Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on November 04, 2014, 11:13:54 AM
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About four years ago I was on a golf trip with four friends. We were touring western Virginia and West Virginia. Outside Roanoke we played a wild and outrageous golf course. It had recently opened and was still a little rough around the edges, but we were awed by its natural beauty and stunned by the quality golf that ran throughout its undulating 18 holes. The golf course is laid out on 370 acres of heaving and, for the most part, treeless holes. Now some four years on, Ballyhack has matured into an outstanding club and exceptional course. Those lucky enough to have played it will not soon forget its large turbulent greens or the oversized fairways and bunkers. Lester George’s daring design rewards good shots but a wayward shot will be chastened. Because Ballyhack is on such a large piece of ground the scale is enormous and grand.
Wade Whitehead and I, with Lester George chiming in here and there, will do a hole-by-hole tour of the course. It should be interesting because Wade and I play very different games. I am short off the tee and old. Wade is long and young. I play to a six and Wade is about a one.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/2020_orig_zps79efe8ef.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/2020_orig_zps79efe8ef.jpg.html)
Ballyhack has seven cottages and the welcoming clubhouse is a short cart ride away. Each cottage sleeps four.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020066_zps32989b60.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020066_zps32989b60.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020179_zps887e8fa6.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020179_zps887e8fa6.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020068_zps361f4f87.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020068_zps361f4f87.jpg.html)
The trip to the first tee lets the player know what is in store as most of the front nine is in view.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020065_zpscaeb7c8e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020065_zpscaeb7c8e.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020064_zpsea0a6957.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020064_zpsea0a6957.jpg.html)
This view looks back on nine and on the left are seven and eight.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020249_zps32d5d582.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020249_zps32d5d582.jpg.html)
This view is of the par four sixth.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040546_zps0bdad4ec.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040546_zps0bdad4ec.jpg.html)
Hole 1: par four--249 from forward tees and 399 from back tees. 321 and 349 from the tees most use. Plays uphill.
The first hole looks much more daunting than it is. But that is true of much of the course. The carry is not nearly as long as it looks and the fairway is wide. If, however, you are too far right and short the second shot is blind. I usually try to hit it to the middle right for the best angle, especially if the flag is back left.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040545_zps138099af.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040545_zps138099af.jpg.html)
The look back toward the tee from the landing area.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040547_zps7f0d9647.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040547_zps7f0d9647.jpg.html)
The second shot is decidedly uphill and the green has a large false front. The top of pin is barely visible on the left side of the picture. The right side does not have as large a false front and I will sometimes hit it there but it leaves a long putt. I usually hit three more clubs than the yardage would dictate. I don’t get the ball as high as I used to, and if I go towards the left side of the green it is a more difficult shot for me.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040548_zpsc0a7be79.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040548_zpsc0a7be79.jpg.html)
You have to be pretty far afield to be in this bunker, but my buddy was a daring explorer this day.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040549_zps27cfb582.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040549_zps27cfb582.jpg.html)
Like most greens complexes, there is a lot of movement, undulation, and slope.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040551_zps417ab369.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040551_zps417ab369.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040553_zpsafcde331.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040553_zpsafcde331.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040554_zps78af73ec.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040554_zps78af73ec.jpg.html)
The look back is just splendid.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020220_zps70a7bc42.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020220_zps70a7bc42.jpg.html)
The walk to the next tee gives the player a glimpse of what is to come. In view here is the fifth green, the sixth fairway below, and the ninth fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040556_zpsa64ac772.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040556_zpsa64ac772.jpg.html)
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As I am at some level the instigator of this thread, you could not expect me to remain siient. See other Ballyhack thread. "...what do you care to measure?..."
Will there be any overarching themes of this thread? Suggestion:
- The interface of the visuals versus how does the shot play and with that local knowledge - comfort level and ability level.
For me, I play to a shortish hitting 5.9 index, comfort-confidence level with the shot that is presented is a constant problem for me at Ballyhack. If I could play there twice a month, I think that I could over time overcome that to a point. This issue presents itself no more so than the first hole.
Tommy, I hope your pictures show a lot of tee & fairway eye level views.
I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.
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Agree that the drive is less challenging than it is visually intimidating. I use a three wood and have hit the fairway all 6 times I have played it. There is a bowl up along the right side of the fairway that seems to be where I usually end up. There really seems to be no reason to try to get past it as the fairway just narrows and becomes more steep.
I find the first green to be very challenging. Once you realize that there is a large false front element to the front third to half of the green and you need to hit enough club to get it to stay back there the challenge becomes a spine that separates the left and right sides of the back half of the green. Left-side pin placements are very challenging to putt to from across the ridge as everything is running away from you. However the visual from the fairway up to the left pins is blind over the greenside bunker and I have not gotten a good comfort as to how much room is over there. At the George Cup I hit this green on 4 of 5 rounds, always either along or to the right of the spine, and made par twice. Two three putts and a four putt going across the ridge to a left pin after hitting the first putt off the green trying to get past the pin so that I could have something uphill for my par putt.
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I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.
Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this. You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult
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I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.
Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this. You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult
Scroll back to the pic of the Tommy's friend in the bunker. That bunker shot presents enormous problems both in direction and distance. A shot short and the ball goes down the false front for 20 yards, long down a very steep slope in thick rough or left into an 8 foot deep bunker. Any number of ways to put an 'X' on the card. If I hit it in that bunker, a shot 20 feet from the hole would be lucky and marvelous. See my previous thread on Ballyhack recovery shots for double digit handicappers.
Hole after hole has these problems.
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I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.
Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this. You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult
My game cycles in the 3-5 index range and I find Ballyhack to be a very difficult course to score on for a full round. Saying that, it is one of if not the most fun very difficult course that I have played. Pretty much every shot can jump up and bite you and while I've made it around the course a few times without losing a ball I admittedly was hitting the ball fairly well. I think short and crooked would be a very bad combination.
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I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.
Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this. You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult
Chris, no one will dispute that Ballyhack is a difficult course and that a double is always around the corner. Last week I was one over standing in the middle of the ninth fairway. I made a triple. I made two stupid decisions and paid the price. Ballyhack requires a good assessment of what each player is capable of doing. The course is much more playable than many think because the course can get into your head. If you try to steer the ball around the course you're not gonna be happy. You have to think well and commit to your shots. I know it sounds like a cliche, but it is true.
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I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal. Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter?
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I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal. Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter?
One is much more likely to lose a ball or card an X at Ballyhack than at Ballyneal, in my view. I think Carl overstates his case a bit, but Ballyhack deserves its high slope. It is certainly a very fun match play course.
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I've played Ballyneal and Kingsley. Ballyhack is reminiscent of Kingsley a bit. The terrain is similar and the look is similar. Ballyneal is a little more forgiving off the tee but more punishing on the greens. I don't like the epithet of "match play courses," but understand your comments. For me the challenge is to keep my head for 18 holes. When I do, I can score well. When I overreach I score poorly. Everyday I have to ask myself, "What game do I bring to the course?" It determines what I do. For instance on the first hole my drives generally end up in similar places regardless of the state of my game. I will usually have about 120 yards to the center of the green. If I feel confident I'll go at the pin. If not I will hit it out to the right side of the green where the false front is not so foreboding. We have to do that on most courses, obviously. But at Ballyhack you have to be a realist to play well.
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Some beautiful pics; can't wait to get down there. Is there as much going on, visually, as it appears from a couple of the pictures of the first hole? From the tee, there's a ravine, a snake/dragon-styled shaped bunker, a bunch of bunkers stuck up in the hill right, a potentially blind second shot, bunkers short of the green (including a pot-sized one), a fairway that ends before the green, and a bunker left of the green. That's a lot of stuff going on.
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I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal. Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter?
I greatly enjoy Ballyhack and I do think Carl is exaggerating to make his point. I am a double digit handicap and have scored really well at Ballyhack and also scored really poorly. The comment regarding commitment to your shot and good decision making is spot on. Ballyhack is intimidating but playable with good decision making.
As to the comparison with Kingsley, I think the comparison stops at aesthetics and even that is quite minor once you get beyond the hay. I think a better comparison, architecturally, would be Olde Farm (though the property is less severe at Olde Farm).
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Some beautiful pics; can't wait to get down there. Is there as much going on, visually, as it appears from a couple of the pictures of the first hole? From the tee, there's a ravine, a snake/dragon-styled shaped bunker, a bunch of bunkers stuck up in the hill right, a potentially blind second shot, bunkers short of the green (including a pot-sized one), a fairway that ends before the green, and a bunker left of the green. That's a lot of stuff going on.
Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway. The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!
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Some beautiful pics; can't wait to get down there. Is there as much going on, visually, as it appears from a couple of the pictures of the first hole? From the tee, there's a ravine, a snake/dragon-styled shaped bunker, a bunch of bunkers stuck up in the hill right, a potentially blind second shot, bunkers short of the green (including a pot-sized one), a fairway that ends before the green, and a bunker left of the green. That's a lot of stuff going on.
Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway. The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!
I think the severity of the false front comes back to the decision making issue. After one's first play of the hole, there is no reason not to take an extra half/full club and play to the back of the green or back fringe. I think the difficulty of the first hole is overstated. It is a ~180 yard carry from the blue tees to a 40+ yard wide fairway.
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EDIT: Adding in the aerial map of the property with routing, The front 9 is north of Pitzer Road, while the back 9 is south.
Front Nine:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/22zst4.jpg)
Back Nine:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/29y3582.jpg)
Also, adding a link to the Ballyhack website. If you click on "Tour," this will give you 360 degree visuals from the tees, landing areas, and greens (along with some pro tips).
http://www.ballyhackgolfclub.com/ (http://www.ballyhackgolfclub.com/)
Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway. The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!
There was a recent change in maintenance to avoid the severe roll-back. There is now a cut of rough across the fairway roughly 5-10 yards short of the green. I think this was a significant improvement. Last year, all balls accumulated into the same small area and were usually stopped by a divot, making for a very difficult recovery. Now, they still move towards the same general area, but don't tend to end in a hole.
It's still a penalty for getting caught on the false front, but it doesn't tend to compound like it did in the past.
The one complimentary feature to the false front is the severe slope on the back of the green. After getting caught by the front, you can usually throw your recovery deep and let it roll back towards the pin.
EDIT: Adding in the aerial for Hole #1:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/3357f3o.jpg)
I added in the carry distances from the various tees. Even from the tips, it is only 220, and that is from a very elevated tee. But once you get to the lower 4 decks, if you don't carry the ravine, it's because you hit a very bad shot, not because of the distance requirement.
From the Ballyhack Tees (2nd longest), I drew in a 225-230 tee shot, which still leaves you in the 125 range. It's definitely not an onerous hole, but just visually intimidating.
I also estimated the false front area (in red) and where most balls used to end up (in green). Because this green area was such a divot minefield, the change I noted above was made.
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Haven't read any responses yet, but:
I believe the first shot at Ballyhack is the most exciting in golf. It's epic (though imminently achievable by almost every player).
Even though it sits at a diagonal (a theme that Lester maximizes through the property), the first fairway is much closer and wider than the first-time player realizes. The scar bunker and the lack of trees (and other familiar scale makers) can cause instant trepidation among first-timers. I have listened to many players talk themselves out of a good shot before even addressing the ball. In addition, repeated plays reveal that the line on #1 (as happens throughout the round) must be played to a distant target. The greenside bunker provides the perfect line (which is unnoticed by 99% of players). Still, a gentle handshake this is not!
The approach is difficult because any shot played to the front third of the green will be rejected. A ball must by played to the back of the surface (which is why the bank behind the green is closely-mown). Line is critical; Tommy points out that a shot to the right side can hold, but an approach to the left can find the greenside bunker, which presents very difficult recovery. Line is critical, and the tip of the leaning tree in Tommy's approach shot is frequently the perfect aiming point.
The green is subtle and is generally read correctly by most players. I see fewer three putts on the first green than just about any other.
#1 introduces the player to a difficult opening stretch of five holes (save, perhaps, for number 2) that will test both skill and resolve. Players immediately realize that no shot can be overlooked and that Lester will position them precisely between disaster and glory as the day proceeds.
Another note: As the player journeys from the clubhouse to the first tee, seven of the opening nine holes are visible at once. Very few golf courses reveal themselves so fully before the first shot is struck.
WW
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I like the 1st a lot- but I would like it even more if it wasn't the first. Agree with JC that it's not as nasty as it looks, but it's no gentle handshake. The mitigation of the false front penalty is a big help in playability.
I think Ballyhack has some interesting comparisons with Kingsley but maybe even more with Dismal White. All three are big, bold roller coaster rides. What fun.
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From the first through the eighteenth, Ballyhack requires an aggressive swing at a conservative target.
Get this backwards and the golf course will punish you.
WW
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Thanks in advance for this photo tour, TDub. I've had Ballyhack on my radar for awhile now.
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Thanks for putting this together, Tommy, Wade, and Lester.
It's usually noted that elevation doesn't show up well in photographs. What's the change in elevation from the front of the fairway to the back of the green at the first?
Tommy's and Wade's comments about not trying to "steer the ball around the course" and about "players talking themselves out of hitting a good shot" ring true for certain double-digit handicappers (including me) on any course. I think the width of the playing corridors--essentially no trees in play on the property--make a good score at Ballyhack especially achievable for players who avoid these mental mistakes. While there are a lot of ways to lose your ball or otherwise make a double or more, there are also a lot of smart ways to play each hole.
Wade: I really enjoyed seeing the before/after photos during the George Cup. Would you be able to post these here?
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#2 Par five 538, 514,487,463
I love the second hole. Most players do. Almost anyone can make a birdie. Depending on skill and length number two can be played any number of ways. For the most part there is little elevation change.
Standing on the tee the fairway looks impossibly wide. It is, but three bunkers determine which line to take. I pretty much hit it left of the left bunker. I usually get a flat lie, but a bunker can grab a less than stellar second shot. It is not the best angle for a second shot. Longer hitters can hit it over the middle bunker and have a relatively flat lie and have a good angle to go for the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040555_zps19d3e2b1.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040555_zps19d3e2b1.jpg.html)
This view is from the fifth green. It displays the entire hole. At the top right is the green with a bunker that fronts a very wide and relatively flat green. It is a skyline green so the only thing a player sees one either the second or third shot is a flag and the deep bunker looming menacing the green. It is possible to get home in two but you need to be on the correct side of the green or have a very lengthy eagle putt. Miss the second shot just short of the green and you have a flop shop from a tight lie.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020075_zpsa88e504d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020075_zpsa88e504d.jpg.html)
This is the sight from the middle bunker as a player prepares his second shot. The bunker on the left makes the landing area look smaller than it really is. In truth there is a lot of room from 100 yards in.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040558_zpsd100e377.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040558_zpsd100e377.jpg.html)
This picture was taken about 100 yards from the hole. I seem to be here quite a bit. I would rather have a 100 yard shot than 50 yards on this hole. The lies here tend to be tight and, while I like my 54 and 60 degree wedges, I’d rather not have one on this hole. The pin is left of the bunker.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040559_zps00da1785.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040559_zps00da1785.jpg.html)
This is from closer in.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040559_zps680d62b7.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040559_zps680d62b7.jpg.html)
Looking back from just short of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020076_zpsf82bb2ba.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020076_zpsf82bb2ba.jpg.html)
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Man, the rough around the bunkers looks so lush. I would think that is a perfect place to cut fairway all the way to the edge to encourage the ball to find the hazard. Otherwise the hole looks very interesting. Looking forward to the rest of the course. Thanks
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This is my favorite hole on the course .... very playable for all. I aim to the left of the far left bunker and let the ball roll down hill between the bunkers. The blind second shot does not bother me. The green is huge, but must be hit, severe fall offs on 3 sides.
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As I am at some level the instigator of this thread, you could not expect me to remain siient. See other Ballyhack thread. "...what do you care to measure?..."
Will there be any overarching themes of this thread? Suggestion:
- The interface of the visuals versus how does the shot play and with that local knowledge - comfort level and ability level.
For me, I play to a shortish hitting 5.9 index, comfort-confidence level with the shot that is presented is a constant problem for me at Ballyhack. If I could play there twice a month, I think that I could over time overcome that to a point. This issue presents itself no more so than the first hole.
Tommy, I hope your pictures show a lot of tee & fairway eye level views.
I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.
I'm a big fan of the use of psychological hazards, because they stay with you and add a layer of intrigue. Semi-blind landing areas, elevated greens, awkward lies, etc are all little twists that keep you from having a "standard" shot and ensure a hole never becomes boring after repeated plays. Ballyhack features these in so many ways.
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Man, the rough around the bunkers looks so lush. I would think that is a perfect place to cut fairway all the way to the edge to encourage the ball to find the hazard. Otherwise the hole looks very interesting. Looking forward to the rest of the course. Thanks
The lush rough around the bunkers are a much worse hazard than the bunkers themselves. There is always a sense of relief when you find the ball in the bunker proper as opposed to being caught up along the edges where the ball can easily be lost or else leave a very difficult chop out with no real chance at advancing the ball in any meaningful way. Number 2 is a visually awesome hole. The severity of the middle bunker and its immediate surrounds make the play out to the left the reasonable play given multiple rounds. The play over the middle bunker or through the speed slot between the left and middle bunker is so much fun. I just think the maintenance of the middle bunker likely makes it too risky.
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Two generally plays downwind (and often HARD downwind). The fairway bunkers form a diagonal that requires the player to pick a line carefully. At least one of the bunkers is in play for almost any player from any tee.
The lion's mouth bunker in front of the green influences any approach. Lies in front of the green tend to be very tight.
The second is the player's introduction to Ballyhack's multiple half-par holes and was the only hole to play under par during the 2014 Virginia State Open.
The view from the tee really is one of golf's great looks. It's a wow moment during every round.
WW
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Jim: Actually, the lie next to the fairway bunkers can be preferable to actually finding the sand.
Grass around many of the bunkers is maintained at a lower height than it once was. Native grasses originally pervaded bunker surrounds (including the fairway bunkers on #2) but the grass is now maintained at a much more playable cut.
I have seen players reach the putting surface from the rough around the fairway bunkers but I have never seen a ball played from the bunkers themselves end up on the green.
Perhaps Lester can speak to Lance's excellent question: Was mowing the fairway cut all the way to the bunkers ever a consideration?
WW
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I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal. Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter?
One is much more likely to lose a ball or card an X at Ballyhack than at Ballyneal, in my view. I think Carl overstates his case a bit, but Ballyhack deserves its high slope. It is certainly a very fun match play course.
Ballyhack can certainly bring the volatility in scoring which can be disconcerting in a stroke play format. But good scores can be had even for a mid handicap. My index floats between 9 & 10 (12-13 course handicap at Ballyhack), but I've posted several sub-40 nines at Ballyhack. It's just difficult to avoid severe punishment for 18 holes.
Put another way, the individual shot demands are not unreasonable, but loose swings get punished and can tend to compound. Using #1 as an example, it's a 3 wood / 8/9 iron for me, which isn't unrealistically demanding. But catch that approach a little heavy, and you can bring 6 into play from the false-front collection area. Overclub too much to get over the false front, and the pitch from just over the green is pretty frightening as well. You're always riding the edge, but it's not unfair in any way.
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Jim: Actually, the lie next to the fairway bunkers can be preferable to actually finding the sand.
Grass around many of the bunkers is maintained at a lower height than it once was. Native grasses originally pervaded bunker surrounds (including the fairway bunkers on #2) but the grass is now maintained at a much more playable cut.
I have seen players reach the putting surface from the rough around the fairway bunkers but I have never seen a ball played from the bunkers themselves end up on the green.
Perhaps Lester can speak to Lance's excellent question: Was mowing the fairway cut all the way to the bunkers ever a consideration?
WW
I would agree with Wade on this one (unless Jim is recalling the maintenance from his first visit in 2013). In prior years, there were times when being a few feet from the sand was nasty, but I think the general presentation this year was much more favorable (perhaps even leading to flier lies). Plus, the sand at Ballyhack tends to be softer and I struggle hitting longer shots from the fairway traps).
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Like most everyone else, I love the 2nd hole and the myriad of ways it can be attacked. Drives placed between the 2nd and 3rd bunker need to account for the sharp right kick. What's even more surprising is how far a ball played left of all three bunkers will run out.
I generally prefer approaching from the right side. Even though it will be visually obscured, I feel more comfortable hitting at the target from an angle (across the corner rough / bunkers) rather than straight down the fairway (from Tommy's picture). Plus, I've found that lies on the left side are often slightly downhill, while lies from the right are uphill.
When I first played this hole, I thought that the worst place was in the greenside bunker. Over the years, I've discovered that being 10-20 yards short of the bunker is exponentially worse. As Wade and Tommy alluded, the tight lies short of the green make for very difficult pitches. Sometimes you have to accept that's it's better to accept a long two putt for par than risk a big number trying to leave a short birdie effort.
EDIT: Adding in the 2nd Hole aerial after the fact:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/208fpuf.jpg)
The red drive was added to show how much you need to account for the slope of the landing area between the bunkers.
With the huge greenside bunker, you really need to plan quite a bit for your angles of approach. This is especially true if you try to layup inside of 100 yards, as it is hard to generate the spin necessary to get close if you're on the opposite side of the fairway. I always hope to hit a little bump and run when I can't get home in 2, but that's only an option if I'm well positioned.
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Looking back from just short of the second green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020076_zpsf82bb2ba.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020076_zpsf82bb2ba.jpg.html)
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Great hole- one of my favorite par 5s anywhere. Starts a theme on the par 5s- easy/fun tee shot followed by a really nasty 2nd shot with a lot of options. To me this is the signature hole at BH. Interesting that hardly any drives manage to find the gnarly trio of bunkers. The contours seem to deflect balls into nice resting places. So much bad can happen on the 2nd shot. Left is brutal and rights no picnic. One of my goals is to make birdie from the 3rd teebox. The green seems benign- no major internal contours (saving them up for around the corner)- but there are some potentially tragic pins (front left). Great start to a great day.
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Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway. The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!
There was a recent change in maintenance to avoid the severe roll-back. There is now a cut of rough across the fairway roughly 5-10 yards short of the green. I think this was a significant improvement. Last year, all balls accumulated into the same small area and were usually stopped by a divot, making for a very difficult recovery. Now, they still move towards the same general area, but don't tend to end in a hole.
still a penalty for getting caught on the false front, but it doesn't tend to compound like it did in the past.
Bhack's 1 gave me a similar feeling on the first play as Black Mesa's. ?????? I don't give either course a high mark for its introductory hole, though Bh's at least is representative of what's to come.
It is true that the tee shot is not unduly demanding for a starting hole after playing it for the first time. The approach to the green, however, could be much friendlier. My recollection is that the second shot, though with a short iron or wedge, is considerably uphill. Coupled with the severe false front and that many if not most players haven't loosened up yet, the ball is likely to come up considerably short, often into a minefield of divots. The subsequent pitch is no picnic, and even if you get it on the green, the fun is just beginning. A starting hole such as this one on a busy course would set the tee sheet back. With a 9-iron approach from the fairway on the first day and a wedge on the second, both hit reasonably well for me, I am a combined 3-over on that hole.
I can't picture a strip of rough across the fairway. Wouldn't a bench in the slope drained laterally (to the W as I recall) work better?
In defense of #1, #2 is a fun hole where three well hit shots can redeem the start of the round.
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Lou, Lester installed a ring of blue grass (?) rough around the fringe of the green. Balls that come off the false front are stopped from going very far and they do not all gather in one spot. I think one of the mistakes players make is to take the false front on. If I am not warmed up properly I will aim for the right part of the green where the false front does not affect the shot. It generally leaves a longer putt, but at least it is a putt.
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scorecard
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/2020_orig_zps79efe8ef.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/2020_orig_zps79efe8ef.jpg.html)
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#3 par three--251, 211, 174, 143, 111
The third hole has one of the wilder greens on the course and has innumerable pin placements that range from relatively benign to fiendish. Slope and undulation are difficult to see on pictures but this green has as much movement as any on the course.
View from up near the second green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040562_zps30bc5d31.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040562_zps30bc5d31.jpg.html)
From the tee. The green slopes toward the front on the right side and there is a bailout area short and right of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020077_zps92edaaa2.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020077_zps92edaaa2.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040564_2_zpsf446ae77.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040564_2_zpsf446ae77.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020077_2_zps6ab086b4.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020077_2_zps6ab086b4.jpg.html)
In the middle back is a shelf that is the flattest spot on the green. Over the bunker is a bowl. Any shot close will feed down to the pin. My wife left her tee shot hanging on the lip!
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040564_zps5a93e7ee.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040564_zps5a93e7ee.jpg.html)
This photo gives a good idea of the rise on the front right. The pin is on that flat shelf.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040565_zps8779356b.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040565_zps8779356b.jpg.html)
The bunkers on this hole are very playable, which is good. The hole doesn’t need to be any harder.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020079_zps91ca3f0e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020079_zps91ca3f0e.jpg.html)
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scorecard
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/2020_orig_zps79efe8ef.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/2020_orig_zps79efe8ef.jpg.html)
What are the slope and course ratings?
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Maybe I just haven't played the course enough, but I don't find anything about the first hole to be over the top. I actually think it's as much a "firm handshake" hole as there is at Ballyhack.
Considering the difficulty of the course and how quickly it could get out of hand from the wrong set of tees, is it a good thing that the first hole involves a forced carry? I think it's the kind of feature that immediately forces players to consider their own abilities and more carefully judge the tees they've chosen and whether they should reconsider if they've been too ambitious, which is probably beneficial for their enjoyment and also for pace of play.
The second is an excellent hole, as others have mentioned. I'll be interested to hear what others think of the third.
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RE: Number 2
Wade and Kevin - I was referring to the bunker surrounds more in general than in terms of number 2's specifically. I agree in this case that being in the fairway bunkers will not allow any meaningful advancement. As a general rule I have found that being in the bunkers proper leaves a better chance of recovery than being along the edges. 2014 was less extreme than in 2013 although there is still a lot of potential grief along the edges. This is true not just of Ballyhack but other courses such as Ballyneal that have more "minimalist" and informal bunker edges.
Kevin - I also think the second on number 2 from the right side past the middle bunker is the preferred second shot compared to the left side of the fairway. It just sets up well for me. Saying that, I am not sure that having it makes up for the risk of taking on the bunkers.
The green is fairly benign. I think the play is to get as close as you can while preferably leaving yourself on the same side of the fairway as the pin is set that day. This leaves a little ground game 6 or 7-iron bump chip. If you do end up on the wrong side of the fairway taking on the bunker is not forced since a chip to the "wrong" side of the green should still leave you a reasonable two putt.
This green is really exposed to the wind and being able to keep shots down towards the ground is not a bad plan.
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The left side of the second green slopes away from the player. While the green is less dramatic (in contour) it makes judging pace difficult.
The third is another half par hole. Any player who takes eight shots combined on #2 and #3 is going to have a good day.
From the back tee to a back left pin, into the prevailing wind, the third can play 260+. The fairway short and right of the green is there for a reason!
For future reference, if you stand on the third tee and don't feel a breeze, it's into your face. The hillside to the left blocks the wind, which blows above the trees and over the third pinflag (which rarely moves at all).
WW
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Maybe I just haven't played the course enough, but I don't find anything about the first hole to be over the top. I actually think it's as much a "firm handshake" hole as there is at Ballyhack.
To be clear about my comments, they weren't about the difficulty of the first hole, but about the number of different things going on (visually at least)....
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Big picture comment: My comments and observations are based on 3 years of playing in the George Cup and one round when the course was less than a year old when a trailer was the clubhouse. I have seen players of varying ability play the course.
Third Hole:
The Third Hole is one of the more what I would call a more straight forward but very hard hole. If you play from the correct tee (not from the 251 tee) and hit the correct club slightly under the hole, par is possible. However, the overly aggressive or the hole high but wide (particularly left), the huge green slopes put a big number in play.
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#4 par four--467,447,411,379
The fourth hole is the most difficult hole on the course for me. I make more bogies here than any other hole. In fact, I make more doubles here than any other hole. That shouldn’t be surprising because it is the number one handicap hole as well. On most of the holes I will jump back and forth between tee markers. One of the most fun things to do at Ballyhack is to play from different tees. I had a friend at the course last week. We played 72 holes in two days. We never chose the same set of tees for the entire round. Instead we jumped back and forth. Not here. He always played the hole at 379 yards and I at 411. I have played the hole further back but it becomes a par five for me. The key to this hole is the tee shot. Hit a good one and you can have a short iron into the green. Hit one off line and you have an easy bogey. The fairway has a strip of rough bisecting it in half. In essence there are two fairways, an upper and a lower.
This is a view from the right side of the fairway (actually, near the second green). The upper fairway is the target, unless you can just bomb it over the nob in the center of the fairway/rough. A well struck ball will bound down to the bottom of the fairway and some 150 yards from glory. If, however, a tee ball is hooking it might go through the fairway into the rough and you have to decide either to lay up or chance hitting the shot over a large ravine. The lower fairway is more level than it appears on this photo and often a ball that is hit in the strip of rough will trundle down to the lower fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040561_zps422fee52.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040561_zps422fee52.jpg.html)
I will aim at the white house or the nob in the fairway. If I hit is well I can carry the nob. Periodically I will lay back and leave myself 190 yards or so and not take the risk of running through the fairway. It is no bargain, however, because the shot into the green is pretty daunting.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020080_zpsbb640706.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020080_zpsbb640706.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040566_zps5988f352.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040566_zps5988f352.jpg.html)
Miss the fairway into the middle rough and you pitch out.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020082_zps2f008a26.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020082_zps2f008a26.jpg.html)
If you lay back this is the shot that is faced.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020230_zps0d5f8d53.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020230_zps0d5f8d53.jpg.html)
Hit a good drive and the second shot is anywhere from 160 to 130 yards. I think it is the most exciting shot on the golf course. The green has redan qualities. The green runs from right to left. The pin that is right and back is on a shelf, which makes a birdie putt makeable. For me it is the easiest pin. I can fly it just short of the green and let it bounce up. The pin that is left and long is tricky. Flying it all the way to the hole is not a shot I have. I have to hit the shot to the front of the green and let the slope take it to the hole.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040571_zpse02cd8f1.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040571_zpse02cd8f1.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040570_zpscd022a79.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040570_zpscd022a79.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020083_zps383a7707.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020083_zps383a7707.jpg.html)
I don’t think I have birdied the hole more than a handful of times. I have made many more doubles than birdies. When I walk off with a par I am thrilled.
Looking back and remembering the bloodbath that transpired.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040575_zps7a5bf978.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040575_zps7a5bf978.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020231_zpsc77d830b.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020231_zpsc77d830b.jpg.html)
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Tommy, I agree with your comments. How can one get a double on this hole? Very easy .... and not hit really bad shots.
I find the tee shot quite befuddling as, for me, a well struck drive may bound around all over the place (see the amount of terrain movement in the middle of the different slivers of fairways) and I don't have a shot.
If very lucky, and I have a straightforward approach shot, I find that the landing area just to hit the green, never mind where the pin is, very small. Being very short or very long is very easy and a problematic up and down because there is an up and over domed 40 or 50 foot shot at a very high green speed.
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Regarding the tee shot on #2: I agree with Jim S's comments. Going left of the left bunker will leave you a longer approach, but it is from a flattish lie and leaves you with a clear view of the green. Going right of it [over the center bunker] and hitting a perfect shot may leave you closer, but the margin for error is slim, because it brings into play the left and center bunkers and also the bowl past and right of the center bunker, from where the second shot is completely blind.
It's a testament to Lester's strategic design that (by my count) two of you guys wrote that you prefer shots from the right side, even though I wouldn't intentionally hit it there myself.
For the third shot on #2, yes, you'll have a tricky pitch from a tight lie with little room for error and death awaiting a pull or a ball that carries the green.
#4 is a scary and confusing tee shot for me. The tee shot is effectively quite narrow unless you plan on getting it past the knoll and into the lower fairway. Just curious, what's the justification for the strip of rough in the middle? Is it because the slope is too steep for mowers? Simply to add complexity to the hole? Or to slow down balls that might otherwise hit the hill and then bound into the ravine? (If the latter, it certainly doesn't stop all balls from finding that fate.)
Chris: here are the ratings and slopes:
76.1/155
73.5/152
71.0/146
68.7/139
for women:
74.8/147
72.5/144
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The bisecting rough strip on the fourth seems a bit odd, as it most likely penalizes a good drive. I also wonder what the thoughts were behind this? Missing right looks terrible. To me, either softening the middle slope or widening one of the fairways would optimize a very visually rewarding approach. I'm guessing a lot of players wish they had a clean approach after thinking they hit a good drive.
Great photos and tour so far. I look forward to seeing the rest.
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The bisecting rough strip on the fourth seems a bit odd, as it most likely penalizes a good drive. I also wonder what the thoughts were behind this? Missing right looks terrible. To me, either softening the middle slope or widening one of the fairways would optimize a very visually rewarding approach. I'm guessing a lot of players wish they had a clean approach after thinking they hit a good drive.
Great photos and tour so far. I look forward to seeing the rest.
I'd like Lester to pipe in at this time. I had a conversation with him last week and specifically asked him about the center strip of rough. If I understood him correctly he said that it may come out and become all fairway.
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The genius of the fourth hole is its switchback feature. Most architects would have routed it along one side of the hazard or another; Lester takes it down the left side, then across to the right. The tee shot moves from left to right, but the approach moves from right to left. Without realizing it, most players are made uncomfortable by this simple - but important - decision.
In my experience, the strip of rough serves a couple of purposes. It provides a clear marker for the ideal line (left). It also keeps balls that land in that area from bounding right into the hazard. The right sliver of fairway gets lots of comments, but I often react the same way I do when folks criticize the short porch on #15: Pretend it isn't there. In day to day play, there is an occasional loose shot that ends up on the right section; the good break rewards the player with an ideal angle, especially to the back left pin that gives Tommy fits.
On #4, Lester positioned a centerline fairway bunker that indicates the perfect line from the tee. Many players overlook it because they are staring down the pin (400+ yards away!). The line of charm is alive and well at Ballyhack.
The hole is tough as nails. It played as the hardest hole on the golf course in the State Open. Still, I'm convinced: Tell your group it's a par four and everyone will make a six; tell them it's a par five and they'll make fives at worst.
So much more to say about this hole, but I'll click Post and read for a bit.
WW
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It is true that the tee shot is not unduly demanding for a starting hole after playing it for the first time. The approach to the green, however, could be much friendlier. My recollection is that the second shot, though with a short iron or wedge, is considerably uphill. Coupled with the severe false front and that many if not most players haven't loosened up yet, the ball is likely to come up considerably short, often into a minefield of divots. The subsequent pitch is no picnic, and even if you get it on the green, the fun is just beginning. A starting hole such as this one on a busy course would set the tee sheet back. With a 9-iron approach from the fairway on the first day and a wedge on the second, both hit reasonably well for me, I am a combined 3-over on that hole.
I'm not sure I understand the comment that the approach could be friendlier. It's a short shot from a very wide fairway. You said that you struck a 9 iron and wedge reasonably well but were 3 over on the hole. Perhaps you should have struck a 9 iron or 8 iron reasonably well (which isn't an onerous demand, even for the first shot of the day). I don't see how asking a player to adjust for a considerable incline is a design flaw in any way. To the contrary, I find these things interesting and an asset for the hole.
The criticism of the minefield of divots was a fair one, as the balls tended to collect to the area front left, and if the pin was left, you had to get the 3rd shot up and over the bunker (an unfair ask from a divot). I would need to be overly aggressive simply to dig the ball out and would often run just over the green, leaving a very difficult downhill chip. However, as Tommy & I mentioned, that has been addressed and the slight cushion of rough now allows you get under the ball and have a more reasonable recovery attempt (even bringing in the possibility of playing a shot off the high back bank of the green).
I just find some of the criticisms of the 1st hole to be a bit misguided.
- The drive gets in people's heads because of the visual, but it's really not all that long of a shot. I've overcooked a draw on that one to discover there's a lot of room left on that fairway. If you think a forced driver carry to start the day is a bit much, it can still be easily cleared with a 3 wood or hybrid (assuming you're not biting off too much tee) and still leave a reasonably short approach.
- I think the approach gets criticized simply because so many people can't believe they took a double from the middle of the fairway with a wedge or 9 iron in their hands.
Like I said, I think the former divot minefield was a valid criticism, but that doesn't mean the false front is a bad feature.
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Regarding the tee shot on #2: I agree with Jim S's comments. Going left of the left bunker will leave you a longer approach, but it is from a flattish lie and leaves you with a clear view of the green. Going right of it [over the center bunker] and hitting a perfect shot may leave you closer, but the margin for error is slim, because it brings into play the left and center bunkers and also the bowl past and right of the center bunker, from where the second shot is completely blind.
It's a testament to Lester's strategic design that (by my count) two of you guys wrote that you prefer shots from the right side, even though I wouldn't intentionally hit it there myself.
