Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Rich Goodale on January 27, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
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Alphabetically, within each group of 10. All played (90+) or seriously walked (the rest). Hey, If Tom Doak can do it, so can I!
1st 10
Ballybunion
Birkdale
Carnoustie
County Down
Dornoch
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Portrush
Sandwich
Turnberry
2nd 10
Castle Stuart
Hoylake
Kingsbarns
Lahinch
Lytham St. A
Prestwick
St, Andrews Old
Troon
Trump Intl.
Western Gailes
3rd 10
Deal
Elie
Hunstanton
Littlestone
Panmure
Portsalon
Renaisssance
Royal Aberdeen
Rye
Waterville
4th 10
Alwoodley
Ballyliffin Old
Hankley Common
Liphook
Loch Lomond
North Berwick
Silloth
Southerness
Swinley
Westward Ho
5th 10
Cruden Bay
Enniscrone
Gullane #1
Ladybank
Leven
Machrihanish
Murcar
Southerndown
St. Andrews New
Wallasey
6th 10
Blairgowrie
Carne
Connemarra
Glasgow Gailes
Lossiemouth
Lundin
Nairn
Seaton Carew
Sheringham
St. Andrews Eden
7th 10
Brora
Bruntisfield
Gleneagles-Kings
Painswick
Peterhead
Royal Burgess
Scotscraig
Skibo
West Hill
West Kilbride
8th 10
Ballyliffin-New
Crail-Hanse
Downfield
Forfar
Hesketh
Mulranney
Northumberland
Pennard
RAC-Fowler
Shiskine
9th 10
Crail-Balcomie
Glenbervie
Gleneagles-Queens
Gullane #2
Kilspindie
Lanark
Musselburgh Old
Nairn Dunbar
Northumberland
St. Andrews Jubilee
10th 10
Auchterader
Bruntsfield
Dornoch-Struie
Dunbar
Elgin
Monifieth
Montrose
Pitferrane
Stirling
Troon-Portland
Rich
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that third ten is damned long!
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Rich -
Dornoch-Struie better than Tain or Golspie? Are you sure about that? ;)
DT
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that third ten is damned long!
Long, but good!
I knew I'd lost a 10. Thanks, Adam.
Rich
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Rich -
Dornoch-Struie better than Tain or Golspie? Are you sure about that? ;)
DT
Yes, David, very sure. You can, of course, disagree. Please tell us why you do.
Rich
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Rich -
I do and I will, the next time we cross paths in Dornoch!
DT
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Rich - thanks, very nice, and I'm glad that you have joined Sean and Bogey in creating your list. Now, apologies in advance, as I'm going to put words in your mouth even though I shouldn't put words in your mouth:
It is almost as if, if one wanted to and was so inclined, your groupings of ten could be looked at and categorized/characterized as follows:
1st 10: "10s" on the scale formerly known as the Doak Scale
2nd 10: "9s"on said scale
3rd 10: "8s" (a damn good score/rank)
4th 10: "7s" (still damn good)
5th 10: "6s" (still much better than most courses I have ever played)
6th 10: "5s" (see above)
7th 10 - 10th 10: (all above the average "4s")
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Peter
The Doak Scale is based on the 10,000+ golf courses in the world. My top GBI 100 is based on the 150 or so courses I have played or seriously walked in GBI in the 37 years I have visited and/or lived there. I can give an informed opinion as to how those courses might be Doak-ranked based on my experiences playing 200+ courses of high quality in other parts of the world, mostly the USA, but also mainland Europe, Australia and Canada. That being said, I can't conceive of a Doak "0". In fact, a few years ago I walked 4-5 holes with TD himself at his most famous "0" (The Castle Course) and while we agreed that it was very much over-egged i would give it a 4, if asked.
As for my GBI 100, it probably includes 100% of the GBI Doak 10s, 80% of the GBI Doak 8-9s, and at least 50% of his GBI 6-7s and maybe 10% of the UK courses he has never seen. I would replay any of the courses on my list, although not at the rack rate for those whose reach exceeds their grasp.
