Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: MCirba on April 18, 2015, 10:24:33 AM
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For decades now, I’ve loved researching the architectural histories of golf courses great and small. One of the things that brought me back to this site was some of the activity going on in that regard by some new and old faces here and it’s generally a terrific thing to be among others who share my passion. I do have to say however, that no matter how enthusiastic and committed I am to this hobby, my efforts pale in comparison to my good friend “Indiana Joe(nes)” Bausch, whose ongoing efforts to unearth architectural history are incredibly tireless and wonderfully valuable.
Witness his most recent thread here where he uncovers and posts over 400 articles by Philadelphia’s “Evening Public Ledger” golf writer Ted Hoyt from the mid-20s, which contain just terrific nuggets of information for clubs and course researching their histories, architectural and otherwise. Or his thread where George O’Neill in Chicago asked various architect and other golf luminaries to name their favorite holes.
One thing I’ve certainly learned over time, sometimes painfully so, is that when one is doing golf course research, more is simply better. By that I mean that I think both Joe and I have seen times where a single news article is flat out wrong, or contains only a partial truth, but more often what we see I think is a single point in time of an evolving story, all of which can lead to mistaken conclusions by someone trying to retrospectively uncover the story of a course’s architectural origins. I know I’ve been personally guilty of making this error in the past. Overall, I think the best approach at getting to an accurate understanding of a course one is truly interested in is to use not only contemporaneous news articles, but also later articles along a course’s lifetime that can not only illustrate the evolution but also at times contain gems not originally reported, sometimes even in obituaries. Other great sources can include club minutes, course histories, memories of older members, club lore, USGA library holdings, local historical societies and archives, all of which may present some inconsistencies and even contradictions, but which generally together yield a greater truth leading to deeper understanding.
Case in point is an article among Joe’s recent findings concerning the new course being built by the Philadelphia Country Club in the mid-20s. Imagine finding this single article from April 8th, 1925 without context or without understanding of subsequent events, which I’ll add in future posts on this thread.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/TedHoytEPL/mediafiles/l17.jpg)
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On July 3rd, 1925, we get an update on the work at Philly Country Club as well as the first mentions of William Flynn and Howard Toomey. From this article alone, or especially in conjunction with the previous one, one would get the sense that Flynn/Toomey are simply constructing the course to the plans of Colt/Alison, with some slight "readjustment...more to the American idea of what a modern course should be".
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/TedHoytEPL/mediafiles/l59.jpg)
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Mike -
Great finds. Going to let this one run and not comment. Can't wait to see what you post next as the evolution of the course progresses. Would have much to say as I have the Toomey & Flynn plan smack in front of me on my wall (along with Shinnecock) to muse over as we work on various projects.
Jim
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Jim,
Thanks, but the credit is all Mr. Bausch's. It really is interesting to note the evolution of Philly CC, and perhaps someone with better knowledge of the original hole numbering can actually go through the hole descriptions and determine which of the Colt/Alison proposed holes were used in Flynn routing. It also seems that Flynn was able to convince the club that his plan was superior, or at least designed more along "modern lines" of what an American course should be. In any case, I think the following article exemplifies the fact that the planning and construction of courses were often multi-year affairs with sometimes evolving stories and various cooks adding to the broth.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/TedHoytEPL/mediafiles/l67.jpg)
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Mike,
Please keep them coming. This story is getting very interesting!
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Mike or Joe
Have there been any insights from any potential lurking Flynn experts? This is the first i've ever heard of Colt/Allison in the Phila. area (excluding Pine Valley).
w
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Have there been any insights from any potential lurking Flynn experts?
w
Yes. :)
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Wayne,
I don't have the details in front of me but Alison was involved in finishing Pine Valley around 1920 through a set of recommendations he made to the club, some implemented and some not. When Colt was here in 1913 some believe he visited Merion and Seaview with Hugh Wilson. If memory serves, Walter Travis also openly solicited the work for the new course at PCC, having done revisions to their first course.
It's an interesting but very difficult exercise to determine what of Alison actually got retained in Flynn ' s plans, and likely impossible to do accurately without Alison ' s actual drawings so varied are the hole descriptions (and overall course length).
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I noticed that the Phillies were last in runs scored!
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it's going to be a LONG summer in Philadelphia this year. the only thing to look forward to is Tebow wearing Iggles Green... ???
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March 23, 1927. It's now almost two years since the first article posted here and the new course is slated to open soon. Not much more information here, but for sake of completeness...
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/TedHoytEPL/mediafiles/l277.jpg)
Also, a friend was kind enough to send along these hole-by-hole comparisons of the yardages/pars of the proposed Colt/Alison layout versus the Flynn layout. Speculation about which holes of Colt/Alison that survived is not only encouraged, it's warmly welcomed from interested parties; :)
Here are the planned yardage distributions by hole number and today's corresponding hole numbers
Flynn Hole #. Colt and Alison yardage/Flynn yardage/Today hole #
1. 475/427/14
2. 420/223/15
3. 145/334/16
4. 395/431/17
5. 435/435/18
6. 420/432/10
7. 160/185/11
8. 395/445/12
9. 345/344 return to clubhouse/13
10. 535/417/4
11. 375/159/5
12. 200/475/6
13. 410/189/7
14. par 4/382/8
15. 425/411/9
16. 485/363/1
17. 175/357
18. easy par 4/525
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These are the best posts. I have played Philly CC many times and love to read the history.