Actually, in my experience, playing to the left doesn't necessarily leave a longer approach, simply because the ball will run out further from landing on a flat lie rather than hitting into the severe slopes to the right. From the same tees at the last George Cup, I hit a slight pull which ran out and left me 210 in from the "upper left" fairway, whereas a better struck drive to the right was still 220 out (but I'd still rather have the longer approach because I prefer hitting shots on angles (and can allow for some ball shaping) than trying to hit a straight ball.
But, as you said, the beauty is that you have options to play to your own personal preference, or adjust your lines based on wind conditions, tee positioning, pin placement, etc. It 's simply one of the best par 5s I've played.
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Kevin, I agree with your take on the first hole. I won't argue that it isn't a difficult hole. It is. But compared with the rest of Ballyhack, it's really among the more manageable holes on the course. You could make a reasonably solid case that 1-2 is the easiest two hole stretch on the course. You'd probably be wrong - I'd say 6-7 and 10-11 are easier - but you wouldn't be crazy.
Moving on to the fourth, there's something about the landing zone that feels a bit awkward and forced to me. It's a big hole in a huge setting, and yet it feels like it has one of the narrower landing zones on the course. On a course as big and bold as Ballyhack, it almost feels like a "ran out of room" hole, at least for the first 250 yards. Oddly, I think I might like it better if the fairway were narrowed and the strip down the right eliminated and maintained as rough. It just feels like it's really easy for a marginal shot to end up lost in the ravine separating 4 from 3.
However, the approach into the green is pure brilliance. Even a short iron will bounce in and roll out if landed short, and my 9 iron approach careened through the green when I played it back in the spring. I haven't looked all that closely at the contours of the land on the hole after crossing the ravine; the green area doesn't appear, from the landing zone, to slope away from the approach shot. Visually, it looks like the green sits on a small knob above the areas of fairway fronting and trailing the putting surface. The shot, however, plays almost like the fronting fairway is on a small downslope. It makes for a deceptively difficult approach for the first timer or aerial golfer, but probably makes the approach easier for a shorter hitter with some experience around the course, as it lets him feed his ball out onto the green a little more easily.
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#3 251, 211, 174, 143, 111
The third hole has one of the wilder greens on the course and has innumerable pin placements that range from relatively benign to fiendish. Slope and undulation are difficult to see on pictures but this green has as much movement as any on the course.
View from up near the second green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040562_zps30bc5d31.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040562_zps30bc5d31.jpg.html)
Seeing the mower obscured in the left bowl gives a decent idea of the amount of slope on this hole. What's interesting on this hole is that it works as a short hole as well as a longer one.
From the 111 and 143 yard distances, the severe segmentation of the green from easy (front left bowl), moderate (right half), to difficult (back left) makes for three distinct smaller targets. But from the longer 211/254 yard tees, the immense size of the overall target makes it fair.
What I really enjoy is the ability to play multiple recovery shots towards the bowl area. In the 2013 George Cup, Chris Denigris & I were both in the bunker short of the bowl. I played out left, he played out right, and we both ended up ~2 feet from the hole. Likewise, if you end up on the front of the green (or just short). you could pitch into the bowl, or sling a putter into the high side of the bowl and have it wrap around. If you end up on the back left when the pin is in the bowl, you generally can't stop the ball short if you aim directly at the hole, but you can elect several indirect routes to get close.
EDIT: Here's the aerial after the fact. You can see the three different general pin positions which vary in difficulty.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2vwustl.jpg)
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#5 par four 442,378,347,315
I love the fifth hole. It has everything: various options off the tee, a tee shot that requires the correct distance, a fun but demanding second shot, and large but sloping green.
The fairway is a continuation of the second fairway. The is blind, but so wide that missing it is almost impossible. Most players like one side of the fairway more than the other. One of the people I play with insists that the hole should be played from the right side. I Like it from the left side. I tend to get a flatter lie and like the angle into the green better.
View from a forward tee.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020234_zps21538a9c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020234_zps21538a9c.jpg.html)
Close up from the same location
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040576_zpsa037a83c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040576_zpsa037a83c.jpg.html)
View from the top of the hill. It just shows what lies ahead. The bunkers in the tee shot landing area have been resodded. Previously it was possible to lose a shot in the tall fescue that surrounded the bunkers. When the bunker surrounds were cleared hundreds of balls were found.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040577_zps7f7ac146.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040577_zps7f7ac146.jpg.html)
The side view from the second fairway illustrates the uphill nature of the second shot.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020224_zps37cfcc0c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020224_zps37cfcc0c.jpg.html)
Second shot from the right side of the fairway. Guys who get a lot of height on the ball need to take one or two more clubs. Guys like me who can no longer hit it high need to take more.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020087_zpsff3fcba8.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020087_zpsff3fcba8.jpg.html)
Second shot from the middle of the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040579_zps5ecc5740.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040579_zps5ecc5740.jpg.html)
Close up. Any shot that does not make the green is repelled some twenty yards back down the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040578_zps557ab990.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040578_zps557ab990.jpg.html)
The green is two tiered with a fair amount of slope back to front and left side to right side. The green will hold even one of my lower trajectory shots.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040580_zpsb40e9097.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040580_zpsb40e9097.jpg.html)
Looking back.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040581_zps17db95a6.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040581_zps17db95a6.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020090_zps26e88e0d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020090_zps26e88e0d.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020088_zps04e7af35.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020088_zps04e7af35.jpg.html)
Number five is just a wonderful hole from any tee you play.
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Tommy, having not played there, I wonder about that 5th tee shot. The right side line looks like the harder shot visually...but the view from the second shot looks much more challenging. I'm curious why your friend would prefer that line, it just looks like it invites more trouble no?
MM
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Tommy, having not played there, I wonder about that 5th tee shot. The right side line looks like the harder shot visually...but the view from the second shot looks much more challenging. I'm curious why your friend would prefer that line, it just looks like it invites more trouble no?
MM
Mark, the shot from the right is more difficult for me as well. He hits the ball high and finds that the slope on the green works best for his little fade.
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So far some fair and intriguing discussion about the course. It does stand in my mind that the more you play the course, the more fun it becomes because it reveals a bunch of shot options and, while charming, makes you concentrate on hitting each shot.
Some observations. 1. The inclusion of the maintained rough (that's what we call the lush grass that isn't fairway) short of the green on number 1 was an observational change but there mostly for maintenance and pace of play. The collection area was loaded with divots and it was obvious that the pace of play was disproportionate to the hole. 2. As we evolve, more and more bent grass will be incorporated around the approaches and greens to make more interesting shot and recoveries more flexible. 3. THE ONLY REASON FOR 90% OF THE MAINTAINED ROUGH (FECUE ANDS BLUEGRASS BLEND) WAS TO MEET THE DEMANDS OF THE LOCAL EROSION AND SEDIMENT CONTROL PERMITS WHEN WE BUILT THE COURSE. WE WERE REQUIRED TO STABILIZE THE SLOPES, GREENS, BUNKERS AND FAIRWAYS WITH A "CONTAINMENT RING" OF SODDED GRASS IN ORDER TO STOP SILTATION. IT WILL BE REPLACED OVER TIME, MOSTLY WITH BENT, WHICH WILL PROMOTE BALLS "ROLLING OUT" INTO HAZARDS. 4. This is the primary reason for the strip down the middle of number 4, it prevented wash-out of the fairway into the creek below. So, as any designer would do, we crafted it as a separator, established it as a guideline for the hole, and use it as an "arrester" of hot drives to allow a chance to stay on the hole. Form follows function gentlemen. 4B. Number 4 is the hardest hole on the course for me if I am on the wrong tee. 5. Number 3 green is difficult, but not more difficult than it needs to be. 6. I like many of Wades comments, especially about telling your group to play number 4 as a par 5. I like Tommy taking his guest to different sets of tee during their 72 hole stay, why wouldn't we all do that? 7. Number 2 is one of my favorite holes ever. It was there the day I first rode the property and I new one day a green would sit right there. I moved NO dirt to build it.
More later gentlemen. Good start Tommy , Wade and all.
Lester
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Tommy, having not played there, I wonder about that 5th tee shot. The right side line looks like the harder shot visually...but the view from the second shot looks much more challenging. I'm curious why your friend would prefer that line, it just looks like it invites more trouble no?
MM
Mark, the shot from the right is more difficult for me as well. He hits the ball high and finds that the slope on the green works best for his little fade.
Kind of sums up all that is good in a design of a hole. Too many courses just say hit the fairway/green or you lose!!
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Moving on to the fourth, there's something about the landing zone that feels a bit awkward and forced to me. It's a big hole in a huge setting, and yet it feels like it has one of the narrower landing zones on the course. On a course as big and bold as Ballyhack, it almost feels like a "ran out of room" hole, at least for the first 250 yards. Oddly, I think I might like it better if the fairway were narrowed and the strip down the right eliminated and maintained as rough. It just feels like it's really easy for a marginal shot to end up lost in the ravine separating 4 from 3.
You're not crazy, because you do actually run out of room, depending on the line you take. This is more of a diagonal landing area than it appears from the tee.
Here's an aerial of the hole:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/hv4bh4.jpg)
The black lines approximate where the various fairway tiers start. From the top tier (blue line), you're looking at a roughly 210 yard approach. From the 2nd tier (yellow), you're looking at 170-185, and if you get past the second drop, you'll usually get down to 135-150.
I drew the lines from the Ballyhack tees (447), but from the Ridge Tees (411) is usually where the "run out of room" comes into play. Normally, this is where the yellow line meets the rough (especially after you pass the first drop). You may
From the Ballyhack tees, you run out of room at 280 yards, but if you're playing the Ridge tees, it's only 245 yards, so you need to aim more right, which may bring the center rough more into play. But if you're up at those Ridge tees, it's only 220 yards to clear all the rough entirely. When I play the Ridge tees, my main concern isn't the center rough, it's the left rough.
This hole exemplifies the various options and different strategies when you switch tees at Ballyhack. The angle of attack and difficulties encountered are completely different simply by moving back one deck. From the 441 tees, I'm aiming along the yellow line knowing that I'm less likely to go through the fairway and trying to get to the end of the upper fairway (perhaps rolling to the second tier). From the Ridge Tees, I'm thinking 2nd / 3rd tier and aiming much further right.
You said that the landing area feels tight, but that's really just a mental block, because of the raised knob of rough in the center and the fact that you can't see the left fairway carved out along the upper tier. Also, as you alluded, it feels tight simply relative to the grand scale of the overall hole.
Where the Blue Line runs out is roughly 45 yards wide. Even at the narrowest point (the first black line), it is still 35 yards wide. Once you reach the 2nd tier (yellow line), it's 50-60 yards wide.
I tend to ignore the right strip of fairway, but have been pleasantly surprised to find a poor tee shot with a second chance from there (albeit a very long second shot). If you factor in that strip, the overall corridor is roughly 75 yards wide.
I agree with Wade about the center rough. Initially, you may think of it as a centerline hazard because Lester put in a "redemption strip" of fairway along the right, but it's definitely not a split-fairway hole. The center rough makes you think about the landing areas to the left which may not be obvious (especially from the back two sets of tees). But, as I noted above, the rough can also fool you into going too far left if you're playing the middle tees or less, as you want to take a more aggressive line given the diagonal nature of the left rough once you get over the initial tier.
As Wade also noted, the rough serves more as a redemption for a slicing tee shot. If that were closely mown, marginal tee shots might just trickle over the edge and run into the ravine. Unfortunately, on occasion, the rough is a little more wet or heavy, and balls will stop part way down the hill (like it appears happened to Tommy's friend in his photo), leaving no option but a punch to the lower bowl from an awkward lie, but it's still better than the ravine.
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However, the approach into the green is pure brilliance. Even a short iron will bounce in and roll out if landed short, and my 9 iron approach careened through the green when I played it back in the spring. I haven't looked all that closely at the contours of the land on the hole after crossing the ravine; the green area doesn't appear, from the landing zone, to slope away from the approach shot. Visually, it looks like the green sits on a small knob above the areas of fairway fronting and trailing the putting surface. The shot, however, plays almost like the fronting fairway is on a small downslope. It makes for a deceptively difficult approach for the first timer or aerial golfer, but probably makes the approach easier for a shorter hitter with some experience around the course, as it lets him feed his ball out onto the green a little more easily.
Couldn't agree more - I love this second shot, and think it works wonderfully from the slight downhill lies you may have from the 2nd tier or the longer lengths from the first tier. This landing area accommodates the lower trajectory shot that may be required from either scenario. But as you also noted, the segmentation of the green and deceptive sloping also provides interest when you may use an aerial attack from the lower fairway.
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5th hole comment:
against the wind from the back tee (which I mistakenly played during the PACK Competition, this year), the hole is a par 5.
The visuals on this hole are as all holes at Ballyhack are spectacular.
Kevin, et al,
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I can see the strategy for the scratch golfer on this and other holes ......
For me, the approach shot is another severly uphill shot, that is basically beyond my skill and/or pyschological comfort level. 1 shot out of 5 or 6, I can get lucky and wind up on the correct level of the green. An over the green approach risks a 40 yard down the hill next shot (and that is not hitting a bad chip shot). In the George Cup this year, I wonder how many 4 putts were made here.
This year's Sunday event had a back right pin and I made a miraculous 5.
I hope some higher handicapper's start to chime in.
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5th hole comment:
against the wind from the back tee (which I mistakenly played during the PACK Competition, this year), the hole is a par 5.
The visuals on this hole are as all holes at Ballyhack are spectacular.
I also played this hole from the back tee in the pack. I make a lot of bogies here so I thought I'd play it as a par five. Hit my third shot to about five feet and made the putt. Will wonders never cease.
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Tommy, I agree with your comments. How can one get a double on this hole? Very easy .... and not hit really bad shots.
I find the tee shot quite befuddling as, for me, a well struck drive may bound around all over the place (see the amount of terrain movement in the middle of the different slivers of fairways) and I don't have a shot.
If very lucky, and I have a straightforward approach shot, I find that the landing area just to hit the green, never mind where the pin is, very small. Being very short or very long is very easy and a problematic up and down because there is an up and over domed 40 or 50 foot shot at a very high green speed.
Carl,
Going back to your "big picture" themes, you mentioned the interface of visuals with the shot played, and the tee shot on #4 definitely fits into that. It can be hard to commit to your swing and line on #4, partly because the landing area is obscured, but also because the best line changes quite a bit depending on tee position (or even just varying wind conditions from the same tee). To me, the psychological hazard of uncertainty is one of the more fun elements for me.
As for tee shots bounding all over the place and the terrain movement, that stuff just adds to the fun for me, but I realize not everyone enjoys awkward lies as much as I do.
However, if you want to think about an overall theme, you comment about the befuddling nature of the tee shot on #4 leads me to one of my favorite features about Ballyhack, and that's the never ending variety of challenges presented.
If many shots were obscured and visually confusing, that could get a bit old. But just think about what the tour has shown so far.
#1 - All there in front of you. Seems frightening but really not a long carry at all. The uphill approach is partially blind (i.e. seeing the putting surface), but not a complete mystery.
#2 - The definition of all right there, including the various lines you can pick based on the pin position. If you pick the right side, you're partially blind, but you saw the entire hole from the tee)
#3 - You can see it all
#4 - Tee shot partially obscured and uncertain, but really fairly wide when you look at the aerial. You just need to remember it's a diagonal landing area even though it doesn't appear that way. But the approach options are there to assess from the elevated fairway.
There is a wonderful mixture of "all right there" shots as well as the odd shots that can be difficult to visualize (#8 Drive, layup on #9, approach on #11, drive on #12, approach on #14, short porch drive on #15). I think the ones that "get in your head" really don't require an overly demanding shot, but are difficult to commit to.
But, agreeing to disagree is always a reasonable option.
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Here are the aerials for the front and back nine that may help people visualize some of the angles. I'm not as adept using the photo tools as others (I'm an Excel guy), so forgive my poorly drawn hole numbers. I'll try to crop a few of the individual holes that may help as well.
(EDIT - Figured out how to add numbers in Paint, so this should be a little better)
Front Nine:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/22zst4.jpg)
Back Nine:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/29y3582.jpg)
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Kevin has really made some correct comments on number 4. It certainly isn't a "ran out of room" hole. I had a similar hole in another routing which is based entirely on making the player commit to an aggressive line with more yield or restrained line with less peril. If you insist on hitting driver on number four you would be advised to take it down the middle or you may end in rough. If you hit driver down the left to avoid the hazard, you may run out of fairway. The fairway is 60 plus yards wide in the short landing area and 40 plus in the long. Hardly what I would call out-of-room.
Lester
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Carl,
......
#1 - All there in front of you. Seems frightening but really not a long carry at all. The uphill approach is partially blind (i.e. seeing the putting surface), but not a complete mystery.
#2 - The definition of all right there, including the various lines you can pick based on the pin position. If you pick the right side, you're partially blind, but you saw the entire hole from the tee)
#3 - You can see it all
#4 - Tee shot partially obscured and uncertain, but really fairly wide when you look at the aerial. You just need to remember it's a diagonal landing area even though it doesn't appear that way. But the approach options are there to assess from the elevated fairway.
....
But, agreeing to disagree is always a reasonable option.
[/quote]
Kevin et al,
I think holes 2 & 3, from a playability perspective for a wide range of golfers, are terrific.
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Here's a link to the Ballyhack website. If you click on "Tour," this will give you 360 degree visuals from the tees, landing areas, and greens (along with some pro tips). The view from the landing area on 4 really lets you see the 3 different fairway tiers.
http://www.ballyhackgolfclub.com/ (http://www.ballyhackgolfclub.com/)
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Catching up-
3. My favorite 3 on the course- as long as I'm not playing any further back than 180. Nickname on this one could be "Other". The kind of green that you could spend an hour and hit a hundred putts and not get bored.
4. As everyone mentioned- tough as nails. Kevin's diagrams notwithstanding- I still think if you consider just the upper fairway as the legit playing corridor it's too narrow for this beastly a hole. You have to carry the center rough before it gets wide. Shame the lower fairway couldn't have been 10 yards wider where you could aim there and have a better angle into the green. Risking the chasm would be a cool risk/reward option. Also think the area short of the green repels balls more down the hill than onto the green (especially coming in from the left side of the fairway) leaving a lot of pitches. Safe but not as nifty as if playing there to bounce on. Most times I've played it has to be a hot low runner to defeat the slope.
5. Another easy relaxing driving hole with a demanding approach. A friendly version of number 1- which I would like more as the beginning hole. So wide off the tee but the blindness adds intrigue. I like to unintentionally pull hook a drive there, thinking it's dead, only to find it in pretty good shape at the far left side of the fairway. From the normal tees I need to hit driver to get to the bottom of the hill but that usually brings one of the bunkers into play if struck a little too well. Definitely with Tommy- rather be left than right for the 2nd. Just happy to be on the correct level for my first putt. Another wild green, especially with the pin topside near one of the fall lines.
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Here's the 5th hole aerial:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/znt2pw.jpg)
If I recall Lester's past discussions about the hole, the decision from the tee isn't meant to be limited to a left / right approach preference.
From the Ridge & shorter tees, most balls can get down to the flatter lies regardless of the fairway side chosen. But if you're shorter hitter, I think the hole "bottoms out" a little sooner on the left side.
However, from the Ballyhack (378) and Big Lick Tees (442), the distance of your tee shot has a greater impact on the flatness of your lie. Would you rather be 150 yards from a slight downhill lie or lay back to 175-180 and have a flatter lie? In that regard, the tee shot decision is a little more multi-dimensional.
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Kevin, thanks for the aerial pictures. It really helps get a sense of the routing. It is worthy of a former George Cup holder!!
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Number 3 green is difficult, but not more difficult than it needs to be.
Lester
Lester,
I was hoping you could expand your comments of #3 green.
After playing the hole, I was surprised by the separation of the putting surface and the bunkers. It's easy to assume from the tee the green would present a bank along the right edge to feed a "running" shot toward the back left hole locations. If a tee ball finds the area between the bunkers and putting surface it would be most difficult getting the ball up and down.
Thanks.
Ken
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#6 par four 354,334,298,272,242
Every course needs a great short par four. Ballyhack has two, six and eight. Six is just a charmer. I have played it from every tee, including the forward one, where it plays as a long par three. In fact, I have driven the green from the three forward tees, and I can barely hit it out of my shadow anymore. The carry from tee to green is downhill and is shorter than the listed distances. The contouring of the fairway is brilliant and hit in the correct place the ball will bound toward the green.
This is the view from each of the three back tees.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020092_zps0f83c6f4.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020092_zps0f83c6f4.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020238_zpsd5ac867d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020238_zpsd5ac867d.jpg.html)
The safe play is to hit the tee shot just left of the right bunker. The contours of the ground will feed the ball closer to the green and you will be left with a shot inside 100 yards.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040583_zpsc46c6c6d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040583_zpsc46c6c6d.jpg.html)
Looking back at the tee from the landing area.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040585_zps16f3b211.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040585_zps16f3b211.jpg.html)
About 80 yards from the green. The front right pin is the most difficult. Last week I drove the ball about ten yards from the green four times and made only one birdie. The green is devilishly sloped and undulates in a way that getting a ball close is a trick. For the most part the green is subtle and a birdie is a real option. I always think three when I tee it up on this hole.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040584_zps22948db8.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040584_zps22948db8.jpg.html)
About forty yards away.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040586_zpse70fda41.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040586_zpse70fda41.jpg.html)
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#6 par four 354,334,298,272,242
The safe play is to hit the tee shot just left of the right bunker. The contours of the ground will feed the ball closer to the green and you will be left with a shot inside 100 yards.
You used a phrase I was unclear about. What is this "safe shot" phenomenon you speak of?
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I am enjoying the tour but I am not sure I can add much to the discussion. My partner in the Buda (Van) pretty strongly suggested where I should aim for most of the shots and he knew what he was talking about. He had me play much more conservative shots than I otherwise would have chosen.
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I have to run out to get my son, so I'll add comments later.
In the meantime, here's the 6th Hole Aerial. Along the Yellow Line (from the 334 Yard Ballyhack tees), you're looking at roughly 195 to reach the fairway and 250 before you run out of room.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2eg9r1z.jpg)
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I am enjoying the tour but I am not sure I can add much to the discussion. My partner in the Buda (Van) pretty strongly suggested where I should aim for most of the shots and he knew what he was talking about. He had me play much more conservative shots than I otherwise would have chosen.
Anything you add is greatly appreciated, even if it's to talk about what bad decisions you may have been tempted to try without the voice of reason. It may tie into Carl's theme about the visual impact on shot selection and seems especially appropriate on this hole. There's a reason this hole's name is "Gamble."
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#6 par four 354,334,298,272,242
The safe play is to hit the tee shot just left of the right bunker. The contours of the ground will feed the ball closer to the green and you will be left with a shot inside 100 yards.
You used a phrase I was unclear about. What is this "safe shot" phenomenon you speak of?
Ah, safe is a relative term. I maybe should have said, "The wise play," something very few who are not George Cup winners understand.
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Lester, thanks for the explanation. You alluded to adding more bent in the future and I am curious as to where and when you are able to do this. Did you have this in the original plans or is it mostly adjusted to playability?
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I'm a little late to the party, but I'll feel free to chime in anyway. ;D
General comment: There is plenty of room everywhere. Visually it may not appear so, but if you play off the proper tees, you'll generally have no problem getting around the course if you execute solid, thoughtful shots.
#1 Good starting hole. The carry is more than manageable from the proper tees. My topspin hooks even made it over. If you miss right, you need to miss right BIG. I hit it onto the 3rd tee of #6 in the 2012 George Cup in the Pack. After standing at the sprinkler control to estimate yardage and determine direction. I played almost to the greenside bunker and got it up and down. I was not hitting the topspin hooks back then.
#2 This in my mind might just be the best hole on the course. Pick your line from the tee and have at it. If you hit it solid, you can then think of your options. Try and get it there, or lay up? If you do lay up, the green, especially the left side, tends to slope away from the fairway, so you have to execute your pitch shot precisely or it will get away from you quickly. As Wade noted, with the prevailing wind direction downwind, this matters on the pitch.
#3 Not much to add to Kevin's comments. Nothing to add now that I think further.
#4 I try to remember that I have more room than I see. The play for me is to hit a solid driver at the right edge of the separation strip. I generally don't hit it far enough to run out of fairway. I've seen folks play a little safer to the left, but this can be problematic in trying to approach the green near the pin. The beauty of the hole is that you can play right of the green, and will have a third shot with a chance to make 4. You'll again have to execute your shot, and you can go as high or low as you want to, but you'll have a shot.
#5 One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that the drives on 4 and 5 have similar themes. The golfer is presented with a visual that intimates 'hazard' in the brain. The first instinct is to stay away, and left is suggested by the lay of the land. Again, if you go too far left, or turn it over, you'll stand a heightened chance of a lie off the fairway, but without a bail out area as the previous hole. If you miss short, you have a tight lie, and can hit it back in your divot if you don't execute the shot. If you go long, the tiers make a 2 putt problematic, especially if you are in the back with a front pin.
#6. Not much to add here, except to echo Ran's comment in his write-up about the similarities between this one and #5 at Portrush - White Rocks. I had played Portrush before my 2012 trip, and played it again in 2013. To me, the difference in the two is that Gamble is not as penal on distance required for the chosen line. As Tommy noted, you can play right, and the hole will advance your ball toward the green. The theme at White Rocks is pick your line, and execute the correct distance, or else.
I look forward to the remainder of the holes.
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I have no desire to take the hole on from any tees. I seem to mis-judge the tee shot, generally hitting too much club to far right and too long. In repeated plays and /or hitting several tee shots, I could probably figure it out.
To me the green runs away from front to back. My remembrance is that the ball will release a lot.
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The safe play is to hit the tee shot just left of the right bunker. The contours of the ground will feed the ball closer to the green and you will be left with a shot inside 100 yards.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040583_zpsc46c6c6d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040583_zpsc46c6c6d.jpg.html)
Tommy,
Were all those pictures taken last week? In some shots, the green was clearly visible, but in others, it was obscured much more. Not sure if that's a function of time and growth, or just the height of the teeing grounds. Here's a pic from my first visit in 2010.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Ballyhack-End%20of%20Day-7-18-2010-Album%201/IMG_4385.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/buffalogolfer/media/Ballyhack-End%20of%20Day-7-18-2010-Album%201/IMG_4385.jpg.html)
I'd love to see the view of the green less obstructed, simply for the temptation aspect, but don't know if environmental restrictions are a factor.
Going back to Carl's theme of visual influence, I was surprised by looking at the aerial photo. I always felt that the landing area past the left corner of rough was more perpendicular to the line of play. Looking at it now, I see how much that landing area really runs away from the tee.
I used to try and play this hole safe and thought that you may drive through the fairway (again, thinking the landing area was perpendicular and very narrow). Once I saw Andy Hughes hit a shot I swore was in trouble get kicked towards the green, my entire strategy changed.
Now, I'm aiming for the cart path or right greenside bunker with a hopeful draw. Even if I leave it out to the right a little, the far side of the fairway does serve as a little bit of a backstop. I've been able to drive this one with a Driver, a 3 Wood and a Hickory over the years, so any thought of the safe route are forever gone from my mind.
However, one feature that I recall quite clearly from my safe-play days is the slope of the fairway between 100 and 150 yards. Typically, the ball will be above your feet. With all the trouble on the left, the need to compensate for a pull lie makes a fairly straightforward shot that much more interesting.
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Kevin, the first and third pictures are from this year. The second on is from last fall. I too have given up the safe route and now aim at the cart path and turn it over a bit. I have even hit it to the right of the cart path on the hill and had it bounce toward the green. I love this hole and like so many of the holes gives the player a number of ways to play the hole.
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The 6th and the 3rd holes, in my opinion, suffer from the back tee boxes. With both holes, I'd like to see each tee box moved up and the back tee boxes scrapped.
The greatness of the 3rd green is lost from ~250 yards and the risk/reward aspect of the 6th is gone from ~350 yards. I think that would increase the fun with everyone getting to move up a box on these holes.
I also agree with Kevin that, if possible, the vegetation on the 6th should be lowered to reveal more of the green.
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The sixth is a hole that I probably need to play a few more times to get a better idea of all the playing options. I didn't hit a great tee shot and took a pretty conservative line when I played it back in the spring. I wound up in the rough with a simple enough wedge shot to the green that made the hole seem pretty uneventful.
Nevertheless, it's a welcome breather to have a downhill tee shot that's all in front of you on an obvious birdie hole after several holes that are pretty tough pars. In a sense, 6 and 7 might be the two most straightforward holes on the course. There's not much hidden trouble and while decisions still exist, the information needed to make them is readily available as well.
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4. As everyone mentioned- tough as nails. Kevin's diagrams notwithstanding- I still think if you consider just the upper fairway as the legit playing corridor it's too narrow for this beastly a hole. You have to carry the center rough before it gets wide. Shame the lower fairway couldn't have been 10 yards wider where you could aim there and have a better angle into the green. Risking the chasm would be a cool risk/reward option. Also think the area short of the green repels balls more down the hill than onto the green (especially coming in from the left side of the fairway) leaving a lot of pitches. Safe but not as nifty as if playing there to bounce on. Most times I've played it has to be a hot low runner to defeat the slope.
"Kevin's Diagrams?" - you mean the photo image of the actual width? How manipulative of me. :)
I suppose this comes back to the "What is a Wide Fairway" debate. Looking at the other threads, Tom Doak thought that anything under 35 is narrow, 45 and up is wide. So just considering the upper fairway, you still have a "wide" fairway, but you only see 25 yards of it. In this case, I think it plays even a little wider than the actual distance, because the left side of the fairway is sloped and will send pulled tee shots back to the fairway. And on the right, there's still 30 or so yards before you reach the ravine (plus the "arrester" rough). If you're in the left rough anywhere past the first tier drop, it's not that the fairway wasn't wide enough - it's simply that you drove through the fairway (more an issue from the Ridge tees than the Ballyhack tees).
Even our esteemed George Cup Champion Tommy Williamsen is quoted as saying "I hit the tee ball relatively straight and like fairways that require accuracy. Anything over 40 yards is wide." So, this hole must be all mental for Tommy, since he's given a wide fairway (45+) and a downhill approach that favors his Sweet Tea draw. Tommy should own this hole (and often does, because I recall a 5 foot birdie attempt the last time I played it with him). (No fee for that bit of mental coaching, Tommy. That's a George Cup Champion to Champion courtesy). ;)
It's interesting that you mention playing down the right split fairway as giving a better angle. It must just be me, because I much prefer approaching this hole from the left side vs. being close to the ravine. On the approach, the "death miss" for me is in the left greenside sand, as there is just so much potential for awkward stances and horrendous lies (I could discuss this more, but I don't want to steal Jim Sherma's thunder about some of the bunker features). As a result, I would rather approach from the left side feeling like I'm shooting away from that trouble than coming in from the right. To me, it's like having OB left on a hole - I'll tee up on the left side of the box every time. Plus, from the left side, the slope of the green acts as a backstop. From the right, I think of it as something that will kick me to the left. Also, if I recall correctly, the lies on the right side tend to be above my feet, which may promote a pull. Funny how different people are in approach angle preference.
But even if the right sliver of lower fairway was much wider to make this a true split-fairway hole, I still don't think it would be a preferable route. Even assuming you prefer that angle, I think you would still want to hit your approach from an elevated fairway vs a lower one (per Google Earth, the upper fairway is 18-20 feet higher). Plus, just missing the right fairway would be in a ravine, while just missing left on the upper fairway has a built-in safety slope pushing you back towards the fairway.
As for the area short of the green, you are correct that it will repel certain ball flights rather than bound them onto the green. But I actually think that's better. It makes that slope play as a "shot option" rather than a "forgiveness feature." For example, at one of my local courses, the green fronts are open. But if I attempt an aerial approach and catch it heavy, I may still bounce onto the green ("forgiveness"). But in Ballyhack's case, you still need to have some "intent" to hit a runner in order to benefit from the slope. At the last George Cup, I had a great drive and 135 in. I came under my 9 iron a little, landed about 10 feet short and the ball hit weakly, ultimately falling back down the slope a good 15 yards (which is what I deserved). But if I'd tried flighting a 7 iron, and hit the same spot, it would have bounced forward onto the green.
The amount of discussion and potential controversy around number 4 tells me it's one of the best holes there. It strikes me as a hole where some may say "there's too much going on." I've heard that used a criticism of holes before, and generally never understood why that may be considered a bad thing. Why wouldn't we want multiple things to consider on a hole? On this one, you have a diagonal landing area, the need to overcome visual confusion, the need to consider the roll-out of your tee shot if you can crest the hill, three different "target tiers", plus aerial and ground approach options. This hole has grown on me quite a bit over the last several visits.
Finally, it passes one of my favorite indicators of greatness. Have you seen a hole similar to it anywhere else?
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Now it is time to catch up.
#3: Everything that everyone said is right on. All of the pin placements are cool in and of themselves. As you move back in terms of yardage the hole becomes too much for most players. I'm a reasonable ball striker and from the back tee or two I know that I am hitting and hoping as far as trying to hit a specific part of the green. Inside of 170 I feel like I have the shot, just not past that, there are many golfers that are much better than me however and that is why the different tee boxes are there.
#4: this hole really weirded me out the first time I played it. I just thought that it was contrived and silly. That first round I juiced one down the middle and just caught the left edge of the rough in the middle of the fairway. Felt like I hit a great hybrid that had no chance of stopping on the green and proceeded to take four from long left. After a bunch of plays this year I really have come to like the hole. I am generally long enough to get to the bottom if I get the ball to land in the fairway. My strategy comes down to this: If you go down the left side you need to hit a little cut off the edge of the fairway, if you go down the right side you need to hit a little draw. Both shots work and I ended up pretty much in the same bowl in the right center of the fairway. Generally I think the cut is a less demanding shot with less horror show outcomes. The hole is playable from the 220 up top as long as you don't challenge the back left too much.
#5: WTF?!?!? This is a serious golf hole that really challenges all parts of your game. The drive is straightforward as long as you don't hit it long enough to mess with the second set of fairway bunkers. Everything is in the second shot. I agree that the right side of the fairway is the place to be. The reason is that it more readily sets up for a cut shot into the green that will get up higher and land softer once you're up there. The green might be a little severe given the shot you have to hit to get there. Crazy-cool hole and one that will not be forgotten by anyone that plays it.
#6: Pretty easy par if you have decent distance control and don't get greedy. The easiest birdie is probably if you can drive it into the left greenside bunker. I find it a fairly awkward pitch from the fairway and try to hit it at the right side bunker 30-50 yards short of the green so that I can bump a runner up towards the pin. I am a lousy wedge player though and a better wedge player should be thinking birdie from here at a higher conversion rate than I do. This and 9 are my least favorite holes on the front. As far as 6 goes I just think that the risks are too great to get too aggressive. Anything short or long of the fairway is a potential lost ball and I have no problem guaranteeing 4 with a chance at 3. I guess it comes down to the maintenance just not allowing a risk-reward ratio that really temps me out of my default comfort zone.
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#7 par three—191,188,165,154,123
Number seven is a straightforward par three that asks for a high shot. The green fits naturally into the lay of the land. It is one of those sites that seems to have begged for a green. I have hit both a high fade and a high draw. I like the fade better. I will aim left of the pin and the slope of the green, which is front left to back right, will feed the ball to the hole. For most pins, it is essential to fly the ball to the green. Anything short will feed down to the lower right side of the fringe leaving a delicate little pitch from well below the green. I almost always play the hole from the back tee. The tee is perched on a hill and gives a great look at the hole. I also like this pin placement the best. For some reason, I can get closer to the hole than any other location. The bunker appears to be closer to the green than it really is, so you really have to trust the yardage. If you land the ball just over the bunker and a little left of the pin the ball will trundle toward the hole, because the green is sloped front left to back right. This is the one pin placement you can land short of the green a bit.
From the back tee.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040588_zpsef9b9e7a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040588_zpsef9b9e7a.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040589_zps0d9cdeca.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040589_zps0d9cdeca.jpg.html)
Everything slopes left to right.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040588_2_zpseed4b956.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040588_2_zpseed4b956.jpg.html)
There is a little bowl short and right of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040590_zps2ce528d6.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040590_zps2ce528d6.jpg.html)
The bunker is not a preferred place.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040591_zps9fd9849d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040591_zps9fd9849d.jpg.html)
Looking back.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020239_zps1880a11a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020239_zps1880a11a.jpg.html)
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A quick comment on #5: as with everywhere at Ballyhack, selecting the proper tee box is the key to playability. Playing from the Ridge and Ballyhack tees (i.e., not all the way back), the proper clubs for my approach shots would have been PW, 9I, 8I. (I had between 110 and 130 left to the center of the green, and given the severe uphill nature of the shots, I underclubbed twice.) It's entirely a more manageable shot from those distances, on the flats, than the choices Kevin gave: "Would you rather be 150 yards from a slight downhill lie or lay back to 175-180 and have a flatter lie?"
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I played Ballyhack yesterday and thought it was spectacular. Perfect fall morning with amazing color only added to the beauty of the course, which was literally in perfect shape. Loved it.
Of course, I took a boatload of photos.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3951/15555668870_61defb0180_c.jpg)
Great tour guys.
