Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve_ Shaffer on January 16, 2015, 10:26:56 PM
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RANCHO PALOS VERDES, Calif. (AP) - Donald Trump said Thursday that he is abandoning plans to build luxury homes on the driving range of the 18-hole seaside golf course he owns in Los Angeles County.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20150115_ap_3fe147295b154e9ab836f2ad6d04ea82.html#pXHygg22WgOcpOb0.99
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That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.
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Martin,
Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?
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Martin,
Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?
Hey Pat,
Have you played there? ;)
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I wouldn,t call this a Pete Dye golf course. To begin with I believe it was mostly designed by Perry, and secondly, it changed significantly after Trump redesigned it. To call this a Dye course is a real stretch.
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Martin,
Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?
I have no issues with Dye, nor care less who designed it. Dye may well have done the best job he could with the material available. I liked his work at Bulle Rock, the only other Dye I have played.
Trump National just isn't very good, a quart in a pint pot, to start, then it has a few bits which are rather tarted up, such as the fountastic first hole.
I am sure you would judge it objectively without having regard to designed it.
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What are the going insurance rates to build on a fault ridden parcel? Perhaps there are current or recent geology re-evaluations that indicate it is more or less as stable as anywhere else in that area. But, that wasn't the information about the land that I remember reading back in the day when the 18th slid into the ocean...
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The original developers, the Zuckerman brothers (and the insurers), must have hired the 3 Stooges for their geology and soils reports on the original course. I was living in the area at the time and everyone knows how unstable that area of the peninsula (known as Portuguese Bend) has been for years. The road that leads to the course has to be repaved a couple of times a year as the land shifts around. I'm not sure it is a earthquake fault as much as it is just an unstable land mass.
After the slide, insurance (Prudentail?) paid for rebuilding the holes at a cost of something like $40 million. (I know Trump says $260+ million but I've never seen a credible source for that number). That said, I think they poured enough concrete pilings in that cliff to build the Empire State Building. I found this old article: http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcnew/article/2001aug14b.pdf (http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcnew/article/2001aug14b.pdf)
It includes this excerpt: Some 115 shear pins - pipes three feet thick - descend 20 feet down below the slide layer and rise 20 feet above it to provide additional support.
I don't think anything short of "the Big One" is going to move any of that ground at this point.
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The original developers, the Zuckerman brothers (and the insurers), must have hired the 3 Stooges for their geology and soils reports on the original course. I was living in the area at the time and everyone knows how unstable that area of the peninsula (known as Portuguese Bend) has been for years. The road that leads to the course has to be repaved a couple of times a year as the land shifts around. I'm not sure it is a earthquake fault as much as it is just an unstable land mass.
Peter appears to be correct. Not so much an earthquake issue as it is an ancient landslide issue. From the Wikipedia article about the course:
"The golf course is on a peninsula known for its landslides. The height of the peninsula of 370 meters above sea level and the action of the waves are two main contributing factors for the landslides. The stratification of the sedimentary rock below the course is visible in the high cliffs of the area as it gradually slopes seaward. The sloping and stratification create favorable conditions for the generation of landslides. As a result, homes and roads have been lost to the ocean in that area. In the area occupied by the golf course and its vicinity, there are three ancient landslides which have been named by geologists as A, B and C respectively. The green of the Ocean Trails golf course 18th hole and half of its fairway were on top of ancient landslide C."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_National_Golf_Club_%28Los_Angeles%29
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Martin,
Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?
Hey Pat,
Have you played there? ;)
The LPGA Tour has played there, and it was really funny seeing The Donald trying coax compliments about the course out of the ladies. What he got was "The views are fantastic." over and over and over again. Not one of the players said anything about the design or playability of any of the holes.
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Martin,
Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?
Hey Pat,
Have you played there? ;)
The LPGA Tour has played there, and it was really funny seeing The Donald trying coax compliments about the course out of the ladies. What he got was "The views are fantastic." over and over and over again. Not one of the players said anything about the design or playability of any of the holes.
It is one of the worst values, dollar for dollar, that I have ever played. Tight, contrived, mushy, poorly conditioned for the money, artificial, and just ... BAD.
And here's the interesting part: I have nothing against Donald Trump, and I really like Pete Dye, so in no way does either of their involvement color my judgement.
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I worked there as a pro when it was 15 holes and Trump had just bought it from Credit Suisse. Interesting times to say the least. The location of the course is just on the other side of the Portugese Bend slide so it is, all things being equal, extremely stable compared to the slide zone. The course is very much a Pete Dye course (cant say much for the Donald's "design add ons). It is a very good course completely ill suited for the demographic and clientele that seems to play there.
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That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.
The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it. I walked off after nine holes.
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Ryan, have you played it after Trump made the changes? If so, how do you think it compares to the course, pre-Trump?
btw, Trump used to claim on his website that the course is a Donald Trump design. No mention of Dye back then. He later changed that, and now calls it a Dye/Trump design.
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I have played there. The most obvious changes are the first hole and the completion which was 9,12, and 18 i believe. I can't say I like the waterfall and infinity pools on 1 but that was a marginal opening hole to begin with. The bones of the course, as they were designed, blend pretty well into the terraced hillsides and one could argue that the setting is as impressive as any course along the coast. I would never go out of my way to play there especially paying full boat.
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That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.
The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it. I walked off after nine holes.
I completely disagree with this, or at least not entirely agree with the majority of it.
I used to drive by that land,and think to myself that it screamed golf course. The existing land was much more rolling and had fescue/stypa like grasses blowing on it mixed between the California Coastal scrub and it ALWAYS warranted stopping, getting out of the car and looking, thinking, drewming. If only I had my iPhone back then to take pictures!
When the golf course was planned, whether it be the powers that be or THE DYE'S (meaning Pete and Perry) the course ran into the most dreadful curse of the Palos Verdes local authorities who deem what can and cannot be done out there. Given the great land that should have been far more protected and has since become houses, there should have been more welcoming arms into making it a most natural and fun golf course as its next door predecessor, "The Royal Palms."
