Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: JNC Lyon on March 17, 2015, 09:10:53 PM
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I have enjoyed my public golf experience in the state of Florida. The typical image of Florida golf is a triple threat of cart paths, houses, and gratuitous use of water hazards. In my places, especially the swampy coastal areas like Sarasota and Naples, this is sadly true. But venture off the beaten path a bit where the concentration of out-of-state plates is a bit lighter, you will find a motley mix of fun golfing experiences.
My top 10 so far:
1. Streamsong Blue. It gets the Red by a nose in my book, mainly because of the greens. I wrote in another thread: "The beauty of the greens at SS Blue are that Doak always gives you enough rope to either climb out of a hole or hang yourself. It's up to the golfer how they want to use that rope." Also, I do not remember playing a better final four holes.
2. Streamsong Red. Also tremendous, obviously. I really dig the stretch from 7 to 11, and 14 is my favorite par three on the property.
3. World Woods Pine Barrens. Call me a Kool-Aid drinker, but I think it's a very cool golf course. The front nine in particular is a ton of fun, and the short four at 15 is a blast as well. I also prefer the rugged scruffy look of today to the blinding white sandy I see in course photos from the early 90s.
4. World Woods Rolling Oaks. This one came way up in my book on a second play, and for now it's only a notch below the PB. The grand par five 3rd is the highlight of the front nine, and the back nine is one solid hole after another with two great short par fours at 12 and 17. I even enjoy the controversial 18th hole, which I think has one of the best green settings on the property. The front nine at PB and the back nine at RO would make for a tremendous 18 holes.
5. Brooksville Country Club. A great set of par fives, unexpected elevation change, and a quarry make this one a treat. But don't tell anyone I told you about it.
6. Belleview Biltmore. My favorite Ross course I've played in Florida (strangely, I have not been invited to Seminole yet). The par threes are the highlight here, ranging from the low-lying third to the volcano 15th. It's also an intimate routing with a puzzling set of greens, and the two finishing holes make you pucker up at just the right moment in the round. I just hate the carts-only policy for non-members. Grrrr.
7. Dunes at Seville. Technically, it is just called Dunes, but I prefer the Seville suffix to distinguish it from a gaggle of courses with the same name. This would probably be higher on my list if it were not for the abysmal conditioning, which is a minor factor but a factor nonetheless. I've played several mediocre courses from Fart Hills but this one is top-notch. I especially like the back to back par fives to finish, both of which have absolutely wicked greens. Play it when you're in Brooksville, and suspend your disbelief about the conditioning to enjoy a fun architectural show.
8. Deltona. Lots of fun golf out here, especially because of the big action on the elevation changes and complete absence of water hazards.The short fours at 8, 15, and, yes, 18 are highlights. However, this is one of the worst public golf experiences I've ever had, period. It shouldn't factor into the discussion here, but it does. Get it together up there in Brevard County.
9. Fort Myers Country Club. I really dig the Steve Smyers re-do here, and his completely original par five 11th is great. You also some epic green complexes that test your short game with extreme prejudice. But the drawback here will always be that the course is shoehorned into 100 acres. This makes for some awkward moments. Also, the manmade ponds all over the property are just plain ugly.
10. Cleveland Heights Composite Course. Lakeland stand up! I debated a few courses for this spot, which I left open for the unloved but charming public course that reminds of that girl Jagger was talking about in "Far Away Eyes." Heights took it for me, but it did so with a bit of an asterisk: the general golfing public can't (usually) play the course I'm talking about it here. The A nine contains 7 of 9 original Flynn holes (the other two that originally went back and forth from the Yacht Club are long since buried), but the original second 9 is scattered among the B and C nines. But on an empty day, you can skip around and play the original 9-hole loop. What you get here is a course that forces all different types of shot shapes and contains some of those vexing Flynn greens. There are worse ways to spend an afternoon.
So what say you? What are your favorite publics (not Publix) in the state of Florida? Do you hate Florida golf, or, like me, do you think it has its bright spots?
P.S. Special thanks to Kyle Harris, who has guided me to 9 of the 10 courses on this list.
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No order here, but these are the ten I enjoy the most (still need to play some courses in the panhandle):
Palatka
Mission Inn - El Campeon
World Woods PB
World Woods RO
Deltona Club
Victoria Hills
Streamsong Red
Streamsong Blue
Ocala Golf Club
Hyde Park
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Lyon,
I've heard The Dunes is closed again. Which is sad, but it's not something I've confirmed.
I think my list would mimic yours, except since Dunes is closed replace it with Southern Dunes.
Obviously, I'd flip the World Woods courses, and perhaps drop Pine Barrens below Belleview Biltmore but above Brooksville by a nose. There is more to seek out.
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Anyone like West Palm Beach muni?
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Anyone like West Palm Beach muni?
Of those not mentioned, my list would include WPB, as well as Park Ridge and Ponte Vedra Ocean.
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Harris,
I totally forgot about Southern Dunes. It's a nice swap with Dunes at Seville if that is indeed closed (although it's closed a few times before).
