Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on October 26, 2014, 10:08:33 PM
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in great condition.
The fairways are firm, fast and relatively tight and the greens are fast, firm and true.
Rounds are at 4 hours.
I played the Red and Blue with some fellows who had never been to Streamsong and they absolutely loved it.
They all indicated that they would return, which is probably the highest praise one could give.
We also met a foursome from Philadelphia who were playing Streamsong for the first time.
All of them loved both courses, although, they moved up on the back nine of the Red, which is very challenging.
They also indicated that they'd be coming back.
Even though the courses are on the same basic site, they have a different feel.
On Friday they had 270 rounds, Saturday, 300 rounds
The fellows from Philly were so enamored with the courses that they wanted to come back and play them on Saturday, but, they couldn't get a tee time as Streamsong was booked.
And, the rooms in the hotel were terrific, making a stay and play package very attractive.
I can't wait to go back.
Has anyone else played it recently and been impressed by the conditions ?
P.S. I know. 35K
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Played in March. First time. Red course. Amazing shape and a great layout. As good as it gets in Florida.
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Now that I live only about two hours from Streamsong, I find myself itching more and more to go.
Which course did the group you were with prefer?
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Streamsong is.....the best golf in Florida
Being that im from South FLorida, and have spent over half my life in Florida I can confidently say that i hate Florida golf more then anyone here or anywhere for that matter. Now that its been established that i hate FL golf, we can establish that i love Streamsong. How can i hate golf in FL when streamsong is in FL? Easy. Streamsong isn't in FL its in Narnia!
Im going back to Fl for thanksgiving and you can bet ill make the 3hr trek to get back to these courses. Hell id drive 1.5 hours just to be on a course that doesnt have water on every hole, and isnt littered with houses. 3hrs to streamsong is a no brainer.
Im not quite sure how they are doing, but id be real excited to hear that they are going though with the 3rd course. In order to be one of those top notch pure golf resorts you really need more than 36 holes. With a third course this place really could be a destination. The ultimate upside is that the prime season here is in the winter while Bandon is cold and windy, Wisconsin has shut down, Canada has shut down, and just about every other ultimate stop is a coin flip. Sure Cabot may become the "bandon of the east", but lets at least let streamsong become the "Bandon of the South".
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Played the Red last month with Pete B, yeah, the hot dog guy and loved it. Actually reminded me of the Irish course ar Whistling Straits. Only had time to hit the first 6 on the Blue, and think I might have enjoyed that a slight bit more.
Loved Pat's Ace hole, Blue 5 as Pete and I figured out how to get a putt from the middle of the green to the back right position in the bowl. Putt it off the bank on the front right bunker. Very fun once you figure it out.
Really liked the Biarritz 16 on the Red.
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Great way to use to 35k post...
Streamsong is a great spot, the best golf experience in Florida, in my opinion. If they build another course or two, it could rival as the best resort in the country. I never would've expected anything in Florida to look like what I experience at Streamsong
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Streamsong is fantastic. Great to hear the courses are in great shape - and even better to hear that rounds are 4 hours. Hopefully this holds into peak season.
I agree that the hotel and other on-site amentities (restaurants, etc) are also very good.
The biggest complaint I've heard about the place is that it "isn't Bandon" - which is kind of like complaining that a girl you met isn't Giselle Bundchen.
I'm looking forward to my 3rd trip there in March.
PS - Russell, #16 on Red might be my favorite Biarritz
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Sounds like a reasonable imitation of links set up for those without passports ;)
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Sounds like a reasonable imitation of links set up for those without passports ;)
I think you would like it a lot.
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Sounds like a reasonable imitation of links set up for those without passports ;)
I think you would like it a lot.
Agreed, Streamsong is much more than that
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Played the Red last month with Pete B, yeah, the hot dog guy and loved it. Actually reminded me of the Irish course ar Whistling Straits. Only had time to hit the first 6 on the Blue, and think I might have enjoyed that a slight bit more.
