Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tim_Cronin on December 17, 2014, 02:41:27 PM
-
With today's announcement, this is timely, I think. There isn't much. Easier to find a 1957 Studebaker.
http://www.cubalinda.com/english/activities/golf/golfclubes.asp
-
My wife and I were talking about Cuba last week ... there are regular flights to Havana from Nassau. [And Toronto.]
I know Lou Duran will be here shortly to protest any relations with the Castro regime. When he comes, I hope he'll answer how the embargo has done anything to improve the plight of the people of Cuba, now that it's had 50+ years to show results.
-
I know Lou Duran will be here shortly to protest any relations with the Castro regime. When he comes, I hope he'll answer how the embargo has done anything to improve the plight of the people of Cuba, now that it's had 50+ years to show results.
...with a very friendly giant of a neighbour who is willing to help out at every opportunity ;)
Ciao
-
This is starting to look like an exciting election issue, but with Florida as a swing state I can't see US travel to Cuba getting easier any time soon. Had this whole embargo thing not been going on I'm sure Cuba would already have a few world beaters. I dk much about the soil they have, but Cuba is one heck of a beautiful country, and it deserves a few quality courses.
-
I went there a couple of years ago from San Jose Costa rica with no problem except that you cannot use an US credit card. The little I have researched there tends to make me believe we may be a little late to the party. Hotels such as Melia etc already have inroads and we may have shot ourselves in the foot there.....Germany, Canada are ahead of us by a few years. But it will be a great spot...
-
Well, Tom Doak, I don't want to disappoint you but I am still waiting on the Koch brothers and the Miami branch of the Cuban Mafia to send me my talking points.
Perhaps my thought leaders would not object to me saying that generally, relations are good; more so when they are bilateral. As to the Cuban people who don't even possess the most basic of hygienic products, it is not the U.S. embargo that has created this tragedy. Some 190+ countries trade freely with the Castros. I doubt that Cubans have any trouble getting anything they want at prevailing market prices if only they had the money to afford it.
Besides, American companies can sell "humanitarian" supplies such as food, drugs, and medical supplies to Cuba. As far as I know, the only restrictions are in the terms, C.O.D., hardly a harsh imposition on a government which summarily expropriated many billions of dollars from American companies and Cuban expatriates and is today a dead-beat debtor. Should you decide to build a course on the island, you may be well advised to get your money up front, and I don't mean in pesos. I think that our Canadian and Spanish friends in the hospitality and construction businesses might be able to provide some direction.
I do like the suggestion that for the embargo Cuba would have a "few world beaters". Apparently, only American architects and construction companies are capable of producing these things. The Castros' propaganda has worn thin on the island for a couple of decades. Apparently not so much in the ROW.
With Russia and Venezuela now on the ropes and a left wing American president, it makes great strategic sense for Raul to release a hostage in exchange for normalized relations and the prospects of huge amounts of American tourist dollars flowing into the island. For American firms which hadn't already formed partnerships with foreign companies to do business on the island, they may be disappointed to find that there is not much of consumer market in Cuba. Simply, the Cuban people today produce little and have no money.
BTW, the primary attraction of Cuba is that it is forbidden fruit, a land that time has forgotten. In terms of natural beauty, there are many, many places its equal without all the sad history. I do hear that the music is good, the booze cheap, and the girls for hire world-class. Some are even well educated- doctors, lawyers, teachers- and probably great conversationalists, in Spanish.
-
Mike,
In November of 2013, I played the back 9 at Varadero Golf Club located in the tourist resort town of the same name which is approximately two hours outside Havana. The resorts, where locals are neither allowed to stay or visit, cater mostly to Canadian and British tourists.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/540/MB6ARP.jpg)
The course was built on land that the communists nationalized (stole) from Irenee DuPont. His beautiful house named Xanadu which is now the club house was built in 1927. I believe that this is the only golf course which was permitted to remain open after the Revolution,
Here is the description of the course's history which I translated from a picture in the golf shop:
Though Herbert Strong designed the original 18-hole golf course, only 9 were eventually built following a design by Sim Cuthrie. The first four holes were built on natural soil, while the others required filling. The golf course was started in December 1931, and shortly after completion, in September 1933, was hit by a hurricane that swept away with greens and fairways from holes 5 to 9. From April to December 1934, over US$ 10,000 worth of soil had to be dumped on the land and the golf course was fully operational again in 1936.
Varadero Golf Course was even the scene of a famous golf game between Ernesto Che Guevara and Mr Castro in 1959. Today the course stands at 6,856 yards (par 72) and is beautifully maintained. Stylistically think beachfront links along a gorgeous coastline mixed with tropical parkland and Florida lakes. Re-designed by Canadian Les Furber the two loops of nine-holes are challenging yet fair with greens that reward good play.
A photograph of the match is framed prominently behind the restaurant's bar.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/911/qOOgus.jpg)
The course is unremarkable with the exception of the two closing holes. Here are my pictures.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/910/EWwbuJ.jpg)
The long par 3 17th which plays towards the ocean
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/540/U08jQv.jpg)
The view from the tee of the long par 4 18th hole with Xanadu in the background
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/538/0cWQYn.jpg)
The view back down the 18th fairway and towards the ocean
I hope you find this interesting.
-
As to the Cuban people who don't even possess the most basic of hygienic products, it is not the U.S. embargo that has created this tragedy. Some 190+ countries trade freely with the Castros. I doubt that Cubans have any trouble getting anything they want at prevailing market prices if only they had the money to afford it.
Besides, American companies can sell "humanitarian" supplies such as food, drugs, and medical supplies to Cuba. As far as I know, the only restrictions are in the terms, C.O.D., hardly a harsh imposition on a government which summarily expropriated many billions of dollars from American companies and Cuban expatriates and is today a dead-beat debtor.
