Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tim_Weiman on January 22, 2015, 07:58:29 PM
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On another thread, Pat Mucci suggests that the 14th hole at Pine Valley is just too hard playing from the back tee at 215 yards. Hard to argue, at least I can't.
But, it got me to wondering: are there any other holes on courses generally held in high regard that are just too hard?
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5 at Merion when greens are 12 on the stimp
8 at Seminole from back tees
18 at Merion when the green is firm
2 on the C-9 at Huntingdon Valley according to some...
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18 at Merion when the green is firm
That was the first one I thought of, too.
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'Any hole that requires a 100 yard carry.'
This coming from the Senior Woman's champ at my club, she carries a 4 handicap.
But can the raw yardage cause a hole to be truly too hard?
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2 Wannamoisett
15 Bethpage Black
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delete
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I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?
Joe
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I have only played it once, but I think #9 at Butler National fits the bill. Long par four, with trees overhanging the fairway. I missed the fairway by a foot and did not have a shot at the green. Overly penal, I thought.
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I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?
Joe
If it's too hard, because of a stinking pond, then it's too hard for match play. Usually holes aren't to hard for match play, but when they take away the recovery shot, it stinks.
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Playing 18 at Oakland Hills as a par 4 seems pretty tough to me (or if Mickelson is your Ryder Cup foursomes partner).
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I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?
Joe
Joe,
I guess I wasn't thinking about the match play issue. Just wondered what holes people would suggest and when we summed it all up how "too hard" would be defined.
For me, one hole comes from the Ocean Course at Kiawah - #13 if I remember correctly. But, only from the crazy back tees, especially with some wind.
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#5 on Pinehurst #2 has always killed me.
#1 at Oakmont. Toughest opening hole I've ever seen, followed closely by #1 at Winged Foot West
#11 at ANGC
I agree with #'s 5 and 18 at Merion. Add 17 at Merion
#5 at Pine Valley
Hell, I could named hundreds that are too hard for me.
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I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?
Joe
Joe, easy for you to ask, since you can make a par just about any time you want, and if you're playing to make no worse than bogey you've got the skill to do that just about every time out. So if you're asking whether a golf hole can be too hard (in stroke play) and at the same time NOT too hard in match play (where "par" is not as significant), I'd say that for YOU the answer is "yes". But I'd also suggest that for ME the answer is probably "no". On a relatively easy golf hole, I can if I choose "play smart" and secure no worse than a bogey most of the time; but on any hole that anyone would describe as "too hard", no manner of psychological tricks (like pretending it's match play) and no amount of "playing smart" is going to make that hole "less hard" for me, or make it any more likely that I'll secure no worse than a bogey (or even somehow find a way to win the hole). Speaking as just one average hack, for me that's where the architect's talent and skill and belief system and imagination REALLY come to the fore, i.e. in his/her ability to make a lovely and flowing and natural looking golf course play "hard", but not "too hard".
Peter
Man, I wish we could get together again one day to play another few rounds of golf!
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#2 at Isleworth from the back two tees is the hardest 3 I've ever played.
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I don't think individual holes can be too hard, but courses can be too hard.
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"Foxy," #14 at Royal Dornoch. It only took me 250+ rounds there to make 4 for the 1st time. ;)
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I don't think individual holes can be too hard, but courses can be too hard.
Mike,
I would venture to say you didn't say exactly what you meant. That is, any architect could build a hole that was simply excessively penal: imagine Pete Dye didn't build the 17th at the TPC to play from 130 yards, but from 230 with the green one third the size.
What would be the point? That would be crazy. That would be "too hard".
So, if you follow my logic, did you mean to say that golf architects may have occasionally pushed the envelope, but really didn't build holes that were "too hard"?
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Peter,
We'll get our chances. I'll promise that right here and now.
David Tepper,
I'm hitting the "no sympathy" button on my computer. 250+ rounds at RD....envy abounds!
Joe
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#5 on Pinehurst #2 has always killed me.
It is now being played as a par five. Continues to instill fear but sure feels great to par it.
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#2 at Isleworth from the back two tees is the hardest 3 I've ever played.
With those goal,post trees? I was rather underwhelmed by Isleworth the one time I played there.
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Tim,
Good subject.
# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.
The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.
The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.
You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.
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Pat and others,
A question I have longed to ask: Can a singular hole be both 'hard' (resulting in triples and north, if that is the definition of 'hard') and be strategic?
I would guess that a 'hard' holes REQUIRES a particular shot, and if not executed then there would be corresponding punishment.
thus, I ask how exactly does one define a 'hard' hole?
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Two brutally difficult holes at Bandon Dunes Resort:
#10 at Old Macdonald
#14 at Bandon Trails
My Dad played Foxy once, at the age of 71, and made a 4. Bounced his chip shot off the front slope to a front pin and made an 8-footer for par.
On the same trip, the "Long" hole at Carnoustie seemed too hard, as we played it directly into a 45 mph gale. I two-putted for an 11.
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Pat Mucci,
I agree with your explanation.
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Charlie,
I think you have to establish several categories for evaluative purposes.
How hard is it to make birdie ?
How hard is it to make par ?
How easy is it to make bogey
How easy is it to make double ?
How easy is it to make triple or higher ?
Then I think you have to answer those questions and come to a consensus on the degree of difficulty
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so a 'hard' hole is undefinable, but saying #14 at PV is hard answers the question. Why is #14 at PV hard? is it an easy double, but a hard triple?
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:-[
#18 at Stone Harbor GC
Yikes and its windy
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so a 'hard' hole is undefinable, but saying #14 at PV is hard answers the question.
Why is #14 at PV hard? is it an easy double, but a hard triple?
Charlie,
No, it's an easy double and an easier triple or higher.
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Number 3 at pasa. I love the hole but if I had to play it in a stroke play event no way.
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so a 'hard' hole is undefinable, but saying #14 at PV is hard answers the question. Why is #14 at PV hard? is it an easy double, but a hard triple?
Charlie,
I don't think a "too hard" hole is undefinable, but as Pat suggests, you have to ask several questions before reaching a consensus.
For example, I really can't consider #5 at Pinehurst too hard because I found making bogey wasn't that difficult.
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"you have to ask several questions before reaching a consensus.
For example, I really can't consider #5 at Pinehurst too hard because I found making bogey wasn't that difficult." - Tim
that's not a question, that is a example of you experience.
This seems like a good topic, but providing this or that hole as an example of a 'too hard' hole doesn't begin to quantify what exactly makes a hole 'too hard.' Without having to engage the hole's relation to par, it would seem to me that a 'too hard' hole requires a specific shot to be played and presents no other options.
I will just sit back and read a bunch of submits of 'too hard' holes without an explanations. Guys, what makes a hole too hard? And if the only answers are tied to its relationship to par, then aren't we missing the point?
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#2 at Kingsley. Doesn't matter which tee you play...it's just hard. The times I've played there my hcp has been anywhere from 1 to 3. Have never hit the green, nor parred it. Miss the green in a green side bunker right or left and good luck getting it anywhere on the green. Hard hole.
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The 10th hole at Old Macdonald is very difficult for a couple of reasons. There's a big difference between the back tee and regular tee. It plays between 380 and 465 yards long, downwind in the summer and into the wind in winter. It has a wide fairway, but there are bunkers left, right and center in the fairway, and for me, carrying the bunkers to have a mid-to-short iron approach is impossible most of the time. The percentage play is to aim at the right bunker, and hope for a 200-225 yard, blind uphill shot over a ridge to a green perched on a dune, where virtually all balls short of the green fall right into a deep depression 10-12 feet below the green surface.
