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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on April 14, 2015, 04:16:19 AM

Title: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Sean_A on April 14, 2015, 04:16:19 AM
1888 map.
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Players Cigarettes Map
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Since its inception Sandwich has been controversial due to the perceived premium placed on long hitting and the reliance on the vagaries of the terrain.  The club founder, Scotsman Laidlaw Purves, must have had connections with the R&A for despite the polarized opinion, within five years of its founding, Royal St Georges Golf Club hosted the Amateur.  Two years later, in 1894, JH Taylor was the first winner of an Open held south of the border.  326, the highest winning score in Open history, confirmed the rugged reputation of Sandwich. Despite many changes aimed at reducing blindness and generally modernizing the links, Purves would yet recognize the formidable character of the links. Purves too would be pleased that Royal St Georges has remained at the heart of English golf.  The club has hosted the Open on 14 occasions, the Amateur 13 times, The Walker Cup, The Curtis Cup, the English Amateur, the Home Internationals and the Brabazon Trophy.

The original concept of Sandwich was a golfing club not too distant from London which afforded its members the opportunity to escape the ever increasing crowds on the courses near the city.  While there are today many fine courses which are not terribly crowded, London is heavily represented in the membership roll.  Not surprisingly, the club is very traditional and exhibits a reserved yet approachable demeanour.  For instance, seemingly, very little changes, but recently the club took the momentous step to allow women to be proposed for membership. As an early advocate of women’s golf, Mr Purves might very well have had the last laugh on this matter.  On the links too there was change unrelated to stiffening the test for the professionals.  Not of the club’s doing, but never the less, the demolition of the Richborough power station cooling towers was a sad day for some as it was the most recognizable landmark on the horizon. 

Changes to the course continue to this day as recently the bunker behind the 12th was removed and a bunker was added on the right side of the 9th fairway.  These of course are not nearly as serious as the changes which took place in the 70s.  After a long hiatus in hosting the Open, the club decided to engage Frank Pennink to remove some of the idiosyncratic elements of Sandwich, thus the blind third so loved by Bernard Darwin gave way to a rather modern and predictable long par 3.  The new 8th on the other hand, a par 3 converted into a formidable par 4 echoes the Sandwich of 100 years ago.  The final major change was the creation of the 11th, another drive and pitch hole converted into a rather charmless long one-shotter. Despite the many alterations, the original routing, save for the old Maiden 5th, remains in place. I suspect few courses over 130 years can make this claim.

