Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: BHoover on December 15, 2014, 09:32:23 PM
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Looks like yet another course will be closing. I just heard that Piqua CC in Ohio, which describes itself as a Ross dating back to 1896, will be closing at the end of the year. I don't know much about the course, nor can I speak to the architecture or the extent of the work that Ross did. It's a shame, however, that yet another golden age course is going by the wayside. Probably not surprising as this is a course located in a small town that once was a manufacturing center but now has an aging population that can no longer support a private club.
Some quick research suggests that Ross did 9 holes. Not sure about the rest.
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Great post. I don't think it has any competition. Some CC's would rather close than adjust to a Golf club and lower services levels. Truly sad, was planning on playing the course in 15'.
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Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.
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From a Dayton sports history website (www.daytonareasportshistory.com):
"It was in 1896 that a group of Piqua sportsmen put in a few golf holes at a picnic ground east of town known as Kelley's Grove. One of the men was Stanhope Boal, whose family operated the Favorite Stove & Range Company. Legend has it that Boal, who had never played golf, knocked the ball into the hole with his first swing and proclaimed, "This game is too easy." In 1920, the organization became known as Piqua Country Club. Additional land was purchased and the renowned golf architect, Donald Ross, was hired to design a nine-hole course. A new clubhouse opened in the summer of 1921, but a week later it was destroyed by fire. Undaunted, the Piqua group rebuilt the clubhouse and hired its first golf pro."
I believe Jack Kidwell was also involved in a renovation at some point. He may have even been the one to design the second 9 holes. Looking to confirm that.
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Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.
Battle Creek, MI has 52,000 people and avg family income of $43,000. They picked up 60 new members in the last year. Making tough decisions usually is hard.
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Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.
Battle Creek, MI has 52,000 people and avg family income of $43,000. They picked up 60 new members in the last year. Making tough decisions usually is hard.
All this is mere speculation at this point. For all I know, someone coukd have offered the members money to purchsse the land. I don't know the reason.
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Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.
Battle Creek, MI has 52,000 people and avg family income of $43,000. They picked up 60 new members in the last year. Making tough decisions usually is hard.
All this is mere speculation at this point. For all I know, someone coukd have offered the members money to purchsse the land. I don't know the reason.
lets hope, these are the courses that i hope stay afloat.
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It's not just Ohio, but many of the country clubs and golf clubs in towns that at one time could support clubs will not survive. It's not ideal, but it's reality.
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I saw this article a few days ago too--unfortunate, but agree that Piqua isn't exactly a bustling place and not exactly near anything. Battle Creek at least has the benefit of a large corporation.
Any idea what the plans for the land are?
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I saw this article a few days ago too--unfortunate, but agree that Piqua isn't exactly a bustling place and not exactly near anything. Battle Creek at least has the benefit of a large corporation.
Any idea what the plans for the land are?
Piqua is 25-30 mins north of the Dayton Loop and it is right off of i-75. Many CC's don't want to adjust or know how to scale back to a golf club. low key private golf can do well in a small town. I can tell you countless stories of very great courses in decent-good markets struggling do to idiocy of the blinders.
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Found this: http://www.otgt.org/Home-MVGolf/MVGA/Events/Past-Events/Piqua-Country-Club-Closing-2602C4316.html?LayoutID=#.VJBM0WTF9y4
A shame. I had Piqua on my radar for a 2015 round.
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Ben, what insight can you give us to the decisions that the members of Piqua Country Club faced that led to them choosing to close their club? How do the choices that they made compare with the ones made by the members of Battle Creek Country Club? What would you have advised them to do instead? Please share your expertise. Does anyone know if Piqua allowed push carts?
I actually heard some really nice things about Piqua CC. Pete Balzer recommended I see it on one of my trips north. I used to work with a few clients in the Troy/Piqua area and also in Lima and Toledo, and I meant to stop in on one of those trips but never had time to do so.
The club's location is obviously a difficult one. It's much too far north to ever draw significant membership from Dayton, and Piqua itself is tiny town with very little industry. With the proximity to the interstate, small local population, and smaller local affluent population, it's practically a guarantee that the property would be worth more as anything other than a private golf course. The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Basic)" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle. This smells like a prime opportunity for retail space development or residential development to me.
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The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Basic)" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle.
Might I recommend the Shell station/Subway in Botkins? Last time I passed there it featured the largest Shell billboard I've ever seen.
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My wife is from nearby Lima, once a city with a population exceeding 50k, now under 39k. I suspect that the leaders of the Piqua CC understand all the options and are making the proper decisions under the circumstances. Rather than speculating on everything that they might be doing wrong, we may wish to consider that perhaps golf as we know it is just toast in many areas.
Looking at our society and the many demands liberal democracies in general place on the collective, I doubt that golf can thrive as a popular sport. In Texas, where the economy is doing well (though dark clouds are sprouting in the horizon), my former club is on the short list to NLE. Management has been unable to grow the membership which is below 60% of its high point, and apparently there is a developer who sees a higher use for the site at a price the owners are considering. It is a very good course in an excellent location in terms of access and demographics, with low infrastructure costs (i.e. small clubhouse, no other amenities than golf).
It is somewhat ironic that the nearby city of Arlington is spending $15 Million on the redo of a municipal course that is not a shadow of my old club and only three miles away. A new clubhouse, meeting and outings space, all the amenities of a nice CCFAD. I don't know if the city's "investment" in its public facility is impacting the decision of the private club's owners, but it does raise the question in my mind that Arlington could easily buy my old club, make reasonable modifications and renovations to both, and probably save the taxpayers $5 Million+. While the two events could be independent, I can't help but to think how the closing of the private club reduces supply to one segment and transfers some of whatever waning demand there is to the other. Interesting times we live in.
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My wife is from nearby Lima, once a city with a population exceeding 50k, now under 39k. I suspect that the leaders of the Piqua CC understand all the options and are making the proper decisions under the circumstances. Rather than speculating on everything that they might be doing wrong, we may wish to consider that perhaps golf as we know it is just toast in many areas.
Unfortunately I think you are right about golf as we know it being done in many areas. Despite the occasional exception, no amount of cost cutting or reduction in services, or the addition of large clubhouses or a significant restoration or renovation, will save clubs in shrinking towns that don't have the population with disposable income to support golf. It's just that simple in my humble opinion.
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Ben, what insight can you give us to the decisions that the members of Piqua Country Club faced that led to them choosing to close their club? How do the choices that they made compare with the ones made by the members of Battle Creek Country Club? What would you have advised them to do instead? Please share your expertise. Does anyone know if Piqua allowed push carts?
I actually heard some really nice things about Piqua CC. Pete Balzer recommended I see it on one of my trips north. I used to work with a few clients in the Troy/Piqua area and also in Lima and Toledo, and I meant to stop in on one of those trips but never had time to do so.
The club's location is obviously a difficult one. It's much too far north to ever draw significant membership from Dayton, and Piqua itself is tiny town with very little industry. With the proximity to the interstate, small local population, and smaller local affluent population, it's practically a guarantee that the property would be worth more as anything other than a private golf course. The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Basic)" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle. This smells like a prime opportunity for retail space development or residential development to me.
