Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: William_G on January 29, 2015, 08:59:50 PM
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As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.
Turf?
Routing?
Tees?
Greens?
Bunkers?
etc...
What will Keiser do and was this part of the shootout won by DMK?
8)
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I highly doubt it. Why change the magic formula?
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As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.
Turf?
Routing?
Tees?
Greens?
Bunkers?
etc...
What will Keiser do and was this part of the shootout won by DMK?
8)
William,
why would a 'remote' golf resort make carts inevitable?
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As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.
If necessary, I think they could certainly make paths. It wouldn't be their first course that had cartpaths designed into it.
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As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.
Turf?
Routing?
Tees?
Greens?
Bunkers?
etc...
What will Keiser do and was this part of the shootout won by DMK?
8)
William,
why would a 'remote' golf resort make carts inevitable?
$$$, selfishness of client, avid golfer, mature age of client, poor health of client, 36+ holes of golf needed for client to justify trip, client's friends are similar
cheers
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William,
so it is more to do with the client and not the remoteness of the site as you seemed to be saying in your first post.
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"Nae carts, Nae golf"
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I don't think so.
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I would swear I read an article that suggested Mike Keiser was leaning that way. He is, after all, a business first thinking man.
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William,
so it is more to do with the client and not the remoteness of the site as you seemed to be saying in your first post.
hahaha
I have to say that the remoteness of the site is what makes it about the client, eg. the avid retail golfer
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"Nae carts, Nae golf"
no doubt
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When I talked to the VP of Oliphant Golf and guy who is running the project, he seemed to think that Mr. Keiser was still going back and forth on whether or not there will even be carts available. Even if there are carts available they will probably be limited, and it certainly won't effect the design of the courses, accept for maybe choice of turf.
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William,
so it is more to do with the client and not the remoteness of the site as you seemed to be saying in your first post.
hahaha
I have to say that the remoteness of the site is what makes it about the client, eg. the avid retail golfer
and they are more likely to use carts because...................
looking at Bandon you certainly seem to be right, or maybe not eh. Is Bandon not remote enough??? ::)
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I don't understand the point of these threads that are 100% speculation.
Maybe if you changed the title to "Should" instead of "Will" it would make more sense.
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I don't understand the point of these threads that are 100% speculation.
Maybe if you changed the title to "Should" instead of "Will" it would make more sense.
Interesting Tom.
Personally "should" implies control and judgment, so since I have no control in how Sand Valley is built/designed, "will" is the proper term to describe a topic question.
If you gong to have carts, design for it, as SS should have done.
I get your idea though, that pure speculation is not a good thing, but many things here have been beaten to death regarding a ill-defined and supposed profession called Golf Course Architecture ;D
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With Golf carts that have GPS that enable management to decide where carts go, why go with cart paths? I guess you have to ask if you would rather have a few hard pan lies or cart paths? I'd go for hard pan lies (less bounce). If one asked the avg retail golfer with images side by side, would you rather have hard pan or cart paths, I wonder what the consensus would be. Will electric trolleys be available?
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I had the same reaction as Tom Doak - this is just idle speculation. That said, you can look at what Keiser has said in public interviews and other articles to glean what he may be thinking.
It seems that Keiser is considering carts, but in a limited fashion. A quick google search yielded the following responses:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-01-09/sports/ct-golf-sand-valley-spt-0110-20140110_1_kempersports-josh-lesnik-pacific-dunes
Unlike most Keiser properties, golf carts will be permitted. Like Sand Hills, Sand Valley is so remote that it would be difficult to find enough caddies for every player. Walking will be encouraged, though.
http://www.golftripper.com/a-conversation-with-mike-keiser/
GT: That seems like a logical thought process to me. A few minutes ago you touched on something that I’d like to go back to and that’s the use of carts at Sand Valley. Am I understanding correctly that there will be some cart play at Sand Valley?
MK: At least limited, yes. As you know we have them at Bandon Dunes in a limited capacity as well. Sand Valley will not have a huge fleet out front where visitors pull up. Visitors will not just say “Oh we can take a cart”. They will have to make a case for it.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/smooth-sailing-for-sand-valley-golf-project-b99315586z1-268208202.html
As for the first of what could eventually be three or four courses at Sand Valley, Keiser said he was leaning toward fescue fairways, similar to those at Whistling Straits and Erin Hills.
That would make Sand Valley a walking-only course, because fescue does not tolerate motorized carts.
"We're leaning to fescue, and in the next two months we'll look at some options," Keiser said. "We'll hash it out. There will be 10 voters and I will be the judge. As of right now it will be walking only, caddies encouraged. But that could change."