Loved Pat's Ace hole, Blue 5 as Pete and I figured out how to get a putt from the middle of the green to the back right position in the bowl. Putt it off the bank on the front right bunker. Very fun once you figure it out.
Really liked the Biarritz 16 on the Red.
Ditto on the Whistling Straits feel. I was hard to think that I was actually playing a Florida course.
My only complaint when I played the Red in March was the turf in the fairways was patchy. It almost looked like they had recently thatched or aerated.
Other than that I loved it. Wish I could have stayed in the lodge.
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Good to hear. I'm playing the blue on 11/6.
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...really good and really expensive....
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Jr, what really good destination golf resort isn't "expensive"? I can't tell you how many rounds I have over paid for at average resorts while attending a meeting and felt the need to play because like everyone on this site - we're golf nuts. ;)
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Bill I'm sure I would, I'm in the unfortunate position of having more venues to visit than time or money. In the last 18 months I've turned down games at some serious bucket list courses, two weeks ago I couldn't change an American Airlines flight to get a game at my favourite Long Island course.
Must get to Ireland one day, I've still only played Portmanock and Royal Dublin on a stag weekend.
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If we had but world enough and time. Oh, and money. Money enough too.
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Now that I live only about two hours from Streamsong, I find myself itching more and more to go.
Which course did the group you were with prefer?
Tim,
Opinions differed.
Some, like myself prefered the Blue, others the Red.
What was interesting were the reasons why some liked the blue and others liked the Red
Some felt that the Blue's greens were too challenging, others felt that the back nine on the Red was too long and too difficult.
What made playing more enjoyable, yet more challenging, was the breeze, a good wind that seemed to be constantly in our face.
J.R.
Golf is not a cheap game and resort courses aren't setting bargain basement prices.
With 270 rounds on Friday and 300 on Saturday, it seems that it's reasonably priced and that the "build it and they will come" theory is working.
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... the best public golf option on the east coast.
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Now that I live only about two hours from Streamsong, I find myself itching more and more to go.
Which course did the group you were with prefer?
Tim,
Opinions differed.
Some, like myself prefered the Blue, others the Red.
What was interesting were the reasons why some liked the blue and others liked the Red
Some felt that the Blue's greens were too challenging, others felt that the back nine on the Red was too long and too difficult.
What made playing more enjoyable, yet more challenging, was the breeze, a good wind that seemed to be constantly in our face.
J.R.
Golf is not a cheap game and resort courses aren't setting bargain basement prices.
With 270 rounds on Friday and 300 on Saturday, it seems that it's reasonably priced and that the "build it and they will come" theory is working.
While I certainly hope and wish for the best, I think it's yet to be seen whether or not it's working...for the long term.
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Only thing that I have to add is that it take a lot for a person who grew up playing links golf in Ireland to want to play a course in Florida.... but I had a great time there last March & expect to go there again in the not-too-distant future.
Patrick
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JR - do you have any reason to believe that it isn't working (whatever that means)?
Everyone I know that has been to Streamsong has loved it
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Doesn't 150 rounds on a public course make for a zoo? What does Pebble Beach average?
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Can't speak for Pebble, but foursomes teeing off every ten minutes for six hours gets you up to almost 150 rounds (144.)
That's a fairly steady pace for the starter but a pretty wide open course overall. Nothing close to a zoo I wouldn't think.
300 rounds- especially at this point in the year with limited daylight- sounds like a lot of rounds for a course that charges what Streamsong does. But I'm not sure what the norm is or should be at Streamsong (or anywhere else for that matter.)
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JR - do you have any reason to believe that it isn't working (whatever that means)?
Everyone I know that has been to Streamsong has loved it
Probably not in July or August. By contrast Pebble and Bandon are 12 months, although Bandon can be dodgy.
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Jon,
We played at a nice pace, in about 4:00, we waited a few times as the fellows in front of us had their struggles.
While Pebble Beach is great, the pace of play declines rapidly from the initial 4:00 hours.
With two courses 300 rounds isn't a big deal.
