Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim_Kennedy on December 19, 2014, 03:40:24 PM
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10 clubs.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7527/16058072212_4430084a18_b.jpg)
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Lawson Little won the US Open (1940), 2 US Am's and 2 British Am's carrying as many as 26 clubs in his bag. Fortunately for him he did not have to carry his bag. ;)
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Vardon - 6 Opens - 1 US Open - 60+ tournament wins in all - Little's bag should have been littler. ;)
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Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground? That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago. Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?
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Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.
Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)
Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." I was surprised he played golf!
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Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground? That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago. Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?
RJ,
How many clubs would you need if the ground was truly firm and fast? I think 8 would be more than enough, but sadly, we'll never see it on Tour as there's too much money in club endorsements.
Scenario: Someone in the field is going to win using 8 clubs - imagine the potential loss of revenue from club sales if the idea catches on w/the general public. :o
Peter,
http://www.hickorygolf.com/about-clubs-1900--.html
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Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.
Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)
Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." I was surprised he played golf!
Sounds like Harry had a driver, 2 and 4 and 7 woods (cleek lofted), 2, 3, 5, 9, putter. The second mashie may have been a spade mashie (6) or mashie niblick (7). Lot of long clubs, not many finesse clubs!
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In his book, "The Gist Of Golf", he wrote:
"There are many golfers who feel that they must have at least a dozen or fourteen. Seven or eight ought to be ample - the driver, brassie, cleek, iron, mashie, niblick, and putter, perhaps, a jigger added to the equipment to give a sense of security.....I confess that, on important occasions, I carry eleven clubs, but three of these are spares and are seldom employed."
And in "The Complete Golfer" he gave specs for his set:
Club. Length. Weight.
Driver 42 inches 12¾ oz.
Brassy 42 " 12½ "
Driving mashie 38 " 14½ "
Driving cleek 37 " 13½ "
Light cleek 37 " 13½ "
Iron 35½ " 15¼ "
Mashie 36½ " 15¼ "
Niblick 37 " 19 "
Putter 33½ " 15 "
(putting cleek)
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Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground? That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago. Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?
When was the suggestion by Bobby Jones? I heard it from another architect at an open meeting in St. Andrews a few years back ... just trying to see who stole it from whom.
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"An undue profusion of implements often leads to hesitation in the selection of a club for a particular shot, and a general state of confusion."
And
two mashies, but no mashie niblick - the one club Bobby Jones often thought wasn't quite right.
MM
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"An undue profusion of implements often leads to hesitation in the selection of a club for a particular shot, and a general state of confusion."
And
two mashies, but no mashie niblick - the one club Bobby Jones often thought wasn't quite right.
MM
If he carried two mashies, there had to be some differentiation. Otherwise why two? There's a big gap between mashie (5 iron) and niblick (9 or PW).
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Bill, there's regular mashies, spade mashies, deep mashies, all of various lofts.
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One of the better thread titles in recent memory, even if it should be OT...
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One of the better thread titles in recent memory, even if it should be OT...
He was an architect. ;D
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TD, IIRC, the attribution to RTJjr, was in one of the magazines, and an interview of him. I wouldn't swear to it.
I am pretty sure we discussed the concept here on GCA, as well.
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Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?
I've just seen the light.
No need for longer courses. No need to rein back the ball. No need to for different rules for pros and amateurs.
Simply abolish the tee peg.
Brilliant!
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Bill, there's regular mashies, spade mashies, deep mashies, all of various lofts.
That's what I was trying to say. The article says he carried two mashies.
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Bill,
Vardon's second mashie is described here:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8579/15879707347_f35c9014e7_o.jpg)
The 'mongrel mashie' described here::
http://www.hickorygolf.com/about-clubs-1900--.html
The full article, probably the one that was condensed for the Bogalusa article:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZH19131009.2.126.8
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Based upon that article, it sounds very much like the second mashie was a spade mashie rather than mongrel mashie. The spade mashie was inherently a get out of trouble club while the mongrel mashie was much more similar to a long iron and ill suited for getting a ball out of rough. Even going beyond the "sub-mashies" that were common in a players bag of the hickory era, it was also common for a player to carry 2 very similar true mashies. They were often only slightly different but could be used to play a wide variety of shots. often one would have a weaker or longer shaft that made it play differently. Since the mashie was considered the standard approach club it was good to carry two similar clubs to expand one's approach capabilities. Also, a mashie would be more similar to a modern 7 iron, not a 5 iron.
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Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.
Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)
Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." I was surprised he played golf!
Sounds like Harry had a driver, 2 and 4 and 7 woods (cleek lofted), 2, 3, 5, 9, putter. The second mashie may have been a spade mashie (6) or mashie niblick (7). Lot of long clubs, not many finesse clubs!
It's also possible that the cleek was an iron. I have both wooden and iron cleeks in my assortment of hickories.
I also have a bulldog, which is about the same as a 7 wood.
K
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Based upon that article, it sounds very much like the second mashie was a spade mashie rather than mongrel mashie. The spade mashie was inherently a get out of trouble club while the mongrel mashie was much more similar to a long iron and ill suited for getting a ball out of rough. Even going beyond the "sub-mashies" that were common in a players bag of the hickory era, it was also common for a player to carry 2 very similar true mashies. They were often only slightly different but could be used to play a wide variety of shots. often one would have a weaker or longer shaft that made it play differently. Since the mashie was considered the standard approach club it was good to carry two similar clubs to expand one's approach capabilities. Also, a mashie would be more similar to a modern 7 iron, not a 5 iron.
My understanding has always been that the mashie was 5 iron equal and mashie niblick was the 7 iron equal, half way between mashie and niblick. As always I could be completely wrong!