Cheers
Rich
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Rich,
An interesting list. I'm not surprised to find that I find far fewer placings that I disagree with in yours than I did in Sean's, highly though I rate his judgment. Delighted to see Elie so high, pleased to see Silloth do well and very pleased to see Northumberland make your list. I'm also in full agreement of your respective rankings of Balcomie and Craighead.
Am I right to assume that you are yet to get to St Enodoc and Ganton?
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Is the place where I can write something whitty like:
Don't hold out any hope for Cavendish, as Rihc's list is very Scottish-centric, and I very much doubt that Goodale has played or even driven by Cavendish. You will be pleased to know that my more balanced top-100 includes Cavendish along with plenty of other gems, Hesketh excluded because it is dreadful.
Nice exercise, but I am waiting to hear how Leven is anywhere near the class of Cruden Bay... ;)
Ciao
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Rich,
An interesting list. I'm not surprised to find that I find far fewer placings that I disagree with in yours than I did in Sean's, highly though I rate his judgment. Delighted to see Elie so high, pleased to see Silloth do well and very pleased to see Northumberland make your list. I'm also in full agreement of your respective rankings of Balcomie and Craighead.
Am I right to assume that you are yet to get to St Enodoc and Ganton?
Mark
I've missed almost as many in England as Sean has missed in Scotland. St. Enodoc and Ganton and the Sunningdales (putting green included) and the Berkshires and Huntercombe and Brancaster, and Burnham and Berrow and Trevose , not to mention those fellow Gaels at Aberdovey and Porthcawl, etc. etc. Far too many golf courses and far too many years to be able to carry one's's drive 220+. I'll continue to chip away at my SB (Southern Britain) resume as long aS my daughter keeps working in London and I am still a member of UKSGA.
All the best
Rich
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Sean
If you have read any of my posts on Cruden Bay, you will know that have always believed that the course was overrated. Assuming you have not, here are the Cliff notes:
1. Looking out from the clubhouse, CB is one of the finest courses in the world. Unfortunately, 9 of the holes you see in front of you are not on the main course but on the St. Olaf's.
2. As for the main course, it is an average opener, 2 is extremely goofy even for very low handicap players, 3 is a good challenge if you can hit a driver 300 yards through a 20 yard gap (otherwise you lay up and then DOH), 4 is a tough 3 par that needs a 200+ yard club into the wind--no strategy other than hit and hope. on the 5th I once stood for 30 minutes in a tournament on this visually spectacular tee. It is two thoughtless hacks to a stupidly enlarged green. 6 was a good hole when OTM designed it. The new T Simpson one is more interesting, but less conducive to strategy 7 is quirky hit a good drive and then hit your second between the gial posts and hope you have tghe right yardage. 8 is a driver whacked straight or you are fucked. 9 has a great view from the tee but from there to 18 it is MEH? to me. The fact that they have blown up and are changing most of the back 9 tells me that all is not fine in Cruden Bay.
3. As for Leven, it is pure links, no gimmicky holes, lots of challenges and lots of fun. What's wrong with it and what's right with CB, Sean?
Rich
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1. Looking out from the clubhouse, CB is one of the finest courses in the world. Unfortunately, 9 of the holes you see in front of you are not on the main course but on the St. Olaf's.
The 3 best holes IMO of all 27 (28) at CB are the 6th, 7th and 8th on the St Olaf course. One of the best 9-hole courses around and a wasted opportunity if anyone visits CB and doesn't play it as well as the main course.
Nice listings Rihc, bracketing in "10's" in a good basis. Interesting and thought provoking.
Hope you get to play more down south.
Atb
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Rich, I'm pleased to see Carnoustie in the top 10. I thought it was fantastic and nowhere near the brute it is purported to be.
Please tell me you have The Old Course at 11th. To see it grouped with Trump International is bold stuff indeed. Are you well?
I take it you have not been to Sunningdale and Walton Health. Please go immediately.