Looking at the club entrance it is hard to imagine a course of distinction lays beyond. 
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I am astonished the course is only 6340 from the daily markers.  Sandwich plays far longer and most handicap players can expect a load of wood play. 
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The 1st tee now and then. 
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The first is a curious start being a 100 yard or so walk from the club garden.  The land for the first half of the hole isn't distinctly different from that covered during the walk.  It isn't until the approach over scattered bunkers that we see and feel the rumpled links.  Sandwich has a few such instances where the fairway does not cover the area which affords the best line.  The best line of approach is to the right of the photo in the meadowy rough, hence we have the situation of a forced carry.     
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One of the few criticisms that can be levelled at St Georges is the consistent 75-100 yard walks between greens and tees.  I suspect this is the bi-product of lengthening the course over the years, but in the case of the 2nd there is the advantage of a strategic drive with the tee well right of the 1st green hard on the inland side of the course.  One can play well left over a low dune housing sand or play safely to the right...for most right is right.  It is the second shot which is of most interest.  There is a large hollow which sheds approaches from the front right of the green.  Often times, the golfer can't see this hollow.  Pictured is that intrepid South African, Philip Gawith. 
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For the bold off the tee, below is a look at the advantage which can be gained. 
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I am not convinced by the merits of long par 3s with tiered greens and that is exactly what #3 provides.  Although, in the winter months there is the possibility that balls can run down from the right.  An unusual aspect of this hole is the lack of bunkering.  This must be one of the few examples of the Open rota courses.
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The old 3rd green (Sahara) was located on a similar line to the current, but to the right. The tee shot was directly behind the 2nd green and played toward the 4th hole bunkers before hooking left. It may have played as a bogey 4 due to the odd turn left around sand. What is interesting in the photo below is the bunkers on the 4th are clearly visible.  It is also worth noting that the 1888 map indicates the hole was 267 yards.  The photo below indicates the hole was 238 yards.
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Considering the club has gone to great lengths to eliminate blindness over the past 100+ years it is remarkable how many times we don't see the landing zones.  The 4th isn't strictly one of those holes; wisely, fairway runs left around the prominent bunkers.  However, for many, the line will be between the bunkers.  This is another hole where the best line of approach is well into the right rough where in places it is jungle country. 
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Back in the day.
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Keeping left over a heaving fairway for the long second shot we encounter a green not unlike the 2nd...if we alter the angle.  The greens have a definite theme of large drops-offs (either left or right) or false-fronts.  Some lower areas are part of the green, but more often than not the sharp fall-away feeds to fairway.  In the case of the 4th, the low front left is part of the green, but I doubt the hole is ever cut in this section.
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Now well and truly amongst the stately dunes for which St Georges is renowned, the 5th is day in and day out one of the most difficult drives one is likely to encounter.  Together with the 3, 8 & 11, the next two holes are among the more radical amendments to the original design.  Pegwell Bay is straight ahead, but the drive on what was once a short hole is anything but straightforward.  If one hopes to glimpse the flag for the second there is a virtual postage stamp for a landing zone which is chaperoned by a left bunker and formidable rough.  One has to wonder if a great deal of luck isn't in play should one somehow finish in the pound seats.   The safe (relatively speaking) drive.
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The pound seats.
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The old Maiden.  The hole originally played from where the current 5th fairway breaks up, the ideal spot to see the current green.  For safety reasons to protect from incoming tee shots from the 5th, after WWI the tee was moved close to the current 5th green and played over the lower section of the dune, thereby dramatically reducing Maiden's menace.
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Old Maiden green as seen from atop Maiden.  The bold 7th is in the background. Notice the fairway pocket between bunkers just over the dune and on the far side of the fairway; not much has changed.
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Looking back toward the tee.
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In the 1930s Maiden was turned about 90 degrees from the original, heading away from the coast with Maiden flanking the left.  Not an exceptional hole, but the short 6th enclosed by dunes is most welcome after the rigours of 4 and 5. 
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We face another blind drive on the 7th, although the consequences for the wrong line are not so dire as on the 4th.  With the drive safely away there is little pressure impeding us from earning a 5.  I have a recollection of a few bunkers embeded in the carry dune, but perhaps I am mistaken.  The bunkers may have been removed long ago. I suspect one day they will be reinstated.
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Back in the day.
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This photo of the sharp legger left underscores the importance of an accurate tee shot.
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A long walk back to the 8th tee sets up yet another memorable par 4.  The hole essentially doglegs right around the old Hades, the short hole replaced in favour of the new par 4. The drive is paramount as staying left for a view of the green cocooned among the dunes is an immense advantage.  It is strange then the right corner of the dog leg is defended by two blind bunkers.  Below is a look from the end of the fairway. It isn't evident that there is quite a large dead ground area which plays with depth perception and can also serve as a hospitable lay-up space.   
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More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 14, 2015, 04:37:20 AM
Martin Ebert is consulting at Sandwich now. They have rebuilt a few bunkers this winter with more to follow. In particular the big bunkers on the fourth are in very bad condition and need rebuilding, which is planned for later this year. The plan is to remove the timber and have them blowout style.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-7
Post by: Mark Chaplin on April 14, 2015, 05:32:11 AM
Adam they've taken out the bunker at the back of the 12th green, making for an awkward chip for the better player. The great looking coffin bunker hard left on the edge of the 17th green has been replaced by two boring pot bunkers, IMO a nice old feature has been lost.

Played 2 rounds on Saturday and the wind switched 180 degrees morning to afternoon, the 6th and 16th were solid 5 irons in the morning and different holes in the afternoon.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-7
Post by: Michael Felton on April 14, 2015, 11:48:43 AM
Adam they've taken out the bunker at the back of the 12th green, making for an awkward chip for the better player. The great looking coffin bunker hard left on the edge of the 17th green has been replaced by two boring pot bunkers, IMO a nice old feature has been lost.

Played 2 rounds on Saturday and the wind switched 180 degrees morning to afternoon, the 6th and 16th were solid 5 irons in the morning and different holes in the afternoon.

Mark - that wind switch happened in about 2 minutes when the cold front with a little bit of rain came through. I was over at Princes playing in the Hewitt Plate (bah!).
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-8
Post by: Brent Hutto on April 14, 2015, 11:55:21 AM
Last time Tony M. and I played at Deal (or maybe time before last) we had one of those wind switches. We managed to get downwind on the opening holes and then downwind starting about halfway through the 13th and on to the end.

About Royal St. George's, on my last trip there I played 36. Gorgeous, warm, sunny day with a fair breeze in the AM. During the first few holes of the PM round the breeze was dying down then while I was standing in the 14th fairway with my back to the seawall it was like a wall of cold, clammy fog came rolling up behind me. I swear in 10 seconds time the temperature dropped from 75F to 60F and I could see my breath condensing in front of me.

By the time I finished the hole and teed of on 15 the fog had lifted, sun was back out and it was beautiful the rest of the round. Very strange experience.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-8
Post by: Mark Chaplin on April 14, 2015, 04:56:26 PM
Michael we spotted a few unhappy souls at Princes! Nice to see some of our young members who attended Kings Canterbury making the Hewitt final for the first time.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-8
Post by: Sean_A on April 15, 2015, 05:54:03 AM
Chappers

A 5 iron on 6 & 16 doesn't strike me as an unsual amount of club.  On Sunday, I hit a 2 hybrid to 16...the wind was at least 4 clubs.  To give you another idea of the wind...I hit driver-wedge to 13!

SANDWICH TOUR CONT.