And at no time did we ever feel that the course was crowded or slow.
Remember, Streamsong is about as far west as Detroit and is in the Eastern time zone, so it gets dark later in the day.
JR,
If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?
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JR,
If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?
Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back. I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again. My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return. While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them. For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.
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JR,
If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?
Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back. I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again. My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return. While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them. For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.
Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.
And, the weather is dicier.
Overseas ? You must be kidding.
Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ? Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?
What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?
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For students of golf course architecture, the courses at Streamsong and the success the resort appears to be enjoying should be absolute proof that minimalism works, and is the future of gca. The place is pricey, in the middle of nowhere, with many other golfing options for consumers, and yet the tee sheet at SS is full. Good for SS, I can't wait for course #3.
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JR,
If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?
Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back. I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again. My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return. While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them. For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.
Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.
And, the weather is dicier.
Overseas ? You must be kidding.
Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ? Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?
What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?
Patrick, Id love to try and answer some of those rhetorical questions you asked.
Yes I would love to return to Streamsong especially in the winter!
and after doing some hours of extensive research i have come to the conclusion that streamsong is significantly easier to get to then bandon/overseas.
The truth is is that there is really nothing in the South (states that are warm during the winter) that rivals Streamsong especially if they were to get a 3rd course. For some reason the biggest criticism i hear about Streamsong is that "it isn't Bandon" and "id rather go to Bandon". Although these statements are true is this even really criticism? Today Bandon had a high of 61 and a low of 54 and a 70% chance of rain, inversely Streamsong had a high of 86 a low of 62 and clear skies. Although Bandon has a good batch of dedicated loyalists that will play in any condition (im going in 12 or so days) the majority of golfers will not. These very golfers who have no interest of playing "winter golf" should be flocking to Streamsong.
As Bandon gets a good bit of local business in the Off season (which remember are opposite for Streamsong and Bandon) Streamsong can just as easily pull from inn staters. Florida is the 4th soon to be 3rd most populous state. Fort Lauderdale and Miami are just over 3hrs away, Orlando is 1.5hrs, tampa is a little bit less. Bandon is 4 hours from portland and closer to Eugene and Bend, but those cities are no where close to the population Streamsong has in its proximity. Hell sacramento is almost 8 hours to Bandon. Although Streamsong happens to be in the middle of nowhere its remarkably close to various large population centers.
And finally one thing that is failed to mention when talking about the success of Streamsong especially compared to that of Bandon is the land. Although streamsong isn't on the ocean and will never be on the ocean (at least until the ocean rises a few feet) the Mosiac Company already owned the land, and had owned the land for a long time. In order to build those courses they didn't need to purchase several hundred of acres on the oregon coast. This is rarely brought up but i can only imagine what kid of edge this can give them financially. If they want to build a third and fourth course they can, because they already own the land. Hell im pretty sure they could build a 10th and 20th course if they needed it, dont they own like 15,000 acres?
Sorry but i just really like Streamsong. And i especially like the ridiculous hotel that looks like it was designed by a James Bond villain.
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I don't have a map in front of me, and I realize Streamsong is on the west side of FL, but is it really as far west as Detroit, as Pat suggested? Didn't realize FL was in the Southwest. ???
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I don't have a map in front of me, and I realize Streamsong is on the west side of FL, but is it really as far west as Detroit, as Pat suggested? Didn't realize FL was in the Southwest. ???
No, it isn't quite that far West (more like Cleveland, if you want to be precise), but his point about additional evening sunlight is spot on...Streamsong's winter sunset is 45-50 minutes later than NYC, especially advantageous on day of arrival.
I visited last February, loved both courses, and plan to return in 2015. I know several groups of guys (mostly from NYC metro area) that loved it enough that they plan to go annually (in addition to / in place of other FL options on either coast). An additional course (or two) at Streamsong would keep these same groups on site another 24 hours, as there are only a handful of truly great alternatives in FL. Most of those are quite private and all of them busy during the winter, making the premium cost of Streamsong worthwhile to many.