Situated just due South of Trump National-Los Angeles was a course designed, built and routed by William Park Bell, which basically eliminated the thought of having to walk the terrain because you literally played your way through the steeper parts of it. From accounts, it was fun, quirky and glamorous, as it and the oceanside palazzo below it were going to be the celebration of life in Southern California in the roaring 1920's. Sadly, the course died rather quickly due to the Great Depression and by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her. This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die. They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later. The double-structured clubhouse would eventually be burnt down by kids playing with matches and the site was razed for housing and a trailer park. The only surviving piece of it-- the once welcoming "Gate House" and the actual entry gate for the club. The work of it, seriously of some great craftsmanship and has to be seen to be appreciated!
The course was on a similar nature of land as the current Trump-LA, and not to suggest Pete didn't know what he was doing, Billy Bell didn't have the regulations thrown at him like Pete did for that property. Pete left without nearly the involvement he intended, leaving it to Perry, well we know can imagine what happened from there.
As far as Trump-LA for us lovers of great architecture, I can certainly say this: beyond the lack of defining architecture, I can certainly say it's an absolutely glorious day to be out there with a slight to medium breeze, Catalina sitting out there where you feel you can literally reach out and touch Avalon and its famed Casino. It's the perfect golf setting, and frankly, being as snobby as they come when it concerns great architecture, I love the day out there! Frankly, that's what it's all about! Of course, I have every idea set in my mind how to make the place better, which holes to completely analyze and dream if someday getting the opportunity to blow them up and put in something far better. But I could never come close to the love of the wonderful atmosphere and humble staff that work there. Many of them have been there since the day the Zuckerman's opened it with great dreams, only to hit one speed bump after another till they could do no more. These same staff, Mr. Trump, the guy we all love to hate, still employs there, knowing how much they love the place, from club manager, course superintendent, first tee/cart guy, food servers and other staff. Director of Golf, Joe Lewis is a champ!
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That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.
The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it. I walked off after nine holes.
I completely disagree with this, or at least not entirely agree with the majority of it.
I used to drive by that land,and think to myself that it screamed golf course. The existing land was much more rolling and had fescue/stypa like grasses blowing on it mixed between the California Coastal scrub and it ALWAYS warranted stopping, getting out of the car and looking, thinking, drewming. If only I had my iPhone back then to take pictures!
When the golf course was planned, whether it be the powers that be or THE DYE'S (meaning Pete and Perry) the course ran into the most dreadful curse of the Palos Verdes local authorities who deem what can and cannot be done out there. Given the great land that should have been far more protected and has since become houses, there should have been more welcoming arms into making it a most natural and fun golf course as its next door predecessor, "The Royal Palms."
Situated just due South of Trump National-Los Angeles was a course designed, built and routed by William Park Bell, which basically eliminated the thought of having to walk the terrain because you literally played your way through the steeper parts of it. From accounts, it was fun, quirky and glamorous, as it and the oceanside palazzo below it were going to be the celebration of life in Southern California in the roaring 1920's. Sadly, the course died rather quickly due to the Great Depression and by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her. This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die. They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later. The double-structured clubhouse would eventually be burnt down by kids playing with matches and the site was razed for housing and a trailer park. The only surviving piece of it-- the once welcoming "Gate House" and the actual entry gate for the club. The work of it, seriously of some great craftsmanship and has to be seen to be appreciated!
The course was on a similar nature of land as the current Trump-LA, and not to suggest Pete didn't know what he was doing, Billy Bell didn't have the regulations thrown at him like Pete did for that property. Pete left without nearly the involvement he intended, leaving it to Perry, well we know can imagine what happened from there.
As far as Trump-LA for us lovers of great architecture, I can certainly say this: beyond the lack of defining architecture, I can certainly say it's an absolutely glorious day to be out there with a slight to medium breeze, Catalina sitting out there where you feel you can literally reach out and touch Avalon and its famed Casino. It's the perfect golf setting, and frankly, being as snobby as they come when it concerns great architecture, I love the day out there! Frankly, that's what it's all about! Of course, I have every idea set in my mind how to make the place better, which holes to completely analyze and dream if someday getting the opportunity to blow them up and put in something far better. But I could never come close to the love of the wonderful atmosphere and humble staff that work there. Many of them have been there since the day the Zuckerman's opened it with great dreams, only to hit one speed bump after another till they could do no more. These same staff, Mr. Trump, the guy we all love to hate, still employs there, knowing how much they love the place, from club manager, course superintendent, first tee/cart guy, food servers and other staff. Director of Golf, Joe Lewis is a champ!
The staff may be great, Donald may treat them like family (in a good way), it may be better than anyone had a right to expect given the land, local planners etc etc.
But in absolute terms, most players who like classic and great golf courses and goes to Trump LA will come away underwhelmed.
Like others, I went to it wanting to, and assuming I would, like it and it would be a fun, scenic track. But I really really didn't.
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The staff may be great, Donald may treat them like family (in a good way), it may be better than anyone had a right to expect given the land, local planners etc etc.
But in absolute terms, most players who like classic and great golf courses and goes to Trump LA will come away underwhelmed.
Like others, I went to it wanting to, and assuming I would, like it and it would be a fun, scenic track. But I really really didn't.
I could have swore I was saying exactly that, with exception to be out there in a beautiful day? If in fact you didn't think it was scenic, then I think you're incapable of defining any sort of architecture, good or bad.
Fact: the architecture is horrible there. The site itself is beautiful and I would gladly spend another day out there, thinking of what, or devising a plan of how to make it far better. That's constructive.
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Tommy,
Where did Pete Dye go wrong ?
He's not prone to bad design.
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Patrick.
It is beautiful place. Just not a beautiful place for golf.
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David,
When you combine a beautiful oceanside place and Pete Dye, how could you go wrong ?
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Pat,
Trump LA suffers architecturally from a sense of repetitiveness. There are a few holes and many shots out there where you stand over your ball and say to yourself, "Haven't I already played this shot?"
First off, with the exception of hole #1, every other hole plays essentially east/west. The routing is very back and forth with little variety in regards to the wind direction.
