Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Joe_Tucholski on December 17, 2014, 06:12:13 AM
-
The current Supt at Pasatiempo has a blog and a recent post shows some aerial photos contrasting before (Sept) and after the recent rain (Dec).
http://www.pasatiempomaintenance.blogspot.kr/2014/12/rain.html
Before saying you prefer the Sept photo please read about the problems with loss of turf. Anyone have actual recent experience?
Here are some shots of the progression:
http://www.pasatiempomaintenance.blogspot.kr/2014/09/the-drought-from-above.html
-
I'm certainly okay with a browning golf course, but you're right, this isn't healthy for the turf either and would certainly affect playing conditions. This is a prime example why the golf industry needs to take water conservation seriously and get creative with solutions. This will only become more commonplace going forward, and not just in California, but in most places around the country.
-
I was just there during the Dec 1-3 winter storm. No golf, no pix, just lunch, and some wandering around. Looked lush (from afar) to me, as did all of the courses along the Central Coast. They had probably had at least a couple of inches of rain in the proceeding days. Much greener than the mid November shot. Much more was on the way. That much rain does wonders to turf.
Every course I saw seemed to be having the opposite problem: how to get rid of it. At Pebble, for example, there was a major drain pipe (a big one, like 24") discharging drainage on the beach next to the pier at the Beach Club. It wouldn't have been a good idea to try and wade through it to reach the beach. Good chance you'd be washed out to sea.
-
I'm certainly okay with a browning golf course, but you're right, this isn't healthy for the turf either and would certainly affect playing conditions. This is a prime example why the golf industry needs to take water conservation seriously and get creative with solutions. This will only become more commonplace going forward, and not just in California, but in most places around the country.
I think we are getting much better. With technology it gives us a better ability to really understand where our moisture levels. Irrigation systems these days help out tremendously with the control that us Superintendents are given; they provide a much even application of water as well. We will continue to get better as well cause the environment is a valuable commodity to us so we understand the value in the conservation of water.
This year in Chicago we had one of our wettest summers on record. Annually we usually were in the 20-27 mil gallons of water used, this year we were at 10. What I found quite funny and very disturbing was on days that I'd drive to work at 5am and we'd either just had rain or it was raining, the amount of home and business irrigation systems running. Golf courses are an easy target for conservation of water cause the perception is that's all we do is water, water, and water. It's quite the opposite. Drier conditions suit us better on all types of fronts when it comes to managing the agronomy and health of the turf, obviously some water from time to time is needed.
We have 150 acres of land here at our course, probably 70-80 acres of that is irrigated. I'm willing to bet that if you add up all the irrigation systems in the town it would be well over what we irrigate and I'm sure 80% of those were watering when they didn't need to be. All irrigation systems should require a rain hold along with a calculated evapotranspiration rate to where they system would not turn on until a certain amount of rain left in the rain can or a deficit in the rain can.
Just my 2 cents.
-
I played Pasatiempo on Thanksgiving morning - a great experience and fabulous course but to be honest it was easily the worst conditions I've seen at a world-class course.
There were bare patches all over the fairways and in the rough. My guess is that it was at least a week since the fairways were cut for at least a week The greens were extremely soft but rolled ok. Areas off the fairways were covered in weeds.
Lest this sounds like someone setting impossible standards and whinging when they aren't met, I'm happy to post photos if you would like!
My lasting impression is of a club without pride - which I hope is an unfair one.
Pasatiempo is a sensational golf course, but at a rack rate of $260 (I paid $150 online) they need to do much much better. I'd like to play it again because the shots are so much fun, but unless I hear of drastic improvement I wouldn't on principle.
-
Drier conditions suit us better on all types of fronts when it comes to managing the agronomy and health of the turf, obviously some water from time to time is needed.
Plus, I think that the more facilities that allow their courses to play firmer and faster, that will only help sell their members / customers. For example, one Philadelphia-area course has made more of an effort not to overwater their course (as they used to), and the membership has apparently really enjoyed how much more fun it made the course.
-
I played Pasatiempo on Thanksgiving morning - a great experience and fabulous course but to be honest it was easily the worst conditions I've seen at a world-class course.
There were bare patches all over the fairways and in the rough. My guess is that it was at least a week since the fairways were cut for at least a week The greens were extremely soft but rolled ok. Areas off the fairways were covered in weeds.
