Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Joe Bausch on February 19, 2015, 12:37:15 PM
-
Save the date: Saturday, March 21st for another "Barn Fest" discussing all aspects of golf, but particularly focusing on architecture.
Tentative speakers include Lester George, Jim Nagle, Ron Prichard, Ian Larson, and Mark Chalfant.
A game of Philly Golf Jeopardy will take place as well. This will be outstanding.
Plus a few other surprises are likely as well. Tentatively will host at my school (Villanova) early that afternoon.
Further details to follow on this thread.
-
Fantastic! Should be a great time Joe! ;D
-
How did you drag Lester north of the line? (Mason-Dixon that is!)
-
I wonder if we will be able to see the ground and perhaps get a morning 18 in first?? :)
-
How did you drag Lester north of the line? (Mason-Dixon that is!)
I told him there was food. ;D
-
This sounds like a great way to start my golf year.
-
This sounds like a great way to start my golf year.
Looking forward to seeing you Shi$.
-
I'd be interested attending this if possible.
-
Sounds like a blast. Count me in!
-
Bumping this so folks can get it on their calendars. I understand even non-GCAers and folks from New Jersey are welcome to attend if you can imagine that! Details to follow whenever Bausch figures them out.
-
Can it be called 'barnfest' if it's not being held at Tom P's barn?
I'm in...though wondering what the adult beverage policy will be if held at Villanova.
-
Ok, details are as follows:
The afternoon of the 21st March at Villanova will begin at 1 PM, and lunch will be provided (more than likely catered by my wife).
There will be four presentations, each 30 min max in length and leaving time for questions. The speakers and their topics are as follows:
Ian Larson: the restoration of Culver Academy (Indiana) and sustainable golf in combination with GPS mapping.
Ron Prichard: compare and contrast early vs late Ross designs, and proper bunker construction
Jim Nagle: what makes a good golf hole, using examples from six courses he's been involved with over the years (CC of York, Lebanon Valley, Concord, Bedford Springs, Tavistock, and Northampton) that somewhat fly under the radar.
Lester George: a case study on pace of play using the Independence Golf Club.
This is a very interesting (sorry Peter P!) line-up of presentations.
I anticipate the official proceedings winding down late afternoon, then those that are interested can join me for further discussion and some libation of choice at Susanna Foo's just down the street in Radnor.
Let me know on this thread or by an e-mail if you will be attending. There will be a modest fee to cover lunch expenses.
Joe
-
Can it be called 'barnfest' if it's not being held at Tom P's barn?
I'm in...though wondering what the adult beverage policy will be if held at Villanova.
I anticipate this gathering to be much larger than those hosted at the barn, hence the specific venue able to accommodate up to 100.
Adult beverages to follow afterwards down the street (see below).
Joe
-----------------
-
Vote for a podcast here...
WW
-
Vote for a podcast here...
WW
+1
-
I will host at least 6 players the following day Sunday at my club St Davids Golf Club. SDGC is a 1927 Donald Ross Course with what I calll a RestoMod by Ron Prichard, it has changed a good amount (5 holes significantly changed) since it opened but Ron's work is in keeping with Ross's style.
Preference will be given to speakers and people coming from out of town. I may be able to accommodate more people.
-
Thanks for the offer for golf at St. Davids, Mike. That will be a nice addition for folks traveling from out of town.
A very nice place to stay Saturday night for those staying overnight is the Villanova Conference Center. Fellow GCAer Tim Martin recommends it.
http://www.acc-villanovaconferencecenter.com/
-
Looks like a killer lineup Joe, great work.
-
Joe,
I wish I could make it (although there is an outside chance, as I may have some upcoming work in Philly). If not, a podcast of the event would be great.
p.s. how's the GMGC book coming?
David
-
Joe,
I wish I could make it (although there is an outside chance, as I may have some upcoming work in Philly). If not, a podcast of the event would be great.
p.s. how's the GMGC book coming?
David
That would be nice if you can make it, David.
Good reminder about the book. I need to speak with the author about something else and will ask how it is coming along.
-
I'm happy to announce that Mark Chalfant will also be presenting, a short talk an Emmet bunkering and some of his great NLE holes.
-
Joe, I wish I could attend but I will be at Golf House in Far Hills for my annual Rules of Golf Workshop. All the best and it sounds like it is going to be a great gathering.
-
In
-
Joe, I wish I could attend but I will be at Golf House in Far Hills for my annual Rules of Golf Workshop. All the best and it sounds like it is going to be a great gathering.
>:(
-
In
Good.
We're up to about 22 people now.
-
Joe,
Can we get the USGA to reschedule the Rules Workshop so that Ed and Chris can attend? Egads, how many rules have changed from last year that they need another workshop? ::)
Probably not, huh?
-
Since one of the featured speakers has threatened to kill me as recently as last Sunday I think I will stay in the relative safety of Golf House. This entire event could degrade into a shoutin, stabbin North Philly weekend?
I am certain you guys will have a good time and please don't let Cirba turn it into a Hillary fundraiser!