There are five par 3s on the course, yet two of them feel too similar to others on the course. #4 and #15 are drop shots that have almost the exact same yardages from all tee boxes and play in the same direction. #8 and #17-- long par 3s with trouble short left and long-- are also near exact yardages and also play in the same direction. It is very likely on these respective sets of holes you will be playing the same club with the same shot in mind. #11 is the only one of the par 3s that feels different from the others and I think that it benefits from the land west of the clubhouse.
Similarly, three of the par 5s (#2, #7, and #12) play in the same direction and can feel repetitive as well. (Although #12 has a cool green.)
#16 suffers from being too similar to #10, a short par 4 with trouble short left and again facing the same direction. (Though #10 has sand short left, and #16 water.)
There are very tight spots on the course, forcing very narrow playing corridors, such as #3, #5, and #14. Since most areas off the playing surfaces are environmentally protected areas, recovery is impossible. This can be a huge issue if you find yourself just a little wayward, especially off the tee, and especially for the mid-handicapper.
That's not to say there aren't good holes out there. #10, #13, and #18 hop to mind. I have had some wonderful days out there with friends and the service is great. But architecturally, I feel like there is a better course out there somewhere.
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Jordan,
Where would you place/evaluate this course in terms of Pete Dye's body of work ?
And, what would you give it on the Doak scale ?
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Going by the Doak scale, you could argue a 4.
If I had to group the Pete Dye courses I've played it would look like this:
Kiawah (Ocean)
Harbour Town
PGA West (Stadium)
La Quinta (Mountain)
Trump National Los Angeles
La Quinta (Dunes)
Lost Canyons (Sky & Shadow)
Although I can only make an educated guess with regards to the rest of his work, I'd say it probably falls in the bottom third.
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That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.
The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it. I walked off after nine holes.
I completely disagree with this, or at least not entirely agree with the majority of it.
I used to drive by that land,and think to myself that it screamed golf course. The existing land was much more rolling and had fescue/stypa like grasses blowing on it mixed between the California Coastal scrub and it ALWAYS warranted stopping, getting out of the car and looking, thinking, drewming. If only I had my iPhone back then to take pictures!
When the golf course was planned, whether it be the powers that be or THE DYE'S (meaning Pete and Perry) the course ran into the most dreadful curse of the Palos Verdes local authorities who deem what can and cannot be done out there. Given the great land that should have been far more protected and has since become houses, there should have been more welcoming arms into making it a most natural and fun golf course as its next door predecessor, "The Royal Palms."
Situated just due South of Trump National-Los Angeles was a course designed, built and routed by William Park Bell, which basically eliminated the thought of having to walk the terrain because you literally played your way through the steeper parts of it. From accounts, it was fun, quirky and glamorous, as it and the oceanside palazzo below it were going to be the celebration of life in Southern California in the roaring 1920's. Sadly, the course died rather quickly due to the Great Depression and by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her. This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die. They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later. The double-structured clubhouse would eventually be burnt down by kids playing with matches and the site was razed for housing and a trailer park. The only surviving piece of it-- the once welcoming "Gate House" and the actual entry gate for the club. The work of it, seriously of some great craftsmanship and has to be seen to be appreciated!
The course was on a similar nature of land as the current Trump-LA, and not to suggest Pete didn't know what he was doing, Billy Bell didn't have the regulations thrown at him like Pete did for that property. Pete left without nearly the involvement he intended, leaving it to Perry, well we know can imagine what happened from there.
As far as Trump-LA for us lovers of great architecture, I can certainly say this: beyond the lack of defining architecture, I can certainly say it's an absolutely glorious day to be out there with a slight to medium breeze, Catalina sitting out there where you feel you can literally reach out and touch Avalon and its famed Casino. It's the perfect golf setting, and frankly, being as snobby as they come when it concerns great architecture, I love the day out there! Frankly, that's what it's all about! Of course, I have every idea set in my mind how to make the place better, which holes to completely analyze and dream if someday getting the opportunity to blow them up and put in something far better. But I could never come close to the love of the wonderful atmosphere and humble staff that work there. Many of them have been there since the day the Zuckerman's opened it with great dreams, only to hit one speed bump after another till they could do no more. These same staff, Mr. Trump, the guy we all love to hate, still employs there, knowing how much they love the place, from club manager, course superintendent, first tee/cart guy, food servers and other staff. Director of Golf, Joe Lewis is a champ!
Tommy,
I agree it it a wonderful place, the Pacific vistas are great and the staff is friendly.
The topography is too severe for any architect to have even considered it for golf.
As for the Doak scale, the course is contrived and unnatural.
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Pat, Sorry for the delay in getting back, although Jordan summed it up pretty good. I'll add that Pete pretty much had nothing to do with this course other then the initial routing. When the city took away the western- most part of the course, it affected greatly holes number 10 and 11, which originall were going to be the 17th and 18th holes. Current 18th was actually going to be the 16th and it was a rather strong and good finish. When that happened, Pete walked away, leaving the project to his son Perry. I'm told that if the loss of property hadn't happened, then Pete would have actually been out there to do shaping and building of the golf course himself. The only times he's been back was to survey 18 after it had collapsed down below and come up with a plan if what to do.
The repetiveness of every hole I've never quite ever seen as bad just as Jordan suggests. Further, there is simple not one memorable hole or feature that was built on the course, given how much land was moved to create these terraced fairways on the main body of golf holes which one would find in a Pete Dye design.. The site itself is set on a West-Northwest to East-Southeast section of the Palos Verdes Peninsula. Every hole going North-Northwest features a green going right to left and every hole going East-Southeast, a green that goes left to right. It's monotonous at best.
To make this property work considering the cost of it required housing and as we all know, once you invite that vampire into the picture, it sucks the life out of great golf.
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Tommy,
I agree it it a wonderful place, the Pacific vistas are great and the staff is friendly.
The topography is too severe for any architect to have even considered it for golf.
As for the Doak scale, the course is contrived and unnatural.