Then you have a steeply uphill short shot off a tight lie. If you are tentative at all with a putter, or stub a chip shot, the ball comes back to your feet. Almost impossible to par, bogey is solid, double bogey is common, but triple bogey is a rarity.
The 14th hole at Bandon Trails has been discussed many times here. It is 325 yards long and way downhill. It often plays a bit downwind, so it's tempting to try and drive the green. But the green is quite small, and once again perched 4-6 feet above the surrounding short grass areas. Also, there is a deep bunker guarding the green on the right. Here's a picture, which I pulled from the BreakingEighty.com website:
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/Bandon-Trails-Hole-14_zpsa9bfa865.jpg) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/johnmkirk/media/Bandon-Trails-Hole-14_zpsa9bfa865.jpg.html)
It's much harder than it looks. The green is so exacting; you make a little mistake, or get a little greedy, and before you know it, you've made a 7 or 8. It's easy to pull your drive into the woods left. Your best hope is to have a full, uphill wedge into the green for your second shot. It just kills me.
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JK - what happenes on that hole if you hit a 225 shot at the left free side bunker?
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Well, a 200-220 yard shot aimed at the bunker would stay up on the high shelf, and leave a reasonably easy, about level, wedge shot. It's so far downhill that a 220 yard shot will travel 240-250, if there's no wind. But if you push it right a bit, it falls way down the hill and leaves a frightening 80-100 yard shot that plays about one club uphill.
I've played the hole maybe 25 times, usually with just one other person, and you almost never see anybody laid up at wedge distance on the high shelf. It's hard to keep it up there. Also, pull your tee shot 10 yards on that line and you might lose your ball. 20 yards left and it's gone.
With that said, when I played there with my friend Dustin Schmidt, a former pro, he just kills the hole. He drove it close and got up and down both times for a 3.
The hole yields a very wide range of scores. Birdie is possible, but even good players have trouble just finishing the hole sometimes. A real oddball.
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Tim,
Good subject.
# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.
The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.
The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.
You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.
I agree with you, Patrick, and I generally dislike holes of this type. I've seen photos of the 14th hole at Pine Valley, and it would be hard to dislike something so beautiful.
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Tim,
Good subject.
# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.
The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.
The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.
You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.
I agree with you, Patrick, and I generally dislike holes of this type. I've seen photos of the 14th hole at Pine Valley, and it would be hard to dislike something so beautiful.
John,
Yes, PV #14 is beautiful but it is also very clear you better find the green with your tee shot. Pass/fail as Patrick said. Keep in mind that the shot comes immediately after the approach to #13, which is very different - one has a conservative option.
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Like Mike N, I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it. It's only the dominance of the concept of par that makes us think in these terms. But in reality, golf is played in a number of ways - against one or more other players, whether at stroke play, matchplay or some other format, on one's own in an attempt to shoot the lowest possible score (i.e., effectively 'playing yourself' over a period of time) or just for the fun of it with no focus on score.
If the game is competitive in any sense of the word, then the hole is the same for everyone who plays it, changes in weather and ground conditions apart. How can something be too difficult if it is the same for everyone? If it's a hard four, most will make five, and my five will not lose me much ground against the field, while your four will gain you ground. And if you are genuinely only playing for shits and giggles then you don't care about score.
So really I think the only holes that can possibly be called too hard are those that have ball eating hazards and effectively guarantee that a large proportion of those who play it will lose numerous balls. Which I think we can also largely dismiss as bad holes!
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Isn't everyone's definition of "hard" different, based on handicaps and strengths/weaknesses in each' game (length, straight, short game, etc.)?
For me if I can't make an 8 or better on a hole most of the time I'd say it's too hard. But I can't think of many where I couldn't do that; I'd be bored out of my mind but I bet I could do it.
Note at my course I make as many 8s on par 3s as the par 5s...water water everywhere.
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"...I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it."
Si.
More often it is the case where holes are hard, but dull...this is probably the worst sort of hole.
Ciao
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10 at Butler. Water just off the left side of the landing zone. Bunker on the right. Ravine all the way across the front.
I played the course over a hundred times as a kid and never parred the hole. Butler is filled with tough holes but it is really hard not to lose a ball there. That is my definition of too hard.
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See the various Ballyhack threads a couple of months back. Holes 1, 3, 4, 5, 11, 12 & 14 are total brutes.
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Like Mike N, I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it. It's only the dominance of the concept of par that makes us think in these terms. But in reality, golf is played in a number of ways - against one or more other players, whether at stroke play, matchplay or some other format, on one's own in an attempt to shoot the lowest possible score (i.e., effectively 'playing yourself' over a period of time) or just for the fun of it with no focus on score.
If the game is competitive in any sense of the word, then the hole is the same for everyone who plays it, changes in weather and ground conditions apart. How can something be too difficult if it is the same for everyone? If it's a hard four, most will make five, and my five will not lose me much ground against the field, while your four will gain you ground. And if you are genuinely only playing for shits and giggles then you don't care about score.
So really I think the only holes that can possibly be called too hard are those that have ball eating hazards and effectively guarantee that a large proportion of those who play it will lose numerous balls. Which I think we can also largely dismiss as bad holes!
Adam,
As Sean suggests, I think your definition is a good one. Don't think I ever lost a ball on #9 at Ballybunion, but it was always difficult for me to par.
Difficult to par, but not "too hard".
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Tim
I think its more of a problem having too many difficult holes on a course rather than holes which are too hard.
Ciao
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Tim,
Good subject.
# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.
The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.
The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.
You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.
Pat nailed it here. As I was reading through the thread I was thinking along these lines prior to getting down to this entry. The pass-fail type of hole where it is just hit and hope with no options can make a hole play too hard and generally not be fun over multiple rounds.
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Tim
I've never played or seen Pine Valley, but from what I know, all the 14th requires from the back tees is to be able to carry ~200 yards over water, fairly straight, and then (if you miss the green, which 95+% of all golfers, including Mucci, will do most of the time) hit a decent sand wedge from the fronting and surrounding bunker and then get a 3 or 4 or 5, depending on how well you are wedging and putting on the day. That sounds like a hard hole, but not in any way "too" hard.
My guess is that even a reasonably competent golfer (single figures) will be happy with a bogey on such a hole (just as a reasonably competent golfer will be happy with a 5 on the 14th at Dornoch). I know a lot about the latter, having played it hundreds of times, over 37 years, and a 4 is a gift and a 3 a once every decade result on that hole. A 6 is possible, even for the best of players, but anything above that is just the result of several poor shots and or mental breakdown.
The only example of "too hard" for me would be a hole where at some point it was impossible to make a carry without a bailout option, short or to the right or to the left. I cant think of any hole on any course I have played that meets that definition.
Rich
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Someone else mentioned it but #10 at Butler National is very,very difficult. Water on the inside of the dogleg on the drive - carry over water to an elevated, shallow green on the approach. I know I nearly lost two balls on the hole.
#7 at Butler is really hard as well. Come to think of it, #18 is also extremely difficult. Those are probably the 3 holes that stand out to me on a really difficult course.
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If the game is competitive in any sense of the word, then the hole is the same for everyone who plays it, changes in weather and ground conditions apart. How can something be too difficult if it is the same for everyone? If it's a hard four, most will make five, and my five will not lose me much ground against the field, while your four will gain you ground. And if you are genuinely only playing for shits and giggles then you don't care about score.
So really I think the only holes that can possibly be called too hard are those that have ball eating hazards and effectively guarantee that a large proportion of those who play it will lose numerous balls. Which I think we can also largely dismiss as bad holes!
