Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Benjamin Litman on April 19, 2015, 11:35:36 PM
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Can golf courses embody the spirit of a large, diverse metropolis? In the case of New York City, Ferry Point answers with a resounding "yes." To the south, the silhouette of modern glass-and-metal skyscrapers, workplaces for the city's richest. To the north, the detail of Communist-era red-brick low-rise housing projects (referred to as "red-brick modernism" by the New York City Housing Authority), home to the city's poorest. To the west, a cross-marked cemetery, a smokestack-dominated power plant, and toll-booth-dotted highways leading every which way. And to the east, water, boats, and truck-heavy bridges. In the middle, on a former dump waiting for years to be defined by something, Ferry Point--a golf course funded by the city's most bombastic magnate and designed by the game's most prolific champion--somehow manages to reflect the seemingly disparate beats of the city's pulse.
I say this descriptively, not normatively. Plenty of criticism has been, can be, and will be leveled against Donald Trump and Ferry Point--I for one, shudder a bit at the symbolic value of the prominent Trump insignia and the black cast-iron gate that surrounds the property and worry that, at least in the absence of regular First Tee-like programs (which I hope, and trust, are forthcoming), the course might squander the enormous promise inherent in it. But there is no disputing that much of New York City, for better and worse, is on display here. To be sure, the clientele at a public course will always reflect the cost to play it, and, at Ferry Point, the $169 weekend rates for a walking resident (carts cost $35 per rider, yet another reason to skip them) means that your playing partners might well be members at exclusive private clubs (in the case of the twosome that joined us, Friar's Head) who have never even been to Bethpage. (With only a few longish green-to-tee distances, the course is easy to walk.) But at only twice the rate of a Bethpage, it's not too far out of reach for the true public golfer who shows up without any logo-adorned clothes at all--as the articles detailing who showed up to play the course on opening day attest. And, already, it has provided numerous job opportunities for kids who clearly have never seen, much less set foot on, a golf course. Their blissful ignorance is a welcome reminder that most golfers take themselves and the game far too seriously, and nothing that hard work can't overcome (assuming, of course, that their ignorance is worth overcoming in the first place). Growing up, my neighborhood was diverse enough to allow me to befriend many of these kids, and my job as an adult has allowed me to work on their and their families' behalf. So it was nice to see them before we teed off and heartwarming that the course's manager welcomed, and promised to relay, our compliments of their work after we finished.
But this is a site about golf-course architecture, so I'll stop there and turn to the course, which I had the pleasure of experiencing for the first time yesterday on a glorious, sun-splashed, and warm early spring afternoon. The surrounds at Ferry Point are so mesmerizing--both for their aesthetics and their symbolism--that the design didn't need to be great to make the course great. Fortunately, the design is great, so the pre-opening accolades showered on the course--our own, and Golfweek's, Brad Klein ranked it behind only Bethpage Black on the list of the state's best public tracks--now make good sense. Because the course opened only three weeks ago, I will say less than normal and let my pictures speak for themselves. What struck me most was the grandeur and scale of the place; as links or links-style courses go, the only other one that compares for me is Royal St. George's. Ferry Point is a big course, no doubt enhanced by its surroundings. But it takes great advantage of those surroundings, offering jaw-dropping views at almost every turn; far more than, to cite a nearby comparator, Liberty National. I have read reviews that criticize the course for too much sameness among the holes, but to the extent that is true--and I concede that it is, at least in part--it becomes apparent only in hindsight. While playing the course, again perhaps because of the diversity of the views, the holes feel fresh and fun (and play firm and fast, with impeccable greens). And, best of all, you want to return to play the course again as soon as you're finished. A day later, sure, I can say that the majority of the greens, as at May River, another Nicklaus signature design, are elevated above the level of the fairway (although there are enough at- or near-at-grade greens--at 3, 6, 9, 12, 16--to break what might otherwise be some monotony in the design) and that most of the long holes play straightaway (although, again, there are enough gentle doglegs (at 5, 6, 10, 15, 18) to vary the experience). But the fact is that all great courses, and links courses in particular, have design elements that repeat over and over again--not just because each individual architect has his or her own preferences, but because they all recognize that too much hole-to-hole variety leads to a disjointedness and lack of coherence that ruins the overall experience.
I have a similar response to those who say the course is too "fake." As our resident sage Peter Pallotta has helped clarify with his recent post of the year on realism, all golf courses are fake, and for good reason. Ferry Point didn't feel more fake to me than any other course I've played. Sure, it's surrounded by a city, not more greenery (although there is a park several hundred feet away on the southern side of the Whitestone Bridge/Hutchinson River Parkway). But the design--specifically, the many gum-drop humps and larger dune-like mounds--allows the course to fit as well as any could fit into that environment. A body of water does abut the property, after all, so a links-like design is what one would expect if a golf course were to be there, and, in many places, the shapes of the mounds mimic the buildings of the surrounding skyline to create an unexpected visual unity. In short, it works--and quite well, at that. Bravo, Mr. Nicklaus and especially Mr. Sanford (whom I now understand is responsible for 95% of the design and shaping of the course).
Now, enjoy the tour and go play the course at your earliest convenience. You won't be disappointed (to the extent you are, share your criticisms, as I did, with the course's manager after your round; to their credit, the staff seems genuinely intent on fixing inevitable early glitches).
Clubhouse and Practice Areas
Ferry Point takes its name from the Bronx park in which it sits, one of many at the base of bridges in the New York City area:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07770_zpsdwsmbvhj.jpg)
Together with the garish Trump insignia that guards the entrance (it is a Scottish shield, after all), the black cast-iron gate that encircles the entire property might, I fear, be offputting to some and suggest that, despite its truly public status, the course might not be for everyone; a "public welcome" addendum might help:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07771_zpstwusufr4.jpg)
In classic Trump style, the makeshift clubhouse (a larger, hopefully not-too-ostentatious one will be built in the next few years) is not your ordinary trailer; the yellow-and-white theme works wonderfully, especially in the awning-covered grill area on the back, to create a seaside atmosphere:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07772_zpsmfusbcgt.jpg)
Augmented by stellar service, the food is quite good (the "Ivanka" is one of the better Greek salads I've had):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07782_zpsvbtainei.jpg)
The view from the open-air grill isn't too shabby, either (to be clear, Trump's courses do not have Rolex clocks; they have Trump clocks):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07779_zps8lthpjpy.jpg)
For a public course, Trump Ferry Point has some of the better practice facilities I've seen; actually, they're better than those at many private courses I've been to. No wonder Michael Breed just opened his academy here. A massive driving range (TaylorMade range balls are provided free of charge) is the main attraction, but adjacent short-game and putting areas allow the golfer to fine tune all aspects of her or his game before teeing off:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07879_zps3hkk5pez.jpg)
The Throgs Neck Bridge, the less-prominent of the two bridges visible from many points on the property, frames the background of the short-game practice area:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07777_zps7xaobafr.jpg)
The large putting green affords wonderful views of both bridges:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07775_zpsach0ezvc.jpg)
The routing, and place mats, at Ferry Point:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07781_zpstc4jde6j.jpg)
Front Nine
The 1st, a steadily climbing and narrowing par 4, has just enough trouble off the tee--specifically, the (not pictured) highway up the left side--to demand the golfer's full attention; once in the fairway, the fairway rises at the same rate, and gives the golfer a similar feeling, as the first at Streamsong Blue:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07785_zpsf3jq3zkf.jpg)
A recent Jack Nicklaus staple--the centerline bunker--makes its first of many appearances at Ferry Point on the very first hole, although it is too far from the tee, well past left and right fairway bunkers, to serve as anything other than a visual hazard:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07869_zpshholpggf.jpg)
One of many attractive, dune-nestled green sites at Ferry Point is also found at the 1st:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07789_zpsckiulyab.jpg)
The view back down the 1st hole showcases both the Whitestone (right) and Throgs Neck (left) bridges:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07791_zpsx3yelp0v.jpg)