With Russia and Venezuela now on the ropes and a left wing American president, it makes great strategic sense for Raul to release a hostage in exchange for normalized relations and the prospects of huge amounts of American tourist dollars flowing into the island. For American firms which hadn't already formed partnerships with foreign companies to do business on the island, they may be disappointed to find that there is not much of consumer market in Cuba. Simply, the Cuban people today produce little and have no money.
BTW, the primary attraction of Cuba is that it is forbidden fruit, a land that time has forgotten. In terms of natural beauty, there are many, many places its equal without all the sad history. I do hear that the music is good, the booze cheap, and the girls for hire world-class. Some are even well educated- doctors, lawyers, teachers- and probably great conversationalists, in Spanish.
Great points Lou. So if we become the 191st country, logic would tell us their 'economy' could be revived? I guess we could add them to the list of countries that hate our guts yet get our dollars.
Thanks for the pictures and the description Andrew.
-
My wife and I spent a week in Cuba earlier this year - we visited Varadero GC for the day. Cubas a unique cultural experience and , for Australians, its an intriguing bucket list type destination. We put together a 2 week tour incorporating Dom Rep (TOTD), Cuba and Cabo (heres a shout out to Greg Tallman). My wife is leading the tour which we sold out in a matter of weeks ....18 months before departure. You could not justify a trip to Cuba (from Australia) just for the golf. It took lots of juggling but I think we got the golf:non golf balance right.
-
An interesting Lou, and I am sure accurate assessment of the circumstances and reasons why it has not been attractive or viable for other non-US enterprises related to golf have not taken hold or succeeded.
I can't imagine any real enterprise taking hold unless the current regime and Castro associates are thrown out, or are sent packing by whatever means.
But honestly Lou, the embargo and 50 years of our one dimensional approach has not gotten the bums thrown out. Isn't it time to change our unsuccessful approach, and see if a different approach won' t work?
-
Lou: Thanks for your thoughts. You are right that the American embargo isn't the source of poverty in Cuba ... the local government there did a fine job of that without our help. However one would think that the denial of American tourist dollars, when America is Cuba's closest and richest neighbor, has discouraged investment in things like luxury hotels and good golf.
Andrew: Thanks for the pics of Varadero. What is going on with the structure to the left off the 18th tee? It looks like something I could hit.
-
I'm not so sure that it will produce great courses. But there is a long, long coastline and maybe there are some wonderful spots to capitalize on.
I do think it is more promising than my other speculation from a few years back. Remember that Tom?
Libya. Yes, really.
-
Lou: Thanks for your thoughts. You are right that the American embargo isn't the source of poverty in Cuba ... the local government there did a fine job of that without our help. However one would think that the denial of American tourist dollars, when America is Cuba's closest and richest neighbor, has discouraged investment in things like luxury hotels and good golf.
Andrew: Thanks for the pics of Varadero. What is going on with the structure to the left off the 18th tee? It looks like something I could hit.
+1 on all counts.
As for the idea that the island could produce great courses: It's a bit ridiculous to speculate whether it could or not, but cheap real estate and an influx of American currency as a result of it could produce some new layouts, and the benefit the island has now is that these courses would be built during the second Golden Age. I've always been intrigued by a photo I saw in Golf Has Never Failed Me, a Ross course in Havana, which is no longer in existence. It appears from the DR Society's website that he did two on the island, so that has to count for something, right?
Any chance at reclaiming those? ;D
-
I reckon someday there will be a regime change...probably sooner than later now. But, isn't that when all the real problems will start, making these sort of pipe dream developments of tourism industry, hotels, golf resorts, gambling and the like, total chaos when big money moves in, and so many of the cuban refugees here and other locales try to move back to reclaim family land taken or somehow lost after the revolution. It seems to me that some ugly stuff is going to fill that vacuum for a while.
-
Obama left wing! Really? That is great news. When did that happen? Was there a coup?
Up until now he has been disappointingly conservative.
-
A new thread needs to be started that can try to discuss the relationship, however tenuous & non-linear, between the political, social, economic versus the creative.
The US government finally found out the cold war is over. Maybe the Cuban regime will eventually learn of the news also.
This is bad news for the Mexican tourist trade. (Cancun, Acupulco)
-
Okay, I really need to quit opening these threads that I know will piss me off, and then I need to resist the urge/temptation/compulsion to post.
But the flesh is weak...so some random reflections.
One good thing is that this will reduce airfares for NAMBLA members and other sexual tourists in the near future.
Does the rejuvenation of moral vanity require/allow the baiting of Cuban refugees or we encouraged/mandated to mock others?
I do wonder how much more civility would reign on this board if Lou had somehow not managed to escape from Cuba. Think what an enviable, virtuous life he could have led in that island paradise. Just think how small his carbon footprint would have been. Just think how much more smug so many posters here could be if they didn't have standing up for those left behind. Just think how many divots he wouldn't have taken, how many balls he wouldn't have lost, what a crackerjack 1950s Chevrolet mechanic he would be. It makes me realize what a poor trade I made in acquiring Lou for a friend when I could have had him working on my 1957 Chevy if I could find a way to smuggle him out of Cuba. Now he's just a right wing nut job with declining golf skills.
And finally for Martin Toal, just how left wing would you like Obama to be? He has been somewhat constrained by the fact that his lurches to the left deprived him of both houses of congress which remain at least incidental to the governing process. He hasn't managed to go Kim Jong Un on us here, but there are two years remaining. What venerable left wing institutions would you like to see, a Cultural Revolution resulting in the deaths of millions, particularly those who wear glasses, have college educations, own golf clubs, etc? Or perhaps a Holodomor. Or would you settle for the nationalization of golf courses, particularly the top 100 that are currently private.
Just keep in mind that if your brave new world comes about that while I can virtually guarantee you will be in the re-education camps you probably won't be there as an instructor. We might be bunk mates, but we should keep the conversations about double plateaus, sedans, reverse cambers, etc to ourselves.