The set of short two-shotters at Sandwich is remarkable and under-rated.  #s 2, 9, 10 & 12 are individually special and very different from one another.  Unusually, I don't get the impression that one should be driveable.  The 9th is similar to 1 & 4 with the awkard angle of approach being short grass.  A new bunker blind from the tee discourages the players laying up to the right in the hopes of finding a good lie.  Below is the typical, but uninviting approach from the fairway.
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From this angle we can see the trouble with playing slightly long.  A lay-up isn't a bad play even if it wouldn't occur to most. 
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The 10th always reminds me of a better version of Dornoch's 16th.  The drive is much easier, but the approach is far more demanding.  This is also one of several holes which exemplifies the abundance of Sandwich's diversity.  It may not seem to be the case, but if ever a straight drive should be required it is on the 10th.
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The false front and difficulties of approaching from the wings are more evident from this angle.
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More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-10
Post by: Jon Wiggett on April 15, 2015, 06:16:57 AM
Sean,

it has been a long time since I played St. Georges and the memory is hazy but I do recall the quality of the actual putting complexes. It did not really feel like an Open venue to me probably due to been out in the sticks with neither town or hotel really close by. I did really enjoy my game there. On the point of the 10th and the 16th at Dornoch I think the big difference is you can see the front and sides of the green at St.Gs where as at Dornoch it is a vague idea of where it is at.

Jon
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-10
Post by: Phil McDade on April 15, 2015, 10:17:12 AM
The greatest course in England, according to the late James Finegan.

Jack Nicklaus' least-favorite of the current Open championship rota courses.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-10
Post by: Michael Felton on April 15, 2015, 12:46:19 PM
Looking at these photos having just been playing there last week, it is really quite fascinating to see how much the photos reduce the appearance of the slopes. The banks around the 9th green are really quite extreme and look much flatter in the photos. It's very difficult to play the approach to the 9th green without it hitting and sticking at the front or releasing over the back. On Friday morning the pin was only just past that bank on the front left of the green. Virtually impossible to get it close, even with a short club in. Likewise the 10th green from the fairway is up a pretty large hill, but is reduced in appearance quite a bit in the photos. This golf course really does have to be seen in the flesh to understand what it's really like.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-10
Post by: Mark Chaplin on April 15, 2015, 04:16:04 PM
10 at RSG and RCP are holes that grow on you with multiple plays, both appear to present a safe par chance and possible birdie opportunity, yet it's easy to hit five half decent shots and take six.

Playing with Sean, Phillip and Dan on Saturday afternoon I had the same approach on 10 as the morning, around 85 yards from the left semi. In the morning it was our third shot and in the afternoon Dan had crushed a drive. It's almost impossible to stay on the fairway, so coming in from the left with the traps waiting for any weak shot to roll off to the left is the norm. I hit a perfect, crisp sand iron that pitched on the false front yet only stopped a coue of paces from falling off the back of the green. It's a great hole.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-10
Post by: Brent Hutto on April 15, 2015, 04:24:02 PM
If I had to play one hole 18 times to have a round of golf, I'd probably pick the tenth at Deal. Something about it combines visual and playing appeal and fact is, absent a strong breeze it's possible to think of birdie as within reason every time you tee it up there.

But I've got to say that the three-hole stretch commencing with the tenth at Sandwich is to my mind superior to just about any three links holes I've played. The tenth is magnificent, the tee shot at the long Par 3 eleventh is one I recall frequently (perhaps because my ideal shot there is a drawing lefty 3-iron which I actually pulled off once and made par) then I think the twelfth is a very underrated mid-length two-shotter.

I guess I'm getting ahead of Sean's tour though. The only thing bad I can say about the 10-11-12 stretch at Royal St. George's is that the tee shot on the next hole (13) usually harshes my good buzz.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-10
Post by: Sean_A on April 16, 2015, 05:13:45 AM
Jon

I agree with you concerning the greens...very good without being OTT.

Adam

What do you think about the blow-out decision on #4?  The current look is a bit iconic and it may be a shame to lose it.  I like that the bunkers aren't revetted so I hope that isn't in the plan as well.

SANDWICH TOUR CONT.

The 11th is basically a shortened version of the old hole. I am not a fan of long par 3s unless there is a twist on offer.  It seems to be a modern concept of championship golf that a course should have at least one very long short hole.  There is plenty of big golf on offer at Sandwich and in general I fail to see why it should be required once more for a par 3. I am not only hesitant about the concept, but I don't believe the 11th brings anything particularly noteworthy to the table.
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The final and perhaps best of the marvelous set of drive and pitch holes; #12 will often be the last opportunity to earn a relatively easy 4...and have a bundle of fun doing so.  The drive is fairly non-descript and many will be suckered into playing too far right.  A view of the flag is a strong temptation, but unless one is extremely long, the counter-intuitive play is just inside the left bunker.   
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Once over the ridge and on the washboard fairway amongst a seemingly indefinite number of bunkers, there is a myriad of various approaches one may face. 
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13-15 is an admirable triangle of holes...all stout and enduring.  The flat land explains the increased reliance on bunkering. The same 8-10 foot ridge which troubles the golfer on 12 is on hand to vex at 13.  As on the 7th, #13 is a hole one must go in search of to find the fairway.  The hole doesn't so much bend left..it forks left.  There used to be a clock on the old Princes clubhouse which shephered the golfer through the blind drive.  When the Princes Lodge was built this nicety was not included.  Although, according to the caddies, the right corner of the building is line which will thread a tee shot safely between bunkers.
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The green has a shelving effect running through its width from left to right. The high point is just left of the flag shadow.
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More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-10
Post by: Mark Chaplin on April 16, 2015, 05:27:41 AM
Sean post 20 pictures of RStG and 1 will identify the course to most golfers, the bunkers on 4. The cost of upkeep maybe high and they don't come into play much but I do think their loss in their current form will be very sad.