The second-longest green-to-tee walk (after 9 green to 10 tee) brings the golfer to the 2nd tee and the first view of the expansive, rumpled area that occupies the heart of the course:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07854_zpsmru7anov.jpg)
Looking off to the right of the 2nd fairway reveals two features that dominate the landscape at Ferry Point--man-made dunes/mounds and the Whitestone Bridge:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07795_zpsullmsm3i.jpg)
The nestling of green sites into large dunes continues at the 2nd, a large back-right to front-left green that sits diagonally to the fairway; given the hole's length, Nicklaus properly built a large chipping area short right, where most golfers will miss:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07801_zpskjzonaat.jpg)
The view left over the 2nd green features many industrial landmarks that not only scream New York City, but also recall the gritty surrounds of some of the great links of Great Britain (think the nuclear towers that, until recently, lorded over Royal St. George's):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07802_zpskzk1ijdj.jpg)
Each of the par 3s runs in a different direction; the 3rd, the second longest, is framed beautifully by the red-brick housing projects that dominate the north-facing views at Ferry Point; note the visual mimicry between the large mounds/dunes and the buildings themselves:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07803_zps4mkfgrci.jpg)
The 4th, an attractive gently climbing three-shot par 5 at the northern edge of the property (though seemingly reachable on the scorecard, it plays into the prevailing wind), is defined as much by its gorgeous views of the Throgs Neck Bridge (the golfer never gets closer to it), as by its devilish perched green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/5994bf62-db44-4bcd-8e31-2f94419d3bb9_zpsmmtvdhlo.jpg)
Accounting for the into-the-wind nature of the shot, the layup area on the par-5 4th is ample:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07812_zpslzbfxts9.jpg)
The narrowness of the 4th green is accentuated by steep falloffs all around--here, at the front:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07816_zps0x2udu0p.jpg)
Here, at the back:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07961_zpseunomcpn.jpg)
And, finally, here, at the right:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07960_zpstseee8pi.jpg)
On first playing, the direction of the 5th, one of the few doglegs at Ferry Point, is not apparent from the tee; the turn to the right comes into view two hundred yards down the fairway and reveals another attractive perched green site surrounded by gum-drop mounds:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07819_zpsucsdp1k7.jpg)
The reverse view from behind the 5th green reveals the dogleg-right orientation of the hole; the tee is next to the snack hut in the distance on the left (currently, the snack hut is the only place to get water on the course, but the course's manager promised water jugs throughout in the very near future):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07822_zpsn32quixo.jpg)
A strategic double-dogleg par 4--the tee shot plays left to right uphill, while the approach plays right to left downhill--the 6th hole affords the first direct view of the silhouetted Manhattan skyline to the south:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/8a418983-1d98-4610-ae52-383c36a4f476_zps3e55tm5b.jpg)
The aggressive line off the tee, and the one affording the better view of the green around the corner to the left, is to the right of the centerline bunker (out of bounds, and a cemetery, lines the right side of the hole):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/18e02dd8-82d2-437d-b3d2-3c0f6b3a10e8_zpscmxwa5w2.jpg)
The safe line left of the centerline bunker affords beautiful views of the Whitestone Bridge...
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07833_zpsmhdrfzto.jpg)
...but leaves this partially obscured view of the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/5e20b07f-c197-4abd-ab94-a0f405cc5979_zpspbdjy6rt.jpg)
The right-to-left downhill nature of the approach at 6 is evident from this reverse view from back right of the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07841_zpss7ea7lx1.jpg)
An excellent short and drivable Cape hole, the 7th calls for a fade from the tee--at once helped and hindered by the prevailing left-to-right wind:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/16da3cee-7cd7-45b4-a014-78f968345396_zpseo6ctlmo.jpg)
A sprawling bunker complex guards the final 20 yards of the left side of the fairway all the way to the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07851_zpsamx61zl8.jpg)
This reverse view of the 7th reveals that a long miss is actually a safe one:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07852_zpsoplroxt0.jpg)
The second par 3 at Ferry Point, the 8th, plays slightly downhill to the north and is surrounded on all sides by mounds and dunes, with the Throgs Neck Bridge in the distance; the setting reminded me somewhat of the glorious 13th at Barnbougle Dunes:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07853_zpsrqtihak9.jpg)
The setting for the 8th green becomes more appealing as the golfer walks through the depression between the tee and the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07861_zpsuu4slsum.jpg)
The most beautiful tee shot on the course, with another centerline bunker to navigate, the 9th plays downhill and slightly to the left toward the Whitestone Bridge (thank you for indulging my penchant for black-and-white pictures):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07864_zps6ujtyjyu.jpg)
A tee shot down the right side, or even in the right rough, rewards the golfer with an open view of the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07871_zpsye3aq7ob.jpg)
Conversely, a tee shot down the left side leaves an approach dotted with obstacles:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07872_zpsniankwcs.jpg)
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Back Nine
The back nine starts with a comfortable tee shot to a wide fairway; the reverse view toward the tee reveals the 10th's width and the full expanse of the architecturally underrated Whitestone Bridge:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07880_zpszxgs8570.jpg)
The approach into the 10th is my favorite on the course; a slight turn to the left reveals not only another visually soothing dune-nestled green site, but the industrial landmarks to the west (the three-headed smoke stack, the cross standing sentinel over the cemetery) that recall some of the world's great links:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07883_zpsttd6brp0.jpg)
Sure, Ferry Point is "fake," but results like this greensite make you care not one bit at all:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07884_zpscbbggocv.jpg)
The reverse view at the 10th reveals a peek-a-boo corridor to the 8th green on the right:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07893_zps6jvfralm.jpg)
From the tee, the 11th hole affords glorious views over the course--here, to the 2nd green, across a compelling dunescape, to the left:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07897_zpsmxeadvrj.jpg)
The 11th itself, a short par 4, plays downhill to a relatively narrow fairway dotted with bunkers; big hitters can carry the trouble by trying to drive the green (as two in the group ahead attempted), while the shorter hitters (or those waiting on slow foursomes ahead) need to thread long irons between the sand-filled mines:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07898_zpswpdqpmfs.jpg)
After a downhill tee shot, the approach to 11 green plays slightly uphill; note another centerline bunker, although this one is closer to the left edge of the fairway:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07900_zpsbxzk86wv.jpg)
A center bunker also guards the entrance to the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07902_zpsbyc36ukb.jpg)
The grandeur of Ferry Point is evident in this reverse view back down the 11th:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/140e4bb8-2892-411b-9673-d98219a7339e_zpsl2znrtol.jpg)
One of the more visually appealing flat par 3s I've ever played, the 12th, a short par 3 playing into the wind, induces tranquility:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07909_zpsmxzlteln.jpg)
Given the narrowness of the green and the into-the-golfer direction of the wind, the front-right bunker is even more of a magnet for tee shots than it normally would be:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07914_zpsuaix8gau.jpg)
The reverse view from behind the 12th green reveals the 5th green in the distance on the right:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07916_zpszmfanlrj.jpg)
The downhill tee shot to another gently climbing fairway, here at the 13th, reveals the silhouetted Manhattan skyline in all its early evening glory:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07923_zps8hdr4mdt.jpg)
Instead of a bunker, a knob serves as the centerline fairway hazard at the 13th:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07928_zpsjkvgrzm4.jpg)
A high-lipped bunker short of the putting surface plays with depth perception, as it sits well in front of the green's edge:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07931_zpsnyy30qlg.jpg)
This view from the front right of the 13th green shows the ample room beyond the bunker--to the left of the frame--and before the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07937_zpsyoqyi5en.jpg)
The reverse view from the back left of the 13th green is almost as compelling--and certainly better lit--than the forward view:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07947_zpsv0p1j5ks.jpg)
Few things in golf are better than witnessing the movement of an early evening light over humps and hollows:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07940_zps63uigp7l.jpg)