Joe I would love to see the questions you have made up for the game show part of the event. Have a great time guys.
ed
-
Ed,
If we didn't have exciting, passionate speakers no one would attend the event. What's a little death threat when the future of golf course architecture is at stake?
Wish you could attend...I'll discuss with Joe what would be involved in creating a podcast.
-
Understood Mike, besides with the old FBI training I like my odds??
I am certain you guys/girls will have a great informative time, the line up looks great. I do want to pick Rons mind sometime about the work at AGC. If there are any handouts please set aside one for Chris and I.
-
Joseph will the room be power point presentation ready?
-
Joseph will the room be power point presentation ready?
Yes.
And if you provide my your PP file, my laptop is equipped to be able to use the SmartPodium functionality in the room, which allows you to write on the screen.
-
Updated topic for Mark Chalfant's talk:
Hazardous Materials: Devereux Emmet's Bold Bunkering and Greens
-
Count me in.
Malcolm McK is tied up, so I will have to represent the entire Springdale contingent on my own.
-
Count me in.
Malcolm McK is tied up, so I will have to represent the entire Springdale contingent on my own.
Looking forward to seeing you again, Bill.
-
Is there going to be a presentation on "the greatest game ever played"? ;D ;)
-
Is there going to be a presentation on "the greatest game ever played"? ;D ;)
Might be a Double Jeopardy topic!
-
Update: The Lurker will be at the gathering on the 21st.
-
Update: The Lurker will be at the gathering on the 21st.
You're gonna need a bigger room.
-
We can't wait! :)
-
Thanks for the offer for golf at St. Davids, Mike. That will be a nice addition for folks traveling from out of town.
A very nice place to stay Saturday night for those staying overnight is the Villanova Conference Center. Fellow GCAer Tim Martin recommends it.
http://www.acc-villanovaconferencecenter.com/
Yeah - it's a really nice place. I've attended a couple of work-related conferences there, and it's A-OK :)
-
Joe,
I wish I could be there to join the group. Instead I will be at Newark Airport picking up my daughter who is on spring break from the University of Edinburgh.
My best to all of my friends in Phiily. Will attend the next! Say Hi to the "lurker" for me.
I missed the lack of a "cabin fever" outing also this year.
Malcolm
-
Malcolm, sorry you can't make it.
Looks like currently only 2 people from New Jersey are attending (Bill Crane and MW). :o
-
Love to have you Barry. And now fellow Texan Kelly Blake Moran will have someone to talk to. :)
Lunch starts at 1. Tentatively talks start at 2. Done by 5. All festivities in Mendel Hall, room 213.
-
Is Mendel 213 the same room we had for Orgo 2??
Mark
-
Is Mendel 213 the same room we had for Orgo 2??
Mark
Yep. You can sit in the same chair if you wish. ;)
-
Note: author of the Merion book Jeff Silverman is probably going to be in attendance. If you've purchased a copy of the book and wish to have it signed by him, bring it along!
Or if you don't have the book, stop at the Merion pro shop beforehand!
-
Note: author of the Merion book Jeff Silverman is probably going to be in attendance. If you've purchased a copy of the book and wish to have it signed by him, bring it along!
Or if you don't have the book, stop at the Merion pro shop beforehand!
dammit I have the book and would love to get it signed, can he drive up to Far Hills?
-
Note: author of the Merion book Jeff Silverman is probably going to be in attendance. If you've purchased a copy of the book and wish to have it signed by him, bring it along!
Or if you don't have the book, stop at the Merion pro shop beforehand!
dammit I have the book and would love to get it signed, can he drive up to Far Hills?
Drop it off to me beforehand, Ed. Either that morning or some other day this week.
-
Thanks Joe, would you please email me your address?
erb@snydermoore.com
i will overnight it
-
An updated title to Jim Nagle's presentation:
The Three Elements of a Good Golf Course - Strategy, Naturalness and Variety and where they can be found on Hidden Gems
-
To the attendees: if you wish a copy of the 3rd and final rounds of the 2013 US Open at Merion, bring along a portable drive with at least 120 GB of space on it. I have HD versions of those days and can give you copies. It's pretty nifty.
-
Some have inquired about the golf opp at St. Davids on Sunday: it will be at 10 am. Walking and carrying is allowed and will be 60 bucks. Cartballing it an extra 25, or a caddy an extra 60.
-
My bride is taking Friday off to prepare some good food for Saturday. The London Broils are marinating now and will serve to make the roast beef sliders.
Here is the tentative menu:
roast beef sandwiches (sliders, make your own)
grilled chicken sandwiches (sliders)
Asian style coleslaw
Roasted peppers
Caramelized onions
Bruschetta or focaccia with assorted spreads (flavored hummus)
Cheese straws
Brownies or cake-maybe both
Cookies
And the cost will be very small. Probably not even 10 bucks. And everything is homemade.
-
Diane is a saint!!