Mark F,
Ponte Vedra Ocean looks really cool. I still haven't played a Herbert Strong course (although Clearwater CC looks like it has potential). What's the best tactic for playing Ponte Vedra? I've seen it listed as "public access," but the website doesn't seem welcoming for non-resort guests.
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Refreshing my recollection since I haven't been to Florida in awhile, I'd like to mention the following publics of note in no particular order:
North Palm Beach
Venetian Golf & River Club
Victoria Hills
Red Tail
University Park
Park Ridge
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Streamsong Red
Streamsong Blue
TPC Sawgrass
WW - Pine Barrens
Southern Dunes (?) - Haines City
Plantation - Fort Myers
River Hall
Old Corkscrew
The rest do not belong on a list - I have probably played 5-10 more and can't think of any that I would recommend. I cannot remember Sarasota National or Veandah very well. They might have been decent.
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Harris,
I totally forgot about Southern Dunes. It's a nice swap with Dunes at Seville if that is indeed closed (although it's closed a few times before).
Mark F,
Ponte Vedra Ocean looks really cool. I still haven't played a Herbert Strong course (although Clearwater CC looks like it has potential). What's the best tactic for playing Ponte Vedra? I've seen it listed as "public access," but the website doesn't seem welcoming for non-resort guests.
I stayed at the resort, but it was one of the best values I've experienced anywhere. Me and my buddy paid $230 total for a room and unlimited golf. The entire complex is excellent; it puts Bay Hill to shame. As far as the course, it was fast and firm with some great movement in the fairways and really well placed hazards. Fantastic greens too. I'm always surprised it doesn't get more respect. The course was empty on a Saturday afternoon in February, so maybe it's not impossible getting on without staying over.
Steve, glad to see another Park Ridge fan. Such a fun course and unlike anything else I've ever played in Florida.
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In order of value
Miami springs
Ocala gc
Deltona
Brooks vile
Ww
Ww
Dunes Seville
Stream song
Stream song
10? Lekerica,Pinecrest,Bartow,West palm beach
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In order of value
Miami springs
Ocala gc
Deltona
Brooks vile
Ww
Ww
Dunes Seville
Stream song
Stream song
10? Lekerica,Pinecrest,Bartow,West palm beach
Come on, Lekarica?
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As usual Old Florida, the Panhandle, is ignored. There's some decent golf up here in Baja Alabama. Camp Creek, Shark's Tooth, Eglin AFB's Eagle and Falcon courses, the Hombre in Panama City......
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In order of value
Miami springs
Ocala gc
Deltona
Brooks vile
Ww
Ww
Dunes Seville
Stream song
Stream song
10? Lekerica,Pinecrest,Bartow,West palm beach
Come on, Lekarica?
That was a bit of value/enjoyment play
For example I'd play Lekerica (conditioning warts and all) over a return to Isleworth (at comp + caddie) TPC (at retail)Doral (even if comped)
to name a few well knowns.
Victoria Hills-decent value but just not memorable if that helps with perspective.
But I like museum pieces and don't know what a shot value is.
fair enough Lekerica probably wouldn't be in anyone else's Top 10 in its condition but pretty good once you get through 1 and 2 and I go for enjoyment, not tests
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Jeff, I hear what you're saying but I just couldn't see much of anything left at Lekarica. Certainly not to the point where I'd place it above, say, Pinecrest or Cleveland Heights.
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Another vote for El Campeon and, my home course, Ocala Golf Club. El Diablo closing was also a real loss to this list.
I really need to get over to Deltona..
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Capital City in Tallahassee is now public and if anyone has played there, I would like to know if it would make your top 10 public list in FL.
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Jeff, I hear what you're saying but I just couldn't see much of anything left at Lekarica. Certainly not to the point where I'd place it above, say, Pinecrest or Cleveland Heights.
Cleveland Heights was supposed to be on my list!
Ok out goes Lekerika
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No love for any of the PGA Golf Club courses? I really enjoyed Dye's course there. The old South Course (now called Wannamaker) was enjoyable.
Ken
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Lekarica is the type of golf course which all of the so-called GolfClubAtlas Cognoscenti claim to value; yet when it comes to nut-cutting time, few actually take the time and effort to appreciate what it is, and what it very much could be given a little care and cash.
I try to play it twice a year or so. It's good for the golfing soul. The 9th is a cracker of a Par 5.
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Lekarica is the type of golf course which all of the so-called GolfClubAtlas Cognoscenti claim to value; yet when it comes to nut-cutting time, few actually take the time and effort to appreciate what it is, and what it very much could be given a little care and cash.
I try to play it twice a year or so. It's good for the golfing soul. The 9th is a cracker of a Par 5.
Lekarica has bones of a solid course. Yeah the conditioning isn't any good, but it's worth playing and I guarantee you won't be disappointed based on what you pay to play the course.
Now that Lake Wales CC is public, you can play two decent courses for close to under $50 bucks (walking) that are only a couple of miles from each other.
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Thoughts on TPC Sawgrass? I know it's expensive but take that factor out.