Piqua population
2000 20,738 0.6%
2010 20,522 −1.0%
Funny you ask Jason, i called Piqua and talked to the GM today. Learned quite a bit and I pretty much got the answer i thought. The reason i brought up Battle Creek, is do to I'm tired of hearing small towns can't have a full golf club. Battle Creek was pro active in getting members. Both BC and Piqua are located off major E-ways. Back in 99' the club took out a $2 million dollar loan and they had 400 members (that was progress in their minds) Loose credit, pay later it is the Greenspan way! They slowly lost members and didn't bring in new blood. CC in a small town is tough. Their clubhouse is open 11 months a year, many top clubs i know close there clubhouses down for 5 or 6 months to stop bleeding RED. So now they owe $1.6 million to a Bank, and the club closes its doors at the end of the month. Hopefully a few members who are trying to buy it from the bank, get that opportunity. People forgot why people join clubs, for the GOLF COURSE.
The funny thing Jason is people our age travel far lengths to play low key private or affordable private golf. Brian travels an hour to play his club, or he at least used to. I have a friend who did the same to play my home course. a 30 min drive up the e-way is nothing for your middle class golfer, wealthy people don't drive that far.
How this relates to me is the club I was raised at is a GOLF CLUB. In the late 99's a few guys wanted to build a $6 million dollar clubhouse to attract new members. Luckily it didn't pass and those guys went to the big I to rack up debt and assessments there! It is spending issues that cause revenue issues, which then get blamed on the economy. The GM also said 08 was if little impact on them. Moraine and NCR aren't their competition. for the record they allow trolleys.
So building housing in Piqua sounds like a good idea to you? that makes no sense. Please explain 400 member in 99' with basically the same population...
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I think at this point the best thing for us to do is go play Piqua, possibly for the last time. I have never played there or heard about it until now. Guessing if the are planning on closing they will allow outside play. Any day the weather supposed to be above 45?
Any one interested?
chris
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8) Sad to hear, i played it last in 91 as part of a Golf Ohio tour... almost every one of Ohio's 88 counties have a hidden gem course, like it..
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/piquacc_zps30b97d19.jpg)
I think Piqua was more known for Winan's Carriage House.. great chocolate treats.. and perhaps for the old nuke power plant that one could see from I-75...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Aboveground_Portion_of_the_Piqua_Decommissioned_Reactor_Complex_and_Auxiliary_Building.jpg/220px-Aboveground_Portion_of_the_Piqua_Decommissioned_Reactor_Complex_and_Auxiliary_Building.jpg)
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A couple years ago, Bill McKinley and Joe Leenheer did a photo tour of a final round at Acacia CC before it closed for good. I hope there is something similar here.
Acacia, incidentally, was purchased by a conservation group and turned into a permanent green space and natural area, much to the chagrin of tge mayor of Beachwood, Ohio, who was all ready to spend the tax revenue from commercial development of the property. Hopefully something similar happens here. If it can't stay a golf course, better to be preserved as green space.
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Having lived near this club for many years, it was easy to see the issues. As mentioned above the club over spent in refurbishing of the club house but did very little in promoting golf and the heritage of a Donald Ross golf course.
The argument has been made that the demise occurred because Piqua is a "small town", however 15 miles to the north Troy CC prospers with a golf course that is mediocre at best. Fifty miles north of Piqua, Shawnee CC in Lima (a town of 60,000) has a waiting list. Why? Much more effective management and a good run of progressive, friendly golf professionals.
Having been in the business 32 years, I can safely say the golf drives the bus at any club. The general idea is that if golf can generate enough revenue to cover what the F&B and pool/tennis lose it will be a successful year.
Debt is also a HUGE issue at any club, as it is in our society. Clubs borrow for the most ridiculous reasons (rarely associated with golf) with no real debt retirement plans, then when a slow down occurs they can't pay the debt back.
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My outlook isn't as bleak as Brian's or Lou's. I don't believe that golf in small towns is doomed. At the same time, though, it's silly to pretend location didn't play any factor in Piqua CC's struggles. Troy is actually 10 miles SOUTH of Piqua, and Troy CC is 10 minutes closer to Dayton than Piqua CC is. Any club in a town of 20,000 with a lack of industry needs to be able to draw members from surrounding towns, and that job is exponentially easier for a club located within 20 miles of a city of over 100,000 residents than it is for a club over 30 miles from such a city. That difference may seem small, but an extra 10 miles of driving plays a big factor in whether someone will join a local club or not.
These comparisons between Piqua/Battle Creek or Piqua/Lima are ridiculous. Piqua is a town of 20,000 whose largest employer is literally the local Wal-Mart. Lima proper is only double the size of Piqua, but it's the seat of a 100,000 person MSA with a health system that supports a few hundred physicians, among other large employers. Battle Creek is the hub of a 140,000 person MSA, making it almost 7 times the size of Piqua. It's the home of several multinational companies, and is closer to Kalamazoo (pop. 75,000, MSA pop. 330,000) than Piqua is to Dayton.
When a club that has existed for 118 years goes bankrupt, you can bet that there are numerous issues at play. Piqua CC no doubt accumulated too much debt. They also likely overspent in other areas, charged dues too high for the local economy to support, and faced an uphill battle due to a location that didn't offer a significant enough local population to pull members from. They may have also had marketing shortcomings and faced competition from nearby clubs, such as Troy CC. Businesses generally fail for systematic reasons. Regardless, it's unfortunate to see 9 more Ross holes and a 118 year old club disappearing. All I can really do is wish the best for the members and especially the staff, who are out a job at the peak of the holiday season.
Troy CC's own website discusses how they hit rock bottom just three or four years ago at around 150 members before rebounding to 300 today. I'd be curious to know how they grew so rapidly. As for what happens next with Piqua's property, I offered a guess that it will be purchased for retail or real estate. I have no opinion on whether either of those is a GOOD idea, but that's my guess at what happens.
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Having lived near this club for many years, it was easy to see the issues. As mentioned above the club over spent in refurbishing of the club house but did very little in promoting golf and the heritage of a Donald Ross golf course.
The argument has been made that the demise occurred because Piqua is a "small town", however 15 miles to the north Troy CC prospers with a golf course that is mediocre at best. Fifty miles north of Piqua, Shawnee CC in Lima (a town of 60,000) has a waiting list. Why? Much more effective management and a good run of progressive, friendly golf professionals.
Having been in the business 32 years, I can safely say the golf drives the bus at any club. The general idea is that if golf can generate enough revenue to cover what the F&B and pool/tennis lose it will be a successful year.
Debt is also a HUGE issue at any club, as it is in our society. Clubs borrow for the most ridiculous reasons (rarely associated with golf) with no real debt retirement plans, then when a slow down occurs they can't pay the debt back.
+1, very well said. Your last paragraph is spot on. Also Lima Shawnee isn't any good imo.
Jason,
Kalamazoo is 30 minutes from Battle Creek. So your example of 10 miles (Troy is 10 miles closer) is a big deal doesn't hold water. the 140,000 metro Battle creek has to include Kalamazoo. Battle Creek picked up many members from outside Battle Creek, again proves that ten miles doesn't matter when you are talking quality. Battle Creek also has competition with other area courses. We can leave Battle Creek out. Mr Farron made a great point with Troy CC.