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I can see why someone who lives where it's cold, dark and miserable for 4+ months a year would think Streamsong's Florida location is an advantage over Bandon or the UK.
But speaking as someone who lives in the southeastern USA where it is hot, muggy and insect-plagued for 4+ months a year I'd say traveling to a hotter, muggier, more insect-plagued place seems less attractive.
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For students of golf course architecture, the courses at Streamsong and the success the resort appears to be enjoying should be absolute proof that minimalism works, and is the future of gca. The place is pricey, in the middle of nowhere, with many other golfing options for consumers, and yet the tee sheet at SS is full. Good for SS, I can't wait for course #3.
What exactly is minimalist about Streamsong?
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JR,
If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?
Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back. I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again. My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return. While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them. For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.
Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.
And, the weather is dicier.
Overseas ? You must be kidding.
Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ? Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?
What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?
My reaction to this is similar to Pat's - you must be kidding.
For those living in the Northeast US (which is what - 120 million+ people?) as well as the Midwest, Streamsong is an absolute no brainer.
Bandon is the best golf resort in the country, and I know that it can get somewhat warm during the winter - but it also gets flurries on occasion. It's also incredibly hard to get to, and only makes sense if you can carve out 4-5 days.
Overseas - same problem, and if you mean GB&I you must be kidding as far as weather.
As for the summer months, I would expect that to cater to locals within a couple hour's drive - no one is leaving the Northeast to go to FL in the summer, that should be obvious.
For a weekend trip of great golf during the winter, Streamsong is a fantastic option. Two fantastic (and different) courses, a short plane trip from NYC followed by a drive of just over an hour, and you never need to leave the place.
This discussion board never ceases to amaze me. I guess people can bitch and moan about anything.
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Of course Streamsong is going to be expensive if you go for 4 days, stay in the clubhouse, take caddies for every round, etc. I've done it for relatively cheap both times I've gone.
I walked and carried, played 36 in a single day and stayed off-site. For that, you're really not talking a lot more than a standard Florida course. It's a long day and it is a difficult walk, but it is do-able. Taking a cart for one round would only add $50 to the total.
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For students of golf course architecture, the courses at Streamsong and the success the resort appears to be enjoying should be absolute proof that minimalism works, and is the future of gca. The place is pricey, in the middle of nowhere, with many other golfing options for consumers, and yet the tee sheet at SS is full. Good for SS, I can't wait for course #3.
What exactly is minimalist about Streamsong?
I think nowadays "minimalist" means "design by a 'minimalist' architect". It's a recursive definition.
Or maybe it just means no waterfalls and few if any flower beds.
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I think nowadays "minimalist" means "design by a 'minimalist' architect". It's a recursive definition.
Or maybe it just means no waterfalls and few if any flower beds.
What does it mean to you?
To me, it means that we didn't move much dirt or re-shape the fairways. Streamsong (Blue) scores about 65-70% on that scale.
Really the main impediment to us building courses as minimalist as we used to is that we all have too many talented people on payroll and they all keep thinking of ways to improve what's there.
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I think nowadays "minimalist" means "design by a 'minimalist' architect". It's a recursive definition.
Or maybe it just means no waterfalls and few if any flower beds.
What does it mean to you?
To me, it means that we didn't move much dirt or re-shape the fairways. Streamsong (Blue) scores about 65-70% on that scale.
Really the main impediment to us building courses as minimalist as we used to is that we all have too many talented people on payroll and they all keep thinking of ways to improve what's there.
You didn't move much dirt but the mining company completely changed the earth before you got there. The course does not reflect the natural state of the land, which is part of what makes minimalism.
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Tom,
I'm afraid to me it means about as much as buzz words like "championship course" or "shot values". A decade ago when I came to this forum I thought I knew what it meant and the label tended to match up to my own preferences.
I've now seen "minimalist" overused to the point where it has lost whatever specificity it might have had back then. Or maybe it was always simply a loose term meant to convey the sense of "The kind of course we like" and I was too new to the GolfClubAtlas culture to notice.