John, There are a lot of great classic golf courses where the topography was severe, but something magnificent put on it. One of them for example, The Ojai Valley Inn, who's back nine, now front is very severe. This didn't prevent Captain Thomas from creating a magnificent golf course with Billy Bell constructing. Back in the day, they called these "Sporty Courses" and they most certainly were! Unfortunately, Golf has lost its sporting nature.
The reason I bring up William Park "Billy" Bell is because, obviously, he routed, designed and constructed the once magnificent neighbor that existed right next door to Trump's property, The Royal Palms.
As I had said earlier in my initial post, the routing was that of genius because Bell took that severe topography, much the same as Trump's and routed a walkable, sporty course on it and which featured a spectacular close with its 16th, 17th and 18th holes. The 16th being a roller coaster of a down hill par 5 which was fun and quirky to a fall away green that would have produced a backdrop of nothing but ocean looking downhill. Something the Trump property could have easily replicated or produced, and just the features of embracing on sites as such when routing for a "natural" sporty golf course. The next hole, Bell injected a short uphill par 3 to a green guarded by bunkers. Anything right was off of the cliff and into the ocean, and was much the same as the long and demanding two-shot 18th. You played this hole with your back to the prevailing wind and with a panorama of Catalina on your right side view!
This is why, I look at Trump for what it could have been, what it could possibly be if given to someone wanting to think outside of the "modern" box and bring back the sporting nature of playing. (Golf is a Sport by definition)
With respect to Tom's rating of golf courses, the one thing it can't do is rate what isn't there anymore. But we have seen Tom route courses in propert just as severe, complex and topographic. It's called Stone Eagle. If given the chance, I'm sure Tom would look at Trump, then compare it to plans of Royal Palms and come up with a routing that gently crawled up the hills on angles, only to fall back down to the lower resources and gently crawl back up again.
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Tommy,
I agree it it a wonderful place, the Pacific vistas are great and the staff is friendly.
The topography is too severe for any architect to have even considered it for golf.
As for the Doak scale, the course is contrived and unnatural.
John, There are a lot of great classic golf courses where the topography was severe, but something magnificent put on it. One of them for example, The Ojai Valley Inn, who's back nine, now front is very severe. This didn't prevent Captain Thomas from creating a magnificent golf course with Billy Bell constructing. Back in the day, they called these "Sporty Courses" and they most certainly were! Unfortunately, Golf has lost its sporting nature.
The reason I bring up William Park "Billy" Bell is because, obviously, he routed, designed and constructed the once magnificent neighbor that existed right next door to Trump's property, The Royal Palms.
As I had said earlier in my initial post, the routing was that of genius because Bell took that severe topography, much the same as Trump's and routed a walkable, sporty course on it and which featured a spectacular close with its 16th, 17th and 18th holes. The 16th being a roller coaster of a down hill par 5 which was fun and quirky to a fall away green that would have produced a backdrop of nothing but ocean looking downhill. Something the Trump property could have easily replicated or produced, and just the features of embracing on sites as such when routing for a "natural" sporty golf course. The next hole, Bell injected a short uphill par 3 to a green guarded by bunkers. Anything right was off of the cliff and into the ocean, and was much the same as the long and demanding two-shot 18th. You played this hole with your back to the prevailing wind and with a panorama of Catalina on your right side view!
This is why, I look at Trump for what it could have been, what it could possibly be if given to someone wanting to think outside of the "modern" box and bring back the sporting nature of playing. (Golf is a Sport by definition)
With respect to Tom's rating of golf courses, the one thing it can't do is rate what isn't there anymore. But we have seen Tom route courses in propert just as severe, complex and topographic. It's called Stone Eagle. If given the chance, I'm sure Tom would look at Trump, then compare it to plans of Royal Palms and come up with a routing that gently crawled up the hills on angles, only to fall back down to the lower resources and gently crawl back up again.
Tommy,
I agree, topographical severity does not necessarily preclude good design. I can think of many fine courses that are on difficult ground but are architectural gems. Two that quickly come to mind are Pasatiempo and Shoreacres. The hand (and vision) of the architect make the difference.
Stone Eagle Is a great piece of work. I live 3 minutes away.
Yes, a talented architect could have made something much better of that land on the Pacific.
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Revision, OK Shoreacres land may not qualify as severe, but it certainly was challenging for Raynor.
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Tommy,
In all fairness, Bell didn't have the limitations that Dye had.
It appears that Bell's design was unrestricted whereas Dye's was handicapped from the get go.
Absent restrictions could Dye have created a good course on the site ?
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Pat,
Limitations and restrictions are neither fair nor unfair. They exist in some places and the architect would know about them before designing the course. So, I don't think anyone can answer your question as to whether PD could have created a good course on that site. All we can do is discuss whether it is, or it isn't, a good course.
Joe
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Joe,
In many cases the restrictions are imposed after the project is undertaken, hence the architect wouldn't be aware of them when he took the commission.
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How much of what's there now is really Pete Dye's work?
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Tommy,
In all fairness, Bell didn't have the limitations that Dye had.
It appears that Bell's design was unrestricted whereas Dye's was handicapped from the get go.
Absent restrictions could Dye have created a good course on the site ?
Pat,
Pete Dye had a course in his mind that was going to go on to that site. He had two areas that had to create public access. One to the coastline which was protected, and the other to a small park-like area below the clubhouse and right on the coastal side. It was during the initial construction clearing that he was told he could not go further West-Northwest where he had more holes laid out. This is the hole you will see many on TV shows and commercials, a short dogleg left to a green surrounded by a mass of bunkers. The original planned hole was much longer and you can see the great land that was there for it. Even then, it's the main body of holes which fail to be memorable, and in my opinion, it's because of the routing of them; their back and forth nature. This same routing also produced the abomination of a golf hole, the par 5, 14th. For those of you that have played Trump LA, please explain to Pat how bad the hole is, and which there is simply nothing they can do about it.
When Pete was told he could not use that Kane, it was then he pushed it off to Perry Dye and Dye Designs.
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I find it funny that people keep calling this a Dye design on this thread, even after Tommy and I have clearly stated that Pete Dye did not design this course. The course was designed by Perry Dye and then completely reworked by Trump's team when they purchased it. The Medalist of 2015 is closer to a Pete Dye then Trump LA, and we all know how Greg Norman removed all the Dye from The Medalist. I hope that offers some perspective.