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I played Ballyhack yesterday and thought it was spectacular. Perfect fall morning with amazing color only added to the beauty of the course, which was literally in perfect shape. Loved it.
Of course, I took a boatload of photos.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3951/15555668870_61defb0180_c.jpg)
Great tour guys.
Wow! That's quite the shot - please add some more as we go along. But judging from the quality of that last one, you may be a pro photographer and saving them.
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Kevin:
That's kind of you to say, and I'm glad you liked the photo. I'm not a pro (total amateur in both photography and golf) and I would be happy to post more photos - I just didn't want to distract from the excellent tour Tommy and Co have going on.
I'll throw up some more photos later - for now, here's a one of Ballyhack's excellent maintenance staff:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7501/15555867518_06b9602542_c.jpg)
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Jon- that is one of the best pics of 10 I've seen. You don't see that angle from the extreme right side often and it really shows off the drama on the last 100 yards of the hole. Echoing Kevin- please post more!
Back a few holes- I love the feeling of leaving the 5th green (often after a 3 putt) and eagerly anticipating the drive on 6. It really epitomizes BH for me- high drama, extreme adventure, uncertainty and total fun. I like the BH teebox best, where I can hit a full driver and if hit on the right line- for me about 10 yards right of the cartpath- with a gentle draw will usually give me about a 40-50 yard little pitch. The green is a little beguiling- there's a subtle spine that runs front to back that seems to deflect pitches and putts from any of the pin spots in the back half of the green. There's a lot more room to miss right than it appears from the tee, as I've experienced a few times, and there's only 100-130 yards in from that bailout area. It's a good option for anyone who wants a shorter carry over the junk.
7 is probably the most ordinary hole at BH- pretty straightforward. I really like the longer teebox cut into the bank on the right side of the cartpath- calls for about a 195 yard shot but the angle into the green is better for combating the slope and avoiding the fronting bunker. One thing that's neat is the visual you get from the tee with the gorgeous 8th hole serving as the backdrop.
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to get back to the 7th .....
after the scintillating opening drama of the first 6, 7 is a welcome rest. It is a quiet design gently banking itself into the hillside.
It is a very fair and playable hole. My memory, is that the green is much deeper than the view from the tee indicates. and the green has a ridge - crown located approximately in the middle of the green perpendicular to line of play. From that ridge or crown, it slopes to the front or back to the rear. Missing right is a bad and severe miss as Tommy's pic of the bunker indicates, but there is a lot of room to hit the green with a run up over the front left bunker.
Not much discussion of the bunkers, yet. All are attractive, but must be avoided. They all have very abrupt slopes internally with steep banks. They are a strong argument for the 64 degree wedge.
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The 7th looks like a really neat benched green par three. Though it is very difficult to judge from photographs, I do wonder if the bunkers and particularly the front left add anything to the hole.
I am enjoying the tour very much. An interesting and well thought out golf course presented in a very clear and thought provoking way :)
Jon
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I find that there are two ways I play the course. Sometimes I will try to make a good score and only take a chance when I feel confident of success. When I do that I can generally put up a decent score, although 80 here is different than 80 other places. The other way is to play all out on every hole and not care about score. That is my preferred way to play the course. When you don't care about score so much Ballyhack is a ball. My wife loves the challenge of the course and plays it as if there were 18 separate games. She plots he way around and just loves it. If you try to put up your best score each and every time you play the course you miss some of the fun risk reward shots. Quite often I will play two or three balls from different tees. That makes for a really enjoyable round. The course is never crowded so I don't hold anyone up.
Most of the time I will walk the front nine and walk the back. If I play 36 I will walk the front both times. When I had a friend there last week he walked with me and said it was a beautiful hike in the mountains with the bonus of being able to hit a golf ball now and then.
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A quick comment on #5: as with everywhere at Ballyhack, selecting the proper tee box is the key to playability. Playing from the Ridge and Ballyhack tees (i.e., not all the way back), the proper clubs for my approach shots would have been PW, 9I, 8I. (I had between 110 and 130 left to the center of the green, and given the severe uphill nature of the shots, I underclubbed twice.) It's entirely a more manageable shot from those distances, on the flats, than the choices Kevin gave: "Would you rather be 150 yards from a slight downhill lie or lay back to 175-180 and have a flatter lie?"
JB -
Just to clarify, the longer yardage options I was talking about were when you play the back tees (or the Ballyhack tees into the wind). These were the choices Lester described to us during a guided tour at the inaugural event.
The first few years I played the George Cup, I really didn't appreciate the difference in lies because the wind was down and you could reach the flatter areas from either the Ridge or Ballyhack tees. The first time we played the Ballyhack tees with some wind opened my eyes to the many different considerations. Before, my only thought was "stay short of the bunkers", but there's so much more to consider.
Playing the Big Lick tees this year didn't open my eyes so much as the hole just simply kicked me in the teeth in that wind.
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Re: #6 Green - I think everyone has mentioned the difficulty of this green and I would have to concur. For some reason, it is very difficult to get close. For as many times as I've driven this green or been 10-20 yards short, I've only birdied it once in ~20 plays. In comparison, I've birdied the monstrous 4th twice.
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Now it is time to catch up.
#3: Inside of 170 I feel like I have the shot, just not past that, there are many golfers that are much better than me however and that is why the different tee boxes are there.
#5: WTF?!?!? This is a serious golf hole that really challenges all parts of your game. The drive is straightforward as long as you don't hit it long enough to mess with the second set of fairway bunkers. Everything is in the second shot. I agree that the right side of the fairway is the place to be. The reason is that it more readily sets up for a cut shot into the green that will get up higher and land softer once you're up there. The green might be a little severe given the shot you have to hit to get there.
#6: Anything short or long of the fairway is a potential lost ball and I have no problem guaranteeing 4 with a chance at 3. I guess it comes down to the maintenance just not allowing a risk-reward ratio that really temps me out of my default comfort zone.
#3 - Jim - You're being way too modest about your abilities beyond 170 yards. I saw enough shots from you to know this is playable for you from the 211 tees (as well as other players). The green is huge, so people can hit hybrid or 3 wood and have a reasonable chance of hitting the green. It may not be an easy 2 putt, but there's plenty of space to land. And if the pin's in the bowl, you can fire dead at the pin because landing in the bunker short is a relatively easy shot given the funneling nature.
As for the 250 tees - that's simply something you try once or twice to see what it's like to hit Driver or 3-wood on a Par 3 (or play it like a very short 4).
#5 - Between this hole and #1, it's interesting to hear how much an elevated approach gets into players' heads. Perhaps I'm just used to them from my home course, but we're still talking about shots in the 100-140 range (unless you're getting into the longer tees). While the severe ridge in the green may make for a slippery downhill putt, it also serves as a backstop on the approach. Even more, for all the times I've come up just short (my miss is a heavy iron coupled with ego-driven underclubbing), I've thrown 3rd shots against that backstop and had them come back to the hole.
When the pin is in the lower tier and you're above it, you can usually keep your first putt on the green. One of the things I like about Ballyhack is that there's often a creative way to get close when you're on the wrong tier, but it involves a counterintuitive line. Often this involves playing a parabolic shot rather than the direct line from a "traditional" read.
However, it's likely your severity comment may be referring to the back right pin position we had on Sunday, and I'd have to agree, that one was flirting with the line (and then some).
#6 - Your comment ties into my concern of what can happen when the rough gets into the lost-ball length - it masks some of the strategy and options that were built in. If the rough through the fairway and on the slopes were kept at 2-3 inches, you'd still have a hell of a penalty from the severe lies (ball well above your feet to a difficult green as it is), but at least you'd have the potential for a miracle recovery. On the inside of the dogleg, the goats have made quite a bit of progress in making short balls find-able. We found several drives in there last month, but none were able to hit the green from that lie or angle.
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#6 is the most difficult green on the course to read.
WW
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I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.
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The 7th looks like a really neat benched green par three. Though it is very difficult to judge from photographs, I do wonder if the bunkers and particularly the front left add anything to the hole.
I am enjoying the tour very much. An interesting and well thought out golf course presented in a very clear and thought provoking way :)
Jon
To me, the front left bunker mainly provides a visual barrier to left pin positions (from the lower left teeing grounds). Also, it may scare you away from the ideal line, which is always to the left, given the left-to-right slope of the green (and area left of the green). If the pin is left and you aim a little right of the pin to avoid the bunker, you may face a fairly long second putt.
Like Chris said, this hole often gets overlooked given the dramatic features of its surrounding holes, but it's a solid par three. As with so many other holes, there are multiple 2nd shot options if you miss the green short (from Tommy's 4th picture). Some use the slope of the green as a backstop and throw up a high pitch. Others use the slope short of the green to play a bump & run, while others (myself included) like to use putter off the normally firm grounds.
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7th Aerial:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2le2vzr.jpg)
From the left tees, you can see how the front left bunker is much more in play. I drew the lines to the left center, as a ball that lands in the middle of the green will usually fall well to the right.
If you appreciate the slope of the green, the right bunker shouldn't come into play, because even with a right pin, you should be aiming well left.
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I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.
Seven is indeed pretty straightforward hole. I always look forward to the tee shot. It is what happens to the ball after it lands on the green that I love. I don't hit it as high as I used to so I get some roll. I enjoy trying to figure how much it will roll out after it lands. You can have some pretty interesting putts on this green, because of the slope.
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Kevin,
thanks for the reply. I do still wonder if any of the bunkers are really necessary from a playing strategy though do get your point on the visual impact. This green has to be the coolest green so far from the point of view of asking the golfer to imagine a very straight forward question about allowing fro the slope in a similar way to Gibraltar (Moortown, Leeds) and the 11th at Alwoodley. I am afraid I am constantly asking if bunkers are really necessary whilst playing course as often GCAs use them as a visual prop.
Jon
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It is true that the tee shot is not unduly demanding for a starting hole after playing it for the first time. The approach to the green, however, could be much friendlier. My recollection is that the second shot, though with a short iron or wedge, is considerably uphill. Coupled with the severe false front and that many if not most players haven't loosened up yet, the ball is likely to come up considerably short, often into a minefield of divots. The subsequent pitch is no picnic, and even if you get it on the green, the fun is just beginning. A starting hole such as this one on a busy course would set the tee sheet back. With a 9-iron approach from the fairway on the first day and a wedge on the second, both hit reasonably well for me, I am a combined 3-over on that hole.
I'm not sure I understand the comment that the approach could be friendlier. It's a short shot from a very wide fairway. You said that you struck a 9 iron and wedge reasonably well but were 3 over on the hole. Perhaps you should have struck a 9 iron or 8 iron reasonably well (which isn't an onerous demand, even for the first shot of the day). I don't see how asking a player to adjust for a considerable incline is a design flaw in any way. To the contrary, I find these things interesting and an asset for the hole.
The criticism of the minefield of divots was a fair one, as the balls tended to collect to the area front left, and if the pin was left, you had to get the 3rd shot up and over the bunker (an unfair ask from a divot). I would need to be overly aggressive simply to dig the ball out and would often run just over the green, leaving a very difficult downhill chip. However, as Tommy & I mentioned, that has been addressed and the slight cushion of rough now allows you get under the ball and have a more reasonable recovery attempt (even bringing in the possibility of playing a shot off the high back bank of the green).
I just find some of the criticisms of the 1st hole to be a bit misguided.
- The drive gets in people's heads because of the visual, but it's really not all that long of a shot. I've overcooked a draw on that one to discover there's a lot of room left on that fairway. If you think a forced driver carry to start the day is a bit much, it can still be easily cleared with a 3 wood or hybrid (assuming you're not biting off too much tee) and still leave a reasonably short approach.
- I think the approach gets criticized simply because so many people can't believe they took a double from the middle of the fairway with a wedge or 9 iron in their hands.
Like I said, I think the former divot minefield was a valid criticism, but that doesn't mean the false front is a bad feature.
Sorry to be late on a reply. I happen to believe that the first hole is among the most important as it introduces the course to the golfer. By happenstance I recently found this piece by another GCAer who, unlike me, is paid to put his thinking on the ground.
http://adventuresingca.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-first-hole.html
How could the approach on the first hole be friendlier? Well, we agree that the drive requires neither extraordinary length or accuracy. Yet, it is the #5 handicap hole on the course. This must mean that the approach and/or the green complex are very difficult. IMO, they are, particularly for being right out of the box. BTW, I took the first 20 scorecards out of my 2014 box and the average hole handicap for the first hole was just under 10. While mine was hardly a scientific sampling, I suspect that if I increased the sample size to the last 100 different courses I played, Bh's #1 would place in the top 10-20 in terms of relative difficulty.
As to whether it is a "design flaw", I didn't allege that- perhaps Lester likes to get the golfer's blood flowing from the outset. I like uneven lies and elevation changes which Bh has in spades throughout the course. However, if it was just a matter of hitting one more club on the approach (or a solid drive on a better line), I would be playing at a much higher level and we wouldn't be having this discussion here. That Lester had to come back and ring the front of the green suggests that things didn't come out like he planned (which is often the rule in golf course design rather than the exception, and why Ross and Dye earned their reputations for tinkering with what became their best work).
Nice thread thus far. I tend to prefer courses that minimize forced carries, keep the native vegetation well away from the playing areas, and are walkable. That I came away after two rounds at Bh with very good impressions of the course speaks to its great beauty, challenge, and the nice people there. As I recall, I botched the 18th hole to allow a certain opponent from the North to prevail. I am keeping my ammunition dry until we get there.
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I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.
Seven is indeed pretty straightforward hole. I always look forward to the tee shot. It is what happens to the ball after it lands on the green that I love. I don't hit it as high as I used to so I get some roll. I enjoy trying to figure how much it will roll out after it lands. You can have some pretty interesting putts on this green, because of the slope.
In a course that eschews subtlety, seven is perhaps the most subtle of the holes on the course.
I should mention that I thought the par 3s were the weakest part of the course, not because they lacked interest, but because they lacked options. Ballyhack is a course that is all about options, and yet the par 3s is a straightforward redan-type hole, a shot that requires loft, a drop shot, and a shot over the canyon. Each hole provides a different challenge, so that's good, but you,d like at least two holes that have different ways to approach the shot.
- J
PS - please don't take this as outright hostility, as I loved the course. Every course has a weakest part, that doesn't mean that the part is weak relative to other courses.
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I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.
Seven is indeed pretty straightforward hole. I always look forward to the tee shot. It is what happens to the ball after it lands on the green that I love. I don't hit it as high as I used to so I get some roll. I enjoy trying to figure how much it will roll out after it lands. You can have some pretty interesting putts on this green, because of the slope.
In a course that eschews subtlety, seven is perhaps the most subtle of the holes on the course.
I should mention that I thought the par 3s were the weakest part of the course, not because they lacked interest, but because they lacked options. Ballyhack is a course that is all about options, and yet the par 3s is a straightforward redan-type hole, a shot that requires loft, a drop shot, and a shot over the canyon. Each hole provides a different challenge, so that's good, but you,d like at least two holes that have different ways to approach the shot.
- J
PS - please don't take this as outright hostility, as I loved the course. Every course has a weakest part, that doesn't mean that the part is weak relative to other courses.
I understand what you mean. I think where the options come in are on the various tee markers. On seven the tee up on the hill is a very different hole than the tees below. There are many different teeing options on number 13 from way left to straightaway. The same is true on 17. I do agree that the ground game is not an option on the par threes.
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#8 Par four 383, 350,319,294, 294
The key to 8 is the drive, and as usual Lester gives the player options off the tee. This is one hole where it becomes essential to play the correct tee, especially for short old men like me. I play it from the 319 tees because it is important to reach the flat part of the fairway. Anything that is short rolls down toward the right rough line where the second shot is obstructed by a tree. Longer players can hit it through the fairway, although there is much more room out there than it appears from the tee. The second shot is a short iron to a wide but relatively shallow green. This is another hole where I think birdie.
What is unclear from the tee is that there is an alternate fairway to the right of the creek and tree. Longer hitters can drive it pin high where there is only a short pitch left. I will even give it a go and all I have is a sand wedge in to the green.
The best line is a cut shot to the right of the tallest tree on the left side of the fairway. I don’t like to move the ball right to left on this hole. If I leave it out I have a more difficult second shot.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040592_zps6e49aebb.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040592_zps6e49aebb.jpg.html)
To the right of the tree over the dune is the alternate fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020100_zps1b9c7309.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020100_zps1b9c7309.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040593_zps15faa1ee.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040593_zps15faa1ee.jpg.html)
You can see the left to right motion of the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040595_zps91fb2535.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040595_zps91fb2535.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020100_2_zpse79227ff.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020100_2_zpse79227ff.jpg.html)
Second shot from the right-hand section of the fairway. This is not the usual place for a second shot but I can’t find another picture, however, this gives a feeling for the type of shot. What is not visible is the creek in front of the green. A creek runs between the two fairways and in front of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040596_zpse67c2ecc.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040596_zpse67c2ecc.jpg.html)
This is the view of the second shot from the right fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040597_zps66eca73c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040597_zps66eca73c.jpg.html)
Looking back you can see the two fairways and the creek. (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040598_zps43e5f98a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040598_zps43e5f98a.jpg.html)
This view from the ninth tee box gives a good sense of the greens complex.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040600_zpsf6ef9235.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040600_zpsf6ef9235.jpg.html)
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Here's the aerial of the 8th hole for reference:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/14nkzg6.jpg)
For me, the difficulty of this hole has always been trusting the width of the fairway on the left side. From the tee, it looks so much narrower than it is in reality. Looking at the above, you see the "orange" width of the fairway (~25 yards) from the tee, but the actual width ("blue") is closer to 50 yards.
What makes the tee shot feel narrower is the fact that the left fairway slopes severely from left to right. If you don't hit your tee shot with any drive, it can kick across the entire width of the fairway (e.g a ball landing on the left side oft he orange stripe could end up in the right rough if the ball flight is not strong).
From the above, the left tee shot is ~260 yards (from the Ballyhack - 350 yard tees). To the right, you need to carry ~230 yards to reach the fairway. On the right side, there is a severe right-to-left slope which will help you back towards the fairway. I have tried this route many times, but if you are not confident with the 40-60 yard partial wedge, this is not the route for you.
I am not good at this partial shot, but unfortunately for me, I still struggle getting over the mental block of taking an aggressive swing at the left fairway, so I typically play for the right landing zone and take my chances. This seems a little counterintuitive because the right fairway is almost completely obscured. It's odd, because I'm more confident in the width of the right FW knowing it's large but obscured, but I can't believe the left is bigger that the 25 yards it shows me.
You will note that I circled a very small bay in the greenside bunker. This is for Jim Sherma since he had a bad experience with this bay in October. The bay is so narrow that it is almost impossible to take a normal stance or downswing, and it almost an unplayable lie (think of it as a very small pond). There are several of these extreme lies scattered among the bunkers at Ballyhack which can lead to some significant muttering. Over the years, I have developed a list of bunkers at Ballyhack I want to avoid at all costs simply for this potential rub-of-the-green.
Perhaps Jim or Carl may want to take this opportunity to expound upon the bunkers as a punitive hazard at Ballyhack.
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Sorry to be late on a reply. I happen to believe that the first hole is among the most important as it introduces the course to the golfer. By happenstance I recently found this piece by another GCAer who, unlike me, is paid to put his thinking on the ground.
http://adventuresingca.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-first-hole.html
How could the approach on the first hole be friendlier? Well, we agree that the drive requires neither extraordinary length or accuracy. Yet, it is the #5 handicap hole on the course. This must mean that the approach and/or the green complex are very difficult. IMO, they are, particularly for being right out of the box. BTW, I took the first 20 scorecards out of my 2014 box and the average hole handicap for the first hole was just under 10. While mine was hardly a scientific sampling, I suspect that if I increased the sample size to the last 100 different courses I played, Bh's #1 would place in the top 10-20 in terms of relative difficulty.
As to whether it is a "design flaw", I didn't allege that- perhaps Lester likes to get the golfer's blood flowing from the outset. I like uneven lies and elevation changes which Bh has in spades throughout the course. However, if it was just a matter of hitting one more club on the approach (or a solid drive on a better line), I would be playing at a much higher level and we wouldn't be having this discussion here. That Lester had to come back and ring the front of the green suggests that things didn't come out like he planned (which is often the rule in golf course design rather than the exception, and why Ross and Dye earned their reputations for tinkering with what became their best work).
Nice thread thus far. I tend to prefer courses that minimize forced carries, keep the native vegetation well away from the playing areas, and are walkable. That I came away after two rounds at Bh with very good impressions of the course speaks to its great beauty, challenge, and the nice people there. As I recall, I botched the 18th hole to allow a certain opponent from the North to prevail. I am keeping my ammunition dry until we get there.
Lou -
Great thoughts and I definitely respect your perspective about the expectations / demands of a first hole.
Like you alluded, there are elements of Ballyhack that wouldn't normally fit into my ideal. However, I love the course so much, which is a testament to how great the design is and how fun it is to play.
I didn't comment on it earlier, but I was very happy to see that Tommy's first pictures captured the vistas you encounter en route to the first tee. That is an integral part of the experience at Ballyhack. The first time I crossed Pitzer Road, I was in awe by the sensation of the front nine. "Mystical" was the only adjective I could come up with that did it justice.
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You will note that I circled a very small bay in the greenside bunker. This is for Jim Sherma since he had a bad experience with this bay in October. The bay is so narrow that it is almost impossible to take a normal stance or downswing, and it almost an unplayable lie (think of it as a very small pond). There are several of these extreme lies scattered among the bunkers at Ballyhack which can lead to some significant muttering. Over the years, I have developed a list of bunkers at Ballyhack I want to avoid at all costs simply for this potential rub-of-the-green.
Perhaps Jim or Carl may want to take this opportunity to expound upon the bunkers as a punitive hazard at Ballyhack.
Kevin - thanks for bringing this up. I will gladly chime in as I really thought there was a capricious nature to the bunker edges, this one being one of the specific events. I have found that many of the frilly edged neoclassical bunkers around have this nature and it is not specific to Ballyhack.
The cape in question that Kevin noted is shown below:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/14nkzg6.jpg)
I came up short of the green and landed above the bunker with a wedge and bounced/rolled back into this cape. The slope of the sand made the ball roll down and up against the back wall (maybe a 2 or 3 inch sharp edge) into an effectively unplayable lie. The penalty for a slight miss felt very random as being a foot or two left or right would have seen the ball miss the back wall and end up either in the flat of the bunker or in rough above/along the bunker. In this case the issue seemed to be that the sand in the cape was on a slope and the back edge of the cape cut across the slope meaning that any ball that ended up in the cape almost had to roll back against the wall leaving an unplayable lie.
I had a stretch of holes where I either missed right along the bunker edges or had balls roll up against the edges. Many of them ended up with severe penalties if not outright unplayable lies and no real chance for recovery options where a better player can use his skills. If you were to just dig out little water pots around the edges of the bunkers and call them water bunkers you would be vilified. Effectively this is what these types of bunker edges can play as.
I am not a card and pencil guy focused purely on scoring and I really enjoy some random elements to the game. At the same time but I also question maintenance/design choices that create huge binary differences in outcomes for very minor differences in execution.
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My view of the bunkers go back to a previous comment about the need for a 64 degree wedge and also, the, in my view, excessively penal nature of the bunker edges. Stay away from all bunkers at Ballyhack. (see comment below on the 8th hole bunkers)
Hole 8:
I have no hope of hitting the right fairway, so I cannot comment on that option.
This left fairway has a definite tilt to the right ... see the first pic. As a result, for me, the fairway plays narrower than it looks. I have hit several pretty good drives down the middle only to kick right at a 45 degree angle behind the Sycamore tree (the hole's namesake). Thus, I am 120 yards from the hole with no shot. Preferred shot shape is down the middle with the some left spin.
However, if you can hit the fairway and have a clear shot, the wedge approach shot is fairly straight forward to a green that is wide but shallow. I do not recall ever playing to a pin on the right, but the pin on the left is slightly downhill and not a hard shot. The green has less slope or a less number of compounding slopes, so making a putt is possible. As Jim and I have stated, the edges of the bunkers are a definite lost shot, but on this hole the bunkers are not as deep and have more flat lies to relative to other bunkers.
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Carl - I really liked the sand in the bunkers and felt that the bunkers were not especially penal as long as you were truly in them and not up against the edges. There were bunkers that were certainly challenging in their depth and slope but not anything that was out of character for a challenging course. It was the potential for a lack of recovery options from the edges and transitions that is very difficult. As at Ballyneal this year I was relieved when I missed into the bottom and had a swing.
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Kevin,
thanks for the reply. I do still wonder if any of the bunkers are really necessary from a playing strategy though do get your point on the visual impact. This green has to be the coolest green so far from the point of view of asking the golfer to imagine a very straight forward question about allowing fro the slope in a similar way to Gibraltar (Moortown, Leeds) and the 11th at Alwoodley. I am afraid I am constantly asking if bunkers are really necessary whilst playing course as often GCAs use them as a visual prop.
Jon
From a purely aethestic standpoint, it's obviously a beautiful place, but I think the prettiest picture of many of the holes is from the green looking backward, where the bunkers are less visible. (We rarely get backward-looking pictures on course tours, so I wonder if this isn't unique to Ballyhack, we just don't see many such pics.)
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Kevin,
thanks for the reply. I do still wonder if any of the bunkers are really necessary from a playing strategy though do get your point on the visual impact. This green has to be the coolest green so far from the point of view of asking the golfer to imagine a very straight forward question about allowing fro the slope in a similar way to Gibraltar (Moortown, Leeds) and the 11th at Alwoodley. I am afraid I am constantly asking if bunkers are really necessary whilst playing course as often GCAs use them as a visual prop.
Jon
From a purely aethestic standpoint, it's an obviously beautiful place, but I think the prettiest picture of many of the holes is from the green looking backward, where the bunkers are less visible. (We rarely get backward-looking pictures on course tours, so I wonder if this isn't unique to Ballyhack, we just don't see many such pics.)
I completely agree:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7536/15581934417_e6241dd133_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15581305449_ca73698f22_c.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3945/15768709092_a721e98079_c.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3946/15147188684_f49d6a5025_c.jpg)
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Would 8 be a better hole without the tree guarding the right side of the left fairway?
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Here's the aerial of the 8th hole for reference:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/14nkzg6.jpg)
For me, the difficulty of this hole has always been trusting the width of the fairway on the left side. From the tee, it looks so much narrower than it is in reality. Looking at the above, you see the "orange" width of the fairway (~25 yards) from the tee, but the actual width ("blue") is closer to 50 yards.
What makes the tee shot feel narrower is the fact that the left fairway slopes severely from left to right. If you don't hit your tee shot with any drive, it can kick across the entire width of the fairway (e.g a ball landing on the left side oft he orange stripe could end up in the right rough if the ball flight is not strong).
From the above, the left tee shot is ~260 yards (from the Ballyhack - 350 yard tees). To the right, you need to carry ~230 yards to reach the fairway. On the right side, there is a severe right-to-left slope which will help you back towards the fairway. I have tried this route many times, but if you are not confident with the 40-60 yard partial wedge, this is not the route for you.
I am not good at this partial shot, but unfortunately for me, I still struggle getting over the mental block of taking an aggressive swing at the left fairway, so I typically play for the right landing zone and take my chances. This seems a little counterintuitive because the right fairway is almost completely obscured. It's odd, because I'm more confident in the width of the right FW knowing it's large but obscured, but I can't believe the left is bigger that the 25 yards it shows me.
You will note that I circled a very small bay in the greenside bunker. This is for Jim Sherma since he had a bad experience with this bay in October. The bay is so narrow that it is almost impossible to take a normal stance or downswing, and it almost an unplayable lie (think of it as a very small pond). There are several of these extreme lies scattered among the bunkers at Ballyhack which can lead to some significant muttering. Over the years, I have developed a list of bunkers at Ballyhack I want to avoid at all costs simply for this potential rub-of-the-green.
Perhaps Jim or Carl may want to take this opportunity to expound upon the bunkers as a punitive hazard at Ballyhack.
Here is an interesting tidbit about the 8th fairway. If you look at the image where the orange line is, this is mowed as fairway but it is not actually fairway because of its slope. If you land the ball near the bunker, then it will roll right and end up in the rough. You are then blocked out by the tree.
So the playable fairway does not start until after the bunker.
This all goes back to playing the right set of tees and hitting the right club. You would think a drive to the left would be ok, but it needs to carry 25 yards past the bunker, or it will roll all the way to the right rough.
So would I level out the fairway? No, I would rather just grow a first cut of rough up so that a ball does not roll all the way across the fairway. But Ballyhack does not have a first cut of rough. It has fairway, two inch rough and then 6 inch rough.
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Would 8 be a better hole without the tree guarding the right side of the left fairway?
It's no fun to be stymied behind the tree but the hole offers an interesting choice--play to the left fairway which appears to be the safer play, but if you don't hit it left enough or far enough, you're penalized the most, or play to the right fairway which is obscured and appears to be the riskier shot, but you can avoid the tree and have an angle for your second shot that opens up the green (it's not as shallow as from the left). I never tried the right fairway; I play a draw so the tee shot to the left fairway felt comfortable to me. I can see an argument that the penalty for a marginal shot to the left fairway is too severe.
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The discussion of the bunker shapes makes me think of what might be the most discussion-worthy aspect of Ballyhack - the balance between aesthetics and playability.
Like Jim, I have been in the "fingers" of the bunkers at Ballyhack and had virtually no shot to advance the ball. From one of the fairway bunkers at 10, I actually had to play out sideways further into the rough as I couldn't get a stance and swing in any other direction. It's a pretty severe penalty on a course that doesn't lack for severe penalties.
At the same time, the rugged shaping of the bunkers also fits the site well and is a big part of how the course's aesthetic defines itself. They're stunningly presented, but arguably push the boundaries of playability from certain lies and locations. Of course, you always have the option of just staying out of them and, to be fair, some of the bunkers are far riskier than others when it comes to the probability of catching an awful lie.
Ballyhack, with its stunning surroundings, open vistas, and superb shaping, is as handsome a course as I've played. Many of the same features that make it beautiful also make it very difficult, and it feels like a course that walks the edge between beauty and penalty on a frequent basis.
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For me the drive on eight is one of the more difficult ones. If I play it back at te 350 tees I have a difficult time driving the ball far enough to get past the left to right slope that takes the ball to the right rough. I'd like to see some of the slope taken out. As it stands now I just tee it up from the 319 yard tees.
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Would 8 be a better hole without the tree guarding the right side of the left fairway?
that tree is the hole's namesake, "Sycamore"
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Kevin, Scott, Tim:
Great analysis of the eighth. Each time I played it, knowing that I have a tendency to push lay-up shots, I aimed right with tolerable success. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far is that even shots played to the right fairway and pushed seem likely to bounce off the hillside into the fairway. The right fairway looks riskier but finding the fairway is the easy part. The risk lies in facing the dreaded 60-yard approach shot.
I think the hole will still play essentially the same even if the sycamore one day dies.
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The tree is critically important to the hole. It influences any tee shot that isn't hit far enough (as does the hazard that encroaches on the right). The tee shot requires the correct line (just inside the left-hand fairway bunker); any shot hit down the middle must carry a greater distance than most players realize to avoid the right bounce.
The approach plays short. The back bunker gets far more action than most.
Incidentally, there are far more birdies made from the left hand fairway than right.
Lester has some interesting ideas for this hole as time makes erosion less of an issue.
WW
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Earlier this year, after failing to pull off a shot through the Sycamore's branches, a playing companion remarked earlier this year: That tree is 90% tree.
The leaves on that particular plant are particularly large; they tend to deflect almost any shot attempted through it.
WW
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I've hit several drives on 8 that I thought were going to be in fine shape only to discover otherwise -but I never thought the slope of the left fairway was too extreme until this year at the George. From the very back tee I yanked my drive into the left bunker and unfortunately drew a Sherma- lie up against the front lip. My only play was to take my medicine and explode out into the fairway a couple yards in front of the bunker. The ball landed gently at the left edge of the fairway- and trickled all the way into the right rough under namesake tree. I have a hard time understanding how that would be the desired design intent. Figuring a way to soften that slope would be a good thing for the hole.
Maybe the most attractive greensite on the course.
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#9 546, 530, 485, 458
Number nine is a great finisher to a wonderful opening nine holes. Each hole is unique, yet they complement one another. The course offers exceptional quality golf that requires thought, execution, and imagination. Number nine is a good finisher where the player thinks birdie. The landing areas are plenty wide but try not to stray to far afield.
As you walk up a steep slope from eight the vista opens up and holes eight, four, and seven, with six and one in the distance are quite visible.
Here is looking across the eighth fairway to number four.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020244_zpsc8b5d09c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020244_zpsc8b5d09c.jpg.html)
Looking back toward eight tee with seven and six in the distance. The ninth fairway is to the left.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020241_zps4db35171.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020241_zps4db35171.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020241_2_zps8aae0951.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020241_2_zps8aae0951.jpg.html)
The tee shot. At first I found the tee shot a little daunting with the step hill and native grass area on the right. I’d aim down the right and try to hit a little hook so I wouldn’t block it right. It’s not the best strategy. The landing area flows left to right. If, however, you hit the tee shot a little left, the slope of the land will funnel the ball toward the right. The key here is distance. Some longer hitters do not like the first shot because it takes driver out of there hands. Indeed the same holds true for me from the middle tee, unless I aim left and try to hit something left to right. The bunker can be in play if the ball travels too far.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020240_zpsb80ad712.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020240_zpsb80ad712.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040599_zps51010627.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040599_zps51010627.jpg.html)
You will notice a strip of land to the left of the bunker. I have seen guys aim of there, but it is pretty risky. From that point some guys get close in two. I played with one guy who just blew it past the bunker and was left with an iron to the green, but he wasn’t human.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020240_2_zps2b0080db.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020240_2_zps2b0080db.jpg.html)
The best place to be for the second shot is to the right of the bunker. The hole opens up and the second shot is much easier. Hitting it too far right, though, flirts with the slope and native area on the right. Hitting the right side of the fairway requires nerve and confidence.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040604_zpscf5c6c96.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040604_zpscf5c6c96.jpg.html)
Hit is just short of the bunker and this is the blind view of the second shot. The shot from this area is pretty intimidating for me. The landing area is miles wide but if I’m not confident and guard against going right I can pull it a little left.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040605_zps04ce83bd.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040605_zps04ce83bd.jpg.html)
The landing area for the second shot slopes left to right from the left half of the fairway. Even shots that land in the rough can bounce back into the fairway. The middle and right side are relatively flat. There is even an alternate fairway to the right that will save a shot from perdition. It is in view here.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020249_2_zps3844ffbf.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020249_2_zps3844ffbf.jpg.html)
The second shot should be easy, but the intimidation factor is large. Or maybe it is just me. Nonetheless, hit a good shot and the third shot is anywhere from 100 to 30 yards from glory. Certainly birdie territory.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040608_zps266f249e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040608_zps266f249e.jpg.html)
Looking back from the right side of the fairway. Beauty is everywhere and vistas like this are part of the reward of playing there.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040611_zpsd08274c2.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040611_zpsd08274c2.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040610_zps32760299.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040610_zps32760299.jpg.html)
The first time I played the course, I thought Lester must have worn out a bulldozer. The more I play it the better I understand that for the most part he just leveled some places off. I don’t know if it qualifies as “minimalism” but the course was not shaped to death. It is very natural.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020248_zpsf7853f61.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020248_zpsf7853f61.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020250_zps133b6569.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020250_zps133b6569.jpg.html)
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What's the carry distance to clear the bunker on 9?
As mentioned earlier, I don't feel the intimidation at the first tee that others feel at Ballyhack. However, the 9th might be one of the 10 most uncomfortable driving holes I've ever played. It just looks like there's nowhere to hit the ball. The smart play here might be something like 3i-5i-wedge.
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Catch-up time again. This is a fun thread and is fitting for a fun course.
The stretch from 7 through 9 is the least compelling stretch on the course for me. They are all good holes with some good stuff happening but compared to other stretches on the course they are somewhat less compelling for me.
#7: I would vote this as the hole most likely to be seen on a course that wasn't named Ballyhack. Good par-3 that is visually a breather compared to the rest of what preceded it. All in all a solid hole that gets lost in the shuffle as it has nothing to really stick out like so many other holes on the course. I'm guessing that in repeated plays the strategy becomes trying to throw a shot at the left center of the green and if you don't miss next to the pin just try to two-putt and walk away. Missing right appears to be where big numbers lie.
#8: Awkward hole for me. I think the left side is the way to go for me. The right fairway would be more tempting if there wasn't lost ball type gunch on the right side of the fairway over there. Also, unless you really can get the ball up towards the green on the right I don't think the right fairway leaves any better a shot than the left fairway and with more risk or at least visual uncertainty. I wonder if the slope on the left fairway was left as steep as it is in order to incent players to play right in order to not have a wedge shot off of a downhill lie? Real pretty green site but the hole is pretty far down my personal list on the course.