Honestly, I've got to take it on faith when I read things like Ran's comments on Royal St. Davids. He doesn't use the word "minimalism" of course but he does comment on the absence of "harsh manmade features" and make similar judgments about that course not unlike what might be said about "minimalist" designs. I personally can't read a course in situ and tell the difference between a harsh manmade feature vs. a harsh one that was found already there, know what I mean?
P.S. Are the courses at Streamsong really totally, comprehensively, instamtly recognizable as being in a totally different category than Tobacco Road? Just to use one example of a course on reclaimed land, built by a designer that (to my knowledge) has never been labeled "minimalist".
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So much better than Whistling Straits in my opinion.
Way more subtle and enjoyable, the entire atmosphere is great.
Hard to pick between the two courses, but the back nine on the Red is rather challenging so I guess most people opt for a 6/4 Blue over Red.
For those who have not been, got to do it.
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JR,
If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?
Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back. I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again. My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return. While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them. For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.
Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.
And, the weather is dicier.
Overseas ? You must be kidding.
Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ? Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?
What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?
My reaction to this is similar to Pat's - you must be kidding.
For those living in the Northeast US (which is what - 120 million+ people?) as well as the Midwest, Streamsong is an absolute no brainer.
Bandon is the best golf resort in the country, and I know that it can get somewhat warm during the winter - but it also gets flurries on occasion. It's also incredibly hard to get to, and only makes sense if you can carve out 4-5 days.
Overseas - same problem, and if you mean GB&I you must be kidding as far as weather.
As for the summer months, I would expect that to cater to locals within a couple hour's drive - no one is leaving the Northeast to go to FL in the summer, that should be obvious.
For a weekend trip of great golf during the winter, Streamsong is a fantastic option. Two fantastic (and different) courses, a short plane trip from NYC followed by a drive of just over an hour, and you never need to leave the place.
This discussion board never ceases to amaze me. I guess people can bitch and moan about anything.
Well Kevin D - "bitching moaning" really? Well, if saying the place is really expensive is bitching and moaning then I guess I'm guilty. But at least I'm guilty of doing so under my name. And who even mentioned weather?
My point has again been blown out of proportion, which is a common theme here. Simply put, Streamsong is great...I've said that repeatedly. But, for me and my friends, Streamsong is a destination resort, it's not a pop-in, pop out place - and it's certainly not priced that way - maybe intentionally, maybe not. Either way, it's not my problem.
Pat - for my winter golf I can go down to Naples or Orlando or West Palm or Scottsdale, stay at friends places and play most anywhere. That's a pop-in, pop-out trip. For my resort/destination golf, which Streamsong is to me, I feel like I've been there, done that, with Streamsong. If I'm going to drop a grand a day, I'll prefer to do it somewhere more exotic in the future. And my crew seems to agree - yours may not. But, like I said, time will tell.
Bitching and moaning....please.
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Bitching and moaning....please. And who even mentioned weather?
It was probably me that brought up weather. I wasn't the one bitching and moaning though, that must have been someone else. ::)
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JR,
Is "complained" a better word for you?
You said that you would prefer to go to "Bandon or overseas"...my point is that neither is a great option in winter (assuming "overseas" is GB&I), and both take a lot of time to get to from most anywhere in the US. So it's a bit of a silly comparison.
By contrast, Streamsong is a relatively quick trip from the northeast, and one can play 54 or 72 holes in 2-3 days there on a couple great courses.
If you really prefer a weekend in Naples or Orlando, well, to each their own I guess.
As to price, I think you get what you pay for, but I acknowledge that not everyone will be able to afford the place.
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It's a bit better - but you read the part where I wrote that I've been there three times, right?
Expensive is a fact, not a complaint.
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It's a bit better - but you read the part where I wrote that I've been there three times, right?
Expensive is a fact, not a complaint.
Is it more expensive all-in than Bandon, at least during their respective high seasons? It looks like in mid-March 2015 you can pay about $550 at Streamsong for a night of lodging and 36 holes of golf one of the days. I don't think Bandon is any cheaper than that in June. And that's before you factor in airfare; for me, at least, it's way cheaper to fly to Tampa or Orlando than North Bend or Eugene.