I doubt we will get a definitive answer until it opens in 2017 - and even then, Keiser could always change his mind. I believe Streamsong allowed carts at all times initially, and now has some restriction based on time of day and season.
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Some thoughts:
-- While Sand Valley may be "remote," compared to the likes of Whistling Straits, it's not anywhere nearly as remote as Sand Hills, which is quite literally in the middle of nowhere, and far, far removed from any major metro area. Sand Valley is a moderate day's drive from 3 large urban areas, and given the state of the local, local economy in the Town of Rome and Adams County, I wouldn't be surprised if caddying might prove to be a decent option for local employment.
-- I wonder if the constrained nature of the golf season in central Wisconsin may play a role in the cart decision. This is no year-round place like Bandon -- the season is May to October, with some hot and muggy summer stretches, and the first and last two weeks of that season can be quite iffy. Carts are often viewed as a no-risk money-maker for golf courses; will the reduced golf schedule at Sand Valley lead to carts being an economic decision for the course(s)?
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I just spent two days at a world class golf resort and spent as much on caddies as I did golf. I don't see the human caddie model working that far in the future. This course will only be 5 years old in 2022. I'm sure contingency plans are being considered.
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Phil - your post reminded me of some dialouge from 'Inherit the Wind', with Spencer Tracy as a Clarence Darrow type:
"Gentlemen, progress has never been a bargain. You have to pay for it. Sometimes I think there's a man behind a counter who says:
'You can have a telephone -- but you lose privacy, and the charm of distance. Madam, you may vote, but at a price -- you lose the right to retreat behind the powder puff or your petticoat. Mister, you may conquer the air -- but the birds will lose their wonder,
and the clouds will smell of gasoline."
JK - I'd like to hear more about your trip, e.g. where, how was the golf etc. (Snowbound Canadian happy to hear about anyone playing golf.) Also: if and when a golfer like you starts passing on taking a caddie, the 'model' will surely be irrevocably broken.
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P
love that quote! Thank you
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I just spent two days at a world class golf resort and spent as much on caddies as I did golf. I don't see the human caddie model working that far in the future. This course will only be 5 years old in 2022. I'm sure contingency plans are being considered.
You were at Streamsong or Bandon? Please tell all.
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Bill,
On another thread JK stipulated
"I just played 36 at Pinehurst #2 and would prefer a weekend at Rustic."
But his story would still be enthralling!
Cheers Colin
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Unlike most Keiser properties, golf carts will be permitted. Like Sand Hills, Sand Valley is so remote that it would be difficult to find enough caddies for every player. Walking will be encouraged, though.
I'm struggling to get my head around the logic that says " If there aren't enough caddies to go round, players will need carts."
The rest of the world manages just fine without either. We use trolleys. Electrically powered trolleys.
GT: A few minutes ago you touched on something that I’d like to go back to and that’s the use of carts at Sand Valley. Am I understanding correctly that there will be some cart play at Sand Valley?
MK: At least limited, yes. As you know we have them at Bandon Dunes in a limited capacity as well. Sand Valley will not have a huge fleet out front where visitors pull up. Visitors will not just say “Oh we can take a cart”. They will have to make a case for it.
It sounds to me that Mr Keiser has exactly the right attitude to golf carts. They are available to those who need them , but not offered on a general basis.
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Duncan - I'm not sure I agree with your point about the rest of the world. I think there's a decent case for arguing that we in the UK - or at least in northern Europe - are the anomaly if you look at golf around the world. Lots of carts in most emerging markets, and in others (Thailand) you have a strong caddie culture, because labour is cheap. Even Brits mostly ride when they go to Spain or Portugal to play. Walk and carry, or walk and pull a trolley is increasingly the exception, not the rule. It's the American model of golf that is spreading around the world, which is, imo, one of the reasons it isn't growing faster.
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It hurts me to admit this but I just can't afford to both travel to places like Sand Valley and take caddies. Caddie fees equal the cost of a room or the cost of a rental car or even a really fine meal including booze. I don't take carts because I don't like to walk, I take carts because I can't afford a caddie.
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It hurts me to admit this but I just can't afford to both travel to places like Sand Valley and take caddies. Caddie fees equal the cost of a room or the cost of a rental car or even a really fine meal including booze. I don't take carts because I don't like to walk, I take carts because I can't afford a caddie.
I think this is a really good point -- the move toward "mandatory" caddies (one top of the cost of a single round, the lodging, the meals, the tips) is one that makes me wonder just how sustainable all of these new courses are.