''you can bet that there are numerous issues at play'' $2 Million dollars is serious mistake, especially for a club that isn't in a large metro area, which wasn't even used on the Golf course, even another huge mistake. Explain the 400 members in 1999 with 20,000 people? Business fail when they go in debt, especially for a Clubhouse that doesn't bring in new members. The lesson here is don't go in to debt, especially for a Clubhouse! This is horrible and hopefully certain members can purchase the course at auction. Hearts go out to the staff, very bad news.
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''you can bet that there are numerous issues at play'' $2 Million dollars is serious mistake, especially for a club that isn't in a large metro area, which wasn't even used on the Golf course, even another huge mistake.
I'm glad we agree.
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Ben, what insight can you give us to the decisions that the members of Piqua Country Club faced that led to them choosing to close their club? How do the choices that they made compare with the ones made by the members of Battle Creek Country Club? What would you have advised them to do instead? Please share your expertise. Does anyone know if Piqua allowed push carts?
I actually heard some really nice things about Piqua CC. Pete Balzer recommended I see it on one of my trips north. I used to work with a few clients in the Troy/Piqua area and also in Lima and Toledo, and I meant to stop in on one of those trips but never had time to do so.
The club's location is obviously a difficult one. It's much too far north to ever draw significant membership from Dayton, and Piqua itself is tiny town with very little industry. With the proximity to the interstate, small local population, and smaller local affluent population, it's practically a guarantee that the property would be worth more as anything other than a private golf course. The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Basic)" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle. This smells like a prime opportunity for retail space development or residential development to me.
Piqua population
2000 20,738 0.6%
2010 20,522 −1.0%
Funny you ask Jason, i called Piqua and talked to the GM today. Learned quite a bit and I pretty much got the answer i thought. The reason i brought up Battle Creek, is do to I'm tired of hearing small towns can't have a full golf club. Battle Creek was pro active in getting members. Both BC and Piqua are located off major E-ways. Back in 99' the club took out a $2 million dollar loan and they had 400 members (that was progress in their minds) Loose credit, pay later it is the Greenspan way! They slowly lost members and didn't bring in new blood. CC in a small town is tough. Their clubhouse is open 11 months a year, many top clubs i know close there clubhouses down for 5 or 6 months to stop bleeding RED. So now they owe $1.6 million to a Bank, and the club closes its doors at the end of the month. Hopefully a few members who are trying to buy it from the bank, get that opportunity. People forgot why people join clubs, for the GOLF COURSE.
The funny thing Jason is people our age travel far lengths to play low key private or affordable private golf. Brian travels an hour to play his club, or he at least used to. I have a friend who did the same to play my home course. a 30 min drive up the e-way is nothing for your middle class golfer, wealthy people don't drive that far.
How this relates to me is the club I was raised at is a GOLF CLUB. In the late 99's a few guys wanted to build a $6 million dollar clubhouse to attract new members. Luckily it didn't pass and those guys went to the big I to rack up debt and assessments there! It is spending issues that cause revenue issues, which then get blamed on the economy. The GM also said 08 was if little impact on them. Moraine and NCR aren't their competition. for the record they allow trolleys.
So building housing in Piqua sounds like a good idea to you? that makes no sense. Please explain 400 member in 99' with basically the same population...
The John Mellencamp of American Golf has spoken again! How did we understand anything before the Small Town Golf Yoda came our way? I shudder to think.
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Thanks, coming from a guy who is ''Often wrong, but never in doubt''. I'll take that as a compliment.
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Any club in a town of 20,000 with a lack of industry needs to be able to draw members from surrounding towns, and that job is exponentially easier for a club located within 20 miles of a city of over 100,000 residents than it is for a club over 30 miles from such a city.
Not a reliable mathematical statement. Maybe with a base marginally greater than one. More likely linear until the mileage becomes a bit larger. The entire function would likely be piecewise.
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Any club in a town of 20,000 with a lack of industry needs to be able to draw members from surrounding towns, and that job is exponentially easier for a club located within 20 miles of a city of over 100,000 residents than it is for a club over 30 miles from such a city.
Not a reliable mathematical statement. Maybe with a base marginally greater than one. More likely linear until the mileage becomes a bit larger. The entire function would likely be piecewise.
Doubt it. I would hypothesize that with most local private clubs, plotting the number of members living at any X distance from the club along any given axis will generally follow a normal distribution, except where special causes (such as a large population center like the city of Dayton) exist in close enough proximity to the club to throw off that distribution.
Let's choose a simple North-South axis. I suspect that Piqua CC's membership generally reflected a normal distribution, as follows (simplified for brevity):
Living >20 miles south of the club: 5% of members
Living 10-20 miles south of the club: 15% of members
Living 0-10 miles south of the club: 35% of members
Living 0-10 miles north of the club: 30% of members
Living 10-20 miles north of the club: 12% of members
Living >20 miles north of the club: 3% of members
On that same North-South axis, I suspect that Troy CC's membership shows a more pronounced skewing to the south, as its closer proximity to the city of Dayton gives it a greater number of members from that city and region relative to Piqua
Living >20 miles south of the club: 5% of members
Living 10-20 miles south of the club: 25% of members
Living 0-10 miles south of the club: 40% of members
Living 0-10 miles north of the club: 20% of members
Living 10-20 miles north of the club: 7% of members
Living >20 miles north of the club: 3% of members
Of course, neither of us have any real data, so we're all full of horsepiss. But customer distribution within any given brick-and-mortar business tends to follow a normal distribution prone to being skewed by inconsistencies in general population distribution, and I see no reason why country clubs would be any different.
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I have played Piqua about 15 times. The front compromises the original 9 holes for the most part. The green complexes are superb. The new holes that are mixed in are flat and have less character than the others.
All the wealthy people live in Tipp City which is 5 miles from Troy CC. Piqua did remodel it's club house but it is a hike from Tipp and the other people in Miami County.
Another Dayton CC on hard times:
http://www.whio.com/news/news/country-club-could-be-donated-to-city/njTNY/
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Also the former Assistant Pro at Piqua is now the GM at Troy CC
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Any club in a town of 20,000 with a lack of industry needs to be able to draw members from surrounding towns, and that job is exponentially easier for a club located within 20 miles of a city of over 100,000 residents than it is for a club over 30 miles from such a city.
Not a reliable mathematical statement. Maybe with a base marginally greater than one. More likely linear until the mileage becomes a bit larger. The entire function would likely be piecewise.
Doubt it. I would hypothesize that with most local private clubs, plotting the number of members living at any X distance from the club along any given axis will generally follow a normal distribution, except where special causes (such as a large population center like the city of Dayton) exist in close enough proximity to the club to throw off that distribution.