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A near mint Harry Vardon Mongrel Mashie for sale on eBay currently.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Antique-HARRY-VARDON-Scotland-MONGREL-MASHIE-Wood-Shaft-Golf-Club-WOW-/311216445747?pt=Golf_Clubs&hash=item4875f21933
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Bill,
I agree with Ben on his club comments. Harry was probably referring the spade mashie to get out of the rough. The bigger face and lack of bounce makes that club go thru rough like a machete. The ball comes out remarkably well.
As for the mashie niblick, in my bag it is much closer to a 9 iron, especially with its distinct shape.
Interesting to see Vardon have his bag weighted toward longer clubs. I think current hickory players carry more than one niblick as opposed to more than one brassie.
Cheers, Mike
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Bill,
I agree with Ben on his club comments. Harry was probably referring the spade mashie to get out of the rough. The bigger face and lack of bounce makes that club go thru rough like a machete. The ball comes out remarkably well.
As for the mashie niblick, in my bag it is much closer to a 9 iron, especially with its distinct shape.
Interesting to see Vardon have his bag weighted toward longer clubs. I think current hickory players carry more than one niblick as opposed to more than one brassie.
Cheers, Mike
Lots of variations. I have a Laurie Auchterlonie mashie niblick I bought from the shop in St Andrews and it's close to my 8 iron in loft.
Merry Christmas Mike!
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For us on this this side of the pond.....not much of a tune, but what a classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo9fEADUqPs
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Harry was quite the wordsmith, nay, even the poet!
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My understanding has always been that the mashie was 5 iron equal and mashie niblick was the 7 iron equal, half way between mashie and niblick. As always I could be completely wrong!
A Mashie Iron is more similar to a 5 iron, while a Mashie is closer to a 7. I think in a lot of ways the loss in translation is how we today think of the word iron describing a category of club while at the time an iron was a specific club. The basic hickory set is made up of Irons, Mashies, and Niblicks. With the combination clubs (Mashie-Iron, Mashie-Niblick) bridging the gaps. In a lot of ways the Iron or Mid-Iron were interchangeable and played like a modern 3 iron, the Mashie like a modern 7 iron, and the Niblick like the modern wedge. I want to point out that I use the phrase 'played like' as often times while the measurable specs of a club might put it more in line with another modern club, the practice of using said club often produces a different result. This is very true with the clubs at each end of the spectrum as niblicks rarely play in a similar fashion to modern wedges and Mid Irons or longer of hickory rarely play like a modern long iron.
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Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?
I've just seen the light.
No need for longer courses. No need to rein back the ball. No need to for different rules for pros and amateurs.
Simply abolish the tee peg.
Brilliant!
Or let them use a tee, but can only carry 8 clubs and no club can be of a loft more than 45 degrees.
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I came across this thread from Ben about Harry Vardon's opinion of golf course architecture and thought it needed referencing here -
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40586.0.html
and this is Royal Jersey GC, complete with it's epic opening hole, the course that is now located on the common land where he started to play as a lad -
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55239.0.html
atb
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I've been reading a copy of The Australian Golfer, written by Dan Soutar and published in 1906. There's some fascinating content. It features among many other interesting tidbits, a table (including weights) of Vardon's clubs, as well as lists of the clubs (and their lengths) as used by the great triumvirate and Soutar.
As presented, Vardon was the only one to use a niblick. Soutar (designer of Kingston Heath and several other courses) also carried ten clubs, which included a spare driver, and his most lofted iron was a mashie niblick, whereas Braid and Taylor both relied upon a mashie as their most lofted club.
Vardon's ten clubs, as listed in Soutar's book, closely resemble those presented in the article at the start of this thread, with the exception of a direct reference to the mongrel mashie. Soutar seemed to know of Vardon's preference to carry both a driving mashie and driving cleek.
MM
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Also interesting to note that Ralph Livingston's set included a mongrel mashie.
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I've been reading a copy of The Australian Golfer, written by Dan Soutar and published in 1906. There's some fascinating content. It features among many other interesting tidbits, a table (including weights) of Vardon's clubs, as well as lists of the clubs (and their lengths) as used by the great triumvirate and Soutar.
As presented, Vardon was the only one to use a niblick. Soutar (designer of Kingston Heath and several other courses) also carried ten clubs, which included a spare driver, and his most lofted iron was a mashie niblick, whereas Braid and Taylor both relied upon a mashie as their most lofted club.
Vardon's ten clubs, as listed in Soutar's book, closely resemble those presented in the article at the start of this thread, with the exception of a direct reference to the mongrel mashie. Soutar seemed to know of Vardon's preference to carry both a driving mashie and driving cleek.
MM
Braid and Taylor must have been geniuses to get out of bunkers like Strath without at least a niblick. Or did they just not get in them? ;D
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I suspect that manufacturing very lofted irons might have been pretty difficult in the early days. The models I've seen have, unlike more modern wedges, rather a lot of metal in the lower hosel area, between the hosel and the top edge of the head, akin to webbing between fingers, I imagine to maintain strength. No reason to not use one though, if available.
Atb
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This link speak with reasonable authority and detail on Francis Ouimet's set. Interestingly - again only 10 clubs.
http://www.thegolfballfactory.com/Hall-of-Champions/what-was-in-francis-ouimet's-golf-bag.htm
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I carry 'only' 13 clubs at present.
I wonder whether a 'mongrel mashie' might be a good addition to my set, for play out of long grass.
Do you think Callaway will 'develop' and market such a club? If they did, how many other manufacturers would follow? The new 'hybrid' club.
James B
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James,
The specs given on Ralph Livingston's site for a mongrel mashie make it sound like a modern day six iron.