Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on January 27, 2015, 07:31:44 PM
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If Gil Hanse designs a course that's comparable with the Red and the Blue, and Streamsong then decides to replicate the original design at Lido, would Streamsong become "the" destination resort in the U.S. in the months of October thru May ?
Would a Lido replicate at Streamsong serve as the same kind of catalyst that Old Macdonald served at Bandon ?
On a personal note, I loved Old Macdonald and Old Macdonald has heightened my interest in returning to Bandon.
Would a Lido replicate serve as a similar lure ?
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I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?
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If Gil Hanse designs a course that's comparable with the Red and the Blue, and Streamsong then decides to replicate the original design at Lido, would Streamsong become "the" destination resort in the U.S. in the months of October thru May ?
Would a Lido replicate at Streamsong serve as the same kind of catalyst that Old Macdonald served at Bandon ?
On a personal note, I loved Old Macdonald and Old Macdonald has heightened my interest in returning to Bandon.
Would a Lido replicate serve as a similar lure ?
Depends on your budget.
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I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?
Eric,
If it was me, and nobody has asked me, yes, I'd replicate TOC and have it play in both directions.
Six courses for the cost of five ;D
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If Gil Hanse designs a course that's comparable with the Red and the Blue, and Streamsong then decides to replicate the original design at Lido, would Streamsong become "the" destination resort in the U.S. in the months of October thru May ?
Would a Lido replicate at Streamsong serve as the same kind of catalyst that Old Macdonald served at Bandon ?
On a personal note, I loved Old Macdonald and Old Macdonald has heightened my interest in returning to Bandon.
Would a Lido replicate serve as a similar lure ?
Depends on your budget.
Sven,
I don't think so in this case.
They already own all of the land, having paid for it ages ago.
The sandy soil available makes moving it rather inexpensive as do some existing lakes/ponds
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Pat:
I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.
Sven
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After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.
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After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.
Have you played Red 16? There it is, chasm and all!
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After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.
Have you played Red 16? There it is, chasm and all!
Ha! We can't have a biarritz green on the chasm hole. :)
Besides, I won't be happy until i'm hitting straight up a 60 foot cliff.
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Pat:
I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.
Sven,
I gave that some thought.
Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.
As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.
I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.
One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.
High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.
One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.
The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.
I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.
It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.
And, Streamsong can't replicate that.
But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.
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After Lido I want the ultimate version of Biarritz. Full original chasm hole and chambre d'amour. Put some of Streamsong's deep mining pits to good use.
Have you played Red 16? There it is, chasm and all!
Ha! We can't have a biarritz green on the chasm hole. :)
Besides, I won't be happy until i'm hitting straight up a 60 foot cliff.
Mark,
The 7th hole Blue, in reverse would satisfy your request, as would many other locations at Streamsong.
I think the potential there is almost unlimited.
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Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel.
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It can't miss, Pat. At least for the Eastern US population, not to mention potential golfers from Europe.
I trust that Gil will build an excellent course with very compelling holes. Add in Lido's 18 and it will be a must play, repeat destination, for the upscale golfing population. I think far fewer people are willing to pay the huge initiation fees to join clubs in Florida. so they'll be willing to pay the somewhat higher daily fees in order to play top notch golf courses.
Personally, I'm thrilled at the prospects of continued appreciation for great golf course architecture, especially a rekindling of Macdonald's classic holes.
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Yes.
You and I have sparred a bit on the merits of Streamsong as a return destination for the average golfer due to its costs and limited golfing opportunities. If what you suggests becomes a reality, I think that would be a game-changer for Streamsong.
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Pat:
Ray B says next time order the Shrimp and Grits. You can't go wrong.
Sven
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Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel.
Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.
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I'm that "local that drives an hour or two, plays 18 and heads home," and while I love Streamsong in its current form, I also want the resort to succeed. I think a 3rd, 4th or 5th course will ensure that, as the target customer..those that come and spend 5-7 days..will now have a reason to do so.
All that said...a reversible course, be it the Old Course or anything else, would be absolutely awesome. Red, Blue, Black, Lido, Reverse. Sign me up for that!
And yes...the shrimp and grits is worth the drive from anywhere.
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Daniel,
Would you say the locals make the trip in the off season to play the course at reduced rates May-Sept? Nov and Dec the rates are very fair. I haven't played the courses but have been meaning to in Dec. $135-150 is a great price point for quality.
''I think far fewer people are willing to pay the huge initiation fees to join clubs in Florida''- I agree completely. You mean there are people that go to Florida just to play golf and don't swim in the pool? ;D ;D ;D
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Pat:
I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.
Sven,
I gave that some thought.
Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.
As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.
I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.
One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.
High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.
One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.
The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.
I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.
It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.
And, Streamsong can't replicate that.
But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.
Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel.
Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.
I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise. I was just letting you know that Streamsongs Managment is split up between two companies. Kemper Sports manages the golfing operations, while Interstate Hotels manages the Lodging and food operations. The intention was just to let you know that any lodging or food related criticisms directed towards Kemper Sports are unwarranted simply because thats not one of the operations under their domain.
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Daniel,
Would you say the locals make the trip in the off season to play the course at reduced rates May-Sept? Nov and Dec the rates are very fair. I haven't played the courses but have been meaning to in Dec. $135-150 is a great price point for quality.
''I think far fewer people are willing to pay the huge initiation fees to join clubs in Florida''- I agree completely. You mean there are people that go to Florida just to play golf and don't swim in the pool? ;D ;D ;D
I think there are certainly some that will wait until summer in order to capture the savings, but I'm just as happy paying $75 as I am $150 because it's worth every penny. What will probably attract me more this summer is lower rates at the lodge where for $300 I can pop down as a solo for a night and play both courses, minus the 2 hour drive home after baking in the sun all day.
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I'm out of my league here, on several fronts; but I can imagine a 'private' course on the horizon, ie only guests staying at the resort will be able to play it. And that designation will determine much, I think, eg who the designer is, what type of course it will be etc. A resort does need at least one 'resort course', doesn't it?
Peter
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Pat:
I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.
Sven,
I gave that some thought.
Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.
As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.
I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.
One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.
High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.
One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.
The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.
I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.
It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.
And, Streamsong can't replicate that.
But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.
Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel.
Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.
I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise. I was just letting you know that Streamsongs Managment is split up between two companies. Kemper Sports manages the golfing operations, while Interstate Hotels manages the Lodging and food operations. The intention was just to let you know that any lodging or food related criticisms directed towards Kemper Sports are unwarranted simply because thats not one of the operations under their domain.
K Rafkin is right. Kemper manages the golf operations and the marketing of the resort. Interstate handles the lodging, food/beverage, spa,
recreation (non-golf) activities and sales/reservations. The average customer doesn't know the difference of who manages what. To them, everyone works for "Streamsong."
Be that as it may, there's a sharp difference in the quality of customer service delivered between the two organizations based on my experience booking two large GCA groups (16 and 22 people). I only wish that I could always work directly with Scott Wilson's team at Kemper in booking a group. The alternative pushed me to forgo planning another such trip.
