance to golf course architecture?
Take this discussion elsewhere - please!
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What is the relevance to golf course architecture?
Take this discussion elsewhere - please!
The relevance is cost of building and maintaining a golf course. It has major ramifications to the costs you pay to play golf.
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What is the relevance to golf course architecture?
Take this discussion elsewhere - please!
The relevance is cost of building and maintaining a golf course. It has major ramifications to the costs you pay to play golf.
I applaud the Los Angeles City Council
I have no problem paying more for the cost of golf if I know the employees are getting paid a fair wage. I play the majority of my golf in WA state (short drive across the border from Canada) and the staff there are very hard working and service oriented. Golf in the USA must easily the cheapest in the world although some yearly member subscriptions in the UK are quite economical. If my average round cost goes from $25 USD to $32 USD then so be it as I feel I am getting very good value for money for almost all golf I play in the USA.
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Can I raise my lesson rate by 50%? 8)
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Can I raise my lesson rate by 50%? 8)
Only if you're currently charging $10/hour.
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Can I raise my lesson rate by 50%? 8)
Only if you're currently charging $10/hour.
Touche'
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Sean,
I wasn't speaking of your post directly. I was and am saying that realistically speaking if we increase the 7.50 minimum to 15 then we will have to do the same to all hourly wage earners. As for government interference, the less the better. 80 percent of the NFL players are bankrupt within 2 years after their careers and 60 percent of NBA players within 5 years after their careers. And yet I have seen Hispanic golf course construction labor saving $25,000 a year while working at wages around 10-12 dollars. So, an increase to $15 an hour does zero good if not used properly.
How is it possible to save more than you make?
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Sean,
I wasn't speaking of your post directly. I was and am saying that realistically speaking if we increase the 7.50 minimum to 15 then we will have to do the same to all hourly wage earners. As for government interference, the less the better. 80 percent of the NFL players are bankrupt within 2 years after their careers and 60 percent of NBA players within 5 years after their careers. And yet I have seen Hispanic golf course construction labor saving $25,000 a year while working at wages around 10-12 dollars. So, an increase to $15 an hour does zero good if not used properly.
How is it possible to save more than you make?
The hispanic labor on most golf construction projects are making $40,000 with overtime hours...
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Mike...your statement about NFL players was likely based on a 2009 SI article which was not entirely factual. 1 in 6 NFL players are bankrupt after 12 years:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25150276/study-16-percent-of-nfl-players-go-bankrupt-within-12-years
I do not have accurate and up to date figures for the NBA. No matter not good.
As to your assertion of saving 25k on even 40k I'd need more than a sample of one for it to be credible. Even assuming no income tax SS would make take home 37k or so. That would leave 12k to live on. Basically impossible. I might also aid that working golf course construction is much different than maintenance as it is essentially a temporary job.
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$40K on $7.5 means working 5'334 hours a year or 14.5 hour days if you work every day. I am glad I do not work on any sites like this. ::)
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$40K on $7.5 means working 5'334 hours a year or 14.5 hour days if you work every day. I am glad I do not work on any sites like this. ::)
Why do you think the guys would only be making $7.50. Most are at least 12 dollars and closer to 15...they live 6-8 to an apartment and they save a lot of money....not all but many do...
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Mike,
you mentioned 7.50 as minimum wage but also said most earn 10-12 an hour which I missed first read but even at 12 dollars that way over 3000 hours a year which frankly isn't safe and I am sure is illegal. You may now push up the wage to 15 as in your last post which is on the limit but realistic.
Jon
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Mike,
you mentioned 7.50 as minimum wage but also said most earn 10-12 an hour which I missed first read but even at 12 dollars that way over 3000 hours a year which frankly isn't safe and I am sure is illegal. You may now push up the wage to 15 as in your last post which is on the limit but realistic.
Jon
Jon,
I'm talking golf construction sites,not maitnenance. A 60 hour week at12 dollars is $840 or over 42000 per year. It is not only legal but if you don't offer many of those guys overtime they don't want to work.
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Mike,
I guess it is down to different continents, laws and social expectations. 60 hours a week is way above the legal limit here in the EU.
Jon
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Mike,
I guess it is down to different continents, laws and social expectations. 60 hours a week is way above the legal limit here in the EU.
Jon
I guess. We have nurses here working 75 hours a week.