The 5th is IMO a very weak hole, the ideal driving position is the size of a cricket wicket 20x5 yards, it's no wonder the longer hitters in the Open take on the green, the reward for solid safety play just isn't there.   
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-13
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on April 16, 2015, 08:15:24 AM
Nice report thank you.
Wow Brent it’s not often I disagree with you but, not even my favourite stretch at RSG
Apart from No3 the front nine at RSG is as good as it gets for me. When they grant complementaries, they set us off from 10 and maybe I prefer the course that way. (Apart from the drive from the Clubhouse of course).
But I’m not so keen on 10 as some of you. The drive is pretty flat and uninteresting and the second shot really does have great appeal and as Michael says those who only know it from pictures are in for a BIG surprise. My problem comes if you miss the green the sides are so steep they can’t be maintained and sometimes finding a ball is difficult and recovering for ordinary mortals is impossible. So it’s a hole I love precisely because I don’t play it that often.
No 11 same as Sean for me. Maybe it just looks better to a left who wants to hit a running draw?
12 is one of my favourite holes pretty much anywhere.  Get over the ridge and you can stil end up with some interesting linksy lies.

From there 13-15 are all solid holes but perhaps lacking in the inspiration found on the front 9? Agreed the terrain isn’t ideal but we are talking about a great course and this is why I find the back 9 easily the lesser of the two. Love the finish though.

If you haven’t played there don’t be put off by my nitpicking!.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-13
Post by: Michael Felton on April 16, 2015, 08:37:42 AM
It took me 20 years of playing there, but I did last year finally figure out that the line off the 13th tee is indeed the right edge of the Princes lodge.

Mark - there is another option on the 5th, which is to play safer out to the right a bit. It leaves you a longer shot in, but avoids the risk of those bunkers. I don't think there's any harm in it being that hard to hit the perfect spot. I find that easier to hit than the fairway on 15 threading through those godforsaken bunkers, with so little definition around the hole. Third option when the rough is down like now is to hit it left. You get a much shorter shot in although you can't see the green.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-13
Post by: Sean_A on April 17, 2015, 06:16:02 AM
Chappers

While #5 isn't my favourite hole, it is far from weak.  As Michael states, there is room out right...which is the way I suspect most people play anyway. 

Spangles - I am slowly changing my opinion on the great quality disparity between the 9s.  When I break down my favourites; 2, 4, 9, 12, 15 & 16 it comes out pretty even.  Each 9 has a par 3 which doesn't do a lot for me, but the back 9 has the superior par 5 which is actually a very good hole.  Chuck in the 10th and the very good 17th and I think that so called disparity fades away.  Most people opt for the more dunesy land, but it takes good flat holes to complete the picture and Sandwich excells in this regard. 

SANDWICH TOUR CONT.

The namesake of the fourteenth awaits the golfer off the tee...in the summer anyway  8) .  After a brief pause to debate if The Suez Canal is reachable, one must hit and hope if he wants to reach this green in two.  The bold line is down the right with the dreaded stakes standing erect and brightly white, the colour of danger in golf circles.  The safer line left leaves yet another perilous decision to be made for the next shot.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4393/35579138154_77b2a61210_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4393/35579138154_77b2a61210_b.jpg)

A relatively easy pitch remains for the brave who are successful at taking on the trouble for the second shot..
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4402/36017841230_59db8452f5_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4402/36017841230_59db8452f5_b.jpg)

The final leg of the triangle brings us back near the 13th tee and 12th green  There are a few other triangles (but not successive holes) which make it convenient for those not wanting to play 18 holes; a design benefit not often properly recognized.  After #9 one can jump on 17 for an eleven hole loop.  Players can also move from #2 to #9 tee without much hassle and from there complete a boozer's loop of 1, 2, 9, 17 & 18. But let us get back to the fantastic 15th.  As is often the case at Sandwich, the drive is not well defined nor visually impressive.  The 15th is slightly out of character with the other holes as the fairway bunkers in the driving zone pinch and those further up the fairway are akin to the Thames Barrier.  One must pay the toll previously to have a chance at passing through (over) the gates. The long approach is very exacting in either trying to carry the three fairway bunkers or the green.   The green feeds from left to right with a lip on the high side which may aid the ever so slightly pulled approach.  The common error is to lose one right from which there is a reasonable hope of a good recovery.   
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4440/36017841020_49020380e3_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4440/36017841020_49020380e3_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Michael Felton on April 17, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
Sean - what are your thoughts on the new green on 14? From a scoring perspective, I definitely preferred the old one, but the new one gives me fits with the second shot. Those two bunkers short are perfectly placed to make it more awkward and if you wimp out and hit it left, your approach shot is about 100 times harder than from the right hand side. I love holes that give you the option of when you want to take the difficulty. Lay up or pitch. The great thing about this hole is it starts on the tee. The lay up is far easier from the right side of the fairway, but it's a brave soul who hits it there on purpose (or a lucky/stupid one).