Bridges, in their at once horizontal and vertical orientation, are symbolic, aspirational structures, and Ferry Point makes good use of the two it has as neighbors--here, the Whitestone Bridge rising over the 15th green, as seen from the 14th tee:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07949_zps0yqss4oz.jpg)
Running parallel in the opposite direction of the 13th, the 14th is another par 4 that plays downhill to a fairway lined with bunkers and mounds and uphill to a green set diagonal to the fairway; again, because 14, like 2, is a long par 4, Nicklaus wisely built a large chipping area short right of the green, although chips from there will again have to carry two small green-fronting bunkers:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07953_zpscnlim7ts.jpg)
Depending on how far short and right the miss is on the second shot, the golfer playing from the chipping area will have to contend with this center-front bunker (well short of the green):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07957_zps8av3h4wa.jpg)
Or this right-front bunker (adjacent to the green):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07958_zpsccsp26tk.jpg)
The aura of the uphill tee shot on the par-5 15th, starting from the northeast corner of the property and running south, took on special significance for me as I was greeted by the sounds of an ice-cream truck and children walking home for dinner on a spectacular early spring evening:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/31c0adb1-fdae-4920-bf6b-98eac55bb8d8_zps47prra2h.jpg)
A peaceful view back over the 14th green from the right of the 15th fairway:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07965_zpsmz2aexe9.jpg)
Upon cresting the hill on the 15th, the fairway plateaus and turns slightly to the right for the second and third shots (the former of which must contend with another centerline fairway bunker):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07966_zpsz931tcti.jpg)
For a three-shot par 5, the 15th probably has too much short grass for easy recoveries around the green, but the resulting aesthetics can't be questioned:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07971_zps0luhvswt.jpg)
Another inspiring view, again replete with sun-kissed knobs and mounds, back down the 15th:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07974_zpsqh4lnybd.jpg)
The 16th plays straight downhill, but into the wind, toward the East River:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07977_zpsz6q14fh8.jpg)
The approach to the 16th, especially for drives pushed right (predictable given the wind direction), must contend with a marsh area to the right of the fairway that extends to a bunker short right of the green:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07979_zpsuoikclyx.jpg)
One of the few greens that is set parallel, as opposed to perpendicular or diagonal, to the fairway, the 16th also substitutes the natural framing of the East River (behind) and the Whitestone Bridge (right) for the manufactured dunes that frame most of the other greens at Ferry Point:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07985_zpskmsfzi8i.jpg)
The tee on the par-3 17th, which works west away from the East River, affords beautiful views of the sunset:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07988_zpsjoocigu0.jpg)
A medium-length par 3, the 17th plays uphill to a green framed by large bunkers, the three-headed smoke stack in the distance, and huge dunes behind and to the right (these dunes also frame the right side of the tee shot on 16, which runs parallel and in the opposite direction):
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC07993_zpsaquflnbm.jpg)
The home hole is a reachable par 5 that is relatively open off the tee:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC08000_zpszjg4gwmu.jpg)
A marsh lines the lower-left side of the fairway:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC08009_zpsnko7n8nd.jpg)
And, together with fronting bunkers and an upslope, must be carried to reach the green in two; a prudent layup to the right side of the fairway provides the more direct approach:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC08013_zps21nxkv4k.jpg)
A view from the mounds in front of the clubhouse out over the 18th green, with the Throgs Neck (left) and Whitestone (right) bridges in the distance:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/b7f5c3ee-a55d-4f9d-9fac-5b4a2cfb5ecd_zpsq6itsswu.jpg)
A late-afternoon round at Trump National Ferry Point, ending in the glow of dusk, is simply a must play:
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/bsl5/DSC08021_zpslpzluudf.jpg)
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Great stuff, Benjamin. Really enjoyed the read and the photos.
Course has really greened up in the two weeks since I was there.
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I feel like the artificial mounding could have been done better.
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+6.02 x 10e23
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I'm sure if I was still a public golfer living in Manhattan that this would instantly be part of the rotation and possibly my go-to course given the other options nearby. Anyone had the $14 Trump Hot Dog?
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Great tour Benjamin.
Maybe they could create some sort of artisan set up like in the UK. Only in this case they may be offering people from the communist buildings a discounted rate to emphasize equality of opportunity.
For the record, I've been in quite a few former communist countries and can't remember too much red brick. Although a fair bit of dull grey and buildings covered in soot due to burning of coal. Just saying though I do love the excellent descriptions you are writing!
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All, many thanks for the kind words.
Jon: I imagine that the significantly higher temperatures over the last week have contributed to the greening/growth of the course. It was 75 degrees on Saturday when I played. I'm curious to see how long it takes for the fescue to grow in, although, like you, I fear that it will slow rounds to a crawl. The fescue might well look prettier, but without it, the course has an aesthetic grit that makes it fit better with its surroundings. And not losing balls always beats the alternative.
Joe: Instead of asking for a translation, I'll just say thank you for your numbers (and also your own photo tour, which is, as always, beautifully done).
Jud: Given the price, I initially thought that Ferry Point would be one and done for me. But it's so good, and such a great experience (replete with great practice facilities that I can use for as long as I want), that I can justify playing it several times a year, even if it's not in my regular public rotation along with La Tourette, Split Rock, and Bethpage. To me, hot dogs in New York City should be purchased at (a) a hot-dog stand, (b) Gray's Papaya, or (c) Nathan's in Coney Island, all for less than $5. But if I try the Trump version next time, I'll let you know.
David: I'd be curious to hear more about the UK's artisan setup; it's a model that sounds promising based on what you wrote, but I imagine there is more to it. As for the architecture, thank you for calling me out. I appreciate, even love, architecture (my second-favorite course in college was "The Philosophy of Architecture"), and I am pretty familiar with Communist-style architecture in Europe, so I should get my facts straight. To be frank, I wanted to finish my post last night before the work week, so I didn't research that particular reference as I should have. Now that I have, I have changed the reference from "Communist-style" to "Communist-era," as the red-brick projects--publicized by the New York City Housing Authority as "red-brick modernism"--sprung up in the 1930s. I still think there is a lot of Communist inspiration evident in the buildings--as much in their function as in their form--even if the materials used are different. And FWIW, one of the principal designers of those projects was a German immigrant.
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Ben, this is another fantastic photo tour. Thank you. Your lively descriptions of the varied surroundings of the course (bridges, houses, industry, humanity, etc) are much appreciated. Those aesthetics look to be a great asset.
But I must admit that, architecturally, my first reaction to the FP photo tours is that the course looks a bit humorless and devoid of quirk. Like another brawny faux-links that missed the opportunity to import some of the fun and personality of the great links courses. Ben, am I off base? What was your feeling on the ground?
As a fellow New Yorker, I'm very thankful for the existence of an additional golf course. I've been waiting for Ferry Point for a very long time and will definitely play it somewhat regularly. But so far, I'm not seeing anything that's as interesting as the wild and never-boring greens at Marine Park (my home NYC course and the closest in style to FP).
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Thx..nice pix.
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For a public course, Trump Ferry Point has some of the better practice facilities I've seen; actually, they're better than those at many private courses I've been to. No wonder Michael Breed just opened his academy here.
Here's hoping the highway noise drowns out Breed's prepubescent shrieking.
It does look like a cool place.
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Jason: I actually didn't hear the highway much at all during the round, although admittedly that might have something to do with being a native New Yorker. Go easy on Breed; sure, he shrieks at times on his show, but you have to admit that he dispenses an incredible amount of sage advice in a short period of time and with great articulation. Without the glow of the camera, I imagine he's great--and shriekless--in one-on-one settings.
Mark: Many thanks for the kind words; glad you enjoyed the tour. I need to go back and replay Marine Park; the first time, I was a single surrounded by foursomes, so my round was spent playing through group after group and carefully removing glass shards from the bunkers to play my ball.