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
Got it. For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.
In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years. While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
Got it. For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.
In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years. While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).
Private school? I have trouble finding three other guys willing to drop that kinda of money on a golf only resort. 20 high school friends dropping $40,000 on a weekend of golf, again, wow.
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
Got it. For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.
In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years. While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).
Private school? I have trouble finding three other guys willing to drop that kinda of money on a golf only resort. 20 high school friends dropping $40,000 on a weekend of golf, again, wow.
It's because you have been hoarding all of the downstate money. Do your fair share and treat your buddies already.
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
Got it. For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.
In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years. While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).
Private school? I have trouble finding three other guys willing to drop that kinda of money on a golf only resort. 20 high school friends dropping $40,000 on a weekend of golf, again, wow.
Public. We had 20 guys for about 8 years in a row, and then it died in 2009. I have my doubts that 20 will show up next year.
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I don't have a map in front of me, and I realize Streamsong is on the west side of FL, but is it really as far west as Detroit, as Pat suggested?
YES
Didn't realize FL was in the Southwest. ???
Miami is further West than Pittsburgh.
Didn't you UGA guys have to take geography before being admitted ? ;D
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I can see why someone who lives where it's cold, dark and miserable for 4+ months a year would think Streamsong's Florida location is an advantage over Bandon or the UK.
But speaking as someone who lives in the southeastern USA where it is hot, muggy and insect-plagued for 4+ months a year I'd say traveling to a hotter, muggier, more insect-plagued place seems less attractive.
Brent,
That's when the intelligent folks in the Southeastern USA head north for the summer. ;D
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Pat - for my winter golf I can go down to Naples or Orlando or West Palm or Scottsdale, stay at friends places and play most anywhere.
Stay at a friend's house ?
Nothing like changing the circumstances.
Where can you play a superior public course in West Palm ?
Ditto Naples ?
That's a pop-in, pop-out trip. For my resort/destination golf, which Streamsong is to me, I feel like I've been there, done that, with Streamsong.
If I'm going to drop a grand a day, I'll prefer to do it somewhere more exotic in the future.
OK, like where ? ? ?
And my crew seems to agree - yours may not.
But, like I said, time will tell.
Bitching and moaning....please.
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It's a bit better - but you read the part where I wrote that I've been there three times, right?
Expensive is a fact, not a complaint.
It's not as expensive as Bandon !
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Is it more expensive all-in than Bandon, at least during their respective high seasons?
Carl,
It's not.
I just came from a weekend in Bandon and the following weekend at Streamsong.
Both are great, but, Bandon, all in, is more expensive, far more expensive than Bandon, especially when you live in the Northeast.
It looks like in mid-March 2015 you can pay about $550 at Streamsong for a night of lodging and 36 holes of golf one of the days.
I don't think Bandon is any cheaper than that in June.
And that's before you factor in airfare; for me, at least, it's way cheaper to fly to Tampa or Orlando than North Bend or Eugene.
"Way cheaper" is an understatement, from the Northeast.
[/quote]
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
In principle, I don't disagree with your thinking.
But, in practice, in reality, tell us where that might be.
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
In principle, I don't disagree with your thinking.
But, in practice, in reality, tell us where that might be.
It could be anywhere - Bandon, Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Cabo....doesn't matter. It's just a big number to play at Streamsong...on a repeat basis...when there are other great places to go...a number much bigger than I thought when it was being developed.
Regarding the money, personally, I don't give a crap about the money. I make enough to go where I want whenever I want (wife and family and work? restrictions notwithstanding). But a lot of my friends care. Regarding West Palm, I typically don't play public courses. I typically don't play them in Orlando or Naples or Phoenix either...but even so, I certainly play those private courses much cheaper than Streamsong. For my friends, if they're going to drop a grand a day, it better be a ultra-memorable trip, a once in a lifetime trip. You think Streamsong meets that criteria? You think it meets that criteria for a repeat trip over a slightly more expensive golf endeavor?