Lest this sounds like someone setting impossible standards and whinging when they aren't met, I'm happy to post photos if you would like!
My lasting impression is of a club without pride - which I hope is an unfair one.
Pasatiempo is a sensational golf course, but at a rack rate of $260 (I paid $150 online) they need to do much much better. I'd like to play it again because the shots are so much fun, but unless I hear of drastic improvement I wouldn't on principle.
I'm pretty sure this wasn't by choice at all. They've had one of the worst droughts in history and there is no water available to water the course. I'm sure they are on water restrictions very tightly and the only surfaces permitted to receive water was the greens. When you don't have the ability to water areas such as the fairways and rough that turf will either die or shutdown "dormant" to protect itself which then gives weeds the ability to grow and out compete the turf. U can chalk that experience up to mother nature and not "impossible standards".
-
That is reassuring to hear Justin. I wish they'd told me - it would be nice to have known that at the time!
-
That is reassuring to hear Justin. I wish they'd told me - it would be nice to have known that at the time!
Although the course conditions were out of the courses control, I've been told on numerous accounts that the course did a bad job handling the situation. For the most part the course continued to charge a full or only slightly discounted rate while not revealing the course conditions to incoming guests. Charging full price is well within their rights so it doe dr bother me at all, but withholding important information about the course conditions is immoral and negligent. Pasatiempo is a gem and I'm glad it's getting healthier.
In other water conserving news (I can't remember where I read/head this so don't quote me on it) in 2009 pinehurst 2 used 55 mil gallons of water and post restoration 2014 used 15 mil gallons.
-
K Rafkin,
I agree - it would be appropriate to have a notice the first tee or attached to the scorecard which explains the situation. People would be understanding. I'm less bothered about a discounted rate...it was still worth every cent of $150 to experience those green complexes.
I'll confess that I did become very frustrated at the condition while I was playing it...had I known the reasons I'd have felt very differently at the time (coming from Australia I wasn't aware of the drought - and every other course I played in CA seemed to have no problem with water!).
-
Definitely prefer December photo, golf should be on green grass.
-
When I was there in July, the guy in the pro shop was telling each group about the course conditions and the drought. They were also offering some kind of voucher for future play in the event you were overly disappointed with the course conditions. Perhaps that message didn't reach each and every group.
Beyond hearing about it from the course directly, there was ample discussion about the course and drought on the board the last few months that could have helped set expectations:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58426.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58426.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59164.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59164.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59422.msg1398484.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59422.msg1398484.html)
-
In my 60 years of experience playing there, Pasatiempo has always played a bit green and soft. This was due to the generally moist environment there, from winter rains to summer fog. Only September and October are typically dry and sunny. Not having any rain at all would be really tough, but it would be fun to play if fast and firm to the point of edgy. Apparently the conditions went beyond edgy to poor.
-
Those digital images of the green slopes on the blog are amazing.
-
Those digital images of the green slopes on the blog are amazing.
Jason I saw those as well. I don't have the experience to know how useful they actually are or if it's just marketing. I do figure having detailed 3D imaging is useful as well as interesting.
It would be interesting to know exactly what the color gradients mean vs the slope. In the post the Supt says the green to yellow areas are pinnable. When I hear statements like that without qualifiers I question the validity of the statement and the rest of the information. I understand the blog is for a layman, but I'm a layman and want to know how they determine there are very few pinnable locations on a number of holes because it shows nearly all red (like #8).
http://www.pasatiempomaintenance.blogspot.kr/2014/08/digital-archive.html
http://www.pasatiempomaintenance.blogspot.kr/2014_09_01_archive.html
-
That is reassuring to hear Justin. I wish they'd told me - it would be nice to have known that at the time!
Although the course conditions were out of the courses control, I've been told on numerous accounts that the course did a bad job handling the situation.
Who told you that and exactly how did they do a bad job handling the situation.
For the most part the course continued to charge a full or only slightly discounted rate while not revealing the course conditions to incoming guests.
I don't believe that's accurate.
I was told about the conditions in advance and told of their coupon credit program for future play
Charging full price is well within their rights so it doe dr bother me at all, but withholding important information about the course conditions is immoral and negligent.
Who told you that they withheld important information about the course conditions ?
Pasatiempo is a gem and I'm glad it's getting healthier.