As for the architecture of Ferry Point, a question: Can a course's architecture ever truly be separated from--i.e., evaluated independently of--its aesthetics? To me, the answer is no, which is why Ferry Point is great. With that in mind, I'll try my best to answer your question. In college, I played on the baseball team my freshman year. Unfortunately, the coach, a former major-league pitcher, was so intent on getting his players drafted into the professional ranks that he forgot he was coaching college baseball. Players were, in fact, drafted, but our team set the worst record in school history; we played a professional game that we simply were not suited for. A similar, though less-harsh, criticism can be applied to Ferry Point. I take Trump seriously when he says he built Ferry Point with professional tournaments in mind. After all, many of his courses have already landed professional tournaments. That self-imposed mandate is probably why the course lacks the quirk and personality that we here on GCA love so dearly--but that the pros, for the most part, do not. Remember that the pros hate Royal St. George's--one of the great links of the world, as Sean's superb winter tour brilliantly demonstrates--for its "quirkiness" (read: lack of predictability), but love Muirfield for its (relative) lack of quirk and "straightforward," "it's all in front of you" design. Given how much the pros love straightforward, no-hidden-elephant designs--think Medinah and Firestone--part of me wonders how highly they would rate Augusta National if they didn't have to play it every year. Would we hear more Stacy Lewis-type criticisms (recall her comments about Royal Melbourne)? As Geoff Ogilvy has been quoted as saying, many of the holes at Augusta National, if built today, would be laughed at.
The question then becomes whether a course built with professionals in mind works as a municipal course for the larger public. If it were a new-age resort course at, say, Bandon or Streamsong, the answer would be no--but that's because the people who play there, by and large, represent a more golf-savvy (and golf-course-architecture-savvy) segment of the "larger public." But it's not a new-age resort course; it's a high-end municipal course in the heart of a sprawling metropolis with a diverse clientele. As such, I think it works well, as (relatively) quirkless designs allow more people of all levels to enjoy themselves.
With all that said, Ferry Point does have its share of quirk, charm, and personality--just perhaps not in the doses we here on GCA would prefer. The green surrounds provide plenty of interest and opportunity for shotmaking, even if the greens themselves are relatively uninteresting. As noted in my review, there are enough dogleg or slight-dogleg long holes (including a double-dogleg par 4 at the 6th) to add variety to the tee game. Although not awash in great individual holes, the course coheres quite well and has ample variety, with long par 4s and drivable ones (including the Cape Hole at the 7th), reachable and three-shot par 5s, and long and short par 3s running in different directions. And, who knows, maybe in many years' time, centerline bunkers--of which there are plenty--will be deemed "quirky." In the end, the course does a great job accommodating as many interests as possible, and, again, in light of the jaw-dropping, and frankly, unusual nature of the aesthetics--which are with you on every hole and for every shot--the last thing you'll be thinking on walking off the 18th green is that you wish there had been more quirk in the design. Ferry Point, in its own way, has personality in spades.
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It appears as though the range utilizes the new, modern "mats" rather than allowing one to hit off the grass. Will this always be the case? Seems a bit disappointing for a facility that charges $50 to use their range and short game area.
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Steve: I, too, was disappointed that the mats were in use the day I was there, but I was told that is not the norm. Indeed, most grass ranges have mat-only days, including at Harbour Town, FWIW. I was unaware of the $50 fee, which I assume is standalone. If you play the course, it's free of charge.
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Thanks for the well thought out reply, Ben. All very good points.
As far as Marine Park, they've been doing a wonderful job rehabbing the course and each year it gets better and better. The greens were already in the best shape of any public course in the area and they are trying to catch the rest of the course up. It has many features that we rave about here on GCA. The driving areas are large and the greens are immensely challenging, requiring very smart approaches. You can play on the ground or in the air. It suffers from dullness and a lack of variety off the tee, but they have begun implementing things to help rectify that a little. Too many of the greens are pushed up, but they always have a generous opening and once on, there's never a dull moment. From a macro view, it definitely adheres to the principle that each shot get progressively more challenging from tee to green.
It still has a ways to go but I'm thankful that I have the option so close to my home (even if it takes 30 harrowing mins to drive the 5 miles down Flatbush).
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Correct. If you pay $250 then the use of the range is "free." Kind of like if you pay $14 for a hot dog, the bun is free.
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Thanks for the details on Marine Park, Mark; perhaps I'll join you one day. If I recall correctly, it held a qualifying event for the MGA Public Links recently, so I trust you that it's better than I recall (although, to be fair, my memory is more about the experience than the course).
Steve: I now see the $50 "non-round practice facility fee" on the website. But that's not as expensive as it seems. The two standalone (i.e., non-course) ranges I've been to in the city--Randall's Island and Chelsea Piers--are comparable, with a few built-in assumptions. At Randall's, my preferred range (even if it's much farther from home), a large bucket of balls (110 balls) costs $14. If you want to hit off grass tees (they apparently have a few now), that's an additional $14. At Chelsea Piers, $50 gets you 318 balls during off-peak hours and 193 during peak hours. At neither Randall's nor Chelsea can you practice your putting on a grass putting green (both have synthetic putting greens instead). At neither Randall's nor Chelsea can you practice your short game on actual turf and from actual bunkers. And at neither Randall's nor Chelsea can you hit unlimited balls, at no additional charge, once you gain access. My biggest problem with the $50 standalone practice fee at Ferry Point is that it will discourage locals from using the facility, but, again hopefully through First Tee-like programs, that issue can be mitigated. Otherwise, it's not a bad deal at all when you consider what you get.
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Oh, interesting. Ben, you're saying that the $50 gets you unlimited balls and not just the access to then pay for balls?
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I honestly don't know the answer, Mark, but there is no ball dispenser. Balls are just provided on the range (in nicely arranged pyramids, with huge buckets of extras sitting nearby) and at the short-game and putting areas. So, unless someone is there monitoring who is and isn't a round player, I can't see how it's not unlimited.
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Benjamin, really enjoyed the pictures and all you had to say about the course.
The price to play speaks for itself. Plus, hot dogs at $14 and hamburgers $17, this is a public course in name only, but they certainly have the right to charge whatever they want. The course looks very wide and forgiving, the type of place that players of all abilities can enjoy.
Thanks for sharing, the architecture and imagination that went into this club given the setting is truly amazing!
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My understanding is that Trump has the concession to operate the course. But, yet the name sounds like he owns it. How did the name "Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point" come about?
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GJ: I did some digging online and found this: "Then it went through a 12-year delay and millions in cost overruns, and only got completed because of the financial involvement of Donald Trump, who got naming rights for the course for 20 years as a result." So it won't always be called Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point--unless, of course, he manages to renegotiate.
Eric: Thanks for the kind words. Regarding the course's width, you are right that it is plenty wide off the tee (though not Streamsong-wide), although if/when they grow the fescue, playability (and pace of play) will decline a bit.
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thanks Benjamin
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I will preface my comments by stating that I am judging this course solely on the above photos:
How is this course any less manipulated or clearly manufactured than the desert courses?
I find it stylistically jarring and bordering on offensive in the way it has been imposed into its surroundings that have absolutely zero relevance to the course in terms of its environment.
Why was the unique setting and location not used in the design and aesthetics and embrace an opportunity to create something that feels native to that area as opposed to jumping on the bandwagon and cranking out a lumpy bumpy fake links. It may be a good golf course but also appears to be a fine example of how to take an idea completely out of context.
The tide has turned and naturalism and minimalism are now seized upon as a style rather than the philosophy.
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It is difficult to determine course quality from photo tours but this course looks much more interesting than I expected.
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Grant,
Is it not on the water just off of Long Island Sound?
How is its geographic location that much different than Castle Stuart for instance?
Or Chambers Bay, which is farther from the ocean?
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I will admit that the Trump name probably meant that I wouldn't want to play the course when in NYC. But after seeing the photo tour, it seems much more interesting and worth a play.
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Top flight work, as always. Thanks, Ben.