#9: Strange hole. From the back few tee boxes the tee shot is pretty simply to leave it short of the bunker and just not screw up. The right side of the fairway is preferred as Tommy said but the left side is not that bad. After your second the shot into a tough green complex is what makes the hole. I feel that approaching from the right side of the fairway is easier than the left as I think you have more slopes to play directly into. the green has a couple of tiers and any shot that doesn't stay up on the front of the green will roll and roll back towards you.
At the George Cup I played the front tees in the third nine and blew it over the bunkers leaving myself 122 to the pin from the right side of the fairway. From there I landed on the front right fringe and after one bounce up onto the green it proceeded to spin it back all the way to the drain seen in the fairway at the bottom left of this photo.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020249_2_zps3844ffbf.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020249_2_zps3844ffbf.jpg.html)
This stretch is very challenging for me to score well on. It involves very good golf and shots that are more in line with what you would see on other good courses.
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I also wanted to mention the routing on the front nine. As a player and having no real expertise when it comes to what makes a good routing or not I must say that Ballyhack's front nine is one of the few courses that really stand out in my mind on this dimension. The way that the course uses the exposed high points that hold the second and fifth greens is really nice. Leading the players down into the stream flats on 6-8 and then back along the ridge on 9 is really well done in my opinion. The last routing that really blew me away was Lancaster's front nine and how you just popped up at 9's tees after wending around the property and walking off of 8's green.
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What's the carry distance to clear the bunker on 9?
As mentioned earlier, I don't feel the intimidation at the first tee that others feel at Ballyhack. However, the 9th might be one of the 10 most uncomfortable driving holes I've ever played. It just looks like there's nowhere to hit the ball. The smart play here might be something like 3i-5i-wedge.
Wade may know better, but depending on the tee 260-280 I would think.
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One feature on 8 that has not been mentioned is the hill at the front right corner of the green. With the pin in the right corner, it makes it much more tempting (for me) to hit up the right fairway and then have a little pitch into that hill that will make the ball die and move left.
This means you don't have to hit over the bunker and you have a built-in backstop of sorts. Hitting towards that right side corner is pretty scary looking from the left fairway.
Wade, Tommy--do many people use that hill?
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Here's the aerial of the 9th with a few comments:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/20pvr7d.jpg)
From the Ballyhack tees, it is roughly 255 yards to reach the middle FW Bunker and ~275 to carry it. Obviously, it would be less from the Middle Tees, but the issue simply isn't the length of the carry, but the size of the landing area (Yellow Circle) beyond the bunker. To the right is still a patch of heavy rough and to the left is a severe sideslope with patchy ground cover. It's simply too risky a trade-off.
From the beginning of the center FW bunker leaves 270 to the green.
I'll add some more comments later but thought this may help with the visual of the overall hole.
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Kevin, Scott, Tim:
Great analysis of the eighth. Each time I played it, knowing that I have a tendency to push lay-up shots, I aimed right with tolerable success. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far is that even shots played to the right fairway and pushed seem likely to bounce off the hillside into the fairway. The right fairway looks riskier but finding the fairway is the easy part. The risk lies in facing the dreaded 60-yard approach shot.
I think the hole will still play essentially the same even if the sycamore one day dies.
JB -
I've never been comfortable telling people to trust the kick off the hillside because it is hit-or-miss. I've hit shots very right which I've found in the fairway and others marginally right that have disappeared. I've not been able to determine exactly how far right is safe (and much will depend on the trajectory and strength of your ball flight). I think it would be great to spend a day perched on the ninth tee and study the roll out of various tee shots on the 8th.
As Tim pointed out, it may be counter-intuitive that the right side is the "easier" play for big hitters. I'm still torn every time I stand on that tee. From the longer tees, I've even tried the "aim directly at the Sycamore" strategy, knowing that my ball rarely goes where I aim, and hoping my random hook/pull/push/slice finds one of the FW options
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One feature on 8 that has not been mentioned is the hill at the front right corner of the green. With the pin in the right corner, it makes it much more tempting (for me) to hit up the right fairway and then have a little pitch into that hill that will make the ball die and move left.
This means you don't have to hit over the bunker and you have a built-in backstop of sorts. Hitting towards that right side corner is pretty scary looking from the left fairway.
Wade, Tommy--do many people use that hill?
Andy - I think you can use this as a kick-slope, but I don't think there's really any way to avoid having to carry the bunkers. The only way to do that is to drive the green almost pin high, which I've done from the 319 tees. But that really doesn't leave you a great trade-off, because while you may not have to go over the bunkers, the whole green is sloped away from you at that angle and it is difficult to stop the ball.
I used to think the right fairway was a little odd because there didn't seem to be as great a reward as you'd expect for making the heroic carry. But as Tim pointed out, I think the benefit of the right fairway (for longer hitters) is that you can eliminate the concern of running through the fairway and makes it an easier fairway to hit & hold. But unless you're comfortable with the delicate 40-70 yard pitch, it doesn't necessarily pay off.
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Lester has some interesting ideas for this hole as time makes erosion less of an issue.
WW
Any chance Lester can elaborate (or you can share?)
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The discussion of the bunker shapes makes me think of what might be the most discussion-worthy aspect of Ballyhack - the balance between aesthetics and playability.
Like Jim, I have been in the "fingers" of the bunkers at Ballyhack and had virtually no shot to advance the ball. From one of the fairway bunkers at 10, I actually had to play out sideways further into the rough as I couldn't get a stance and swing in any other direction. It's a pretty severe penalty on a course that doesn't lack for severe penalties.
At the same time, the rugged shaping of the bunkers also fits the site well and is a big part of how the course's aesthetic defines itself. They're stunningly presented, but arguably push the boundaries of playability from certain lies and locations. Of course, you always have the option of just staying out of them and, to be fair, some of the bunkers are far riskier than others when it comes to the probability of catching an awful lie.
Ballyhack, with its stunning surroundings, open vistas, and superb shaping, is as handsome a course as I've played. Many of the same features that make it beautiful also make it very difficult, and it feels like a course that walks the edge between beauty and penalty on a frequent basis.
I think that's the part that will always make it difficult for Ballyhack to ever get universal recognition from raters. The punitive edge of the course can cloud the perception of raters and lead to polarizing opinions. I played Ballyhack and Kinloch in the same week, and left thinking Ballyhack was the superior design - more memorable, more fun, more variety, etc. Yet Kinloch is Top 20 in Golfweek Modern lists and Ballyhack doesn't even crack the Top 200.
I wouldn't mind discussing this more. But, to avoid taking the focus away from the features of the various individual holes, perhaps it may be better to have "macro level" discussions of topics such as these at the conclusion of the tour (unless they specifically apply to the individual holes). (But if others would like to discuss deeper, I'm certainly not going to object).
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This hole plays in the opposite direction from no. 2 and often into the wind.
For a short hitter, like myself, the drive is not much of a problem. But the second shot is, as the fairway slopes decidedly right (like the 8th hole). My second shot is usually in the right rough. I am not long enough to hit the second fairway farther up the fairway.
The approach shot must be hit with precision to hit the correct level of the green where the pin is cut. A putt from the upper to the lower level can (and will) travel 25 yards off the green down the hill. Putting from the lower level to the upper level is usually a 3 putt. The bunker right is steep and severe.
The golfer can find him/herself subjected to a series of calamities on this hole while not hitting really bad shots.
Should this hole be shorter and a par 4? Keep the same green site?
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from my perspective the play-ability of the front nine can be summarized as follows:
hole 1: intimidating drive that one can probably get used to followed by extremely severe up hill approach, epic death penalty false front
hole 2: very playable for all, visually stunning
hole 3: hard, incredible green
hole 4: hard .... viscous & devious (maybe less so if one could play it every week)
hole 5: ease of drive does not provide comfort from brutal approach
hole 6: tee shot control of direction and length required, a subtle green ... hard to get the short approach shot close
hole 7: fair and nicely benched into the hill
hole 8: fairway plays more narrow than it looks, beautiful green setting (how long will the Sycamore live?)
hole 9: stunning view of the front nine the entire length compensates from potential card wrecker on every shot, strong nerves needed
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As mentioned earlier, I don't feel the intimidation at the first tee that others feel at Ballyhack. However, the 9th might be one of the 10 most uncomfortable driving holes I've ever played. It just looks like there's nowhere to hit the ball. The smart play here might be something like 3i-5i-wedge.
I think this is a really good strategy for playing the ninth. For me, the chances of reaching it in two are much too low for me to take out the driver on my next visit.
The more I think about the eighth, I realize that the sycamore and the slopes serve to widen the playing corridor: to make the appropriate target line far away from the center-line creek. (Kevin, I appreciate your comment about the hill on the right.)
Lester has some interesting ideas for this hole as time makes erosion less of an issue.
WW
Any chance Lester can elaborate (or you can share?)
One interesting idea would be to eliminate all of the center rough, which would accentuate the need to play away from the creek.
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Likewise, to catch up...
#7. Possibly the most straightforward hole on the course. As Jim said, aim for the left third of the green, or the quadrant of the pin, and take 3, or a depth charge. There are some ridges, but they are not as pronounced as the ones on the 17th. Right is dead.
#8. I think this is the most controversial hole on the course, and the discussion generated so far reflects that. The left fairway slopes further right than one imagines, and the right fairway is a decent carry on an unknown line and leaves a short shot from a tight lie that leaves little margin for error.
To discuss #8 further, I went back to the State Open data from this year to look for anomalies in the data related to this hole. I did find some interesting ones. While 'only' the 8th hardest hole, it saw the second fewest pars - only #4 had less (163 to 160) and actually had more bogeys recorded than #4 (114 to 113). Maybe more later on this. It did have more birdies, and not the volume of double or worse. As such, I think that there will continue to be much discussion of the hole. For the record, I like it.
#9. For me, not much to discuss here. It's a driver, a solid layup, and a short iron to a green that you had better get your distance correct, or you are working hard to avoid a three putt. I too like the trip back to the clubhouse along the ridge where you can reflect on the holes that you've played already.
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#10 par five 595,569, 508, 462
Number ten is really special. It may be my favorite hole on the course. I’d be curious to hear what Lester has to say, but it seems to have been designed by nature. It is dogleg right that is bordered by a deep chasm. It is reachable for many if there is nerve, length, and execution. Tee it up and think birdie, hit a loose second of third shot and a write seven on the card. I don’t see many guys play it all the way back. I will play it either at 569 or 508. From 508 it is almost reachable for me, but my second shot needs to be pretty accurate. The par fives are as varied a set as I have ever seen. They are some of the most fun holes on a course fill with fun.
This first picture displays the entire hole from the clubhouse.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040681_zps6a5dc158.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040681_zps6a5dc158.jpg.html)
View from the tee. The fairway slopes a bit from left to right and plays a little downhill. Hit a little low runner and it will go a long way. Most players hit the tee shot to the corner of the dogleg.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040614_zps063462b6.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040614_zps063462b6.jpg.html)
From here you can see the natural curve of the hole.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020102_zps243ff593.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020102_zps243ff593.jpg.html)
View from just short of the dogleg’s corner.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040615_zps689b00a3.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040615_zps689b00a3.jpg.html)
View of the second shot. To the left is fairway that runs all the way to the hole. There is a lay up to the right that will leave a 100-120 yard shot.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040616_zps4041a520.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040616_zps4041a520.jpg.html)
Lay up and this is the third shot.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040619_zpsc55ae627.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040619_zpsc55ae627.jpg.html)
Hit is left and you can reach the green, or at least get close. See my ball about 20 yards short of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040620_zpsfbc8fc98.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040620_zpsfbc8fc98.jpg.html)
This was my third shot that day.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040621_zps9b9f821a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040621_zps9b9f821a.jpg.html)
Looking back. This picture does not show the depth of the chasm very well.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020103_zpseba67d68.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020103_zpseba67d68.jpg.html)
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hole 9: stunning view of the front nine the entire length compensates from potential card wrecker on every shot, strong nerves needed
Pay less attention to the views and you won't wreck your scorecard...
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I would have thought this hole to play under par in the State Open. Perhaps Wade knows.....
Very fair hole for the short straight hitter. The long aggressive and inconsistent player may have some soul searching because, as usual for Ballyhack, the off line shot offers limited at best (or flat out lucky) chance of recovery. Pins are accessible. I do not believe I have played the hole with a front right pin (I assume that would be the most difficult). Not the most difficult green to putt.
As with all holes at Ballyhack, stunning views in all directions.
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To discuss #8 further, I went back to the State Open data from this year to look for anomalies in the data related to this hole. I did find some interesting ones. While 'only' the 8th hardest hole, it saw the second fewest pars - only #4 had less (163 to 160) and actually had more bogeys recorded than #4 (114 to 113). Maybe more later on this. It did have more birdies, and not the volume of double or worse. As such, I think that there will continue to be much discussion of the hole. For the record, I like it.
Is it possible to learn how many rules decisions were made during this tournament and the average time to play the last round (better yet, how long did it take for the final groups to play)? How many 3-3 decisions? How did these compare to other tournaments run by the sponsoring organization?
Kevin Lynch,
Do raters look at a course that much differently than non-raters? Most golfers I know, a good number who have no clue what Golfweek or Golf Digest ask their raters to consider, like variety, good greens, some turf on the tees and the fairways, challenge without being overly punitive (what some here derisively refer to as "fair"), hazards which offer some opportunity to recover, not losing very many golf balls, nice aesthetics, a warm, welcoming environment. They also don't want to pay a lot of money for their golf, but that's a different issue.
Bh is a very difficult course particularly for the bogey golfer. That it is polarizing should not be a surprise. Some folks like to get their butts beat; others prefer a more "playable" experience. In some respects, though I only played it twice on back-to-back days, it reminded me a bit of Prairie Dunes in that no matter how well you might be playing, in the back of your mind you know that a couple of blow-up holes are waiting for you. I can see how it is a course that provides great satisfaction from playing shots well even if the scorecard is nothing to write home about.
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I think that's the part that will always make it difficult for Ballyhack to ever get universal recognition from raters. The punitive edge of the course can cloud the perception of raters and lead to polarizing opinions.
I get what you're saying, but is it really "clouding" the raters' perception? The punitive edge of the course is real. Punitive edges are also generally frowned upon, as they hurt playability for the bulk of players.
I think Ballyhack's reputation is completely fair, with plenty of detractors and plenty of accolades. If a random sampling of 1000 golfers were to play it, I suspect a lot of them would hate it for being too difficult and punishing. A lot of them would also consider it one of the best courses they've played, thanks to the scenery and originality of the holes and incredible conditions and general prevalence of swashbuckling shots. Neither group's perception is truly clouded. Different golfers simply prioritize different things.
Is Ballyhack a really beautiful course with tons of variety and fun, or is it an unwalkable brute that eats balls and punishes weak players?
The answer is "Yes." And it's on full display at 10, where a reasonably strong player can make a bold play equally likely to set up an eagle or a double bogey, while a weak player might get stuck in the ravine right, pitch out into a bunker with no escape available, and just walk back to the clubhouse to start drinking while his group plays the final 8.
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There is just so much to talk about on the 9th hole, which many have touched upon:
- Routing - Like Jonathan, Jim & Carl said, I love the fact that this hole allows you to recap the entire front nine with a view of every hole at some point along the ninth. As I mentioned earlier, the land on the front has a near mystical quality for me, and I still get goosebumps every time I cross Pitzer Road. It's neat that the longer trip to the first tee gives you a great preview and closes with the vistas along #9.
- Drive - I am in the same boat as Jason, as this is one of the more uncomfortable tee shots for me. Depending on the tees and wind conditions, I can hit anything from from full driver to needing to throttle back on a hybrid. The good news is that the left area is more vast than you think and can contain even very big pulls or snap hooks. The bad news is that you can draw a very bad lie on the hillside which could make it difficult to even carry the first FW bunker and attached rough (i.e. get within 200 yards or so). As for the right side, I've found and played numerous recoveries from the cliff-side over the years, usually amusing Andy Hughes in the process. But you're better off missing by a lot than a little, as I've played second shots from the 8th tee several times.
- 2nd Shot - The toughest aspect for me is that most lies in the fairway seems to be either slightly downhill or below my feet, unless you can flirt with the cliff and end up on the right side of the fairway. This makes for a very uncomfortable 2nd shot for me, as it is blind, and the lie almost requires you to hit a fade (and usually off a very tight lie, as well). Combine that with a normal head wind or cross wind and the pronounced left to right slope of the landing area, and this is one shot on the course I wish Lester would reconsider. The fairway is 35 yards in the 200-100 yard range, but the lies on the left are very random & severe and the right is a severe fall-off.
Even if you lay up just short of the FW bunker, you still need to to hit a shot ~ 200 yards to get to the very wide areas (again, off a tight uneven lie and into the wind). For a shorter hitter, this is a very difficult 2nd (and for a longer hitter as well). If the left hillside were a little more predictable and routinely could be used as a kickboard, I'd think this was a fairer shot. However, I have seen balls stop dead on the hill while others have kicked back to the fairway as expected. Perhaps this left side is an area that will change over the years as the erosion control rough is softened.
- Approach - I haven't been as intimidated by this approach as others. Perhaps it's because I hit more stray shots than Tommy (no doubt about that), but I've discovered just how much forgiveness there is on the left side of this green. I've hit shots that landed even left of the greenside bunker that have found their way back to the putting surface (this hillside has generally been more predictable). Also, if the pin is on the lower right, you really don't have to fire anywhere near it (and flirt with the more severe right greenside bunker). There is a left-to-right slope on the left middle of the green that can be used to bring balls back to the lower right. Also, as far as greenside bunkers go, the front left bunker has enough slope that balls tend to collect in the middle, leaving a relatively straightforward explosion.
- Green - This is one of my favorite features of this hole, as I love using the slopes and contours as backstops and playing unusual recoveries. Any time there is a lower pin, I inevitably ignore the distance to the hole. I am always looking to play a running shot that will go up the slope and then come back to the hole. I'm amazed how many times I see people who are 20-30 yards short of the green trying to hit a gap wedge or lob wedge that will land just on the front of the green and roll up to the hole (from an uphill lie). So many times the ball pops up more than expected or is heavy, lands short and rolls all the way back to them. I much prefer the margin of error of a bump and run (or putter), with my only goal to ensure the ball gets past the hole. If it goes 10 feet past the hole, it usually comes back 10 feet from the back slope. If it goes 20 feet past the hole, it usually comes back 21 or 22 feet.
Carl mentioned that putts from the upper to lower level can roll 25 yards down the fairway, but that's only if you simply consider the traditional "die it at the crest" direct route to the pin. The best way to get a putt close from the upper-to-lower level is to aim at the left middle of the green and use the counter-slope there.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/aepssn.jpg)
From the upper tier, the traditional "die at the crest" approach (Red Line) will often run off the green as there is not very much counter-slope on the front of the lower tier. But if you can die a ball anywhere left middle (Yellow Line), it will trickle down to the lower level with less velocity somewhere in the middle of the tier, which will leave you a reasonable chance for a two putt.
The Blue Line shows my preferred method of approach for shorter shots into the green.
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To discuss #8 further, I went back to the State Open data from this year to look for anomalies in the data related to this hole. I did find some interesting ones. While 'only' the 8th hardest hole, it saw the second fewest pars - only #4 had less (163 to 160) and actually had more bogeys recorded than #4 (114 to 113). Maybe more later on this. It did have more birdies, and not the volume of double or worse. As such, I think that there will continue to be much discussion of the hole. For the record, I like it.
I can see how it is a course that provides great satisfaction from playing shots well even if the scorecard is nothing to write home about.
For me this is the essence of BH. In the rare occasion I can avoid a spate of doubles/others- well, that's great. But most of the time it's completely irrelevant. I'm always looking forward to the next hole's adventure.
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Lou / Jonathan / Jason,
Great feedback and I think everyone summarized the perceptions of Ballyhack very well. The discussion and passion involved with Ballyhack is why I love it.
Jonathan,
Your stats on the 8th hole are an example of what I find really interesting about Ballyhack. Several holes can lead to a big number, but then when you reflect on the actual shot demands, you're surprised how attainable they are. Think about the 1st hole, and if you've ever birdied that one, you think what a great feeling it is because you know what can happen to you (tee intimidation, false front, etc). But if you were to recap it, you'd tell your buddy "I hit 3-wood, 9-iron to 8 feet and made the putt." They may not be impressed and ask "Was it a real narrow hole?" "No, fairway is 60 yards wide." The same could be said for shorter holes like the 8th or 11th, but unless you've played enough times to see what can happen, it may not seem like much.
(BTW - nothing will ever dilute the impressiveness of Lou Duran's famous Duece on the 12th).
Lou,
I think you nailed it with the statement "I can see how it is a course that provides great satisfaction from playing shots well even if the scorecard is nothing to write home about" which is what Chris echoed.
As for being overly punitive for a bogey golfer, I'd have to defer on that, because there are some many different types of those. There are wild, long bogey golfers that could be eaten up, but there are also straight, short-hitting ones that could navigate their way around Ballyhack while avoiding the disasters (depending if they could navigate the few forced carries). I think Tommy mentioned one of his bogey golfer friends loving the place.
Short-hitting bogey golfers may have wildly different perceptions than a shorter-hitting low handicap, simply because their scoring expectations are different. For example, both Tommy & Carl mentioned the difficulty of the uphill approach on #5 because as 6 or lower handicaps, their expectation is to hit a green in regulation, which is tougher with a low trajectory. But a bogey golfer might happily accept bouncing short and pitching up onto the green (with a big backstop). Same goes for number 1, especially now that they put in the ring of rough to keep the false front from compounding the penalty. Once they can get over the tee shot, they may not think it's a hard bogey at all.
Lou / Jason,
As for the rater question, I don't think the concerns about playability are unfounded. But I think it's just human nature that those perceptions may tend to intrude on the rankings for other features and drag down the overall ranking more than would be reasonable. I guess I have so much admiration for the design, variety, aesthetics, fun, firm & fast conditions,and atmosphere that I'm still surprised it can't overcome the playability questions, especially considering that there is quite a bit of room out there to navigate. There are other well-regarded courses that have difficult conditions and still rate well.
You mentioned Prairie Dunes. I haven't been there, but from the threads that were started around the NCAAs and a review of Google Earth imagery, it appears that Ballyhack provides much more fairway area and equally wide (if not wider) playing corridors between the nasty stuff. Perhaps you can shed some comparative insight as to how much the unplayable areas intrude into your mind at the respective places.
But perhaps it is the random and absolute penalties that sometimes occur at Ballyhack which stick with people more and make it feel more "unplayable" than the fairway width may suggest (look at the perceptions of #1 as an illustration).
Don't get me wrong, I wish Ballyhack would (or could) find a way to soften the absolute nature of some areas of the course. As Lester alluded earlier, some of it is due to erosion control / environmental restrictions. And the playability has fluctuated quite a bit over the course of several years' visits, from not even entering my mind on some visits to being an overwhelming concern on others. It seems most people on this thread still adore the course passionately even with the concerns raised - I just imagine how amazing the course would be if some of the edge could be softened. Not even eliminated - just softened enough for me to find the ball and try some stupid 1 out of 20 heroic recovery shot. I even think the occasional "rub of the green" lies in the bunkers would be accepted more if the golfer hadn't just breathed a sigh of relief for avoiding the lost-ball rough.
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Here's a link to the Virginia State Open Course Statistics from earlier this year:
http://www.ghintpp.com/vsga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=1376 (http://www.ghintpp.com/vsga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=1376)
A brief summary:
Hole Rank Avg
1 7 4.464
2 18 4.851
3 9 3.456
4 1 4.564
5 11 4.372
6 14 4.206
7 10 3.390
8 8 4.461
9 13 5.235
39.000
10 15 5.193
11 6 4.484
12 3 4.536
13 12 3.259
14 2 4.553
15 16 5.173
16 4 4.527
17 17 3.075
18 5 4.522
39.308
78.308
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Here's the 10th Hole Aerial:
(http://i59.tinypic.com/30m4g8i.jpg)
I drew these from the Ballyhack Tees (569 yards), which I believe often doubles as the end of the Practice Range. You can see the Big Lick (595) way back between the cart path and Pitzer Road. I tried these only once while having a particularly good driving day with my hickories (straight downwind), just to say that I did it once. Just so you appreciate how firm and downhill the landing area is, I only had 270 in, so if you can get some burn on your tee shot, it will roll quite a bit.
The Yellow Line is the traditional 3 shot approach and the Orange Line is how a monster hitter may get home in two. I drew the Green Line to highlight a speed slot that Lester built in starting roughly 70 yards out. It you can hit a hard low shot, reaching this green is attainable, even from 270-280 yards. It is a very tight neck, especially with the chasm to the right, but if you can hit the slot, you will be amazed how much you will run out.
Depending on the maintenance at a point in time, you may be able to hit further left than the Green line and kick off the hillside towards the green. The last George Cup, I did just that and ended up on the fringe. Other times, the same shot has hung up, but still left an opportunity to pull off an awkward lie pitch to the green.
The Black Line represents my improper perception of the fairway line (until seeing this aerial) and explains why I have lost so many balls in the right rough over the years. I will be aiming much more left in future visits.
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ssssh on #12; even par over two days (representative of Bh- doubleB/eagle?). 4 over on 4, 14,15; 5 over on 18. Par 5s are among my favorites: -2 best ball over two days; +4 for both rounds (with a day1 9 on 15). How often is there a difference of six strokes from low to high score in a single round?
RE: Prairie Dunes, the only similarity to BH I was alluding to is how punitive some holes can be. At PD it is due primarily to its unforgiving gunch that is in play on a normal day and impossible to avoid when the wind blows (which I am told is quite often, 35 to 40+ mph during my last visit). It doesn't have the topography of Bh (though many of its tees and some of the greens are perched), it is a smaller course, and the fairways are quite a bit narrower. I remember a mid-single digit national member who said he hadn't broken 80 in his many visits despite being just a few over par for 15-16 holes. A blow-up hole or two always got in the way. A far better match play course IMO than medal; ditto for Bh. I would love to play Greensomes at Bh some day (foursomes with both players on each side driving the ball and alternating from there).
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I am sufficiently behind that I won't try to catch up fully, and just add a couple things:
#6 - agree with JC who made two solid points - that the hole should play 280-300 for everyone; and that the vegetation should allow the golfer who goes at the green to more easily see his ball. I hit one ball at the George Cup I thought was perfect but we couldn't find it around the green. And I am not even Kevin Lynch long. During the George Cup team part, our group hit two on the green, but we couldn't be certain until we got there. I am sure this hole contributed a lot to the slow play that day.
I enjoyed that hole the most of almost any other for its pure risk-reward.
#10 - from the tees we played at the George Cup, we ended up about 230-240 out I think. I found the hole a little bit like the par 5s at Tullymore in that there was too much trouble around the green for a mere mortal to think about going at it in two. But it also somewhat discouraging to hit a huge drive, then have to hit 9 iron-wedge.
General - I struggled the most with the uphill shots; that is, knowing how many yards/clubs to add. It's an uneasiness which permeates your whole round, and frustrated me given that small misses in some cases cost multiple shots. But it also made successful shots that much more rewarding.
All in, an awesome place and an awesome course. I look forward to reading about the back nine, which is likely to be a little more controversial.
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I am sufficiently behind that I won't try to catch up fully, and just add a couple things:
#10 - from the tees we played at the George Cup, we ended up about 230-240 out I think. I found the hole a little bit like the par 5s at Tullymore in that there was too much trouble around the green for a mere mortal to think about going at it in two. But it also somewhat discouraging to hit a huge drive, then have to hit 9 iron-wedge.
All in, an awesome place and an awesome course. I look forward to reading about the back nine, which is likely to be a little more controversial.
Neil, the first dozen times I never went for the green in two. The last bunch of times I have gone after it, mainly because I am talking with my three wood again. Even if you pull it a tad the hill to the left of the fairway is very friendly, so like many shots at Ballyhack the target is wider than it appears.
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I am sufficiently behind that I won't try to catch up fully, and just add a couple things:
#6 - agree with JC who made two solid points - that the hole should play 280-300 for everyone; and that the vegetation should allow the golfer who goes at the green to more easily see his ball. I hit one ball at the George Cup I thought was perfect but we couldn't find it around the green. And I am not even Kevin Lynch long. During the George Cup team part, our group hit two on the green, but we couldn't be certain until we got there. I am sure this hole contributed a lot to the slow play that day.
I enjoyed that hole the most of almost any other for its pure risk-reward.
#10 - from the tees we played at the George Cup, we ended up about 230-240 out I think. I found the hole a little bit like the par 5s at Tullymore in that there was too much trouble around the green for a mere mortal to think about going at it in two. But it also somewhat discouraging to hit a huge drive, then have to hit 9 iron-wedge.
General - I struggled the most with the uphill shots; that is, knowing how many yards/clubs to add. It's an uneasiness which permeates your whole round, and frustrated me given that small misses in some cases cost multiple shots. But it also made successful shots that much more rewarding.
All in, an awesome place and an awesome course. I look forward to reading about the back nine, which is likely to be a little more controversial.
Hey Neil - glad to get some feedback from the Windy City.
#6 - I'm fairly sure the lost ball was due to the fact there was only 5 minutes of sunlight left in the day and we didn't pick through the rough around the right greenside bunker. You were definitely there (and you are just as long as I am and much more consistent).
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#10 - But you are no "mere mortal." If I'd been with you on #10, I would have caddied you into an Eagle Putt (or a Triple Bogey) - no guarantees. But I'll take a Triple Bogey long before I ever lay up with a wedge on a Par 5. If there's water between me and the hole, I'll try the Mickelson skip shot first. If you're at all adept at controlling punch shots, another alternative it to aim for the neck / speed slot and you will be amazed at how close you can get. Whether you're better at a 40-50 yard pitch vs a full wedge from the wider landing area is a decision to make, but you generally have a ground option from the speed slot (unless the pin is well right).
But, to your point, the worry you have about the risk trade-off being too high is the same concern Jim Sherma raised about trying to drive #6 (and I've already talked you into that one). I felt the same way about #10's second shot, but I think the area on the hillside left is a little more manageable and provides a reasonable "bail out" from the right chasm (and helps push balls back towards the green). Even if you get hung up on the left hillside, I'm fairly comfortable with the "chunk and run" from an awkward stance. But I suppose if I draw one of those random death lies over there I may change my tune a little, but this year was the first time I was able to get through a George Cup "Chasm Free" so I'm emboldened to keep going for it.
The one item that I forgot to mention on #10 is the lie of the fairway if you're in reachable range (which, given the speed slot and firm conditions, is further back than you think). The fairways roll quite a bit, so this can change, but generally I've noticed I'll have a slightly downhill/sidehill lie on the right side of the fairway, but a little flatter lie the more left I go.
With the chasm on the right, I want to be as far right as possible so I'm aiming away from it, but the downhill lie may bring the chasm into play. However, at the same time, it also promotes the ball flight you want if you aim at the left hillside and bring it back to the speed slot. From the left side of the fairway, I've never been comfortable going for the green in two just given the angle relative to the chasm, even though the lie is flatter.
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Being a Chicago flatlander, I understand why you may not be as acclimated to the uphill approaches. Of course, if you don't like uphill approaches with significant penalties for small misses, I'm assuming Cog Hill Dubsdread isn't among your Chicagoland favorites. :)
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RE: Prairie Dunes, the only similarity to BH I was alluding to is how punitive some holes can be. At PD it is due primarily to its unforgiving gunch that is in play on a normal day and impossible to avoid when the wind blows (which I am told is quite often, 35 to 40+ mph during my last visit). It doesn't have the topography of Bh (though many of its tees and some of the greens are perched), it is a smaller course, and the fairways are quite a bit narrower. I remember a mid-single digit national member who said he hadn't broken 80 in his many visits despite being just a few over par for 15-16 holes. A blow-up hole or two always got in the way. A far better match play course IMO than medal; ditto for Bh. I would love to play Greensomes at Bh some day (foursomes with both players on each side driving the ball and alternating from there).
I understood what you meant - I was just curious if you found Ballyhack any more or less playable than Prairie Dunes given they both have a punitive threat. And one is rated very highly despite that edge, even though it appears equally punitive. It's almost as if the punishment at Prairie Dunes is expected and accepted given the smaller nature of the course, but when a course appears as expansive as Ballyhack, the lost ball areas are more shocking.
Again, not playing PD, I can't comment on the relative strength of the designs, but I feel so strongly about the positive aspects of Ballyhack that I can't believe there's that much disparity.
Ballyhack is definitely a great match play course and also fun in other formats. At this past George Cup, we had a good time playing modified Alternate Shot (picking from best of two tee shots), and I imagine Greensomes / Scotch Doubles would be equally fun. Of course, the risk reward nature of the course lends itself to heroics, and many of our "racing sunset" rounds have been Two Man Scrambles played head-to-head.
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Kevin - I don't dislike Dubs, but seldom play it due to its low placement on the value continuum in Chicago. I am not certain your comparison is apt though. Number 5 is a great example. There are certainly few approaches anywhere in Illinois (maybe Flossmoor #17) which are uphill to this degree.
But it's not an unfair approach, and it's a fun shot to play. But I think it takes some practice to develop the feel necessary to know how much club to take. In the moment, you come up 2 yards short from glory, and watch it bound down the hill, and it's frustrating. But it's far more memorable than coming up 2 yards shot on a "flat lander" course and having a far easier up and down. Not a design flaw by any means, just a challenge to which I am unaccustomed. I look forward to returning armed with that experience.
Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.
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Catching up here...
#9 - maybe my least favorite hole at Ballyhack all because of the tee shot; for me, absent a particularly helping or hurting wind, there's really nowhere for me to land my driver shot; sure, I should take 3 wood, but I don't like not having a reasonable option of hitting a driver on a par 5; maybe I'm too dogmatic on this.
#10 - a beautifully presented hole and one of my favorites; I also have been reluctant to attempt the green with my second shot, but only because I'm not trusting my 5 wood these days. This was the first hole I played at Ballyhack and it was a great introduction.
I really enjoy the back nine at Ballyhack--looking forward to the rest of the tour.
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Kevin - I don't dislike Dubs, but seldom play it due to its low placement on the value continuum in Chicago. I am not certain your comparison is apt though. Number 5 is a great example. There are certainly few approaches anywhere in Illinois (maybe Flossmoor #17) which are uphill to this degree.
But it's not an unfair approach, and it's a fun shot to play. But I think it takes some practice to develop the feel necessary to know how much club to take. In the moment, you come up 2 yards short from glory, and watch it bound down the hill, and it's frustrating. But it's far more memorable than coming up 2 yards shot on a "flat lander" course and having a far easier up and down. Not a design flaw by any means, just a challenge to which I am unaccustomed. I look forward to returning armed with that experience.
Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.
That last line is funny!!! But I'm out of the "Excessively Proud Defending Champion" persona now and happily handed that persona off to Tommy.
Besides, I think Carl already returned me to my old label a few posts ago without mentioning my name when he said the "long aggressive and inconsistent player may have some soul searching because, as usual for Ballyhack, the off line shot offers limited at best (or flat out lucky) chance of recovery."
I think he may have given his assessment of my championship reign as well (the "flat out lucky" part).
I agree that the magnitude of the uphill is more severe than at Cog Hill. I guess I have just taken for granted how much of an adjustment those approaches are for people (I have two uphill approaches of #5's magnitude at my home course). I've always said that my favorite part of these holes is the building anticipation and the "reveal" after you have struck one well enough to clear the front, but you're never sure how close.
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Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.
That last line is funny!!! But I'm out of the "Excessively Proud Defending Champion" persona now and happily handed that persona off to Tommy.
I am humbled by my demolition of the field. The George Cup is never far from my side.
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#11 par four—357,322,265,250,246
For the first few dozen times I played this hole I chose the 322 tees. From there I would aim for a little bowl on the right side of the fairway, because a tee shot that lands a little left of middle rolls to the left rough. Then I decided to move up to the 250 tee periodically and have a go at the green. I can’t carry the ball far enough to land the ball on the green, so I’d aim to the right front fringe. Fronting the green is the bunker of damnation. To the right of the bunker is a space about 15 yards wide. It is one of the most fun shots on the course. It makes little sense for me to hit driver from that tee. I just can’t help myself. I don’t make any more birdies than from the 322 tee but I sure enjoy the hole more. That is the essence of Ballyhack. The course is a sultry blonde at the end of the bar saying, “Come here, handsome. Can you handle me?”