15 is just really hard. The tees we played it from last week were about 435 into the wind. There's another tee back at 478. In one respect it's easier from there because you don't have to worry about the bunkers off the tee, but on the other hand, you can't get there in two...(I can't anyway - we could barely get there from the 436 tee).
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Bill_McBride on April 18, 2015, 08:53:59 PM
Do the big hitters carry the Suez with their tee shots?

I was so intimidated I topped my second into it twice!
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Thomas Dai on April 19, 2015, 04:27:20 AM
Martin Ebert is consulting at Sandwich now. They have rebuilt a few bunkers this winter with more to follow. In particular the big bunkers on the fourth are in very bad condition and need rebuilding, which is planned for later this year. The plan is to remove the timber and have them blowout style.

How long have the sleepers been part of the tee shot bunkers on the 4th? Anyone have a photo they could post of what the bunkers were like before the sleepers were installed?

atb
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Mark Chaplin on April 19, 2015, 05:32:22 AM
Bill I've never seen anyone carry the canal, Michael may have seen a Hewitt player take it on down wind when the match was in a hopeless position? Its a 300+ yard carry and IMO a risk shot with no real reward.

Now the green has been softened a tad its a very good hole. Sean's picture of Phillip playing the approach shows it's a high tariff lay up to come in from the ideal line. Play left and your approach is over bunkers with OOB looming very close to the edge of the green. The hole cost Johnson any chance of winning the 2011 Open
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Michael Felton on April 19, 2015, 07:48:57 AM
Bill I've never seen anyone carry the canal, Michael may have seen a Hewitt player take it on down wind when the match was in a hopeless position? Its a 300+ yard carry and IMO a risk shot with no real reward.

Now the green has been softened a tad its a very good hole. Sean's picture of Phillip playing the approach shows it's a high tariff lay up to come in from the ideal line. Play left and your approach is over bunkers with OOB looming very close to the edge of the green. The hole cost Johnson any chance of winning the 2011 Open

I've never even seen anyone in the burn. It's a heck of a long way. Never seen the pros try it either. Risk is very high and it's a heck of a long carry. Got to be 320 I would think to be safe. Depending on the tees. I did hear about a Hewitt player who hit his drive out of bounds on the 18th. Maybe he could think about it.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Sean_A on April 19, 2015, 07:24:33 PM
Michael

The newish work on 14 has now made the hole quite strategic. Before the OOB wasn't used as well to offer a clear advantage for taking it on.  Thumbs up for me.

SANDWICH TOUR CONT

If the round has clobbered your soul the sight of the house mercifully looms in the distance (middle right), but we musn't be over-anxious as three holes remain. It is difficult to understand how any course, let alone one of St Georges reputation, could possibly not have at least one great par 3. Sorry to say, but that is the case.  Other than the long walks between greens and tees, the short holes are the only negative commentary I can countenance.  Even so, just as 6 is a bit of a break, so it can be true for the 16th.  There are several acres of big hitting before and after so a power interruption is a blessing despite the rather straight forward nature of the hole. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4398/35579137914_b8251f30bd_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4398/35579137914_b8251f30bd_b.jpg)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7912/47235624552_59d017b2ff_b.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7912/47235624552_59d017b2ff_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Peter Pallotta on April 19, 2015, 09:50:07 PM
Thanks, Sean, as always. I only know the Open rota from photos; these photos present a course that seems both typical and atypical of that rota. It's interesting to read your posts carefully and reflect on the reasons why. 

Btw, most already know that Fleming used Sandwich as the model for Royal St Marks in "Goldfinger".  But reading the latest wiki post on this, it appears that Bond's match against Goldfinger was based more on Fleming's experience (in 1957, the year before he published the book) as Peter Thompson's partner in the Bowmaker Pro-Am at the Berkshire Golf Club.

Peter
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Ed Tilley on April 20, 2015, 05:08:04 AM
There are several acres of big hitting before and after so a power interruption is a blessing despite the rather straight forward nature of the hole.  

Try telling that to Thomas Bjorn!
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Thomas Dai on April 20, 2015, 06:33:37 AM
There are several acres of big hitting before and after so a power interruption is a blessing despite the rather straight forward nature of the hole.  

Try telling that to Thomas Bjorn!

I believe the first televised hole-in-one seen on UK TV was made by Tony Jacklin on the 16th hole back in the late 1960's. Black and white TV coverage though, not colour.

atb
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Sean_A on April 20, 2015, 10:45:59 AM
Pietro

Should the opportunity come when you can play in GB&I and you want to see a championship course, make sure it is either TOC or Sandwich...preferably both. 