-
I'm getting hungry already and to keep this post relevant to architecture, I'd say the menu looks varied but balanced, with enough challenge to keep everyone on their toes. I'm sure some will only stay for nine, but those who go back for the full eighteen (double courses) will have their hands (and bellies) full!
-
I'll be the fella in the food coma at the back of the class dreaming of bunkers and sandwiches and whatnot.
-
I'll be the fella in the food coma at the back of the class dreaming of bunkers and sandwiches and whatnot.
and immovable obstructions.
-
List of attendees:
Organizer/Cat herder:
Me
Presenters:
1. Mark Chalfant
2. Ian Larson
3. Jim Nagle (and better half attending, too!)
4. Ron Prichard
5. Lester George
Listeners. ;)
1. The Lurker (Tom P.)
2/3. Mike Cirba (and his better half)
4. Matt Frey
5. Mark McKeever
6. John $himony
7/8. Dan Herrmann (and his better half)
9. Mike Trenham
10. Pete Trenham
11. KBM
12. Ari Flaisher
13. Richie H. (just wait till you meet Richie; a real treasure)
14. Chris Mavros
15. Mike Blake
16. Joe Logan
17. Matt Ward
18. Chris Grupp (buddy of mine)
19. Mayday Malone (nobody's buddy)
20. Bill Crane
21. Tim C.
22. Nate O.
23. E. Rodriguez
24. Jeff B.
25. Jeff Silverman
26. George S. (buddy of KBM)
27. Wayne M.
28. Barry Samuels
29. Positively maybe is architect Ed Shearon (I've never met Ed in person and I'm hopeful he can make it).
30. Big John Burnes
31. John Cavanaugh
-
Diane is a saint!!
Maybe you should bring your way better half along. :)
-
Wow , what a lineup . I'm so sorry that I will be out of town . Enjoy !
-
Lost voice on Tuesday and Wednesday. Hoping it comes together for Saturday. Will also be joined by the much better half of the Nagle clan.
-
Lost voice on Tuesday and Wednesday. Hoping it comes together for Saturday. Will also be joined by the much better half of the Nagle clan.
The lecture hall is fairly small and has good acoustics so you'll be fine, Jim!
-
Joe,
Recommend places to park? Is that lot on 320 behind Mendel available, without the risk of being ticketed for no VU parking sticker?
-
Joe,
Recommend places to park? Is that lot on 320 behind Mendel available, without the risk of being ticketed for no VU parking sticker?
That's the lot. Accessible right off of 320. Gate is in open position all the time now. I'll post a map later.
-
Have a great time, wish I could make it to hear Mark's poetic talk on Dev...RHE
-
Have a great time, wish I could make it to hear Mark's poetic talk on Dev...RHE
I'm very much interested in Mark's presentation, and he is leading off the afternoon!
Note: updated attendee list above.
-
Joe -
Coming in off of Rt. 30, what is the easiest way to find Mendel Hall and the parking area?
Thanks
-
I'm really looking forward to tomorrow. Great Speaker and Guest list and only find myself wishing some others were able to attend. They know who they are.
-
Joe -
Coming in off of Rt. 30, what is the easiest way to find Mendel Hall and the parking area?
Thanks
Coming from the westerly direction on Lancaster Ave (Rt 30), make a left on Rt 320 (also called Spring Mill Road). Then you are really close. Head up 320 and just past the crest of the hill is a main entrance to the inner campus, which is the entrance you DO NOT WANT! You want the next entrance, which is maybe 500 yards farther down the hill on the right, not too far past the Hilldale road on the left.
This entrance has some gates, which are set permanently open. Park right in that lot, and find Mendel room 213 in that big building right next to the lot. Below is a map of that part of campus.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/misc/parking_map.jpg)
-
This sounds like it's going to be a great time, with the presentation and food line ups looking really good. I'm looking forward to it and will see everyone tomorrow.
-
This sounds like it's going to be a great time, with the presentation and food line ups looking really good. I'm looking forward to it and will see everyone tomorrow.
This event is going to kick arse.
I was expecting ... Ahhh, nevermind.
Roads are clear already, I'm anxious to fire up the festivities tomorrow!
-
Ok folks...even if you aren't on the guest list...get your arse to Villanova. There's snow on the ground...what else you gonna do?
-
What a day. Almost 50 people in attendance.
I need some rest. Grin.
Perhaps my friend Mike Cirba will summarize the five presentations, which were each enjoyable and very different.
-
Really great event Joe. Thanks for setting it up.
-
It was fantastic. Thank you!
-
Perhaps my friend Mike Cirba will summarize the five presentations, which were each enjoyable and very different.
I can give it a shot from memory.
First, it was really great to see everyone after a long winter and I knew I was in the grand company of fellow golf geeks when Ian Larson showed the first "After" picture of the restored 1st hole at Culver Academy and the room was filled the something that sounded strangely like mass ecstatic moaning. Egads.