From a distance, but for someone for whom New York was for a while like a 2nd home, the place is marvelous. First, it's a *golf course*, and not one of the hundred other things it *could've* been in a city like New York -- which is in itself a remarkable fact. Second, it strikes me as a smart and quite lovely *hybrid* design and aesthetic, ie making *something* of a poor site, but not trying/forcing it to be *too much*. Third, yes, the price is high by any *reasonable* standard for public golf; but I've been reading for years here about the prices for some quality public/resort courses, and compared to what is actually a wholly *unreasonable* standard, FP stacks up very well. And finally, while it may or may not fit its *surrounds*, the course does seem to fit the *ethos* and the *ambience* that is New York City. I'm glad it's there, and that Mr. T (surely amongst the happiest and the most *optimistic* of the showman-developers) was involved, and also happy that you get to play it.
Peter
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Time for another aggregated reply (sorry I don't use the embedded-quotation function, but I find the results hard to follow):
Grant: Your reaction is understandable and shared by many, but, echoing GJ's comments, I would ask what alternate design/course type you would prefer for the site/find more context-coherent. (As I noted in my review, all golf courses are manipulated/manufactured creations, but I think Ferry Point is less so than the desert courses you invoke. Unlike with desert courses, Ferry Point is in a park (as noted, there is a public park with trees and green grass immediately to the south of the golf course, on the other side of the Whitestone Bridge/Hutchinson River Parkway). Although the actual site of the course was previously a dump, I imagine that grass covered it before that--way back in the day.) Your comments about the course being "imposed into its surroundings" sounds to me like you don't think a golf course should be there at all--again, a reasonable view, but a very different one than saying that the chosen design (with the decision to build a golf course already made) is too contrived. I think this is a discussion worth having, but I think we need more details to have it. Very curious to hear (a) why you think the design does not take into account the surroundings and "feel native to the area" and (b) what type of design would better accomplish those goals.
Jason and Brian: Glad you enjoyed the tour, and I promise you won't be disappointed if you play the course. I, too, initially balked at the Trump name (as should be apparent from my review), but the substance of the endeavor is hard to argue with.
Peter: Thanks, as always, for your kind words and wonderful feedback. I'm especially glad your asterisk overuse has graced one of my threads. Your second point succinctly captures my overriding thoughts about Ferry Point. With the understanding that all golf courses are contrived/manufactured/"fake" creations, Ferry Point is relatively restrained from a design standpoint. Knowing Trump (I played the waterfall-happy Trump LA last summer, and did not like it very much at all), I was surprised at how restrained Ferry Point was in terms of design gimmicks. Much more could have been forced, but, as you note, wasn't. In short, once you get over the fact that the foundation of the course--a "faux" links--is itself a contrivance, the rest feels refreshingly natural and understated. I'd be delighted to play it with you the next time you visit your former second home.
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Ben
Thanks for a measured reply and also, great work on the photo tour. It takes a lot of work to put them together and the ones you do are always detailed and well articulated.
My reaction is based on what appears to be a very clear intent to try and create a links like landscape which will somehow convince the player he is navigating the dunesland of the Scottish coastline. They have certainly achieved a rumpled dunesy type playing field but it is hard to deny the repetitiveness and generally quite roly poly nature of the mounding and the fact is seems to conveniently stop at the fairway edges. In a different surroundings, this would be a reasonably acceptable result in my book.
My contention lays with the fact that the surrounding views and landscape are predominantly built up urban buildings and other quite structured or geometric dominant lines. The randomness (attempted) of the golf course just doesnt gel with that in my opinion.
With such a blank canvas and such strong rigid vistas and landmarks, I would have seen this as an opportunity to maybe embrace a Raynor type geometric style of shaping. The use of sharper lines with a conscious nod towards embracing a manufactured look would, to me, be more in keeping with an environment featuring one of the true marvels of engineering that is NYC. Reflect and highlight the fact that you are in an area where the hand of man has been so instrumental in shaping the landscape rather than trying to convince people that this small pocket of land remained untouched simply waiting for a course to be draped upon it.
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Ben
Thanks for the tour. The course strikes me as a mixed bag, but my over-riding thought is mounding and bunkering strike me as predictable. For the most part, the mounding encases the course in a very odd way. Even when holes turn the mounding turns with it. I do like the few holes where mounding spills into the fairway...do you think there was any effort to link up different spines of mounds like one might see in nature where holes play over rather thn through? The bunker mostly roadmaps the holes which are already roadmapped by mounding. In a word, the seems to me a very modern concept of "links" - which to be fair is hard to avoid given we are "modern" and Trump propably wants to host pros.
The property was a blank canvas so the result isn't what I would ideally want to play, but there are several good looking holes...it certainly looks worth playing if one can get a deal of sorts.
Ciao
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Thank you Benjamin for another very fine photo tour.
What's the background noise like? Intrusive?
atb
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I'd like to earnestly ask all who've deemed the mounding here "excessive," "predictable," "repetitive," etc... to give us another idea on how you might segregate or separate holes and playing areas on a public, windswept landscape? At this unique venue and on a former waste dump that necessitated capping, how should the architect solve containment?
I can imagine the spectrum of answers would go from wide open, with little if any segregation to possible dense strands of trees or brush. If open, does it not present a serious safety hazard on a public course when the line of play are not well defined? I suppose Sanford and Nicklaus could've attempted to emulate the Old Course, but then would've faced criticism for plagiarism and stood accused of building a daft replica. Unlike an Erin Hills, either Streamsong, or even a Chambers Bay, there were no residual land features to work with.
Should cavernous bunkers have replaced the mounding? Or should the mounding have been far steeper and penal, ala Bayonne GC? Neither would likely appeal to public golfers after a few go-rounds IMO. Should millions of dollars more of dirt been brought in to push up instead? Maybe if Tom Fazio had gotten the nod in the 1990s.
Should thousands of trees have been planted to turn it into a parkland course, like its marvelous brethren 20 minutes north? Would trying to make it look like a migratory-challenged Florida-style course with excessive water and lines of smaller trees (ala Liberty National) been a more acceptable choice? Personally, I think not. One architectural disaster with NYC skyline views is enough for most all of us.
I ask these questions to reveal just how easy it is to critique modern architecture that begins on featureless flat sites. Such critiques aren't necessarily unfair or undeserved until they fail to appreciate the dilemmas the owner-developer and architect are faced with. Something fun, entertaining, and somewhat challenging needs to be created to earn its keep and continue to attract golfers. Under normal circumstances, it should be as reasonably priced to build as possible. Truth-be-told, few if any of these reallocated waste dumps sites can ever achieve economic sensibility and only a few have come close. Due to the obscene graft and mismanagement over three-plus decades, Ferry Point won't be one of those.
These type of constructions will never compete for our favor with the likes of sites that a Friars Head, a Cabot Links or Cliffs, Sebonack, Chambers Bay, Castle Stuart, or Kingsbarns sit upon. These are tracts of earth reclaimed from near death to serve a recreational purpose. I believe they likely deserve a category of their own. Only then will we have an equal basis for fairly judging them and their architectural merits.
Artificiality is, by default, the nature of this beast. Tasteful and artificial rarely go hand-in-hand
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Steve
Are you suggesting that because capping was necessary that a more innovative design wasn't possible?
I have no truck with artificial architecture, but given how much was spent anyway, I would have liked to see something a bit more outside the box. The course certainly looks good and it may even be great, but so far as I am concerned, the site isn't my beef...its the design which leaves me a bit wanting.
Ciao
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Steve
Are you suggesting that because capping was necessary that a more innovative design wasn't possible?
I have no truck with artificial architecture, but given how much was spent anyway, I would have liked to see something a bit more outside the box. The course certainly looks good and it may even be great, but so far as I am concerned, the site isn't my beef...its the design which leaves me a bit wanting.
Ciao
Sean,
You well know I'm not saying a more innovative design wasn't possible...just not probable. Personally and up close, I believe John Sanford did as good a job as I think might have been possible, but one never knows if someone else might not have stretched the boundaries a bit further. It would've been interesting to see how C&C, Doak, Gil or other architectural talents might have treated it, but alas, they typically avoid most of those kind of assignments. Having seen most decent waste dump-reclaimed courses in the US, Ferry Point stands among the best of the bunch.