Peter says something similar above. A hole is "hard" compared to what? If you are playing solely against par, then some holes can be too hard, in the sense that the scorecard par is not realistic. You post a big number, frustration and unhappiness ensue, etc. (But I thought par didn't matter!? ;))
If you are playing against a field or in a match, everyone is dealing with the same problems. In those cases, a hole's difficulty becomes irrelevant. The issue is whether you can deal with its difficulties better than your competitors can.
The problem with holes that are too hard is less about the high scores they often generate. The problem is that they are usually less fun and interesting to play. Which is why, for example, I always found the 14th at PV to be such an anomaly.
Bob
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And yet many are considered among the very best in golf.
I think perspective on these holes is very important when you play them.
Half of them offer an alternative way to play for par that many strong players won't take.
Perseverance is part of the game too.
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I agree with Mike N, often saying there is nothing wrong with a hard hole once in a while. Too often, and a course would be no fun to play, but once per course, or per nine, I think most golfers like challenging the difficult hole. And, they like one or two holes to talk about in the bar afterwards......and they usually talk about their birdies, and when about holes, its either hard, beautiful or unusual they talk about, depending on their golf personality.
To me, conceptually, a shot can be too hard, like, BT 14, if the target zones just can't be hit with a slightly above average shot from a good player, there is no real bail out (or as Ian says, alternate strategy for par) to offer a reasonable chance at bogey, and the penalty is typically repetitive strokes, which is the case from way below the hole at BT 14. (from my one play and others experience)
A hole can be too hard if it contains hard tee shot, hard approach, and hard putting. It seems as if conceptually, there should be some reward for a tee shot that hits a narrow fw, or the right part of a wide one, if it has a great hazard. Otherwise, where is the strategy?
And, if you have a hole with hard tee shot and approach (say to a small green) then there surely ought to be an easier putt as some kind of reward, rather than just another beat down.
A lot of things affect "too hard" but a lot of it is target size, relative to length, wind, etc. As to one hole that I recall thinking was way too tough, PV No. 5 came quickly too mind - FW wood or ling iron to a perched green with fall away to slice side and bunker right where you might land short to get on green? I know I didn't have a shot to play it.....
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Tim
I think its more of a problem having too many difficult holes on a course rather than holes which are too hard.
Ciao
Sean,
I understand the difference. However, I started the thread to discuss the concept of an indivual hole being "too hard".
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From personal experience, #15 at Canterbury was "too hard" for me. I think I picked up both rounds this year at the Mashie after finally making it to the green.
I was told that staff hits approaches to the green for the women during women's events, which likely means that the hole is "too hard".
Do I think the hole is bad? Not at all. It's just gone into my "nemesis holes" file, and I look forward to getting back there someday and finishing that hole.
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From personal experience, #15 at Canterbury was "too hard" for me. I think I picked up both rounds this year at the Mashie after finally making it to the green.
I was told that staff hits approaches to the green for the women during women's events, which likely means that the hole is "too hard".
Do I think the hole is bad? Not at all. It's just gone into my "nemesis holes" file, and I look forward to getting back there someday and finishing that hole.
Russ,
I will have to think about the women's event issue. But, that aside, I am familiar with #15 at Canterbury and have played it a few times. Can you describe why you think it is "too hard"?
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"you have to ask several questions before reaching a consensus.
For example, I really can't consider #5 at Pinehurst too hard because I found making bogey wasn't that difficult." - Tim
that's not a question, that is a example of you experience.
This seems like a good topic, but providing this or that hole as an example of a 'too hard' hole doesn't begin to quantify what exactly makes a hole 'too hard.' Without having to engage the hole's relation to par, it would seem to me that a 'too hard' hole requires a specific shot to be played and presents no other options.
I will just sit back and read a bunch of submits of 'too hard' holes without an explanations. Guys, what makes a hole too hard? And if the only answers are tied to its relationship to par, then aren't we missing the point?
Charlie,
I agree with your approach. The task is to arrive at a definition of "too hard" and not to simply share experiences on holes that most would agree are hard, if not too hard. But, I do think it makes sense to propose specific holes and I am also not against the idea of "too hard" being a comparison to par.
Jeff Brauer brought up the example of #5 at Pine Valley. Good hole to debate. Very challenging to play in regulation, to hit the green and two putt. Disaster is lurking, that's for sure.
But, I see the hole a bit like #16 at Cypress Point: there is a bailout. The bailout is to hit less club and land short of the green in an area more generous than the green itself, I believe. From my perspective, this makes the hole still hard or very hard, but not "too hard".
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Three ways a hole can be too hard:
1. The hole is often difficult to complete for a score.
2. The hole is so difficult as to be unenjoyable, and demoralizes the golfer.
3. The score on that hole becomes overly important to the player's total score.
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I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?
Joe
If it's too hard, because of a stinking pond, then it's too hard for match play. Usually holes aren't to hard for match play, but when they take away the recovery shot, it stinks.
Yes, but a low screamer gets you in one of the traps for an easy up and down
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#2 at Isleworth from the back two tees is the hardest 3 I've ever played.
With those goal,post trees? I was rather underwhelmed by Isleworth the one time I played there.
Yep, the hardest hole I've ever played.
(http://linksnation.com/site/images/stories/1-par3-2nd%20at%20isleworth.jpg)
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From personal experience, #15 at Canterbury was "too hard" for me. I think I picked up both rounds this year at the Mashie after finally making it to the green.
I was told that staff hits approaches to the green for the women during women's events, which likely means that the hole is "too hard".
Do I think the hole is bad? Not at all. It's just gone into my "nemesis holes" file, and I look forward to getting back there someday and finishing that hole.
Russ,
I will have to think about the women's event issue. But, that aside, I am familiar with #15 at Canterbury and have played it a few times. Can you describe why you think it is "too hard"?
Tim, I guess I was implicitly stating that what makes a hole "too hard" could depend on your skill level, age, experience, etc., and although 15 was "too hard" for me, it still doesn't mean that I don't want to go back and try again until it is no longer "too hard".
But if you're asking literally why I think it was too hard, it's pretty simple: It required elevating the ball quite high from quite far away (relatively speaking), likely from a downhill lie or a lie in the rough. If you failed the approach, your ball was either in the creek for a penalty, or in the high grass on the side of the hill where you are lucky to find it. I walked off the hole both times frustrated and mumbling.
I fully realize my skill as a golfer is to blame, which was confirmed when I asked other players if they struggled with the hole or if they thought it was too hard, and no one seemed to have as much trouble as I did. So, again, I believe "too hard" is likely very personal.
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4th Rye
4th Sandwich
Postage Stamp
Road Hole
7th Inverness
17th Flossmoor
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Russ,
Actually, I wouldn't say your description of what makes #15 at Canterbury is "very personal" for the simple reason that the ability of a hole to accommodate various handicap levels has to be part of the discussion.
Along those lines, there is no doubt that the second shot on this hole is very, very hard if one is trying to play from rough and/or a downhill lie.
I'm not ready to declare the hole "too hard", but it is certainly a candidate for the discussion.
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Difficulty is subjective. A few holes that I have found very difficult and possibly too much so:
18 at Barona Creek in the afternoon. The wind makes the hole that is already very challenging almost over the top.
16 at Spyglass. A tree in the middle of the fw on a long par 4 is just....dumb.
11th at Quarry Pines in Tucson. If you've played it, you know. Easily that hardest par 3 I've played. The link below showcases the green in the background. Tee is to the right.
http://www.playthepines.com/
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David Stamm,
I agree that #16 at Spyglass, especially playing it in the days of persimmon and balata. You certainly had to be very good to hit that green in regulation. However, it really isn't that hard a hole if one accepts bogey as a probable and acceptable outcome.
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JK - what happenes on that hole if you hit a 225 shot at the left free side bunker?