I honestly think it's better than both Streamsong Red & Blue. It's just really unique and I think its a strong representation of the best of Dye.
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Rees,
I'm excited to play Lake Wales, Deltona, and Lekarica next winter! This thread is great, but I don't want to think about winter for a long long time.
Jeff,
Is Lekarica the Goat Hill of Florida? The course that isn't maint. well and has much of the minimalism that is valued on GCA? Is it the acid test for a maint buff?
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Haven't played enough in Florida to have a list, but I did recently play Hyde Park in Jacksonville. Supposedly an old Ross that has been modified over the years. It used to host a Tour event in the 40s (Hogan made an 11 on the par 3 7th). The greens were like shag carpet, but they were good greens. The bunkering was unfortunate, but you can see the bones of a good course. And it was $20.
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Streamsong Blue
Streamsong Red
TPC Sawgrass
World Woods – Pine Barrens
Mission Inn - El Campeon
World Woods – Rolling Oaks
Brooksville CC
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In roughly descending order:
Streamsong Blue
Streamsong Red
World Woods Pine Barrens
Old Corkscrew
Disney World Magnolia
Disney World Palm
Eastwood
Shell Point
Heron Creek
Bobcat Trail
Ft. Myers Country Club
I wanted to check out the work Steve Smyers did at Ft. Myers CC when we were there in February, but the redesign is proving popular, I guess. We couldn't get a tee time. The Disney courses are a holdover from a trip I made there more than 20 years ago, so I can't vouch for their quality today. Eastwood, Shell Point, Heron Creek and Bobcat are nothing special, but enjoyable enough on their own modest merits.
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Capital City in Tallahassee is now public and if anyone has played there, I would like to know if it would make your top 10 public list in FL.
It's a Tillinghast that was going to be restored, but apparently no one was willing to spend the money.
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Thoughts on TPC Sawgrass? I know it's expensive but take that factor out.
I honestly think it's better than both Streamsong Red & Blue. It's just really unique and I think its a strong representation of the best of Dye.
I love Sawgrass and think that it is underrated with the GCA crowd.
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Rees,
I'm excited to play Lake Wales, Deltona, and Lekarica next winter! This thread is great, but I don't want to think about winter for a long long time.
Jeff,
Is Lekarica the Goat Hill of Florida? The course that isn't maint. well and has much of the minimalism that is valued on GCA? Is it the acid test for a maint buff?
No Lekarica's maintenance detracts from the playing as the fairways are often meadows and or soft sand.
With some improved maintenance it would be praised by many here. it's just nearly too far gone, but it's a real 18 hole course.
The Goat maintenance (lack of) meld enhances the course. Greens are true despie minimal maintenance and the right pace for the slopes (severe) Minimal grass in the fairways allows it to play fiery, in fact the only time the Goat isn't a blast is when spring rains and no mowing (or an attempt to actually grow seed) prevent the runups that are so much fun at The Goat.
Not sure improved maintenance would create more fans at the Goat-you either get it or you don't and frequent plays simply reveal more fun.
I am always amazed at the gems that the Treehouse reveals , but I'm sure the Goat is not for everyone.
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Nice thread, JNC. I've got a hankering for Florida golf, especially after this winter.
Deltona intrigues me. Mike Sweeney often extolled its virtues here on GCA and with looks like this it is easy to understand why:
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/GCA/DC5a_zpscaftwqrp.jpg~original)
[I'm not sure how old this photo is...plucked from a GCA thread a few years back I believe.]
Edit:
My top 10
Streamsong Blue
Streamsong Red
TPC Sawgrass
World Woods Pine Barrens
Dunes
Biltmore Coral Gables
World Woods Rolling Oaks
Brooksville
Bay Hill
Miccosukee
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Any of you guys ever play Sara Bay in Sarasota? Donald Ross course retored by Brian Silva. I'm playing in an event there next Monday. Kind of curious to check it out since I've never heard of it before.
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Bill
Never played there when I visited Sarasota but found this:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50073.msg1135356/topicseen.html#msg1135356
I think JNC Lyon played there recently. Can't find his thread.
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Streamsong Red (Haven't played Blue yet)
TPC Sawgrass Stadium
World Woods Pine Barrens
World Woods Rolling Oaks
Grande Pines (Soon to be NLE)
New Course Grand Cypress
Orange County National Crooked Cat
Harmony Preserve
TPC Sawgrass Valley Course
TPC Tampa Bay.
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I'm planning to play either WPB or North PB tomorrow (3/19) afternoon, if anyone is in the area and interested in meeting up.
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I'm planning to play either WPB or North PB tomorrow (3/19) afternoon, if anyone is in the area and interested in meeting up.
play both!
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Abacoa in Jupiter is fantastic. The conditions and design/layout are much better than West Palm. North Palm Beach Country Club is fun and a should see. The greens at Abacoa are exceptional, giving Abacoa the nod over North Palm Beach.
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Osprey Point down in Boca Raton is a really solid 27 hole facility with a nice driving range and practice area. Plenty of width and some good elevation change and well priced at around $50 in season.