R. J. I suspect you are right that regime change isn't too far away but that has more to do with the expected shelf life of the Castros than anything this will accomplish. If they were interested in improving the lots of their subjects it would have happened a long time ago.
And whose notion is that if not for the embargo there would be great golf courses on the island. Are there no architects or construction firms other than here in the United States. I swear I met a few non-American architects in some of the GCA outings I attended. Probably all from the USA and just pretending to be Canadian or British.
And it's really not about left/right. It's about centralization and concentration of power. I understand the authoritarian impulse among those who are seeking wield it in elected or, in the case of the Castos, unelected office, but for those who will have to live under the increasingly constricting tentacles of it and call for more, please. Perhaps I need to go back and read The Unbearable Lightness of Being again, but most of all I need to stay away from these threads.
-
Nothing like a fresh batch of low wage workers to exploit with nickel and dime tourist $$$.
-
What is going on with the structure to the left off the 18th tee? It looks like something I could hit.
That is a statue called the God of Life:
(http://canadiangolfer.com/jefflancaster/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2012/04/varadero-18th-god-of-life.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AEBmHFEhQQ
-
"I know Lou Duran will be here shortly to protest any relations with the Castro regime. When he comes, I hope he'll answer how the embargo has done anything to improve the plight of the people of Cuba, now that it's had 50+ years to show results".
"You are right that the American embargo isn't the source of poverty in Cuba ... the local government there did a fine job of that without our help".
Glad you came around so quickly...
-
Harris Kupperman had a series of blog posts starting last December on the potential of investing in Cuba.
I'm not sure how prescient he realized this line would be:
" 'You need to see it now, so that you have perspective on it in a year or three when Americans can start investing there.' "
http://adventuresincapitalism.com/post/2013/12/31/Bienvenido-a-Cuba!.aspx
-
An interesting Lou, and I am sure accurate assessment of the circumstances and reasons why it has not been attractive or viable for other non-US enterprises related to golf have not taken hold or succeeded.
I can't imagine any real enterprise taking hold unless the current regime and Castro associates are thrown out, or are sent packing by whatever means.
But honestly Lou, the embargo and 50 years of our one dimensional approach has not gotten the bums thrown out. Isn't it time to change our unsuccessful approach, and see if a different approach won' t work?
You're right. All it did was turn Castro into an internationally castrated, powerless cartoon character, keep nukes out of the Western Hemisphere and help break the Soviet Union. Since when is US Foreign policy (remember that phrase? We used to have one...) supposed to serve the best interests of citizens of foreign countries? Silly me - until 2004, I always thought it was about the best interests of the US. How naive I must be...
"Internationally castrated"? Because the U.S. is the only country in the world that won't trade with him?
"Keep nukes out of the western hemisphere"? Risible. Yes, if the only nukes you count are the 1962 land-based ones. No one has tried to put land based nukes in Cuba since then, but it really isn't necessary when there are ICBM's, long range bombers, and submarine launched nuclear warheads, all of which, if they're not already here, could enter this hemisphere within minutes.
I can't figure how the U.S embargo of Cuba had anything to do with the collapse of the USSR. Please explain.
-
Golf in Cuba reminds me of a story Mr. von Hagge used to tell about his days with the Dick Wilson Company. In the late 50's Wilson was creating Villa Real in Cuba. von Hagge was working on the course as a project architect, and was in Havanna the night that the Castro rebels kidnapped Juan Fangio (famous Argentinian Formula 1 race car driver) from his hotel room. According to Mr. von Hagge, he was just down the hall at the Lincoln Hotel. von Hagge heard the commotion, but did not know what had happened until reading the news reports the next morning.
Cuba must have been a wild place in the late 50's under the Batista regime. I always pictured the scenes in the God Father 2 with Michael and Hyman Roth when von Hagge would tell that story.
-
This whole back channel process with the Pope playing a role puts me in mind of how JPII and that faction of the Vatican worked with Reagan and Lech Walesa in softening the communist regime and prep the way for a more free and democratic process in Poland.
It is odd how it works with our right wing Fox fueled factions. When our conservative leaders bring tea and cakes and offerings for arms for hostages, send ping pong teams and Kissenger in the night, and other back channel overtures to dictators and repressive regimes, it is brilliant diplomacy. But Obama is a traitor...
While the abuses of the Castro and communist party have been brutal on the people of Cuba, and we have maintained a half century and more feckless embargo with them, many more people are being slaughtered by US bought guns for Narco-terrorists and abused by a corrupt and brutal so-called democratically elected series of governments in Mexico, one more corrupt than the next, and the fall out of flight of Mexicans to illegally get to the US for low paying jobs, and Mexico as a haven for our companies to build environmental disaster factories to exploit them has been infinitely worse on the US economy than the gesture of one nation out of the world community of nations has chosen to maintain a gesture of embargo on the island of Cuba.
I worry that our first instincts are how can we make a buck on the changing winds that will inevitably come to Cuba, and not worry about the other sort of repressive and exploitative factions that will replace the communist one. There doesn't seem to be any tradition of freedom and the entire island of people have no heritage of democracy. The next few decades for Cuba need a hell of a lot more than a few golf fanatics dreaming of more coastal golf resorts. Hopefully, as the tides of change shake out, they will look towards better models of governance and freedom seen in peaceful countries like the Scandis or how places like Chile have evolved, than banana republics run by corporate $$$, exploitative labor practices, and tax havens for the global wealth 1% ers.
-
What is going on with the structure to the left off the 18th tee? It looks like something I could hit.
That is a statue called the God of Life:
(http://canadiangolfer.com/jefflancaster/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2012/04/varadero-18th-god-of-life.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AEBmHFEhQQ
Wow. I think it would be bad to hit the God of Life with your last tee shot ... it might really BE your last tee shot.