A 23 handicapper at the time makes par from the bunker. ;D
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"...I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it."
Si.
More often it is the case where holes are hard, but dull...this is probably the worst sort of hole.
Ciao
In other words, holes that are just hard because they are long or have long forced carries are the worst sort of hole.
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I am not too sure about the idea that a hole is too hard because it is a par 4 when it should be a par 5. That is just a par 4 that a lot of players can't reach in regulation. A hole that is too hard is one where a player can't find a way to play it, even conservatively.
The 18th at The Belfry is too hard to many players because they simply can't make the carry over water for the tee shot (or the approach over more water to the green).
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IMO where the hole comes in the round is important. Early on, especially the first and a really hard hole can just ruin a round from the start and prevent much ensuing enjoyment. Late on say 17 or 18 and it can enhance the overall experience due to the anticipation/trepidation but if the round has already capitulated then you're not going to worry about it anyway.
So 17 or 18 at Sawgrass is ok but if it's located 1 or 2 = not ok.
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I am going to nominate #9 at The Kingsley Club because it's such a difficult green to hit and hold.
Per the Mucci scale:
How hard is it to make birdie ? Very very hard. Requires an exceptional tee shot on the correct 1/3 of the green and a good putt, or a very good tee shot (on the green or just off, and a great putt or chip).
How hard is it to make par ? Very hard. Same scenarios as above, but with 2 putts or a chip and a putt.
How easy is it to make bogey? Not easy if you miss the green. there are a lot of very difficult lies just off the green (deep sand traps and fairly tall rough combined with a small green to hit and hold
How easy is it to make double ? Fairly easy if your 2nd shot does not make it on or stay on the green.
How easy is it to make triple or higher ? Definitely possible if your lies are difficult. Picking-up is a real possibility.
That said, it is a tantalizing hole and green. But I think it would be a better hole if the green was 35% larger.
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It really comes down to holes where there is a "can't" involved. Can't possibly hit it over, can't possibly hit it through, can't possibly hold it near the hole. The first is the true offender as it involves human physical limitation.
If you can't physically clear a hazard or massive pit of marram or trees, that leaves the player either stuck or dropping at a drop area, which many times makes a hole too easy.
The second is a little easier--most everyone can exhibit control to hit a really straight shot, even if only sometimes.
The third can usually just be fixed by changing maintenance practice. There is no doubt things can be designed or built too hard, but more often its that speeds are just out of control.
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Per the Mucci scale:
How hard is it to make birdie ? Very very hard. Requires an exceptional tee shot on the correct 1/3 of the green and a good putt, or a very good tee shot (on the green or just off, and a great putt or chip).
How hard is it to make par ? Very hard. Same scenarios as above, but with 2 putts or a chip and a putt.
How easy is it to make bogey? Not easy if you miss the green. there are a lot of very difficult lies just off the green (deep sand traps and fairly tall rough combined with a small green to hit and hold
How easy is it to make double ? Fairly easy if your 2nd shot does not make it on or stay on the green.
How easy is it to make triple or higher ? Definitely possible if your lies are difficult. Picking-up is a real possibility.
I've been thinking about this question for a few days Tim and haven't come to a very definitive answer or example from the courses I've played.
I don't think the conceptual answer can be arrived at in anecdotal narrative terms or naming a specific hole by an individual player due to all the variables of one person's skill set to play a specific hole. I also tend to think like Nuzzo that it isn't about too hard of a hole, but too hard of a course where design is torturous.
So, I think it is down to statistics to evaluate if a hole is too hard. I add to that the likely result of playing the hole as SICBIP. I think you need to evaluate if it is too hard by a large sampling of players over time to arrive at what the score average is in relation to each player's handicap. Thus, we have to assume the hole being evaluated as too hard is the #1 rated hardest on the card, then look at the stats over a season and compare it to the score with handicap of all those players. I would use the cut off of 20 handicappers to add a certain percentage of players that even get 2 shots on the #1 rated hole. Thus, if it is #1 rated hole, and all these players for the season are plus handi's to 20 handi's, and the hole over that period plays more than 1.75 -2 strokes over the handi cap, in my mind that would be a hole with whatever variable of quirks, design obstacles and flaws that make it "too hard". Any hole deemed too hard by those criteria is simply a poorly designed hole, IMO. Add the element that the highly possible outcome for a match play competitor is ball-in-pocket, and the concept of bad design is a key element of 'too hard'.
That is all I can come up with... I'm not sure if I ever played a hole so much a "too hard" via those terms.
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4th Rye
4th Sandwich
Postage Stamp
Road Hole
??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Ciao
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How much of a pass fail is #14 really? It's essentially an island...but the island is much larger than just the green. You really have to work to get to 6 on this hole...hit one in the water and you drop it 75 yards away and wedge it on two putt for double!?! One decent shot and you make 3 or 4.
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Chris Demarco on his radio show basically said the 18th at Doral was too hard even for the tour pro. He pointed out that the water carry off the tee is over 325 to a landing area 18 yards wide in often windy conditions.
I found the backside of Carnoustie maddening, especially 14, spectacles. The 12th was also particularly brutish.
15th at Bethpage, Corral, was extreme on the difficulty scale.
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Dick Daley,
Thanks for your thoughtful input. I really started the thread to ask a question. I didn't have an answer in mind and I am not sure I have played a hole that is "too hard", even the example of #14 at Pine Valley which I last played about twenty years ago as, I think, about a 12 HCP. The yardage on that occasion was about 170. I debated clubs and think I went with a 7 iron thinking the hole would play more like 150-160 due to elevation. The main thing was to just not be intimidated - a common feature of holes at Pine Valley - and just hit a shot I was capable of hitting. And I did, making a par I think.
Now, that wasn't 215 yards, of course. Therein, lies part of the problem coming up with a definition. The hole is pass/fail like Pat suggests, but ?I could pass as a 12 from 170 yards. So, maybe it is the 215 yard tee that is "too hard", not the hole.
As for the question of one golf hole verses an entire course, I'm still inclined to think those are two different things. Both face a definition problem.
By the way, I agree with your suggestion of a cut off at 20 HCP as someone who experienced playing Pine Valley with a 36 guy. It was brutal for both the group and the caddy. The amazing thing was the caddy politely avoided picking up a ball until #18 just because the guy was a guest of Club Chairman Ernie Ransome.
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That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?
430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.
I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...
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The postage stamp Sean!
If a 71 year old can play it in 3 shots over 2 rounds and in The Open; it can't be that tough?
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That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?
430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.
I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...
Tsk, tsk, tsk! Stereotypes, stereotypes, stereotypes. There are bazillions of golfers with handicaps over 30 that have no problem with that carry.
I shudder to think how short hitting single digit handicap golfers play that how without putting down cartpaths...
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What if these too hard holes are the inverse of the driveable par 4s? My example, Butler 10. Hit a 7 iron off the tee, be well short of the hazards on both sides. The hole is about 380. Then hit an 8. Then hit a wedge.
Is it really an easy par 5 in disguise?
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Hi,
From noted or otherwise esteemed courses...?
Fisher's Biarritz #5 - Terrifying on it's own... mishit, pull, push, slice or hook and triple 6 is the number...put a bit of Atlantic sound wind in there and you've got a ballgame.
Yale #18 - I like the uniqueness of the hole, and if you do make it through the first two shots, you probably can settle on bogey 6 in most cases, but if you don't...