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"completely reworked by Trump's team" is an overstatement though
Some corridors were widened and native pushed back, waterfalls were added and a few holes completed (though similar to the original design I believe). The course is mostly the same as it was before Trump came in, although that's not what he would have you believe.
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Tommy & Alex,
Thanks for the clarification.
All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
Out of curiosity, could this site have produced an outstanding 9 or 12 hole course ?
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All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
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I think people want to blame Trump for statements like "the best course in California", "better than Pebble Beach". He has a bad course, but seems to have no ability to recognize that.
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All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
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I think people want to blame Trump for statements like "the best course in California", "better than Pebble Beach". He has a bad course, but seems to have no ability to recognize that.
Garland,
What you don't seem to understand is that only a handful of people/golfers know that the course isn't better than Pebble Beach.
There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands who accept Trump's accolades as credible and therefore are interested in playing the course.
So, Donald knows what he's doing, even though you don't think he does.
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All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
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I think people want to blame Trump for statements like "the best course in California", "better than Pebble Beach". He has a bad course, but seems to have no ability to recognize that.
Garland,
What you don't seem to understand is that only a handful of people/golfers know that the course isn't better than Pebble Beach.
There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands who accept Trump's accolades as credible and therefore are interested in playing the course.
So, Donald knows what he's doing, even though you don't think he does.
Well, I guess most know what the major religions of the world say will happen to The Donald when he passes away then.
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Garland,
I don't think that Trump stated that if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.
Or, if you like your insurance policy, you can keep your insurance policy.
Trump is merely promoting his club.
One thing I will say about him, he runs a very good operation and he's been very good for golf over the last few years, rescuing and enhancing clubs that would have gone under.
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. . . by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her. This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die. They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later.
The original West Coast Sheep Ranch?
(Thanks Tommy - great story.)
(Actually, Gearhsrt Links may be the original WCSR)
Would somebody please Photoshop Donald's hair in flames? Please.
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I am not as familiar with the pre-course site as Tommy, and honestly don't know if anything better could have been done there, but what they did there isn't very good golf. As many have said, the golf holes are tiered into rows the side of hil,l one above the other. For the most part the golf holes feel artificial, repetitious and not at all memorable. But the views are nice. It is almost as if the goal behind the course was to maximize the views from as many holes as possible, and the actual golf be damned.
If there is something to be learned it may be that it takes more than great views to create a great golf course.
As for Trump, I'll stay out the good for golf or not good for golf battle, except to say that whatever he is selling at this particular course, it is not a high quality golf course, and it is somewhat disheartening when he and others try to present it as if it is.
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David Moriarty, et.al.,
How many of you are aware of people who sell their product by telling the public and potential buyers how mediocre to inferior it is ?
Are you all such morons that you would tell prospective members how terrible the course is ?
Do you know of any course that advises prospective members that the course/product is vastly inferior and that they shouldn't join ?
What's the total acreage of the property ?
What's the useable acreage ?
What was the property before it was a golf course ?
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Patrick, You seem to think that since he is trying to make money we ought not have an opinion on the content of his message, or care whether it is accurate or not. I acknowledge he is just trying to make money and will say what it takes to do so, but nonetheless I'd prefer it if he put his money and his hype machine behind a better product. I am not holding my breath, though.
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Patrick, You seem to think that since he is trying to make money we ought not have an opinion on the content of his message, or care whether it is accurate or not.
David,
Not at all, I'm just trying to nudge you off of your one dimensional, myopic view of the situation at Trump L. a.
I acknowledge he is just trying to make money and will say what it takes to do so, but nonetheless I'd prefer it if he put his money and his hype machine behind a better product. I am not holding my breath, though.
David, he's just doing what anyone trying to sell a product does.
How much money did he put into fixing the 18th hole ?
Millions ? ? ?
Trump has a clear demonstrated record of investing money into his golf projects.
Since you're a local guy, tell us, what would have happened to the course/property if Trump hadn't bought it ?
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I'm unlikely to move off of my "one dimensional, myopic" view that Trump National LA is not a very good golf course. This isn't directed at Trump. I thought the same before Trump ever got involved.
As for your question . . . my guess is that, had Trump not bought it, the land would have gone back to not being a golf course. That would have been fine with me.
You and I probably differ on whether pumping tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars into a crappy golf course is laudable, and doubt this discussion it will change that.. Besides, it is his money, not mine.
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David,
How was the course before the cave in ?
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David,
You and others also seem to forget that the acquisition of this property gave Trump an L.A. presence, a west coast course that would be accessible to all of the members of his east coast based clubs.
That's a significant selling point
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Pat,
When did we stray from being an architectural discussion group to being a marketing and entrepreneurial website?
You haven't yet said whether you think Trump LA is good, bad or indifferent...and you know what you truly think. It's time to quit the side show and take a stand.
Joe
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Pat,
When did we stray from being an architectural discussion group to being a marketing and entrepreneurial website?
Probably when the discussions centered on the Bandon and Kohler courses.
You haven't yet said whether you think Trump LA is good, bad or indifferent...
I have absolutely NO opinion on the quality of the course as I've never set foot on it.
and you know what you truly think.
I do ?
Then please enlighten me and tell me what it is.
It's time to quit the side show and take a stand.
I'm not about to comment on the merits or the shortcomings of a course I've never played.
The fact is that the course existed prior to Trump's purchase.
Originally a Pete Dye course, I'm now informed, contrary to your claim, that design restrictions were imposed on the site AFTER Pete Dye was commissioned, and that Pete subsequently ceded the design responsibilities to PB.
Trump bought it and subsequently a portion of it slid into the ocean.
Rather than abandon it, he poured millions in to try to salvage the golf course.
Why is that perceived as a bad thing ?
And, why haven't you been actively critical of the OT threads that still pop up ?
The discussion of marketing and entepreurial aspects of this course remains relevant and on topic.