Kindest regards,
Bogey
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2. As for the main course, it is an average opener, 2 is extremely goofy even for very low handicap players, 3 is a good challenge if you can hit a driver 300 yards through a 20 yard gap (otherwise you lay up and then DOH), 4 is a tough 3 par that needs a 200+ yard club into the wind--no strategy other than hit and hope. on the 5th I once stood for 30 minutes in a tournament on this visually spectacular tee. It is two thoughtless hacks to a stupidly enlarged green. 6 was a good hole when OTM designed it. The new T Simpson one is more interesting, but less conducive to strategy 7 is quirky hit a good drive and then hit your second between the gial posts and hope you have tghe right yardage. 8 is a driver whacked straight or you are fucked. 9 has a great view from the tee but from there to 18 it is MEH? to me. The fact that they have blown up and are changing most of the back 9 tells me that all is not fine in Cruden Bay.
They are moving the tenth tee and making a few changes to 16 green. With respect, that's not exactly 'the majority of the back nine'
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How does that song go ? I know "Northumberland, Northumberland, so good they named it twice !"
Anyway, glad to see Rich, like Sean with Dornoch, is willing to sacrifice another sacred cow in the shape of Cruden Bay. Again I agree. My beef with the course was the four blind holes on a trot on the back nine. Pissed me off no end however given what I had to say on the blind holes thread I suspect I would end up loving them if I ever became a member.
There's quite a few courses that I'm glad were included and I don't just mean Forfar. Glenbervie for one, then there's Elgin, Glasgow Gailes, Troon, and Southerness. All courses that are relatively unknown or don't get a lot of love even if they are.
As with Sean's list I'm deeply envious of the amount and quality of courses played.
Niall
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2. As for the main course, it is an average opener, 2 is extremely goofy even for very low handicap players, 3 is a good challenge if you can hit a driver 300 yards through a 20 yard gap (otherwise you lay up and then DOH), 4 is a tough 3 par that needs a 200+ yard club into the wind--no strategy other than hit and hope. on the 5th I once stood for 30 minutes in a tournament on this visually spectacular tee. It is two thoughtless hacks to a stupidly enlarged green. 6 was a good hole when OTM designed it. The new T Simpson one is more interesting, but less conducive to strategy 7 is quirky hit a good drive and then hit your second between the gial posts and hope you have tghe right yardage. 8 is a driver whacked straight or you are fucked. 9 has a great view from the tee but from there to 18 it is MEH? to me. The fact that they have blown up and are changing most of the back 9 tells me that all is not fine in Cruden Bay.
They are moving the tenth tee and making a few changes to 16 green. With respect, that's not exactly 'the majority of the back nine'
Adam
I may have been exaggerating, but I think they have been screwing around with the back nine for several years now, including the building of a new 9th green, and new 19th hole between 12 and 13 and changes to 14 and 15. You're in the business of knowing these things and I'm just an observer. Where am I wrong?
Rich
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Rich, I'm pleased to see Carnoustie in the top 10. I thought it was fantastic and nowhere near the brute it is purported to be.
Please tell me you have The Old Course at 11th. To see it grouped with Trump International is bold stuff indeed. Are you well?
I take it you have not been to Sunningdale and Walton Health. Please go immediately.
Kindest regards,
Bogey
My friend
I am well, but I fear that If I ever play Sunningdales (new, old and/or putting green) or either Heaths of Walton, TOC may be thrown into the front of my 3rd 10 bus. Great experience, but far better golf in GBI, IMHO. i think I've articulated this opinion many times on this web site.
Rich
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You write the book on the Old Course and then put it in the second 10? Explain please.
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Rich, you have been on a great journey and I am jealous. I can't really come up with a top 10, always seem to merge the top 30 into one group, depending upon how I felt when I played the third time.
I know you were about to put TORRANCE in the 11th group!