Let's choose a simple North-South axis. I suspect that Piqua CC's membership generally reflected a normal distribution, as follows (simplified for brevity):
Living >20 miles south of the club: 5% of members
Living 10-20 miles south of the club: 15% of members
Living 0-10 miles south of the club: 35% of members
Living 0-10 miles north of the club: 30% of members
Living 10-20 miles north of the club: 12% of members
Living >20 miles north of the club: 3% of members
On that same North-South axis, I suspect that Troy CC's membership shows a more pronounced skewing to the south, as its closer proximity to the city of Dayton gives it a greater number of members from that city and region relative to Piqua
Living >20 miles south of the club: 5% of members
Living 10-20 miles south of the club: 25% of members
Living 0-10 miles south of the club: 40% of members
Living 0-10 miles north of the club: 20% of members
Living 10-20 miles north of the club: 7% of members
Living >20 miles north of the club: 3% of members
Of course, neither of us have any real data, so we're all full of horsepiss. But customer distribution within any given brick-and-mortar business tends to follow a normal distribution prone to being skewed by inconsistencies in general population distribution, and I see no reason why country clubs would be any different.
I just want to say this is the most hilarious post I've seen on this website. You really just took the time to create two fake distribution breakdowns - complete with totally fabricated numbers - to support your suspicion. All I can reply is...speak for yourself Mr. ::)
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Not to support. Just to outline. They say that those who can't do, teach, so I figured you might need the concept of a "normal distribution" spelled out a bit.
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I just wanted to add that I played it a few years ago and thought it was nice course, and a blast. Great green complexes, and some pretty severe greens on the front. I had a fun time, and will be sad to see it closing. In fact, I shot the best round of my life there (that's not saying much, though) so it will always be a place I remember.
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I attended a wedding there a few years back, but was only able to peek at the course. That next summer I called and asked if I could come up and play a round and they allowed me to. 80 miles up, 80 miles back to Cincinnati. I am glad that I played it, it was a fun walk. 9 holes Ross, 9 holes Kidwell.
Anyone want me to post the photos?
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Wow, we can now come to gca.com and learn about statistics. Normal distributions? I must have missed the lecture in Sociology that went into how housing patterns and demographics can be understood in this way. Probably did my studying that day on the Scarlet course. It did happen more than a few times, but I am making up for it now by sitting in this free online university frequently.
Perhaps Chase can foreclose on PCC and donate it to the town (similar to the other club near Dayton whose owners want to sign over the deed). And maybe BCowan can be enticed to move south and show us and the industry how it is done. Don't remember ever noticing the club on a number of drives down I-75, and I don't recall ever hearing anything about it, but if Steve Lang suggests it is a gem, here's hoping that it doesn't get plowed up.
P.S.- glad to see that Lima is now up to 60k inhabitants (I wonder what changed since the last census) and that Shawnee CC has a waiting list. Last time I visited Lima, some 10 years ago, the city and the surrounding areas were losing businesses, people, and the CC was extremely welcoming of visitors and potential new members.
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Guys, I'm taking an introduction to R class, this is a perfect opportunity for me to apply what I'm learning...
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn209/joellahrman/Olympic_zps78e35158.png) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/joellahrman/media/Olympic_zps78e35158.png.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn209/joellahrman/Piqua_zps3e523bb1.png) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/joellahrman/media/Piqua_zps3e523bb1.png.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn209/joellahrman/Ballyneal_zps7f171c8a.png) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/joellahrman/media/Ballyneal_zps7f171c8a.png.html)
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Rotating the graphs to the right, Dolly Parton, John Kavanaugh, Anthony Grey. Did I learn good Professor?
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That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).
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P.S.- glad to see that Lima is now up to 60k inhabitants (I wonder what changed since the last census) and that Shawnee CC has a waiting list. Last time I visited Lima, some 10 years ago, the city and the surrounding areas were losing businesses, people, and the CC was extremely welcoming of visitors and potential new members.
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Lima has been struggling since the 70"s (see PBS special "Lost in Middle America", LIMA lol!) and their club has prospered DESPITE building a huge new club house in the mid '90's. Forty miles north on I-75 Findlay CC prospers as well. The size of Lima is irrelevant, the comparison was not necessarily the city size but the idea that a club in a remote location could thrive despite the small population size.
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Wow, we can now come to gca.com and learn about statistics. Normal distributions? I must have missed the lecture in Sociology that went into how housing patterns and demographics can be understood in this way. Probably did my studying that day on the Scarlet course. It did happen more than a few times, but I am making up for it now by sitting in this free online university frequently.
Perhaps Chase can foreclose on PCC and donate it to the town (similar to the other club near Dayton whose owners want to sign over the deed). And maybe BCowan can be enticed to move south and show us and the industry how it is done. Don't remember ever noticing the club on a number of drives down I-75, and I don't recall ever hearing anything about it, but if Steve Lang suggests it is a gem, here's hoping that it doesn't get plowed up.
P.S.- glad to see that Lima is now up to 60k inhabitants (I wonder what changed since the last census) and that Shawnee CC has a waiting list. Last time I visited Lima, some 10 years ago, the city and the surrounding areas were losing businesses, people, and the CC was extremely welcoming of visitors and potential new members.
I'll pass Lou. You are the 14th freest state in the US. I'd move to a top 5. http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over. ''Spending creates prosperity''. It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK. You also should never put your roots down.
Great post Mr Farron. Findlay is a gem.
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I attended a wedding there a few years back, but was only able to peek at the course. That next summer I called and asked if I could come up and play a round and they allowed me to. 80 miles up, 80 miles back to Cincinnati. I am glad that I played it, it was a fun walk. 9 holes Ross, 9 holes Kidwell.
Anyone want me to post the photos?
Yes please.
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I attended a wedding there a few years back, but was only able to peek at the course. That next summer I called and asked if I could come up and play a round and they allowed me to. 80 miles up, 80 miles back to Cincinnati. I am glad that I played it, it was a fun walk. 9 holes Ross, 9 holes Kidwell.
Anyone want me to post the photos?
Yes please.
Yet another vote in favor of seeing photos. This may be our last chance to see the course, so please post away...
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OK, I just browsed through the pictures from when Iplayed Piqua CC, wow time sure flies. June 2006 and I dont remember it being so cloudy. A portion of the course can be seen from I-75 but it is also just as easy to totally miss it. In fact, I never even knew it was there until I went there for a wedding and I must have driven by it hundreds of times going back and forth from Cincy to Detroit. It's pretty easy to figure out which holes are Kidwell. They were actually a lot better than most of the Kidwell stuff I have played in the past 20+ years here in Ohio.
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The 2nd green (in his 2nd post) is a a fun green complex. The 1st green is also very severe. It defends the short opener well!
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Thanks for the photos, Richard. I played Piqua Country Club a few times during high school in the late 90s. Since it has been so long, I didn't remember many of the holes.
It's a shame that the membership put the course/club in jeopardy by building the new clubhouse.
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I think that the last thing a good "golf club" needs is a $2 Million Dollar clubhouse. It sounds like the "golf club" may have been banking on weddings and event rentals for pay for the new clubhouse. I guess that it did not pan out as expected. It will be interesting to see what happens to the golf course.
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I'll pass Lou. You are the 14th freest state in the US. I'd move to a top 5. http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over. ''Spending creates prosperity''. It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK. You also should never put your roots down.
Great post Mr Farron. Findlay is a gem.
I am confused. I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees! My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go). As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics. And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots? But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978. If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.
That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).
Why? (are you taking the class?) You didn't come across as the Quant type.