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I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?
Eric,
If it was me, and nobody has asked me, yes, I'd replicate TOC and have it play in both directions.
Six courses for the cost of five ;D
That would be a fantastic idea. I really mean that. Fantastic.
How many courses could realistically be built at Streamsong, assuming the demand is there?
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Pat: I can understand how a Gil Hanse course will attract more players to Streamsong from the publicity he has received for his being chosen to design the course for the Olympics, although it is far from complete and therefor has not been evaluated. He has also gotten quite a bit of notoriety for his work at Doral. And yes, I realize that he has done some other really high quality work and so he should have a following.
But I would think that less than 1% of golfers have any idea what the Lido course is all about and I would venture that a large percentage of those going to Bandon have no idea why one of the courses is called Old Macdonald. We love the history of gca and OM is fun because of what it represents but that is lost on most of those who play it. So I don't know that building a Lido course will necessarily be successful because of what it represents rather it will be judged on how it compares with the other courses at Streamsong.
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PPallotta- While a private course (or at least private to guests of the resort), would only make sense if there were enough locals around to steal away the tee times from the resort guests. Financially speaking, resort guests are spending more money on the property, thus they are more important for Streamsongs success. If resort guests cannot get tee times then they are unlikely to return or even come in the first place. Given Streamsong's remote location this isnt yet an issue, and likely wont become one in the future (as long as new courses are being built). If Streamsong continues to grow I can see them offering preferred tee times to resort guests exclusively, or only allowing non resort guests to book a short time in advance, but having a resort only course doesn't look to be in the future.
Howard Riefs- I agree. Not only is there a dip off in service from one management group to the other, there is a lack of continuity between them as well. The two management companies are not amply designed to work side by side, which, in my opinion, is where many compilations about the service originate (two cooks in the kitchen). Also due to the fluctuating rates of the Hotel I found it significantly cheaper to book my golf and lodge a la carte instead of purchasing a package, which absolutely should not be possible.
Brian Hoover-That’s a fun question! Although I’m not sure if anyone can answer completely accurately id like to give it a go. Streamsong is 15,000 acres, which is roughly 10x the size of Bandon. The current two courses occupy somewhere between 600-800 acres. The Black course is to sit on top of 250+- acres. Add in another 200-400 acres for the hypothetical, yet inevitable lido course. Lets go ahead and assume that the Lodge, 2 current courses, and 2 future courses take up an astonishing 5000 acres (which they don’t), which also accounts for some unusable land along the property. Now we are left with 10,000 acres. We want our courses to be spread out so lets go ahead and set aside 500 acres for each course which leaves us with 20 more courses that can be built. That being said the real answer is infinity more courses Stream song isn’t located in downtown San Francisco, its located in rural central Florida. If land were to every become an issue (which it wont) Mosiac could just purchase additional property assuming they don't already own it (which they probably do).
Jerry Kluger-The novelty of a course like Old Mac or Lido isn’t in its history but in its uniqueness. Although its neat to talk about with guests while playing, 99% of people who like Old Mac don't care who it is designed by and how it fits into history, they like Old Mac because its different. I would argue that Old Mac is the most unique course in the United States. The uniqueness of Old Mac combined with vastly different BD/PD, and tree lined forest of BT provide the variety that has contributed to Bandon's success. The reason why golfers travel outside of their respective regions is to seek something new. Streamsong has the ability to add something completely different, but have it 1000 feet away, instead of 1000 miles. The real goal of the Lido course (aside from getting some sort of official partnership for marketing purposes out of Keiser), would to be provide something vastly different then what’s already on the property.
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Other than a big immediate splash, do folks think anybody will care what the Lido represents? Does anybody care about Old Mac being a homage or is it just another course at the resort?
Ciao
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My belief is Old Mac adds somewhere between 1-2 minutes to a non gca-devotees conversation, as will Lido. A cherrie on top, at most, but if it prolongs the conversation or interest an ounce it's all good.
To compete Cabot and Sand Valley will be forced to consider island greens, waterfalls and helicopter-access tee boxes. :)
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Other than a big immediate splash, do folks think anybody will care what the Lido represents? Does anybody care about Old Mac being a homage or is it just another course at the resort?
Ciao
Sean,
No doubt, few folks (other than GCA aficianados) will care much about the historical significance of a Lido. What they will care about, IMO, is the fun and/or difficulty or new factor.
On the surface that sounds like an oxymoron, but in reality it's not. A good number of ardent golfers desire a fresh challenge. They can't wait to tee it up at Kiawah Ocean, Whistling Straits, Bethpage Black, Sawgrass etc. Those players revel in trying their hand at a brute. Its practically the DNA of quite a few sub 15 hcps. Golf developers and marketeers know this and have spend a hefty sum promoting a course's resistance to scoring. Like a ski resort advertising the # of black diamond runs, the audience for it remains considerable and passionate.
On the other hand, a slightly greater number of golfers want new, fun, and different. They want fun, playability and interesting aesthetics. Sheer difficulty doesn't attract them, nor does some over-hyped occasional PGA-tour stop marketing crap. Female golfers, for the most part, share this view. Fun-seeking golfers desire amenities and higher quality service. They want to know that if they end up taking a lot of swings, they'll be enjoying the course and the culture of that venue. Scoring becomes almost secondary to pleasure. Anecdotally, my wife and her girlfriends love Streamsong for this reason as much or more than I do!
It's my opinion that Streamsong and Bandon offer up a healthy dose of both and the former's location can do an even better job of serving the it's seasonally-dominated golfers market. Adding a Lido to Streamsong...if it happens...along with the coming Black course, will likely provide a wide enough spectrum of solid golf experience for everyone's taste. I know it'll be easier for me to round up even larger groups of Northeast golfing mates for a multi-day trip than it is now.
Personally, I've found the service (on both the hotel and golf operations sides) to have improved considerably over last year. While I agree both operators could better serve Mosaic with tighter coordination, no newly branded institutional hospitality product "gets it perfect" in it's inception. Rich Mack and his team are doing a very good job of trying hard to get there. Bandon wasn't perfect either when it opened, but eventually they ironed out their kinks and now well deserves it's stellar reputation.
Ultimately, I believe the bigger issues at Streamsong (i.e.. pricing, cart access for the older set, and hotel occupancy) will resolve themselves. Little things (i.e. benches outside by the clubhouse, some food inconsistencies....tho I did find it mostly better than last year) will work out as well. I will say that as a NJ family that avoids the idea of owning a specific second home anywhere just yet, we just love what Streamsong is turning into and looks to become. ;D
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Okay, so the big challenge is layed out. I ask again, does it matter if it is a Lido? I seriously doubt it will matter a tosh to the bottom line, but any marketing is god marketing...at least for a little while. Mind you, any third Streamsong course would get heavily marketed. Personally, I think the idea of a reversable course is a far more long term thrill so long as it is done well.
Ciao
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Sean
FWIW Daniel Wexler writes that if Lido existed today it would be regarded as "one of America's absolute best." He contends nearly every hole could be considered first class. In the late 1920s, after every course (save one or two) that could be considered the greatest in America had been built, a number of cognoscenti considered it...America's greatest course.