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2. As for the main course, it is an average opener, 2 is extremely goofy even for very low handicap players, 3 is a good challenge if you can hit a driver 300 yards through a 20 yard gap (otherwise you lay up and then DOH), 4 is a tough 3 par that needs a 200+ yard club into the wind--no strategy other than hit and hope. on the 5th I once stood for 30 minutes in a tournament on this visually spectacular tee. It is two thoughtless hacks to a stupidly enlarged green. 6 was a good hole when OTM designed it. The new T Simpson one is more interesting, but less conducive to strategy 7 is quirky hit a good drive and then hit your second between the gial posts and hope you have tghe right yardage. 8 is a driver whacked straight or you are fucked. 9 has a great view from the tee but from there to 18 it is MEH? to me. The fact that they have blown up and are changing most of the back 9 tells me that all is not fine in Cruden Bay.
They are moving the tenth tee and making a few changes to 16 green. With respect, that's not exactly 'the majority of the back nine'
Adam
I may have been exaggerating, but I think they have been screwing around with the back nine for several years now, including the building of a new 9th green, and new 19th hole between 12 and 13 and changes to 14 and 15. You're in the business of knowing these things and I'm just an observer. Where am I wrong?
Rich
Technically the ninth isn't on the back nine :)
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You write the book on the Old Course and then put it in the second 10? Explain please.
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Hi Jason
They paid me to write the book. They did not pay me to write anything I did not believe.
Hope to set you in Scotland again soon.
Rich
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Technically the ninth isn't on the back nine :)
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Adam
We all know that CB is quirky.
Rich
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You write the book on the Old Course and then put it in the second 10? Explain please.
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Hi Jason
They paid me to write the book. They did not pay me to write anything I did not believe.
Hope to set you in Scotland again soon.
Rich
Me too!
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Rich --
If only I were in any position to argue with you!
Dan
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Rihc
If I only look at CBs par 5s I will see better holes than all of Leven. The terrain too is miles better at CB, but there are some dubious holes...not suprising given the terrain. We are well apart on this one so there isn't much point in a discussion. To me, Leven makes your list because it is heavily Scottish oriented...far too heavily Scottish oriented considering the sheer volume of English courses compared to Scotland. That said, you live in Scotland so it is to be expected.
Ciao
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Rich --
If only I were in any position to argue with you!
Dan
Of course you can argue with me, compadre! All of us in these Top XXX thread discussions just are smoking our own exhaust!
Rich
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Sean,
There's no doubt in my mind that the highs at CB are higher than those at Leven (indeed, the best holes at Lundin are, I think, superior to the best at Leven). It's also true that both CB and Leven have weaker holes. However, CB has more very ordinary holes than Leven. You 're right that much of CB is on excellent land (though why some of that best land was used for the St Olaf course whilst the main course has the very dull 9-13 stretch of land and a dull couple of closing holes is a mystery) but the dunes on the holes nearer the sea at Leven are good land and really well used. For me, CB is more attractive, mainly because of the brilliance of 3-8 but Leven is, quite possibly, the better course.
It's interesting that Rich's list coincides far more with my own opinion on courses like Muirfield and Dornoch, perhaps we share some sort of puritanical desire to be tested which you don't?
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Mark
Let me advise you on the mystery of the St Olaf course. Some of that land was indeed used for an earlier iteration of the main course as well as an earlier iteration of the ladies or nine hole course laid out by Weir. However over the winter of 1920/1921 Tom Simpson revamped the course to produce a new 18 hole routing for the main course that incorporated what is essentially the St Olaf course. However it would appear this course wasn't to the liking of the members or perhaps was part of some Simpson masterplan to redevelop the course in stages as the following winter the existing 4th was built (MacAndrew, the CB professional was given design credit) and at that point the old starting holes were reincorporated into the routing and what is now the St Olafs holes were taken out of main course and formed the nine hole course.
Off the top of my head todays 11th was built then, again credited to MacAndrew.
That routing is more or less what is there today as far as I can tell.
Niall
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Mark
Let me advise you on the mystery of the St Olaf course. Some of that land was indeed used for an earlier iteration of the main course as well as an earlier iteration of the ladies or nine hole course laid out by Weir. However over the winter of 1920/1921 Tom Simpson revamped the course to produce a new 18 hole routing for the main course that incorporated what is essentially the St Olaf course. However it would appear this course wasn't to the liking of the members or perhaps was part of some Simpson masterplan to redevelop the course in stages as the following winter the existing 4th was built (MacAndrew, the CB professional was given design credit) and at that point the old starting holes were reincorporated into the routing and what is now the St Olafs holes were taken out of main course and formed the nine hole course.