A big thank you and shout out to the lovely ladies in attendance who probably haven't seen their men quite this excited in...oh, never mind. Diane brought some terrific food and while I guess my estimate of bringing SIX large bottles of wine was a bit overstated for the afternoon crowd, at least no one died of thirst, although tee-totaling Mayday reportedly nearly brought himself to the point of dehydration due to a stomach bug. Thankfully, he missed some of the good-natured Flynn bashing that ensued late in the day.
After a bit of a late start with general chaos of hellos and introductions, Ian Larson took the podium. Ian told me prior he was nervous to present but you'd never know it as his presentation was polished, insightful, and enthusiastic, despite nagging technical problems with the projector that required an unanticipated 10 minute interruption to correct.
Ian, who recently started his own design and construction company called "Surface Golf" gave us an idea of his street creds and told us excitedly about his west-coast pilgrimage to learn at the feet of the Captain, George Thomas, with gigs at Riviera and LACC. Ian has done construction and grow-in work for courses and architects great and small and today's presentation was focused in on one Culver Academy, a nine-hole course by Langford and Moreau in the middle of Indiana.
Ian shared that he was less than enthusiastic about the grow-in assignment from Bobby Weed until he started researching the history of the course, originally built in the 1920s for the Culver Military Academy. During lean times most of the entire course was left overgrown and it wasn't long before all the bold and steep bunkers were fully overgrown and disappeared from play.
Weed's restoration was indeed a "historic restoration" where even the top-shot bunkers and those mostly only in play for higher handicappers were brought back from the grave. While the "Before" pictures showed the promises of the unusually rolling landforms for that part of the country, the "After pics" provided a compelling sense of what has been recaptured.
Along with the bunkers, the greens were extended out to the edge of their pads and because of the significant undulations are kept at about an 8 at most on a Stiimp, with no intention to ever be cut shorter. Ian shared how two men (Ken and Bob?) were essentially responsible for all upkeep and that the club does not presently have a Superintendent. As such, the course is kept a bit shaggy and...to the better.
Because of the remote nature of the course as well as the fact it does not need to be a revenue stream, Ian shared almost transcendentally how he spent many an evening out on the beautiful property by himself, watching the sun set across the Indiana plains, thankful for a job where he could be just "out there", doing what he clearly loves.
-
Next up was self-avowed architectural geek Mark Chalfant, who founded the "Devereux Emmet Society" and who is a student of Architecture of all types.
Like Ian, Mark shared that he was nervous but his professorial style belied any indication of such. Armed with reams of notes and terrific aerials, his presentation focused on some of the key traits of Emmet, which included wide variety of hole lengths, the tendency towards development of "half-par" holes better suited to match-play mentality, a penchant for courses that finished with a short par four followed by a short par three finale, a keen eye for how to effectively use landforms, no reluctance to introduce blind shots where the land dictated, and perhaps most engagingly, the creation of bunkers in every size, shape, depth, and form imaginable.
That later point was brought into focus through aerial photos of a number of Emmet's courses that Mark felt were particularly well preserved and/or restored. Mark focused primarily on Emmet's courses in and around upstate NY and Long Island, including Macgregor Links, Schuyler Meadows, St. George's and Huntingdon, the latter two having been restored effectively in recent years by Gil Hanse and Ian Andrew, respectively, though the efforts of members who saw the potential of what had been originally built.
Indeed, the overhead of Huntingdon, where GCA-er Robert Emmons has helped lead a wonderful resurgence in that course through tree removal, bunker recapture, and green expansion, looked to be something you'd see on "Mysteries of Ancient Astronauts", as it seemed to be some hieroglyphic conversation with an aerial being. Having played that course a few years back it was particularly good to see what's been accomplished.
At one point Mark pointed out his own "obsessive" personality about the topic of golf course architecture, which gathered more sympathetic head-nodding agreement in the room than a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Mark's final slide was a very grainy photo of what had been one of Emmet's best courses, Pomonok in Queens, NY, now sadly under concrete. As Mark described what we were supposed to be looking at of the hazy aerial, it occurred to me that if someone walked in off the street their first thought would be that we were all examining the Shroud of Turin.
Mark made a strong case for the fact that Emmet is often overlooked as one of the very best, and very earliest, American architects.
-
Next on the dais was Jim Nagle, of "Forse Design Incorporated", who is one of our locals guys made good, hailing from nearby Lancaster County. Accompanied by his lovely wife Meghan, Jim seemed very excited to join us for the day and his presentation was concise and focused. Jim and Ron Forse have created a number of new designs in PA and WV but have gained prominence in recent decades through restorative work of old classic architects.
Jim began by telling us how he first got into the business through a chance meeting with Pete Dye and worked in Colorado with Perry and other family members. It made me wonder if this most recent renaissance of golf course architecture would have even been possible if not for the influence of Pete Dye, who both inspired and directly trained so many of the modern practitioners of the craft.