WPB muni is OK but they put groups out at 7 minute intervals so most of the time pace of play is an issue. They did a nice job of cleaning out the overgrowth and put in sandy waste areas but used the wrong type of sand so carts cannot drive in it which also slows things down.
Links at Madison Green was pretty good although it was pricey at times.
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They did a nice job of cleaning out the overgrowth and put in sandy waste areas but used the wrong type of sand so carts cannot drive in it which also slows things down.
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The wrong type of sand?
Isn't that sand simply sand with the native vegetation cleaned out?
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They did a nice job of cleaning out the overgrowth and put in sandy waste areas but used the wrong type of sand so carts cannot drive in it which also slows things down.
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The wrong type of sand?
Isn't that sand simply sand with the native vegetation cleaned out?
Was wondering the exact same thing.
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I really enjoyed NPBCC's kooky greens; need to get back down there at some point. Unfortunately cannot make tomorrow, Brian.
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These courses vary wildly in price and that affects my desire and ability to play them again. Some are residential community courses that aren't really public but it has been relatively easy to get to play them.
Streamsong Blue
World Woods – Pine Barrens
TPC Sawgrass
Streamsong Red
TwinEagles - Eagle
Ocean Hammock - Conservatory
World Woods – Rolling Oaks
Old Corkscrew
Mission Inn - El Campeon
Verandah - Whispering Oaks
Deltona
Victoria Hills
Bella Collina
Southern Dunes
Juliette Falls
Sugarloaf Mountain
..........................................
Kyle, I played with a local at WW last week and he mentioned that he had played the Dunes recently but that there wasn't much grass in some of the fairways. Their web site is still active, so I presume they are still open. The site http://www.thedunesgolfclub.com/#!improvements/c16ri (http://www.thedunesgolfclub.com/#!improvements/c16ri) has some interesting before and after pics from the previous closing. I played there a couple of times some years ago, and I wouldn't go back with WW just around the corner and in much better condition and not much higher price.
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Lekarica is a total hoot. Like Dunes at Seville (before it closed), you need to suspend your disbelief a bit on the conditioning to really enjoy it. But once you do, you find there are a ton of fun holes melded together in a bone-chilling routing over a totally radical piece of property for "flat" Florida. Try the triumvirate of short par fours at 5, 6, and 8 on for size. Stiles and Van Kleek are the Grand Funk Railroad of golf course architects: that group you totally forget about that, when you look back at them, you realize had some really good work. I felt like I was getting closer to my home when I played Lekarica, and I much preferred the overall golfing experience there to the one at Deltona. Play it if you ever find yourself in Lake Wales, but watch out for the crop dusters.
Bryan I, et al,
Do you have thoughts on Juliette Falls? It's a course in the middle of nowhere designed by a guy nobody has ever heard of, but it consistently ranks in the Top 20 for Florida publics. I'd love to know more before I make the drive to the Ocala area.
Also, I hear Old Corkscrew is absolutely brutal. Would you rather play that over a Deltona or a Southern Dunes?
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Any of you guys ever play Sara Bay in Sarasota? Donald Ross course retored by Brian Silva. I'm playing in an event there next Monday. Kind of curious to check it out since I've never heard of it before.
Bill, this is a total thread-jack since we are talking about public courses here. But I recently played Sara Bay for the first time and posted these comments: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60545.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60545.0.html) Shoot me a PM if you are in Sarasota for an extended period of time.
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Do you have thoughts on Juliette Falls? It's a course in the middle of nowhere designed by a guy nobody has ever heard of, but it consistently ranks in the Top 20 for Florida publics. I'd love to know more before I make the drive to the Ocala area.
I live in Ocala and don't feel it's worth the drive even from here.. Granted, I haven't played it in a couple of years, but the couple times I made it out there I walked off thinking "meh." Perhaps I should make it back out there one of these days, but it's just so hard when OGC is less than a mile away..
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JNC,
JF, is an okay course. It has good land for FL and it is very well maint. The greens are the best maint I've putted on in Florida and I've played some nice clubs. There are some nice holes and some manufactured holes. I sent some friends a couple winters ago to play Ocala Golf Club and JF, they were pissed that they didn't play a 2nd 18 at OGC. I think much of the rankings are conditioning based too much. The other positive for some is JF has an empty parking lot experience there.
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Do you have thoughts on Juliette Falls? It's a course in the middle of nowhere designed by a guy nobody has ever heard of, but it consistently ranks in the Top 20 for Florida publics. I'd love to know more before I make the drive to the Ocala area.
I live in Ocala and don't feel it's worth the drive even from here.. Granted, I haven't played it in a couple of years, but the couple times I made it I walked off thinking "meh." Perhaps I should make it back out there one of these days, but it's just so hard when OGC is less than a mile away..
agreed
well conditioned "meh"
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Does either course at Lake Jovita make the list for anyone?!
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Does either course at Lake Jovita make the list for anyone?!
How public is lake Jovita?
definitely a moving target in Florida these days
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Does either course at Lake Jovita make the list for anyone?!