The walk off the tenth tee gets your heart beating a littler more quickly because you know what is coming.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/BallyhackNov2012photo-2copy_zps5ccf0fb3.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/BallyhackNov2012photo-2copy_zps5ccf0fb3.jpg.html)
Like many holes on the course there is a different look or a different angle from the tees. Below is the view from the 322 tee marker.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020105_zpsae846c23.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020105_zpsae846c23.jpg.html)
Close up. Notice the right to left slope from the middle of the fairway. To the right of middle the fairway is a little more level, albeit an uphill stance.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040623_zps1110d8a5.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040623_zps1110d8a5.jpg.html)
From the 322 tee I aim for the little bowl on the right side of the fairway. The shot is blind to the green but the left side is a little dicey. While the tee shot seems uphill it really on rises a bit. The fairway, however, goes uphill so there is very little roll. In fact, depending, on where the tee shot lands, I have had my ball roll backwards. Yet it still is only about 120 yards for me. The second shot is not as much uphill as it seems and when the pin is back I have flown the green at times. I have seen longer hitters get close to the green. The ability to fly the ball a long way helps at Ballyhack. Where I make up ground is that I am pretty straight and lose very few balls. I can go for rounds and not lose any.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020104_2_zps05a5f0e1.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020104_2_zps05a5f0e1.jpg.html)
Looking back from the landing area.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020106_zps497bdf54.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020106_zps497bdf54.jpg.html)
Push the tee shot and here is what you get.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020107_zpsb0d9df71.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020107_zpsb0d9df71.jpg.html)
Here is the view from above the 250 tee marker. (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020104_zps2c76bd99.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020104_zps2c76bd99.jpg.html)
This gives you an idea of the green and surrounds if you try to drive the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020104_3_zps97e3f628.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020104_3_zps97e3f628.jpg.html)
A bunker guards the entire left side of the green. The green is long and narrow. It may be a club and a half longer from front to back. I was dismayed to discover that I have no pictures of the green. The green is relatively flat but moves left to right and front to back.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020110_zps826e0a44.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020110_zps826e0a44.jpg.html)
Looking back the severe slope is easy to see.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020109_zpsf7bd59fa.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020109_zpsf7bd59fa.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040627_zps436a3784.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040627_zps436a3784.jpg.html)
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Sultry Blonde comment is all-world
#embellish
#periphrasis
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It has been quite a while since I was at Ballyhack and I want to ask about the areas surrounding the bunkers. In some cases it is mowed fairly closely and balls will probably roll into them but in other places the grass surrounding the bunkers is extremely long and would prevent balls from rolling into the bunkers and make for a nearly impossible recovery shot or even a lost ball. I don't know how I would react if I lost a ball or had an impossible shot rather than being able to play from the bunker.
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Welcome to the party Jerry. The bunker edgings has been an ongoing sub-plot on this thread. Outcomes are very much luck of the draw around them.
#10 is a wonderful par 5. A drive where you can open your shoulders and fully release without too much fear. The really interesting aspect of the hole for me is choosing how aggressive to be on the second shot. The drop-off right and the bunkers left can both be penal and there really is not that much room in the neck to be whacking a 3-wood into. If you get up short of the green you have a fairly simple chip that should end with a 4 or 5. Laying back leave a wedge from a tougher angle. This green is also more difficult than appears and seems to have more tilt than undulation. Longish putts have been tough for me to get the speed right. This is my favorite par 5 on the course and one of my favorite holes.
#11 - I guess it manages to get you to the 12th tee... Really an odd ball and awkward hole in my opinion. Most of the fairway is essentially useless, I can't imagine what a second shot up the hill from anything short of the right fairway bunker must be like. I think you have to get it up to the right side bowl that Tommy mentioned at the very least. Banging it just short of the front bunker leaves either a nasty little pitch over the bunker or some type of bump/chip off of the right front slope.
On this hole Tommy played one of the best chips I have ever seen with a lob wedge off of the right fringe over a little knob with some check on it. If I had hands like that I could've been competitive.
This hole has some strategic similarities to the 9th at Ballyneal in that you really need to aggressively get it up the hill to leave a decent second shot. All of the fairway you can see short of the ridge at Ballyneal and the right bowl here can not be viewed as a true playing option since the blind shot off the uphill lie is so difficult.
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Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?
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Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?
Jerry, over the past few years I have seen the bunkers and fringes softened a bit. A very many had longish grass surrounding many bunkers. The result was that many balls were lost even though they were just off the fairway and next to a bunker. I am one of those who is I favor of softening the bunker fringes like they did on five. I read one suggestion here that it might be interesting to cut the fairways all the way to some of the bunkers, like number two. In that case, however, the rough around the bunkers helps because recovery from them is often easier that shots that find the bunkers.
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Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?
Jerry- I think Jim's comments are more about the lies you get when in the bunker, yours are about the grass surrounding them. After being in and around many of the bunkers on most of the holes I can say that I've never really felt an element of unfairness, just variation. For instance, many of the bunkers are surrounded or bordered by fairway and they have friendlier grass to hit from- while the many that border the native have uglier grass to play from. Not arbitrary, just different. One of the exceptions was the complex in the fairway at 5 and I think the recent modifications to these bunker edges will make them more akin to the centerline bunkers on 2. You can however, get some really unfortunate lies just outside some of the many bunkers cut into the hillsides (6, 9, 10, 12, 12, 14, 16 come to mind).
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Hmm, I've been following this thread and have to say I love the look of the course but can't help but think I'd be irritated by the grass around the hazards. It just always amazes me that one would go to the expensive of building a bunker and then not want it to play as big as its size allowed. If you want less balls in the sand, don't make the traps so large in the first place.
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Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?
Jerry - by luck of the draw I referred to shots that end up on the edges of the bunkers. If the ball stays in the maintained rough along the edges your fine, if the ball ends up in the bunker proper you are fine. The ball ending up in the transition area along the edges of the bunkers and/or in the unmaintained rough can result in anything from a playable shot to a hack and hope to a lost/ball unplayable. Sometimes all of these outcomes can be within a 3 to 5 foot circle. Visually it can be very impressive but drawing the short end of the stick a few times in a round can definitely try one's patience. I generally lean towards the opinion that recovery shots should be available to reasonable misses. Some of the areas around these bunkers do not lend themselves to allowing the better skilled golfer to use that skill in making a recovery shot.
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Hmm, I've been following this thread and have to say I love the look of the course but can't help but think I'd be irritated by the grass around the hazards. It just always amazes me that one would go to the expensive of building a bunker and then not want it to play as big as its size allowed. If you want less balls in the sand, don't make the traps so large in the first place.
Paul, when I joined Four Streams in 1999 we had a similar problem with bunkers. Smyers left "eyebrows" on many of the bunkers and members would lose balls in them. It only took a few years of complaining about them to see them disappear. I can understand the natural look around the bunkers. I like it, yet I also would like to see more shots end up in bunkers. They are difficult to play out of.
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Here's the 11th hole aerial,but I think Tommy's pics captured this hole pretty well.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/5wf40x.jpg)
The Yellow Line from the Ballyhack Tees is roughly a 230 yard tee shot, leaving ~85-90 yards in. I also sketched in Tommy's "Sultry Blonde" heroic shot for some fun.
The White Circle shows the Big Lick tees, but these only max out at 357. I also used the Red Circle to highlight a few exposed boulders that remain along the upper left fairway. These can actually stop an overheated hook or pull. I'm not sure if Jerry Kluger will remember it, but at the Inaugural George Cup, my ball landed roughly a foot inside one of these and my only option was to stand on the rock and use all my "ball below the feet" training to pop a shot onto the green.
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#11 - I guess it manages to get you to the 12th tee... Really an odd ball and awkward hole in my opinion. Most of the fairway is essentially useless, I can't imagine what a second shot up the hill from anything short of the right fairway bunker must be like. I think you have to get it up to the right side bowl that Tommy mentioned at the very least. Banging it just short of the front bunker leaves either a nasty little pitch over the bunker or some type of bump/chip off of the right front slope.
This hole has some strategic similarities to the 9th at Ballyneal in that you really need to aggressively get it up the hill to leave a decent second shot. All of the fairway you can see short of the ridge at Ballyneal and the right bowl here can not be viewed as a true playing option since the blind shot off the uphill lie is so difficult.
All right - I'm got to try and temper some of the angst / drama over these "blind, uphill shots."
What is a shot short of the fairway bunker like? It's just like any other golf shot - you need to make a good swing with the proper club. This one's just more exciting because you have to think a little to select a club. But you're still holding a short iron (maybe mid-iron), so I'm not so sure why this is such an issue for people. I don't usually hear people say "that downhill approach is too hard because it plays 1-2 clubs shorter than the yardage or that hole plays downwind, which makes most of the fairway unusable."
So, you're 115 out and you have to make a 130 yard swing. Is a flat lie with no elevation change from a 130 yard sprinkler head more exciting?
I played this from the Big Lick tees with Hickories and loved the 150 yard shot from near the bottom of the fairway. I had to hit the equivalent of the 175 yard club, but even that isn't asking too much on this hole, because there's a huge backstop / sideslope to the right of the green which effectively enlarges your target.
The hole is 322 yards, and the massive slopes of the fairway / blindness of the approach provide levels of intrigue beyond the simplified dimension of length. You're right - there really isn't a very simple 2nd shot on this hole (unless you can find Tommy's little patch of fairway and reach the green - like Andy Hughes). You have to consider the roll-out and trajectory of your tee shot beyond "I'll just hit my draw right down the middle."
It may be an odd, awkward hole - but that's what makes it an interesting, wonderful hole, in my opinion. You simply look at the scorecard distance and may dream of birdies, but the hole ends up being much more thought-provoking and challenging.
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Tommy: I played Four Streams right after it opened as I was an Avenel member and they wanted us to consider joining. The long grasses around the bunkers were certainly an issue and they were addressed. The matter I am addressing at Ballyhack is the inconsistency in the grasses around the bunkers - some long, some short. Also, I have felt that after being part of GCA for more than 10 years that the general consensus is that bunkers should be there for the ball to land in or roll in and not be prevented from doing so.
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#11 - I guess it manages to get you to the 12th tee... Really an odd ball and awkward hole in my opinion. Most of the fairway is essentially useless,
Jim:
All I can say is that you need to play the hole a few dozen more times.
Eleven closes a stretch of "gettable" holes that allow the player to recover from Ballyhack's difficult start. Holes 1-5 and the tee shot on #6 challenge the player on a variety of levels. Once the first shot on six is in play, however, the golf course allows the thinking player to hit wedge into five of six holes (6, 8, 10, 11, and 11). A smashed drive on 12 (under the proper wind conditions) can present another short approach, in spite of the posted yardage.
The eleventh hole challenges the player to decide: Do I hit driver as close to the green as possible? Do I lay back, having hit wedge a couple of times in the past hour? Angle is important; the right side presents a clearer approach, which a shot to the left side of the fairway runs hard left (and even back toward the player), often finishing in the rough. Distance AND line are important and, judged properly, can reward the player with a familiar yardage to a blind green.
In the match play context so prevalent at Ballyhack, the eleventh hole can tilt the scale. I often say that the first third of the round kicks you in the teeth, the middle third allows you back to your feet, and anything goes in the finishing third, depending on the wind. When it's howling, the eleventh can feel like a player's last chance to grab a hole. Things are wild and unpredictable down the stretch (in a very good way) in Windy Gap.
I have a feeling that opinions about #11 might be different if resources (including regulations) permitted construction of a nice walking bridge across the ravine.
Mostly, though, reflecting on the hole reminds me that Ballyhack is a golf course meant to be played for decades. It's just not possible to completely crack its code in less time than that.
WW
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Most first timers don't even realize they've played back-to-back par fives when they leave the tenth green.
That's an indicator of two high calibre holes that present entirely different challenges.
WW
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Jim: Another thought about #11. Have you seen the earlier routing the connected the 11th and 17th greens as a double putting surface? I had it at the George Cup this year (and it was, as I'm sure you recall, a Quiz question).
I wonder how that eleventh would have compared in your mind.
In any event, I look forward to playing the hole with you when you visit over the coming year.
WW
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Jim: Another thought about #11. Have you seen the earlier routing the connected the 11th and 17th greens as a double putting surface? I had it at the George Cup this year (and it was, as I'm sure you recall, a Quiz question). ....
WW
A question that I correctly answered (I might add). I wonder how much of that hill would have been removed to actually execute such a design.
The slope up to the 11th green does not seem that extreme in a relative sense after playing holes 1 & 5. This hole plays harder for me than it should. The irregular nature of the various lies makes aiming the approach shot a challenge. My memory of the green is that putting is not, in a relative sense, hard.
Previous posts pretty well sum up the hole .... drive up the right side, the short approach shot plays longer ... do not miss left!
In conversations with Lester, I believe he said that 11 was the hardest hole to construct.
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Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.
That last line is funny!!! But I'm out of the "Excessively Proud Defending Champion" persona now and happily handed that persona off to Tommy.
I am humbled by my demolition of the field. The George Cup is never far from my side.
I'd like to see some photographic evidence of the Cup's omnipresence. But I understand that, as a former pastor, you need to be wary of that Idolatry Commandment.
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Great thread am enjoying it. As an 18 HC I can say I didn't think the course was overtly hard, maybe because all the fun shots made me forget the pain. I'm also a fan of rolling greens with massive breaks and BH has that in spades. I think the par 5s are its strength, which is saying something.
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Great thread am enjoying it. As an 18 HC I can say I didn't think the course was overtly hard, maybe because all the fun shots made me forget the pain. I'm also a fan of rolling greens with massive breaks and BH has that in spades. I think the par 5s are its strength, which is saying something.
Matt -
Please keep adding your thoughts throughout. Many would be interested to hear the perspective of an 18 Handicap for this course.
What was your favorite Par 5?
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I think 11 suffers in the same way that Sandra Bullock suffers in the same group as Giselle Bundchen, Kate Upton and Sofia Vergara. There’s a lot to like about the hole but admittedly it would probably rank near the bottom if I had to rank all the par 4s.
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I think 11 suffers in the same way that Sandra Bullock suffers in the same group as Giselle Bundchen, Kate Upton and Sofia Vergara. There’s a lot to like about the hole but admittedly it would probably rank near the bottom if I had to rank all the par 4s.
Wade and Lester, obviously know the early history better than I do. It seems to me that former employee Van told me that initially eleven was considered to be a par three. I can see how that could have happened. Hopefully they can elaborate on that.
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I think 11 suffers in the same way that Sandra Bullock suffers in the same group as Giselle Bundchen, Kate Upton and Sofia Vergara. There’s a lot to like about the hole but admittedly it would probably rank near the bottom if I had to rank all the par 4s.
Wade and Lester, obviously know the early history better than I do. It seems to me that former employee Van told me that initially eleven was considered to be a par three. I can see how that could have happened. Hopefully they can elaborate on that.
Using make-believe design and construction skills- With the current greensite and tees ranging from 150 to 220 yards you could see how it might be a cool par three as long as it wasn't too uphill a shot. Almost a redan-like quality with the short right kickboard and slope of the green. Can't recall if the ridge to the right of 10 green could be used for tees, distance-wise- but I think it would a more compelling 3 than what it is currently. Of course probably a completely unrealistic option :)
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And as promised / threatened, more discussion on the course, and the statistics from the 2014 State Open...
#10. Might just be the best par 5 on the course. A big, wide, long landing area for a downhill tee shot. As the second shot generally plays fast and firm, IMO, it is the most tempting shot on the course. Do you play for a chaser through a speed slot of ample width, or lay back to a wedge to another decent sized target? Disaster lurks right and left if the player does not execute the shot.
#11. As Wade notes, this hole ends a run of holes that can be had. The landing area for the drive is ample enough, and yes, the right side is preferred, not only for the lie that tends to be more level, but the angle is much more down the green vs the shallow angle across you'll tend to have from the left. This hole has generated the most variety in opinions so far. More on that in a minute.
As I mentioned earlier, I have continued to dig through the state open data. One more item of note is that number 11 had the highest standard deviation (sigma) of all the holes on the course at 1.046 strokes. While what this means is open to discussion, I would submit that holes that have higher standard deviations will generally be considered more controversial due to the wider dispersion of the scores on the hole. A point that seems reflected in the comments so far.
10 had the 12th highest sigma, while 9 was third (0.9924 strokes). More on the par 5's when we get to #15.
Of special note is that 3 is the sigma outlier for the par 3's. It checks in at 6th highest with 0.9446 strokes. I think that for the 3rd hole, while we can state the facts for this tournament, we should gather more data relative to the tees that were played to be more careful when drawing conclusions. E.G. I think that tee box choice can have a greater effect on scores for the 3rd hole vs the 11th hole.
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Many guys who played in the state open never had played a practice round and teed it up cold. That is a pretty dumb thing to do at any course but at Ballyhack it is really inexcusable. As for number eleven, I think one guy made an eleven or twelve. It had to be a "Tin Cup" episode.
As I have mentioned before I play the course two different ways. One is to try and make a score. Ballyhack demands that you stay in the moment as much as any course I have played. The first time I played Pine Valley I shot 78 but was so mentally exhausted I needed a nap. Ballyhack requires that kind of concentration. The other way is to change around tees and just go for broke and play 18 different games. It is a ball. Golf is one of those games where you can have games within a game.
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I included a 12 on 11. It should also be noted that this hole had the highest absolute number of others (17) recorded in the tournament. 4 was second with 16.
An additional anomaly is that there are 2 more 'rounds' included on the front vs the back in the scores. 349 to 347. I'm going to guess that that will not materially affect the data.
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In the 2014 Virginia State Open, #11 was played from the back tee all three days. Both sides of the hole were marked with red paint, which makes the 12 scored by one competitor even more remarkable. This isn't the place to really get into it, but the near total lack of appreciation for the layout's elasticity by the tournament committee was a disappointment to say the least.
Typically, a field like that hits balls for an hour or two after a round. After play during the State Open, the range was a ghost town. Why? Players were absolutely exhausted (to Tommy's point). The mental tax of every shot was just too unfamiliar. Of course, we were playing a setup that yielded an 80+ scoring average for the first two days of the event.
WW
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Jonathan: I know at least one player (a former VA Open champion) withdrew after completing the front nine. He was on the twelfth hole when his back went out.
WW
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In the 2014 Virginia State Open, #11 was played from the back tee all three days. Both sides of the hole were marked with red paint, which makes the 12 scored by one competitor even more remarkable. This isn't the place to really get into it, but the near total appreciation for the layout's elasticity by the tournament committee was a disappointment to say the least.
WW
Wade: Do you mean lack of appreciation?
I noted the proximity of the red hazard line left of number 8. Literally 3 steps from the edge of the fairway. That couldn't have helped the scoring or pace of play.
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I noted the proximity of the red hazard line left of number 8. Literally 3 steps from the edge of the fairway. That couldn't have helped the scoring or pace of play.
Actually. I would have thought the opposite. That line was a gift to the players who bombed through the fairway and would have a very easy drop (vs. lost ball re-tee or unplayable lie). If you could find your ball, you didn't have to take the stroke - you just couldn't ground your club.
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Tommy -
That's stunning to hear. I couldn't imagine playing Ballyhack blind while caring about a score.
As for other scoring anomalies from the VA Open, perhaps Wade can enlighten us (if he recalls):
- Hole 4 - Played as the #10 hole in Rd 3 (vs. #1/#4 in Rds 1/2). Was the ease due to pin position (front left?) or wind conditions?
- Hole 5 - Played 2nd toughest in Rd 3 (vs. #12 in Rd 1). Was that the nasty upper right pin or the wind?
- Hole 11 - Fluctuated from 3rd toughest in Rd 2 to #14 in Rd 3. That's a remarkable change if the tees were the same. Perhaps it took guys 3 rounds to figure it out.
I think many don't realize how much more of a backstop the right side of the fairway is vs the left. The bunker may scare them, but any slice seems to stop quickly while hooks run out quite a bit. I imagine many were led into aiming more left than necessary.
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Jonathan: Yes! I meant "near total lack of appreciation." Thanks for catching that.
The hazard lines sped up play. They were everywhere (including just left of eight).
Kevin: I didn't play on the third day (cut to low 60) but a number of tees were moved up. The scoring average on the third day only reflects numbers posted by the guys who were playing really well. The first two days featured high pins across the property; in fact, the committee set up a high pin on #14 all three rounds!
WW
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#12 par four—462,427,400,367
I have to admit that twelve is not a favorite of mine. There are essentially two ways to hit the tee shot. Actually there are more than that. My buddy last week decided to slice his tee ball onto the 18th fairway. It was an interesting strategy to make triple. Other than that you can hit a tee ball to the widest part of the fairway that is about level with the green. The problem is that it is 190 yards or so from the green. The other way is to hit a tee ball down the right side of the fairway and let it roll down the hill, which leaves about a 100 yard shot to a blind green. I’d rather have the 190 yards. I know that seems odd but I tend to get closer to the pin from back there. The green angles a bit from front right to back left. The front right side of the green has an unpleasant little gathering pot bunker. It doesn’t get a lot of play, but when the pin is front right you are always aware of its presence. Not long ago I was short of the bunker and had a nasty little flop shot off a tight lie.
The best line for the tee shot is down the right side. A well hit shot will bound down the hill to about 100 yards. Hit it strong too far left and you have a downhill shot from some grizzly rough.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040628_zpsddff39de.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040628_zpsddff39de.jpg.html)
View looking back. Tee is on the left side of the picture. Seventeen green is in the distance.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020171_zpsec7d36f9.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020171_zpsec7d36f9.jpg.html)
Hit it a little left off the tee and you find this bunker. As bunkers go it is pretty playable.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020114_zps8174feba.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020114_zps8174feba.jpg.html)
Views of the hole from the right side.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020169_zpse0ff6cee.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020169_zpse0ff6cee.jpg.html)
Good view of how the hole sets up. I like to hit my tee ball to that little shelf before it drops off.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020174_zps0c49dfab.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020174_zps0c49dfab.jpg.html)
If you do hit it down the hill you have a flat lie.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020158_zps7003c864.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020158_zps7003c864.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020159_2_zpsb2541ebd.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020159_2_zpsb2541ebd.jpg.html)
View of the green from the left side of the fairway, about 190 out.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020113_zpsae23e415.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020113_zpsae23e415.jpg.html)
A little different angle.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040631_zpsb7481dec.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040631_zpsb7481dec.jpg.html)
If you do hit it down to the bottom of the fairway, this is your shot.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040633_zps706c1810.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040633_zps706c1810.jpg.html)
A gathering pot bunker on the front right of the green. Even when the ball does not land in the bunker it affects the shot to the green when the pin is up front.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040635_zps1a9cc27e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040635_zps1a9cc27e.jpg.html)
Looking back from up near the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020115_zpsc3c689a3.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020115_zpsc3c689a3.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040634_zps4aaf1618.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040634_zps4aaf1618.jpg.html)
Clubhouse from the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020168_zps9acf0bbf.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020168_zps9acf0bbf.jpg.html)
Grounds crew working near the cabins.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040632_zps1b57b8ac.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040632_zps1b57b8ac.jpg.html)
From behind the green. You can see the entire hole.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040636_zps708c1018.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040636_zps708c1018.jpg.html)
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Been too long. When I played, the clubhouse did not exist and I had forgotten this hole completely.
whooo.
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Twelve is my favorite par four on the golf course.
Picking a line from the tee is very difficult. Lester's expert use of the line of charm causes so many players to hit the ball left (since the pin is in full view from every teebox). From the tee, the green is 60 or 70 yards left of the best play.
A well-struck drive will find a speed slot, which leaves either a ~140 shot (fairly level with the green) or a ~100 yard shot (uphill to a semi- or fully-blind pin (depending location). The front right greenside bunker (or "the hemorrhoid," as I call it) provides the only frame of reference from the bottom section of the fairway. It's surrounded by short grass and collects any ball hit near it.
Like a few others (#4, #7, #16), the back of the twelfth green slopes away from the player. This makes a back pin very interesting.
The hole is very exposed and plays into the prevailing wind. It's the first of the "figure eight" holes on the back, which will require the player to deal with every conceivable wind direction over an hour of play.
WW
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I can appreciate how twelve provides distinctly different playing options. The variability of playability always provides room for second guessing and doubt in the players mind. Being committed to decisions on shots, pulling them off or not, adds substance to the round. I like that.
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Twelve is my favorite par four on the golf course.
WW
Wade, really interesting what folks like. I find the tee shot to be very awkward for me. I never seem to get comfortable with it. That's why I would rather just hit something that stays up top and hit a hybrid into the green. When the pin is up front, however, it is a more difficult shot to get close.
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Here is the aerial for #12:
(http://i59.tinypic.com/10s7uj8.jpg)
I think Tommy may have been oversimplifying the options, as I've played many shots from yardages between 100 or 190. All drives will kick to the left, but if you carry far enough, you'll get a forward projection before rolling leftward down the hill to the 100 yard range.
I love this hole, and I always have a soft spot for "over the rise" tee shots. This one is special, because as Wade noted, the landing area is blind, but the ultimate destination is not (similar to #4).
I've seen the fairway past the left bunker change several times over the years. My first visit, I played just over the edge of the bunkers and was in the fairway. The next time I played, I ended up in some heavy rough along the same line. The above aerial was from 2012, but I used a 2011 aerial to sketch in the fairway line (in red) that existed that season. From this past George Cup, I had the sense that there was a little more fairway than in prior years. Wade / Tommy - did you notice the same or is it just my imagination?
The last George Cup clearly demonstrated the variable impact of the wind. From the 400 yards tees, I hit a solid drive on Friday and left myself 100 yards and a wedge. On Sunday, I hit a better drive from the same tees, but ended up 150 out and had to try a knockdown 4-iron. You'll never be bored upon repeat plays at Ballyhack.
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Been too long. When I played, the clubhouse did not exist and I had forgotten this hole completely.
whooo.
I love you like a brother, but that last part stuns me. Next time we play a hole this special together, I may need to take your camera away for a few minutes.
But, you did get a nice picture of the tee shot:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Ballyhack-End%20of%20Day-7-18-2010-Album%201/IMG_4523.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/buffalogolfer/media/Ballyhack-End%20of%20Day-7-18-2010-Album%201/IMG_4523.jpg.html)
It also shows how Tommy's buddy could have found the 18th fairway. I've done the opposite (found 12 fairway from the 18th tee) and still wish I'd tried the heroic recovery over the cabins. But we'll analyze that later.
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I believe that Mr. Lynch was hopeful that this lost gem might one day be found. The "hand in the pocket before ball leaves tee" was never in more evidence than on the 11th at Ballyhack.
http://youtu.be/t4-XQua67gw
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Wade et al - I knew my wording re #11 would elicit a response and I am not surprised it got as much play as it did. I do not feel that the 11th is in any way a bad or inappropriate hole. I do think it is an awkward and, for me at least as a below average wedge player, a difficult hole. Lester himself evidently admitted that it was a difficult hole to create and if it fell naturally on the land that would not likely be the case. I think the double green option from the earlier routing would add more character but would not in and of itself change the basic fact that it is essentially a connector hole in my opinion. The 10th and 12th are awesome hols that make the 11th a fully acceptable part of the routing and a pretty good hole given the land. Of all the holes on the course though this is the one that appears, to my eye at least, to be the one most required to make the routing work as opposed to being built based on its own merits.
Jim: Another thought about #11. Have you seen the earlier routing the connected the 11th and 17th greens as a double putting surface? I had it at the George Cup this year (and it was, as I'm sure you recall, a Quiz question).
I wonder how that eleventh would have compared in your mind.
In any event, I look forward to playing the hole with you when you visit over the coming year.
WW
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Great thread am enjoying it. As an 18 HC I can say I didn't think the course was overtly hard, maybe because all the fun shots made me forget the pain. I'm also a fan of rolling greens with massive breaks and BH has that in spades. I think the par 5s are its strength, which is saying something.
I think you're on to something here. One of the reasons BH is so enjoyable is that some of its most difficult holes, like #4 and #12, are also the most fun to play. It's never a grind. #12 is a great hole--the birdie that Chris DeNigris and I made there in foursomes on Sunday is one of my favorite memories from the George Cup weekend.
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Kevin - I'd say #2 is my favorite par 5, I'd likely never have the same second shot depending where my oft wayward drive ended up. But I'd always WANT to go for it, thinking not much penalty for a miss, and playing blind over (or laying up short) of the Spectical bunker is always a treat.
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12 is an epic hole and an exceedingly difficult hole. But it is a fair hole. Big hitter, big advantage ... a lot of roll out on the drive. If I hit a reasonable drive (for me), the downhill approach shot from 180 or so is very very tough, but not impossible. The pot bunker must be avoided in order to save yourself from an 'X'. I have no idea how a 20 handicapper can play the hole with the difficult stances and that bunker. I do not remember ever playing to a front pin.
Like other holes at Ballyhack, the golfer has to take the hole on, there is no real safety play (holes 1,3,4,5 & approach shots on 9 & 11). See hole 14 coming up.
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I think the 12th hole is a great 4.5 par hole. A great drive and you can reach the green. A so so drive and then it becomes harder. There is not really a layup. If you lay up to the bottom of the hill, then it is a blind shot up the hill.
In the George Cup 2014, we had 210 yards into a two club wind with our best drive. I think we managed two bogeys in the group from there.
I hit a 3 wood out to the right and then was able to chip on. The best play is to land short of the green and then chip on. You have to avoid the pot bunker.
I like the tee shot and the view of the green from the fairway. The green is might be the flattest of the greens on the course. But it is 50 yards long or so.
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I have a love/hate relationship with 12- and for me this is the toughest 4 on the course. On a hole where the drive is so paramount in setting up a decent approach - to a tough green to hit from anywhere- it's an incredibly demanding tee shot for me. The fairway plays narrower than it really is and because of the fugly rough on the left side that Kevin mentioned (I seem to be there often)- and it leaves fewer reasonable 2nd shots than any other hole at BH. For me the ideal place to come in is the fairly narrow shelf just before the drop to the valley. The birdie that Tim mentioned a couple posts ago was only possible because he hit what I consider the perfect drive- finding a little flat section on the left-most part of the fairway shelf- leaving the best angle and an ideal 140 yards. But that's a tough place to find- his ball split the center of the fairway off the tee and just barely avoided the rough on the left. God forbid you try for the favored right side and overcook a fade and get hung up in the right hillside rough- hardly a prayer from there. I never thought I would think this, much less write it- but I love that hemorrhoid at the green. While as Tommy says it doesn't often come into play- it's always forefront in your mind.
Love it sometimes, hate it more frequently.
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Kevin, I don't think there is more fairway but the rough on the left is much more playable. The line I usually pick off the tee is the cart path in the distance. It leaves little room for error. I find it interesting that some feel the fairway on four is tight. It have not brought up the tightness on twelve. I find the tee shot on twelve much more difficult, that is why a lay back.
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Kevin - I'd say #2 is my favorite par 5, I'd likely never have the same second shot depending where my oft wayward drive ended up. But I'd always WANT to go for it, thinking not much penalty for a miss, and playing blind over (or laying up short) of the Spectical bunker is always a treat.
I probably should have made you pick among the other 3 to think a little. The 2nd at Ballyhack may be one of the best Par 5s I've played anywhere, so the other three really don't stand a chance in comparison.
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12 is an epic hole and an exceedingly difficult hole. But it is a fair hole. Big hitter, big advantage ... a lot of roll out on the drive. If I hit a reasonable drive (for me), the downhill approach shot from 180 or so is very very tough, but not impossible. The pot bunker must be avoided in order to save yourself from an 'X'. I have no idea how a 20 handicapper can play the hole with the difficult stances and that bunker. I do not remember ever playing to a front pin.
I'd like to hear Matt's impressions on this hole to address Carl's question. It seems like an 18 could find the fairway, and get somewhere short, left of the green. Even if you miss the fairway, the big dip in the holee means you can always get recovery shots in range (easily under 100). At that point, it all depends on your comfort level with an uphill pitch (or even a bump and run).
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Tim / Chris,
Given the wind conditions that Sunday morning, there's no diminishing either of your contributions to an alternate shot birdie. That's one you can tell the grandkids about. Even if the hole was playing straight downwind, that's impressive, yet alone into a 3 club wind.
Tommy,
I've never thought of this fairway as narrow, especially given the kickslope on the high right side (once you get past the 200 yard mark). But, that may be a function of length, as the landing area opens up a bit more the further you go.
Or, as you mentioned, the effective width can change quite a bit because of the uneven lies. For someone like you with a sweet, rhythmic swing, those lies can throw off your perfection. For a person who moves his body far too much, I often hit more solid shots off awkward lies, simply because I'm forced to still my body more. As a result, uneven lies don't set off my radar as much (unless I have a hybrid or 3 wood in hand).
The rough maintenance can affect this hole quite a bit. As Chris mentioned, the left rough can be nasty, but that has varied significantly. I found it to be very playable this last George Cup. On the right side, the rough just past the bunkers can drastically change your fortunes. In 2013, we had a well struck ball hit up in the right past the bunkers, but it stayed about 6 inches in the rough, leaving a 190 yard shot from a 20 degree downhill lie. If the rough had been a quarter inch shorter, that ball would have tumbled into the fairway and rolled at least 20-30 yards closer. If that same shot had been hit this year, it would have been in prime position.
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#12 is an epic hole. Thinning out the gunch on the right side makes the drive much more fun since you can challenge the right side to find the kick plate without risking a lost ball. The little pot short right of the green is my favorite bunker on the course :) . The shaping around the bunker and how it plays so much larger than it is. This is definitely a challenging hole if you get out of position and the pot really makes the hole for me special.
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#12 is an epic hole. the pot really makes the hole for me special.
Jim- this stunning admission should require Tommy to re-evaluate his generous gesture. Might I suggest a blind drawing of all of the 4-time GC participants, excluding any former Cup champions.
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Why do you think the goats stick around?
#vapotforall
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#12 is an epic hole. the pot really makes the hole for me special.
Jim- this stunning admission should require Tommy to re-evaluate his generous gesture. Might I suggest a blind drawing of all of the 4-time GC participants, excluding any former Cup champions.
Talk about being taken out of context... Sheesh ???
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The 12/18 look at Ballyhack reminds me in some ways of the 2nd and 5th tees at Merion. I recently asked Lester if he ever considered a shared teeing ground for the two holes.
Kevin, I don't think there is more fairway than before on the left side of twelve. I wonder if your angle was different (though the teeing grounds aren't overly wide).
WW
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#12 is an epic hole. the pot really makes the hole for me special.
Jim- this stunning admission should require Tommy to re-evaluate his generous gesture. Might I suggest a blind drawing of all of the 4-time GC participants, excluding any former Cup champions.
Maybe the pot on 12 helped Jim come up with the funniest joke prize, which put him in the Runner Up spot.
Chris - I see what you did there. Neither of us are allowed to skip a George Cup so we can maintain our exalted Perfect Attendance status.
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Kevin,
Funny you should mention hitting twelve fairway from 18....... I think it was the first or second George Cup I was playing with Aaron, and he did just that. We got to his ball and he grinned and said "The sad part of this is I know exactly where to hit it. Left corner of the roof of the second cabin." Sure enough, he did so and hit the green!
Jamey
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Kevin,
Funny you should mention hitting twelve fairway from 18....... I think it was the first or second George Cup I was playing with Aaron, and he did just that. We got to his ball and he grinned and said "The sad part of this is I know exactly where to hit it. Left corner of the roof of the second cabin." Sure enough, he did so and hit the green!
Jamey
Jamey -
I know exactly when it was. It was the Shamble at the first George Cup. I tried to convince my team (Wade, Andy Hughes, Chris DeNigris) that it was a better shot than the right rough (~190 out), but I was overruled.
When we got to the Clubhouse, we learned that Aaron's team tried the shot and Wade realized I wasn't completely insane.
"Sure, when the Pro suggests it, it's a smart play, but when I think of it, I get a pat on the head."
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Forgot to post a picture of the gathering pot bunker in the front right part of the green.
A gathering pot bunker on the front right of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040635_zps1a9cc27e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040635_zps1a9cc27e.jpg.html)
Even when the ball does not land in the bunker it affects the shot to the green when the pin is up front.
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Kevin - I'd say #2 is my favorite par 5, I'd likely never have the same second shot depending where my oft wayward drive ended up. But I'd always WANT to go for it, thinking not much penalty for a miss, and playing blind over (or laying up short) of the Spectical bunker is always a treat.
I probably should have made you pick among the other 3 to think a little. The 2nd at Ballyhack may be one of the best Par 5s I've played anywhere, so the other three really don't stand a chance in comparison.
Fair enough - I'd then go with 9, I like the drive and while the second doesn't have as much obvious interest I do like the green and the backstop if the pin is up.
10 didn't really resonate with me one way or the other.
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Gents:
Play 12 as a three-shot hole and you really can't make worse than 5. A quarter of the time, you'll have a legitimate putt at four.
Play it as a two-shotter and anything can happen.
Love it.
WW
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Wade, I think I have hit more bad second shots on 12 than any hole on the course. You would think the hole sets up nice for little baby draw from up top. When the pin is back I feel confident, but when it is up front I have a lot of trouble. I have to land the ball a little short of the green and let it release. I try to get greedy and the ball can go anywhere.
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My comments on 11. First, if not for the 11th, 10 would have never been possible. Whatever I had to do to get 10 built was worth starting the back nine on that landform. In the twenty or so variations of plans I created, the 10th made the "cut" ever time! I literally moved about two tablespoons of dirt to shape 10.
The 11th was never drawn as a par 3. Nor was it realistic to connect 11 and 17 greens (cart paths) because once I started the cut for 11 green, I realized I was pushing my luck. The green on 11 was my biggest concern because to get it the way I wanted it, I had to balance about a 20 foot cut. Note the high ground to the right of the green. I kept expecting to hit solid rock but never did. As an alternate plan, I told Vinny Giles that I would continue to move dirt until I got what I wanted, but, if I hit solid rock and could not finish the green, I would build the green over the top of the right fairway bunker and we could play the hole as par three.