DFarron,
Lived in Findlay for five summers while in college. I am eternally thankful to the Whirlpool plant there for paying me to work 50+ hour weeks and to Ed Kotlartczyk for letting me buy a summer pass at his Hillcrest GC (where I worked on my game and made my first Ace as he was jogging by the green). Findlay was a very prosperous town anchored by Marathon Oil, Cooper Tire, Whirlpool, Dow, and a sugar refinery whose name escapes me. I suspect that a demographic analysis would show that Findlay has far superior characteristics in terms of supporting a full service CC than Lima and probably Piqua (which I really don't know much about).
Looking at Richard's pictures, it appears that Piqua has the superior course of the three. I hope it can be saved.
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So is anyone going to try to play here before it shuts down? If I was still in Columbus, I'd do it. Unfortunately, I'm not and the weather where I am is decidedly not conducive to golf any time soon.
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That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).
Why? (are you taking the class?) You didn't come across as the Quant type.
I was an actuary for four years once upon a time. Then got an MBA. Then worked at a branding consultancy for nine years doing market research (small data - Excel and SPSS were sufficient).
Now I'm at a predictive analytics company working with bigger data. Working on learning R and Python, and trying to brush up on SQL. I'm not much of a programmer but I'm picking it up. It's hard work keeping up with these kids!
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Oh, I thought you were a brand manager (marketing). Well then, can you tell me why when I left click on a character and drag down to the end of say, a paragraph to copy or delete, it doesn't lock on the highlighted area when I release the button? Is my mouse going bad or is it a malware issue? I've put fresh batteries in, tried to keep the path to the transmitter thing (plugged to the computer) by raising my hand to ensure I am not blocking the signal, but nothing solves the problem. Thoughts?
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I'll pass Lou. You are the 14th freest state in the US. I'd move to a top 5. http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over. ''Spending creates prosperity''. It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK. You also should never put your roots down.
Great post Mr Farron. Findlay is a gem.
I am confused. I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees! My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go). As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics. And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots? But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978. If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.
That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).
Why? (are you taking the class?) You didn't come across as the Quant type.
DFarron,
Lived in Findlay for five summers while in college. I am eternally thankful to the Whirlpool plant there for paying me to work 50+ hour weeks and to Ed Kotlartczyk for letting me buy a summer pass at his Hillcrest GC (where I worked on my game and made my first Ace as he was jogging by the green). Findlay was a very prosperous town anchored by Marathon Oil, Cooper Tire, Whirlpool, Dow, and a sugar refinery whose name escapes me. I suspect that a demographic analysis would show that Findlay has far superior characteristics in terms of supporting a full service CC than Lima and probably Piqua (which I really don't know much about).
Looking at Richard's pictures, it appears that Piqua has the superior course of the three. I hope it can be saved.
''suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).''
What does convert the mythical debt-free Piqua CC mean? Are you confused on how the debt was incurred? Please provide some sort of quote where i said it should be converted into a daily fee golf club? I know you don't like your words twisted and taken out of context, but you love to do it with others. ''Golf-only'', what does that mean? You are inferring that what is good for Dallas National is good for Piqua, which is beyond absurd. I believe in not incurring debt, especially for beautification, repairs are different. You may have too many Yanks in Texas, you also have too many NeoCons. Hillcrest is up for sale. One of the Kotlartczyk brothers wanted to sell and the other didn't. They missed out on making some good money. There is an upscale public Art Hills track in Findlay that put Hillcrest to pasture is my guess.
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I'll pass Lou. You are the 14th freest state in the US. I'd move to a top 5. http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over. ''Spending creates prosperity''. It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK. You also should never put your roots down.
Great post Mr Farron. Findlay is a gem.
I am confused. I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees! My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go). As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics. And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots? But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978. If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.
Deep, infrequent watering may help your root growth.
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8) Richard H. thanks for the pics... brought back better memories than looking at the satellite view...
In regards to Lima & Shawnee CC.. when I lived there in 81-91 last century, we asked one day how much to join? ...The response was, "if you have to ask, its too much!" The regular people belonged to Lost Creek or Hawthorne Hills (Bo Contini was a force) and you could play Tamarac for next to nothing and get in 9 before work... and didn't mind some 90 degree dog leg holes... Always nice to have friends in the various towns,,, like Fostoria, it had a nice CC, or play in dead of winter at Sun Rise, OH and walk on water..
We used to have business dinners at the Shawnee CC because our plant manager belonged there.. there was some big business there, Sohio/StdOhio/BP legacy refinery & chem plants, The Chrysler M-1 tank plant (really cool to see them build tanks,test climb 45 degree hills and race around at 60 mph!), Ford engine plant, P&G soap plant, what was left of Clark Equipment (big excavators digging giant holes in their back yard), the pipeline companies, and the medical complex as mentioned. Very important to note that pipe-fitters in Lima could approach 6-figure salaries!
So distance is one thing, disposable $ probably more important... no big deal to drive to next county, or several away to play golf with friends. While we might play a dozen rounds each spring in 5 days at Southern Pines, one would only play perhaps 3 dozen more times spring to fall, as weather permits. No real reason to belong to a club when wanderlust prevails or you just can't trust the weather... When in TX I've played 4x as much golf and enjoy it.
From Lima, never much reason to stop in Piqua other than the turtles and to get gas... on way to eat in Dayton!
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Not to support. Just to outline. They say that those who can't do, teach, so I figured you might need the concept of a "normal distribution" spelled out a bit.
Thanks for the tutorial. Thankfully, my engineering degree gives me just enough background to understand your "fake normal distribution". And yes, having taught AP Stats reinforces the fact that your fabricated data makes your "study" inherently flawed. You did do a good job of demonstrating how stats can be presented to seemingly support just about any theory a wordy psuedo-statistician-golfer could come up with.
Is that what they say? I guess what drove me away from the golf profession and into teaching math and coaching soccer was having to teach know-it-alls who can't apply basic concepts of rhythm and timing to their unathletic nonrepetitive swing because they're too worried about their face angle at the top; overly concerned about what type of shot they should play when hitting the clubface should be their main goal as it happens all too infrequently. Does that describe you? And what is your profession professor?
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''suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).''
What does convert the mythical debt-free Piqua CC mean? Are you confused on how the debt was incurred? Please provide some sort of quote where i said it should be converted into a daily fee golf club? I know you don't like your words twisted and taken out of context, but you love to do it with others. ''Golf-only'', what does that mean? You are inferring that what is good for Dallas National is good for Piqua, which is beyond absurd. I believe in not incurring debt, especially for beautification, repairs are different. You may have to many Yanks in Texas, you also have too many NeoCons. Hillcrest is up for sale. One of the Kotlartczyk brothers wanted to sell and the other didn't. This missed out on making some good money. There is an upscale public Art Hills track in Findlay that put Hillcrest to pasture is my guess.
I should have know better than to engage you, but I will give it one last try.