How public is lake Jovita?
definitely a moving target in Florida these days
Jovita is public or at least I thought it was.
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Bill - are you playing in the USGA Fourball on Monday at Sara Bay? It's a great course. I've played a US Mid-Am and FL Open there, and they set it up tough. Around the greens is tough, and I've not seen a Ross with so much front to back slope along with the turtle back.
JNC - Juliette Falls is worth playing. There are some manufactured "falls" that are completely unnecessary and out of place, but otherwise a good track.
Lake Jovita is pretty good, and public (there are members and stay and play guests, but public can play anytime). There are 36 holes. I have a friend who lives there, and play it frequently. They like to have the greens fast, sometimes too fast for the slopes, and each courses have two or three holes that are not very good, but otherwise a great facility. It's basically in the middle of nowhere, but worth the drive from Tampa or Orlando.
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Streamsong Blue
Streamsong Red
Camp Creek
World Woods Pine Barrens
TPC Sawgrass
Southern Dunes
Lagoon Legend NLE?
Sharks Tooth
Innisbrook Copperhead
Hammock Dunes Conservatory.
Eglin AFB Eagle
The big surprise here for me was the Watson Course at Hammock Dunes Zero expectations and we had a blast playing there. Eglin had a lot of elevation change for the Panhandle. Lagoon Legend was just so hard but appealed during a phase when I kind of liked that. Streamsong Blue, TPC Sawgrass, and WWPB would top the list if I were forced to rank.
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It was not just the sand that was left after clearing - they had to bring large amounts of additional sand.
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Do you have thoughts on Juliette Falls? It's a course in the middle of nowhere designed by a guy nobody has ever heard of, but it consistently ranks in the Top 20 for Florida publics. I'd love to know more before I make the drive to the Ocala area.
I played JF in December while visiting my parents in The Villages. Unless you find yourself within a 30 mile radius, I wouldn't go out of your way to play it. Some good holes. Some head scratchers and three waterfalls. Solid conditioning.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8667/16661355227_c69204d9ac_c.jpg)
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In no particular order
The Dye Preserve
Waldorf Astoria
PGA National - Championship
PGA National - Palmer
Grand Cypress - New
Mission Inn - El Campeon
Mission Inn - Las Colinas
Championsgate - International
Championsgate- National
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I made it down for FL for quick golf twice this winter. Didn't dislike any of the courses I played, so I'll list them all, but the starred ones I would play again:
Streamsong Red*
Streamsong Blue*
Biltmore Coral Gables*
Old Corkscrew
Crandon Park
Fort Myers CC was on my list too, but there was a pro tournament there the same weekend I visited.
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After you get by the consensus biggies at Streamsong and WW, I think Juliette Falls fits in nicely with the rest. I like the par 3's and the par 4 eigth also comes to mind. The landscaping is nice - even the waterfall holes. There is enough elevation change to keep things interesting. If you like the dormant brown Bermuda winter look this is the place to go. John Sanford, the architect, seems to have been in Egypt doing resorts and also the far east. And, interestingly, collaborated with Nicklaus on Ferry Point.
I'm surprised that more haven't found the Conservatory at Hammock Dunes. It's much better in my view than the more famous Ocean Hammock. It may be manufactured but they did a terrific job of createing micro movement in the fairways and the greens were challenging and interesting.
Old Corkscrew has been discussed on here before. Some hate it and some find it a challenge. No doubt it is tough for any caliber of player. A couple of weeks ago I was paired with two singles, both fresh from the northern states and as a result both rusty in their golf games. One of them had done his research and was looking for the course to be really challenging. After four holes he was down 8 balls - I asked him whether it was as difficult as he expected. He said he thought it was fair enough, he was just rusty. As we walked off the 18th I asked him again whether he thought it was challenging ( by then he was down more than a dozen balls). He was still adamant that it was a fair test and that it was just his rusty game. I think he was just a masochist. ;D
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I think Park Ridge (Case) in Lake Worth is worth a visit:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28386.0.html
As mentioned, Osprey Point is another Case course and is getting good reviews:
http://www.pbcgov.com/parks/sports/golf/ospreypoint/
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These lists put my own to shame.
I grew up in north Florida and have played nearly 50 public courses in the state, although I've only played a negligible number of rounds and courses there since 2004. In the parts of the state far from the coast, the "stereotypical" Florida course described by JNC is nonexistent; in fact, I was always puzzled when a member of this site threw out that term without clarifying what they meant.
There are only two or three public courses in Florida that I'd really like to play again.
TPC Sawgrass
El Diablo (NLE) - a cheap, thought-provoking tribute to Pine Valley that unfortunately went to seed last year
Amelia Island Oak Marsh - a subtle Dye course that always reminded me of (pictures and video of) Harbour Town
I had put Grand Cypress New in this category until I played the Old Course. It's likely that, for those who have seen PV and Harbour Town, the other two courses would not be of significant interest either.
I do have a few comments on other courses listed by folks in this thread.