The question of course would be, does that greatness port from its original site to what amounts to a former dump, landlocked at that. Something would be lost but still: there would be wind -- excuse me, WIND. Forget the label, I bet many would consider it fantastic. (Raters would rank it too low because as a Florida resort course it lacks Belt-Notcher Chic, like Seminole for example.)
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Okay, so the big challenge is layed out. I ask again, does it matter if it is a Lido? I seriously doubt it will matter a tosh to the bottom line, but any marketing is god marketing...at least for a little while. Mind you, any third Streamsong course would get heavily marketed. Personally, I think the idea of a reversable course is a far more long term thrill so long as it is done well.
Ciao
As far as Lido, I think it matters slightly. It's hard to put an easy and dramatic story behind Old Macdonald that the average golfer will relate to or even want to relate to. Golfers are very aware of the fact that architects exist and most don't really care about the details. But if you sell them the story of the greatest course that ever was, this lost city of Atlantis type thing, they will inherently be intrigued. And at the very least, if it's the first course at Streamsong without a basic color name, it will automatically arouse more curiosity.
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I just really disagree, Mark. This is not Old Macdonald, which was an original course a la The National and not a basic copycat course. (I wish more people got this point, that it is every bit a Tom Doak et al design, and not simply 18 carbon copies. It is in the tradition of NGLA and ANGC.) In contrast we are talking about presumably as close a copy as possible.
Therefore the question is less about the need to educate / brainwash golfers about the course's quality, it's actually about the course's quality. Either the original was a great course or it wasn't, and either that design will port or it won't. Nobody will care that it's the Lido, nor should they. Either it will be great or not.
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I just really disagree, Mark. This is not Old Macdonald, which was an original course a la The National and not a basic copycat course. (I wish more people got this point, that it is every bit a Tom Doak et al design, and not simply 18 carbon copies. It is in the tradition of NGLA and ANGC.) In contrast we are talking about presumably as close a copy as possible.
Therefore the question is less about the need to educate / brainwash golfers about the course's quality, it's actually about the course's quality. Either the original was a great course or it wasn't, and either that design will port or it won't. Nobody will care that it's the Lido, nor should they. Either it will be great or not.
Personally, I agree completely. But if we're talking purely from a marketing standpoint about attracting the average golfer for his first visit, I think the very strengths and weaknesses you mentioned are reversed. It's harder to explain to someone otherwise not interested in architecture why Old Macdonald is something they should go out of their way for. It would be much easier to explain to them why the Lido would be.
For what it's worth, I didn't start the Old Mac comparisons in this thread, I'm just adding my two cents on them.
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I just really disagree, Mark. This is not Old Macdonald, which was an original course a la The National and not a basic copycat course. (I wish more people got this point, that it is every bit a Tom Doak et al design, and not simply 18 carbon copies. It is in the tradition of NGLA and ANGC.) In contrast we are talking about presumably as close a copy as possible.
Therefore the question is less about the need to educate / brainwash golfers about the course's quality, it's actually about the course's quality. Either the original was a great course or it wasn't, and either that design will port or it won't. Nobody will care that it's the Lido, nor should they. Either it will be great or not.
Exactly. If the Lido course was as great as history claims, the appeal of a reconstructed version will be immediately appreciable even to the "Nobody gives a shit who designed this course!" crowd.
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From Jerry Kluger:
"But I would think that less than 1% of golfers have any idea what the Lido course is all about and I would venture that a large percentage of those going to Bandon have no idea why one of the courses is called Old Macdonald. We love the history of gca and OM is fun because of what it represents but that is lost on most of those who play it. So I don't know that building a Lido course will necessarily be successful because of what it represents rather it will be judged on how it compares with the other courses at Streamsong."
Agree totally.
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Pat,
Seems like it's already the best winter resort option that doesn't involve a passport, particularly for anyone east of the Mississippi. Top new courses will serve to consolidate their gains. While the Lido will cause much heart palpitation here and will get a bit of nice extra pub, I hardly think it's a game changer for John Q. Public. Of course those winter rates at Bandon are pretty tempting for the hard core golfer.
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For people with Streamsong money it's hard not to be jacked about Cuba. Tribute courses get filed in the same folder as tribute bands. I don't get the appeal for any demographic including this one.
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Sean
FWIW Daniel Wexler writes that if Lido existed today it would be regarded as "one of America's absolute best." He contends nearly every hole could be considered first class. In the late 1920s, after every course (save one or two) that could be considered the greatest in America had been built, a number of cognoscenti considered it...America's greatest course.
The question of course would be, does that greatness port from its original site to what amounts to a former dump, landlocked at that. Something would be lost but still: there would be wind -- excuse me, WIND. Forget the label, I bet many would consider it fantastic. (Raters would rank it too low because as a Florida resort course it lacks Belt-Notcher Chic, like Seminole for example.)
Yea yea, who knows, maybe an even better course is sitting there without a Lido stamp. Very few people will know the real score. I think any great course gets the job done. Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks. Most people won't give a rat's ass. Build a reverse course that is as good either way? Everybody would care about that.
Ciao
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Hollywood seems stuck on movie remakes. I thought it was because they didn't have any new ideas that could get funded. God only help us if golf starts going down that path. I think it is all a soft con trying to get creativity away from the artists into the bankers hands. Hell, anyone could put Lido in the ground, a historian, an author, a critic, a super all with the help of an upcoming cheap associate. Sounds familiar.
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Sean
FWIW Daniel Wexler writes that if Lido existed today it would be regarded as "one of America's absolute best." He contends nearly every hole could be considered first class. In the late 1920s, after every course (save one or two) that could be considered the greatest in America had been built, a number of cognoscenti considered it...America's greatest course.
The question of course would be, does that greatness port from its original site to what amounts to a former dump, landlocked at that. Something would be lost but still: there would be wind -- excuse me, WIND. Forget the label, I bet many would consider it fantastic. (Raters would rank it too low because as a Florida resort course it lacks Belt-Notcher Chic, like Seminole for example.)
Yea yea, who knows, maybe an even better course is sitting there without a Lido stamp. Very few people will know the real score. I think any great course gets the job done. Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks. Most people won't give a rat's ass. Build a reverse course that is as good either way? Everybody would care about that.
Ciao
Building Lido at Streamsong is similar to Old Mac in a couple regards:
1. Does not matter unless the result is a course that can stand of its own accord in todays' marketplace
2. Heaps of free advertising via articles, TV snippets... etc. dedicated to something different in today's story starved market
The origins of the concept may be pure and historically influenced but #2 is what makes it happen.
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Oh, for goodness sakes:
Just invite Mr Nicklaus to come in, have him build you a championship test stretching out to 7600 yards, hold a big-name tournament there in the dead of winter (The Streamsong Open, brought to you by Mosaic), and your damn hotel will be so full that you'll have to build 3 more!
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They want to bring people in then build a TOUR 18 replica course. :)
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I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.