-
:)
I suppose you could ask for a mulligan.
Compared to, say, an old Greek god like Zeus, this one looks a little more forgiving.
(Strange that with such penal gods, the Greeks never really developed a top-flight touring pro. Just goes to show once again the advantages of a more strategic approach.)
-
Lou-
Thanks for your comments
In regards to my "world beater" comment: If you re-read my post you will notice that i don't say or even imply that American design teams and construction crews are the only way to get one of these "world beaters" built in Cuba. Although american design teams and construction crews aren't necessary to get one of these courses built, american tourism dollars and demand are. Although its been said that Cuba does trade/travel with some 191 other countries, its suffering a large economic loss without access to American tourism dollars. Just about every other island Caribbean tourist destination relies heavily on US tourism dollars, and i don't see how it would be any different in Cuba.
Andrew-
Thanks for posting those pictures. Im incredibly interested in this topic, so its greatly appreciated.
-
Tom Doak has a sense of humor. Who knew! Hanging around Urbina wasn't all bad after all. ;D
Jeff Blume- During the time you write about, compared to what it is today and relative to that part of the world then, Cuba was an imperfect paradise. People came from all over the world to start a new life. Many like my family succeeded. Today, in sharp contrast, the government, the perilous seas, and countries unreceptive to immigrants conspire to imprison whatever productive, hopeful segment of the population remains. Too bad the malcontents on this site and elsewhere can't take an extended trip, say for one year, to this socialist paradise. I'm sure that I would be joined by many others in contributing generously to a fund awarding matching stipends for a one-way ticket to those who yearn the equality of outcomes and "social justice". BTW, I really like your Grand Pines course at Bentwater. A great addition to TX golf.
RJ,
If you think so highly of the "Scandis" why not try living there? I get you don't like wealth, at least that of someone else. What altruistic motives and sources of capital do you recommend for rebuilding a society that has been destroyed probably to a level comparable to the turn of the 20th century? Would your labor friends want to lend money or invest their pension funds on rebuilding the island? I would suggest that Detroit might offer a better chance of returning your principle, not to say anything about making a profit.
The embargo today is largely symbolic. As David Schmidt noted, what's transpired is not unusual for this government and its foreign policy. Many of our enemies are having their way with us while our natural, long time allies are getting the shaft. Your comparison of prior U.S. attempts at forging positive relations with our adversaries fails in a very big way. Our leaders then did not have a worldview that we were the bad players, that our country needed to be brought down to size for its past sins. Being that they saw the U.S. as a force for good, they did not seek to improve the world by acting against the interests of the U.S. and its allies.
If one thing is clear, President Obama is a different leader. He has major problems with the U.S., how it was founded, and how it has evolved for more than 200 years. You appear to have similar views. Fox, tea and cakes. Go down to Cuba and see what you get. Confiscate and redistribute the wealth. It has been done often for hundreds, thousands of years. Me, I'll take my slight piece of cake that I bought through my own efforts, sip my tea, and rest somewhat comfortably in the knowledge that I can get a bigger piece if I want by exerting more effort, or run to the golf course for a quick nine if I prefer. Over a million Cubans are able to do that in the U.S. as imperfect as our country is. Maybe a hundred or so might be able to pull that off on the island today, most in government, and nearly all who fear deep inside that if they piss the wrong comandante off, the blood-splattered wall is not too far behind them.
Steve Wilson,
Be careful of being found guilty by association and ruining all the WVA hillbilly stereotypes! I often reflect on just how lucky I am to be here, what myriad of happenstances took place, and yes, what a strange trip it has been. Having grown up in two different cultures and systems as well as travelling widely has afforded me perspectives and insights that I would be loath to trade. There is a great sense of appreciation for what is possible here that perhaps may be absent had I been reared in a more normal, secure, "take it for granted" American setting. And knowing what might lie on the other side, maybe my fears can sometimes get the best of me.
As to fixing your '50s Chevy, you might wish to know that I have zero mechanical aptitude. However, I do have some organizational skills. Because I worked close to 40 hours per week during high school and more in the summers, I was able to save and buy a car. It was a '67 Chevelle SS which had been run hard by a previous owner and needed a valve job. I could barely turn a wrench, but I had a couple friends who were into muscle cars. We pulled the heads, had them milled, the valves ground, and put the engine back together with the only mishap being that I stepped on and turned over the full oil pan, getting it all over my buddy working under the car (at least he had no problem sliding out, but was he pissed!). My contribution was handing them the tools, some cleaning, and most importantly, buying the beer. The car ran good for a year or two until my mom took it out when hers was in the shop and blew the engine (I am sure she had it in second gear thinking it was in fourth). I sure wish I still had that car.
I have occasionally thought of what my life would be like had I remained in Cuba. I doubt that I would be serving my friend Dick Daley guarapo and churros off my street cart. Likely I would have gone to the hills like Fidel (you might be interested to learn that I attended Belen, his alma mater, for a year before he closed it down- strange bedfellows the Pope, the Jesuits, many who are radical socialists, and the church's accommodation of a political system so similar, yet so inimical), organized an escape, or more likely, languished in the dungeons of El Morro de la Habana, daydreaming of a prison life in Guantanamo. I can tell you one think, Cypress Point would never have popped into my mind!
-
Brad Klein's perspective:
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/dec/17/cubas-economic-rebirth-could-make-golf-reality/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2014/dec/17/cubas-economic-rebirth-could-make-golf-reality/)
-
K Rafkin,
Perhaps you are of the same mind as Brad Klein, a political science professor before a metamorphosis to golf architecture expert. I would enjoy his or your economic analysis supporting the thesis.