It's hard to ask any owner-developer to spend gobs more money......remember the largest part of this waste was spent a decade ago prepping and capping the dump....on golf design. This wasn't Trump's doing. Like Wollman Rink, he just stepped in down the stretch and like a tough late inning reliever, got the "save."
As I've always said, its easy to critique (especially from pix) and harder to constructively suggest alternatives.
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Steve
Well, I don't know why a gob more money would have been needed for a more innovative design. In truth, far less bunkering and mounding as I would advocate would likely be cheaper.
The bottom line is this sort of stuff comes down to opinion. Once a course has a certain developer (any developer) the options become limited. Once a course is slated for pro golf the options become more limited. So I reckon you are correct with the "probable" comment, but I still held out hope for something more innovatve. Still, I am disappointed that an overdone faux links was the result...even if it is a very good course. Perhaps my expectations (or more accurately hopes) are too high.
Ciao
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I haven't been to Ferry Point yet, but from this excellent photo tour, count me in the Steve Lapper camp. I'm not really sure what 'innovative' means in a situation like this but, while by definition 'artificial', FP appears to present a very attractive, playable version of the minimalist design so many of us appreciate. I also applaud Trump for stepping to a very difficult situation...without him this would have remained a half-finished site for many years to come, in the same way that nobody would be skating in Central Park if he hadn't single-handedly salvaged that mess. As for the pricing, in an area where private golf clubs cost $20k+ all-in, it will not be difficult to fill the tee sheet once the course's reputation builds.
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Benjamin,
Very nice work on the photo tour.
Some useful facts that have been posted previously but continue to be ignored in others posts:
Sanford was awarded the RFP and put together the Construction Management team for the golf course project.
Jack Nicklaus Design was the designer of golf course.
Trump Org. was awarded the RFP to grow-in and operate the facility for the city of NY. The Trump name was part of that negotiation.
NYCPR was the developer of the golf course and the adjacent parks.
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Lots to respond to this time around, but some similar themes, so hopefully this won't be too long. First off, as always, many thanks to you all for the kind words.
Thomas: As noted, there is background noise--trucks and cars on the bridge and the highway, planes (lots of planes) overhead--but I heard very little of it. That might well be because, as a native New Yorker, I'm used to it, or just because my visual sense is stronger than my aural one. I note that Jon Cavalier found the bridge traffic quite loud when he played the course a few weeks ago. So it probably depends on the person, but I haven't heard say it detracts from the experience of playing the course.
JWL: Thanks for the clarification on some of the background details. Very helpful.
Grant: Thanks for clarifying your earlier comments. But I think the ideal you set forth is, even more than most ideals, impossible to attain. How can any golf course legitimately mimic the rigid, geometric lines of urban buildings (Raynor's geometric style, at the end of the day, still features rounded edges)? Even assuming you could build rectangular pillars instead of mounds out of earth, I'm pretty sure you'd be laughed right out of the golf industry. Unless I'm missing something, the fact is that golf courses in urban landscapes can hope only to complement, not mirror, their environments. With that premise, Ferry Point does quite well in my opinion, even accomplishing some subtle visual mimicry along the way with mounds in the foreground and red-brick buildings in the background (see, for example, my picture of the par-3 3rd). Given the scale, variety, and industrial beauty of the urban surrounds, I think it's smart that the designers chose a relatively low-profile course. It highlights, instead of competes with, the surrounds. Should Frederick Law Olmsted have injected more geometry into the design of Central Park to mimic the encircling skyline? Or was he wise to create ample open expanses and reservoirs to let the skyline sing to mesmerized onlookers? Also, I'm confused by your comment about repetitiveness: Aren't the dunes at "real" links also visually repetitive, and isn't that part of the charm? Finally, I'm glad you brought up Raynor. Why is it that most of us so love his and CB MacDonald's work--which was explicitly premised on copying template holes from Great Britain--and so hate "faux links"? Is it somehow better to copy individual holes than general landscapes? If so, why?
All of which leads me to the Steve-and-Sean exchange: I'm with Steve (and Keith), and I don't see a need to repeat what he so eloquently said in his initial post. Not that Steve and Sean are all that much at odds. As I read Sean's initial comments, his response was hardly all negative. In fact, he very much likes a lot of what he sees. Regarding his question about predictability in the mounding and the routing--i.e., the former follows the latter--I don't know if efforts were made to buck that trend and play over, as opposed to through, mounds. As you note, playing over mounds usually means blind shots, and we all know how pros--and many recreational golfers--feel about blind shots, so my guess is that the answer is "no." Sure, the end result might have been slightly enhanced by more over-mound shots, but I don't think it suffers from a lack of them.
At the end of the day, Ferry Point accomplishes what it was set out to accomplish, and not many courses can say that.
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Ben
I am not advocating rectangular pillars of earth or anything that hard and rigid. What I am suggesting is adopting a style that is very clear in its message that "this course was built". As you note, Raynor did use rounded edges but he combined them with some very solid shapes that are impossible to interpret as anything less than the hand of man.
Also, I was not implying that templates or copying of holes should be employed. While that was something that MacDonald and Raynor did do, it seems to me they did so while making no great attempt to try and convince the player that what they built was natural. Old MacDonald, on the other hand, features templates but with the goal of having them feel natural. Neither is right or wrong in my view, just different. The templates can work in any landscape but I feel it is the style or aesthetics that fit the course in not the holes themselves.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/16205141818_2c07c185c7_c.jpg)
Here is a picture from Sleepy Hollow (another course I have not played). It is very clear that the green and bunkering have been created and no special efforts have been taken to try and incorporate it into the surrounds. Same with the square tee. It is this type of acknowledgement of creation that I am putting forth as a possible style and philosophy that for me would be more suited in that structured environment.
I am just of the opinion that in such a clearly manufactured setting and surrounding that a course that was “built” rather than “found” would actually integrate better.
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Thanks for the further clarification, Grant. I would actually argue that the non-urban setting of most, if not all, of Raynor's designs is precisely what allows his geometric style to work. (I have played only Sleepy Hollow and Yale, but my understanding from research here and elsewhere is that most of his courses are also in rural environments. If anyone knows of a contrary example, please share it.) In other words, contrast between the course design and the surrounds is typically the best recipe for appreciating both sides of the equation (in the same way that light and shadow work together in creating great imagery). Where the course, like a Raynor course, screams "this course was built," it's best appreciated when the surrounds are NOT built. Conversely, where the course, like some of the great links of Great Britain and, yes, even Ferry Point, screams, or tries to scream, "this course was found," that's a nod to the man-made nature of the surrounds, which come alive precisely because the design of the course doesn't compete with it. I frankly think that a Raynor-like design at Ferry Point would create visual overload; it's best to let the urban surrounds, and they are without question majestic, speak for themselves.
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Grant,
I would suggest that the picture you post of Sleepy Hollow picture is a very modern picture that in my recollections looks much more built than the original hole at Sleepy Hollow.
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GJ: If I'm not mistaken, that's a(nother spectacular) Jon Cavalier picture taken last year--i.e., after the Gil Hanse restoration.
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Ben
I am not advocating rectangular pillars of earth or anything that hard and rigid. What I am suggesting is adopting a style that is very clear in its message that "this course was built". As you note, Raynor did use rounded edges but he combined them with some very solid shapes that are impossible to interpret as anything less than the hand of man.
Also, I was not implying that templates or copying of holes should be employed. While that was something that MacDonald and Raynor did do, it seems to me they did so while making no great attempt to try and convince the player that what they built was natural. Old MacDonald, on the other hand, features templates but with the goal of having them feel natural. Neither is right or wrong in my view, just different. The templates can work in any landscape but I feel it is the style or aesthetics that fit the course in not the holes themselves.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/16205141818_2c07c185c7_c.jpg)
Here is a picture from Sleepy Hollow (another course I have not played). It is very clear that the green and bunkering have been created and no special efforts have been taken to try and incorporate it into the surrounds. Same with the square tee. It is this type of acknowledgement of creation that I am putting forth as a possible style and philosophy that for me would be more suited in that structured environment.