It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.
and you'll see it again on TV in 2 weeks, fun stuff...used to be called something like the Crosby Clambake :)
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Pat:
I meant the golfer's budget, not the resort's.
Sven,
I gave that some thought.
Steve Lapper and I had an extended conversation about that last night.
As a "destination" resort, and a remote one at that, you would think that you'd want to cater to the customer who can afford your product and everything related to it, such as travel and accomodations.
I don't think Streamsong's "ideal" customer is a local who drives an hour or two, plays 18 and goes home.
One would think that they want golfers, especially "snow birds" to fly down and spend two or three nights at the hotel, playing 3 to five rounds.
High occupancy remains a critical goal.
You don't build a beautiful 218 room hotel and accept occupancy rates below 33 %
Higher occupancy also means better service and better food.
One would think that the Kemper Organization, with their prior experience at Bandon, would get it right, but, I'm not so sure.
The rooms at Bandon were great, but, the food suffered significantly since my last visit.
And I believe that has something to do with their customer.
I hate to bring it up, but Pebble Beach is packed.
Tee times run from 6:30am till the afternoon, seven days a week.
The rooms are nice and the food is excellent.
Yes, it's very expensive, but, golfers are traveling great distances, staying at the hotels and enjoying good food.
It's tough to replicate the setting as it's one of the most magnificent settings in the world, golf or no golf.
And, Streamsong can't replicate that.
But, by crafting really superior courses, they'll attract their share of the market, most of whom reside within the same time zone, which is a real asset in terms of travel.
Patrick-
Kemper Sports only manages the golfing operations while a separate company (Interstate Hotels i think?) manages the hotel.
Yes, but the net revenue from both goes to Mosaic.
I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise. I was just letting you know that Streamsongs Managment is split up between two companies. Kemper Sports manages the golfing operations, while Interstate Hotels manages the Lodging and food operations. The intention was just to let you know that any lodging or food related criticisms directed towards Kemper Sports are unwarranted simply because thats not one of the operations under their domain.
K Rafkin is right. Kemper manages the golf operations and the marketing of the resort. Interstate handles the lodging, food/beverage, spa,
recreation (non-golf) activities and sales/reservations. The average customer doesn't know the difference of who manages what. To them, everyone works for "Streamsong."
Be that as it may, there's a sharp difference in the quality of customer service delivered between the two organizations based on my experience booking two large GCA groups (16 and 22 people). I only wish that I could always work directly with Scott Wilson's team at Kemper in booking a group. The alternative pushed me to forgo planning another such trip.
Howard,
I could not agree more. We took a large group down, and Scott's team was fantastic in helping us arrange it. The hotel and food missed the mark by a longshot. Not only on the planning, but the overall synergies between golf and "other". The first morning, breakfast took an hour. For me, I just want a quick breakfast so I can get to the range and make my tee time. We had to rush - not counting the time you had to waste waiting for your car to come up from valet. Is there still no shuttle between the lodge and the course?
Back to the courses...a reverse TOC would have me there in a heartbeat!!!
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I was just looking at the Lido section of George Bahto's book and I really wonder if a Lido project would work. It was built along the water and it required large of amounts of topsoil to be brought in so it would be above sea level and not be constantly in danger of being flooded. I would suggest that it reminds me of the Ocean Course at Kiawah. I would ask the question of whether the Ocean Course would be as special if it was built inland - to which my answer would be: no. Sure, there are some really good holes that could be built based upon Lido but without the water I don't think it would work as being a tribute to Lido. What I would envision would be a Florida version of Old Macdonald which is certainly not a bad thing but not a 21st century Lido.
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Carson, there is definitely a shuttle (or two or three) that runs between the lodge and the clubhouse on a regular basis. It was one of my favorite perks of being there. But I agree with you wholeheartedly on breakfast. Two things are wrong with P205 as a breakfast venue: (1) the outdoors is completely blocked from view in the restaurant, and (2) there is no buffet. I wasn't a big fan of Fifty-Nine (the restaurant at the clubhouse) either. Thankfully, SottoTerra finally opened our last night, and it was amazing.
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Carson, there is definitely a shuttle (or two or three) that runs between the lodge and the clubhouse on a regular basis. It was one of my favorite perks of being there. But I agree with you wholeheartedly on breakfast. Two things are wrong with P205 as a breakfast venue: (1) the outdoors is completely blocked from view in the restaurant, and (2) there is no buffet. I wasn't a big fan of Fifty-Nine (the restaurant at the clubhouse) either. Thankfully, SottoTerra finally opened our last night, and it was amazing.
That is great to hear. I must have been one of the early guests in the hotel because they definitely did not have it figured out. No shuttle, and valet sometimes took 20 minutes to get your car. Pretty frustrating after an hour breakfast to then have to worry about making your tee time at all; much less time to warm up.
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I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?
Seems TOC is not truly clonable in Florida. FESCUE!
;)
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I was just looking at the Lido section of George Bahto's book and I really wonder if a Lido project would work. It was built along the water and it required large of amounts of topsoil to be brought in so it would be above sea level and not be constantly in danger of being flooded. I would suggest that it reminds me of the Ocean Course at Kiawah. I would ask the question of whether the Ocean Course would be as special if it was built inland - to which my answer would be: no. Sure, there are some really good holes that could be built based upon Lido but without the water I don't think it would work as being a tribute to Lido. What I would envision would be a Florida version of Old Macdonald which is certainly not a bad thing but not a 21st century Lido.
Jerry,
The original Lido sat in a very low-lying area on the southern shore of L.I. that was always prone to tidal flooding. Remember this was before the Army Corps of Engineers and other various authorities did any of the berming, barrier, and dredging projects to any of the surrounding areas. Constant flooding from Nor'easters wrecked havoc along that Long Beach coastal area for years. To a lesser degree, it still does.
Obviously, Streamsong wouldn't have the problem and unquestionably any course built to recreate Lido would need to avoid a potential flood zone found on the original. There is certainly enough water around or within the Mosaic property to potentially satisfy a worthy mimic of the original. Replicas aren't originals and the folks whose dream it is to recreate it know that. Regardless, any attempt by those folks would be awesome and an addition to the resort and the game. Heck...I don't care if it gets done at Streamsong or Sand Valley, I'd travel to play it.
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I think it will draw a lot of interest, Pat. Wonder if a St. Andrews Old Course clone woud be in the mix for future courses beyond the Black and Lido courses?
Seems TOC is not truly clonable in Florida. FESCUE!
;)
Not clonable but there is a pretty good emulation by Jack Nicklaus at Grand Cypress near Disneyworld in Orlando, the "New Course." Definitely in Florida, definitely not terrible.
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Here's a pretty good old thread about Lido, including comments by the later great George Bahto:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35406.0.html
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Carson, there is definitely a shuttle (or two or three) that runs between the lodge and the clubhouse on a regular basis. It was one of my favorite perks of being there. But I agree with you wholeheartedly on breakfast. Two things are wrong with P205 as a breakfast venue: (1) the outdoors is completely blocked from view in the restaurant, and (2) there is no buffet. I wasn't a big fan of Fifty-Nine (the restaurant at the clubhouse) either. Thankfully, SottoTerra finally opened our last night, and it was amazing.