But let's assume that both of you are right and golf grows like gangbusters because Americans are so full of disposable income and want to spend it in the beautiful island. Why do you suppose the golf courses that would be built there would be so superior, "world beaters" as you called them, to those on the other Caribbean islands, Mexico, Central and South America, FL for that matter. Is the topography better? Soils to grow a higher quality, less grainy Bermuda?
This also assumes that property rights issues are resolved. What American company might be willing to be brought into an American court for building on my property without my consent? A lease from a highly volatile, lawless government sufficient guarantee to secure a loan? Even the Chinese flush with dollars might have second thoughts.
Then you have the thorny issue of supply and demand. Do you think that other countries will sit pat while the new entrant sucks away market share? Not many countries lacking a golf culture have been successful in creating much domestic demand. Good for golf consumers, but if I was doing the feasibility analysis or due diligence for the investors, competitive reaction is a dynamic that would require considerable discussion.
A more likely scenario is that the few courses that might be built would be done in conjunction with large hotels. Are they going to hire Doak or C & C? I don't see Trump bringing Hanse in. Why would the developers be breaking the mold? To lure a few hundred GCAers who might travel down there? Miami or Orlando with a better view might be the more likely model.
-
Lou, you have so many interesting and knowledgeable ideas and thoughts on these issues, but then you go and muck it up by using a very poor argumentative technique of putting words and ascribing values and philosophies to your debate opponent that are so over the top and assign the opposite view to the extreme (where the extreme is not proposed) that you just fail to allow the discussion to continue on a rational footing.
You are so afraid to near hysteria of any model of economic and political organization other than your view of unfettered free market and unbridled capitalism in a wall street sense, that any other form or model is 'socialism' or 'totalitarian communism'. As I mentioned (maybe in your haste to repurpose my views to fit your argument you missed it) but I never suggested any workers paradise or any such compliment to the repressive and failed regime in Cuba. When you mention things like telling or positing; why don't you have some of you labor pension funds go down there and do some development.... well how do you think several developments in the US have been capitalized by investment? Since this is golf architecture.... ever hear of Half Moon Bay? I think it was capitalized in large part by money from either the plumber and pipefitters or electrical union, out of NY if memory serves. There are resorts and other housing and retail developments capitalized by labor union pension investments around the country. But, your view of 'labor' is so negative, that you go off half cocked with such a proclamation of 'go have your labor buddies put up their pension money' (paraphrased)
The, when I express a model of how to organize a new governance and economic model into the vacuum that will surely be Cuba for an extended period of time, once the inevitable finally gets rolling, and I mention that I hope it isn't a exploitative and greedy model as we see in so many corporations lacking an ethical component, mostly the creed of too may greedy movers and shakers of wall street banker ilk, where the wealthy jiggle the laws, legislation, and accounting rules to get the huge piece of the profit, and the rest get the shaft; and I suggest other areas like the Scandies that seem to be a bit more ethical, more regulation and ownership components of the state (people) you suggest in the old trite right winger refrain, "why don't you go live there then, I'll help buy your ticket". Well, hell ya. But did you know you just can't pick up and go there, get citizenship and become part of that society quite so easy? See, places like Australia, Scandies, even Canada don't have the same easier to assimilate to their citizenship as this country afforded YOU! I'd have been gone two decades ago if I could have gotten relatively equal value for my dollars and assets and granted an easy enough path to their citizenship, if only for some of the healthcare benefits alone! But, oh yah, now I have our version of socialized medicine, Medicare. Thank goodness I lived long enough to get it. My costs are piling up these days, and with my contributions to "plus" plans and suh, and the copays I'm happy to pay, I have a chance with this damn socialized Medicare that it seems your camp wishes to destroy. Then it would come down to 'hurry up and die'.
By the way, I own a Norwegian Oil stock, pay the foreign tax, clip a decent dividend, and there is more than 50% ownership by the Norwegian State, and while their is an oil price down draft at the moment, I have been quite satisfied. And, by comparison, their executive compensation packages and all the ugly stuff that goes on within similar US Oil Company corporate governance and models is well compensated - but not so outrageous that it sucks one's breath away that such greed is possible or necessary. Japanese and many other corp exec comp models the same as you well know. Why not that sort of blended regulated capitalism for Cuba of the future? Is that a bridge too far for you to consider?
Lighten up man. We all know many others that came through as much hardship and hard work to get somewhere as you. Some of us or our families did. And yet we do not have your laissez faire and don't tax and tread on me, world view.... and we are all doing relatively fine. despite the intrusion of government and payment of taxes in our lives.
Rather than that laissez faire, dog eat dog, unregulated and unethical capitalism migrate into Cuba in the coming vacuum, where the 1% continue to have it all, and the people are still underpaid, exploited and squeezed out of governance by voting law schemes, maybe a little blended capitalism with greater regulation against exploitation of workers, accounting tax gimmicks that siphon the profits just to that 1% and some ethical progressive policies to allow the people to share in a growing economy, might serve better.
-
This seems is a fair assessment of President Obama's foreign policy, like it or not:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137516/martin-indyk-kenneth-lieberthal-and-michael-e-ohanlon/scoring-obamas-foreign-policy
Florida State University has been polling Cuban Americans since 1991, here's their latest:
— 68 percent of respondents favor restoring diplomatic relations with Cuba.
— Among younger respondents, 90 percent of respondents favor restoring diplomatic ties.
— When you include only registered voters, 51 percent of them support continuing the embargo.
— 69 percent of all respondents favor the lifting of travel restrictions impeding all Americans from traveling to Cuba.
— 53 percent of respondents said they would be likely to vote for a "candidate for political office who supported the re-establishment of diplomatic relations."
— A large majority — 71 percent — responded that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has not worked at all or has not worked very well.