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There are places in the world where there's a law against working too much. There are other places where there is no such law.
Small wonder that a guy living in one of those systems has trouble engaging in political debates with a guy living in the other...
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The only limit on hours worked in most US states apply to jobs where a tired worker could injure others rather than themselves. Examples are pilots, truck drivers, nuclear plant operators (Homer Simpson ;D). Other fields like general labor, skilled labor and the trades work schedules more like Mike mentioned. 60 to 80 hours is the norm if the worker wants to make a real good living. Any move to limit hours of those jobs in the US would be political suicide. I negotiated lots of labor agreements when I was a pup and would have been skinned alive if I suggested that plant workers be limited to 40 hours of work in a week. :'(
Elsewhere in the world, laws limiting the hours worked were not conceived out of concern for worker safety. While politicians may say that is what they are for, they are really employment laws designed to ensure that more workers are hired. High overtime means less total employees. Limiting hours to 40 (or less in some countries) results in the employer having to carry more headcount. Who can say which system is best? One where the most driven and ambitious make the most money or one where more are employed but making less. Feel free to discuss. ;)
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I am so tired of seeing this thread rise to the top. It doesn't have anything to do with GCA. Please stop!
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Jeff,
Relax!
I love these threads as this is when I, as an outcast in distant Australia, get a glimpse of how American culture works! This American one seems to be working one hell of a lot…overtime! I feel that these threads round out GCA and allow one to get wee insights as to how others think and feel ..it fleshes out personalities. These threads give fabulous insights into the machinations and peculiarities abounding in America. Here in Oz patients would be scared to death if they were nursed by a practioner at the end of their 75 hour week! Simply amazing information and something I would never, ever have expected in a first world country but there you go.
I learn something new and extraordinary each time a political-socio-economic regarding the good old U.S.fo A.thread rears its head. So I for one am happy to see this type of thing in moderation as it makes the GCA community more real for me. Just the way I think I guess.
Cheers Colin
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Mike,
I guess it is down to different continents, laws and social expectations. 60 hours a week is way above the legal limit here in the EU.
Jon
I guess. We have nurses here working 75 hours a week.
What is that, 7-1/2 ten hour days?
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I might once again reference the 10 happiest countries:
1. Switzerland
2. Iceland
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Canada
6. Finland
7. The Netherlands
8. Sweden
9. New Zealand
10. Australia
I don't believe any of these have folks working absurd hours and most if not all have higher minimum wages than the US. Not a coincidence that if you're working, working, working you're probably not the happiest person around...
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The unhappy people in the USA don't have a job. You'd have to be an unemployed schmuck to respond to a survey asking if you are happy.
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Mike,
I guess it is down to different continents, laws and social expectations. 60 hours a week is way above the legal limit here in the EU.
Jon
I guess. We have nurses here working 75 hours a week.
What is that, 7-1/2 ten hour days?
Actually, it's 4 nineteen hour days, so they can enjoy a long weekend.
Signed,
Unemployed, sort of happy, with a self-assessed keen sense of humor.
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Nursing schools are full with huge waiting lists.
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They often will work two hospitals with neither of the others knowing the hours they had at the other.
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Well now they can quit one of the hospital jobs and go work the nightshift at Walmart. The forthcoming Walmart brain drain in rural communities will be far reaching.
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Jeff,
Relax!
I love these threads as this is when I, as an outcast in distant Australia, get a glimpse of how American culture works! This American one seems to be working one hell of a lot…overtime! I feel that these threads round out GCA and allow one to get wee insights as to how others think and feel ..it fleshes out personalities. These threads give fabulous insights into the machinations and peculiarities abounding in America. Here in Oz patients would be scared to death if they were nursed by a practioner at the end of their 75 hour week! Simply amazing information and something I would never, ever have expected in a first world country but there you go.
I learn something new and extraordinary each time a political-socio-economic regarding the good old U.S.fo A.thread rears its head. So I for one am happy to see this type of thing in moderation as it makes the GCA community more real for me. Just the way I think I guess.
Cheers Colin
Glad you were entertained, so was I.
This thread has run it's course. Its a political minefield, with interesting points by all.
Let's bring it back in 5 years to see who was right.
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"Let's bring it back in 5 years to see who was right."
Bad policies can last more than 5 years. The trajectory of mandatory wage laws is obvious.