That is great to hear. I must have been one of the early guests in the hotel because they definitely did not have it figured out. No shuttle, and valet sometimes took 20 minutes to get your car. Pretty frustrating after an hour breakfast to then have to worry about making your tee time at all; much less time to warm up.
Carson & Benjamin,
The shuttle was at the door and ready to roll within a few minutes every time we needed it, from the hotel to the clubhouse and back.
We had breakfast at the clubhouse and had no problem with the service or the food.
Ditto lunch and dinner.
On the other hand, I preferred the food at Bandon on my earlier visit versus the food recently.
I think that's an area for improvement.
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Steve Lapper,
They just don't get it.
It's true that few golfers are aware of Lido.
But then again, few golfers are aware of NGLA.
If Streamsong duplicated NGLA do you think the interest in visiting Streamsong would increase ?
Do you think that word of mouth would trumpet the new "NGLA"
NGLA is a spectacular golf course.
Lido was a spectacular golf course.
Duplicate Lido and they will come.
They don't have to know the history.
One play and they'll be sold.
One play and they'll trumpet the merits of "Lido" or the "Green" or whatever you want to call it.
It's the quality of the finished product that's critical, not it's name.
And, if the finished product replicates Lido, it will be a quality product that will attract legions of golfers, near and far.
Steve, please explain that to the moronic non-believers.
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Did the Lido course exist after WWII? It does seem that much of the fascination with the course was the engineering/construction part of it and Raynor was given credit for that. Was it really better than NGLA? Or how would it compare with some of Raynor's courses like Fishers or Yeamans, etc.? Or is it the fact that it no longer exists which causes us to believe it was such a great course from a design point of view?
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Some comments in Dan King's thread about Lido -- that Bill Brightly linked above -- suggest the Lido course itself was probably overrated. George Bahto says that, and apparently the finished course disappointed CBM himself. The press back then was enamored of the engineering marvels needed to build Lido.
As Tom Doak said in that thread, "That last statement makes me wonder for the first time whether Lido was really as good as it was cracked up to be, or whether some of its #2 ranking was simply awe over the scope of the project and how it came to be, much like Shadow Creek."
If Lido was not in fact a fantastic course, that puts a different slant on whether Mosaic should try to recreate it.
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Duplicate Lido and they will come.
Or build any great course and they will come. The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was. Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing. After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name.
Ciao
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In the past couple of year I've been lucky enough to play Pine Valley, NGLA, Chicago, Cypress Point and Cal Club amongst many others. I'd guess 95+% of the average golf market hasn't heard of any of them. Mention Cypress is near Pebble Beach and everyone knows where you are talking about. A Lido impression will be of interest to 0.1% of the market, it doesn't interest me. The GCA market is extremely niche.
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Question for the purists: if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?
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Duplicate Lido and they will come.
Or build any great course and they will come.
The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was.
The fact is that you're wrong.
Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.
They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives
Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing.
That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido
After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name.
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.
Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.
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Question for the purists: if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?
Jud,
Some moron has broken into your computer and is posting on GCA.com under your name.
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Question for the purists: if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?
Jud,
Some moron has broken into your computer and is posting on GCA.com under your name.
So not duplicating it then...
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Question for the purists: if George had the original plans and an exact replica can be built, what would you do about the fact that the course tipped out at 6406 yards with a par of 72?
Jud,
Some moron has broken into your computer and is posting on GCA.com under your name.
So not duplicating it then...
Jud, he's on your computer right now, stop him before he elevates your moron status
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Duplicate Lido and they will come.
Or build any great course and they will come.
The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was.
The fact is that you're wrong.
Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.
They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives
Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing.
That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido
After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name.
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.
Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.
Pat
So friends of yours knew about the quality of Lido...you do not...is this correct? Living vicariously is not the same as personal experience...you have made that quite clear in the past.
You truly are a moron with the reading comprehension of a 4 year idiot. Please cite where I said Lido wasn't great or that a homage couldn't be great.
Stop your bold face lies. I, nor do you, have any idea of a duplicate Lido will be great. You are guessing based on your limited, second hand experience.
Please sharpen you skills before wasting green. You are tiresome.
Ciao
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Streamsong Red and Blue are both outstanding golf courses.
Let's assume that Gil can build one in the same class.
Let's assume that a skilled architect is hired to re-create Lido and he does an excellent job.
We know that Macdonald's holes are great, throw in Raynor's Prize, and we KNOW there will be 18 superb new holes on the property. And this course will present a beautifully contrasting style to the C &C, Doak and Hanse courses.
Jerry might be right, perhaps a signiifcant percentage of golfers won't know or care about C.B. Macdonald. So what? If that is the case, it certianly did not hinder Old Macdonald quickly rising to top ten Modern status.
Four courses of this quality, four options for early morning tee times. This is a can't miss proposition.
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In the past couple of year I've been lucky enough to play Pine Valley, NGLA, Chicago, Cypress Point and Cal Club amongst many others. I'd guess 95+% of the average golf market hasn't heard of any of them. Mention Cypress is near Pebble Beach and everyone knows where you are talking about. A Lido impression will be of interest to 0.1% of the market, it doesn't interest me. The GCA market is extremely niche.
95% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Cypress Point. Judging by my trip to GB&I, 100% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Bandon Dunes. However, you might nearly have to take the inverses of those numbers when talking to the average US golfer. ;)
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They've all heard of Myrtle Beach but Bandon doesn't advertise in the UK, not that I buy golf magazines! But when we have the best links in the world so it's not worth travelling for 15 hours to play an impersonator.
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They've all heard of Myrtle Beach but Bandon doesn't advertise in the UK, not that I buy golf magazines!
But when we have the best links in the world so it's not worth travelling for 15 hours to play an impersonator.
Mark,
I don't think that Bandon's or Streamsong's future hangs in the balance, depending upon play from the UK.
Replica holes are highly valued, why not golf courses ?
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Duplicate Lido and they will come.
Or build any great course and they will come.
The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was.
The fact is that you're wrong.
Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.
They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives
Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing.
That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido
After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name.
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.
Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.
Pat
So friends of yours knew about the quality of Lido
Yes, they played it on many, many occassions.
...you do not...is this correct?
NO.
Living vicariously is not the same as personal experience...you have made that quite clear in the past.
It's not a case of living vicariouslly, it's a matter of having well respected people inform you of the merits of a golf course.
Ron Forse, on numerous occassions has related the details of a golf course to me from an architectural and playability perspective.
Should I disregard his intellect, experience and talent based assessment ?
That's what you want me to do in order to defend your mistake.
And, when I get feedback from golfers with in depth personal experience, combined with in depth discussions with George Bahto, one begins to get a feel for what was created. It's not like I formulated my opinions in a vacuum as you're prone to do.
You truly are a moron with the reading comprehension of a 4 year idiot.
