Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on December 19, 2014, 11:36:57 PM
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The 17th at Streamsong Blue.
A golf hole that requires, repeat, requires three good approach shots.
Miss one shot and you can pretty much write "par" off.
Challenge on the drive.
Great decision making and execution required on the second.
Challenging 3rd.
And, once on the green, you still have a lot of work to do.
The cross bunkers make a good par 5 a great par 5.
The fronting bunker, confronted from an uphill lie, adds more doubt to the golfers mind and more difficulty in the execution.
This is the kind of par 5 that you just can't cruise and make a par, you have to work hard.
And, each shot, has an enormous influence over the following shot/s.
Is there a better par 5 on the property ?
Which Par 5 is next ?
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Every par 5 at Streamsong is very good and unique. 17 Blue is excellent, but I prefer 7 Red.
I think 7 Red makes a golfer think more than 17 Blue and requires supreme commitment on each shot. With 17B the sole question posed is "can you clear the bunkers with the second shot?"
with 7R the aggressive player must hug the lake for any hope of getting home in 2. On the layup, the inverted bunker calls for the 2nd to be played towards the pond in order for a clean look on the third.
totally agree that 17 Blue is a great par 5, but I've never played anything like Red 7.
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Every par 5 at Streamsong is very good and unique. 17 Blue is excellent, but I prefer 7 Red.
I think 7 Red makes a golfer think more than 17 Blue and requires supreme commitment on each shot.
With 17B the sole question posed is "can you clear the bunkers with the second shot?"
Where is there any similar decision on # 7 Red ?
Are there any decisions to be made on # 7 Red when hitting your second ?
And, are the consequences anywhere near as dire as missing your second on the Blue and ending up in the cross bunker ?
with 7R the aggressive player must hug the lake for any hope of getting home in 2.
I would disagree.
The angle from the far side of the 7th fairway presents an easier angle into the green, one that doesn't require carrying the enormous fronting bunker.
You can roll the ball onto the 7th green from the right side of the fairway.
You can't do that from close to the lake.
On the layup, the inverted bunker calls for the 2nd to be played towards the pond in order for a clean look on the third.
I don't see the greenside mound as a significant impediment on the third shot, even if the pin is cut behind it, which it was the other day.
totally agree that 17 Blue is a great par 5, but I've never played anything like Red 7.
I like # 7 Red, but, put it behind # 17 Blue in terms of "demand".
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Josh,
I don't think that the putting surface on # 7 Red requires the same degree of skill as the putting surface on # 17 Blue, on the approach, recovery and putting.
I wouldn't say that the green at # 7 is benign, but, I wouldn't consider it "threatening.
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I love #17 on Blue. When I first played it, it immediately reminded me of Bethpage Black #4... I wonder if Doak drew any inspiration from it?
You're def right though- it requires 3 great shots to a very challenging green
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Interesting thought on the comparison to Bethpage #4--I had a similar feeling. 17 Blue is such a great hole. It also introduces a feature that isn't seen much on the property--trees! The cross bunkers totally make the hole though
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Pat, have you played the hole into a strong headwind? The first time I played the hole it was moderately downwind and the decision making on the second shot made the hole. Into the wind, playing in a threesome of decent golfers, there was absolutely no option to clear the cross bunkers on any line, even after a well-played tee shot. Turned the hole into a bit of a slog.
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I love #17 on Blue. When I first played it, it immediately reminded me of Bethpage Black #4... I wonder if Doak drew any inspiration from it?
Todd,
I've heard a lot of golfers draw the same comparison.
You're def right though- it requires 3 great shots to a very challenging green
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Pat, have you played the hole into a strong headwind? The first time I played the hole it was moderately downwind and the decision making on the second shot made the hole. Into the wind, playing in a threesome of decent golfers, there was absolutely no option to clear the cross bunkers on any line, even after a well-played tee shot. Turned the hole into a bit of a slog.
Mark,
I have, I've played it where getting over the cross bunkers in two was beyond my ability.
But, so what ?
So many holes change their personality and playing characteristics when the wind changes direction and velocity.
By the same token, on the day where I can't get over the cross bunkers on # 17, I'll probably get home in two on # 2.
And, # 18 will certainly play like a par 5, but, # 1 might be driveable.
I don't think you can judge a hole by only one wind direction and/or velocity unless it's overwhelmingly prevailing
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Pat, have you played the hole into a strong headwind? The first time I played the hole it was moderately downwind and the decision making on the second shot made the hole. Into the wind, playing in a threesome of decent golfers, there was absolutely no option to clear the cross bunkers on any line, even after a well-played tee shot. Turned the hole into a bit of a slog.
Mark,
I have, I've played it where getting over the cross bunkers in two was beyond my ability.
But, so what ?
So many holes change their personality and playing characteristics when the wind changes direction and velocity.
By the same token, on the day where I can't get over the cross bunkers on # 17, I'll probably get home in two on # 2.