In an earlier post on this thread, Jerry Kessler provided a link to an article about a Dayton area CC whose principals were trying to donate it to the community. In a later post, I suggested that a potential solution to the Piqua CC debt problem would be for Chase to foreclose on the club thus eliminating all junior debt. It could then donate the facility to the community. "Mythical", "debt-free", "golf-only", "daily-fee" were my words, which I don't think I was trying to twist. The new structure I proposed is mythical because it is nearly a sure thing that Chase would not just walk away from $2Million (though it is just a drop in the bucket corporately); daily-fee because if it was donated to the community (debt-free), it would be for the benefit of the public and not just the former members whose rights were extinguished in foreclosure; and golf-only because there seems to be a strong opinion here that clubhouses, dining rooms, and pools are big money losers.
As to Dallas National and whatever inferences you thought I was making, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It is my belief that we have an abundance of very knowledgeable back seat drivers on this site who possess incredible vision in hindsight. Decisions made in 1999 may have been quite correct given the information available at the time. Expecting club leaders to anticipate the tragedy of 9/11 and the meltdown of the housing industry in '08 is unreasonable. I know a few things about these matters and wouldn't think of pointing a finger at these decision makers. Sometimes one can make all the right choices and still get run over by a truck.
There is no one club model that works everywhere and every time. There are CCs where the clubhouse and the social activities (read: NOT the golf course) are what drives membership. Dallas CC is one of these. The golf-only model works well for Dallas National probably only 15 miles away. Knowing the type of people that usually rise to positions of authority at private clubs, I give them the benefit of the doubt long before I do some folks on this DG.
You are right about one thing. Texas also has no shortage of "NeoCons". I find these folks rather refreshing as they don't whine like the left or the right, and still have some hope that government can be a force for good. I'd go hunting with Dick Cheney in a heartbeat.
Steve Lang,
My father-in-law was a member at HH. He was a Sheller Globe/Superior Coach distributor so he drove a new Cadillac for two years which Bo Contini would then buy directly like clockwork. Over the years I probably played more than 20 rounds there and bought a couple sets of clubs from Bo. I never played Shawnee, not because we didn't have access, but my F-I-L just preferred HH. Tim Ries was the HP at Shawnee the last time I was there (maybe for dinner) and we had a nice chat about our time at OSU. I never got the impression that the club was snobby, particularly expensive, or all that exclusive. Ditto for Findlay CC.
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8) Lou,
I have some memories of Bo C too, first met him in April 1979 when I investigated the fish kill in his pond after a big big rain... even the crayfish were walking out of the pond after it turned over! He wanted to blame it on P&G... years later he still had fish in the freezer hoping to still pin it on P&G.. and I think I may remember him still driving a Caddy.. it just fit him!
Shawnee CC in those days was pretty well taken care of.. it routinely hosted high school level and regional events. I remember it as tight and good greens.. as we lived at 1616 Fairway Dr on its west side i have some fond memories of walking around there in the evenings with a 7 iron and hawking for balls in some of the woods.. only played it a couple of times in 10 years...
Have a great 2015
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...
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...my engineering degree gives me just enough background to... teach math
Like they were saying.
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Why does seemingly every thread turn out the same? Who gives a sh!t about politics when discussing golf and course architecture? I view golf as an escape from everyday life and concerns. In my professional life I get to discuss and debate and deal with law, tax policy and the political concerns that come along with that. But rarely, if ever does golf have anything to do with that, at least for me.
Piqua is closing. I don't see how Dick Chaney has anything to do with that...maybe I'm missing something?
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...my engineering degree gives me just enough background to... teach math
Like they were saying.
Jason, I'll ask again...what do you do other wax poetic on this website? Watch South Park?
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I received a call from my insurance man today who is a member at Troy. He had lunch today with a member at Piqua who is on the board. Chase is not willing to accept anything less and as of 1/1/15 all employees are being let go according to the source on Piqua's board. The members still want to purchase but not at top dollar.
It boils down to location. Piqua has a much better course than Troy. But Troy has a better location.
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The city of Clayton approved the acceptance of Meadowbrook CC.
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http://www.clayton.oh.us/mediacenter.aspx?VID=45
Interesting watch!
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I'll pass Lou. You are the 14th freest state in the US. I'd move to a top 5. http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over. ''Spending creates prosperity''. It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK. You also should never put your roots down.
Great post Mr Farron. Findlay is a gem.
I am confused. I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees! My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go). As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics. And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots? But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978. If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.
That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).
Why? (are you taking the class?) You didn't come across as the Quant type.
DFarron,
Lived in Findlay for five summers while in college. I am eternally thankful to the Whirlpool plant there for paying me to work 50+ hour weeks and to Ed Kotlartczyk for letting me buy a summer pass at his Hillcrest GC (where I worked on my game and made my first Ace as he was jogging by the green). Findlay was a very prosperous town anchored by Marathon Oil, Cooper Tire, Whirlpool, Dow, and a sugar refinery whose name escapes me. I suspect that a demographic analysis would show that Findlay has far superior characteristics in terms of supporting a full service CC than Lima and probably Piqua (which I really don't know much about).
Looking at Richard's pictures, it appears that Piqua has the superior course of the three. I hope it can be saved.
PIONEER Sugar!
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Yes, it is pioneer sugar the two silos are still there.
I know on a recent trip by Piqua cc the flags were still out.
Chris
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Thanks for posting the link to the city council meeting Jerry. Viewed the relevant parts of it including the owners comments after the city agreed to accept the donation. Very impressive proceedings with the proper questions asked and a reasonable approach mapped out to determine the future of the course. Seems like a nice windfall for the city provided they can have it managed professionally. Don't know anything about the golf course though the aerial appears to show that it has promise for its intended use as a municipal course. I am surprised how low the # of rounds were under the current ownership. Best of luck to Meadowbrook and Clayton.
Richard, I can still remember driving from Columbus that when I could get a whiff from the Pioneer operations, I was close to home.
Steve, I recall the fish kill at HH. I think Bo was still pissed for years after it. That damned 18th hole often ate my lunch, but I always thought it was a good risk/reward hole. Don't remember the P&G plant having a discharge that could get to the lake. I wonder how HH is doing financially. Bo and his family sure ran a tight ship back then.
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(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/537/6RNFK5.jpg)
It was great to get 8 guys together on a winters day! Especially from long distances away! It shows how great of a community GCA really is! Piqua was a good track, it was better than I initially thought. The Ross holes encompassed the land with the best movement. The openers on each side were very solid. Each 9 finished strongly. The short par 3 9th was a great hole. Had a blast today guys
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Congrats to the guys who made the trek. Sounded interesting. Wish I could have made it.
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Ben, Glad you guys squeezed in a round, just in case Piqua CC goes "NLE". How cold was it???
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Many thanks to Jason Thurman and Chris Sturges for doing the legwork that got us on Piqua. And special thanks to Ben for looping me in so I did not miss out. I liked the course quite a bit, with the holes nearest the clubhouse and the road (and frequently used railroad tracks) offering the best design qualities.
I offer one "action" photo: Evan Fleisher in the menacing cross bunker on No. 12.
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/MGMarch_2009/Piqua12-crossbunker.jpg)
It was an enjoyable round with good company. A balmy 38ish and mostly sunny with little breeze. And I got the perfect end to my year in golf: Sturges was kind enough to risk letting me play the 18th with his hickories. I managed a par, which is not bad for a rookie. Is the Hickory Open in my future...?
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Weather was actually pretty decent for a Winter Solstice in mid-Ohio. Sun was out; wind wasn't blowing too hard. All-in-all, a pretty good day to play golf.