Focus your critiques on OT threads as opposed to topics related and tangential to architectural discussions
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David,
How was the course before the cave in ?
It wasn't really open yet. Word is the SCGA ratings crew had just finished when the slide happened. I wonder how many actually played as the original layout.
Trump was always very respectful and friendly when he came by and he was nice even to bring his wife by!!
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All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
That's because Trump himself claims co-design credit. He calls it a Pete Dye/Donald Trump design. A few years ago, on his Trump LA website, he used to drop the Dye part. He strictly called it a Donald Trump design, i.e. he was the sole architect. Apparently even now the 'Pete' part is not right. Perry designed the original. So Perry Dye/Donald Trump is probably more accurate.
I just picked up this Trump quote, from Southland Golf Magazine, on who designed the course:
“Pete Dye built a good golf course, but what we’ve done is build a great course,” Trump said. “This really has nothing to do with Ocean Trails. It’s completely new. We ripped down that course and built a new one. We used much of the routing they had but it’s wider, nearly 1,000 yards longer and everything is new, from the tees and fairways to the traps and the sand. It’s the first Donald J. Trump signature golf course.”
Garland,
What you don't seem to understand is that only a handful of people/golfers know that the course isn't better than Pebble Beach.
Golf Mag does not rank it among the top 100 US courses. Neither does Golf Digest. Neither does GolfWeek. All of them rank Pebble much, much higher.
So I think more than a handful of people/players know Pebble is better. Just about everyone who reads those three magazines, for starters.
If you are right, though, thousands of times more golfers believe Trump LA is better than Pebble. How is that good for the game?
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Patrick,
You wrote, "Trump bought it and subsequently a portion of it slid into the ocean." This isn't quite correct. As Ryan mentioned, the slide took place before "Ocean Trails" (the original name) was even officially opened, and this was years before Trump was involved. Ryan would know best, but my recollection is that the course operated for years as a 15 hole layout before Trump purchased the property. When Trump purchased the property the damage had already been done.
David,
You and others also seem to forget that the acquisition of this property gave Trump an L.A. presence, a west coast course that would be accessible to all of the members of his east coast based clubs.
That's a significant selling point
Herein lies the disconnect between my posts and your posts. I'm not interested in Trump's "LA presence" or how this course fits in his master plans. I was just commenting on the golf course, and whether or not the marketing and hype accurately portray the quality of the course. In my opinion they not. But the views are great and the people are very nice.
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FWIW, I've played the course as a 15 holer (with GCA's David Kelly, and several times after the fix, which BTW, I believe was handled by insurance, not Donald Trump, who bought it while it was being fixed. Lost was the actually pretty good opening first hole, which was replaced by the monstrosity of a green, waterfall and rock structure that looked like something out of a ride at Disneyland. Another similar structure had also been built behind the 17th green, as well as the famed "Volcano" back tee for the 18th. As absurd as it looks, the view from it is pretty spectacular. But then again, you have to really love the Palos Verdes Peninsula as I do, going back to the days of Marineland, when I was a kid!
Pat, Both David and Matt are right on the mark in description of the course. It's dreadful golf architecture. Simply horrible, However, where your correct is the assumption of Trump. I think both he and his staff have a winner here because--and I say this as someone that thinks the personal emmenities are buzz kill for us archiphiles, in actuality, Mr Trump is no different then a golf P.T. Barnum.
Step inside hello, we've the most amazing show! Come inside! Come inside! (Lyric courtesy of Peter Sinfield ;) )
And the celebrities and other people that can afford golf on a seaside course, do come. They're treated to high end service and privacy by a name they know that he knows how to offer and treat them, and they're willing to pay for it. We can all sit back and call it the worst, but in actuality, especially here in LA, you build that, they will come, simply because of the service and privacy and view this daily fee has to offer. Don't get me wrong, guys like David can afford to play Trump LA, but, choose great golf over service and privacy, for the intimacy of a public Rustic Canyon. Same thing, just different ends of the spectrum!
One more thing in Trump the man, and I've said this to a certain architect who has done work for him: "There are three people building golf courses right now. Mike Keiser, Donald Trump and Everyone Else!" You don't throw the baby out with the bath water on this one folks, you do and you might not find another golf course being built for quite sometime, simply because the loans and trust don't think Golf is a very nice word.
Trump, for better or worse, is a guy that has figured out how to build and manage golf courses successfully, despite the craziness and animosity many have for him. In the same breath--and I say this from experience--the people that work for him are driven to succeed. How are we, lovers of this sport going to fault that?!?! Especially in this place and time?
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The Zuckerman Bros originally developed the course until the slide. They went BK and the bank, Credit Suisse, came in and took it over. When I came on they were talking about linking it with a resort at the former Marine Land site which is now Terranea (they were actually filming the first Pirates of The Carribean movie there so it was a parking lot with a big pirate ship set built). The Lowe Group (Destination Resorts) was in talks to buy it but it fell through and then Trump flew in and apparently got it dirt cheap, literally a 200 foot mound of dirt stacked on 3 holes. We had no driving range and a nice short game practice hole. The range is near where the old 12th hole was and where the housing was supposed to be. Then the final holes 9,12,18 I believe were finished. It is way overpriced but they do have a loyalty program that is more "reasonable". The South Bay is so golf starved that it is the only viable option for many die hard golfers. Los Verdes is just not an option unless 6 hour rounds are your cup of tea and Victoria Links would be better served as the Rams new stadium than a golf course.
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Tommy, Ryan & David,
Did the original site dictate the terraced routing or were their alternatives that were missed
What's the acreage ?
What does a round cost ?
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Patrick, Unlike Tommy I was not familiar with the site before it was a golf course so it is tough for me to speculate what the other options might have been. Not sure the acreage they had to work with originally either. To me it seems like a tough site for any course, though, because it is basically a sidehill. As I said above, great potential for views, not so much for golf. Tommy disagrees, and because he has seen the raw product I'll defer to him on this.
As for the green fee, I think it varies significantly with time of day and year, but Ryan is your best source on that.
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Click to their website and you can see the fees: $215 to $280 this time of year to play before 1230. After 1230, $160.