And, # 18 will certainly play like a par 5, but, # 1 might be driveable.
I don't think you can judge a hole by only one wind direction and/or velocity unless it's overwhelmingly prevailing
I'm with Patrick here. Certianly some holes play better/worse when the wind is blowing a specific direction. But like Patrick noted, there are usually other holes that play easier if one hole is playing into a still wind. In another thread we have been talking about the fact that ground golf is more fun because of all of the variables. A windy day is one more variable that should keep you coming back for more.
I'm playing Streamsong on Tuesday for the first time, so hopefully I don't change my mind about these holes!
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17 at Streamsong Blue is a "real" par 5... reminds me a bit of the 14th at Cuscowilla: http://www.cuscowilla.com/testimonials/
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I agree it's a great par 5. Either its been removed or I'm not seeing well today but I made the 4th at the Black comparison in your whiny golfer threat.
I do disagree slightly. The premium is on keeping the ball out of the fairway (waste areas) off the tee on 17. If you succeed in that the second shot is visually intimidating but not difficult. It was maybe 180 yards to carry the cross bunkers. Safely over them was 120 yard third shot or less. I turned my second shot over more than I wanted too and still only had a wedge in. What does add some additional thinking into the second shot is making sure you carry the cross bunkers but don't go thru the fairway into the bunkers on the far side of the fairway. It's a "target" golf shot unless you hit directly at the green which if I remember correctly had some over hanging trees down the right side and some waste areas.
Hit your drive in a bunker and your looking at bogie. I think it's all about the drive on 17.
The green looked pretty difficult but the day I played I think I had some of the easier hole locations. Pin was center back and I was above the hole where you had to trickle it down, take a happy par and move on.
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Pat, have you played the hole into a strong headwind? The first time I played the hole it was moderately downwind and the decision making on the second shot made the hole. Into the wind, playing in a threesome of decent golfers, there was absolutely no option to clear the cross bunkers on any line, even after a well-played tee shot. Turned the hole into a bit of a slog.
Mark:
I struggled with that a bit when we were building the hole. However, I decided that the position of the bunkers was such that if you couldn't carry them, getting right up close to the bunkers with your second shot would be rewarded by the possibility of getting home with your third.
I saw just that when we had our Renaissance Cup event there; the winning team was a father-son duo from Crystal Downs, and the father [a great player but not a long hitter at all] laid up just short of the bunkers and then knocked his third shot onto the green to effectively end the match.
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Patrick,
I think the greens side mound causes a lot of the decision making on the second shot, probably more importantly if you are going for the green in two. # 7 is short enough that a lot of players can give it a go in two. With a long club in your hand, it will be really tough to hold the green on a direct line over the bunker in front. The greens are so firm when I have played there. It would take a precision, draw to thread it between the mound and front bunker with a long club as another option. That leads to my favorite option for birdie....lay it out right, green high. With a front or middle pin, you can stay right, but probably don't want to be pass front edge yardage for a clear look. The green is so long, with a back pin, you could play toward the back edge yardage, past the mound, and have another clear chip at the pin. I have had the mound in my way before. You are hitting a high shot, off tight turf, and you can't see much of the flag. Not an easy up and down! I think that little mound adds some great interest, fun, and decision making to that hole!
Tim
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The green looked pretty difficult but the day I played I think I had some of the easier hole locations. Pin was center back and I was above the hole where you had to trickle it down, take a happy par and move on.
I certainly agree with the difficulty of the green. One of my two rounds there the pin was in the bowl in the front left and I was on the tier above. What fun, I asked Doc the caddy to move the bag he laid on the frog hair well off to the right, and ricocheted my putt off that short grass where it took a great circle route slowly down by the hole. An entertaining putt, I probably played twenty feet right of the direct line!
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Josh,
I don't think that the putting surface on # 7 Red requires the same degree of skill as the putting surface on # 17 Blue, on the approach, recovery and putting.
I wouldn't say that the green at # 7 is benign, but, I wouldn't consider it "threatening.
Pat,
you're correct in that aspect. I think generally the Red course has less challenging greens.
I would also agree with you that 17 Blue is far more demanding, but I think its more of a do or die proposition. It does demand you hit certain shots, and you're either able to perform or not. That is where I prefer 7 Red, in that its options are a bit more subtle, but no less challenging if you want to birdie the hole.
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One of the great par fives of the world,class from start to finish.
Not only challenging but also a visual treat, the biggest compliment one can give the hole is to say that Mr Mackenzie would have loved it
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I agree it's a great par 5. Either its been removed or I'm not seeing well today but I made the 4th at the Black comparison in your whiny golfer threat.
I do disagree slightly. The premium is on keeping the ball out of the fairway (waste areas) off the tee on 17. If you succeed in that the second shot is visually intimidating but not difficult.
A good deal depends upon your lie.
One of the fellows in our group, a 4 handicap, hit a good drive down the left side, but, had a downhill lie on a mound in the fairway.