I took a lot pictures, but haven't transferred them off my camera. Not expecting great lighting, so I don't know how well they'll turn out.
I'm glad to see there are others like me crazy enough to seek out a (potentially) soon-to-be NLE with Ross holes. Certainly the best holes of the course.
Here's one off my phone of the 19th-hole (really the 9th hole, but equally positioned as a great 19th) hickory hits from the front tee, off into the sunset.
(https://oinkgolf.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/piqua.jpg)
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Truthfully, the weather could have been much worse. The original forecast when we started planning back around Tuesday called for a high of 33 degrees. While we ended up at a balmy high of 40, it should be noted that only one GCA member thought we were a little nuts for driving that far to play in that weather, and everyone else either joined or lamented that they couldn't. Meanwhile, everyone from my "normal life" to whom I disclosed "Hey, I'm driving to Piqua on Sunday to play golf in 35 degree weather at a club that opened in 1896 and has 9 Ross holes!" thought I was insane.
They weren't wrong. I just like to think their reasoning was.
In the end, my 90 minutes was the shortest drive of anyone who came (and I didn't do any of the driving either). We had guys come from as far as Louisville, Cleveland, and Michigan, driving ~3 hours or more.
On to the course:
Piqua CC occupies a charming, gently rolling property. I know very little about the property's history, but it wasn't surprising to hear that the front nine was the Ross nine, as it displays a lot of the characteristics of Ross that form the "signature" of his work. Namely, his hand is revealed through the use of the one substantial slope that descends from the west side of the property down to the stream on the east side of the property. Not surprisingly, the front nine made constant use of the slope and stream to create interesting golf holes.
However, as we ventured out into the north end of the course on 5 and 6, the holes didn't seem to fit. Several of us noted that those two holes felt less "Rossy." You could have told me that 5 was a Ross hole and I would have believed you, as it was a good stout par 5 that used bunkering to create a zig-zagging route to the green despite a straight corridor, and had some excellent green surrounds. The 6th, though, with its retention pond in the middle of the fairway and blind from the tee, just didn't feel right. For that matter, 7 had a very large green compared to the rest of the front nine and the water hazard near the green was also surprising.
Thankfully, HistoricAerials.com filled in some of the gaps. Here's an aerial from 1959, when Piqua still had only nine holes:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7461/16080130415_c50edaca0e_z.jpg)
The Ross corridors then, it can be assumed, are holes 1-4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, and 18. That, of course, adds up to 10 holes and it should be noted that 4 looks a little sparse in the aerial. It's certainly present, but the green is tiny, the bunkering is out of character with the other 9 holes, and the more modern aerial view seems to show a green that has been moved slightly. A more modern view is here:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7479/15457820804_4e88fbd41d_z.jpg)
Perhaps the most noteworthy thing for me is that the 8th has been reversed. In the aerial, the hole playing through that corridor clearly played uphill to a large and well-bunkered green. This isn't surprising, as the water carry on the second shot at 8 felt a little out-of-character compared to other Ross holes I've played. However, I also think it's easily the best par 5 on the course in its current incarnation with its plunging downhill tee shot and risky second. One of my complaints with Ross is that he rarely presents spectacular shots and instead favors more "solid but playable" holes. In the case of the 8th, I really like the current downhill version and my first thought when looking at the uphill version is that it looks like a stout test but perhaps a bit "sloggish." While I chunked my second when I had a chance to reach in two, I drank enough trying to stay warm during the round that I was easily able to imagine the thrill that it must be to hit the green in two. I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on this. There's no doubt to me, though, that while I may prefer today's downhill route, I certainly prefer the bunkering and shaping present in the original. The greenside bunkers look pretty cavernous from the aerial, and the the centerline and wing bunkering playing up the wide corridor looks like a blast.
For me, the standout holes all came from the ones pictured in the aerials above. The current 2, 3, 8, 9, and 18 were probably my favorites. Kidwell's holes weren't poorly designed at all, aside from the headscratcher at 6. They simply occupied far less interesting property. I'd be very interested in learning more about the overall history of the property - when each section was purchased, how the decisions to purchase were made, etc.
One other thought I have when looking at the old aerials: Piqua has some delightfully sporting qualities and is a fun 18 holes with 7 or 8 really good ones. There's real reason to consider the loss of the course a tragic one in the classic sense. Yet, in looking at the 1959 aerial, there's another tragedy. The loss of the bold Ross bunkering and width has removed a lot of scale from Piqua and left several of its holes a bit neutered in their current incarnation. The current 17th and 3rd are the most notable examples, with vastly weaker bunkering by comparison to their 1959 incarnations. The bones of a VERY good 9 hole course are all over Piqua, and it will be a real shame if golf on the property is lost forever. However, as is the case at thousands of other courses across the US, it's equally sad to think of what the course once was compared to what it has become through years of well-intentioned but ultimately detrimental tinkering and benign neglect.
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Jason,
great post. I gotta put together a few groups in June to play 36 @ Tiffin Mohawk (back 9 Ross play it twice forget front) and Findlay CC. Mohawk back 9 has very very good Ross holes with very nice land movement. A must play for a Ross fan.
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Best part of number 6 was that Brian could have hit his ball off the ice on the pond.
Certainly could tell which holes were Ross holes. They were easily the most memorable.
I bet a lot of bets have been settled coming off 18 and playing number 9....probably from that tiny tee box where we hit the hickory club.
Definitely had a great time for my first GCA event....official or unofficial. Great meeting you guys.
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A group of 11 members went off at 9, a sixsome and a fivesome, looked over as we walked to the 10th tee and wondered who was getting their clubs out of their cars. Glad you guys had the chance to play PCC. There is a small group of us that have not missed a month in years.
There is a small group of us who have not missed a month playing golf there in years. That includes one Sunday, Feb 28, in roughly a foot of snow. The golfing members are a little bit hardcore.
As an aside there are not 9 original Ross holes. When I75 was built it eliminated two of the original nine holes and thus a redesign. Don't ask me for the architect. But you can certainly get a sense of Ross on certain holes.
Still hoping the place stays open!
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The 17th green is the most deceptive on the course. It has to be an original Ross green complex.
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Best part of number 6 was that Brian could have hit his ball off the ice on the pond.
I don't suppose Brian was playing a Callaway with three green dots...
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/MGMarch_2009/piqua6.jpg)
After Evan retrieved, it served me well through about 10 holes before being donated to the course.
With apologies for double-posting this image. You will also find it belatedly submitted to the Photo of the Year thread.
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Best part of number 6 was that Brian could have hit his ball off the ice on the pond.
I don't suppose Brian was playing a Callaway with three green dots...
After Evan retrieved, it served me well through about 10 holes before being donated to the course.
With apologies for double-posting this image. You will also find it belatedly submitted to the Photo of the Year thread.
That is absolutely hilarious. I was playing that Callaway, and have marked my ball that way for years. Glad it served you better than me.
It was a fun time with a good group of dedicated golfers. Thanks to Jason for organizing and to Adam and Chris for putting up with me for over 3 hours!