I am just of the opinion that in such a clearly manufactured setting and surrounding that a course that was “built” rather than “found” would actually integrate better.
Grant,
If Trump should have used "built" angular raynorlike architecture to fit into its urban environment, how come Sleepy Hollow isn't required to use a more a "found" naturalisticic style to blend into its wooded rustic environment?
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I do not mind the mounding though if the intention was to create a links in the dunes I think they missed it by a mile as far as the modelling goes. Natural dune systems are diverse in that a course will pass through some areas that a flatter in nature but also other area that are more wild. From the photos it looks like the form of the faux-dunes system is the same throughout the round. Still nice looking course.
Jon
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Ben
I am not advocating rectangular pillars of earth or anything that hard and rigid. What I am suggesting is adopting a style that is very clear in its message that "this course was built". As you note, Raynor did use rounded edges but he combined them with some very solid shapes that are impossible to interpret as anything less than the hand of man.
Also, I was not implying that templates or copying of holes should be employed. While that was something that MacDonald and Raynor did do, it seems to me they did so while making no great attempt to try and convince the player that what they built was natural. Old MacDonald, on the other hand, features templates but with the goal of having them feel natural. Neither is right or wrong in my view, just different. The templates can work in any landscape but I feel it is the style or aesthetics that fit the course in not the holes themselves.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/16205141818_2c07c185c7_c.jpg)
Here is a picture from Sleepy Hollow (another course I have not played). It is very clear that the green and bunkering have been created and no special efforts have been taken to try and incorporate it into the surrounds. Same with the square tee. It is this type of acknowledgement of creation that I am putting forth as a possible style and philosophy that for me would be more suited in that structured environment.
I am just of the opinion that in such a clearly manufactured setting and surrounding that a course that was “built” rather than “found” would actually integrate better.
Grant,
If Trump should have used "built" angular raynorlike architecture to fit into its urban environment, how come Sleepy Hollow isn't required to use a more a "found" naturalisticic style to blend into its wooded rustic environment?
Jeff
I didn't pick that photo to illustrate a course fitting with its surroundings but rather used it just to demonstrate a style of shaping that is very regular and rigid.
I can certainly understand why some posters on here struggle to understand why I am reluctant to automatically give the course a big tick because they have chosen to use a style that is very much in vogue and upheld as the ideal regardless of application or location.
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Thanks for the further clarification, Grant. I would actually argue that the non-urban setting of most, if not all, of Raynor's designs is precisely what allows his geometric style to work. (I have played only Sleepy Hollow and Yale, but my understanding from research here and elsewhere is that most of his courses are also in rural environments. If anyone knows of a contrary example, please share it.) In other words, contrast between the course design and the surrounds is typically the best recipe for appreciating both sides of the equation (in the same way that light and shadow work together in creating great imagery). Where the course, like a Raynor course, screams "this course was built," it's best appreciated when the surrounds are NOT built. Conversely, where the course, like some of the great links of Great Britain and, yes, even Ferry Point, screams, or tries to scream, "this course was found," that's a nod to the man-made nature of the surrounds, which come alive precisely because the design of the course doesn't compete with it. I frankly think that a Raynor-like design at Ferry Point would create visual overload; it's best to let the urban surrounds, and they are without question majestic, speak for themselves.
Ben
I get where you are coming from and appreciate your viewpoint but I just see it a bit differently. I actually find the bunkering and mounding to be rather busy with so many lines changing direction which in turn distracts my eye from the surroundings. I feel that longer cleaner lines would be less distracting an compliment the vistas better.
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Ben
All of which leads me to the Steve-and-Sean exchange: I'm with Steve (and Keith), and I don't see a need to repeat what he so eloquently said in his initial post. Not that Steve and Sean are all that much at odds. As I read Sean's initial comments, his response was hardly all negative. In fact, he very much likes a lot of what he sees. Regarding his question about predictability in the mounding and the routing--i.e., the former follows the latter--I don't know if efforts were made to buck that trend and play over, as opposed to through, mounds. As you note, playing over mounds usually means blind shots, and we all know how pros--and many recreational golfers--feel about blind shots, so my guess is that the answer is "no." Sure, the end result might have been slightly enhanced by more over-mound shots, but I don't think it suffers from a lack of them.
I wasn't asking why there aren't over the dunes shots, I thought there might be more over the dunes shots than pictured. Are there situations where the dunes block out a view if the golfer is in on the "wrong" side of the fairway? Are there hollows to contend with?
Steve
By far my biggest criticism is how the bunkers and mounding provide a visual road map as to how to play the course. To me, this is a grade school approach...very popular for sure, but dumbed down architecture which for which visuals perhaps overly compete with variety and diversity. This is what I meant on the other thread about archies running out of ideas or at least not willing to employ more diverse ideas.
Ciao
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Thanks for the tour.
Based on the photos I'm with Grant on this one.
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Thanks for the further clarification, Grant. I would actually argue that the non-urban setting of most, if not all, of Raynor's designs is precisely what allows his geometric style to work. (I have played only Sleepy Hollow and Yale, but my understanding from research here and elsewhere is that most of his courses are also in rural environments. If anyone knows of a contrary example, please share it.) In other words, contrast between the course design and the surrounds is typically the best recipe for appreciating both sides of the equation (in the same way that light and shadow work together in creating great imagery). Where the course, like a Raynor course, screams "this course was built," it's best appreciated when the surrounds are NOT built. Conversely, where the course, like some of the great links of Great Britain and, yes, even Ferry Point, screams, or tries to scream, "this course was found," that's a nod to the man-made nature of the surrounds, which come alive precisely because the design of the course doesn't compete with it. I frankly think that a Raynor-like design at Ferry Point would create visual overload; it's best to let the urban surrounds, and they are without question majestic, speak for themselves.
I have never played a Raynor course but having seen numerous photos on here and elsewhere it is the contrast of the beautiful settings and his geometric style that you suggest allows his style to work that puts me off his courses. He was obviously talented from a strategic and routing point of view but it feels like the heavy hand of man has ruined so many beautiful settings that I am not that drawn to visiting those sites. The only one that really interests me is Fisher's Island and that is mainly due to it's simplicity. If this simplicity was used at Ferry Point in the urban surroundings, accepting and embracing the man made nature I think there is potential for a great course. This type of urban setting is possibly the ideal spot in my mind for a Raynor style obviously man made course.
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Ok, you cannot have it both ways. The course is good for 2015.
If you try to build an innovative course with different holes, then you could end up with course like the Castle Course that D. Kidd did in Scotland.
I think they went with the safe design with the mounding. At least they did not design and build Liberty National II.
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Ben:
Thanks for the pictures. Looks like you played in five hours?
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Before I get to the latest round of comments, I wanted to post this excellent article on Ferry Point that was featured in the MGA Magazine several months ago (written by Jeff Neuman, who just wrote another excellent piece, this time on Cabot Links, Cabot Cliffs, and Highlands, in the latest edition): http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/416463-nov-dec-2014-jan-2015/38 (http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/416463-nov-dec-2014-jan-2015/38)
Also, I know we've mentioned several times that the course was built with professional tournaments in mind, but I didn't realize that it has already been awarded the Barclays in 2017 and 2020: http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/donald-trumps-ferry-point-course-host-barclays-pga-tour-event-2017 (http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/donald-trumps-ferry-point-course-host-barclays-pga-tour-event-2017)
Jon W.: Fair point about the diversity of "real" links, but note that Ferry Point does present topographical diversity--there is a nice mix of flat holes, downhill holes, and uphill holes. Sure, there's not much diversity in terms of flora, although the marshes on 16, 17, and 18 provide a nice contrast toward the end of the round.