I thought it would work and it did. I never considered number 11 as a "connector" hole, simply a good short par four.
Lester
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Gents:
Play 12 as a three-shot hole and you really can't make worse than 5. A quarter of the time, you'll have a legitimate putt at four.
Play it as a two-shotter and anything can happen.
Love it.
WW
Wade, from my own experience and observing others, is that the third shot is very hard because there are relatively few shots like that golfers experience in what is their typical round of golf elsewhere. Ballyhack, for me, has more a-typical, you can't practice them any where shots than any course I have ever played!!
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Carl:
You're right. There are shots all over the property that a player just doesn't see other places.
Still, two smart shots can put anybody on the upslope leading the green. A conservative play from there and two putts means you're walked to the thirteenth with a halve (or, a quarter of the time, a win).
WW
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Gents:
Play 12 as a three-shot hole and you really can't make worse than 5. A quarter of the time, you'll have a legitimate putt at four.
Play it as a two-shotter and anything can happen.
Love it.
WW
Wade- true, but you can almost say this about any longish difficult par 4. Two 7 irons and a wedge, 2 putts for bogey. Or hybrid, wedge wedge. But who's really going to not hit driver on 12? It's the bad places that many drives find there that dictates the big numbers. And that's due to a lack of effective width. Good, bad or indifferent- that's the design characteristic and that defines the hole.
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Chris: For me, the design characteristic that defines #12 is that the player's eye (and, often, alignment (and, often, swing)) is drawn so far from the proper line by the exposure of the pinflag from the teebox.
This is a prevailing theme at Ballyhack that I was going to wait to discuss, but: Where else can you literally see the pin (from the tee) on almost every hole? If the pin is left on eight, up on sixteen, and anywhere but hard right on eighteen, the player sees the pin on every hole before playing a shot. Eventually (and often on the twelfth tee), this wears the player down.
The visuals (and purely the visuals) on twelve cause some players to hit the ball sixty yards left of the proper line and some to hit is 60 yards right. It's downright wild.
WW
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#13 par three- 228,214,178,168,135
This hole has more options and more opportunities for fun than any of the par threes. It plays downhill to a double green it shares with 15. The green is not as wild as the third green but it does have a lot of slope and a little bowl. When the greens are running fast anything above the hole is destined to run past its mark. The green slopes left to right and back to front. When the pin is near the bowl putting becomes an exercise in imagination. I have had some putts break eight to ten feet. Some of the putts you just have to feel. You cannot just pick a spot; you have to envision the putt. If the shot from the tee is stimulating putting becomes exciting.
Adding to the excitement are the different angles. There are tees that are straight toward the hole and tees that come in from the left. I find the most joy in playing the hole all the way back from both angles.
The tees that are normally played give you this look.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020195_zps787f3c9d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020195_zps787f3c9d.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040637_2_zpse9d7bd09.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040637_2_zpse9d7bd09.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020117_zpsfe9ad921.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020117_zpsfe9ad921.jpg.html)
This is the view from the left side. I find this angle a little more demanding. I tend to be above the hole more because I defend against the bunkers on the right. There, however, a lot of room on this huge green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020195_zps787f3c9d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020195_zps787f3c9d.jpg.html)
From this angle and this pin placement, three is a good score.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040638_2_2_zps4e50fa20.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040638_2_2_zps4e50fa20.jpg.html)
Looking back.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040639_zpsa3942172.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040639_zpsa3942172.jpg.html)
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Wade, I hadn't noticed that the pin is visible from every tee. That is really interesting. I don't think I have ever seen that before.
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Wade, I hadn't noticed that the pin is visible from every tee. That is really interesting. I don't think I have ever seen that before.
Tommy- you might not be able to see them all but Wade probably can.
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On Tough Day do they swap pins and put 13 where 15 should go, and verse vica?
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I butchered this hole but it was among my favorites during George Cup weekend. The combination of elevation, wind and green size made club selection very challenging, in my opinion. It was equally challenging as some of the approaches on the front. I air mailed the green once and came up short the next day. But it's so much fun to watch a well struck ball stay in the air for such a long time.
The hole from the back, though shorter than the 3rd, is far more visually intimidating.
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Wade, I hadn't noticed that the pin is visible from every tee. That is really interesting. I don't think I have ever seen that before.
Tommy- you might not be able to see them all but Wade probably can.
Touche'
Guess I'm too old to grow anymore.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/unnamed_zps4be0d2af.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/unnamed_zps4be0d2af.jpg.html)
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the back pin on what I would call a shelf is a tough location. Made a miracle 2 putt on Sunday of the George Cup weekend. Club is selection is more than hard, it is a pure spin of the roulette wheel. As Ballyhack is, for me, about playing a course that is 100% unique, this is drop shot par 3 is the longest and has the most elevation change of any par 3 I have played anywhere.
Informal poll: is the hole the longest and most downhill par 3 you have ever played?
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(Tommy, thanks for all the pictures/commentary. I can't believe how much I miss the place.)
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(Tommy, thanks for all the pictures/commentary. I can't believe how much I miss the place.)
I feel the same way when I don't get there for a few weeks. When this cold snap ends I will hop down for a couple of days. I'm not sure what it is that gets in your blood. Much of t is the quality of the course, much is the stunning quality of the beauty, and some is the staff who makes everyone feel welcome and tends to anything we could want. It is the entire experience. It is not a place for trunk slammers who play and leave.
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On Tough Day do they swap pins and put 13 where 15 should go, and verse vica?
I have only played one tough day and they did not reverse the pins. Door fun, however, I have reversed them during regular play. The course is generally uncrowded so it didn't interfere with anyone.
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On Tough Day do they swap pins and put 13 where 15 should go, and verse vica?
I have only played one tough day and they did not reverse the pins. Door fun, however, I have reversed them during regular play. The course is generally uncrowded so it didn't interfere with anyone.
Everyday is Tough Day at the Hack :) I've reversed them unintentionally.
Looking at your first pic of 13 it struck me that it would be really cool to make the front left fairway section green- and have a triple green. Then you could do a Dismal White and choose whatever pin you want to play to :)
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Much as it looks like a good hole, you mention the various option but it looks to me as if you fly it to the green or else.
Could anyone expand on the options available?
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I'm hoping to get back into this thread, but have spent the day tunneling out from out Lake Effect Snow blast (~30 inches so far w no slow down in sight). Now in a power outage.
If you've ever wondered how lake effect snowstorms work, this pic of Downtown Buffalo may help.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2445cvd.jpg)
Unfortunately, my home is in the upper left part of this picture, and not in the part of Buffalo that is being spared.
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Much as it looks like a good hole, you mention the various option but it looks to me as if you fly it to the green or else.
Could anyone expand on the options available?
Paul, there is a bail out area left and short of the green.
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The options are the various tee boxes- the hole plays significantly different from each one.
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#12. I'm happy with 5. Any way I can get it. It's a very solid hole. You earn your score at 5 or below. If you try and do something you're incapable of, more than likely you'll be punished. Severely.
#13. I haven't figured out the preferred play on this hole. Both times in the George Cup that I've played it, our team had quite a bunker shot from 40 yards away from the green. I see Tommy's point about the bail out area left, and will have to think about it some more.
Now for some more statistical analysis. #12 had the 5th lowest standard deviation with 13 the 17th. I think what that tells us is that while 12 played the 3rd hardest - it was fairly uniformly hard for everyone. No wide dispersal pattern like we saw at 11. Likewise, the tight grouping of the scores at the 13th suggests that play was much more uniform on the hole.
While we're on these two holes, let's go ahead and compare the data between 3 and 13 and 11 and 12.
#3 was the 9th hardest, 13 the 12th. The average stroke difference was .1962 shots, with sigma = .1869
#11 was the 6th hardest, 12 the 3rd. The average stroke difference was .0518 shots with sigma = .2409!!
Short story: Lots more different ways that folks played 11 vs 12 than 3 vs 13 for two similarly difficult holes. Which I think has been reflected in the commentary we've seen so far.
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I'm hoping to get back into this thread, but have spent the day tunneling out from out Lake Effect Snow blast (~30 inches so far w no slow down in sight). Now in a power outage.
If you've ever wondered how lake effect snowstorms work, this pic of Downtown Buffalo may help.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2445cvd.jpg)
Unfortunately, my home is in the upper left part of this picture, and not in the part of Buffalo that is being spared.
Wow Kevin. That is some serious snow. Winter comes early this year. Stay warm and don't forget to release fully when you shovel the snow.
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Wow Kevin. That is some serious snow. Winter comes early this year. Stay warm and don't forget to release fully when you shovel the snow.
I'm still confident I'll be playing again in December. Of course, that will be after the massive flooding expected next week as this melts.
The final tally for the past 36 hours was ~48 inches in my town, with a few more feet forecast for tomorrow. However, I'm feeling fortunate because some neighbors ~7-8 miles north were hit with 5.5 - 6 feet. Also, was without power for only 5 hours, so really nothing horrific.
Found another pic which illustrated the difference a few miles can make in terms of snowfall:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/20626qe.jpg)
And one final shot of the city skyline:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2m2gtvb.jpg)
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Back to the thread at hand. Here's the 13th hole aerial:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2qmknbp.jpg)
Much as it looks like a good hole, you mention the various option but it looks to me as if you fly it to the green or else.
Could anyone expand on the options available?
Besides the options from Chris & Tommy, a few were discovered by accident during the last George Cup.
- If you push a hybrid roughly 15 yards right of your intended line, you can hit on the side of the monster swale and have it kick all the way back left to the pin (orange line).
- Or as Jonathan Mallard did, you can block your shot to within 10 feet of the 15th pin, 3 putt back to the 13th, and win the hole when your opponent brain cramps and 4 putts from 30 feet under the hole.
While Tommy said this green wasn't as wild as #3, it is certainly more frightening to me. There are a few nasty pins which don't look like anything special at all from the tee.
I have always enjoyed this hole, and as others have alluded, it's so much fun to watch a well struck ball hang forever.
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Club is selection is more than hard, it is a pure spin of the roulette wheel. As Ballyhack is, for me, about playing a course that is 100% unique, this is drop shot par 3 is the longest and has the most elevation change of any par 3 I have played anywhere.
Informal poll: is the hole the longest and most downhill par 3 you have ever played?
Carl,
To be honest, I'd never really thought of this as a "drop shot" hole, simply because of the size of the target. When I think of "drop-shot" holes, I usually envision a scenario where missing long or short is a significant risk because of a shallower depth (requiring more precision in distance control).
Depending on which sets of tees you use, you have anywhere from 35 to 50 yards of depth to play with, so if you aim for the middle of the green, you still have a decent amount of room for error (in terms of distance control). However, given how difficult it is to 2 putt from above the hole, maybe I should start thinking of it more in terms of a precision hole. From the 178 and less tees, I'll think precision, but from anywhere over 200, I'm just thinking on the green.
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As for your informal poll, Ballyhack's drop is roughly 35 feet from the middle 4 tees (168-215).
However, that wouldn't come close to the biggest drop shot of length.
Mill Creek (near Rochester) is situated on a drumlin and features a 180-200 yard par 3 with ~80 feet of drop. This is right after a 140 yard hole that rises ~55 feet. But that's still not the winner. Holiday Valley is a part time golf-course, part time ski resort in Ellicottville (about 40 miles S of Buffalo).
The 15th is a 200 yard hole with a 102 foot drop (1675 to 1573 per Google Earth). That one is much tougher than Ballyhack, because the slope of the hill obscures most of the green, which is only a 26 yard circle to begin with.
That isn't even the most severe elevation change on the course:
The 13th is a 446 yard par four which falls from 1,895 to 1,690 feet (205 drop). To give you perspective, the 15th at Ballyhack drops roughly 110 feet over the entire hole (from the uppermost Big Lick tees).
The 17th is a 459 yard Par 5 which is virtually unreachable in 2, as it climbs from 1,585 feet to 1,724 feet (+139 feet). Of course, the 429 yard 18th tumbles back from 1,700 feet to 1,585 feet.
If you're ever in the Western New York region, I'll take you around to a few of my formative courses, and you'll understand why elevation change like that found at Ballyhack isn't all that unusual for me.
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#14 408, 361, 361, 306, 271
This is one of my favorite holes, albeit one of the stoutest holes on the course. Every shot is fraught with danger. Any shot is not resolutely struck it will find misfortune. When I go to Ballyhack I am usually there for two or three days and play at least 36 a day. Some trips I will find great success on fourteen and sometimes it will be a card wrecker. I make very few birdies because most pin placements are tough to get near and the second shot is very demanding. Yard for yard it is one of the most challenging holes at Ballyhack.
It begins with the tee shot. It is a bite off as much as you dare kind of shot. When I play alone I will ball hawk long and left in the brier patch for golf balls. I never come away disappointed. ProV1s abound. A ball that hooks too much will find Br’er Rabbit's hide away.
Like many holes the various tees give you a different angle.
I have played with a few guys who have gone for the fairway just short of the green with the tee shot. I guess from the left tee at 361 it has to be a 260-280 yard carry.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020118_zps50d535e2.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020118_zps50d535e2.jpg.html)
Most mortals aim at the cart path. From there it is about 125-140 into a very sloping two level green. This is the view from the right side tees.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040640_zps0c9fae58.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040640_zps0c9fae58.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040641_zps3a686044.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040641_zps3a686044.jpg.html)
The left side gives you a little different look. The fairway is not as angled and is more straight away. It is little easier to find the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040642_zps6a3f4ca5.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040642_zps6a3f4ca5.jpg.html)
This view details the lay of the land from the second shot to the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040642_2_zps9c352256.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040642_2_zps9c352256.jpg.html)
This is the view of the second shot. It must carry a long chasm and like the first hole has a false front. This pin is one the second level. It is a tough pin to find and most shots end up either long or on the first level.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/IMG_4568jpgoriginal_zps86f2cdc5.jpeg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/IMG_4568jpgoriginal_zps86f2cdc5.jpeg.html)
This is a good view of the false front. Anything that is short of the ball on the green will roll twenty yards.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/IMG_4568jpgoriginal_2_zps38bd1ef6.jpeg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/IMG_4568jpgoriginal_2_zps38bd1ef6.jpeg.html)
This is a good view of the false front. Anything that is short of the ball on the green will roll twenty yards.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020121_zpse8673b5d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020121_zpse8673b5d.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020122_zps0fb670b9.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020122_zps0fb670b9.jpg.html)
This might be the toughest pin on the entire golf course.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040643_zpsaa0c9cf1.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040643_zpsaa0c9cf1.jpg.html)
From the green looking back toward the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020120_zpsc9ed584a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020120_zpsc9ed584a.jpg.html)
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The corner of the course where 13, 14, and 15 reside is a really good stretch of golf.
#13: Very challenging hole. While the green might not have as much movement as the 3rd in terms of ridges and bowls I always feel that the green leaves very difficult putts due to the severity of the more general back to front slope. I would be interested to know if there is more slope in the pinned areas than on other holes. it certainly felt that way to me. Any misses that end up short right are big trouble and a potential lost ball.
#14: Probably the toughest green on the course as far as getting the ball to stop in the right area. Getting out of position on this hole can easily lead to blow-ups. The drive is fairly straightforward as long as you don't get greedy and just play the right distance either at or just right of the cart path that Tommy pointed out. It's at that point that the fun begins. When the pin is in the front bowl you have a very challenging shot knowing that anything on the top shelf leaves a putt that could easily end up down in front of the green, anything that spins too much or comes up a little short will end up down in front of the green, and anything that rolls too far up the back stop can very well pick up too much speed as it rolls back and once again end up down in front of the green. The fringe between the right of the green and the gunch offers some options and I look forward to trying to figure out this approach shot some more. Back pins leave a more straightforward approach and more basic recovery shots.
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13, for me, is just an average mid-length par 3. I don't see the "options" that some are referencing. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as I rarely see meaningful options on a par 3. Most of them ask the player to hit a target, and 13 is no different. As others have mentioned, it's a fun hole on which to watch a well-struck shot hang in the air. To me, though, it's no different than most drop-shot par 3s in that regard. I enjoy watching a ball hit from a high elevation hang in the air in virtually any context, and that makes 13 plenty of fun for me. I just don't think it's particularly special - it's just a mid-length drop-shot hole for me.
What I find more exciting about it is how it fits into the back nine. Ballyhack might not be a pleasant walking course, but that doesn't mean the routing isn't excellent. The double-figure-8 of the back nine is pretty brilliant in the way it follows the ridge and plateau that the entire side plays across and around. In that context, 13 is a crucial hole to not only provide a fun tee shot, but also to set up the way the routing doubles back to the excellent 14th and 15th.
14 is a wonderful hole that reminds me a bit of an uphill version of the 7th at Rustic Canyon, although I think it works quite a bit better. The false front for me is what makes the hole really work, as the "cape-style" tee shot really needs to be judged well to put the ball at a comfortable yardage to avoid coming up just short or overspinning the approach. It's also a real joy to get to the top of the hill and stand on that green, taking in the views of the surrounding mountains. It might be the most scenic spot on the course.
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This course pictorally appears even better than Pete Dye Club regarding elevation change and options.The greenside bunkering is wonderfully balanced and masterfully shaped.Course seems Great not just good.
Am I missing its short comings?
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This course pictorally appears even better than Pete Dye Club regarding elevation change and options.The greenside bunkering is wonderfully balanced and masterfully shaped.Course seems Great not just good.
Am I missing its short comings?
there are just a large number of do or die shots on the course, with no possible recovery
....... hitting the 14th green is argueably the most conspicuous example, you can play the hole pretty well and still make a 7.
After the approach shot to 14, the course's scary nature of it's shot making diminishes.
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I've played Ballyhack and Pete Dye one time each. I don't know if Ballyhack has a hole that equals the 2nd at Pete Dye, which I consider one of the most beautiful and evocative holes I've ever played. I do know that I would flip a coin if offered the opportunity to play just one of them for the rest of my life, or even once. They are certainly in that upper echelon of fantastic property and courses.
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This course pictorally appears even better than Pete Dye Club regarding elevation change and options.The greenside bunkering is wonderfully balanced and masterfully shaped.Course seems Great not just good.
Am I missing its short comings?
there are just a large number of do or die shots on the course, with no possible recovery
....... hitting the 14th green is argueably the most conspicuous example, you can play the hole pretty well and still make a 7.
After the approach shot to 14, the course's scary nature of it's shot making diminishes.
Until you get to 15 ;D and then 16 ;D ;D
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The key to Ballyhack is to play within yourself. The penalty for trying to do things of which you are incapable is less than death but more than menacing. Fourteen is a prime example. I had a friend there, now a couple of weeks ago, who was terrified of the drive, even from the up tee. I had him aim way right of the cart path and then lay up in front of the gully. From there he hit a nine iron and made bogey. Ballyhack makes you play within your limits. That is why Ballyhack is not only a test of skill, it is a test of intestinal fortitude and course management. The combination of those three elements is what makes the course so wonderful.
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This course pictorally appears even better than Pete Dye Club regarding elevation change and options.The greenside bunkering is wonderfully balanced and masterfully shaped.Course seems Great not just good.
Am I missing its short comings?
Tim -
I think you're right on in your assessment.
Ron said it's a coin flip in his opinion (which is pretty high praise given the stature of PDGC), but I don't think it's even close (and I really enjoyed PDGC). PDGC has many spectacular holes, but the lack of a good short par 3 or variety in the par 3 distances is a weakness. The 15th is a par 5 I've seen dozens of times, and the 11th didn't do much for me. And while PDGC has plenty of elevation change and topography, it doesn't hold a candle to the land and routing at Ballyhack (IMO). I still have "fuzzy" memories of certain holes at PDGC, while Ballyhack was emblazoned in my memory from the first play.
The reason that Ballyhack doesn't get the universal love has been referenced throughout the thread:
- It's possibly walkable, but really intended for carts (a hard issue for some people to get past).
- There is a punitive edge and much more possibility for lost balls, which can disrupt one's perception of the design
- If you have any semblance of a pencil & scorecard mentality, BH can get in your head in a hurry
If you ever get the chance, make the trip to Roanoke. These pictures are very good, but you can't fully appreciate the aura of Ballyhack until you're there.
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Tim, it's an interesting comparison and obviously people come out on both sides. I played both on the same trip earlier this year.
Ballyhack is certainly more naturally presented. I vastly prefer the club's vibe to the heavily corporate feel at Pete Dye GC, and the golf course probably has better scenery as well. The aesthetic style is nicely realized with excellent shaping throughout.
Pete Dye GC is a far easier walk despite being a little long and, I think, more playable. While both courses are extremely tough to post a score on, Pete Dye is a bit more accommodating of misses and I think, on balance, that you'd lose fewer balls there. Pete Dye’s visual presentation is quite different from Ballyhack’s, but equally satisfying for me.
I prefer Pete Dye GC of the two by a reasonable margin, but that's no insult to Ballyhack. Pete Dye just blew me away - I thought it was clearly one of the best five modern courses I've played. Most of Ballyhack's shortcomings, for me, are directly related to its property. It gets very severe in spots, is a very difficult walk, and has a few holes that I find are just a bit handcuffed by the fact that they're routed across land that wasn't necessarily an intuitive site for golf. Ballyhack probably gets more out of its property, but it's a tough piece of land. Pete Dye GC is on what I would call a very good property for golf and I think that's the biggest difference between the two.
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Concerning PDGC, click here and click the proper numbers below: https://www.pacificlinks.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=358036&ssid=265830&vnf=1
Really good par five is the either the one we couldn't really play because the guy was trenching the bunker (#5) or the #8.
Exalted short par four is #6, as is #12.
Good short par three is hole #7 from Dye, Middle or Front tee. Since it plays downhill, take 10 yards off each. No need to play that hole from those other distances.
I will say that, the more I think about it, PDGC has holes we've seen before, probably because we've seen so much Pete Dye. The 4th is a throwaway, penal par three, as is the 13th a yawner. 15 doesn't do much for me, as there is no miss right (which is like having trees all the way down that side.) The three creek holes (2, 10 and 18) are marvelous, though.
There isn't a throwaway hole in my mind at BH, other than perhaps the 7th. If I could alter one thing at BH, I'd make 17 a mid-range par three with a deep (not wide) green and #7 a Merion-13th-style, wee pitch par three.
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The 14th hole is a connector hole. It is needed to set up the 15th hole and the double green with 13.
I don't like the hole. The tee shot is awkward in that you need to need to carry the creek to have a short iron into the green.
The green is a duplicate of the ninth green with a tier. There is no way to keep the ball on the green if you go long.
I would have made it a drivable par 4 with the green at the end of the fairway. Yes, it would take a 260 yard drive to reach the green, but it would be a better hole.
I wonder how this hole scored in the VA Open. I bet they did not have any problem with it. But the rest of us do not hit elevated greens very well.
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Here's the 14th Aerial:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2cp6cyt.jpg)
I drew in the drives from the Ballyhack and Ridge tees, taking dead aim at the cart path. It's 250 to the base of the path from the BH tees, and 230 from the left Ridge tees, so Driver may not be the play for longer hitters. Anything hit long through the fairway will be a terribly difficult shot, in my experience.
I also sketched in the alternate route used by Scott Weersing's team for the George Cup Shamble (left around 130 in).
I tried to draw in the false front fall line (Red) and the perimeter of the lower green tier (black). I'll have a separate post regarding the green.
I loved this hole from the first time I saw it. The angled drive is so much fun to visualize, and can accommodate anything from the high fade to the sweeping hook. The carry isn't onerous at all. Even from the tips, if you aim at the cart path, it's 185 to clear the creek and 220 to the fairway. But, from those tees, that's really an aggressive line and you could find the fairway along a moderately conservative line at only 180 yards.
As seems to be the theme at Ballyhack, a simple change in tees really alters the characteristics of your drive (beyond simply length). Your line changes, and the concern of running out of fairway is a bigger concern. You rarely say "it's the same shot as before, just leaving a longer approach."
Until I looked at Google Earth, I did not fully appreciate the elevation change on the approach. If I'd had to guess, I would have assumed the approach at #5 was more uphill, but the 14th is actually a greater elevation change. I love the visual from the fairway, and I can't imagine a greater sense of accomplishment than knocking one close on this green.
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Concerning PDGC, click here and click the proper numbers below: https://www.pacificlinks.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=358036&ssid=265830&vnf=1
Really good par five is the either the one we couldn't really play because the guy was trenching the bunker (#5) or the #8.
Exalted short par four is #6, as is #12.
Good short par three is hole #7 from Dye, Middle or Front tee. Since it plays downhill, take 10 yards off each. No need to play that hole from those other distances.
I will say that, the more I think about it, PDGC has holes we've seen before, probably because we've seen so much Pete Dye. The 4th is a throwaway, penal par three, as is the 13th a yawner. 15 doesn't do much for me, as there is no miss right (which is like having trees all the way down that side.) The three creek holes (2, 10 and 18) are marvelous, though.
There isn't a throwaway hole in my mind at BH, other than perhaps the 7th. If I could alter one thing at BH, I'd make 17 a mid-range par three with a deep (not wide) green and #7 a Merion-13th-style, wee pitch par three.
I think you just illustrated my point - that second paragraph is quite a bit of qualification and "except fors" for a course that rates as highly as PDGC does. And it's not that I don't think it still deserves its position - I really enjoyed PDGC and appreciate the great holes you mentioned. But that's why I think Ballyhack should at least be in the same league as PDGC, and BH's greater variety, better routing and greater sense of fun / adventure is where I feel it leaves PDGC behind (or simply puts it into even more elite company).
As for Ballyhack's 7th, I think everyone tended to agree that it seemed different compared to the dramatic holes surrounding it, but has its subtle features that I'll admit I didn't appreciate upon my first visit. I'm not sure why you'd make 7 the wee par three since you already have that at 17 (with the cool segmented green - which we'll get to soon). But I hope you'll add in your thoughts when we get to that hole.
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Tim, it's an interesting comparison and obviously people come out on both sides. I played both on the same trip earlier this year.
Ballyhack is certainly more naturally presented. I vastly prefer the club's vibe to the heavily corporate feel at Pete Dye GC, and the golf course probably has better scenery as well. The aesthetic style is nicely realized with excellent shaping throughout.
Pete Dye GC is a far easier walk despite being a little long and, I think, more playable. While both courses are extremely tough to post a score on, Pete Dye is a bit more accommodating of misses and I think, on balance, that you'd lose fewer balls there. Pete Dye’s visual presentation is quite different from Ballyhack’s, but equally satisfying for me.
I prefer Pete Dye GC of the two by a reasonable margin, but that's no insult to Ballyhack. Pete Dye just blew me away - I thought it was clearly one of the best five modern courses I've played. Most of Ballyhack's shortcomings, for me, are directly related to its property. It gets very severe in spots, is a very difficult walk, and has a few holes that I find are just a bit handcuffed by the fact that they're routed across land that wasn't necessarily an intuitive site for golf. Ballyhack probably gets more out of its property, but it's a tough piece of land. Pete Dye GC is on what I would call a very good property for golf and I think that's the biggest difference between the two.
Jason -
You just illustrated perfectly why qualitative reviews are so much more valuable than numerical or comparative rankings. If I know the basis for your judgment, I can assess whether that factor is as important for me as it is for you (without either of us being right or wrong).
The severity of the land is a partial drawback for you. For me, that means adventure, fun and memorability. Neither of us is wrong, but I get where you're coming from.
Same for the difficult walk. While I enjoy walking as well, I appreciate the sacrifice mandated by the severity of the land and look past it when comparing the two. I'll also admit I didn't pay much attention to the walkability of PDGC, as it was the last round of a long trip, and was played in a cart.
Out of curiosity, how did you find the relative conditioning of the two on the same trip? Ballyhack has always played firm & fast, even when I've played it a day after torrential downpours. Just given the corporate vibe you mentioned about PDGC (and it's quite a juxtaposition vs BH), I wonder if they'd be more susceptible to the "Augusta Syndrome."
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Catching up a little bit...
Surprised that there wasn't much discussion of the way the back portion of the 11th green falls away. Just another element that keeps one from making an easy par, especially the first time around.
Regarding the 13th, which I've only seen twice, I think my two experiences demonstrate the variety of the hole. From the 178 tees, with wind hurting a little and coming from the left, I was able to hit a 7-iron to 15 feet for a routine par. It felt significantly downhill, but at the same time I think the green being elevated so far above the creek makes it feel less dramatically downhill.
During the Shamble portion of the George Cup, playing from the 205 tees into the wind, my Dad hit a 3-wood into the bailout area short left and we played from there. I thought I thinned my pitch, but it kept rolling back down the slope and toward the hole. It seems to me the slopes long and right can serve as an excellent backstop or safety net for those erring on the side of too much club. So there you have plenty of options for a par 3.
110 yards separate the 228 tee and the 168 tee, according to my Google Earth research. That's a 30-degree difference in the angle of approach. And the double green is 85 yards wide.
By the way, Kevin, you shouldn't rely on the Google Earth elevation measures too much. I was curious how some of the elevation changes at Yale compare with Ballyhack and found out that Google thinks the seventh hole at Yale is downhill [it's not] and barely registers the mountain [40-50 feet?] in the middle of the 18th fairway there. [Kevin, not trying to single you out, I use the software regularly and didn't realize the problem until now. Hope all is well in Buffalo.]
I think the 14th is a fun hole. From the Ridge tees, my hybrid was plenty to reach the fairway on the cartpath line. Interesting story, which several of you witnessed: as Jim alludes, it's kind of a green with two false fronts. On the Saturday of the George Cup, my approach shot landed at the red dot in Tommy's photo, below. I thought it was a good shot, unable to see which level it landed on. After I'd replaced my divot and everything, a full ten seconds later, we all saw the ball rolling back down the hill, 10 yards short of the green. Mr. DeNigris dropped a ball from waist high on that spot, and it did the exact same thing. I ended up getting up and down, but still... you can never let your guard down.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S8IPiFiMFC8/VG6zJC2cMuI/AAAAAAAAJPc/qM47rm7U-tE/s400/BH_14.jpg)
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it's kind of a green with two false fronts. On the Saturday of the George Cup, my approach shot landed at the red dot in Tommy's photo, below. I thought it was a good shot, unable to see which level it landed on. After I'd replaced my divot and everything, a full ten seconds later, we all saw the ball rolling back down the hill, 10 yards short of the green. Mr. DeNigris dropped a ball from waist high on that spot, and it did the exact same thing. I ended up getting up and down, but still... you can never let your guard down.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S8IPiFiMFC8/VG6zJC2cMuI/AAAAAAAAJPc/qM47rm7U-tE/s400/BH_14.jpg)
Boy, that would disqualify a green as proper in my book right quick!! You get the ball to the 50 yard line and it slides past the goal post? Sheeeeee-ittttttt. Seriously, that's bogus and unless you spin it like an angry tour pro, uncalled for.
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Lynch: "I think you just illustrated my point - that second paragraph is quite a bit of qualification and "except fors" for a course that rates as highly as PDGC does. And it's not that I don't think it still deserves its position - I really enjoyed PDGC and appreciate the great holes you mentioned. But that's why I think Ballyhack should at least be in the same league as PDGC, and BH's greater variety, better routing and greater sense of fun / adventure is where I feel it leaves PDGC behind (or simply puts it into even more elite company)."
The second paragraph is an explanation, not a qualification. There isn't a single "except for" in it, so I don't understand THAT reference.
The 5th and 8th are top-shelf par fives. The 6th and 12th are top-shelf short fours. The 7th should play as a short three and it can by throwing out the over-the-mine-shaft tee decks.
If Lester had as much exposure as Pete Dye has had, we might have a different thread here. I suspect that Lester is still hungry and, in a waning market, saw Ballyhack as his chance to really crash through in a different way from Kinloch. Being able to build an ANGC-type course AND a rustic/natural course indicates he is a man of diversity.
I would also love to transpose all the Ballove to a like group of kindred souls that adore PDGC and read their break-down thread.
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Ballyhack is certainly more naturally presented. I vastly prefer the club's vibe to the heavily corporate feel at Pete Dye GC, and the golf course probably has better scenery as well. The aesthetic style is nicely realized with excellent shaping throughout.
Pete Dye GC is a far easier walk despite being a little long and, I think, more playable. While both courses are extremely tough to post a score on, Pete Dye is a bit more accommodating of misses and I think, on balance, that you'd lose fewer balls there. Pete Dye’s visual presentation is quite different from Ballyhack’s, but equally satisfying for me.
I prefer Pete Dye GC of the two by a reasonable margin, but that's no insult to Ballyhack. Pete Dye just blew me away - I thought it was clearly one of the best five modern courses I've played. Most of Ballyhack's shortcomings, for me, are directly related to its property. It gets very severe in spots, is a very difficult walk, and has a few holes that I find are just a bit handcuffed by the fact that they're routed across land that wasn't necessarily an intuitive site for golf. Ballyhack probably gets more out of its property, but it's a tough piece of land. Pete Dye GC is on what I would call a very good property for golf and I think that's the biggest difference between the two.
I don't understand the bit about being an intuitive site for golf. It's no Shattuck or Tradition at Wallingford or Royal Ontario, three clubs (New Hampshire, Connecticut and Ontario) whose courses are ill-placed on counter-intuitive land. I never saw an inch of Ballyhack that didn't seem intuitive for golf, and that was over the course of one point five photo tours and one round of golf.
As far as the walking assertions, the only way I read those is PDGC is flat and BH is not. If I were to play BH without a camera and walk, I'd take my push cart and be happy as a clam (as long as it didn't get away from me on the path from 6 tee to 6 fairway.)
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Thanks fellas-----should have realized the BH misses would be more punitive;however,an amazing creation complimenting the terrain.
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Lynch: "I think you just illustrated my point - that second paragraph is quite a bit of qualification and "except fors" for a course that rates as highly as PDGC does. And it's not that I don't think it still deserves its position - I really enjoyed PDGC and appreciate the great holes you mentioned. But that's why I think Ballyhack should at least be in the same league as PDGC, and BH's greater variety, better routing and greater sense of fun / adventure is where I feel it leaves PDGC behind (or simply puts it into even more elite company)."
The second paragraph is an explanation, not a qualification. There isn't a single "except for" in it, so I don't understand THAT reference.
The 5th and 8th are top-shelf par fives. The 6th and 12th are top-shelf short fours. The 7th should play as a short three and it can by throwing out the over-the-mine-shaft tee decks.
I would also love to transpose all the Ballove to a like group of kindred souls that adore PDGC and read their break-down thread.
My "except for" was intended as air quotes or implied quotes rather than a direct quote, with respect to your statements about holes 4,13,15. As in, "it's a great 18 holes (except for) the following holes..."
As for the "explanation" part of the 2nd paragraph, I don't think the sameness I referenced was solely due to increased exposure to Pete Dye. A Par 5 with water all the way down one side isn't just a Pete Dye thing (e.g. Hunters' Pointe 9/18 in our neck of the woods, many courses in Florida). Same for the penal par 3 with water tight to the green.
I'm not disputing the bona fides of PDGC - I think it's the best Dye I've played. But if asked about a comparison of the two, I gave my reasoning and attributes that I believe place Ballyhack at an even higher level (part of which is simply a gut-level resonance with the property).
However, in re-reading my comments, I see that it may be interpreted as being more negative about PDGC than I actually feel about the place. If anyone would do a hole-by-hole of PDGC, I'd love to take part. You'd see some very strong admiration for many holes. Perhaps after this thread wraps up, it may be fun to do (Joe Bausch did a great photo tour, sans the hole-by-hole discussion.)
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The key to Ballyhack is to play within yourself. The penalty for trying to do things of which you are incapable is less than death but more than menacing. Fourteen is a prime example. I had a friend there, now a couple of weeks ago, who was terrified of the drive, even from the up tee. I had him aim way right of the cart path and then lay up in front of the gully. From there he hit a nine iron and made bogey. Ballyhack makes you play within your limits. That is why Ballyhack is not only a test of skill, it is a test of intestinal fortitude and course management. The combination of those three elements is what makes the course so wonderful.
Tommy, This is the essence of much of what I have said through out this thread and some other related BH threads. My exception is that on a number of holes, which I have pointed out, the golfer must take on the hole directly in order to finish the hole and that in doing so within their abilities and without great embarrassment is a big problem.
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When a golfer leaves the practice grounds for the golf course, there is a learning curve and humility is mandatory. When the golfer leaves the golf course for a better course, same. When the golfer leaves the better course for a world-class course, same.
If a guy loses his cool when attempting shots of which he is incapable, all that's left is the entertainment of watching him blow his stack. When he settles down, give him a hug and inform him that we've all been there and we don't wish to drag his still corpse for the remaining holes.
I have a 95 mph driver swing. What that means is, I hit the ball 235 to 240 in the air and take whatever run-out I can get. On #14, there isn't a tee deck I cannot manage; it comes down to aim point. After I find the safe space (rough or fairway) I should have no more than 75 yards to carry the gunga and reach the green area. If I have a tight lie, I putt. If I have something beneath, I might chip.