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Jeff,
I am very heartened that you enjoyed this thread and find value in it. Thanks. I love the course as well.
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Philly CC is great. One and only time I've seen a rock wall in a bunker.
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The current 16th hole could be the most deceptive second shot in golf.
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Jeff,
Yes it is and the tree management program instituted at the club about 15 years back really turned on the headlights for shots like that one. Previously a thicket of trees behind the green provided depth perception and also ruined the terrific view.
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Reading some of the comments got me to thinking. What are the weaknesses of PCC? The course is wonderfully routed on ground which presents a variety of side slopes, some flatter holes and plenty of uphill/downhill combinations. There are stream crossings on a number of holes (as Flynn did on so many of his courses), solid par 3's of varying lengths, a good combination of par 4's. The greens have also been perplexing to me and therefore challenging. And finally, the course possesses challenging bunkers. It can't come down to just the 18th hole as a detractor. It seems to be such a subtle, graceful and sophisticated course that does not get the full recognition it's due.
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Jim
I have only played the course three times. I'm a big fan. 1, 3 and 17 are among my favorite holes anywhere. Agree with you on the routing. I have no issue with 18 either. I think it's a good hole. Not the grand return to the clubhouse that many expect but plenty of merit. I'm not sure that the course takes a back seat to any of its Flynn brethren. If it is discussed less, perhaps it is because the northwest quadrant of the property is topographically so gentle and the holes in the southeast quadrant lay so gently across those side slopes. In contrast to RG for example there are fewer greens perched atop bluffs (a feature which I think creates a sense of drama especially with big flashed Flynn bunkers).
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I am quite certain the routing was changed when a new clubhouse was built. The first hole was originally the current 14th if memory serves me correctly. Cirba?
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The maintenance building is the old clubhouse I believe.
The only negative to the whole facility in my mind was that you can't hit drivers on the range. My guess is the members hit them down on the separate practice facility site.
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I am quite certain the routing was changed when a new clubhouse was built. The first hole was originally the current 14th if memory serves me correctly. Cirba?
Jeff,
Yes, the first hole of Flynn's routing was today's 14th, which I think would have made for an elegant starting hole.
Today's 18th hole is the only one to markedly change over the years. It was a par five from today's tee through the parking lots, courts, swimming pool, clubhouse and ended around today's practice putting green. How's that for a challenge!! ;)
Seriously, on paper it looks like it would have been quite a good one, and possibly the only downside to today's course (per Jim's question) is that the finishing hole by William Gordon is less than stellar.
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I have always found the approach to 13 to be difficult, Tough green too. Who cares? No more championships at PCC but I absolutely love it.
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Would anyone be interested in seeing the letters of solicitation that Walter Travis sent to the club? He stated it was the first time he actively solicited a club simply because he had never designed a course in Philadelphia and wanted to very much.
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Would anyone be interested in seeing the letters of solicitation that Walter Travis sent to the club? He stated it was the first time he actively solicited a club simply because he had never designed a course in Philadelphia and wanted to very much.
That would be cool.
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Here you go, Jim...kinda cool indeed.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8821/17274455922_5363dd80e5_z.jpg)
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(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7685/17090048709_ff88d14110_z.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8770/17275763031_67e211f81e_z.jpg)
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Interesting that his desire was to "build a monument for myself in Philadelphia." I wonder if that might have turned the committee off to using him as the architect?
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That is pretty cool, Mike.
Even though Travis claims it's the only time he's solicited business, it's nice to see proof of an ODG attempting to prospect, qualify, and sell...90 years ago.
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Very cool Mike, thanks.
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Also, a friend was kind enough to send along these hole-by-hole comparisons of the yardages/pars of the proposed Colt/Alison layout versus the Flynn layout. Speculation about which holes of Colt/Alison that survived is not only encouraged, it's warmly welcomed from interested parties; :)
Here are the planned yardage distributions by hole number and today's corresponding hole numbers
Flynn Hole #. Colt and Alison yardage/Flynn yardage/Today hole #
1. 475/427/14
2. 420/223/15
3. 145/334/16
4. 395/431/17
5. 435/435/18
6. 420/432/10
7. 160/185/11
8. 395/445/12
9. 345/344 return to clubhouse/13
10. 535/417/4
11. 375/159/5
12. 200/475/6
13. 410/189/7
14. par 4/382/8
15. 425/411/9
16. 485/363/1
17. 175/357
18. easy par 4/525
Could someone please post a comparison of the original hole numbers versus the current hole numbers? The last time I asked this question (in person), it went unanswered — except for Wayne Morrison trying to sell me a book. :D
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Bill,
I'll see if I can get to it later, but if you have even a passing interest in the golf courses of William Flynn, I'd recommend the book. It's not something you'll sit down and read cover to cover, but instead it functions more like a dictionary or encyclopedia and it's something I reference often in my research. It's exhaustive and quite remarkable in that way.