Cleveland Heights - Surprised to see all the love. My father grew up there and loved it, but I don't think he's been back in decades, since his father joined a local private club. Consequently, I have driven by but never played. Is there much Flynn left there? (Is there much left on any course without immaculate maintenance and care, after 85 years?) Was there much of it in the early '70s, when my father was playing there? Is it worth a look for an out-of-state visitor? Also, those original opening and closing holes coming up and down from the Yacht Club must have been pretty stout, back in the day. (I knew that the Yacht Club had been the clubhouse, but did not know that the golf holes went through what is now the neighborhood.)
Palatka - I was standing on the practice green when I found out that Payne Stewart had died. Back then, there was little memorable or fun about the course. But I'm not surprised that Bobby Weed has transformed it into something special, given how much I love his Ross-torations at Timuquana and UF, and how much I like his original work at the World Golf Village and Amelia Island.
World Woods Pine Barrens - Admittedly, I have only seen the front nine. This was because our round there was intolerably slow and it seemed to me, after playing Rolling Oaks about 10 times in tournaments, that the courses were identical except for the contrivance of large waste areas in the rough at Pine Barrens. Perhaps the increased ruggedness referenced by JNC has improved the course over the last decade, but I am not likely to find out in person.
PGA Golf Club South/Wanamaker - My memories are only vague, but I do recall enjoying the six-hole pitch-and-putt more than this one. And the short course was not that good, anyway.
JB
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Just in case no one else has done so, those that are reporting that the Dunes at Seville is closed, are in err.
The El Diablo is closed, however. And would easily have made this list. For sure ahead of Brooksville cc.
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"Do you have thoughts on Juliette Falls? It's a course in the middle of nowhere designed by a guy nobody has ever heard of, but it consistently ranks in the Top 20 for Florida publics. I'd love to know more before I make the drive to the Ocala area."
JNC, played there ~ 3 years ago. I would not make a special trip from Sarasota (that's where you are?) just for Juliette Falls. Actually, if I was up that way honestly I would prefer to spend the time playing another round at World Woods.
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Lake Jovita is pretty good, and public (there are members and stay and play guests, but public can play anytime). There are 36 holes. I have a friend who lives there, and play it frequently. They like to have the greens fast, sometimes too fast for the slopes, and each courses have two or three holes that are not very good, but otherwise a great facility. It's basically in the middle of nowhere, but worth the drive from Tampa or Orlando.
Here are some pics of Lake Jovita North:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/LakeJovitaN/
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Cleveland Heights.
I feel the amount of Flynn remaining is a bit understated by oral legend and "The Nature Faker." The entire second nine is, indeed, intact with the possible exception of the last green. Of the four holes highlighted in "The Nature Faker," three still exist and what is in the ground in terms of contour on the putting green remains. So the important aspects of the golf course, routing and putting greens, are still there.
The bunker presentation is largely compromised and this can be documented both through the Flynn plans and historic aerials. The biggest examples of the losses here seem to be the "island in the sand" greens on today's A-7 and B-8 and the absolutely massive cross-bunker faced on the second shot of the Par 5 A-8.
That being said, in my opinion, the course is best played if one can make the jump from C-2 to C-7, and then from C-9 to B-1, 7, 8, 9 to complete the original second nine. Additionally, C-2 should be played from the current forward tee as the original hole played as a long Par 3 from there to the present green. With this routing, the scale of the place tends to be highlighted and the experience is much less disjointed.
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I made the trip up to Ocala today (yes, I'm still down for a long trip to see an obscure golf course) and played Ocala Golf Club. I was a big fan of the place--the course plays up, down, and, at one point in the back nine, over a large ridge that runs through the property. There was a little repetition on the par fives and the watery par threes, but there were some really phenomenal holes that stood out from the rest of the pack. In particular, I enjoyed the three hole stretch at 11 to 13, which consists of a short par three to a volcano green, a sweeping long par four that was 100% Deep South, and a short uphill par five with a devilish ridge-line green. I think Ocala would (sadly) bump the Heights off my top 10, and it was definitely worth the drive up for the day.
Bill McBride,
I've played three publics in the panhandle that I enjoyed: Camp Creek, Windswept Dunes, and Emerald Bay. Windswept Dunes had some interesting stuff, but I have a hard time remembering much of the course. Emerald Bay has typical housing course shlock, but the back nine is a pretty neat little hidden gem with a lot of variety. I especially liked the stretch down and back from the Bay on 15, 16, and 17. If you are in Destin, which is a bit starved for imaginative golf design, Emerald Bay is not a bad choice.
Camp Creek is a good course and always gets high marks from the raters (probably because the conditioning was/is excellent. But I think CC is a bit of a waste of a piece of property. The land there is absolutely dynamite, and a more talented architect likely could have come up with something much more inspiring. Granted, I played the course two times ten years ago, so I would be looking at it under a really different set of eyes now, but from what I remember it would struggle to get into my top ten. Mentally, I compare Camp Creek to something like Southern Dunes. A rater (or just your typical Florida golfer) might be wowed by Camp Creek's excellent maintenance, gorgeous clubhouse, and amazing setting and be put off be the houses, tiny clubhouse and Wal-Mart parking-lot entrance at SD. But, for my money, Southern Dunes has a lot more flair and inspiration in its design whereas Camp Creek seems a bit sterile. Southern Dunes gets my vote, but I get that many others might disagree.