He didn't clear the bunker
It was maybe 180 yards to carry the cross bunkers.
Safely over them was 120 yard third shot or less. I turned my second shot over more than I wanted too and still only had a wedge in.
If you had 120 yards in, you had a slightly uncomfortable lie.
Especially if the hole was cut in the front left of the green, behind the gaping bunker.
What does add some additional thinking into the second shot is making sure you carry the cross bunkers but don't go thru the fairway into the bunkers on the far side of the fairway. It's a "target" golf shot unless you hit directly at the green which if I remember correctly had some over hanging trees down the right side and some waste areas.
Hit your drive in a bunker and your looking at bogie. I think it's all about the drive on 17.
I'd love to bet you on making par, after you've hit your drive. ;D
The green looked pretty difficult but the day I played I think I had some of the easier hole locations.
Pin was center back and I was above the hole where you had to trickle it down, take a happy par and move on.
That's certainly a benign hole location with no fronting bunker to worry about.
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Patrick,
I think the greens side mound causes a lot of the decision making on the second shot, probably more importantly if you are going for the green in two.
Tim, we had a good deal of discussion on that.
That mound has more of an impact if the hole is cut in the back half of the green.
When the hole is cut in the front of the green, that mound shouldn't come into play.
# 7 is short enough that a lot of players can give it a go in two.
With a long club in your hand, it will be really tough to hold the green on a direct line over the bunker in front.
True, but only a moron would take that line knowing how firm and fast those greens are.
If the hole is cut in the back of the green, missing that green to the right isn't a bad play
The greens are so firm when I have played there. It would take a precision, draw to thread it between the mound and front bunker with a long club as another option.
But there's no need to.
That mound is close to the middle of the green
If the hole is cut in the front, there's no need to come close to that mound.
If the hole is cut in the middle or in the back, that changes things.
So much depends on how you're striking the ball for the first 6 1/3 holes.
To a degree, the debate and decision on shot selection depends upon the golfer's "golfing IQ.
# 7 Red is certainly an interesting, challenging and fun hole to play.
That leads to my favorite option for birdie....lay it out right, green high. With a front or middle pin, you can stay right, but probably don't want to be pass front edge yardage for a clear look. The green is so long, with a back pin, you could play toward the back edge yardage, past the mound, and have another clear chip at the pin. I have had the mound in my way before. You are hitting a high shot, off tight turf, and you can't see much of the flag. Not an easy up and down! I think that little mound adds some great interest, fun, and decision making to that hole!
I think Lob Wedges have made the 3rd shot easier.
Certainly those firm, fast greens place a premium on crisp execution.
But, planning, thinking, can ameliorate some of the difficulty the golfer faces on a 3rd shot into that green.
And, the wind has a significant influence on the play of the hole.
Irrespective of our thoughts on how to play the hole, I think most would agree that it's a fun hole to play
Tim
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I agree it's a great par 5. Either its been removed or I'm not seeing well today but I made the 4th at the Black comparison in your whiny golfer threat.
I do disagree slightly. The premium is on keeping the ball out of the fairway (waste areas) off the tee on 17. If you succeed in that the second shot is visually intimidating but not difficult.
A good deal depends upon your lie.
One of the fellows in our group, a 4 handicap, hit a good drive down the left side, but, had a downhill lie on a mound in the fairway.
He didn't clear the bunker
It was maybe 180 yards to carry the cross bunkers.
Safely over them was 120 yard third shot or less. I turned my second shot over more than I wanted too and still only had a wedge in.
If you had 120 yards in, you had a slightly uncomfortable lie.
Especially if the hole was cut in the front left of the green, behind the gaping bunker.
What does add some additional thinking into the second shot is making sure you carry the cross bunkers but don't go thru the fairway into the bunkers on the far side of the fairway. It's a "target" golf shot unless you hit directly at the green which if I remember correctly had some over hanging trees down the right side and some waste areas.
Hit your drive in a bunker and your looking at bogie. I think it's all about the drive on 17.
I'd love to bet you on making par, after you've hit your drive. ;D
The green looked pretty difficult but the day I played I think I had some of the easier hole locations.
Pin was center back and I was above the hole where you had to trickle it down, take a happy par and move on.
That's certainly a benign hole location with no fronting bunker to worry about.
Of course a bad lie could make a difference, so could a bad swing. If I hit that fairway under normal playing conditions (not into a heavy wind) I'm not worried about carrying the cross bunkers.
My lie was not uncomfortable. It was a level lie to a back pin. Simple wedge shot and I agree the bunkers were not an issue to the pin that day.
From the fairway I would take your bet and win more times than lose.
I think it's a great par 5. Premium on the tee ball. Visually spectacular.
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From the fairway I would take your bet and win more times than lose.
Rob,
The betting window is open for that wager as well.
I hope we get the chance to meet at Streamsong.
I think it's a great par 5. Premium on the tee ball. Visually spectacular.