-
David,
For a leader of a tiny, relatively unimportant country, Fidel has made a disproportional and long-lasting impact. He has stimulated the dreams of countless leftists in the U.S. and throughout the world. I suspect that the majority of the Congressional Black Caucus would much prefer his company than that of any Republican colleague and would welcome his leadership. Fidel has been flipping the U.S. the bird with impunity for five decades. Over that time, he has been a great source of psychic satisfaction to any number of malcontents. I have no doubt that President Obama will find much in common with Raul and at least in his private meetings with the substitute JV dictator, he will truly be the smartest man in the room.
Jim Kennedy,
I don't suppose you want to similarly post the numerous opinion polls showing the unpopularity of Obamacare. I guess it is okay to follow the public sentiment when it favors your POV. When it is not, well, Dr. Gruber has told us that Americans are mostly stupid and unable to understand complexity, so why would the good, smart people in the government class want to pay attention to them anyways? The dummies wouldn't know what's good for them, right? The search for cosmic justice continues; judge intentions, not actions, and certainly not results. Do I have it about right? And no, unlike John Kavanaugh and Tom Paul, I don't have the good excuse of indulging occasionally in heavy drinking late at night.
-
If you need some Obamacare polling to make you happy...
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/31/five-things-polling-tells-us-about-obamacare/
...although I don't see the point behind an exercise using false equivalencies. ??? A poll about Obamacare and a poll of Cuban American opinions about lessening tensions between the USA and Cuba have no bearing on each other.
-
Since this was side tracked it should be noted that nearly 80% of Americans enrolled in the Affordable Care Act love it and give it high marks.
On the foreign policy front...Killed ben Laden, ended or reduced our involvement in two wars, had a hand in overthrowing African dictators, one benefit of that is the return to high levels of oil production in Libya and a reduction in oil prices world wide, got CO2 concessions from the single largest producer of climate changing CO2's, has ISIS on the ropes, has isolated Russia and their horrible civil rights record and continues to turn up the screws on them, ended 50 years of ridiculous behavior toward Cuba removing once and for all this myth of "enemy" ( who will the Castro bros. use as a boogie man now?).
From what I have been told, the Swiss, the Dutch, and others have developed some very nice hotels and golf courses along the north coast of Cuba that serve a growing clientele.
-
From what I have been told, the Swiss, the Dutch, and others have developed some very nice hotels and golf courses along the north coast of Cuba that serve a growing clientele.
Not sure about the hotels, but from all reports there are currently only 27 holes of golf in Cuba...the 9-holer near Havana, and the Varadero course on the coast, which has been in play for something like 15 years.
-
From what I have been told, the Swiss, the Dutch, and others have developed some very nice hotels and golf courses along the north coast of Cuba that serve a growing clientele.
Not sure about the hotels, but from all reports there are currently only 27 holes of golf in Cuba...the 9-holer near Havana, and the Varadero course on the coast, which has been in play for something like 15 years.
As of 2012, there were plans-on-file for developing over a dozen new courses, most backed originally by Spanish and other European-based funding. Most of these projects had their planning inception nearer to 2008. Needless to say, all have been put on hold.
I've toured two of the sites closest to Havana and can tell you the land was nice, if not slightly-above average with some views, and the soils rather difficult. Neither would yield anything amazing. The country has much better venues for golf, however nearly all of them remain relatively remote and without anything close to the necessary infrastructure.
-
When I see Cuba on the map, I see a great piece of land the size of Florida, without 1,400 crap golf courses.
Cheers
-
No Dave, people like us. I reached Medicare so I have that version of health care. But my wife, who still has not reached that age, who has three university degrees, who
still works PT sub teaching in two different school districts, who has a gyno condition that has not manifested a problem since its diagnosis 40 years ago, could not get a straight up with no pre-existing condition, had to have a 5000 deduct, 20% copay, and substandard coverage of things now mandated by AHCA, and who had to pay a ridiculous amount for said substandard policy in the preAHCA era, who isn't poor, on welfare, and all the rest of the negative characteristics of these 8 million unworthy folk you say are beneficiaries of AHCA... that sort of person is among the takers in society getting some peace of mind from AHCA. And we are above the bar to receive any subsidy to reduce monthly premium. But now, there is no threat of recision, no cancelation, and mandated benefits for things that previously were excluded. Yet, we still have 2500 deduct, 20% copay, and I'll bet pay more out of pocket for premium and expenses than YOU DO! - FOR ONE PERSON. Even Cuba can do better than that!
But I am sure you are not any more piqued at carrying all these AHCA freeloaders on you tax burden than some of us <1%ers are upset that our taxes go towards propping up corporate subsidies in oil and other lobbied for special breaks for corps making record profits, and bailouts and all the rest. We don't have the corp accounting tricks, and it is our pension funds that are treasure troves for a variety of skimming that has taken place over decades. But, you are worried some folk who aren't sufficiently employed or high enough paid at min wage levels will get subsidies for their health ins premium? Really? GMAFB! ::)
-
Mike Nuzzo,
If I was going to develop a course in Cuba and thought that branding was not necessary, you and Don would be my picks to design and build. As Steve Lapper notes, the land is not exceptional and it would require great creativity and effort to get something really good out of it. I must confess that I have thought about it from time to time, but I won't live to see the day.
Jim,
Perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of your original post citing the FSU polling. Apparently it was not to reinforce Obama's foreign policy vis-à-vis Cuba. My bad. No "false equivalencies" there. ::)
Craig Sweet,
Thanks for the good laugh. I fully concur with your self-assessment.
Brad Tufts,
Shush! Let the fantasy continue.
David Schmidt,
Quit being such an a--h---! I've actually known several lefties who whine incessantly about the free stuff they get.
But since you bring up Christmas, my son is planning to tell his 2 year-old daughter that Santa doesn't exist (wants to be "truthful"). Should and how do I intervene. I am convinced that she'll be among the most enthusiastic members of the 80%.