Grant: As you say, we could just have different aesthetics preferences. And that's totally fine. But I will say that, in real time, the eye wanders naturally to the urban surrounds, which are huge, everywhere, and legitimately mesmerizing. It's easier to be distracted with a static image that you can dissect at the comfort of your computer. To me, the one man-made element of the course that bothered me most were, as usual, the cart paths (although, to be fair, they are not especially visible to the walking golfer). Obviously, on a real links, cart paths would be nowhere to be found. I really wish the course were, with few exceptions, walking only, and that they provided push/pull carts instead of motorized golf carts. I mean, if you're going to try to replicate the links experience, you might as well go all out.
Sean: Thanks for clarifying. Yes, there are several places where you can be in the fairway and have a dune/mound- obscured shot (I'm not including the many occasions where you find yourself in that situation off of the fairway). The following holes come to mind: 5 (left side of fairway), 6 (left side of fairway), 10 (left side of fairway), 13 (left side and middle of fairway), 14 (left side of fairway), and 16 (off the tee, assuming you try to reach the right-most side of the fairway, over the huge dunes/mounds 150 yards away from the tee).
Tom: I appreciate your and Grant's point of view, but I'm still of the opinion that a Raynor-type geometric design at Ferry Point would be too much of the same thing, competing with, as opposed to complementing/highlighting, the surrounds. But, again, I'm someone who appreciates and even values contrast, especially when it comes to aesthetics.
Scott: I obviously agree with you. Liberty National, to me, suffers from an identity crisis above all else. Ferry Point does not.
Carl: Glad you enjoyed. We played in 4:40. Note that we started as a foursome, allowed a twosome (which proceeded to play two balls each!) to play through on the 3rd hole, became a twosome on the back nine, and were stuck behind a foursome that plumb-bobbed every single putt on every single green, even with the sun setting. I believe we played the front in 2 hours and the back in 2:40. The course suggests a 4:30 time for foursomes; I suppose that's good for NYC public courses, but I wish they had been more ambitious and suggested 4:00. It's definitely doable on the course, which is eminently walkable (with only three longish green-to-tee walks), although I imagine times will balloon if they decide to grow the fescue high and lush in the summer. Fingers crossed that they do so only for the pros.
I'd be really interested to hear any architects' perspective on the Ferry Point design. Would you have chosen a similar design as Nicklaus/Sanford? If not, what design would, in your opinion, fit the site better? Does the current design look too "fake" (contrived/manufactured etc.) to you? Are you generally opposed to so-called faux links?
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For those of you that have played the course thus far, what is your handicap and what tees did you play from? The course plays approximately 6,900 yards from the gold tees but does it play more than or less than it's yardage? Judging by the rating, the Golds seem to be a difficult test with a rating of 74.2. As a 13 handicap, I'm leaning towards the Blue tees but any input would be appreciated.
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Steve: Depending on the year, I play off a 5-8 handicap, but my interest in playing of late has been enjoyment above all else. So I "tee it forward" most of the time (especially if I'm the lone good player in the group). At Ferry Point, that meant playing from the blue tees. You should definitely play the blue tees at most. The course does not play its listed yardage, as it plays relatively firm and fast and many tee shots are downhill.
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After several recent outings at the course, the mainstream media has begun to shine a brighter light on Ferry Point. The latest is from Vanity Fair: http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/05/donald-trump-bronx-golf-oasis?mbid=social_twitter (http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/05/donald-trump-bronx-golf-oasis?mbid=social_twitter).
The article touches on some of the fascinating non-GCA-related themes I noted in my review--"Who from the neighborhood could afford the greens fees? What role will the Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point play in the community? Will it help elevate this neighborhood or is it a cruel taunt, another example of the working class being boxed out by the super rich?"--but sadly ends after having barely teed them up. I suppose we'll have to wait for The New Yorker to chime in.
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I enjoyed this review of Ferry Point a lot. Thanks for posting. I plan on getting a round in at some point this season. The discussion has also been interesting to follow. From what I've read and seen through photos thus far, FP seems to have an identity, but there are different view points whether it's the appropriate identity considering its surroundings. I'll reserve judgment until I play it, but one of the things that stuck with me from the OP is that you don't realize any repetitiveness of the holes until after the round is over. I typically enjoy that when it happens, which in my experience more often than not means the overarching design theme of the course is effective. At any rate, I'm glad there is another terrific public course option fairly close by.
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Ben,
I finally made it out to Ferry Point this past weekend and was surprised by how strongly I felt about it, both positively and negatively.
I'll start out by saying that I planned to judge the course on only one criteria: is it fun to play? Well, I had an absolute blast and will frequently return. The turf is firmer and faster than any other public in the region. Even if the course was an architectural dud, it would be worth going out of one's way for if only for how the ball bounces and rolls. Almost as important, the longer grasses up in the mounds are still kept short for now, allowing balls to be findable and playable, with an extremely awkward stance being more punishment than the lie. The course is also routed perfectly to the prevailing winds which, even when well up, never felt oppressive. It can, at times, feel close to a true links-like experience.
There was a bold strategic decision required on every tee and you had a great view of whether or not your ball pulled it off. Fairways had enough movement that you had to watch your ball to the finish. That was fun.
I didn't find some of the approach shots to be nearly as fun.
My initial reaction is that there's a bit too much bunkering protecting the front of the (mostly perched-up) greens, and that pin position, not clever design, is the biggest factor as to how a hole plays. While it's a relatively wide course, it's not wide enough to allow the opportunity to truly open up the approaches. On some holes, pulling off a heroic shot for the best angle yields a reward only slightly better than had you played completely safe. And the green surfaces themselves do not have much movement, which makes it tougher to play low shots around the hazards to protected pins, something desirable in the persistent winds.
That said, there are some fantastic holes out there, at least a couple extremely interesting ones... and also #11. I'll save that discussion for a second post, where maybe I'll also rant about their push-cart ban, lack of free drinking water, non-existent replay rate, and insultingly discounted twilight rate. :)
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More from the 'grand opening' festivities in the Bronx:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-27/what-it-s-like-to-play-donald-trump-s-ferry-point-golf-course-in-the-bronx (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-27/what-it-s-like-to-play-donald-trump-s-ferry-point-golf-course-in-the-bronx)
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Crossed the Whitestone Bridge Monday am.
Couldn't miss the giant sign made of some kind've faux (or real) plantlife that said
TRUMP LINKS
Ick...
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Funny thing is they have re-worked that "sign" several times, and that, apparently, is the best they could come up with. Almost looks like the work of a dysfunctional committee(oh, the redundancy!)...
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So this course is the #2 best new course of 2015.
For those who have played it, and perhaps have played some others on the list, is this high ranking more of a point for the quality of the course, or a point for the dearth of new construction in 2015?
I am not opposed to the "faux links" style of design, generally speaking. Whatever course was created there, it would be faux something, unless a designer had the balls (or the insanity) to create an "urban environment" course with hazards like rusted oil drums and piles of twisted metal, played over artificial "turf" made to look like vacant lots or abandoned superfund sites. Imagine the critical comments rolling on on THAT choice.
But from reading the comments on this thread, it doesn't seem like is is the choice of which faux environment to use, but rather the implementation of that environment - at least to some. Has anyone played a number of these faux links? How does this one rank against Bayonne, or others?
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Here is Matt Ward's review:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1891256-ferry-points-fanfare-big-apple-golf-option-arrives/
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Has anyone ever actually met The Donald in casual surroundings with no cameras? Curious to know if he is really as horrendous as he seems or if it is all a con job and he is actually a good bloke just trying to make his way in the world.
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I have, and I found him to be a good guy. Boisterous, and over the top, at times...yes. But, a guy that I think I would probably enjoy playing golf with, and since he inflates his ability a bit, I would enjoy removing a few shekels from him. :)
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Here is Matt Ward's review:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1891256-ferry-points-fanfare-big-apple-golf-option-arrives/ (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1891256-ferry-points-fanfare-big-apple-golf-option-arrives/)
Don't you mean M. James Ward's review?