I played Ocean Trails a few times when it was 15 holes open, unlimited play, summer weekday afternoons for $35 circa 2001.
I remember shooting +8 on the front 8, and followed by -2 on the back 7 one time.
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Click to their website and you can see the fees: $215 to $280 this time of year to play before 1230. After 1230, $160.
I played Ocean Trails a few times when it was 15 holes open, unlimited play, summer weekday afternoons for $35 circa 2001.
I remember shooting +8 on the front 8, and followed by -2 on the back 7 one time.
Astravides,
How do those costs compare to the other available courses in the area ?
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I don't really know, Pat. I moved away in 2003.
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Pat--
There aren't a lot of other 18-hole courses very close to Trump LA. One is Los Verdes; peak rate there is $36.50 (not including cart).
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Click to their website and you can see the fees: $215 to $280 this time of year to play before 1230. After 1230, $160.
I played Ocean Trails a few times when it was 15 holes open, unlimited play, summer weekday afternoons for $35 circa 2001.
I remember shooting +8 on the front 8, and followed by -2 on the back 7 one time.
Astravides,
How do those costs compare to the other available courses in the area ?
I can answer that. Substantially more expensive than the lone 18 hole public course, Los Verdes ($49 peak rate I think) but as has been mentioned it is plagued by 6 hour rounds.
Terrenea is a 9 hole par 3 course, but similarly high end at $40. The architecture is much much better and I would rather play there 4 times than Trump once...
The next closest public course is 20 miles away, crowded, and not spectacular (whether it be in Long Beach or Torrance).
There are a couple private courses in Palos Verdes.
Palos Verdes Country Club is approaching hidden gem status with some very good recent work to restore bunkers, expand greens, and remove trees. It is available for outside play at $220 I think. It has some amazing views of the ocean and the LA basin, however not on every single hole like Trump has. It is a much better golf course though.
Rolling Hills CC is (seemingly constantly) about to engage in a land swap and completely rebuild their club and course. The new design is supposedly a DMK effort and there is potential for a very good course to emerge. Currently, Rolling Hills is a tight, slightly overgrown Ted Robinson design.
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Thanks Alex. I'll add that at daily fee courses in the greater Los Angeles area, Trump LA has to be at or near the highest green fee. For example Pelican Hill in Orange County considers itself high end/luxury and it is at $290.
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Pat, Here is an image that I took from the course one glorious day in 2012 where I more or less had the entire course to myself and the hospitality of Trump LA and staff was off the charts fantastic. I think you of all people know how much I detest "extra" service! However, on that particular day it was important to me and I'm still grateful for it--grateful for any day to be swinging a golf club on any course. Some of you are aware of my personal struggles. The staff there that day literally welcomed me with open arms! I will never forget that. EVER!
(http://i57.tinypic.com/fk1eld.jpg)
So maybe I might not be the best critique for really taking the course to task to the point that I'd like to demo it and rebuild again--and trust me, that's what I would love to do. But that would mean putting some pretty special people out of work for a period of time and I'm not for that at all. Still, I hope that I can talk about what I would have done, visualize what the property could be--the type of course that would be fun, not necessarily long, but demand on thinking your way around the golf course of the great strategic merits that could have been on this property.
I do this with complete respect of what they have there now and how a certain faction of customer thats manages to keep the course busy with play.
So here goes!
Little attention was paid to utilizing the positive, sometimes seemingly over the top factors of this property with the initial routing; QUIRK. There were several opportunities to create wild downhill holes with a backdrop of nothing but Pacific Ocean. The downhill nature of the holes could have been offset by prevailing winds further making long downhill holes even longer; short down hill holes even further and vice versus going uphill. The site is a very easy one to create something very non-memorable, but also creating something unforgettable. With exception to the closing holes, none of the holes should have ever been aimed back to back in the same direction while at the same time, great care to utilize the several drainage ravines for side and crossing hazards. There should have been some sort of routing style utilizing triangular routing patterns, because thats the best way to go out and get back while changing directions. The amount of earth moved--and I say this having sat out there one day seeing massive earth moving scrappers rip apart this beautiful piece of property. I don't have an exact routing in mind at this present time, but I've got a pretty good vision of it because I've used Trump LA as my own personal model for understanding how to route a golf course. This should make me an open target for hunting season, so be it!
The idea would be to create corridors capable of containing/utilizing existing strategic elements that provide quirky, fun, yet challenging Sportsman golf: The guy that wants to be challenged time and time again.
The site in 1994:(There were many routing concepts with this land. You pick one, ask for more from the environmentalists taking it into absurd areas you know they'll never go for and you'll eventually get the routing you really want!)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/j0h66w.jpg)
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Great picture Tommy of the land before it became a golf course. I think I prefer the land bare and without a course.
Remember this was built by some guys who decided that Perry Dye was right, he could build great courses on a small parcel of land. It was never going to be world class. The site yes, but the amount of land dictated a shorter course, something neither Perry Dye nor the developers would accept.
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The focus on this piece of land has always been on the real estate development value (i.e. McMansions with a view) with the golf only there as a marketing aid to sell the houses and to offer the Coastal Commission something more attractive for the coastline than rows of houses lining the cliffs. I think the Zuckermans probably wanted to squeeze the course in closest to the cliffs because they figured (or even knew) that it was more unstable than further up the property and would be tougher for spec homes to get loans than if the homes were further away from the edge.
I don't know the acreage of the course, but I suspect the idea was to squeeze it into a small footprint so as to leave more room for the housing lots. They wanted a "name" architect for marketing but I doubt they cared whether it was an architecturally significant course as long as it was pretty to look at. Also the course would provide a more pleasing view from the terraces of mansions that would traverse the hill as it descended from PV drive to the water than if a series of homes hung on the edge of the cliff. Presumably the coastal commission would prefer that as well.
I think Trump feels the same way about the course. He's a smart guy and a pretty good player. He knows damn well the course is nothing close to a world class venue, but he can say whatever he wants and then buyer beware (if the buyer really cares about that sort of thing). It's worked for him before and if it ain't broke.......