Dick,
Man, I feel your pain. Having read your lengthy piece, twice, I think that maybe you're trying to tell me in 1k words that I am full of shit. You might have saved both of us some time, though quite a Rorschach. Reading it, I was reminded of the time when I heard Hank Haney tell one of his pupils with some frustration that the poor chap's swing was in so many planes he didn't know which one to look at. I guess that I should be impressed with all my debating ploys and the many fallacious arguments I made without a huge number of words (btw, thanks for not calling me a sophist this time). Have you heard of the term "projection"? Might be worth looking up.
Perhaps you misunderstood my comments about investing union pension money in Cuba. While I haven't personally worked with union pension funds in acquiring real estate, I am very aware that such investments are common (and BTW, I have played the original course at Half Moon Bay; liked it). One such investment right here in Dallas has been in the "limelight" for awhile.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-20/dallas-tower-dithers-as-glass-roasts-museum-masterpieces.html
Apparently, the police union in Dallas is no less the ruthless capitalist than the CEOs and the "1%" you seem to hate so much. It is so noble, highly principled, and civically-minded to be generous with other people's money. Apparently, not so much when it is your own.
Labor unions here and all over the world emphasize uniting, working together, being "in for the struggle". They may not sport the hammer and sickle logo on their shirts, but the rhetoric and tactics are more in line with the socialists than the capitalist enterprises they depend on for their livelihood.
In the normalization of Cuba and to help the good working people get on their feet, it would just seem to follow that our comparatively rich unions would want to help their needy comrades with some investment to build a more "balanced", socially conscious society. If fellow socialists don't want to lend a helping hand, how can you reasonably expect a filthy, unethical capitalist to do so? But I digress. Anybody suggesting putting money into Cuba while the communists have any power should change the title in his business card from Investments to Philanthropy.
I just have to laugh at your canned, repetitive rhetoric- "laissez faire, dog eat dog, unregulated and unethical capitalism". You sound just like the villain protagonist in "Atlas Shrugged". I was not aware that you were that old to remember the time before Woodrow Wilson. With government spending accounting for over 40% of GDP, it must be hard for you to keep a straight face and repeat such nonsense. In a country where a little girl has to get a permit from the government to sell lemonade on a corner in her neighborhood, whose dog is doing the eating?
Re: normalizing relations with Cuba and eventually ending the embargo, I am mostly indifferent. The Castros are very near their sunset- some believe that Fidel is already being preserved in formaldehyde- and I am not sure that their successors can sustain the extreme repression without a sugar daddy. Unfortunately, like parts of the old Soviet Union that we visited last year, the population has been reduced to supplicants for their livelihood, the change is like coming out into bright sunlight after being stuck in a dark dungeon for years. A large number won't be able to cope and will likely yearn the former tediousness of subsistence. It is extremely hard to watch the death of the human spirit. Had President Obama negotiated something positive in the interest of both countries and involved Congress, I would be much more encouraged. How, when, and what he got does not serve our interests.
Dick, those who are so preoccupied with the concentration of wealth, the unequal outcomes in even heavily regulated economies such as ours are always going to be looking for a different way. You can't change human nature so that those who produce will continue to work just as hard so that those who don't can receive a similar reward. Cuba has tried for over five decades to equate the work of doctors to those of street sweepers. Curiously, it exports doctors to other countries in return for hard currency paid directly to the government while the street sweepers stay home. I guess that even in a socialist utopia, all types of work are not equal after all.
I am sorry that a union cop doesn't earn what the CEO of a small company does. It is simply a function of the service or product each provides and the supply and demand for their respective skills. At least in this country, one has substantial control in determining the path of his life (I know we don't agree on this either). No one points a gun at a student and says "you're going to be a teacher". Who knows, when you came to the fork, had you taken a different path you might have become a CEO or, maybe worse, a hedge fund manager! I guess the grass is always greener on the other side of the pasture.
As a final note, the only thing that will turn things around in Cuba is entrepreneurship and the patriotism of the 1%s among the Cuban-American community. Unfortunately, many are like the Castros, close to their sunset, and their kids are pretty comfortable right here in the good old U.S.A. A likely scenario is that those with rights to significant holdings will press them aggressively and the whole thing turns into a real ugly Cuban cockfight. Mike Nuzzo probably shouldn't wait for my call. And in the word of a much more famous Duran, "no mas"!
-
Funny, but I pay a monthly premium for my insurance....the insurance I could not get before because of a pre existing condition...and I work and pay taxes....BUT I don't make as much money as that asshole Schmidt...I'm unlucky, uneducated, too stupid, and too lazy.
No, if I really wanted a real government hand out I'd become a corporation.
-
My wife and I were talking about Cuba last week ... there are regular flights to Havana from Nassau. [And Toronto.]
I know Lou Duran will be here shortly to protest any relations with the Castro regime. When he comes, I hope he'll answer how the embargo has done anything to improve the plight of the people of Cuba, now that it's had 50+ years to show results.
I’d like to call Tom out here for promoting a predictable debate. Not helpful.
My wife and I went to Cuba on Holiday in January 2013. I like to think we’re seriously good at holidays but, I know she’d agree, it was one of the best ever. I just hope the people of Cuba have a better future.
A little bit about my history. I started my life in Belfast and was 5 when my parents emigrated in 1963. So I have watched subsequent events with more than usual interest. I can say that with regard to Northern Irish politics it is not helpful to be reminded of previous wrongs everytime people meet to discuss the future. It’s a real problem that the past is everywhere and the levels of distrust on both sides are unbelievable – you have to know a few people to get them to speak openly and then you get torrents about “them” and how “they” cannot be trusted. It is painful but at the moment I am optimistic that for every ten slow steps forward, only nine are being made backwards.
It is clear that a change is going to come in Cuba and when it does it really won’t help to constantly recall how many tens of thousands were murdered or imprisoned by Batista/Castro (choose your villan) or what effect the US trade embargo has had. People in Cuba want to work and Golf can be part of the solution. If you want to help now, go there and spend some hard currency. Be a part of their future.