Please cite where I said Lido wasn't great or that a homage couldn't be great.
You stated that I didn't have a clue as to how good Lido was, and you were wrong.
You stated that it was a geek/marketing exercise......... and you are wrong.
You stated that "Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks." and you are wrong.
Stop your bold face lies.
Those are your words, are they not ?
I, nor do you, have any idea of a duplicate Lido will be great.
Wrong again.
I know it would be great, just like a duplicate NGLA would be great.
You are guessing based on your limited, second hand experience.
I'm not guessing, I'm relying on the opinions of several fellows who played Lido extensively in combination with length discussions with George Bahto. I've done my research while you remain clueless.
Please sharpen you skills before wasting green. You are tiresome.
I guess when you don't have a clue as to what you present as The Gospel, you resort to the tiresome routine.
So, who knows more about Lido, YOU ? or me ? ;D
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They've all heard of Myrtle Beach but Bandon doesn't advertise in the UK, not that I buy golf magazines! But when we have the best links in the world so it's not worth travelling for 15 hours to play an impersonator.
If you haven't played all the links in the world, how can you conclude you have the best?
Pat Mucci
;)
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To the vast majority of golfers, hearing that Streamsong has built a replica of Lido will have less appeal than if they were told that Streamsong was building another Tour 18. Nobody cares.
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The thing that nobody talks about when they talk about Lido is the setting of the original course.
The course ran from the Atlantic Ocean on one side [the par-3 8th played along the oceanfront, overlooked by the clubhouse] to the Intracoastal Waterway on the other side, which the famous 4th hole played along. That would be like having a course that stretched across the barrier strip in Palm Beach. Imagine how highly such a course would be rated today: it would be right up there with Pine Valley and National, as Lido was ranked in its day.
I think it would be cool if someone could reproduce the original 18 holes of Lido in a new setting, but the setting is never going to be as appealing as the original.
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But wasn't the Lido's setting a blessing and a curse, because of erosion and property value?
A Lido somewhere else might be more sustainable.
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Duplicate Lido and they will come.
Or build any great course and they will come.
The fact is, none of you have a clue how good Lido was.
The fact is that you're wrong.
Old friends of mine, now deceased, played and belonged to Lido.
They told me how fabulous Lido was and they played all of the great courses in the Metropolitan New York area and were members of a number of good golf courses during their lives
Its a geek/marketing excercise that is short term mildly appealing.
That's just your opinion, one absent any concept regarding the merits of Lido
After a short while, the course will either be considered worth playing or not based on the merits of the design, not the history of the name.
So you're telling us, without an iota of relevant information, that Lido wasn't a good golf course.
Upon what personal information did you make that determination.
Lido was a great golf course and as any moron knows, if you duplicate a great golf course, the duplicate will be great.
Pat
So friends of yours knew about the quality of Lido
Yes, they played it on many, many occassions.
...you do not...is this correct?
NO.
Living vicariously is not the same as personal experience...you have made that quite clear in the past.
It's not a case of living vicariouslly, it's a matter of having well respected people inform you of the merits of a golf course.
Ron Forse, on numerous occassions has related the details of a golf course to me from an architectural and playability perspective.
Should I disregard his intellect, experience and talent based assessment ?
That's what you want me to do in order to defend your mistake.
And, when I get feedback from golfers with in depth personal experience, combined with in depth discussions with George Bahto, one begins to get a feel for what was created. It's not like I formulated my opinions in a vacuum as you're prone to do.
You truly are a moron with the reading comprehension of a 4 year idiot.
Please cite where I said Lido wasn't great or that a homage couldn't be great.
You stated that I didn't have a clue as to how good Lido was, and you were wrong.
You stated that it was a geek/marketing exercise......... and you are wrong.
You stated that "Lidoizing it is just some sugar in top for geeks." and you are wrong.
Stop your bold face lies.
Those are your words, are they not ?
I, nor do you, have any idea of a duplicate Lido will be great.
Wrong again.
I know it would be great, just like a duplicate NGLA would be great.
You are guessing based on your limited, second hand experience.
I'm not guessing, I'm relying on the opinions of several fellows who played Lido extensively in combination with length discussions with George Bahto. I've done my research while you remain clueless.
Please sharpen you skills before wasting green. You are tiresome.
I guess when you don't have a clue as to what you present as The Gospel, you resort to the tiresome routine.
So, who knows more about Lido, YOU ? or me ? ;D
Just so we fully understand. You never set foot on the Lido. Is this correct or not? If it is correct, you are operating on second hand knowledge and hearsay. What you know is reputation. Your opinion on the Lido is therefore, next to useless. Anybody can read the stuff you know in a book. So that neatly and comprehensively sums up your knowledge of Lido. The rest of the rubbish you spout on the subject is a waste of time.
Care to move on to the next load of rubbish you dispense? Like for instance, comparing how great a yet to be built course is to a long since gone course which you never saw? Get a grip man. At least act as though you are grounded in reality.
With that, I leave the discussion to you. You are at your best when arguing with yourself.
Ciao
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I don't think that a strip mine will ever surpass Kiawah, La Quinta, etc. as "the" warm-weather getaway resort.
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So all this has been about the potential of *recreating* a great golf course? A slippery slope, don't you think? I mean, you might just end up having to agree with my contention (made partly in jest, in my 'no excuse' thread) that only a *stellar* golf course is acceptable nowadays, and that to achieve it you don't even need an architect but only a *mimic*, an *impressionist* or best of all a *thief* with very good taste. It's sort of sad, a kind of tacit admission that Hollywood is *right* to focus on remakes -- and that it's only wrong because it keeps remaking (stealing from) less than stellar films.
Geez - I'm starting to understand why JK is the way he is, ie it's hard being the smartest guy in the room.
Peter
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In the past couple of year I've been lucky enough to play Pine Valley, NGLA, Chicago, Cypress Point and Cal Club amongst many others. I'd guess 95+% of the average golf market hasn't heard of any of them. Mention Cypress is near Pebble Beach and everyone knows where you are talking about. A Lido impression will be of interest to 0.1% of the market, it doesn't interest me. The GCA market is extremely niche.
95% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Cypress Point. Judging by my trip to GB&I, 100% of the average GB&I golfers don't know of Bandon Dunes. However, you might nearly have to take the inverses of those numbers when talking to the average US golfer. ;)
God help the analysis if you're the "average US golfer."
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To the vast majority of golfers, hearing that Streamsong has built a replica of Lido will have less appeal than if they were told that Streamsong was building another Tour 18. Nobody cares.
David,
What you and others don't understand is that neither Streamsong, Bandon nor Kohler care or cater to the vast majority of golfers.
They care about and want to cater to that portion of the golfing spectrum that will travel to a destination golf resort and stay and play there.
And that portion of the spectrum knows about Kohler, Bandon and Steamsong.
That portion of the spectrum was keenly interested in the concept and creation of Old Macdonald at Bandon.
That portion of the spectrum made the trek to Bandon to see and play the newest addition at Bandon and that portion of the spectrum will have a keen interest in the creaton of Lido at Streamsong.