I think the Z's rolled the dice on things remaining stable long enough for them to sell enough houses to make a profit. They lost when the landslide occurred. They are lucky that nobody was seriously hurt or killed as might have happened if the 'dozers had been on the edge at the time.
I don't remember the details, but Trump ended up getting a great "bargain" when he bought the course and developable land. As I recall the insurance company was picking up the lions share of the repair of the golf course, which has been estimated at from $60 to $200 million (the latter being the number Trump uses). Trump's cost was something like $25 million and I think Textron lent him most of that money which was used to redo the course and complete the monstrous(ity) clubhouse. He basically got the lots for free when all was said and done....and that's the land he really wanted.
I have no idea if he's made money on the lots (probably is doing well with those now), but the golf course is only there to compliment the lots and I would bet that the majority of those McMansion owners probably believe his line about "better than Pebble...etc." because of the incredible views.
The course is awful and i agree with Alex that I would rather play the 9 hole Terranea pitch/putt than Trump any day. I think there are often rates there much lower than the $40 Alex mentioned, especially for local PV residents, twilight, etc. I paid $25 for a twilight (4pm) rate a few years ago and had a blast playing the course with friends followed by a cocktail watching the sunset over Catalina. Los Verdes, though in much better shape than it used to be, is a 6 hour round if you tee off later than 7:30 a.m. I'm told (by my son-in-law to be) that they actually sell pre-dawn tee times...which he and buddies have done!
As for other daily fee options, unless you live in PV, it takes 20-30 minutes driving on the peninsula to get to Trump. From my house in Manhattan Beach I can get to Rustic in about 45-50 minutes on a Saturday morning (about 50 miles-all freeway). It takes 35-40 minutes to travel the winding streets of PV to get the 20 miles to Trump. Guess where I'd rather drive for my golf...and MB is considered "close" to PV by L.A. standards.
My friends living in PV area say that the best part of the Trump course is the Sunday buffet...which is supposed to be fantastic. He also does a roaring wedding and catering business...and does it very very well by all accounts.
It is what it is.
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Here is an image overlaid inn Gogle Earth of at the Royal Palms:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/ao2bgl.jpg)
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Tommy,
I'm shocked that as of 1994, that this property wasn't already populated with large homes.
We're there restrictions on the land vis a vis the CCC
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Pat, if anything, the city of Pslos Verdes is in much more difficult to work with then the CCC. (From what I've heard). They're very bullish on development, but then oddly, the property they should have protected more was utilized for single-family dwellings. LARGE UPSCALE single-family dwellings!
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Tommy,
Look at that site.
How is it possible that a bad golf course landed on it.
And, look at how they cut into the mountain in the upper left
(http://i60.tinypic.com/j0h66w.jpg)
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There were several opportunities to create wild downhill holes with a backdrop of nothing but Pacific Ocean. The downhill nature of the holes could have been offset by prevailing winds further making long downhill holes even longer; short down hill holes even further and vice versus going uphill.
Like this? One of the funnerest shots in golf.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Pinnacle%20Point/L1080205.jpg~original) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/MSBIII/media/Pinnacle%20Point/L1080205.jpg.html)
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PGA Grand Slam event relocating from Bermuda to the "spectacular" Trump National LA
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/3/10/pgas-grand-slam-moving-to-trump-national-la.html
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PGA Grand Slam event relocating from Bermuda to the "spectacular" Trump National LA
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/3/10/pgas-grand-slam-moving-to-trump-national-la.html
How will Mr. Trump have time for this AND his Presidential campaign?!?
WW
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Business is down at Trump National GC LA. Bigly.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-the-presidency-good-for-trumps-business-not-necessarily-at-this-golf-course/2017/07/17/bda894be-670a-11e7-a1d7-9a32c91c6f40_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-the-presidency-good-for-trumps-business-not-necessarily-at-this-golf-course/2017/07/17/bda894be-670a-11e7-a1d7-9a32c91c6f40_story.html?utm_term=.b45fd8438375)
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Business is down at Trump National GC LA. Bigly.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-the-presidency-good-for-trumps-business-not-necessarily-at-this-golf-course/2017/07/17/bda894be-670a-11e7-a1d7-9a32c91c6f40_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-the-presidency-good-for-trumps-business-not-necessarily-at-this-golf-course/2017/07/17/bda894be-670a-11e7-a1d7-9a32c91c6f40_story.html?utm_term=.b45fd8438375)
Howard, can you cut and paste the content of the article please? WaPo requires a subscription.
Thanks.
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Ian,
I go to that site almost every day, no subscription required! :)
P.S. Interesting article on Trump LA pre-campaign to now...my only surprise was I thought the revenue hits would be even bigger.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-the-presidency-good-for-trumps-business-not-necessarily-at-this-golf-course/2017/07/17/bda894be-670a-11e7-a1d7-9a32c91c6f40_story.html?utm_term=.f91453c1a0cd
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If it is bad now what happens if comrade Trumpsky is tried for treason and impeached. Jimmy Kimmel said the Trump family is like the Corleones if they were all Fredo. LOL.
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If it is bad now what happens if comrade Trumpsky is tried for treason and impeached. Jimmy Kimmel said the Trump family is like the Corleones if they were all Fredo. LOL.
I would like to think that, on the big national stage:
1) you get what you deserve in the end
2) you reap what you sow
3) actions matter, words fill empty spaces
4) you can't ditch your past as it eventually catches up to you
If Trump is clean with a clear conscious, then he has nothing to worry about.
If not, then "God speed to you, Robert Mueller."
Mark Cuban said that he believed that by 2023, Trump would be bankrupt and that his past actions would all catch up to him.
Candidly, and I personally do not wish ill on him and his family, I am surprised that his assets abroad have not been a soft target for extremists.
[/size]Nothing would kill business faster than knowing that another Trump property could be next.[size=78%]
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He only ran for office to promote his brand and despite some hiccups, I'm sure the Trump brand is doing just fine. That may change in the unlikely event that he gets impeached. Rather, it seems like Manafort and Flynn will "wear the jacket" for this cabal of morons.