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JNC,
I'm glad you played Ocala. I agree with you about the 2 par 3's with water. Although #14 has a great green to it. I thought the par 5's are really strong, especially #2, #4, and #13. Now due to technology they are all half par's except #2. What par 5's didn't you like?
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After you get by the consensus biggies at Streamsong and WW, I think Juliette Falls fits in nicely with the rest. I like the par 3's and the par 4 eigth also comes to mind. The landscaping is nice - even the waterfall holes. There is enough elevation change to keep things interesting. If you like the dormant brown Bermuda winter look this is the place to go. John Sanford, the architect, seems to have been in Egypt doing resorts and also the far east. And, interestingly, collaborated with Nicklaus on Ferry Point.
John is an ex Nicklaus guy who has been out on his own for quite a long time. He was brought in to help out at Ferry Point because of his experience with landfill projects -- one of his bigger deals was the Granite Links course in Boston, which was created as part of the Big Dig tunnel project.
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JNC,
I'm glad you played Ocala. I agree with you about the 2 par 3's with water. Although #14 has a great green to it. I thought the par 5's are really strong, especially #2, #4, and #13. Now due to technology they are all half par's except #2. What par 5's didn't you like?
I did not dislike any of the par fives specifically. I enjoyed each of the ones you listed, especially the uphill ones at 2 and 13. See my first post again, where I highlight the 13th green as being a favorite moment of the course. I also enjoyed 17 individually, which has a wicked green. My problem with the fives is not their individual merits but their collective lack of variety. 4, 7, and 17 are all downhill straightaway holes within the same 30-yard range. 13 is a totally different look than those three, but it should play about the same distance because it is uphill not downhill. The only one that plays longer is 2, which runs on the same plane as 4, 7, and 17 but is uphill rather than downhill. I would have liked to see a little more variety in distance and in look, especially with 5 par fives rather than the usual 4.
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I made the trip up to Ocala today (yes, I'm still down for a long trip to see an obscure golf course) and played Ocala Golf Club. I was a big fan of the place--the course plays up, down, and, at one point in the back nine, over a large ridge that runs through the property. There was a little repetition on the par fives and the watery par threes, but there were some really phenomenal holes that stood out from the rest of the pack. In particular, I enjoyed the three hole stretch at 11 to 13, which consists of a short par three to a volcano green, a sweeping long par four that was 100% Deep South, and a short uphill par five with a devilish ridge-line green. I think Ocala would (sadly) bump the Heights off my top 10, and it was definitely worth the drive up for the day.
Bill McBride,
I've played three publics in the panhandle that I enjoyed: Camp Creek, Windswept Dunes, and Emerald Bay. Windswept Dunes had some interesting stuff, but I have a hard time remembering much of the course. Emerald Bay has typical housing course shlock, but the back nine is a pretty neat little hidden gem with a lot of variety. I especially liked the stretch down and back from the Bay on 15, 16, and 17. If you are in Destin, which is a bit starved for imaginative golf design, Emerald Bay is not a bad choice.
Camp Creek is a good course and always gets high marks from the raters (probably because the conditioning was/is excellent. But I think CC is a bit of a waste of a piece of property. The land there is absolutely dynamite, and a more talented architect likely could have come up with something much more inspiring. Granted, I played the course two times ten years ago, so I would be looking at it under a really different set of eyes now, but from what I remember it would struggle to get into my top ten. Mentally, I compare Camp Creek to something like Southern Dunes. A rater (or just your typical Florida golfer) might be wowed by Camp Creek's excellent maintenance, gorgeous clubhouse, and amazing setting and be put off be the houses, tiny clubhouse and Wal-Mart parking-lot entrance at SD. But, for my money, Southern Dunes has a lot more flair and inspiration in its design whereas Camp Creek seems a bit sterile. Southern Dunes gets my vote, but I get that many others might disagree.
I agree with all those observations. Windswept Dunes has some good individual holes but the whole is a mess because of the residential nature and a several hundred yard cart ride between every green and tee. Sadly not many homes had been built when I played there on New Years Day a few years ago.
The Eglin courses probably would have been more appealing to you. There are also the Jones brothers' courses at Sandestin, Rees with Burnt Pine and Robert with the Raven, which I preferred. That's the only place where they built side by side courses.
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JNC...glad to hear you enjoyed the course I grew up playing, and still enjoy 2-3 days a week. In fact, I was there yesterday as well.
I agree with your assessment, the use of the ridge that runs the entire width of the property is one of my favorite things about the course and creates some of its best holes. If you're ever up for the drive again, look me up!
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Any of you guys ever play Sara Bay in Sarasota? Donald Ross course retored by Brian Silva. I'm playing in an event there next Monday. Kind of curious to check it out since I've never heard of it before.