Bethpage B 15 - with the OB right and the rough left...along with the severity of the green and the uphill...it's just too much for most...then again, I watched Daly go in with a lazy PW in 2002 (played 459 that day)...I've only hit the green with a 3 iron or 4 wood in like a dozen playings.
cheers
vk
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18 at Butler
9 at Butler
10 at Butler
5 at Butler
2 at Chicago Golf
17 at Beverly
14 at OFCC North
13 at Medinah 3
8 at Prairie Dunes
18 Whistling Straits
11 at Plainfield
1 at Crystal Downs
10 at Crystal Downs
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How much of a pass fail is #14 really? It's essentially an island...but the island is much larger than just the green. You really have to work to get to 6 on this hole...hit one in the water and you drop it 75 yards away and wedge it on two putt for double!?! One decent shot and you make 3 or 4.
The fact that Pine Valley had to inject a "drop area" is indicative of how hard the 14th hole is.
I believe it's the only drop area on the golf course.
In 50 years of playing Pine Valley I've never used the drop area despite hitting many balls into the water.
Drop areas are for those who surrender themselves to the difficulty of the hole.
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Tim
I've never played or seen Pine Valley, but from what I know, all the 14th requires from the back tees is to be able to carry ~200 yards over water, fairly straight, and then (if you miss the green, which 95+% of all golfers, including Mucci, will do most of the time) hit a decent sand wedge from the fronting and surrounding bunker and then get a 3 or 4 or 5, depending on how well you are wedging and putting on the day.
That sounds like a hard hole, but not in any way "too" hard.
That's because there is NO fronting bunker.
That's a beach, that's moist most of the time.
As to the back bunker, which is about 240 from the back tee, few rarely get the ball back that far and if they do, that bunker is incredibly narrow with the golfer hitting back toward the fronting water.
If you ever get the chance to play PV and you play from the back tee, the betting window will be open for 5's, 6's, 7's, 8's and higher, provided you don't concede defeat and use the drop area.
I think experience will trump conjecture.
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Pat,
You know Pine Valley better than I do, but regarding #14 my assumption always was you better hit the green or real bad things can happen. Maybe that is just not as obvious as a pure island green.
J chi sham,
Curious why you think #10 at Crystal Downs is too hard. Is it all about the green?
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I know that the objective is to look at individual holes, but I do really feel like context matters here. Take the par-3 3rd at Myopia. Brutally long in the neighborhood of 260. Small green, especially relative to its length. Long is dead. Right is likely dead. Left is bunkered. And short is in the deep crossbunker, making the carry over 200 yards. Tough, tough hole. Birdie is virtually impossible without chipping in or making a long putt. Par is difficult. Bogey isn't guaranteed. And others are very much in play.
Too hard? Arguably, but it didn't feel that way after playing the short par 4 1st and the short par 5 second. Rather, it felt fair. But put that same hole at the end of a stretch of 470 yard par 4s and 600 yard par 5s and maybe it feels a little different.
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That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?
430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.
I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...
Tsk, tsk, tsk! Stereotypes, stereotypes, stereotypes. There are bazillions of golfers with handicaps over 30 that have no problem with that carry.
I shudder to think how short hitting single digit handicap golfers play that how without putting down cartpaths...
Fine, I should have added "without losing a ball." Or, "without having better than a 1/4 chance of pulling off the shot."
I didn't know the 20-handicap was a protected class!
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Brad,
I didn't know the 20 handicap was a protected class either. But, it does feel like the definition of "too hard" has to address handicap somehow. Equally, I think there has to be a cut off at some point. #17 at the TPC is "too hard" for the 36 guy, but given its length and the size of the green, I would not say it is "too hard" overall.
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Pat,
You know Pine Valley better than I do, but regarding #14 my assumption always was you better hit the green or real bad things can happen.
I had a "Tin Cup" experience there a few years ago when I walked off the 13th green 1 under and walked of the 14th green 9 or 10 over.
And, I didn't hit that many bad shots, just marginal shots that didn't end up well.
The following year, I walked off # 13 1 under and was lucky to walk off # 14 only 1 over.
And the further back you go, the higher the tee and the more exposure to the wind.
Maybe that is just not as obvious as a pure island green.
J chi sham,
Curious why you think #10 at Crystal Downs is too hard. Is it all about the green?
Never played it.
I'm waiting for my invite from Tom Doak
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Jack C and Mark C,
I have to respectfully disagree with your inclusions of the 17th holes at Beverly and Flossmoor. Difficult holes for sure, but TOO hard? Just my opinion, but "too hard" holes are holes where doubles (or higher) or the pocket are relatively commonplace for anyone - OR - there is an aspect of the hole that renders it borderline unplayable.
Let's start with Beverly's 17th. The length, wind exposure, pitch and slope of the green, and flag high or long recoveries provide plenty of difficulty. All provide more than adequate challenge, but none of the above should cause you to completely butcher the hole or not finish. There is also a very conservative approach to the hole in playing your tee shot short or short left of the green which leaves a reasonable opportunity for par and a likely bogey, provided you don't blast your pitch 15 ft. above the hole. Very hard par 3, yes...too hard, not from my POV.
Now, Flossmoor's 17th. Very stout par 4, but by lowering expectations and playing it as a 4.5 or 5 it is certainly manageable. There are no lost ball opportunities. There is the creek crossing the fairway, but that should be easily negotiated unless the hole is playing into the wind and the tee shot is a complete foozle (thank you, Sir Bob Huntley). I grant you, the long approach shot, staring at that near vertical hill is uber-intimidating. However, if you don't make it up you are left with a wedge of some sort to one of the tamer greens on the course. Actually, if you've hit a good drive, and the wind conditions aren't horrid, it could be a wise play to take the slope out of the equation and play well over the green. There is plenty of room and the resulting pitch would be very straight forward. As previously stated, once on or around the green it is one of the least challenging on the course. Personally, I struggle more with the 12th hole, but that is due in large part to the occasional loose tee shot. On 17, you can hit your drive almost anywhere and still have a reasonable chance at a 5. Very, very hard par 4...too hard, not from my POV
Obviously, if I am fortunate enough to play either of these courses again I will skip the 17th holes as karma surely has a bloodbath in store for moi...
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Hi,
TW, I agree to an extent, but under the terms of Pat's basic definition, it fits most golfers...AND I see the best players in the world make 5s as much as birdies every year.
Their "tournament" pressure is my "normal game" when confronted with a hole like that... I'm glad it's been done; it probably could be repeated a bit more often with a lot of amusement for all sorts of golfers, but if golf continued in that way, I probably wouldn't have played any new courses in the last 35 years...and/or given it up altogether.
Let me be even more strident...there's just a handful of female club golfer with a ladies hcp of 12 or higher who could actually finish that hole, even if their life depended on it...even if the ladies tee is like 80 yards, there's a great many such female golfers who would be hitting a rescue, utility or 5-wood from even that generous of a forward tee.
so if TOO hard extends to all the female golfing population too, that is like the hardest hole in america.
cheers
vk
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VK,
Are you referring to #15 at Canterbury?
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Hi TW,
No, 17 at Sawgrass... I'm not familiar with Canterbury...
cheers
vk
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Jack C and Mark C,
I have to respectfully disagree with your inclusions of the 17th holes at Beverly and Flossmoor. Difficult holes for sure, but TOO hard? Just my opinion, but "too hard" holes are holes where doubles (or higher) or the pocket are real possibilities for anyone.
Let's start with Beverly's 17th. The length, wind exposure, pitch and slope of the green, and flag high or long recoveries provide plenty of difficulty. All provide more than adequate challenge, but none of the above should cause you to completely butcher the hole or not finish. There is also a very conservative approach to the hole in playing your tee shot short or short left of the green which leaves a reasonable opportunity for par and a likely bogey, provided you don't blast your pitch 15 ft. above the hole. Very hard par 3, yes...too hard, not from my POV.