SANDWICH TOUR CONT.

Back to tough nuts golf with #17.  Despite the hole legging left, the drive is similar to #8 with the drive being open yet somehow ill-defined. After the drive the hole continues as you sail through swelling waves of dunes finishing at a raised green with a pronounced false front. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4337/36017840800_3441a78935_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4337/36017840800_3441a78935_b.jpg)

The home hole is very good, but it is often overlooked because it seems to finish in a farmer's field.  I believe the building on the left is for the Permit Holders GC (ie Artisans) which doubles as a scoring hut during The Open.  It is pleasing to know that not all clubs have done away with this quaint tradition. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4401/35579137574_49ce19307a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4401/35579137574_49ce19307a_b.jpg)

While heavily and perhaps overly modernized, Sandwich stands along side The Old Course as far and away the most interesting Open rota course.  Royal St Georges is vast, vital and awash with admirable details...yet the course remains playable for the handicap golfer. What more can one ask for in a championship course?  2*.  2015

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/royal-st-georges-golf-club/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/royal-st-georges-golf-club/)

An incredible set of photos by Jason Livy which are equally beautiful and relevant.
www.jasonlivy.com/golf/golf-courses/royal-st-georges-golf-club/#section0 (http://www.jasonlivy.com/golf/golf-courses/royal-st-georges-golf-club/#section0)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Brent Hutto on April 20, 2015, 10:53:21 AM
Royal St Georges is vast, vital and awash with admirable details...yet the course remains playable for the handicap golfer.  What more can one ask for in a championship course?

Very well stated, Sean. And thanks for the photo tour.

My only other Open rota course played is Royal Birkdale. I thought quite highly of Birkdale (tempered of course by the usurious green fee) and thought it was also "awash with admirable details" and "playable for the handicap golfer". But the "vast, vital" aspect of Royal St. George's is pretty much unmatched in my experience.

Sandwich is the one of the few courses where even tramping about watching other people play golf (as a spectator of a tournament) has a feeling of excitement and adventure that usually only happens when I'm playing golf myself. It's a very special place.

Shot for shot, hole for hole at least for this high handicapper's game Royal Cinque Ports is a near match for Royal St. George's. The part that's an unfair comparison is the setting, the property itself IMO. The scale of the topography, the textures of the grasses, the way that flag at the clubhouse comes in and out of view as does the sea...it's all absolutely perfect as far as I'm concerned. As in literally could not be any better.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 20, 2015, 11:15:26 AM
I'm with Finegan - RSG is England's greatest course, by some distance. None of the Lancashire links hold a candle to it imo, and though I love Deal, Sandwich is a clear step above.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Mark Chaplin on April 20, 2015, 01:24:23 PM
Spot on Adam, Royal Birkdale seems to sit within the dunes and has pretty flat fairways, Sandwich lives amongst the dunes. It is the best course in England.

I believe the Permit Holders clubhouse was refurbished for the 2011 Open, it serves as the scorers pavilion. Are there many artisans sections up north or in Scotland? Both my clubs Desl and Worplesdon have artisans sections and are better clubs for it.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Garland Bayley on April 20, 2015, 05:27:48 PM
Do the big hitters carry the Suez with their tee shots?

I was so intimidated I topped my second into it twice!

Wouldn't that be your second and your fourth? ;)
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Sean_A on April 20, 2015, 07:40:41 PM
I'm with Finegan - RSG is England's greatest course, by some distance. None of the Lancashire links hold a candle to it imo, and though I love Deal, Sandwich is a clear step above.

Adam

I long thought this as well, then recently changed my opinion.  But then my recent stint at Sandwich has reconfirmed that Georges is the greater course and one of a handful of the very best in GB&I.  The main reason for the flip flop is each time I go back to Sandwich the greens are more and more interesting; something I don't think the course is given enough credit for.  Whatever, I can fully understand the preference of either one over the other because they are such different courses.  Still, I can't help but wonder if a greater course was lost with modernization.

SANDWICH TOUR CONT.

Much like Rye (both towns of about 5000 residents), Sandwich is an historic town which was a Cinque Port. It may seem strange today, but nearby Deal was a Limb of Sandwich, hence it is odd that Deal should corral the title "Cinque Ports" for its golf club.  These days Sandwich is 2 miles from the sea and the wonderful dunes providing for thrilling golf is testament to the coastline shift.  In one sense, it was a blessing the town was marooned from the sea for it meant that Sandwich would have little reason to grow at pace; what remains is a charming town which suits the disposition of Royal St Georges.  Many golfers fail to explore the handsome town...see a few photos below.

High Street.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4435/35606625373_da2cf12ca0_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4435/35606625373_da2cf12ca0_b.jpg)

Barbican at the end of the bridge over The River Stour acted as a toll gate.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4342/35579137434_733ccd5155_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4342/35579137434_733ccd5155_b.jpg)

The temptation will be to stay in much larger Deal, but Sandwich offers its own rewards.