A big part of the argument that is presented with " the golfer must take on the hole directly in order to finish the hole and that in doing so within their abilities and without great embarrassment is a big problem" is that the golfer has little mental flexibility and spiritual resilience.
When I plan a shot (before I step over the stupid line), I calculate its worth. At times, I'll attempt to pull off the impossible shot, for the same reason that people play the lottery. Those times are usually when score doesn't matter or score must be saved by said miracle. It's the same reason I aimed for the short porch on #15 (is the short porch still there?) at Ballyhack; it was something worth trying.
How many times do you see a golfer warm up with three metals off the tee? If he pures the drive on the range, then loses it on the first two driving holes, will he back off to his three-metal until he regains confidence? Probably not, since he hasn't practiced it.
I understand that few people think the way I do, but no one is forcing those who don't to not practice, to not develop a plan, to not know their strengths and weaknesses.
I have a litmus test for golf courses: Kevin Lynch. This oversized irishman and his oversized smile are only outsized by his candor. You'll get no political jargon from him; he tells it as it is (or at least as he sees/feels it.) Lynch has played in all four Saul Shootouts, during his busy professional season. He makes time to play this event on this golf course each fall. Every playing brings renewed enthusiasm for the course AND a series of gripes about what might make the course unfair to the average/sensitive golfer (usually about high rough.)
If for one second Kevin thought his time would be better spent 10 hours closer to home, he'd spend it there. I've yet to find an argument he makes about Ballyhack that I can refute.
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#15 par five--575,544,508,467
Number fifteen, like many of the holes at Ballyhack, gives the player a number of options off the tee. It has two fairways and three different routes to play the hole. There is a “short porch” that players can reach with an iron or hybrid. There is fairway that winds around a deep ravine that can be played to the left or directly over for the big hitter. The green is reachable in two for most players, depending on the route taken. The entire hole is visible from the tee of this downhill hole. Depending on the day and my mood I will change the manner in which I play the hole.
Sometimes I will just stand on the tee and drink in the splendor of this hole. It is dramatic and stunningly scenic. It is one of the highest points on the back nine. From this view the three different routes are visible, although the “front porch” is blind from the back tee for short people. As you see, 15 shares the green with 13.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040644_zpsd28cc3c1.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040644_zpsd28cc3c1.jpg.html)
Look to the right and this pastoral scene unfolds.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020125_zps47f8b13c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020125_zps47f8b13c.jpg.html)
Choose the route to the left or over the ravine this is the task at hand. Depending on the tee the carry over the left bunker is somewhere between 260 & 280. From there you get a good view of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040644_2_zps05dba6c2.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040644_2_zps05dba6c2.jpg.html)
If, instead, you choose to go right this is the landing area.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020126_zps8e10b951.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020126_zps8e10b951.jpg.html)
From either place it is possible to lay up on the left fairway. Recently, I have done this more frequently. You get a good view of the green from this vantage point.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040645_zpseb560d54.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040645_zpseb560d54.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040648_zps3584e60b.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040648_zps3584e60b.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040648_2_zpsc66a4283.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040648_2_zpsc66a4283.jpg.html)
Most of the time guys will hit the tee ball to the “short porch.” It gives you the best chance to get home in two.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040645_2_zps514a4245.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040645_2_zps514a4245.jpg.html)
There are two dilemmas, however, going this route. If the ball does not travel far enough the tree on the right impedes the second shot. Additionally, the fairway rarely gives you a flat lie. Consequently, the ball is often above your feet or you have a downhill lie with a three wood. Hit it in the correct spot and the second shot is an easy carry over the waste area. If, however, you land short of the green the third shot is blind.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040646_zps67672b05.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040646_zps67672b05.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040647_zps12304ebc.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040647_zps12304ebc.jpg.html)
The greens complex is large and varied. When the pin is back, as in this picture, you have to guard against going left, which will end up on the 13th green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040638_2_zpsa3204fad.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040638_2_zpsa3204fad.jpg.html)
Looking back.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040649_zps443eec7a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040649_zps443eec7a.jpg.html)
By Ballyhack standards, most of the fifteenth green is relatively flat.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020206_zpsf2cf49c5.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020206_zpsf2cf49c5.jpg.html)
The fourteenth fairway is to the left of the tree.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040650_zps3eb2bf39.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040650_zps3eb2bf39.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020207_zpsa186c556.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020207_zpsa186c556.jpg.html)
The first time you play this hole you can’t see all the options. Often I will take the first time player back to the tee after finishing the hole and give him a second go at it. It is simply the most fun hole on the course.
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Kevin, you’re dead on about the qualitative assessments. My degrees are in English, and literary criticism is a big part of my academic background. I’m often disappointed when our golf course criticism fails to do much more than call a course “good” or “bad” or “better than” or “worse than.” Critics in pop culture make a living having binary reactions to the things they judge, but the criticism that I find more meaningful is that which centers on drawing meaningful and objective conclusions from the object of discussion, and minimizing the importance of the “good or bad” side of the discussion.
I’ve mentioned lately that I’m tired of pretending like there’s an absolute truth in golf course architecture, or a truer and higher “good” that can be attained by one course compared to another. Yours and my different reactions to Ballyhack are a perfect example. I can appreciate that it’s thrilling to tackle some of the severe terrain and elevation changes, and your explanation of your own attraction to the course helps me better grasp what others see in it. While I really like the course, it obviously doesn’t hold the place in my heart that it does for you. I see a few warts on it, and there are a handful of places where the severity of the land forces holes that I just find to be a bit awkward. We both agree completely on the land and on many of the playing characteristics, and I think we even agree largely on how much the course gets out of its routing and how good a design work it is. I think it’s the best course that could have been built on the property, and I can fully see how that very property might be both its best asset and also its biggest curse, depending on who’s playing it and having their own personal reaction to the course.
Is Ballyhack truly polarizing? Are there people who hate it? I see it more as a like vs. love course. Most who play it seem to really like it, but a fairly large percentage also develop a real fever for it.
Ron, as for the “intuitive” property, I’ve driven through a lot of the country. I see land regularly and think “Wow, that looks like land for a golf course.” I’ve never gotten that feeling driving along the Blue Ridge Parkway. Maybe I’m just too excited about cycling when I’m out there, but I don’t think a rocky, wooded, mountainous property with several severe ravines is an intuitive place to build a golf course. In fact, a huge part of Ballyhack’s appeal is that it’s a great course on the type of property that rarely produces great golf. There aren’t many courses anywhere on properties like the one at Ballyhack, because those properties don’t lend themselves easily to golf. There are even fewer GOOD courses on properties like that.
As for walkability, I’m a pretty fit guy. I (site-unseen) walked Lester George's Kincaid Lake in Kentucky last summer and ran 8.5 miles when I got home. Lester can attest that pulling off an afternoon like that is plenty of proof that I COULD walk Ballyhack. I just don't see the point - I wouldn't enjoy it. It's a course designed with carts in mind.
Pete Dye Golf Club, like most Dye courses, has short green-to-tee transitions for walkers that are longer for riders as he offers shortcuts for players on foot. The bridges are all conveniently located for walkers taking a direct line, and he includes a few flourishes that make the walk enjoyable like the trip through the mine shaft between 6 and 7. I think it’s pretty clear that Pete Dye GC is a far more reasonable walk than Ballyhack for the multitude of golfers. In fact, I think Lester has been fairly open about the fact that they chose to sacrifice walkability at Ballyhack in the name of building the best course the property would produce.
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I think it’s the best course that could have been built on the property, and I can fully see how that very property might be both its best asset and also its biggest curse, depending on who’s playing it and having their own personal reaction to the course.
Is Ballyhack truly polarizing? Are there people who hate it? I see it more as a like vs. love course. Most who play it seem to really like it, but a fairly large percentage also develop a real fever for it.
Jason - great thoughts overall, and this particular summary was excellent.
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Sorry - hit wrong button.
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Interesting story, which several of you witnessed: as Jim alludes, it's kind of a green with two false fronts. On the Saturday of the George Cup, my approach shot landed at the red dot in Tommy's photo, below. I thought it was a good shot, unable to see which level it landed on. After I'd replaced my divot and everything, a full ten seconds later, we all saw the ball rolling back down the hill, 10 yards short of the green. Mr. DeNigris dropped a ball from waist high on that spot, and it did the exact same thing. I ended up getting up and down, but still... you can never let your guard down.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S8IPiFiMFC8/VG6zJC2cMuI/AAAAAAAAJPc/qM47rm7U-tE/s400/BH_14.jpg)
JB -
The 14th green is one that I strongly believe needs to be modified. Whether the ground shifted or the greens are maintained faster than expected, I think this one was built to flirt with the line, but has crossed it (in my opinion).
Your shot (and one hit by Scott Weersing) during the last George Cup demonstrated it for me.
BTW - did you see a ball mark to verify that's where your ball hit? I was watching from the tee and had a bit of a side angle view of the green. I thought your shot actually landed short of the pin and ran part way up the slope. I even made the comment that it looked like the perfect shot to me, only to see you then hit from short of the green.
Scott's approach (I believe) landed on the lower tier next to the pin, but still released to the upper tier and rolled a foot off the back of the green. I scoured the green for a counterslope he could use or an alternate path (like I've seen on #5 or #9), but there simply was no way he was keeping the ball from falling off the false front. It really didn't matter if he was on the green or a foot over, there wasn't a way to stop it.
There is a way to keep a putt from the upper tier in the lower bowl, but that's only if you come from the high left side and use the slight counterslope in the front right corner of the green (yellow lines on below picture). However, if you try to putt down from the upper portion anywhere on the right half of the green, that front right counterslope isn't effective enough to keep you from getting trapped by the false front (red line).
Also, I noticed that shots from front left (whether a 3rd shot chip or an bank shot approach attempt) can easily wrap around the lower bowl and be fed to the false front (blue line).
(http://i59.tinypic.com/vy1chs.jpg)
The green is a duplicate of the ninth green with a tier. There is no way to keep the ball on the green if you go long.
Scott -
I don't think it's the same as #9, because #9 does allow you to use the area to the left center of the green to keep a ball on the lower tier (from almost anywhere on the upper tier). Also, the lower tier on #9 is a much bigger target for your initial approach than #14. As you and JB demonstrated, even well struck shots have trouble staying in that area.
If the result of an on-line shot that's only a few yards past the hole is a virtually guaranteed putt off the green, I think something needs to be questioned. I think this is especially true when the required shot is so uphill.
I know Carl felt this was the same situation on #5 and #9, but as I discussed earlier, i don't believe that's the case. #5's slope isn't as severe and you can putt from upper to lower. #9 allows this as well (albeit very unconventionally).
I wonder how this hole scored in the VA Open. I bet they did not have any problem with it. But the rest of us do not hit elevated greens very well.
I didn't perform the Mallard-esque beta analysis, but the results are the opposite of your initial impression.
#14 ended up being the 2nd toughest hole for the week (4.553 average) with only #4 ranking higher (4.564). It yielded the least number of birdies (17), but didn't have its score inflated by a number of "others" (triple or higher). What this tells me is that there weren't a ton of penalty strokes accumulated on this hole (only 8 others on #14 vs 16 others on #4). However, the 14th had the highest number of double bogeys than any other on the course (36). What this suggests to me is that you had a lot of very good golfers either missing the green with their 3rd shots (likely short chips or pitches), or putting off.
When you compare the 4th to the 14th, the drive on #14 is much easier to envision and execute (and may often require less than Driver). Plus, #4 was playing at least 40 yards longer (447). in fact, the course stats show #14 as 408/361, which tells me they used a shorter set at some point.
Given the disparity of difficulty in terms of length and tee shot demands, how did #14 only play 1/100th of a stroke easier than #4? The answer has to lie in the difficulty of the green relative to the approach demands, especially when there weren't a rash of triple bogey + numbers. When the green causes that much disparity, I think you have to assess the green design.
If it were up to me, I would consider the following:
- Reduce the effective size of the false front or build up more counterslope across the entire front of the green. You could also increase the size of the front right portion of the green so players could use it more creatively (from more angles).
- Increase the target size of the lower right bowl (perhaps by moving the crest deeper into the green).
- Soften the slope of the tiers, so that a ball could be stopped from the upper right portion of the green
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Hole 14
Kevin,In past years, during Sunday rounds, I have hit great shots to the back pin. the ball kept going and was in 4" rough. The chip shot rolled past the hole at 1 mile/per hour and could not hold the upper tier. We all know what happens after that.
I agree this green is too too over the top.
Hole 15
For me, the front porch and the a hybrid second followed by the half wedge is too simple and straightforward way to play the hole. I think Scott has tried to play long and left, but my fuzzy memory, informs me that had no real advantage. The hole might qualify as quirky, but highly attractive and playable.
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#PunchBowl
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#15 - options abound. Me and my slice "chose" the short cut and laid up on the fourteenth fairway, then opted to lay the sod over the downhill lie on our second so our ball ended up on the cart path at the bottom of the hill...having no decent drop I played it off the cart path to the front pin, easy two putt!
Wouldn't try it again, I played it more correctly (and scored worser) the second time. Great hole though, as mentioned before I think BH and Kinloch shine in the longer holes.
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The 14th hole is a connector hole. It is needed to set up the 15th hole and the double green with 13.
I don't like the hole. The tee shot is awkward in that you need to need to carry the creek to have a short iron into the green.
From my prior post, we're in agreement about the difficulty of the green, but I didn't understand your concerns about the tee shot.
Here's the tee shot from the Ballyhack Red) and Ridge (Blue) tees to the 150 yard mark and the 100 yard mark:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/hulw8h.jpg)
The approx. respective yardages to clear the rough (not even the creek) and to reach the center are:
Ridge Tees:
150 Yards - 160 Yard to FW; 190 to Center
100 Yards - 195 Yard to FW; 230 to Center
Ballyhack Tees:
150 Yards - 170 Yard to FW; 205 to Center
100 Yards - 205 Yard to FW; 250 to Center
Big Lick Tees (not drawn):
150 Yards - 220 Yard to FW; 255 to Center
100 Yards - 255 Yard to FW; 295 to Center
In general, I'm all for holes that require you to take on more risk off the tee to have an easier second (as any of these types of diagonal fairways). But in this case, even the most aggressive play doesn't require that much of a carry (even if you're playing the Big Lick tees).
When you're playing downhill, I don't understand why there's concern about carrying the creek on the tee shot. I think the visuals of the creek make it a bigger factor in your mind than it should be.
I would never have thought of this as a connector hole. The tee shot is aesthetically pleasing while still leaving options in club selection, shot shape and aggressiveness of line. The approach is dramatic and demanding (but could be softened a little with some green modifications).
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BTW - did you see a ball mark to verify that's where your ball hit? I was watching from the tee and had a bit of a side angle view of the green. I thought your shot actually landed short of the pin and ran part way up the slope. I even made the comment that it looked like the perfect shot to me, only to see you then hit from short of the green.
There was a ball mark where I indicated, but I believe you had the better angle (and in fact, I would be surprised if I'd carried my shot that far). Regardless, Chris did drop a ball, softly, on that ball mark and it ended up within a foot of my ball.
JB
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Here's the 15th Hole Aerial:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2gyayxt.jpg)
Here is the description of the hole from the website:
Hole 15 - Chasm
With the prevailing wind usually against, the player can elect to hit a shorter drive to the “short porch” of the fairway in front of the daunting “chasm." This will lead to a longer, but more direct, second over the hazard to a very generous landing area. A bolder drive down the fairway will leave a shorter, but more complicated, look at the landing area short of the green.
I like the drama of the hole, but I have never fully understood the trade-offs for the various options, and they didn't seem to align with the description above.
To me, it seems like the "short porch" is actually the shorter and safer route, despite what the above description said. From the Ballyhack tees, it is ~220 yards, significantly downhill, to find the heart of the short porch (red area). I have hit irons off the tee and been in the 230-240 range regularly. To get to a similar distance on the left (red area), it would take a 305 yard shot, and to a tighter area. Even if you can get to the same distance (the two red areas), the short porch offers a superior angle.
As Tommy mentioned, there are plenty of awkward lies in the short porch area. Despite being in range regularly, I have struggled with the 2nd shot (by trying to force a hybrid or 3 wood off the slight downhill lie). This would make the short porch a riskier trade-off, but only if there were much better lies to the left fairway. However, from my limited experience on the left side, there are still awkward lies there as well (generally downhill or sidehill given the overall slope of the hole). But I'll admit that I haven't tried the left side much once I figured out how to find the short porch regularly. It's possible there may be segments of the left fairway that are more conducive to a hybrid / 3 wood approach.
Now, if I were planning on playing this as a 3 shot hole, I would completely understand playing to the left fairway as an "equal" option. It definitely makes the 2nd shot to the "upper" layup area much easier, especially if you want the downhill, visually unimpeded 3rd shot. But if you don't mind hitting a shorter uphill 3rd shot, the short porch offers an viable 3 shot option as well.
I suppose there is the option of trying to carry the chasm off the tee to leave a very short 2nd shot (more feasible from the Ridge Tees), but the landing area beyond the chasm seems far too small and shallow to make that a reasonable risk (and this is coming from the guy who'll always go for #10 in 2 and #6 from the tee). I tried it once for fun from the Ridge tees (after hitting an iron to the short porch), and bounded through the fairway beyond the chasm (into lost ball rough at the time).
Ultimately, if the short porch were smaller or more fraught with risk, I would understand the trade-offs of the hole. But is seems like the risk/rewards push the short porch option disproportionately relative to other options.
Of course, it may simply be a case where Lester built in a hole that flips expectations on their heads. Since the short porch is visually obscured compared to the vast looking expanse left, players may never think that the best way to get home in 2 is with an iron vs a Driver. That in itself is cool and unusual - it just doesn't seem to align with the hole description on the website.
Wade / Tommy - in your membership playing experience, what % of players actually use the upper layup area?
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Kevin, from my experience most players use the "front porch." I use it less than I use to because I like the third shot in from the left side of the fairway. I have made more birdies from 120 yards out than from twenty yards short of the green. I get a good look at the hole and distance control is easier from there. So I will hit a tee shot left of the ravine and lay up from there.
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Keep in mind, too, that Kevin Lynch is the only chap I've encountered who hops on two feet, rubbing his hands gleefully, at the thought of a downhill-lie 3 metal. Short Porch seems made for him.
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Everyday play on the 15th varies wildly.
This year's club champion hits driver down the left, then lays up down the left, then hits a shortish 3rd (~125 yards) every time.
Other guys I know play to the short porch every time.
From the back tee, the short porch is blind. It's a very challenging shot unless the player picks an exact line. For more information, ask the fairway bunkers Lester built all the way across the second fairway (hint, hint).
From the Ridge tee (and, for some players, the Ballyhack tee) and under proper wind conditions, it's possible to reach the second fairway from the tee. This play is incredibly risky but pays off when accomplished. In the Member-Member last year, my partner and I had 125 into the green for our SECOND shot thanks to a prodigious drive that carried far enough. I've seen this happen multiple times but that day stands out because our opponents (which whom we were tied at the time, I think) didn't even know it was an option.
I tend to make a decision on the tee (and not before). This year I've picked NOT playing to the short porch more than half the time.
The short porch presents a crazy variety of lies (as it should) and the large tree does interfere with lots of shots from there.
It is almost a guarantee that every player in a given foursome will play the hole differently (even if they make similar decisions from the tee).
Even with the awesome visuals and incredible choices that the 15th offers, its beauty is really a matter of timing. It's positioned perfectly within the round. It can completely alter the momentum of a match. Win the 15th, then smash a drive on the 16th, and anything can happen down the stretch.
WW
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Keep in mind, too, that Kevin Lynch is the only chap I've encountered who hops on two feet, rubbing his hands gleefully, at the thought of a downhill-lie 3 metal. Short Porch seems made for him.
Actually, that's my Kryptonite (not that I won't try it anyway). You may be confusing my attempt at a near impossible shot with enthusiasm. Once I'm inside 200 yards, downhill lies don't scare me at all, but with a hybrid or 3 metal, there's plenty of mental scar tissue.
But the short porch ties into Tommy's theme about playing within yourself. I actually think this hole plays into it more than #14. In a way, by giving you a shortcut, Lester's practically daring/ goading you to try the pull of the difficult lie shot to get home in two.
"Cmon - you were able to hit an iron off the tee, you have the better angle, you're looking down at the huge green - what type of wimp doesn't take advantage of that? So what if it's a little downhill lie?"
You even see the 80 yards of fairway short of the green (with no bunkers) and convince yourself. "Well, even if I mishit it 30%, I'm still looking at an easy pitch on in regulation." That's especially bad for me, because the blind uphill pitch doesn't bother me.
The problem is, I'm so tempted that I forget the miss for a 3 wood from a downhill lie isn't 30% or10%. It's usually a cold top, thin squirter with no carry or some major miss that ends up in the creek bed I forgot all about. I'd be better served hitting iron to the short porch, followed by a 6-7 iron and pitch.
I'm probably going to try the left side a little more next time I'm there - maybe I'll discover a quirky place that gives me the green-light lie I'm dreaming of.
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Kevin:
I'm still not happy that we missed playing together at this year's George Cup (though we wouldn't have played the back anyway).
Next year I'll caddy you into the green-light lie. All of your dreams will come true!
WW
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Kevin:
I'm still not happy that we missed playing together at this year's George Cup (though we wouldn't have played the back anyway).
Next year I'll caddy you into the green-light lie. All of your dreams will come true!
WW
I missed it as well this year, but you did get to see my good tee shot on #1 before getting called away. On the bright side, I played so poorly the rest of the way (except #9) that you may have felt it necessary to annul my 2013 Title.
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#16 par four—492, 461, 402, 376, 283
I am not certain why, but I birdie sixteen more than any other hole. The tee ball does not fit my eye and the second shot calls for a left to right shot, not my baby hook. Nonetheless, this hole can be had. The fairway is miles wide but left of center gives the best angle to the green. The first couple times you play this hole you may want to challenge the right side of the fairway. Wrong. The fairway moves left to right and a little fade down the right may find the rough or worse. I aim at the center and try to turn it over a bit. I think, however, a fade down the left side might be the preferred shot. I generally play from the 402 tee, but will periodically play it at 461. For me the second shot can be as long as 200 yards or as short at 150 yards. There is a bail out area left and short of the green that will kick the ball toward the green. This is one of those holes that must have designed itself, since it is a left to right kind of a cape, with a creek and ravine running the entire right side of the hole. It is a great 16th hole. Birdie to double bogey are possible. It is a pretty straightforward hole with a green that is fairly benign but has some very subtle breaks.
From the 461 yard tee.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020208_zps7c170bce.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020208_zps7c170bce.jpg.html)
Up a tee.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040653_zps2e3d1edf.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040653_zps2e3d1edf.jpg.html)
The hole makes you want to go right, but don’t. In fact, the left bunkers get more play than one would think.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020127_zps0415769f.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020127_zps0415769f.jpg.html)
A shot from the bunker will test anyone’s mettle.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020130_zpsdfaae6c0.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020130_zpsdfaae6c0.jpg.html)
From this view the subtle left to right movement of the hole is visible.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040651_zps7b5637fb.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040651_zps7b5637fb.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040652_zps6faa240c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040652_zps6faa240c.jpg.html)
The right side of the fairway is the wrong side of the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040657_zpsc290fa6b.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040657_zpsc290fa6b.jpg.html)
No matter how close, right is wrong.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020128_zpsa9cb943a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020128_zpsa9cb943a.jpg.html)
Looking back gives a clue to the downhill nature of the tee shot and the left to right slope of the fairway.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040658_zps0dafb10e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040658_zps0dafb10e.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020129_zps9861cfce.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020129_zps9861cfce.jpg.html)
From the fairway the 13th tee and cabins are in view.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040654_zps8a6bc6d1.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040654_zps8a6bc6d1.jpg.html)
This is a good angle for the second shot. A little fade is the best shot any ball hit a little left will bound toward the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040655_zps21bbeeb7.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040655_zps21bbeeb7.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040656_zps7309be4a.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040656_zps7309be4a.jpg.html)
Looking back.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040659_zpsee6385f8.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040659_zpsee6385f8.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020131_zps7b27bd90.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020131_zps7b27bd90.jpg.html)
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16 is a well conceived hole. Tommy has described accurately, so I will add my own thoughts ...
The green side bunkering, like all at BH, is severe and should be avoided and a the same time missing left up into the hillside is a non-recoverable miss (like many at BH).
so, if you are unsure about your approach shot and many of the previous holes have you a bit roughed-up, short and left works. to my mind the angle right, narrowness and length of the green, gives the hole its bite.
because this hole gives you the lay-up short option, I see it as one of the fairer holes at BH (just like 15)
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15 is fun, but does it really work? It seems to me like the golf equivalent of the Contra code - you either know the cheat code and beat the game, or you don't. Maybe the short porch is a tougher route for other players than it was for me - I'm a good long-iron player and don't mind downhill lies with a 3 wood either. I just can't imagine playing around the ravine to the far fairway.
16 might be the most elegant hole on the course. It sits so naturally and gracefully on the ground. It really fits nicely into the course's flow for me.
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16th Hole Aerial:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/fw6alc.jpg)
I added the black line to estimate the area with a visual impairment from the tree line (to the middle of the green).
Simply a wonderful hole, with so much width to allow for varying angles and lines from the tee. You have to account for the kick and roll out of your tee shot to select an optimal line. The below picture illustrates some of the additional challenges. On the same line, a ball hitting short of this mound will kick towards the hazard. But if you can get some extra carry, you'll be propelled forward (and even a little away from the hazard).
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020129_zps9861cfce.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020129_zps9861cfce.jpg.html)
Once there, it's a wonderful challenge for the second shot. I always feel so satisfied when I hit this green.
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#15 - Based on my plays I have to agree with those that view the short porch as the only real play. there is significant width to hit into and from that side of the fairway it's a pretty straightforward shot to get up towards the green. the only question that repeated plays would present to me is whether or not short of the green is preferable to a full wedge from the left fairway? If you don't get up pretty cluse to the green you are left with a blind wedge off an uphill lie. Even if you were trying to lay up over to the left I still think a lay-up off the tee is called for since a driver would simply make the lay-up somewhat shorter. I really like the approach into the green here. The drop-off down into the middle of the double green is a great short grass hazard in my opinion and will really make me think about chasing back or even middle pins in the future.
#16 - This hole has had my number pretty much every time I have played it. Any bad and many not so bad misses on this hole will meet a penal end with little or no chance of recovery. there is plenty of width off of the tee and it really is a good and honest hole that lays very nicely on the ground. In many ways it is not really that Ballyhack-ish and the hole on the back that I would vote as most likely to be seen on a different course. I don't really see any reason to challenge the right side of the fairway off the tee. Upon reflection I am pretty convinced that the best miss around the green is the front/right bunker. The hillside left and long is really a bad place to wind up as I have found out a few times.
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Often when I reach 16 I have a good score. But, I know that I still have 16 and 18 to play. Both can be had but both are also card wreckers. On 16 I will tend to hit my tee shot a little left of where I might like it to guard against missing it right. But at least it is in the fairway with a good angle, even if it is further away than I would want to be. I will also guard against going right on my second shot as well, and can hit it left. I have decided that the second shot needs to be a fade or a little low runner that kicks off the hill short and left of the green. The worst thing you can do at Ballyhack is protect a score. But when you get to 16 you are definitely thinking about score. Protect too much and bogey or double are in your future. This hole is perfectly placed in the round.
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Tommy you dog. 16 is the hole on the golf course that I birdie THE LEAST. For some reason, it just gets in my head. I may have birded it once! I have had as little as 9 iron in and I just can not get close to the hole. Most often I miss the green. Imagine.
Jason, I guarantee if you ever step onto the tee on 15 with a 25 or 30 mile wind into your face and overcook that utility club, driver or long iron into the far left rough, you will have an amazing appreciation for the left fairway layup then. I have seen the best of the best hook it (yes even aiming for the porch) into that rough and hit all the club they wanted to get to the end of the left fairway. Its almost like we thought about that in the design phase.
Lester
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Tommy you dog. 16 is the hole on the golf course that I birdie THE LEAST. For some reason, it just gets in my head. I may have birded it once! I have had as little as 9 iron in and I just can not get close to the hole. Most often I miss the green. Imagine.
.
Lester
Lester, I probably won't birdie 16 again since I challenged its manhood.
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Ballyhack's elasticity is more evident on 16 than almost anywhere else.
I have hit 3 wood-wedge downwind to a front pin. I've hit driver-three wood into the wind to a back pin.
The green is one of the deepest on the golf course and slopes away from the player at the back.
The front right greenside bunkers might seem to be the miss but they aren't. They're much deeper than they would appear.
The giant waves that consume the ground underneath the right side of the fairway are beautiful in the afternoon sun. They've got to be the result of a couple thousand years of runoff toward the creek.
Par wins 16 almost every time.
WW
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#17 par 3—152, 126, 126, 113, 98
Ballyhack has an exceptional collection of par threes. Number three is the most stout with the combination of length and wild green. Number seven is just a straight forward par three of medium length. Number thirteen can play at various lengths and angles and is a favorite of many. Number seventeen is both brilliantly conceived and beautiful. It sits on a hillside over a deep ravine that seems to run through the entire property and forms a beautiful background from the clubhouse.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040683_zpsa4c1a8cc.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040683_zpsa4c1a8cc.jpg.html)
Like thirteen, seventeen has two different angles.
The left tee is a little higher and affords the best look. It is my favorite tee. It is 152 yards.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040661_zps29e0897c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040661_zps29e0897c.jpg.html)
The right tee has various lengths, including another at 156 yards.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040660_zps21dc9a4b.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040660_zps21dc9a4b.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/unnamed-2_zps41c9b807.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/unnamed-2_zps41c9b807.jpg.html)
The green is divided into three sections. The back right is the most difficult to get a ate ball close. It falls away from the player. You have to either fly the shot high or bounce it up. I seem to end up short of the rise, which leaves a difficult two putt.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040660_2_zpsf79d1a22.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040660_2_zpsf79d1a22.jpg.html)
This is one of the easier pin placements. If, however, the tee shot ends up left of the pin there is a tricky downhill-sidehill putt.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/unnamed-2_2_zps5b7f2a48.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/unnamed-2_2_zps5b7f2a48.jpg.html)
Looking back. 16 fairway on the left, 12 in the middle, and 18 fairway to the right.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040662_zpsc881891c.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040662_zpsc881891c.jpg.html)
I love this hole as a seventeenth. It is sandwiched between two stout par fours and gives the player a legitimate shot a birdie. I remember a story about Henry Longhurst’s first visit to Killarney Golf and Fishing Club. He is purported to have commented, “What a lovely place to die.” That sums up my feeling and affection for number 17.
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I love the way Mike strange encircles par three holes with tees and I love the way mr. Keiser did it at the dunes club. Could more tees be built for this hole, to take advantage of even more angles?
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I tried to represent my appreciation for this splendid hole in my painting, which can be found on this site's "Best of Golf" section. Have a look.
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Am I really the only one who finds the Short Porch kinda tough to hit, especially when there is some breeze (and is there ever NOT a breeze or more?), and then the fun really begins from the junk just off the fairway left.
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Am I really the only one who finds the Short Porch kinda tough to hit, especially when there is some breeze (and is there ever NOT a breeze or more?), and then the fun really begins from the junk just off the fairway left.
Andy-fess up- You just like mashing driver across the ravine on 15. :)
I find it a bit more of an awkward shot than a tough one. If it was purely about the "smart play" it would probably be smartest to develop a comfort zone for that iron/hybrid stroke and play from the porch in most cases. For me though, I stubbornly hate to hit anything but driver on a par 5- so I almost always go left. There are actually a couple of extremely sweet places for drives to settle on that part of the fairway (one is near a drainage grate in a small flat area), which reward the player with almost as easy (if not easier, due to the lie) chance to get home in two as does the porch. Especially if you like to draw your 3 metal- which the tree can sometimes mess with if playing from the porch.
Another note about the left side and the layup if one isn't in perfect go for it position- there is a lot more fairway towards the lay-up zone than meets the eye. That bit of semi-blindness makes the layup a little more nervy in an attempt to get it as close as possible without dropping off into the abyss.
Just another great BH par 5- 3 of the most unique and fun par 5s on one course that I can think of.
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Hole 17:
To get back to some other themes about BH .... walking. the walk from 16 green up and around to 17 tee is a formidable hike. the walk from 17 tee to 17 green is also. If I were walking and carrying, at this point in the round, the walk from 16 green to 17 green would take quite a lot out of me. and my golf as well as my experience would probably suffer.
Tommy has consistently made accurate descriptions of this hole and all the rest. The right back quadrant is the Sunday pin. Not a hard green to hit, but like all greens at BH, careful approach putting is mandatory. Very striking hole. 11 green is over the hill off the right side of this green.
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It's not so much that I think the short porch is easy to hit. It's more that I don't find it any more difficult to hit than the left side of the fairway. I'm a much more consistent player with a long iron than I am with a driver - for example, there's a 220-230 yard par 3 at my home course that I hit in regulation during 11 consecutive rounds this year. For my game, I'll almost always fire at the target that I'm going to hit 80% of the time as opposed to the target that I might hit 50-60% of the time, especially when the 80% target leaves a shorter second shot and relatively high probability of birdie.
I'll eventually miss the porch and have to scramble, but I'll have the same issue eventually if I go left with the driver as well. The long term percentages are just better from the short porch, and the short term reward of a potential eagle or birdie is higher as well. To me, a true risk/reward hole needs a safe option that may produce a lower average score over 100 plays, along with a higher-variance option that may produce the lowest score on a single play. To me, 15 is hampered slightly by the fact that the short porch is likely both the best play over 100 rounds and also over a single play.
It's certainly fun to play though, and maybe that's all that really matters.
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Hole 17:
To get back to some other themes about BH .... walking. the walk from 16 green up and around to 17 tee is a formidable hike. the walk from 17 tee to 17 green is also. If I were walking and carrying, at this point in the round, the walk from 16 green to 17 green would take quite a lot out of me. and my golf as well as my experience would probably suffer.
Tommy has consistently made accurate descriptions of this hole and all the rest. The right back quadrant is the Sunday pin. Not a hard grren to hit, but like all greens at BH, careful approach putting is mandatory. Very striking hole. 11 green is over the hill off the right side of this green.
As Carl alludes to in his post- 17 may be one of the finest "Triple Quadrant" template holes that I've ever played. I think Scott will back me up on this one.
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I love the way Mike strange encircles par three holes with tees and I love the way mr. Keiser did it at the dunes club. Could more tees be built for this hole, to take advantage of even more angles?
There could be a tee further to the right but it would sit below the green giving a partial blind shot. Not sure what would be gained by it.
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I tried to represent my appreciation for this splendid hole in my painting, which can be found on this site's "Best of Golf" section. Have a look.
Great rendering of the hole. Love the one you did of five as well.
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I tried to represent my appreciation for this splendid hole in my painting, which can be found on this site's "Best of Golf" section. Have a look.
Great rendering of the hole. Love the one you did of five as well.
+1
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Aerial:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/i6jwhv.jpg)
Here's an older aerial which better captures the "three quadrants" referred to by Chris.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2qdorgg.jpg)
The tiers aren't as severe as other holes like 9 or 14 and you can die putts at the crest and have them stop in a reasonable time. My favorite putt is from the upper right tier to the lower left.
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Take yourself back in time to the days when people first started whacking balls with sticks. I imagine it was an informal exercise, with no clear teeing grounds or pins to play to, but I still like to think that a man would challenge his opponent to reach different targets in the fewest number of hits.
It's not hard to imagine two friends finding themselves standing at the edge of a ravine and challenging each other to cross it. Holes like the 17th at Ballyhack have a timeless appeal rooted in the game's origins. Watching a ball sail from one finger of land to another over a ravine is one of the game's simplest joys, and one that I don't think ever diminishes no matter how skilled a player you are.
Ballyhack needs a hole like the 17th, and the fact that it comes at this point in the round makes it even more effective. The obvious penalty for a disastrous swing adds a little extra tension and the joy of watching a well-struck shot fly true is amplified by the hole's terrain. This is one of the highlights of the course for me.
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#18 par four-- 455, 428, 401, 362, 318
Par on 18 is a good score. So many things can go wrong. The fairway from the tee looks miles wide. Looks can be deceiving. The one lone tree stands sentry. Guarding the green from any ball that dares to venture to the right side of the fairway. Anything that dares to go to far left is on the hill or in pretty thick blue grass. The second shot is more uphill than it appears. Beyond that the green is long, really long. I’m not sure how long but I thing it must be thirty to forty yards long. Lester and Wade will know the exact yardage. The green is not only long it has wild slopes and undulations. Hitting the green isn’t the problem. Two putting can be difficult. I have seen more four putts on this green than any other on the course.
This view from the twelfth tee displays the entire hole.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040629_zpsc75cd75e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040629_zpsc75cd75e.jpg.html)
From the tee the tree on the right looms large.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040664_zpsc67e9f9e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040664_zpsc67e9f9e.jpg.html)
It is easy to protect too much and go left.