Now, Flossmoor's 17th. Very stout par 4, but by lowering expectations and playing it as a 4.5 or 5 it is certainly manageable. There are no lost ball opportunities. There is the creek crossing the fairway, but that should be easily negotiated unless the hole is playing into the wind and the tee shot is a complete foozle (thank you, Sir Bob Huntley). I grant you, the long approach shot, staring at that near vertical hill is uber-intimidating. However, if you don't make it up you are left with a wedge of some sort to one of the tamer greens on the course. Actually, if you've hit a good drive, and the wind conditions aren't horrid, it could be a wise play to take the slope out of the equation and play well over the green. There is plenty of room and the resulting pitch would be very straight forward. As previously stated, once on or around the green it is one of the least challenging on the course. Personally, I struggle more with the 12th hole, but that is due in large part to the occasional loose tee shot. On 17, you can hit your drive almost anywhere and still have a reasonable chance at a 5. Very, very hard par 4...too hard, not from my POV
Obviously, if I am fortunate enough to play either of these courses again I will skip the 17th holes as karma surely has a bloodbath in store for moi...
Matt, I have witnessed too many 4 putts at Beverly on 17. Some during the Western Am this past August. The severity of the green was not designed for current green speeds. I can count on one hand the number of tee shots that hit and hold the green each summer- especially from the right tee box at 227 yds. No doubt there are harder holes out there but for me it's the hardest on the course relative to par. Not sure if I've ever birdied it since my first round there in 1977. A par there this year might have produced a different Western Am champ, instead it was ball in pocket , game over double bogey. Can't think of a harder par 3 in Chicago without water.
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Keeping it close to home again.
#2 at Noordwijkse from the back tees.
547M (598 yds) - drive from high in the dunes into a cross wind, often very hard to a narrowish landing zone. Extremely tough drive. 2nd shot will be hybrid or 3 wood uphill to a narrow fairway in-between dunes. Leaving it short of the plateau which is often the case leaves a long blind approach into a tricky narrow raised two tiered green with trouble around it. In the summer when the rough is high and the wind is up one of the toughest holes I've ever played. Playing it safe for bogey even requires exacting shots as you have to hit the fairway off the tee. Even if you for example hit a 3 wood off the tee and then two irons to get up to the plateau you still have a tough shot with anywhere from a w-7 into the wind into the green. Just no easy way to do it but you could also argue if your not a solid 5 hcp or lower you have no logical explanation for being on those tees.
#4 at Noordwijkse from the back tees.
If you survive #2, your reprieve is not long lasting as you reach the start of our Amen Corner. The #1 most difficult hole is the 4th.
423m (462 yds) uphill all the way to a severely raised green. Great for the long hitting masochists in the group. Don't forget the wind. The drive is one of the toughest you will find I'm afraid. it requires a straight and long shot with a very controlled ball flight in the wind. Right is trees and rough, left is lost. There is a bail out plateau over the trees to the right but this requires about a 250 meter carry to reach.
A good drive leaves a pretty steep uphill approach into a small green but there is a big of a backstop. The problem is if you are already hitting a 3 wood or hybrid in and need a perfect shot to get there it's not that easy to club up and play it safe and a bit long.
I think these holes are great for the long hitting + hcp'ers and would score high in the "resistance to scoring" category but are too hard for the average semi long hitting 5 hcp'er to be honest.
These holes are both pretty playable from the yellow tees but still require excellent shot making for single hcp'ers.
#18 at Noordwijkse from the back tees.
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I thought 18 at Carnoustie was crazy hard. Long, tough drive, OB left, water right, then water fronting the green again. Plus the added pressure of trying to not make 7 like van de Velde did and it's a recipe for disaster, which it was for me.
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I am someone who is getting worse. My handicap was revised at the end of last season from 22 to 24. Fortunately, most golf courses which have holes which I would deem too hard wouldn't accept me as a visitor. They have handicap limits. Good for them! It keeps the rubbish out! (Although that was not my observation last time my wife and I walked round TOC - there were some fine players out there, but there were also quite a number who clearly had fantasy handicaps).
Just for the record, when I played the 18th at Yale I got a 5 on the 18th. It was the 17 holes before that that broke my back. I loved it, though.
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Brad,
I didn't know the 20 handicap was a protected class either. But, it does feel like the definition of "too hard" has to address handicap somehow. Equally, I think there has to be a cut off at some point. #17 at the TPC is "too hard" for the 36 guy, but given its length and the size of the green, I would not say it is "too hard" overall.
Good points...I used hyperbole, but it was taken to the nth degree...I'm sure the Princeville hole has a way for the higher marker to get within 100, or 150 without getting wet...I haven't been there in 10+ years...
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5 holes at Butler have been mentioned but not one of them has been the hole that I consider to be the hardest in my ~75 rounds there over the past couple years. 8 from the back tee is probably the hardest par 3 I have ever seen. From 220 off the back tee, it has a similar feel to #2 at Isleworth. One of the features that makes it the most difficult is the overhanging tree on the right side of the creek, which, as a lifelong drawer of the golf ball, keeps me awake at night. I can't even count how many times I have been under par walking off the 6th green and still struggled to break 40 on the front 9. 7-8-9-10 is one of the most difficult stretches of holes I have played, and I think 8 is the cornerstone.
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I am surprised there are not more horror stories about five at Merion. I have seen some huge numbers hacked up on that hole. In my opinion it can be a round killer the same as fourteen at PV.
Water down the entire left side and that evil green, you guys must be pretty damn good players.
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I am surprised there are not more horror stories about five at Merion. I have seen some huge numbers hacked up on that hole. In my opinion it can be a round killer the same as fourteen at PV.
Ed,
You can "bail" on your tee shot and second shot at # 5 at Merion.
There is no "bail" at # 14 at PV.
Water down the entire left side and that evil green, you guys must be pretty damn good players.
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Well my good man I have only played PV five times, three pars and two bogeys on that hole.
I have birdied every hole at Merion except for five.
Must be in my head, maybe it's later in the round and I am thinking more clearly by then .
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The 18th on the Fream course at Nordcenter, Finland back in the 90's played as a 440m par 4. Up quite a hill all the way. OOB tight left and bunkered on both sides of the slip of a fairway. The strongly undulating green was semi-blind with deep bunkers in front and bare rock behind. In over 50 plays I don't think I got any closer than 50m from it in two and made par maybe half a dozen times.
The course was certainly spectacular with many good holes but an absolute brute from the back tees. When I was there in the early 90's the par was 72 with a course record of 76. Not seen any discussions about it on here.
Jon
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hopefully the correct thread.
Regarding the impossible 14th at PV. It wasn't designed to play at 200 plus yards. The card from the late 20s lists it at 164. The 10th btw is at 134.
Even if the big boys hit the same number club, the height, time in the air, etc. does that make a difference? Today I would play a downhill 164 with a 6 iron for comparison. At plus 200 yards I've got a hybrid or more depending on wind. (11.2 index)
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#11 at Austin Country club would be very high on my list Peye Dye to the extreme,terrifying hole with a card in your back pocket from the back tee, and certainly will not argue with 14 at PV from the silly tee and Merions 18 th with a hard green from any tee!!!
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I know that the objective is to look at individual holes, but I do really feel like context matters here. Take the par-3 3rd at Myopia. Brutally long in the neighborhood of 260. Small green, especially relative to its length. Long is dead. Right is likely dead. Left is bunkered. And short is in the deep crossbunker, making the carry over 200 yards. Tough, tough hole. Birdie is virtually impossible without chipping in or making a long putt. Par is difficult. Bogey isn't guaranteed. And others are very much in play.