Jim's theme focused on the three elements of great architecture from his perspective; 1) Strategy, 2) Variety, and 3) Naturalness and then proceeded to show us examples where all three components were on exhibit. Rather than use easy examples of famous courses such as Lancaster and Pine Tree where Forse/Nagle have done stellar and well-received work, Jim sought to use examples from some of their lesser known courses such as Alex Findlay's Lebanon CC and Tavistock CC, the latter of which he said stood out to him as perhaps the best of Findlay's remaining work due to the superior bold internal green undulations. Other courses he cited included William Flynn's little known Concord CC, where some unfortunate changes over the years are now being rolled back through an aggressive restoration effort.
Jim provided a terrific example of strategy by showing an overhead of the 3rd hole at Newport (RI) CC, indicating how Tillinghast's bunkering scheme provided clearly differing options for three levels of players. Continuing on the theme of strategy, Jim couldn't help but provide a few examples of his much loved Lancaster, where the removal of an interfering tree on the 6th hole (par three) suddenly brought a bold tee shot to the back left corner into play, challenging the creek that borders along that edge. Similarly, he displayed how an old recently discovered drawing by William Flynn of the 3rd hole translated into before and after photos that showed a tree impinged, one-dimensional hole prior contrasted with a widened, multi-route with accompanying bunker challenges after, setting up a steeply uphill approach over a 'great hazard" and skyline green.
Jim talked a lot about "scale" and how the size of certain properties dictated what size golf features needed to be created to be in harmony with the surrounding terrain. Citing work at Lebanon (a MUCH underappreciated central PA course with a fairly incredible back nine), Jim showed thematically how man-made features could be created that were sized appropriately yet retained a sense of naturalness with the surrounding countryside.
Jim and Ron's work at Lancaster will get world-wide attention this summer in the US Women's Open and it couldn't be more richly deserving. I think folks will be amazed at how good that William Flynn golf course is, and it certainly exhibits all of the components of greatness Jim mentioned in his exceptional presentation.
-
Decompression Sunday. :)
Ian's presentation of the before and after at Culver Academy was wonderful. I gotta get there next time I'm back in the state from my youth.
-
The comeback story of the day was one Lester George, who had been "scratched", Rollerball style from the tote-board by Chairman Bausch due to a broken tooth, yet steeled himself with a sip or two of Pinot Grigio and then fought his way to the podium, resplendent in an ASGCA plaid jacket.
We were all the better educated for his efforts!
Lester's presentation focused on something near and dear to all of us, the future of golf. Evidently the USGA is becoming somewhat convinced that all of their "grow the game" initiatives will be for naught if they can't do something to reduce the pace of play and I believe they're right. I can't tell you the number of times I've thought during a 5+ hour round of golf, "if anything ever made me quit the game, this would be it."
Lester's case study concerned Independence Golf Club in Midlothian VA, a public course built in 2001 and designed by Tom Fazio whose charge was to provide Virginia with a US Open capable course. The course was also to be the home of the Virginia Golf Association and due to conflicting goals and large capital debt ten years after inception the course was struggling and new ownership took over. I should mention that the property is quite large, also contains a par three course, a vast training center, and outbuildings for Corporate and retail functions.
The new owner came at things with a vastly different approach. Knowing what he was asking was likely to be controversial, he explained to Lester up-front that he wanted to significantly reduce the time it took to play a round of golf and pretty much provided Lester free reign (and about 1.3 million) to do what he saw fit towards that goal. The owner is also doing a number of novel things to get folks to the facility and particularly is looking to create family-friendly activities such as concerts, pizza restaurants, fitness centers, use of the grounds for jogging trails, 6 and 9 hole rounds, etc., as a way to have a recreational center that just also happens to have a golf course.
The golf course had a significant amount of bunkers, many of them over 10 feet deep and many located far from putting surfaces, ensuring that the weaker players would be brutalized. Many of the greenside bunkers were front right. The grasses in the rough grew lush and deep and rarely were any bailout areas provided where the lesser player could navigate safely.
Lester described how through a combination of bunker removal, bunker reconstruction, re-grassing, widening of fairways, clearing of off-fairway areas, the creation of milder short game recovery areas, and some other touches the course was able to reduce rounds by over 45 minutes, from nearly 5 hours on average to 4 hours 5 minutes, measured by GPS in the carts. In addition to the financial impact of getting more people through the gates, overall less carts were needed, maintenance costs were reduced, the course rating actually improved, and things are looking rosier, with more changes to come.
I had an evil thought that in 50 years some internet geeks will find old aerials and set out to restore Independence, penal bunkers and all, to "Fazio's original design intent". Indeed, I think we sometimes here get so caught up in the "bunker porn" view of historical courses that we sometimes forget the very real economical decisions that club's and courses have made over time, often for reasons we can only speculate about decades later.
I do know that the other architects in attendance certainly were given food for thought in terms of their own designs and while some may view these types of changes negatively as reducing golf course challenge, Lester provided plenty of evidence that the course's design intent remained intact while the course is now much more navigable for the average player.
I personally think "sustainability" is the watchword for 21st century golf so listening to Lester's presentation was refreshing in approach and educational in substance.
-
A BIG thank you for hosting us all and to the speakers for presenting. What a tremendous day!