Off the top of my head todays 11th was built then, again credited to MacAndrew.
That routing is more or less what is there today as far as I can tell.
Niall
Very interesting, Niall, I'm 5000 miles away from my copy of the CB history book, but your account doesn't fit with my memory. Do you have another newer source?
Cheers
Rich
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Sean,
There's no doubt in my mind that the highs at CB are higher than those at Leven (indeed, the best holes at Lundin are, I think, superior to the best at Leven). It's also true that both CB and Leven have weaker holes. However, CB has more very ordinary holes than Leven. You 're right that much of CB is on excellent land (though why some of that best land was used for the St Olaf course whilst the main course has the very dull 9-13 stretch of land and a dull couple of closing holes is a mystery) but the dunes on the holes nearer the sea at Leven are good land and really well used. For me, CB is more attractive, mainly because of the brilliance of 3-8 but Leven is, quite possibly, the better course.
It's interesting that Rich's list coincides far more with my own opinion on courses like Muirfield and Dornoch, perhaps we share some sort of puritanical desire to be tested which you don't?
Mark
I disagree completely. I can barely think of a few holes at Leven which aren't bog standard design. Sure, the holes in and of themselves are good enough I spose, but the course offers next to nothing in terms of inspirational design. CB has a small handful of quite unusual holes and others which are very bit as good as at at Leven. I don't know of the mundane holes you speak of between 9-13 (I think 11-13 are very good and 13 in particular excellent...this stretch of three holes is as good as anything at Leven), though I can think of a few I am not keen on. In any case, I will take the highs of CB over the so called steady consistency of Leven 7 days a week. Maybe you should see the course again. I recall after your last visit to North Berwick that you were much more impressed with the lesser holes than previously.
Ciao
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As the only(?) GCAer who's also a member of a Leven club, I'm only too painfully aware of its shortcomings! However, it's also my belief that the original pre-split layout would today be considered to be top ten Scotland easy. It's that good. Getting to play it once a year is beyond fabulous. What we have nowadays of course are two seriously flawed golf courses instead.
Leven, as a golf course on publicly owned land, suffers from a severe lack of investment and it's testament to the greenkeepers just how good it can be. Of course, that's also due to being built on pure, deep sand. There been some minor reshaping recently to improve visibility and playing qualities, so I've been observing very intently!
I also reckon it wouldn't take much to elevate it from its current Doak 4 to an easy 5, maybe even 6. That might involve a bit too much change for the membership who are lovely old reactionary Fifers in the main!
Leven is what it is. A simple, fun seaside course which caters for its market perfectly. Sure, there's room for improvement, but would it be worth the time/money/pain?
Come play it! Several GCA Folks have tried it and, I think, enjoyed it hugely. I doubt that was solely down to the scintillating company of their host..!
Love,
F.
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Martin,
its a shame the two clubs do not come to agreement to create a joint 36 hole club with the original course and a second made up of the 'newer' holes. Having said that I suspect this might be one of those quirks that make so many of our clubs so interesting and colourful.
Jon
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Martin,
its a shame the two clubs do not come to agreement to create a joint 36 hole club with the original course and a second made up of the 'newer' holes. Having said that I suspect this might be one of those quirks that make so many of our clubs so interesting and colourful.
Jon
Jon,
THREE clubs! Which of course is part of the issue...
Lundin being a bit of a mini St Andrews, also charges about twice what the Leven clubs do. None of which would be insurmountable. I might force Doak into writing a strongly worded letter!!!
Hmmmmmm......
Cheers,
M.
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Sean,
You're a hard judge if you think the use of the dunes on the first two holes at Leven is "bog standard" or if you think the greens on the older holes are "bog standard". Perhaps I was a bit hard on CB 13 (on the three occasions I have played it it has been into very strong wind, making it little more than a slog in which the burn needed to be avoided) but I'm struggling still to see much at CB outside of the brilliant 3-8.