Too hard? Arguably, but it didn't feel that way after playing the short par 4 1st and the short par 5 second. Rather, it felt fair. But put that same hole at the end of a stretch of 470 yard par 4s and 600 yard par 5s and maybe it feels a little different.
Great point
+1
and a good reason why NO hole on a balanced course can be considered too hard, as long as there are others that are considered by some to "too easy"
Evaluating and adjusting holes separately to be fair, or the "right" amount of hard ,is a surefire sprint in the race to homogonization and mediocrity.
1/2 par holes are almost always going to fall into the too hard, or too easy category, especially those without a lot of risk in going for the lower number/reward-still a great category of hole IMHO.
One man's risk reward is another man's penal (that sounds a bit dirty)
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As bad as water and OB are, this is even worse...
...#2 at the Outlaw course at Desert Mountain.
A short 5 par with a longish hourglass green that falls away with tight turf some 10-15 feet ON BOTH SIDES.
When I played there about 10 years ago, our caddie said that members would simply hit balls back and forth down those slopes with no hope of stopping shots anywhere but on the green. And since the turf was so tight, it would be difficult for many to elevate a shot and have it stop softly and quickly enough to stay on the putting surface. And since the slopes are so severe, putting up them was almost impossible.
Would like to think that the club has either grown grass higher or modified the slopes. Was told that the club contacted Nicklaus
(the designer), but he gave them the forearm shiver.
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Well my good man I have only played PV five times, three pars and two bogeys on that hole.
I have birdied every hole at Merion except for five.
Must be in my head, maybe it's later in the round and I am thinking more clearly by then .
Ed,
I see Anthony Gholz make the same point I would make about #14 at PV. It wasn't designed to play at 215. At some point back tees can be kind of crazy and I struggle to determine the hole itself is "too hard" rather than just that particular tee.
Pete Dye built some crazy back tees on the Ocean Course it Kiawah. Same thing Whistling Straits. He just didn't want technology to evolve and make thing too easy for the expert player. But, to me that was a response to mismanagement of technology rather than Dye building hole that were "too hard".
As for #5 at Merion, I can't imagine there are many birdies there at all, but like Pat suggests, I think even the handicap guy can, smartly, play for bogey without too much difficulty.
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As bad as water and OB are, this is even worse...
...#2 at the Outlaw course at Desert Mountain.
A short 5 par with a longish hourglass green that falls away with tight turf some 10-15 feet ON BOTH SIDES.
When I played there about 10 years ago, our caddie said that members would simply hit balls back and forth down those slopes with no hope of stopping shots anywhere but on the green. And since the turf was so tight, it would be difficult for many to elevate a shot and have it stop softly and quickly enough to stay on the putting surface. And since the slopes are so severe, putting up them was almost impossible.
Would like to think that the club has either grown grass higher or modified the slopes. Was told that the club contacted Nicklaus
(the designer), but he gave them the forearm shiver.
It wasn't too hard for Jack!
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Well my good man I have only played PV five times, three pars and two bogeys on that hole.
I have birdied every hole at Merion except for five.
Must be in my head, maybe it's later in the round and I am thinking more clearly by then .
Ed,
What yardage did you play # 14 from ?
I happen to believe that there are holes that get in our head, holes that present a uniquely difficult challenge to the golfer.
# 5 at Merion is a difficult hole by any standard.
I believe that the arrangement of architectural features, in the context of the individual golfer's game/mind, can conspire to make the hole unusually difficult for them.
Consider a golfer, whose natural ball flight is a draw, a draw that fights a hook, then trouble on the left has to prey on the golfer's mind and resultant play. That would make # 5 more difficult since the creek comes into play for the entire play of the hole.
Some golfers have an exaggerated fear of bunkers, others an exaggerated fear of water.
So imagine the golfer who fights a hook, who has an exaggerated fear of water as he steps up to the tee on # 5.
Now add in the golfer's ego, an ego that says that he's better than he is, an ego that won't allow him to compensate for his inadequacies by playing far right of the trouble that looms left.
This is what architects dream of.
But their dreams must not favor any one particular game over 18 holes.
They must formulate a balanced tactical challenge over 18 holes.
While # 5 may disfavor the golfer who draws/hooks the ball, fears water and has an ego that plays into that, perhaps the 7th, 8th and 9th hole favors that golfer.
It's hard to find a golfer where the arrangement of the features and hazards favors a golfer on # 14 at PV.
On # 14 the architect has created a pass/fail test with enormous penalties meted out to those who fail the test.
The one golfer who will suffer excessively on # 14 is the golfer with the distance ego, the golfer who's typically short, who underclubs routinely.
If I sat on the 5th green at Merion and the 14th green at PV, and tallied the play over par on both holes, without allowing pick-ups, # 14 would play significantly more difficult, ergo harder.
P.S. The play in the post above does not represent any individual, living or dead ;D
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Pat, any chance the double digit score you posted on 14 has something to do with your feelings that this might be the only hole in the world that is actually "too hard"?
By the way, over my last 6 or 8 rounds at each, my average score on 14 at PV is about 2.9 versus 4.9 on #13 at Merion...
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Pat, any chance the double digit score you posted on 14 has something to do with your feelings that this might be the only hole in the world that is actually "too hard"?
By the way, over my last 6 or 8 rounds at each, my average score on 14 at PV is about 2.9 versus 4.9 on #13 at Merion...
That's an aberration.
# 13 at Merion is exponentially easier
What distance did you play # 14 at PV from ?
Did you use the drop area on any of your plays ?
Using the drop area is an admission that the hole is too hard for the golfer from the tee he's playing from.
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Using the drop area is an admission that the hole is too hard for the golfer from the tee he's playing from.[/color]
Okay Roy!?!
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:P :'(
Was playing 18 at Stone Harbor in a skins game back after it was first renovated. 16 guys all decent players.
Cold windy day ! When they started divvying up the skins they said I got one on 18. Raised my hand and said no, I made bogey there .
Looked around the grill room and nobody offered . Bogey got the cash.
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Using the drop area is an admission that the hole is too hard for the golfer from the tee he's playing from.[/color]
Okay Roy!?!
That wasn't Roy's critical choice.
His choice was to lay up or go for it.
He chose to go for it...repeatedly
And there was no drop area.
I'll bet you on par at # 13 at Merion versus par on # 14 at PV all day long, with every foursome that plays the hole.
and I'll bet you on the average score on both holes all day long.
Opting for the drop area is a concession that the hole is too hard for the golfer.
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Opting for the drop area is a concession that the hole is too hard for the golfer.
And providing a drop area at all is admission that the club fathers know it too!
cheers
vk
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VK,
AGREED
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That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?
430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.
I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...
Tsk, tsk, tsk! Stereotypes, stereotypes, stereotypes. There are bazillions of golfers with handicaps over 30 that have no problem with that carry.
I shudder to think how short hitting single digit handicap golfers play that how without putting down cartpaths...
Fine, I should have added "without losing a ball." Or, "without having better than a 1/4 chance of pulling off the shot."
I didn't know the 20-handicap was a protected class!
Well those short hitting single digit handicaps have zero percent of pulling off the shot, so your continued underestimation of the 20 handicapper continues to make me shudder.
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My average at #5 Merion is 4.0000. What's so hard about that hole?
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Sorry boys...but providing a drop area amongst otherwise unplayable ground is hardly an admission that this is the singularly most "too hard" hole in golf.
In addition, to use it after hitting a ball in the water is not a concession that the hole is too hard...rather, to not use it would emulate Roy 'Tin Cup' McEvoy...
The hole is extremely hard...but not the most difficult on the course for any caliber player, whether you measure average score or frequency of 'others'.
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Sorry boys...but providing a drop area amongst otherwise unplayable ground is hardly an admission that this is the singularly most "too hard" hole in golf.