I filmed the presentations and am reviewing them now. Once they are all edited, I will upload them to YouTube and share the URLs on this thread.
-
Due to the enthusiasm of the presenters, the detailed questions, and the general spirit of community and camaraderie, the event was running late and it was after 5pm when our final speaker Ron Prichard took the podium.
Ron certainly needs no introduction to most of us who have been graced with knowing him as an architect and friend, but for those who don't know him, let's just say that Ron is a character. A man educated in and highly appreciative of all art forms, with a rapier and biting wit mixed with a gentle compassion, Ron is truly one of a kind.
Ron speaks without notes with a grace and ease that lets his audience know up front that this is going to be a two-way interactive dialogue, not a soliloquy, and he was assisted by a young associate named Tyler (last name I regrettably missed) who has been working with Ron for the past few years.
Ron had hoped to enchant us with a six-minute clip of Beethoven to set the appropriate mood, but in the spirit of moving the program along nixed that idea. Instead, he tied the idea of studying the classics as worthy of artistic emulation into a wide-ranging program that loosely touched on everything from Donald Ross's design progression and evolving styles to grammatically correct use of language to accurately describe golf course features (i.e. identifying the difference between what makes up a "green" versus a "putting surface"), to recounting how he needled Rees Jones to describe what exactly he meant by "Shot Value", to working with Desmond Muirhead in an attempt to create a replica of St. Andrews Old Course in Japan, to doing hand drawn topographical maps of Pinehurst #2 before realizing that technology already existed to do it much easier with lasers.
In essence, Ron provided us with a history lesson of golf course architecture across the past five decades (while Ron claims facetiously to be only 60 years old) while showing how the techniques have changed (as well as the game) but that the classical essence of great architecture remained the same. Ron provided us with what he felt was the best definition of "Classic", as follows:
Something that serves as a model since its elements are so poised as to represent for all time the miraculous illusion of perfection."
Ron spoke with sadness about agronomic changes and mowing techniques that have forced his hand to reduce green slope on some greens where he's worked (Mountain Ridge) and his presentation turned into a detailed discussion between Ron, and Jim Nagle, and Lester George, as well as Tom Paul that could have gone on all night concerning interpretations of Donald Ross's field drawings, their complexity, versus simpler line drawings done by William Flynn, the Gordons, and others..
Seeing the hour, Ron graciously wrapped up and some of the group convened to a nearby restaurant for sushi and more golf talk.
-
As each video will take some time to edit, save and upload, I will be posting them one at a time this week.
Mark Chalfant's presentation on Devereux Emmet's Bold Bunkering and Greens is now live on YouTube. You can view it by clicking here (https://youtu.be/zIXMF2eXlYk) or visiting the link below. Enjoy!
youtu.be/zIXMF2eXlYk (https://youtu.be/zIXMF2eXlYk)
-
Matt deserves a big thanks for being the videographer!
-
Thanks to Joe for organizing and hosting. And for the post-event social at Susanna Foo.
Thanks to Ian, Mark, Jim, Lester, & Ron for presenting.
Thanks to Matt for videoing.
Nice to see some old faces and meet some new ones.
-
I apologize for not finding you Saturday and introducing myself. But you probably saw that I was a bit occupied herding all the cats. :-)
Glad you hit it off with Mayday. Now he officially has one buddy. ;)
When you are back in the area, yell, and we'll go play some classic course. Maybe even Mayday's!
-
Next video to be available is Jim Nagle's presentation. Maybe by later today or tonight!
-
This was a lot of fun to attend and next time I will need to work on my time management so I'm able to stay for the entirety. It was great to finally meet a lot of you in person and the presentations that I was able to stay for were excellent. I'm already looking forward to the next gathering and am thankful I'll be able to watch the presentations I missed online.
Thanks again to everyone involved in making this a great time.
-
Joe
Great job. Barry is just grateful I did not throw up in his lap.
-
Joe
Great job. Barry is just grateful I did not throw up in his lap.
That trash can did not smell good Sunday morning.
Good work by you!
;)
-
Many thanks to all that made for such a memorable SuperNova GCA day...even if the Wildkittens did make a meek exit from the tourney.
Special kudos to maestro Joe and Lady Di, who nailed the vittles and refreshments department!
To Matt , who captured the day for all to see AND even survived my spirited rant concerning the game's continued apathy toward better supporting caddie golf. ;D
The speakers were an engaging group, providing insights from ALL angles. When you hear references to Van Gogh and then to the designer of the Union League, by two different GCA presenters on the same afternoon, you KNOW fertile minds are at work!
This Philly gathering offered yet another wonderful example of how much Ran's GCA experiment generates so much more for our merry band BEYOND the sward.
Well done gang...a perfect first shot into a Swinging Spring!
Cheers,
Kris 8)
-
" Lesser known Concord CC", it's only been around 90 years. You Philly guys should be ashamed. But then again maybe the membership at Concord should be too for hiding our light under a basket, as the Bible says. Super is killing himself trying to do good. Greg is making inroads and the project returning hole five to Flynns plans is almost done. Now if a few of us can convince the board to put back the Hells Half Acre Tilly removed we will be well on our way.