Previous 2014-15 Winter Tour Tour Stops:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60863.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60863.0.html)  Canterbury 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40029.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40029.0.html)  Edgbaston 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html)  Little Aston 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html)  Formby 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.0.html)  Formby Ladies 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60660.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60660.0.html)  Stinchcombe Hill   

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html)  Huntercombe

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html)  Notts 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48115.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48115.0.html)  Moseley 
 
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.0.html)  Worplesdon 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.0.html)  Walton Heath New 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html)  Cumberwell Park Orange 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html)  Kington 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html)  Cleeve Cloud 

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Thomas Dai on April 21, 2015, 04:30:29 AM
As ever a very fine photo tour and commentary. Thank you Sean.

From my visits to either play the course or to watch The Open one thing has always struck me about RStG - all that space and only 18-holes.

Bingmap extract - http://binged.it/1G2C4xR

atb
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Sean_A on April 21, 2015, 05:09:27 AM
TBD

The odd thing is on the map the site for Deal doesn't look that much smaller than Sandwich.  For lack of a better way for a person of my limited technical skills, Sandwich only seems five or six holes bigger if the holes were shoe horned in.  Much of the site is dedicated to stuff not related to the course.  But when on the sites, Sandwich seems far larger.  Can someone out there measure the course and house grounds for each place?

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 21, 2015, 05:10:45 AM
But Sean, five or six holes is 30-odd per cent bigger!
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Sean_A on April 21, 2015, 05:18:45 AM
But Sean, five or six holes is 30-odd per cent bigger!

Adam

But Sandwich seems much bigger than that...at least twice the size of Deal and 5 or 6 shoe horned holes is only three Sandwich holes  :D.  None of Sandwich is shoe horned like Deal is.  This is why I was wondering what the acerage measurement for the courses are.  Maybe Sandwich is twice the size, but it sure doesn't seem that way on the map...I am very surprised at how similar in size they look.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 21, 2015, 05:40:24 AM
I found a tool that allowed me to make a rough drawing around the courses using Google Maps and would then calculate the area.

RCP -- 177 acres
RSG - 253 acres
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Sean_A on April 21, 2015, 05:54:27 AM
Adam

Thanks.  That pretty much confirms the 30% larger thesis. 

Does the measurement include all the extraneous (Sec and Green keeper houses, practice ground and Artisan house etc) land at Sandwich? 

Perhaps what is more surprising is that Deal is 177 acres!  The property seems small, but it ain't.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 21, 2015, 06:10:50 AM
The Sandwich property is quite complicated. I drew a line basically around the golf holes so it probably excluded a bunch of stuff.

For Deal, I just used the road and the seawall as the boundaries.

I think RCP seems smaller than it is. There is a lot of space between the holes at the far end of the property.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Michael Felton on April 21, 2015, 08:15:10 AM
I think Sandwich feels bigger because it's more round, while Deal is very long, but kind of narrow (though I never feel like the holes are on top of each other). At Deal you can always see the perimeter of the course, but at Sandwich there are several spots where you are surrounded by golf course. Most of the holes are also fairly isolated at RSG because of the dunes, so you have that feeling of aloneness when you play it.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Sean_A on April 24, 2015, 04:03:32 AM
Michael

Thats a good point about not being able to see the borders of the property in a ton of spots even though the site is wide open and distant views are open everywhere. 

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on April 24, 2015, 04:34:28 AM
I'm with Finegan - RSG is England's greatest course, by some distance. None of the Lancashire links hold a candle to it imo, and though I love Deal, Sandwich is a clear step above.

I agree with the No1 course ranking and I've felt that every time I've played there. But happily every time I play Deal, I think the difference is not as clear cut as you make out.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: John Mayhugh on April 28, 2015, 01:11:04 PM
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Sean_A on April 29, 2015, 04:09:15 AM
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Thanks Tucky.  I really wonder how much cool stuff was sacrificed at Sandwich for the sake of the Open...maybe a touch too much?

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 29, 2015, 10:44:02 AM
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Spot on, imo. Sandwich is the links that best combines championship and quirk - the thing that true links lovers love.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
Post by: Bill_McBride on April 29, 2015, 06:54:08 PM
Do the big hitters carry the Suez with their tee shots?

I was so intimidated I topped my second into it twice!

Wouldn't that be your second and your fourth? ;)


No, two different rounds.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Sean_A on May 06, 2015, 04:54:45 AM
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Spot on, imo. Sandwich is the links that best combines championship and quirk - the thing that true links lovers love.

I spose the only challenger is TOC.  With the scores routinely recorded around there it is difficult to say TOC is a true championship test...in the modern sense of the term.  On the flip side, the lack of true championship grit is probably a great thing for golf.  Now all we have to do is convince developers, owners and archies that this is the case.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: jeffwarne on May 06, 2015, 09:47:14 PM
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Spot on, imo. Sandwich is the links that best combines championship and quirk - the thing that true links lovers love.

I spose the only challenger is TOC.  With the scores routinely recorded around there it is difficult to say TOC is a true championship test...in the modern sense of the term.  On the flip side, the lack of true championship grit is probably a great thing for golf.  Now all we have to do is convince developers, owners and archies that this is the case.