Destination golfers aren't as uninformed as you and others seem to feel.
Don't ever sell good to great architecture short, especially to destination golfers.
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Pat,
I'm not sure about the destination golfer. I think there are two types. There is "he Pebble Beach" type and the "Cypress Point" type. And I don't know where Streamsong fits. Now none of that assumption has to do with the quality of the golf at Streamsong. The "Pebble Beach" guy will play TPC Sawgrass, PGA National and maybe another Florida TPC course for a golf trip. He has no idea what Lido is. The "Cypress Point" guy will do Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and maybe Timaquana. I'm just not sure of the market but obviously people that know much more than myself have that figured...
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To the vast majority of golfers, hearing that Streamsong has built a replica of Lido will have less appeal than if they were told that Streamsong was building another Tour 18. Nobody cares.
Sadly, you are probably right. But I'm an optimist and I say a Lido replica will generate much more interest in 2018 than it would have in 1998. Especially if they do a good job marketing it and explaining the history behind the templates.
The 4 courses at Streamsong will surely generate a lot of play. So it's a good thing that a little golf course architecture education will occur, even if by accident...
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Pat,
I'm not sure about the destination golfer. I think there are two types. There is "he Pebble Beach" type and the "Cypress Point" type. And I don't know where Streamsong fits. Now none of that assumption has to do with the quality of the golf at Streamsong. The "Pebble Beach" guy will play TPC Sawgrass, PGA National and maybe another Florida TPC course for a golf trip. He has no idea what Lido is. The "Cypress Point" guy will do Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and maybe Timaquana. I'm just not sure of the market but obviously people that know much more than myself have that figured...
Mike, I use myself as an example. Middle-aged baby boomer who belongs to a private club in the Northeast with the means to pay SS's rates. What I do NOT want to do is buy a condo or house in Florida and plop down $100,000 to $250,000 to join a private club, especially for the typical courses that are on the ground in Florida. ( I think my generation is far less inclined to be committed to one warm weather location.) So I'll pay SS prices for a 4-5 day trip, enjoy being able to walk, and I'll have no problem getting 7 other guys from my club to fill out my group.
I think that scenario will be played out at club after club in the Northeast.
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Just so we fully understand. You never set foot on the Lido. Is this correct or not?
It's not correct.
If it is correct, you are operating on second hand knowledge and hearsay.
But, it's not correct.
What you know is reputation.
Your opinion on the Lido is therefore, next to useless.
Anybody can read the stuff you know in a book.
So that neatly and comprehensively sums up your knowledge of Lido.
No, it doesn't.
And as usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
The rest of the rubbish you spout on the subject is a waste of time.
Care to move on to the next load of rubbish you dispense?
Like for instance, comparing how great a yet to be built course is to a long since gone course which you never saw?
I never stated that the yet to be built course was great, only that if Lido was replicated it would be great.
There is a difference, have someone explain it to you.
Get a grip man. At least act as though you are grounded in reality.
With that, I leave the discussion to you.
You are at your best when arguing with yourself.
At least I'll be having a debate with an intelligent, well informed person.
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Just so we fully understand. You never set foot on the Lido. Is this correct or not?
It's not correct.
...
Which Lido Pat?
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Just so we fully understand. You never set foot on the Lido. Is this correct or not?
It's not correct.
...
Which Lido Pat?
Garland,
You would have to introduce that qualifier ;D But, then again, you know the answer
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With the average American tourist thinking it odd why the Queen "built" Windsor Castle under the flight path of Heathrow airport, I hold out little hope the average American golfer will understand much about templates behind holes 😉.
Terry - I can do average, I once and it was only once played a course where you took your clubs out of the trunk of the car and had to carry them the the pro shop to get your cart. Never been so ashamed in my life...
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FWIW:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html
Same day filing:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html
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FWIW:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html
Same day filing:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html
Wow. Between this and Doak's reversible course, the next few years are going to be really special for GCA geeks.
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FWIW:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html
Same day filing:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html
Maybe living in FL isn't so bad after all...maybe.
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FWIW:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html
Same day filing:
https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-86481872.html
Yahtzee
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Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido? Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?
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Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido? Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?
Tony,
I don't see it making enough of a difference to outweigh the difference in land acquisition costs along with the brain damage incurred to get the permits to build such a re-creation anywhere up North.
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Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido? Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?
Tony,
I don't see it making enough of a difference to outweigh the difference in land acquisition costs along with the brain damage incurred to get the permits to build such a re-creation anywhere up North.
Sand Valley?
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Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido? Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?
There is no bent grass that I've played anywhere that is as firm and fast as Streamsong is right now.
It's firm and fast, not just tight- and not tight and wet.
Ground game options abound, and the firmness is similar to the fescues of the UK
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Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido? Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?
There is no bent grass that I've played anywhere that is as firm and fast as Streamsong is right now.
It's firm and fast, not just tight- and not tight and wet.
Ground game options abound, and the firmness is similar to the fescues of the UK
Same at Pinehurst #2 right now. Glorious playing surface.
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Would the south and Bermuda be ideal for a New Lido? Wouldn't a northern climate and fescue/bents be superior?
There is no bent grass that I've played anywhere that is as firm and fast as Streamsong is right now.
It's firm and fast, not just tight- and not tight and wet.
Ground game options abound, and the firmness is similar to the fescues of the UK
Same at Pinehurst #2 right now. Glorious playing surface.
Ice?
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Maybe? :D Let me back up and say last weekend's playing surface was glorious!
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Maybe? :D Let me back up and say last weekend's playing surface was glorious!
actually 68 on Sunday coming up-wow
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I'm very excited about the possibility of the Lido course and I think it will be a seriously good investment for Streamsong. Not only will it get the golf cognoscenti fired up, but it allows SS to market "Come play the greatest course that never was" They will be able to scream how good it is, because not many are even really sure HOW good the original Lido was.
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From Matty G. last year:
"if the new Lido course ever gets built, Doak would be the obvious choice. He has extensive knowledge of Macdonald's template holes and along with former partner Jim Urbina, built Old Macdonald at Bandon Dunes, which was an homage to "the father of American golf architecture."
Question- If the course is in fact going to be a fairly exact replica and not a reinterpretation a la Old Mac, 1) How do you sell a big name GCA on taking this project on and 2) how is it then attributed?
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It is well-accepted there are a myriad of reasons why courses are great. To simply assume a Lido redux can inspire golfers to a similar degree the original did (although that now seems to be a matter of some discussion), would seem, at best presumptuous and at worst foolhardy. Can an architect, even one of the current greats, simply lift the long since vanished course from its ocean home and drop it into the middle of Florida and achieve the same level of inspiration? Perhaps a version of it. Like repainting "The Last Supper". Surely, gca is more complicated than that. For it to be great, it has to play great. It just might be the ultimate bait and switch.
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John Connolly,
Obviously you've never played the "Short" course at Pine Valley.