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Mark, that's interesting about I-75. I wonder if that could help explain part of why 4 looks so odd in the aerial from 1959. It seems like it feasibly could have been a longer hole that had to be cut off and had the green rebuilt at an uncharacteristically tiny size before being renovated into its current form. I-75 in that area should have been built sometime around 1957, so the aerial would reflect a fairly recently altered course and it looks like you can still see rubble from the highway construction in certain portions of the 1959 aerial.
9 seems like an obvious candidate to have been added after the fact with the way it sits on that tiny finger of land, but I've seen similar holes on Ross courses previously that make me at least hope that it's original. It's very reminiscent of the 9th at Chattanooga G&CC, which is another heavily altered Ross course.
I can't figure out the routing of the 9 or 10-hole course pictured in the 1959 aerial. (Referring to holes by their current position in the 18 hole routing) the 3rd and the reversed-8th hole both lead to the same general area of the property. 17 would let you move from 8 to one of the eastbound holes that move back toward the clubhouse, but I can't figure out where you would go from 3. Assuming 4 was in play you could obviously play that hole, but then where do you go? 4's green is in its own corner and pretty isolated from any other tee.
Another thing to note is that 2 and 18 both tee off from the same general area at the top of the west ridge of the property, from where they tumble down to the stream. However, in the 1959 aerial, there are three greens that take you to those two tees - 1, 11, and 17. I think there's a lot more to learn about how the Interstate affected Piqua, as it's obvious they had a bastardized routing in 1959 that was likely the direct result of the Interstate construction. The renovation to the course that presumably led to Kidwell's work wasn't really optional - they didn't necessarily need to build 9 more holes, but the 9 or 10 holes that were present in 1959 clearly had an unsustainable routing unless I'm just missing something.
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Any new information on Piqua?
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I went to the website yesterday. The front page thanks everyone for 118 years of patronage. It appears they have ceased operations.
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The bump of this thread reminded me that I have a few more photos from our impromptu GCA gathering. Names withheld to protect the innocent.
The second group putting out on 18. It’s really a great setting for a green.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8667/16270416871_234eba1398_z.jpg)
Four proud Buckeyes, in one sense or another. The putt was made.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8680/16246292586_8efefe5a58_z.jpg)
“Walk tall and carry a big (hickory) stick” – Buford Pusser, the original “Walking Tall”
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8617/16084857570_c182b4d23e_z.jpg)
Andrew Jackson’s nickname was Old Hickory. I don’t know much else about him, but I’m sure this guy does.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7462/16084701298_7e77f0820e_z.jpg)
Obligatory black-and-white final photo of another likely Ross NLE.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7517/15652338693_4b0afee70b_z.jpg)
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Andrew Jackson’s nickname was Old Hickory. I don’t know much else about him, but I’m sure this guy does.
I'm halfway through American Lion right now. Highly recommended. Jackson was very interesting, the first president who wasn't from the political elite (potentially excepting Washington). Swept in by a wave a public popularity stemming from his leadership in the Battle of New Orleans. Did a lot to adapt the role of the president into something much more closely resembling what we have today, for better or for worse. Really scared the dickens out of the establishment. Plus there is some great insight into Clay-Webster-Calhoun.
I have a very well-read friend who recently read a biography of every US President. I'm not that ambitious but am prioritizing a few presidents who I understand to be historically significant but who I don't know much about. Jackson was tops on the list. Polk and Truman will also be in the lineup.
And to keep this on topic, thanks for the added pics. As an Ohio native myself, sad to see this one closing (if that's what does indeed happen). Looks like a lot of quality holes on the premises.
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Parting Shot.
(http://nebula.wsimg.com/328458e609bba14c7588df57baddd8d4?AccessKeyId=55F611C57B7FF65C7345&disposition=0&alloworigin=1)
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I was told by someone close to the situation there is a group of members in negotiations with the bank. They are about 200K apart. Hopefully this will get resolved by the time the weather breaks.
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According to the Miami Valley Golf Association, there might be some good news coming out of Piqua.
http://www.miamivalleygolf.org/Home-MVGolf/Updates-From-Around-The-Area--2627C5015.html?LayoutID=210#.VQbSPhB4o-M
"PCC Has gone through reorganization and will reopen from all indications later this Spring. It will continue to be member owned, all be it a different tax id and different set of member investors."
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Interesting development...thanks for cluing us in!
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According to the website PCC will reopen 5/1/15
Yea!
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http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2015/03/20/dayton-area-country-club-gets-new-owner.html?page=all
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Insane idea:
Tear down the club house (eliminate a lot of overhead and residual expenses), sell off 9 holes of property. Alter the best 9 holes to minimze maintenace (eliminate some bunkers). Start to really test out the minimzation of water, single mowing heights, etc. Operate as a hybrid public-semi-private with a simple modest shed as a clubhouse.
A new business plan cannot change the demographics and per capita income challenge.
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Carl,
Who would be the constituency supporting that idea, though?
Either a fair proportion of members from the old club would have to be interested in belonging to a no-clubhouse, scruffy 9-holer or else there would have to be some money-making opportunity to turn a zillion rounds a year at 10 bucks per nine for very basic golf.
Or is there some source of demand that I'm not thinking of here?
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Brent, of course I do not know the answer to your questions.
The constituency would be the former members and other locals who want to continue to play within their economic realities. For me, the question would be how to make it more than "scruffy".
I have signed up for the Dixie Cup this year and really look forward to teeing it up at Sweeten's Cove, a 9 holer near Chattanooga.
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Carl, it's an interesting thought. One thing that sticks out to me, though, is that the "bargain basement" golf market in Piqua is already pretty well cornered. Echo Hills, Piqua's municipal course, has green fees of $14 for nine holes and $19 for 18. You can easily play 18 with a cart for under $25, and unlimited annual memberships start at $800 for single adults, with various discounted options available for those willing to play at "off" times or who meet certain age requirements.
Basically, I can't see a way that a nine-hole version of Piqua CC with a shed for a clubhouse is going to be able to compete with the 18 hole municipal course across town that has a full clubhouse and driving range and will probably still be able to offer lower prices. There just isn't any value there unless you drop rates to a price that's going to be unprofitable. I think Piqua CC's best shot to survive is through better management and ownership willing to outlay capital when necessary and also willing to rein it in when prudent. There's still a fair chance that the location and demographics limit the club's potential success, but this is probably their best option.
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Thanks for posting, I hope they can make a go of it. I thought I had heard they had recently redone/ built the current club house? It makes very little sense to then tear it down. The day we played, the clubhouse seemed to be doing a lot of business. Maybe that was just because they were closing soon.
If you are in the area I would play there while it is still 18 holes. If they do have to sell property I hope it is the flat and uninspired part of the course away from the current clubhouse.
chris
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According to the Miami Valley Golf Association, there might be some good news coming out of Piqua.
http://www.miamivalleygolf.org/Home-MVGolf/Updates-From-Around-The-Area--2627C5015.html?LayoutID=210#.VQbSPhB4o-M
"PCC Has gone through reorganization and will reopen from all indications later this Spring. It will continue to be member owned, all be it a different tax id and different set of member investors."
New news....just received a Career Links Profile (PGA Job Listing) for Piqua CC. The package was very generous in compensation and benefits.
There may be hope!