Ciao

Sean,
The sooner well traveled afficionados such as yourself acknowledge courses such as St. Andrews as "true championship tests", the sooner developers, owners and architects might be convinced .
I would argue that St. Andrews has done a far better job of identifying great players of every era than any other specially prepared torture chamber.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Sean_A on May 07, 2015, 07:31:48 AM
Gen Sherman

Yes, perhaps, if one believes courses identify champions. TOC will do well in this regard mainly because it has hosted a good share of Opens in all eras  8).   Muirfield likely comes out on top for great winners with far less attempts than TOC.  Sandwich doesn't do badly either except in recent years going back to Rogers and Curtis.  But of course, I don't believe courses identify champions. 

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Jon Wiggett on May 10, 2015, 03:35:32 AM
Gen Sherman

Yes, perhaps, if one believes courses identify champions. TOC will do well in this regard mainly because it has hosted a good share of Opens in all eras  8).   Muirfield likely comes out on top for great winners with far less attempts than TOC.  Sandwich doesn't do badly either except in recent years going back to Rogers and Curtis.  But of course, I don't believe courses identify champions. 

Ciao

To be fair to Rogers he was in the middle of a very good streak when he won and Curtis though a shock has shown he is a decent player. You are right about Muirfield though.

Jon
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 07, 2015, 01:03:12 PM
Anyone care to join me at RSG this Friday?
 
I have a tee-time at 3.40. As things presently sit, I am on my own.
 
Ally
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Bill Gayne on July 14, 2015, 04:20:27 PM
Just left Kent for the first time and if I knew how good the golf (Deal and Sandwich) was I would have come sooner. Looking forward to returning.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Brent Hutto on July 14, 2015, 05:50:56 PM
Just left Kent for the first time and if I knew how good the golf (Deal and Sandwich) was I would have come sooner. Looking forward to returning.


If I were wealthier, I might go there every year. Three or four rounds at Deal plus a 36-hole day at RSG, all the while staying at the Number One is as good a week as I could ever hope to enjoy. All that plus London just a train ride away.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 15, 2015, 03:46:44 AM
Just left Kent for the first time and if I knew how good the golf (Deal and Sandwich) was I would have come sooner. Looking forward to returning.


If I were wealthier, I might go there every year. Three or four rounds at Deal plus a 36-hole day at RSG, all the while staying at the Number One is as good a week as I could ever hope to enjoy. All that plus London just a train ride away.

Most times I visit a new course, I know enough about it that it falls in the general area of my expectations, give or take.
 
I can happily say that my first visit to RSG on Friday exceeded my already sky high expectations, primarily because the green complexes and contouring were better than anyone had led me to believe. That and also the back nine was in no way a let down after the front nine. In fact, arguably it provides even better golf.
 
What a great course.... And what about those greens at Deal as well... A superb duo - I echo your sentiment, Brent...
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Sean_A on July 15, 2015, 03:58:18 AM
Mo

You don't read so well  ;)

Spangles - I am slowly changing my opinion on the great quality disparity between the 9s. When I break down my favourites; 2, 4, 9, 12, 15 & 16 it comes out pretty even.  Each 9 has a par 3 which doesn't do a lot for me, but the back 9 has the superior par 5 which is actually a very good hole. Chuck in the 10th and the very good 17th and I think that so called disparity fades away.  Most people opt for the more dunesy land, but it takes good flat holes to complete the picture and Sandwich excells in this regard. 
I agree with you concerning the greens...very good without being OTT.

Ciao
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 15, 2015, 04:06:39 AM

Mo


You don't read so well  ;)


Spangles - I am slowly changng my opinion on the great quality disparity between the 9s. When I break down my favourites; 2, 4, 9, 12, 15 & 16 it comes out pretty even.  Each 9 has a par 3 which doesn't do a lot for me, but the back 9 has the superior par 5 which is actually a very good hole. Chuck in the 10th and the very good 17th and I think that so called disparity fades away.  Most people opt for the more dunesy land, but it takes good flat holes to complete the picture and Sandwich excells in this regard. 

I agree with you concerning the greens...very good without being OTT.

Ciao

I don't read at all, Mr. Arble,
 
I try and avoid your photo tours when I know I'm visiting a course... They're far too informative and accurate... Best read after the fact.
Title: Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
Post by: Sean_A on July 15, 2015, 04:14:20 AM

Mo


You don't read so well  ;)


Spangles - I am slowly changng my opinion on the great quality disparity between the 9s. When I break down my favourites; 2, 4, 9, 12, 15 & 16 it comes out pretty even.  Each 9 has a par 3 which doesn't do a lot for me, but the back 9 has the superior par 5 which is actually a very good hole. Chuck in the 10th and the very good 17th and I think that so called disparity fades away.  Most people opt for the more dunesy land, but it takes good flat holes to complete the picture and Sandwich excells in this regard. 

I agree with you concerning the greens...very good without being OTT.

Ciao

I don't read at all, Mr. Arble,
 
I try and avoid your photo tours when I know I'm visiting a course... They're far too informative and accurate... Best read after the fact.

Mo

I always say you are sly like a fox.

Ciao