In other water conserving news (I can't remember where I read/head this so don't quote me on it) in 2009 pinehurst 2 used 55 mil gallons of water and post restoration 2014 used 15 mil gallons.
I wonder what the time frame/data compilation dates were.
Pasatiempo had no control of the situation.
They were regulated/restricted by the State of California.
As to using effluent or recycled water, never forget that the power to tax is the power to destroy.
-
Definitely prefer December photo, golf should be on green grass.
Yikes,
How did you get on this site ?
Has Ran ceased administering the "moron" test ?
Yellow/brown/green is the color of choice, not green.
-
When I was there in July, the guy in the pro shop was telling each group about the course conditions and the drought. They were also offering some kind of voucher for future play in the event you were overly disappointed with the course conditions. Perhaps that message didn't reach each and every group.
Howard,
Good post.
I had the same experience.
On several occassions, I made prior contact/arrangements and they disclosed everything and detailed the voucher program.
Beyond hearing about it from the course directly, there was ample discussion about the course and drought on the board the last few months that could have helped set expectations:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58426.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58426.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59164.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59164.0.html)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59422.msg1398484.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59422.msg1398484.html)
-
Those digital images of the green slopes on the blog are amazing.
Jason I saw those as well. I don't have the experience to know how useful they actually are or if it's just marketing. I do figure having detailed 3D imaging is useful as well as interesting.
It would be interesting to know exactly what the color gradients mean vs the slope. In the post the Supt says the green to yellow areas are pinnable. When I hear statements like that without qualifiers I question the validity of the statement and the rest of the information. I understand the blog is for a layman, but I'm a layman and want to know how they determine there are very few pinnable locations on a number of holes because it shows nearly all red (like #8).
http://www.pasatiempomaintenance.blogspot.kr/2014/08/digital-archive.html
http://www.pasatiempomaintenance.blogspot.kr/2014_09_01_archive.html
Joe - The charts show how colors correlate to slopes - look at the legend on the bottom. I think 3% is considered a normal maximum slope for a hole location (here is one reference http://www.aimpointgolf.com/Documents/TheFineLine.pdf ). All of the orange and red colored areas are above 3%. On the 8th green it does not appear there is any area in which one could place a hole on a slope of less than 3%.
On many other greens the areas are extremely limited.
-
Patrick, I played there three weeks ago. I can confirm that nothing was said either at the time of booking nor when I arrived. The first I heard about the problems the club is having was today when I read this thread.
People who know me will attest that I'm far from unreasonable with my expectations about course conditions, and the same would have applied at Pasatiempo - had they said something.
-
Patrick, I played there three weeks ago. I can confirm that nothing was said either at the time of booking nor when I arrived. The first I heard about the problems the club is having was today when I read this thread.
People who know me will attest that I'm far from unreasonable with my expectations about course conditions, and the same would have applied at Pasatiempo - had they said something.
Chris,
Did you book ONLINE, or did you call and speak to someone ?
-
I booked online. I don't see how this should make any difference though!
And they had plenty of opportunity when I arrived to explain the situation...I spoke to the pro shop staff for ten minutes about the courses I'd played during the previous week.
-
I booked online. I don't see how this should make any difference though!
Chris, come on man, you have to be kidding !
And they had plenty of opportunity when I arrived to explain the situation...
You were there, not much they could do.
Didn't they offer you a significant discount via voucher for your next round ?
They gave them to me and the fellows in my group.
I spoke to the pro shop staff for ten minutes about the courses I'd played during the previous week.
And no one mentioned the course conditions ? ? ?
No one apologized ? ? ?
No one explained why the situation was the way it was ? ? ?
Are you sure you weren't engaged in conversation with the half-way house girls ?
-
Chris, come on man, you have to be kidding !
No of course I'm not kidding. They could quite easily include a notice at the payment stage of the online booking webpage if they wanted to. Why are those booking by phone entitled to better treatment than those of us who aren't still living in the last century and book online? ;D
You were there, not much they could do.
Didn't they offer you a significant discount via voucher for your next round ?
They gave them to me and the fellows in my group.
No they didn't. There was no suggestion of any special situation when I checked in at the pro shop - which was a perfect opportunity to explain what was happening.
You clearly had a very different experience to me. To be honest I'm not too bothered about a voucher - I have no idea when I'd have a chance to use it - but it would have been nice to have known at the time why the conditions were so poor. I still love the course though.