Today, replication isn't a difficult feat if you have the land, money, permits along with a competent architect
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From Matty G. last year:
"if the new Lido course ever gets built, Doak would be the obvious choice. He has extensive knowledge of Macdonald's template holes and along with former partner Jim Urbina, built Old Macdonald at Bandon Dunes, which was an homage to "the father of American golf architecture."
Question- If the course is in fact going to be a fairly exact replica and not a reinterpretation a la Old Mac, 1) How do you sell a big name GCA on taking this project on and 2) how is it then attributed?
judT
The answer to your questions are
1). It's called MONEY
2). The same way Old Macdonald was attributed
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Pat,
I'm not sure about the destination golfer. I think there are two types. There is "he Pebble Beach" type and the "Cypress Point" type. And I don't know where Streamsong fits. Now none of that assumption has to do with the quality of the golf at Streamsong. The "Pebble Beach" guy will play TPC Sawgrass, PGA National and maybe another Florida TPC course for a golf trip. He has no idea what Lido is. The "Cypress Point" guy will do Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and maybe Timaquana. I'm just not sure of the market but obviously people that know much more than myself have that figured...
Mike,
I don't think the lines of demarcation are that clear.
The golfer that plays CPC, Indian Creek, Seminole, Mountain Lake and Timiquana will also travel to play Kohler, Bandon and Streamsong, quality destination/resort golf courses.
The same is true for the PBGC, TPC and PGA golfer. He'll travel to the newest sensation and Kohler, Bandon and Streamsong were/are the newest sensation.
All three of those resorts had an advantage.
Once they had a course or two of note in play, there was a heightened interest in their next course.
Bandon became a "Target" destination immediately after Bandon Dunes opened.
It took a quantum leap with the addition of Pacific Dunes.
It took additional leaps with Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald.
Streamsong benefited from a spectacular opening quinella.
Streamsong will take another leap with the addition of another terrific golf course.
As to the naysayers, morons all, Lido has enjoyed the loftiest of architectural reputations for decades upon decades.
Now, suddenly, the naysayers are claiming that Lido was a myth, overrated and mediocre at best.
I can't think of a CBM/SR course that's not well regarded, so why would replicating what was once deemed one of the greatest CBM/SR courses be poorly received ?
Those not interested in architecture might not have known who C.B. Macdonald was before they played Old Macdonald, but i'dventure to say that they knew about him when they made their reservations and/or after they played the course.
Why would it be different with Streamsong and Lido ?
Streamsong will only get better
They get it.
Richard Mack gets it.
Scott Wilson gets it.
And if they decide to replicate Lido, the commissioned architect will get it.
I've never been disappointed with any CBM/SR course I've played and I can't imagine being disappointed by playing a replica of Lido.
As to the ocean, there was only one hole one the ocean, a long par 3.
In addition, Lido Boulevard, a major thoroughfare ran right through the golf course.
I have every confidence that a skilled architect could replicate Lido at Streamsong
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John Connolly,
Obviously you've never played the "Short" course at Pine Valley.
Today, replication isn't a difficult feat if you have the land, money, permits along with a competent architect
No I haven't played "Short". I understand there are 10-12 replica holes - but they're on site. The same site. I guess that's my principle point. Streamsong Lido would be quite disparate geographically (and agronomically) and replicating the original would be pretty challenging. But that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea - my hope is that it would be built in such a way that it's a great course on its own merits. And, as a bonus, it's a replica of an American classic. Pretty cool. If we're inclined to select Pebble or TOC on Golden Tee or a Golf Simulator, clearly we'd be intrigued enough to make the trek. If they spent a gazillion dollars to build Pine Valley or ANGC in Omaha, hell I'd show up.
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As to the naysayers, morons all, Lido has enjoyed the loftiest of architectural reputations for decades upon decades.
Now, suddenly, the naysayers are claiming that Lido was a myth, overrated and mediocre at best.
The 'naysayers' include Tom Doak and George Bahto. They aren't saying Lido was mediocre. But they raise the question if it was as good as is claimed. As for 'suddenly,' this goes back to 2008.
I can't think of a CBM/SR course that's not well regarded, so why would replicating what was once deemed one of the greatest CBM/SR courses be poorly received ?
A real good point, whether or not Lido was a top 3 course. Especially since to my knowledge, few if any top CBM/SR courses are public. Could be a real eye-opener, even more than Old Mac, where Tom interpreted/used CBM's principles, but made no attempt to duplicate his holes.
If they can truly duplicate the course, they might even improve on the original, at least in one way. CBM was disappointed with the finished product: the builders didn't put in all the folds he wanted. A top architectural team might remedy that.
Question: how does the wind at Streamsong compare to the wind at the original Lido site?
[/quote]
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John Connolly,
Obviously you've never played the "Short" course at Pine Valley.
Today, replication isn't a difficult feat if you have the land, money, permits along with a competent architect
No I haven't played "Short". I understand there are 10-12 replica holes - but they're on site. The same site. I guess that's my principle point.
By "on site" do you mean the same postal address ?
Have you played the 18 hole course at Pine Valley with it's unique terrain ?
The introduction of the replica short course is or should be one of the wonders of the golfing world.
It's really quite special.
Fazio and Ransome combined to produce an incredible replica course.
If you've played the "big" course and observed the unique topography you'd realize what a unique challenge they faced, yet, I they were successful beyond one's imagination.
Lido was on a dead flat piece of property, something that should be easily duplicated at Streamsong
Streamsong Lido would be quite disparate geographically (and agronomically) and replicating the original would be pretty challenging.
No more so than NGLA and Old Macdonald.
And the topography is similar as is the sandy soil
But that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea - my hope is that it would be built in such a way that it's a great course on its own merits.
I think the folks at Streamsong understand the need to build any course as a quality course, irrespective of whether it's an original or replica.
And, as a bonus, it's a replica of an American classic. Pretty cool. If we're inclined to select Pebble or TOC on Golden Tee or a Golf Simulator, clearly we'd be intrigued enough to make the trek.
If they spent a gazillion dollars to build Pine Valley or ANGC in Omaha, hell I'd show up.
I believe the problem with prior replica courses was the combination of insufficient funds and forcing non-exact/near replica holes.
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Jim Nugent asked about the wind similarity btw the original site for Lido and Streamsong.
While I don't have any historical or quantitative data to back this up, I believe, anecdotally (years of golf and windsurfing nearby), that the breezes that sweep the South shore of LI are mostly moderate during the golf season, absent any significant Atlantic storms or Nor'easters, usually prevalent in the Spring and Fall. Summer winds there aren't even "trade-strength" for the most part, instead rising to 10-15mph in the later afternoons for the most part.
Florida denizens can better opine, but in my multiple visits (ranging only from Dec-March) to Streamsong, I've noticed decent winds, especially in the pm hours. I don't know if that's seasonal, but I'd imagine any terrain on essentially a wide peninsula between two large bodies of water would favor some sort of consistent breezes.
I'd add that Streamsong, with it's abundance of potential for artificial elevations and natural or otherwise lakes and ponds, would be an absolutely ideal site for a Lido recreation. Much more so than a Sand Valley glacial moraine.
Cheers!