End of lecture.
A few tips.
Varadero is fun but it could be a Cuban theme park with its modern hotels.
Havana is not to be missed.
The island is larger and much more diverse than most imagine. I have only seen three bits but the great surprise was the town of Trinidad, it has whetted the appetite for more exploration.
The music is everywhere and as fantastic as the Buena Vista Social Club is, it has set the tone for what tourists expect. In Trinidad we saw a big band rehearsing, a Jazz band in a bar and best of all 3 guys with guitars in a front room with the windows open. That was our first afternoon.
If you enjoyed BVSC then try this, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introducing-Ruben-Gonzalez/dp/B000005J55 I prefer it.
Finally if you want to get a flavour of life there under Castro (I realise I am contradicting myself) then these books are most entertaining. A rogue cop who asks all the wrong questions in a repressive regime…how can it fail?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havana-Red-Mario-Conde-Mystery/dp/1904738095/ref=sr_1_sc_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1419010664&sr=1-2-spell&keywords=havaN+BLUE
-
Thanks Tony for one man's contemporary assessment and observations. I also enjoyed Anthony Boudain's travelogue last evening, which is a repeat airing.
How do we change perceptions and set new courses to guide the FUTURE policies if we rely on old bitter memories and people with open wounds so deep that it seems only endless revenge and ideologue agenda obscure ability to move forward? Old hatreds, religious inolerance, ideological recalcitrance and obstruction to progress, social and economics-polemics that exclude all other points of view are exactly why shit holes like the middle east are so messed up, along with several others where these same old failures of humanity continue to drive greed and power. We in the west, and our US policy can change with evolving conditions, as can Cuba's one way or the other. The first 50 years of one way was feckless. Why not try another?
-
Tony Muldoon,
Tom Doak is a bad man (I am kidding of course). A provocateur for sure!
It is relatively easy to be "objective" when one has not been even warmed by the fire. Let bygones be bygones is fine when we are talking about differences over characterizations in an authentication debate. I suppose that in the memory of the famous contemporary American urban philosopher Rodney King ("Can't we all get along?) we can dismiss Santayana's and Burke's similar admonitions against what you suggest (about forgetting the past and repeating its mistakes).
Oh Dick! I much prefer being slurred as a sophist than part of the Cuban-American Taliban. The search for the third way continues. How to grow the pie while ensuring all slices are about the same. Do you know Cervantes' El Quijote? I like Robert Goulet's version of the "Impossible Dream" best.
-
Lou,
Tony draws comparison to his family experience with The Troubles. I would guess his feet got far hotter than any of ours. I can't see that any of us moved out of the US because of animus with Cuba.
Anyway, I think Tim C and RJ have hit on the magic Trojan Horse for how to get a thread to 100+ pages discussing OT stuff without getting a double-tap from our Maximum Leader Kim-Jong Morrissett!
So...who wants to start a discussion on Golf and the Affordable Health Care Act? ;D
-
Mark, ;D
Lou, :-[
-
Oh great, golf and politics. Can we work in ratings and raters in some way and make this really a hoot? Why stop there? How about golf, politics, course ratings, college football, Tiger Woods (he looks sort of Cuban, right?), the Pope (that sandbagger), and religion. Kick out the jambs, boys, let’s rumble and have some fun.
-
Regardless of how one feels about Cuba, is the timing of the move a little strange? President Obama has been in office six years, has anything changed?
It seems a little tone deaf to reward a "rogue nation", Cuba, in the same week we are attempting to deal with another "rogue nation" in North Korea and finding we have few options.
I hope that is not too political as I would prefer to not have to argue with either RJ or Lou.:)
-
Corey
This notion that the U.S. just decided to "reward" Cuba at some sort of sacrifice to its own interests is certainly an interesting interpretation, to put it charitably. The previous policy against Cuba was designed during and for an era when the U.S. was engaged in a global Cold War and Cuba was an important client state of our enemy. That enemy has been extinct for decades. Cuba long ago lost its power to present a legitimate threat to the national security of the U.S.
The new policy carries risks but those are outweighed by the considerable potential political and economic benefits.
-
I suspect that the majority of the Congressional Black Caucus would much prefer his company than that of any Republican colleague and would welcome his leadership.
What a bunch of hot air probably taken straight from the geniuses at Fox & Friends last week. Maybe Obama just wants to strike up a relationship with a dictator for advice purposes? ::) If anyone has extremist views, it is you - veiled in the "Founding Fathers" argument. Just remember, they were slaveowners as they wrote the words "All men are created equal".
-
Mark
I am sorry to have used the word "reward" though surely you don't think both countries benefit equally? And who will reap the economic benefits on both sides?
It seems a little tone deaf to change a policy toward a "rogue nation", Cuba , in the same week we are attempting to deal with another "rogue nation" in North Korea and finding we have few options.
-
Corey
Yes, both sides should benefit. The beauty of free trade is it's not a zero sum game. Whether Cuba benefits more in percentage or even absolute terms doesn't matter. What matters is whether the U.S. sees a net marginal benefit over its prior policy. I think we will, you don't, we just have to agree to disagree and see how things play out.
The designation of Cuba as a rogue state is particular to the U.S. Fair enough, but by international norms Cuba fails to meet the criteria, thus the US has stood virtually alone in its embargo. Juxtaposing Cuba with the DPRK does a great job of illustrating why the latter meets the criteria and the former fails.
You appear to be making the argument the DPRK might take lessons from our change in policy wrt Cuba. I certainly hope so! For starters, stop threatening the world, sign the NNPT and join the global community.
-
Oh David....your panties are so twisted. Yeah, by all YOUR measurements you are so superior to me. But, I am not an asshole.
And thank you for offering to shut up.....finally!