If any of you guys want to see this unknown course please let me know. It's not far from the famous Clayton Park track.
-
" Lesser known Concord CC", it's only been around 90 years. You Philly guys should be ashamed. But then again maybe the membership at Concord should be too for hiding our light under a basket, as the Bible says. Super is killing himself trying to do good. Greg is making inroads and the project returning hole five to Flynns plans is almost done. Now if a few of us can convince the board to put back the Hells Half Acre Tilly removed we will be well on our way.
If any of you guys want to see this unknown course please let me know. It's not far from the famous Clayton Park track.
Let's do 27 soon, Ed!
-
Next up in the video series is Jim Nagle's presentation on the Three Elements of a Good Golf Course and Where to Find Them on Hidden Gems. You can view it by clicking here (https://youtu.be/Pm-JxSZ3_GM) or visiting the link below. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/Pm-JxSZ3_GM
-
That is really good, Matt. I hope many will take the time to view Jim's presentation.
-
Thank you very much for filming and posting these presentations, Matt & Joe. I haven't had the time to watch them yet, but I've bookmarked and will watch them when I have a chance. Great stuff and much appreciated!
-
" Lesser known Concord CC", it's only been around 90 years. You Philly guys should be ashamed. But then again maybe the membership at Concord should be too for hiding our light under a basket, as the Bible says. Super is killing himself trying to do good. Greg is making inroads and the project returning hole five to Flynns plans is almost done. Now if a few of us can convince the board to put back the Hells Half Acre Tilly removed we will be well on our way.
If any of you guys want to see this unknown course please let me know. It's not far from the famous Clayton Park track.
Tilly removed a HHA?!?! I saw the photo in one of the presentations, but why would it have been removed by AWT?
-
Ed,
Why do you believe that Tilly removed an HHA? The only day that I can put Tilly on site is 8/15/1936, during his PGA Course Consultation Tour.
He made several major recommendations including reducing the size of some overly large greens on 2, 4, 12, 13 & 14. A new green site for 10 & a new tee for 11. Many times he didn't list every recommendation made in his letters of this type, but he always listed the major changes. In my opinion removing an HHA would qualify as that.
Does the Club have a copy of his notes that he left behind that would indicate this? I've attached a copy of his letter below:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/1936.8.15_zpstzohtxtd.jpg) (http://s364.photobucket.com/user/PhiltheAuthor/media/1936.8.15_zpstzohtxtd.jpg.html)
-
Mike Cirba's synopsis and observations certainly demonstrate how we are so much better off with him back in the GCA community. Joe and the Philly gang really do raise the bar when it comes to walking the walk and giving meaning to the study of GCA while maintaining the spirit of sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm with the rest of us. Thanks all.
-
Great work Joe and thank you Matt for filming! I really enjoyed both videos. Mark Chalfant comment about Mr Emmet early courses being solid with average land really impresses me. I think that is a point that gets overlooked on GCA. I look forward to playing an Emmet course this summer.
-
Thanks, Ben.
Note to those keeping score at home: Mark's video is about 30 min in length, Jim's about 35 min. So find a comfy chair and watch!
P.S. Next year we'll have better audio in particular.
-
Ed,
Why do you believe that Tilly removed an HHA? The only day that I can put Tilly on site is 8/15/1936, during his PGA Course Consultation Tour.
He made several major recommendations including reducing the size of some overly large greens on 2, 4, 12, 13 & 14. A new green site for 10 & a new tee for 11. Many times he didn't list every recommendation made in his letters of this type, but he always listed the major changes. In my opinion removing an HHA would qualify as that.
Does the Club have a copy of his notes that he left behind that would indicate this? I've attached a copy of his letter below:
(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/PhiltheAuthor/1936.8.15_zpstzohtxtd.jpg) (http://s364.photobucket.com/user/PhiltheAuthor/media/1936.8.15_zpstzohtxtd.jpg.html)
While not written it is club lore that it was done verbally at the time of the inspection. There is nothing in the clubs minutes about any process of it happening internally. My guess is being pennywise and Flynnfoolish the grounds guy followed Tilly ideas and set out destroying Flynns work.
-
Ed
I've not followed this portion of the discussion but: were Tilly's recommendations based on the desire to preserve scarce economic resources during the depression or were they purely architectural? My recollection is that he was keeping afloat by advising clubs on how to reduce costs on the course.
-
Hello Cory,
I think you are spot on referencing the financial impact of maintaining a hazard that size. The club was in difficulty, as were many at that time, and filling that area in was probably cost effective.
As one of the guys leading the charge to have it reinstalled I am wearing my heart on my sleeve on this one. The pics of the original hole give us the guidelines and we can redo the 16th to make it fit. The problem is alot of folks think 16 is a great hole already and don't see the merits in the work.