Jim, you've contradicted yourself, but that's not unusual😀
You've admitted that the body of the hole resides on "unplayable ground"
I'd say that qualifies a hole as being too hard.
In addition is not a concession that the hole is too hard...rather, to not use it would emulate Roy 'Tin Cup' McEvoy...
Obviously you don't understand "cause and effect"
And again, youneed to familiarize yourself with the plot in "Tin Cup"
There was NO drop area in "Tin Cup"
Roy's choice was to either lay up or go for it.
There is NOWHERE to lay up on # 14 at PV.
It's one of the ultimate pass/fail holes, like 17 at TPC
The only hole that resembles it, sans water, was the original 17th at Sand Hills.
The hole is extremely hard...but not the most difficult on the course for any caliber player, whether you measure average score or frequency of 'others'.
Yard for yard it's easiest the hardest hole on the course.
Would # 5 replicate it's difficulty from the same yardages ?
Not even close.
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Pat,
Pine Valley is 600 acres of unplayable terrain and about 50 of the best golf imaginable...you need to rethink your angle here. Why would anyone consider #5 from the distance of #14? They'd be ass deep in the lake...
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Pat,
Pine Valley is 600 acres of unplayable terrain and about 50 of the best golf imaginable...you need to rethink your angle here.
Jim, rather, I think you need to understand the pass/fail nature of the hole and the island nature of the green.
Or, as "Rocky" the supreme yardage and wind consultant, states, when golfer's are on the 14th tee, when he picks up their ball off the tee, holds it high up, looks at it and says, "you better take a deep breath now"
Why would anyone consider #5 from the distance of #14? They'd be ass deep in the lake...
Jim, have someone explain the concept to you as you're obviously sleep deprived and unable to comprehend my analogy.
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And you may need to have someone loosen your chinstrap...
I know the hole quite well and agree that it's difficult, extremely difficult even. What you fail to accept is that the consequences for failing the initial test are generally pretty mundane. There are certainly times when a ball gets into a Pine Valley spot but most often the ball is fairly clean in a bunker or dropped about 75 yards from the flattest green on the course.
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And you may need to have someone loosen your chinstrap...
I know the hole quite well and agree that it's difficult, extremely difficult even.
What you fail to accept is that the consequences for failing the initial test are generally pretty mundane.
"Mundane" ? Shirley you jest.
Fail the initial test and you have to play the same shot, with failure on your first shot and the consequences for failing on your next shot, fresh on your mind. It's one of the most daunting shots in all of golf. And, it gets more difficult with each required/repeated attempt.
There are certainly times when a ball gets into a Pine Valley spot but most often the ball is fairly clean in a bunker or dropped about 75 yards from the flattest green on the course.
The moment you introduce a drop area, you're conceding that the hole is too hard and can't be replayed from the original tee.
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Fail the initial test and you have to play the same shot, with failure on your first shot and the consequences for failing on your next shot, fresh on your mind. It's one of the most daunting shots in all of golf. And, it gets more difficult with each required/repeated attempt.
The moment you introduce a drop area, you're conceding that the hole is too hard and can't be replayed from the original tee.
Absolutely...it's an admission of excessive difficulty when an adjunct rules allowance, outside the normal procedures, must be instituted...just imagine the hole without that allowance of a drop area...and its why, as matter of basic principle, the more that water and islands are introduced to a hole, the more difficult that hole is likely to become.
Another candidate (though on a ridiculous course to begin with)
13th at (the first) Trump National - Briarcliff...back tee makes an uphill shot of about 208...blind...to an island green...set in a waterfall basin swear to god, you'll get more bogeys if you just flair it out into the 11th fairway and tack on sideways.
cheers
vk
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My average at #5 Merion is 4.0000. What's so hard about that hole?
Good lord I must be a total hack. I hit two of my best shots there last June with the approach landing twenty feet to the right of a middle hole location, and ended up in the left rough by the creek. A four putt/chip ensued.
I see Pats points about 14 at PV but I just believe 5 is more difficult, but I am a moron.
It is quite possible it now resides in my head that I cannot play the hole well .
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I've never heard that about formal drop areas...strange POV!
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My entry: the 18th at Butler National.
While it is hardly plausible for 99.99% of golfers to enjoy this course from the tips (7500+ yards), the "Tournament tees" are just under 7000 and the 18th plays as Par 4 @ 464 yards (instead of 484 from tips).
In 10 rounds there, I have made one par.
as an "S-shaped" hole, it has a demanding tee shot with a water on the right at around 260 - 280, woods on the left and the small landing area is framed by two small groves of trees. You MUST hit the fairway here.
Second shot plays into a green with sever slopes from back to front and left to right with yet another pond to the left. It is a fitting closing hole to an arduous test of skill, patience and tolerance.
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The problem on 14 is that if is blowing at all , you can't figure the distance . From the back tee its way tougher.
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Ian: 18 at Butler used to have another tree in the middle of the fairway about 110 short of the green. Miss your spot on the drive, automatic lay up even if in the fairway. The best angle was from the 10th fairway.
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My entry: the 18th at Butler National.
While it is hardly plausible for 99.99% of golfers to enjoy this course from the tips (7500+ yards), the "Tournament tees" are just under 7000 and the 18th plays as Par 4 @ 464 yards (instead of 484 from tips).
In 10 rounds there, I have made one par.
as an "S-shaped" hole, it has a demanding tee shot with a water on the right at around 260 - 280, woods on the left and the small landing area is framed by two small groves of trees. You MUST hit the fairway here.
Second shot plays into a green with sever slopes from back to front and left to right with yet another pond to the left. It is a fitting closing hole to an arduous test of skill, patience and tolerance.
+1 Throw in #5,8,9,10 and you have a very demanding day. Played last Summer at Butler with one of the better European tour players and he was shaking his head after playing the 18th. For my money #10 is the hardest hole in Chicago.
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#1 green at Oakmont is pretty difficult to hold if you don't have backspin on the ball.
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#1 green at Oakmont is pretty difficult to hold if you don't have backspin on the ball.
That's why you play to the front of the green ;D
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From my TV memory of #1 Oakmont, it is an immenitly fair green because it's entire front is open. You (try to) land the ball 15 yards short and let it roll. Admittedly, it will take some bounces and pops, but the hole is playable, meaning, for me, that the golfer can readily complete the hole with a score obtained with in the Rules of Golf.
My previous Ballyhack threads and comments are made within the context that the severity of the hole may make completing the hole, with in the Rules of Golf, potentially problematic for some if not many.
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The following holes from the "Tips" present ample challenges where double bogey or higher is always in play, for even the scratch player:
#'s 6 & 18 at The Golf Club in New Albany, OH.
#'s 13 & 18 at Kiawah Ocean Course
# 7 The River Course at Kiawah Island
# 2 Scioto CC
# 14 Moraine CC
#18 Canterbury
# 4 Westbrook CC
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A few nominations:
#8 @ Prairie Dunes
#15 @ PV played harder than 14 IMO
#10 & 18 @Butler National
#16 @ CPC
#1 @ Oak Tree National(harder than #1 @Oakmont IMO)
#2 @ Dismal River from the tips
#17 @ Karsten Creek
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Carl: Yes, you can land the ball short on Oakmont #1 and watch it roll, and roll, and roll, and roll. Who knows where it will stop.
I think #5 at Merion is tougher that #14 at PV for one reason. On a good day, with a good tee shot, I have been know to par #14. I don't think I am capable of paring #5 at Merion unless the pin is far left. But then, I don't remember making more than a double on #5. Can't say the same about #14.
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#2 @ Dismal River from the tips
This.