Bill, this is a total thread-jack since we are talking about public courses here. But I recently played Sara Bay for the first time and posted these comments: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60545.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60545.0.html) Shoot me a PM if you are in Sarasota for an extended period of time.
Jon, not a thread-jack. Just a lazy way to get a quick idea of what I might expect at Sara Bay! :)
I really liked it a lot. Nothing fancy, just a fun, straightforward Ross course with excellent greens. A refreshing change from the typical Florida course. Your review was spot on.
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I think Park Ridge (Case) in Lake Worth is worth a visit:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28386.0.html
Agreed. You hit all sorts of shots there. I think the 8th hole is one of the best in Florida.
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Hyde Park- favorite layout in florida, would like to have seen it before they removed most fairway bunkers in the 50s for pace of play purposes
Palatka- fun quirky little course
grand cypress new
University of Florida
Ocala National
Tpc sawgrass- stadium
Tpc sawgrass- valley
brooksville cc- fun course but those greens and my putter do not agree ;D
Amelia island- oak marsh- more or less florida's harbour town.
Amelia national- a fazio most won't like but it has grown on me the more I play, and the greens are some of the most undulating and smoothest in town.
honorable mention- lake jovita north, eagle creek golf club orlando, pga golf club dye, ponte vedra lagoon( never played ocean)
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As context: My father (32 index) and I (11.2) played Southern Dunes and Celebration last week. We've played them along with Championsgate, Copperhead, and the Disney courses the last few years, including the Dye course that was plowed under a few years back. We've also attended Arnold's tournament at Bay Hill for 15+/- years. That's the extent of my Florida course on-site knowledge.
The Southern Dunes greens were not in as good shape as previous years, but the course was just as much fun for both of us as in the past. I play from one set down from the back tees and Dad (94) plays the most forward set of tees so I get to see how the course plays from a wide difference in yardage. What I think is good about Smyer's design is that Dad has a challenge from his forward tees and not just wide open flat fairway for miles.
The Jones haters will have a problem with this, but Celebration is also a fun course for both of us with bunkers on first and second shots often in the middle of the fairways so that all group of golfers need to make decisions and not just hit as far as possible down the center. The two 9-hole loops in alternate directions certainly bring the Florida wind into play. Whether you give Jr most of the credit or Sr because "I taught them everything they know" I would recommend Celebration just below Southern Dunes for double digit handicaps playing from different tees.
Anthony
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We took a trip to Ocala/Brooksville area last year. Played WW and Black Diamond which were good. We were really surprised and actually moved an entire day back to Juliette Falls. Regret missing out on Ocala... here it is a hidden gem as well.
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1. Streamsong Blue
2. Streamsong Red
3. TPC Sawgrass Stadium
4. Doral Blue
5. TPC Sawgrass Valleys
6. Orange County National Panther Lake
7. Orange County National Crooked Cat
Edit: 7a. Bay Hill (not sure that's really public)
8. Victoria Hills
9. Grand Cypress New
10. World Woods Pine Barrens
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Played Palatka GC yest. All I can say is wow what a fun track. It has many, many strong holes. It shows one what can be accomplished with 100 acres of land.
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Where is the love for Orange County National & Southern Dunes??
Hit both up in a recent swing it was been a long time since I had been to Southern Dunes. The recent greens redo appears to have gone very well. The housing is abundant but it never felt obtrusive as it does at some places. The strategy is there and the conditions were great. So why no love?
As for OCN - for the most part there are some good holes that make you think (such as Panther Lake #5 w/ tight driving area and small green perched near some trouble & #7 a risk reward par 5 that requires a heroic 2ns shot to get on). The H2O usage wasn't over done and the grrens have some good movement.
While these are waay behind Streamsong, Grand national new & World Woods, just wondering why they get to love here?
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Here is my list. I have not yet played Streamsong, however.
The Dye Preserve
Mission Inn El Campeon
PGA National - Championship Course
Waldorf Astoria
Grand Cypress New
PGA National - Palmer
Championsgate - International
Championsgate - National
Mission Inn - Las Colinas
My golfing in Florida is limited to a handful of trips, but the courses in the top 5 were worth the trip while those below it were just average in general. Several others are on my short list, including Streamsong, Mountain Lake, and CC of Orlando, to name a few.
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I have only played about 10 courses in Florida so far. The ones I liked the best are Dunedin GC and the renovated Fort Myers CC. I'll be playing the Gasparilla Inn course in March and I am sure that will make my best in Florida as well.
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My top FL public tracks of preference
Palatka
Ocala GC
World Woods both
Ft Myers
Juliette falls
Naples grade
Tiberon
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To the OP
Very glad to see Bellview Biltmore on your list. My father used to play there and introduced me to it. Recent bunker renovation has really turned it into a hidden gem in my mind.
Here's mine in no particular order:
Innisbrook Copperhead
Pine Barron's
Bellview Biltmore
Dunedin Golf Club-nice Donald Ross and a very good test.
Fiddlers Creek- 17 good holes until you get to 18. Greens are a little flat.
Streamsong Blue
Rolling Oaks
Disney Magnolia
Disney Palm
Bardmoor