So we shall see,
ed
-
Rory,
Tilly was giving architectural advice. If it enabled a cost savings via maintenance cost savings (e.g. - elimination of "duffer's headache" bunkers) more the better. But his advice was first and foremost architecturally based. Also, his services had to be requested through the PGA offices and the club desiring his visit had to provide details of what their specific needs were. This would enable him to maximize his scheduling of visits. There were many instances where he went to numerous courses in a single day.
-
Phil and Ed,
Thank you for the responses. Phil, your point is well taken. Ed, keep fighting the good fight. It will be worth it!
-
Next up in the video series is Lester George's presentation on a Pace of Play Case Study featuring his work at Independence Golf Club in Midlothian, Virginia. You can view it by clicking here (https://youtu.be/alZQQXetfFc) or visiting the link below. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/alZQQXetfFc
-
RJ Daley,
Thanks for the kind words. It was a pleasure trying to put together some thoughts on the day to share with those who were unable to attend.
What I fear is that someone will read my synopsis and then watch the related video, and see no reasonable connection between the two! :o To that I'd simply say that it was a long, long day jam-packed with architectural geek nutrients!
-
What I fear is that someone will read my synopsis and then watch the related video, and see no reasonable connection between the two! :o To that I'd simply say that it was a long, long day jam-packed with architectural geek nutrients!
I'd say your posts were pretty spot-on!
-
I haven't forgotten about the last two videos...it's been a hectic week; I hope to have Ian's and Ron's videos up sometime over the next few days.
-
The penultimate video is Ron Prichard's presentation on Early vs. Late Donald Ross Designs and Proper Bunker Construction. You can view it by clicking here (https://youtu.be/baqXG0gKziM) or visiting the link below. Enjoy!
I boosted the volume 500 percent, but it's still a little quiet...turn it up! Unfortunately, due to poor battery life, I lost about five minutes of Ron's presentation and the last several minutes are audio only, accompanied by his presentation slides. If I'm recording future events, I hope to have stronger batteries and a Bluetooth mic system!
https://youtu.be/baqXG0gKziM
Lastly, I hope to have Ian's video up in the next 24 hours or so.
-
Last, but certainly not least, is Ian Larson's presentation on the restoration of Culver (Indiana) Academies Golf Club. You can view it by clicking here (https://youtu.be/p_IHZ615ULg) or visiting the link below. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/p_IHZ615ULg
-
So readers do not have to scan the thread looking for the videos, the can all be found below by clicking on the appropriate name / play icon image.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/PGAmagAmbassador/1-larson.jpg) (https://youtu.be/p_IHZ615ULg) (https://s3.amazonaws.com/PGAmagAmbassador/2-chalfant.jpg) (https://youtu.be/zIXMF2eXlYk)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/PGAmagAmbassador/3-nagle.jpg) (https://youtu.be/Pm-JxSZ3_GM) (https://s3.amazonaws.com/PGAmagAmbassador/4-george.jpg) (https://youtu.be/alZQQXetfFc)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/PGAmagAmbassador/5-prichard.jpg) (https://youtu.be/baqXG0gKziM)
-
Great work Matt.
Can't wait till the next version, which I already have two tentative speakers lined up!
-
Stellar work, Matt. Thanks so much for your efforts with all of this!! :)
-
Some of you met Northampton CC member John Cavanaugh at this most recent barn fest. A super great guy that Cirba and I got to know b/c of his interest in the architectural heritage of his club.
It is with great sadness that I report the sudden passing of John on June 20. He died on the sofa watching the US Open.
Condolences can be sent to his wife at this address:
Cynthia Cavanaugh
3775 Farmersville Road
Easton, PA 18045
-
Really sad news and John had much to do with the ongoing restoration of Northampton CC to its Robert White lineage, working with Ron Forse and Jim Nagle.
He was very proud of the work and the golf course and a real devotee to architecture in general.
-
Joe,
I am immensely saddened by John's passing. We first met at the Tilly Association outing at Paramount several years ago. He came to ask about the possibilities of Tilly having worked at Northampton. We kept in touch for quite a while and he was doing some wonderful research. Every club needs a passionate lover of its history like he had for NCC.
His passion for the game of golf and its architecture was great, yet it paled in comparison to the gentleman and fine man that he was. I will miss him agreat deal...
-
Joe,
I am immensely saddened by John's passing. We first met at the Tilly Association outing at Paramount several years ago. He came to ask about the possibilities of Tilly having worked at Northampton. We kept in touch for quite a while and he was doing some wonderful research. Every club needs a passionate lover of its history like he had for NCC.
His passion for the game of golf and its architecture was great, yet it paled in comparison to the gentleman and fine man that he was. I will miss him agreat deal...
Very well said, Phil.
Thank you.
-
Phil Young,
You're a good man. Nicely said.
-
In revisiting this thread today I want to thank Joe, Mike and Matt for their efforts here. True ambassadors to golf and gentlemen all. I hope to do it again someday. These guys are to be commended, this was a large undertaking and they really did it well. Thanks guys!
Lester