I try to aim at the tree and turn it over a bit. The fairway lists a little from right to left so anything moving that direction will find the middle of the fairway. From behind the tree you need to hit a low running cut with the ball a little above your feet.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/unnamed-1_zps5f39dfc2.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/unnamed-1_zps5f39dfc2.jpg.html)
Looking back from the landing area. It is downhill tee shot and an uphill second shot.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040665_zps6525aea6.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040665_zps6525aea6.jpg.html)
This back right pin placement is a least two clubs different than a front pin.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040666_zps67eb950d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040666_zps67eb950d.jpg.html)
A little valley meanders through the entire length of the green.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040667_zpsddafd461.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040667_zpsddafd461.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040669_zpsbb093439.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040669_zpsbb093439.jpg.html)
Goats going home from a long day’s work.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040668_zps7b1b73c6.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040668_zps7b1b73c6.jpg.html)
Sunset from the back of eighteen.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/unnamed_zps9aca1fe5.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/unnamed_zps9aca1fe5.jpg.html)
The more I play Ballyhack the more I want to play it. I have played 36 rounds there this year. When I go I stay in a cottage, eat at the club and never move my car. Friends that I bring can’t wait to return. You don’t play and say, “This reminds me of....” It is unique, fun, and will test anyone’s game. The staff are great and the food is superb.
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Tommy, thanks for doing the hole by hole. With a larger field at the George Cup this year, I was hoping for more BH visibility on the site. As usual an accurate description. With your local knowledge and many many plays, I think you are lock on the George Cup for as long as you want to show up.
Hole 18: My experience is that the fairway plays narrower than it looks (again IMO similar to many BH tee shots). The approach shot plays at least 1.5 clubs more than you think. The bunkers on this hole are less severe than on other holes.
Every time I play 18, I am always amazed by the size, scale & movement of the green. Hard to describe.
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Am I really the only one who finds the Short Porch kinda tough to hit, especially when there is some breeze (and is there ever NOT a breeze or more?), and then the fun really begins from the junk just off the fairway left.
Andy-fess up- You just like mashing driver across the ravine on 15. :)
I find it a bit more of an awkward shot than a tough one. If it was purely about the "smart play" it would probably be smartest to develop a comfort zone for that iron/hybrid stroke and play from the porch in most cases. For me though, I stubbornly hate to hit anything but driver on a par 5- so I almost always go left. There are actually a couple of extremely sweet places for drives to settle on that part of the fairway (one is near a drainage grate in a small flat area), which reward the player with almost as easy (if not easier, due to the lie) chance to get home in two as does the porch. Especially if you like to draw your 3 metal- which the tree can sometimes mess with if playing from the porch.
Another note about the left side and the layup if one isn't in perfect go for it position- there is a lot more fairway towards the lay-up zone than meets the eye. That bit of semi-blindness makes the layup a little more nervy in an attempt to get it as close as possible without dropping off into the abyss.
Just another great BH par 5- 3 of the most unique and fun par 5s on one course that I can think of.
lol!
Chris, you're right! I really do enjoy trying to whack driver on this hole. (though I have to admit being a bit intimidated trying to hit something to the end of the short porch--I have missed a few yards left just often enough to be fearful). In fact, I enjoy hitting driver more on Ballyhack than any other course I can think offhand. There are a number of holes where its flat out fun/exhilarating to use driver or where I give way more thought to what I want to do with my driver (or not do, such as hit a draw on 8 or a fade on 12) than I ordinarily do.
Just a fun driving course
And now Tommy has me wondering about hitting driver on 14 from the up/left tee......
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Fantastic tour.
I somehow ended up on the back fringe of 18 despite a front pin. I think the putt I hit from there moved 15 feet in both directions before settling, and I'd guess the ball was moving for 20 seconds or more. First time I ever felt good about a three putt.
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Here's the 18th from above:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2h7lxqo.jpg)
While the fairway is roughly 40 yards wide in the 150-200 yard range, you can see that the effective width is much narrower due to the imposition of the tree (black line represents impact of tree line). However, this isn't an "absolute" narrowing, because the green is so large and you can shoot for the front left corner or slice the ball back to any right side pin. Also, if you are close to the tree (inside 150 yards or so), it is always feasible to hit a low chaser under the branches given the normal firm conditions and open front.
The red line represents the alternate route I proposed to my team during my initial George Cup Shamble (and used by the Pro's team). With a back right pin, I'd call that "Position A."
At times over the years, I have found the depth of the rough along the right side to be a bit much (and redundant given the tree), but that has been maintained lower in recent visits (perhaps due to the lessened need for erosion control). Once erosion is less of a concern, I'd love to see short grass all along the right side and allow for more opportunities to shape balls under or around the specimen tree. However, I suppose that temptation may put the corner of the clubhouse in danger if people don't execute their planned hooks.
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I somehow ended up on the back fringe of 18 despite a front pin. I think the putt I hit from there moved 15 feet in both directions before settling, and I'd guess the ball was moving for 20 seconds or more. First time I ever felt good about a three putt.
Following up on Tommy's query, this green plays as big as 66 x 42 yards in some spots, so a putt from the dead center of the green can still require a mighty whack. It's not unusual to see a pin sheet with "+24" written on it.
This green is the site of the George Cup Midnight Putting Contest, and you can see why. Several carts are parked around the green and flashlights / iPhone lights are used to illuminate the pin. To keep from walking back & forth too much, a wine bottle usually serves as a target for every other round.
But the Midnight Contest may be a curse, like the Par 3 Contest during the Masters. The MPC was more informal in years past, but added some structure in 2014. The 2014 Midnight Putting Contest was captured by Jason Williams (2011 GC Champion), but J-Will then proceeded to finish dead last in the official 2014 George Cup event.
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This has been an excellent photo tour. Posting tours takes quite a bit of time and effort so posting one with this high level of detail is very commendable. Well done to all involved. More courses with goats (and sheep) to assist with the maintenace would be nice
atb
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The goats are a great touch. Those were some great photos and a great tour in general. Ballyhack looks like a great challenge on a beautiful piece of land.
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A truly great hole by hole. Thanks for all your work, Tommy and Wade!
I’ve deliberately avoided posting in the middle of this thread, preferring to wait to the end and simply add a couple of “big picture” comments.
It seems that there has been a recurring theme of “unrecoverable” position complaints. I strongly disagree. Ballyhack is difficult, yes. The terrain is severe, yes. However the fairways are enormous as, generally, are the greens, and I can’t think of a single place on the course where (assuming you find your ball) recovery for a bogy is not a fairly simple matter.
I LOVE the mental aspect of golf. No other sport or game combines the mental discipline required with the physical execution. Ballyhack presents a rigorous test of both on virtually every shot. Tommy, Wade, and Kevin each alluded to this early in the thread:
(Tommy)
For me the challenge is to keep my head for 18 holes. When I do, I can score well. When I overreach I score poorly.
(Wade)
From the first through the eighteenth, Ballyhack requires an aggressive swing at a conservative target.
Get this backwards and the golf course will punish you.
(Kevin)
Put another way, the individual shot demands are not unreasonable, but loose swings get punished and can tend to compound.
What I’ve found is that the course is big and brawny enough that:
1) The fairways are huge and, played conservatively, almost impossible to miss completely. However,
2) Invariably there is significant advantage to playing to a particular portion of the fairway.
Attempts to gain that advantage which are poorly executed will often be punished with a poor stance, lie, or angle to the green. Poorly executed aggressive shots from these less than ideal positions may well result in an unrecoverable position.
Recovery from a loose swing, then, is simply to play a recovery shot to good position, then attempt to get up and down. Except for truly horrible shots, generally Ballyhack penalizes the first loose swing moderately, then imposes a severe penalty on the second (which was combined generally with a poor decision). That, in my view, should be an architect’s objective.
I truly love Ballyhack. The course is both beautiful and a blast to play, the club facilities are perfect for the golfer seeking a few days of great golf, fellowship, and good food, and the staff is exceedingly gracious.
Jamey
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Yes, a very solid and detailed photo tour. Well done!
I played Ballyhack during the Dixie Cup a few years back. A few thoughts:
1) The staff and architect couldn't have been more welcoming. These guys LOVE their course and it shows.
2) Playing the right tees is important. Some of the carries on the tee shots and the approach shots are very long.
3) There are a lot of options and different ways to play many of the holes and that makes it fun.
4) It looks from these photos that the native grass has been cut-down considerably in spots. This is a welcome improvement. I had several instances where my ball was lost just a few feet from the fairway and rough. Being able to find these balls would be a welcome relief.
5) The greens have plenty of movement, and are a blast to putt. The double green is spectacular.
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It seems that there has been a recurring theme of “unrecoverable” position complaints. I strongly disagree. Ballyhack is difficult, yes. The terrain is severe, yes. However the fairways are enormous as, generally, are the greens, and I can’t think of a single place on the course where (assuming you find your ball)[/i] recovery for a bogy is not a fairly simple matter.
The emphasized part of that sentence is really the main source of concern for me. I don't mind if you give me a 20 degree sidehill lie in 3-4 inches of rough - that at least gives me something to try (or accept my punishment). Like you said, the terrain is severe and the bunkers are difficult, too, which is part of the reason that some of the lost ball rough seems redundant or unnecessary (unless needed for erosion control).
And if it's in a bad enough position that I can't recover, that's fine too. I just want to do something other than search for a ball for 3-5 minutes and then do the walk of shame or drop a ball & treat it like a hazard (for example, the approx. 200 balls found in the 10 feet around the fairway bunker on #5).
However, as others have noted, the native areas have been tamed in the last year, and I hope that trend continues. I was a little spoiled in that I saw the course very early in 2010, before these nasty areas had grown in their full set of teeth. For example, I hit into the chasm on #15 on my first visit, and was still able to take a swing for a layup shot. It wasn't easy and still held the potential for a compounding error, but it wasn't an automatic result.
But regardless of my varying degrees of concern over that issue, the one thing that never fluctuates is my love for the design and variety of holes Lester created.
I place upper echelon courses into two categories - those I "see" and those I "feel." The ones that deeply touch my "golf soul" are special, and Ballyhack is one of them. I know that every time I cross Pitzer Road, I can literally “breathe in” the course and still get goosebumps. So even after we spend 13 pages discussing strategy, shot values, contouring and all the other “characteristics” that we use in our attempt to judge a course - the ultimate final question for me is “does it inspire you?”
On that count, Ballyhack is a resounding "yes."
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Many thanks to all who participated on this photo tour, and especially to Kevin Lynch, last year's George Cup holder, for providing the aerial views. Now if Jon Cavalier can teach me to take photos like his it would even be more fun.
I thought I would post some pictures of the clubhouse, cabins, and just some images from around the course. (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020178_zpsa5e440f1.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020178_zpsa5e440f1.jpg.html)
The clubhouse is comfortable and large enough for the small membership. (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040673_zps8117136e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040673_zps8117136e.jpg.html) (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040675_zps0c42d303.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040675_zps0c42d303.jpg.html)
There are three identical four bedroom cabins. (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020145_zps3c08416d.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020145_zps3c08416d.jpg.html) (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020138_zps9c2aa702.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020138_zps9c2aa702.jpg.html) (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020140_zpsfc77e277.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020140_zpsfc77e277.jpg.html)
View of #12 behind the cabins (17 green in the distance) (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020173_zps56888f5e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020173_zps56888f5e.jpg.html) (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020160_zps5e438ece.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020160_zps5e438ece.jpg.html)
A friend with a cigar and an adult beverage after 36 holes.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040694_zps9b270623.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040694_zps9b270623.jpg.html)
View from the clubhouse patio. (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040682_zpsc9f9d8a0.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040682_zpsc9f9d8a0.jpg.html) (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040679_zpsb73142dc.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040679_zpsb73142dc.jpg.html)
Ballyhack is more than the course. It’s just a great place to hangout. (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040556_zps94a4c36e.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040556_zps94a4c36e.jpg.html)
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Many thanks are needed for this tour.
First and foremost, thanks to Tommy for taking the lead on this and assembling the photos to facilitate our discussions. Obviously, many people wanted to talk about the course, but someone needed to get the ball rolling, and who better than the reigning George Cup Champion.
A huge debt of gratitude is also owed to Wade Whitehead. If not for his efforts in putting on the Saul Shootout for the last 4 years, many of us would not have the familiarity with Ballyhack to allow such in-depth discussion. And this is on top of all the course insight he has added during the tour, as well as numerous nuggets he has imparted during the annual events (often through the Quiz). If any of you had your interest piqued by this tour, I would strongly encourage you to sign up for the 5th Saul Shootout for the George Cup next year.
Thanks also to Lester for taking part at various points during the discussion - there's no comparison to the insight provided by the artist. I hope you're not done with this thread and can add even more insight before this topic falls to the realms of page 2 and beyond. Wade dropped some hints about potential changes, and we would love to hear about any of them (as much as you can say in this forum).
Of course, thanks to everyone who took part and added (candid) insights and different perspectives to the discussions. I know I learned quite a bit about how other golfers may look at course characteristics differently, especially the effect of uphill shots in this case. Again, I hope you're not done with this thread yet, since I'd love to hear even more perspectives (and perhaps some macro-level summaries). The interest in this type of detailed thread has inspired a few of us to start a similar discussion regarding Pete Dye Golf Course in the near future and I hope many of you can & will take part.
Lastly, thanks to Jon Cavalier for his contributed photo tour to supplement this one http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59991.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59991.0.html). Like I alluded earlier, sometimes you can talk about the details of a course, and other times you just let the beauty of it wash over you. I think both were conveyed.
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Tommy - love to. Anytime. But I have to say, your photos are pretty damn fine. You've done a wonderful job of really giving is a sense of the course and perspective. This was a great tour.
Kevin - thanks for the plug.
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As others have said, a great 18 hole photo tour, I followed all the way through which I often don't do, perhaps because because I've played the course or because the course is so good or the passion of the contributors shown through.
Overall I think the front is more "fun" golf - you never know what's around the corner or bend and you'll never have the same shot twice; the back nine is more "real" golf though not in a bad way.
I said earlier the course didn't play hard-ish for me...well my double-Bogey round would say otherwise. So it must have been fun instead. Despite a bad round in the morning, BH is a place I couldn't wait to tee it up right away; finding solutions to its problems (some which I created, some that Lester did) would always be a pleasure.
I think golf is hard enough as it is and a sign of greatness lies in and around the greens, and these greens offer wonderful slopes and angles. The topography lends itself for great golf - great sledding too! Might have a chance today as this wintry mix falls on Thanksgiving Day, have a great one everyone.
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Thanks guys. The outstanding photography, analysis, discussion, and testimonials make this the best thread of its type, ever. The only final touch I can suggest is a diagram or aerial of the routing. I think the essence of the course and the club has been captured. From my standpoint, while I have hoped to return one day, it has not been a priority. This is no longer the case. Perhaps it is time for the DC to return in 2015, though maybe a bit earlier in the calendar.
Re: #18, Mike Clayton's linked article in Jason Topp's Australian Open thread (Mike's conversation with a pine tree) comes to mind. While the tree guarding the right half of the fairway, an oak as I recall, is a specimen tree which has been there for many decades, it seems to dominate a hole which would be very demanding even without it. An otherwise good drive that finds the short grass and still requires a long approach leaves the player with the choice of laying up or punching a cut shot underneath the tree with the hope of skirting the greenside bunkers left and right.
Not possessing Jamey's or Tommy's disciplined restraint, in a tight Dixie Cup match (I think it was Jason Topp, an opponent, who knocked it stiff on 17 in hard sleet for a tap-in birdie to even the match), with my partner in his pocket, I am left in the right half of the fairway with the choice of hitting a sand wedge into position over the tree or punch something under it from 195 yards out. I opted for the latter, got in a bad lie in the front right bunker, hit it thin way over the green into an impossible lie in "the natives", and took four from there for a 7 to lose the hole and the match to a double bogie. Perhaps my opponents found some charm in the possibilities offered by the hole. Me, I am of Mr. Clayton's mindset that the tree has a much higher use as furniture than it does as a vertical hazard in the immediate line of play on the golf course.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
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The only final touch I can suggest is a diagram or aerial of the routing. I think the essence of the course and the club has been captured.
I added one around hole #5, but if someone joined in late, they wouldn't see it. I'll edit one of my comments from the first page and add it in for future reference. Also, I only started the aerial hole maps on #4, so I may go back and add #1-3 as well.
Re: #18, Mike Clayton's linked article in Jason Topp's Australian Open thread (Mike's conversation with a pine tree) comes to mind. While the tree guarding the right half of the fairway, an oak as I recall, is a specimen tree which has been there for many decades, it seems to dominate a hole which would be very demanding even without it. An otherwise good drive that finds the short grass and still requires a long approach leaves the player with the choice of laying up or punching a cut shot underneath the tree with the hope of skirting the greenside bunkers left and right.
Not possessing Jamey's or Tommy's disciplined restraint, in a tight Dixie Cup match (I think it was Jason Topp, an opponent, who knocked it stiff on 17 in hard sleet for a tap-in birdie to even the match), with my partner in his pocket, I am left in the right half of the fairway with the choice of hitting a sand wedge into position over the tree or punch something under it from 195 yards out. I opted for the latter, got in a bad lie in the front right bunker, hit it thin way over the green into an impossible lie in "the natives", and took four from there for a 7 to lose the hole and the match to a double bogie. Perhaps my opponents found some charm in the possibilities offered by the hole. Me, I am of Mr. Clayton's mindset that the tree has a much higher use as furniture than it does as a vertical hazard in the immediate line of play on the golf course.
If every hole were dominated by tree considerations, I may feel differently about the specimen on #18, but I think it's OK to have a more demanding tee shot on the 18th hole, especially given the size of the green. The 18th may be the tightest driving hole, even though it looks very large. It's counterintuitive, but it's an easier shot for me if I'm further away, since I can more reliably cut a longer club. Laying back to 180-200 (where the fairway is widest) may be better than trying to get near the tree.
However, because the tree does dominate the hole, I think there could be some offset in the set-up of the rough. I know some guys even kicked around the idea of maintaining the grass along the right hillside very short to see if people may play long running shots to the right of the tree and have them deflect back towards the green.
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A course I play quite regularly has a tree not dissimilar to the one on the 18th at Ballyhack. Some would like the tree to remain but for several of the more significant lower branches to be removed and for the grass underneith and to the sides cut to be mowed at fairway height thus permitting various different kinds of low trajectory 'under-the-tree' or swerve shots to be played.
atb
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I note an occasional counter- comment to my comments on this thread. (which is OK.)
Final thought....
I am completely of 2 minds.
1. Should courses be judged on their own terms? What is this course trying to do and how well does it do it?
(Did Lester want to do a real back breaker of a course???)
2. Or in a comparative sense to other courses?
Perhaps in a few more years, I can figure that out (for myself at least).
I have yet to play any other Lester's courses, except Lambert's Point, a 9 holer in Norfolk, VA, and it is a real outlier by any standard. So, I do not know how to compare BH to the whole of Lester's work. But I have played Tobacco Road 5 times now and I find that TR is a much more of a strategically playable than BH (at least for me). The golfer can choose to take on TR or choose to lay back or go around. The golfer cannot do that at BH.
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The only final touch I can suggest is a diagram or aerial of the routing. I think the essence of the course and the club has been captured.
I added one around hole #5, but if someone joined in late, they wouldn't see it. I'll edit one of my comments from the first page and add it in for future reference. Also, I only started the aerial hole maps on #4, so I may go back and add #1-3 as well.
As suggested by Lou, I have modified my first post to include the overall map of the property (and figured out how to add numbers - so it looks much better). I also added hole maps for #1-3, which included some additional info (such as length of carry on #1 tee). Wish I'd known how to add numbers / text via Paint earlier.
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Before I finish up my thought I wanted to thank Tommy, Carl, Wade and Kevin for being the motive force behind this thread. Ballyhack is a compelling course on many dimensions.
#17: Good hole with the green creating distinct areas that are effectively a series of small greens given the length. Good hole that probably requires more plays than I have had to really get an idea of how different areas of the green responds to different shots.
#18: Awesome finish. The drive is very demanding with the large tree down the right really playing a big role in my mind. I am generally ok with playing a low cut if I end up on the right side of the fairway the size and roll of the green makes all approaches that much more demanding. Really a hole with a ton of character. I do think that keeping the left hillside more playable/findable really makes you want to challenge the left side of the fairway more. The slope of the hillside is tough enough but if the risk is a lost ball than playing to the wider area on the right and leaving the cut around/under the big tree has to be the better play.
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There’s a lot to like about the last hole- the incredible green being foremost- but…how often does that tree have to come into play before it’s too much of a hindrance? For a course that is the epitome of fun- for me 18 is one of the least fun in playability. And ironically it comes at a point where the fun should be building to a crescendo, not the opposite. This is the green that I hit the least- and I don’t think it’s even close. I’ve hit more decent to good drives on that hole where that tree has painfully affected my approach. Now, for better players who don’t mind the challenge of cutting a mid-iron, usually blindly, from a hook lie- this probably sounds like entitled whining. And sometimes I do like that kind of challenge- just not nearly as often as it seems to occur on 18. Maybe I’d find it somewhat more endearing if it came somewhere else in the round. Just not enough room to intentionally play left- the penalty for missing on that side is usually severe. Maybe if the left bank was cut low, encouraging balls to feed off the hill into a playable lie it would effectively increase the width and help some. The frustrating part is that the green is so cool- and inherently built with tremendous defense mechanisms-even while accepting straightforward iron shots. I'd just like to be able to try that more often.
I think the back nine is hard to criticize- for me it’s that good. I only quibble with the drive on 12 and that dang tree on 18.
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Chris, I am of two minds about the tree on 18. For the most part the only trees that come into play are the tree from the short porch on 15 and the tree on 18. The tree on 18 is a wonderful specimen tree that would be hard to lose. Trees play almost no part at Ballyhack. On the other hand, its placement really hinders the second shot from the right side of the fairway. When I am to the right I try to hit it to the front left corner of the green. If I am back far enough I will try to cut shot around the tree, but it is a little difficult because the ball tends to be above your feet. I wonder what the hole would be like without the tree. Not sure I would take it out.
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Here's an older aerial which better captures the "three quadrants" referred to by Chris.
Wouldn't that be "thirds" and not "quadrants"?
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Regarding the tree on the final traipse, why not take out the bunker that is even with the tree, across the fairway from it, on the left? Then, grass that area into a fairway hollow. You don't lose the specimen tree (which I agree, should stay) and you give a bit more fairway. At that point, if they still miss right, t-s.
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If a scratch player or pro complains about a bunker that's too tough, or drawing an unfairly difficult lie, or a pin cut in a spot on a green that they can't fire at directly, we shake our heads and accuse them of failing to understand architecture.
Stick one of us in the fairway behind a tree that forces a layup or play away from the flag, though, and everybody wants to blow the hole up.
18 isn't one of the best moments on the course, but one of the things I like about it is the way it presents a challenge that goes beyond simply hitting targets. Just hitting the fairway isn't enough, as it's possible to get stymied behind the tree or catch a kick left when the ball lands that sends it into the rough. Just hitting the green isn't enough, as it's gigantic and four-putts are realistically possible if the approach is played imprecisely. It's a hole that demands a strong finish and rewards the thoughtful player who can avoid panicking if he misses Position A off the tee or fails to hit the green.
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Tommy,
Thank you so much for putting this tour together. It's clear that you love Ballyhack, and who wouldn't? This has taken a lot of effort, and I know we all appreciate it.
Kevin,
Really appreciate your hard work with the diagrams. Surely for people who haven't played Ballyhack, but also in some cases for me, they've been really helpful in showing some of the contours that affect strategy.
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A few comments on the inward holes:
I'm one of those who thinks the short porch is the play on 15. Part of this is because I hit my 4-iron in the fairway at least twice as often as I do my driver. I'm glad to hear the opinion of those who know the course the best--Lester, Wade, Tommy--about the disadvantages of using the short porch.
16 is really interesting to me because it's labeled a Cape hole yet appears straight from the tee. It functions as a Cape hole because of the slope that Kevin pointed out in his diagram.
I love 17. With such a short approach shot, you really don't deserve an easy par unless you can stick it into the correct portion of the green. I'm sure good players like Wade and Tommy have never faced a recovery shot from the front right bunker to a back pin, but let me tell you all, that's one tough shot.
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Macro comments:
I played with a guy a few weeks ago who said to me: "I really like Ballyhack. I think it's a great match-play course." I believe Tommy expressed early in this thread that he disliked that label. I think it's rather apt, for a few reasons. (1) It's hard to avoid big numbers and post a low score, as evidenced by the VA Open scores. For high-handicappers, in particular, there will be many holes that cannot be easily finished while playing by the Rules. (2) There are so many different options on so many holes. I expect that when you're playing a match and you see your opponent or partner hit one into the gunch or pull off something heroic, your strategy is very likely to change. At so many courses, there's only one way of playing the hole: straight down the middle and as close to the green as possible.
On the severity of hazards and the potential for lost balls. Several pages ago, there was discussion about whether the bunkers' edges were too penal: whether there was too much of a fine line between a recoverable shot and an unplayable lie. I tend not to think of this as a big deal, and that the bunkers at Ballyhack are true hazards that players should take great care to avoid.
I do think there needs to be diligent effort to keep the fescue under control and allow errant shots to be found. Having to spend time searching for a lost ball significantly slows play and if the balls are not found, it's a severe penalty compared with when they are. It sounds like much of the fescue was marked as a hazard during the Open, which was a great idea. (Never thought I'd mention this on this site, but the course I played regularly in high school had several areas where a lost ball was almost certain but were not marked as hazards. Our coach implemented his own local rule, declaring them lateral hazards.)
If the fescue areas are kept under control, Ballyhack plays as a fine golf course that conforms with 12 of MacKenzie's 13 principles (save walkability) in an emphatic way. A terrific accomplishment for Lester and everyone associated with Ballyhack.
JB
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Gentlemen,
To be sure, there is history behind the tree on 18, and none of you would have removed it under the circumstances. Beside that, I limbed the bottom of the tree up so you could go-to-ground if necessary from behind/beside it. The bottom limbs are 10 to 15 feet above your ball. Even with my challenges of late and little practice, I can still hit a low cut. Moreover, unless you are totally stymied against the tree, there is a reasonable shot to the left side of the green with a generous run-up from the fairway. If you are stymied directly behind the tree you hit a miserable drive, or you may have been on the wrong tee.
To all, especially Tommy and Wade, thanks for doing this. I really enjoyed reading differing theories and opinions about Ballyhack. Although some were totally misguided, most were entertaining and thoughtful. I will continue to support those who support Wade and the George Cup at Ballyhack. I hope Jim Sherma uses the heck out of his membership and I know all of us will look forward to seeing all of you on your next trip to the Hack!
Lester
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Lester,
Care to elaborate a bit on the history of the tree?
Even at reduced capacity you must be quite the player- threading a 190 yard punched cut off an uphill hook lie with a perfect trajectory to go under the tree, rise above the elevation behind it, and sneak between three bunkers after a 220+ yard "miserable drive" into the prevailing wind (that's the shot I recall facing in the DC back on 10/11). Of course, I don't remember a 10'-15' "limbed" clearance either, but my memory is not good these days. That my triple lost the hole to a double might suggest that we were on the wrong tees, though we were already playing the third set. I know that we prefer wide and short on this site, but we've yet to bridge playing from the ladies' tees.
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Gentlemen,
To be sure, there is history behind the tree on 18, and none of you would have removed it under the circumstances. Beside that, I limbed the bottom of the tree up so you could go-to-ground if necessary from behind/beside it. The bottom limbs are 10 to 15 feet above your ball. Even with my challenges of late and little practice, I can still hit a low cut. Moreover, unless you are totally stymied against the tree, there is a reasonable shot to the left side of the green with a generous run-up from the fairway. If you are stymied directly behind the tree you hit a miserable drive, or you may have been on the wrong tee.
To all, especially Tommy and Wade, thanks for doing this. I really enjoyed reading differing theories and opinions about Ballyhack. Although some were totally misguided, most were entertaining and thoughtful. I will continue to support those who support Wade and the George Cup at Ballyhack. I hope Jim Sherma uses the heck out of his membership and I know all of us will look forward to seeing all of you on your next trip to the Hack!
Lester
I heard a rumor that all prior George Cup Champions were to receive a membership. Any truth to that? ;D
So after this thread has run its course, I am surprised how little chatter there has been about what a wonderful driving course Ballyhack is. I didn't realize it until Chris busted my chops about a few of my favorites--but there are a LOT of really cool, fun, tempting drives out there. That a number of those cool, fun, tempting drives end up biting me in the tuchas now and then I think only adds to the rush.
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I heard a rumor that all prior George Cup Champions were to receive a membership. Any truth to that? ;D
So after this thread has run its course, I am surprised how little chatter there has been about what a wonderful driving course Ballyhack is. I didn't realize it until Chris busted my chops about a few of my favorites--but there are a LOT of really cool, fun, tempting drives out there. That a number of those cool, fun, tempting drives end up biting me in the tuchas now and then I think only adds to the rush.
The rumor only applies to George Cup Champs who show up to defend their titles. :)
No doubt from me about the fun off the tee at Ballyhack. You can change lines or change clubs beyond the decision to change tees. It speaks to the elasticity that Wade refers to. Add in the variability of wind conditions, and you'll never be bored or lulled into a repetitive strategy at Ballyhack. And I can certainly attest to potential for bite marks from experience.
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I just returned from two days at Ballyhack. As I was walking, yes walking, to the first tee I looked toward the sixth tee and saw this.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/unnamed_zps76239aae.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/unnamed_zps76239aae.jpg.html)
Not only are the trees all cut down but the area is going to be maintained as rough. Interesting.
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I just returned from two days at Ballyhack. As I was walking, yes walking, to the first tee I looked toward the sixth tee and saw this.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/unnamed_zps76239aae.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/unnamed_zps76239aae.jpg.html)
Not only are the trees all cut down but the area is going to be maintained as rough. Interesting.
Wow! Never thought I pulled this much weight as a former George Cup Champ! All I said was "I'd love to see the view of the green less obstructed, simply for the temptation aspect." :)
Personally, I love the change. It will be interesting how "rough" the new area will be. Lost ball height or a spin-robbing few inches? As we discussed during the main thread, this is a really tough green to hold, even from the fairway, so the latter would probably not be iving people a "free pass" off the tee (the beauty of a well-designed green).
As I noted several times, any softening of the punitive edge of BH will only serve to escalate it even higher in the stratosphere. The design is so solid and challenging that it will never be a "pushover," even if the longest grass on the course was 2 inches.
PS - Did the reigning runner-up join you this weekend?
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Kevin: I think Jim is going to be here today and tomorrow.
WW
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Saw the work on #6 today. It's a good example of an inexpensive change that makes the course more playable for the average player without reducing the challenge for the accomplished player.
WW
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I was down Saturday and Sunday and played 54 in a nice brisk wind and low 50's temps. Much better than what we had up in PA. The course was in great shape for this time of year. I headed down with a friend who is fairly well travelled and the course certainly did not disappoint him. The work on 6 definitely opened up the views. I did not realize how much it was changed until I looked at the before pictures in this thread.
The hazard area left and short of the fairway is still staked and as I sadly found out on my first round is still potential lost ball territory. Is the plan to drain it so that it can be maintained as rough? The angle from there coupled with some primary rough would still be a difficult shot.
In some ways opening up the view of the green makes it harder to not choose a more aggressive line. The line of charm versus line of instinct dichotomy is much more in evident and therefor much more in play. I would not be surprised if you have more players ending up in the hazard area than before due to this.
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I was down Saturday and Sunday and played 54 in a nice brisk wind and low 50's temps. Much better than what we had up in PA.
Sure as hell was. Especially Saturday. I would have loved to see 45 and a bit of sun.
Really enjoyed this thread and this golf course. Thanks much for your efforts.
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The new superintendent has done a remarkable job in keeping the course ready for daily play and has used a lawnmower in a many more places. You still are punished for wayward shots but at least you can find them.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/image_zpswitfdxef.jpeg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/image_zpswitfdxef.jpeg.html)
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Ballyhack has some excellent par fives. Number two has all kinds of options off the tee and a third shot into a skyline green. Number ten seems designed by God the way it snakes around a big valley and number fifteen gives you options to hit the green in two, even for short hitters like me.
Number nine, however, had a major flaw. It took driver out of your hands. Oh, hitting a driver was possible but you had to aim for a sliver of fairway to the left of a nasty bunker. It could have been a principal’s nose but there was no fairway to the right of the bunker and hitting it over the bunker was not an option. The only real route was to hit something short of the bunker. To be sure it is better to hit the tee shot to the right side of the bunker or you have a blind second shot.
(https://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1020240_zpsb80ad712.jpg) (https://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1020240_zpsb80ad712.jpg.htmwidth=800l)
(https://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/P1040599_zps51010627.jpg) (https://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/P1040599_zps51010627.jpg.html)
(http://[color=rgb(115, 157, 155)][url=https://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/3B0CFE73-F266-491A-BFF2-62BFA729CC54_1_105_c_zpsm8l1tjaf.jpeg%5b/IMG%5d%5b/URL]https://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/3B0CFE73-F266-491A-BFF2-62BFA729CC54_1_105_c_zpsm8l1tjaf.jpeg[/url][/color])[/URL (https://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/3B0CFE73-F266-491A-BFF262BFA729CC54_1_105_c_zpsm8l1tjaf.jpeg.html)[/font][/size]]
The view from the bunker.
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The new owners decided to make an alteration. This past winter the bunker was moved to the right. This opened up the left side of the fairway and put driver back in the hands of most everybody.[/size]I have not played the new hole but Wade Whitehead sent me a couple of pictures with some commentary.The new bunker sits alongside the steep bank along the right side of the fairway. The bunker has two purposes. One keeps the tee ball from running down the hill and the other is penal.New view from the tee. (https://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/58A835D0-2061-4EEA-818B-5216B375DB9D_1_105_c_zpsivycfc9m.jpeg) (https://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/58A835D0-2061-4EEA-818B-5216B375DB9D_1_105_c_zpsivycfc9m.jpeg.html)(https://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/3B0CFE73-F266-491A-BFF2-62BFA729CC54_1_105_c_zpsm8l1tjaf.jpeg) (https://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/3B0CFE73-F266-491A-BFF2-62BFA729CC54_1_105_c_zpsm8l1tjaf.jpeg.html)
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The view from the bunker toward the green.
(https://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/12CAEE70-1BDC-4603-B0EE-344AE6ADF777_1_105_c_zpswbt8iveo.jpeg) (https://s136.photobucket.com/user/tomwilliamsen/media/12CAEE70-1BDC-4603-B0EE-344AE6ADF777_1_105_c_zpswbt8iveo.jpeg.html)
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From Wade:
From the white tee, I hit driver and it ran around the bunker and down the chute. I had 225 into the green.
From the next day back, conditions have not been dry enough. Driver rolls out to about even with the bunker. The left side is much deeper and does not reward the player with extra role. You have to take on the bunker to take advantage of the new contours. It’s really cool.
I am eager to get there and try it out. I still probably won't reach the green in two but it will be nice to hit driver.
Maybe Wade will chime in.
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A lot will depend on how the left rough is maintained. If the rough is lost ball gunch then I would think a lay up is still the prudent play since a good second still gets me to a 9 iron or less most days and I'm probably not long enough to be able to get home in two from next to the bunker anyway. If the left side is reasonable though the driver risk will certainly be considered by many. If you hit the driver like Wade then getting home in 2 is in play and it becomes a very cool risk-reward shot.
The way it was made the hole very one dimensional. Regardless of the tee I played the shot was to the same place just with a 3-wood versus a hybrid or 7-wood.
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The new tee on #9 is a terrific change. Lester did the work himself last November and the hole was closed (played as a par three) through the winter to allow grow in.
The right side was raised significantly (probably 12 or more feet) and the bunker is certainly in play if the player hits driver. As many of you recall, driver wasn't really an option before (unless the player was trying to fly the old hell bunker (a crazy play that rarely paid off)). Now, a drive hit near the bunker will funnel around it and down a speed slot, leaving a decision about whether to go for the green. A drive to the left side of the fairway doesn't run out and leaves a more blind second.
I've only played it a few times since it reopened as a par five and conditions have been on the wet side (thanks to watering following aerification). The change means lots of new choice, though, as opposed to the old design that pretty much required the player to lay up short of the old bunker.
I haven't hit a shot from the new bunker but I think the lip is just high enough to cast doubt on the shot. It's not an automatic layup but going for the green (or trying to nearly reach it) will be a brave play.
This winter brought other changes, too, including a redo of the bunker in front of the second green and a big modification to the bunker in front of the eighth green.
WW
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Very cool, the changes seem like they really improve the hole. On the old version, it was not just the hell bunker that took driver out of my hands but the risk associated with extreme slope to the right of the fairway (a bit like Calamity Corner at Portrush). As others have said, this change will make driver a more reasonable option and bring in more risk (on a miss in any direction) and more potential rewards.