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Phil,
If it's anything like Bandon, you will be able to carry or push if you don't want to pay for a caddie or simply want to burn more calories, both of which are also cheaper than a cart...
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GT: A few minutes ago you touched on something that I’d like to go back to and that’s the use of carts at Sand Valley. Am I understanding correctly that there will be some cart play at Sand Valley?
MK: At least limited, yes. As you know we have them at Bandon Dunes in a limited capacity as well. Sand Valley will not have a huge fleet out front where visitors pull up. Visitors will not just say “Oh we can take a cart”. They will have to make a case for it.
It sounds to me that Mr Keiser has exactly the right attitude to golf carts. They are available to those who need them , but not offered on a general basis.
and caddies are not required at Bandon, never have been...but are required to drive the cart ;)
How will these carts influence the design? Sounds like not at all....
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I prefer walking and would like to see fescue fairways and I think it will be primarily a walking facility. But I wonder if the market (aging boomers like me) and climate (very hot and humid summer days) are conducive to no carts. Walking 36 when its over 90 degrees may be a tough sell. Limited carts (maybe a 2 hour window each day) alternating between courses may be the answer. That way riders won't be locked out and everyone has an option while walking is still strongly encouraged.
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Unlike most Keiser properties, golf carts will be permitted. Like Sand Hills, Sand Valley is so remote that it would be difficult to find enough caddies for every player. Walking will be encouraged, though.
I'm struggling to get my head around the logic that says " If there aren't enough caddies to go round, players will need carts."
The rest of the world manages just fine without either. We use trolleys. Electrically powered trolleys.
GT: A few minutes ago you touched on something that I’d like to go back to and that’s the use of carts at Sand Valley. Am I understanding correctly that there will be some cart play at Sand Valley?
MK: At least limited, yes. As you know we have them at Bandon Dunes in a limited capacity as well. Sand Valley will not have a huge fleet out front where visitors pull up. Visitors will not just say “Oh we can take a cart”. They will have to make a case for it.
It sounds to me that Mr Keiser has exactly the right attitude to golf carts. They are available to those who need them , but not offered on a general basis.
Duncan,
I would agree with you other than in hot climates where a cart is needed. I think that there is also no culture in the states of travelling to low to medium cost golf destinations in the USA for holidays and as such carts become a small cost in the big scheme of things. This is a shame as you miss so much on a golf course that makes playing so worth while if you do not walk.
Jon
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I prefer walking and would like to see fescue fairways and I think it will be primarily a walking facility. But I wonder if the market (aging boomers like me) and climate (very hot and humid summer days) are conducive to no carts. Walking 36 when its over 90 degrees may be a tough sell. Limited carts (maybe a 2 hour window each day) alternating between courses may be the answer. That way riders won't be locked out and everyone has an option while walking is still strongly encouraged.
To me, this is the dilemma that golf resorts face...especially some of the places going up these days in remote areas. Golfers are stuck onsite without much else to do so some will want to play more golf, but 36 holes is a slog for a lot people. Even if they can do it, many won't find walking 36 much fun, but what is the alternative...sitting around drinking and eating for a large chunk of the day? Its for this reason that resorts don't appeal to me and why course location is very important...its nice to slam the clubs in the boot and just hang out or find something else interesting to do. All golf and no culture makes jack a dull boy :D
Ciao
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I think that there is also no culture in the states of travelling to low to medium cost golf destinations in the USA for holidays and as such carts become a small cost in the big scheme of things.
It's easy to think this if your exposure to US golf comes from reading what GCA posters do, but this couldn't be further from the truth. Within 45 minutes of my childhood home are at least 6 golf "resorts." The closest of those to my hometown offers rates of $230 per person for three rounds, two nights lodging, two free breakfasts, and a $20 pro shop gift card. Any way you slice it, that's cheap. A quick glance at the websites of the other resorts suggests that their prices are comparable, if not lower. All prices include carts.
These resorts are all booked solid throughout the warmer months, and full of guests from out of state. The golf quality is somewhere between below-average and abysmal, but the "retail golfer" doesn't care. There are far more golfers in the US traveling to these and similar budget-friendly locations than there are traveling to places like Streamsong, Bandon, or Sand Valley. They just don't hang out on this website, and we don't discuss the budget-friendly locations here because the golf architecture sucks.
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I think that there is also no culture in the states of travelling to low to medium cost golf destinations in the USA for holidays
The owners of the 100+ golf courses and 60,000+ hotel rooms in the Myrtle Beach are might take exception to this...
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Jason,
do they offer this $230 through the main season? If so what is it called?
Jon