And no one mentioned the course conditions ? ? ?
No one apologized ? ? ?
No one explained why the situation was the way it was ? ? ?
Have you bothered to read my previous posts? No, no and no!
Are you sure you weren't engaged in conversation with the half-way house girls ?
Yes!
-
I played Nov. 20 in light rain. The new grasses were getting established.
The head pro was very open about the compromised playing conditions in all my contacts with him prior to my visit.
Pasa is a true masterpiece. The green complexes and bunkering are among the best anywhere. True art in the ground.
Looking forward to getting back to absorb more.
-
Joe - The charts show how colors correlate to slopes - look at the legend on the bottom. I think 3% is considered a normal maximum slope for a hole location (here is one reference http://www.aimpointgolf.com/Documents/TheFineLine.pdf ). All of the orange and red colored areas are above 3%. On the 8th green it does not appear there is any area in which one could place a hole on a slope of less than 3%.
On many other greens the areas are extremely limited.
Yeah I did infer the colors somehow relate to a slope, what I was saying is without a scale I didn't see a whole lot of value. Basically I was saying I wanted to know the scale. Looking closer it appears there is some sort of scale at the bottom with more useful info that I can't really read. It looks like the darkest red is 6 degrees which would be 10.5ish% slope!!! The yellow looks like it's 2.5 degrees or 4ish% slope!!! With those numbers I'm wondering if I'm reading or calculating something wrong.
-
t looks like the darkest red is 6 degrees which would be 10.5ish% slope!!! The yellow looks like it's 2.5 degrees or 4ish% slope!!! With those numbers I'm wondering if I'm reading or calculating something wrong.
Probably not!
-
This is a prime example why the golf industry needs to take water conservation seriously and get creative with solutions. This will only become more commonplace going forward, and not just in California, but in most places around the country.
Mr. Doak may eventually chime in on this, but I recall Tom saying that part of the problem that Pasatiempo is/was having is that they WERE serious about water conservation, and that prior to this massive drought, they had reduced their water usage fairly dramatically (like 50% or sometihng). But when the drought hit, essentially their allotment reduced by 50% from that new baseline. So they were basically limited to 25% of the amount of water they had been using not too long ago. If that's the case, then that seems like a major DISINCENTIVE to get creative and manage water use wisely, aside from the pure cost savings of doing so.
-
This is a prime example why the golf industry needs to take water conservation seriously and get creative with solutions. This will only become more commonplace going forward, and not just in California, but in most places around the country.
Mr. Doak may eventually chime in on this, but I recall Tom saying that part of the problem that Pasatiempo is/was having is that they WERE serious about water conservation, and that prior to this massive drought, they had reduced their water usage fairly dramatically (like 50% or sometihng). But when the drought hit, essentially their allotment reduced by 50% from that new baseline. So they were basically limited to 25% of the amount of water they had been using not too long ago. If that's the case, then that seems like a major DISINCENTIVE to get creative and manage water use wisely, aside from the pure cost savings of doing so.
I'm glad they decided to drill a well instead of wasting water.
-
I played Pasatiempo on Thanksgiving morning - a great experience and fabulous course but to be honest it was easily the worst conditions I've seen at a world-class course.
There were bare patches all over the fairways and in the rough. My guess is that it was at least a week since the fairways were cut for at least a week The greens were extremely soft but rolled ok. Areas off the fairways were covered in weeds.
Lest this sounds like someone setting impossible standards and whinging when they aren't met, I'm happy to post photos if you would like!
My lasting impression is of a club without pride - which I hope is an unfair one.
Pasatiempo is a sensational golf course, but at a rack rate of $260 (I paid $150 online) they need to do much much better. I'd like to play it again because the shots are so much fun, but unless I hear of drastic improvement I wouldn't on principle.
Chris-I know a lot of members at Pasatiempo, they really do care. The members see themselves as very progressive in their stance on water and "brown being the new green". Cliff notes version is that Scotts Valley, the village east of the club, will not sell their run off water to the club and it runs directly by the golf course and is dumped into the Pacific. Scotts Valley is currently negotiating to sell the water to Pasatiempo, but needs a clause so that if they need this water in the future they can get out of the contract to sell.
-
I believe that Pasatiempo has ameliorated the water issue by contracting to purchase effluent water in the near future