As it sits now, I don't think it does...not for me, and I bet, not for that masses. But who knows, that masses may be bigger than I estimate.
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No, but it's commensurate. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.
Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida. And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back. That's all.
In principle, I don't disagree with your thinking.
But, in practice, in reality, tell us where that might be.
It could be anywhere - Bandon, Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Cabo....doesn't matter.
Of course it matters.
Bandon, Scotland and Ireland are "new" and more "exotic" ?
Spain, a golf destination ? ? ?
It's just a big number to play at Streamsong...on a repeat basis...when there are other great places to go...a number much bigger than I thought when it was being developed.
The problem is that the places you named are all more expensive than Streamsong
Regarding the money, personally, I don't give a crap about the money. I make enough to go where I want whenever I want (wife and family and work? restrictions notwithstanding). But a lot of my friends care. Regarding West Palm, I typically don't play public courses. I typically don't play them in Orlando or Naples or Phoenix either...but even so, I certainly play those private courses much cheaper than Streamsong.
Which courses in Palm Beach ?
I don't equate being a guest at a private course and staying at a friends house, gratis, with staying at and playing resort courses
For my friends, if they're going to drop a grand a day, it better be a ultra-memorable trip, a once in a lifetime trip.
Would you substantiate your claim that it costs $ 1,000 a day to play Streamsong.
I just returned from several days at Streamsong and want to compare my bill to your claim
You think Streamsong meets that criteria?
You think it meets that criteria for a repeat trip over a slightly more expensive golf endeavor?
From October to May......... YEP
As it sits now, I don't think it does...not for me, and I bet, not for that masses. But who knows, that masses may be bigger than I estimate.
270 rounds on a Friday and 300 rounds on Saturday would seem to indicate that you're wrong
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When Streamsong adds another high quality course, it will attract more golfers, and result in higher occupancy in the hotel.
As to price, it's a golf resort, not a local muni.
There were golfers playing Streamsong who came from near and far.
If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.
Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?
It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.
Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?
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If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.
Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?
It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.
Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?
Patrick:
I'm sure they will do as you suggest and hire someone else. However, I'm not sure it's that smart. Do you think Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes are too much alike?
I just saw a brand-new Nicklaus course in Nassau, The Bahamas last week -- hasn't opened yet. You might have mistaken it for my work, away from the water holes, anyway. Gil Hanse's work isn't exactly radically different from mine or Bill Coore's, either. Sure, you could tell them to design something radically different than the first two courses, and they are entirely capable of doing it. But so could Bill Coore, and so could I.
Unfortunately, many people's idea of "diversity" in golf architecture is just about having different names to market. But, I am happy you continue to be such a big booster of Streamsong. I'm going back for their Invitational in January.
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Tom,
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. Why would people mistake Nicklaus's new course for your work? Because of the aesthetics? Certainly you bring more to the table than aesthetics? Or, are you saying his routing, pacing, bunker placement and strategy are your style? If so, why?
Is Old Macdonald really a fair comparison? That was a course inspired by templates where you were co-designer and input was given from many people from Mr. Bahto, to Brad Klein, to etc.
I think it is unfair to discount other architects' work as "copy cat" work.
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Doesn't the Streamsong landscape compress various architectural styles? I can't even remember who did which of the two existing courses. No spot there for a Bandon Trails transition through nature.
Perhaps C&C could reprise Talking Stick North on the flat land, but it would only serve as a relief course. I'd love to see Doak tackle a dead flat site. He's got skills.
Bogey
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I am heading down there in the first weekend in January.
We have a house in Naples, FL area, but flights into Fort Myers were too spendy, so we are flying in and out of Tampa.
On the way back, we (wife and I) decided to check out Streamsong. So, on Sunday, less than 3 weeks beforehand - during one of the busiest holiday weekends of the year (I think) - we were able to 1) get any room we wanted at Streamsong and 2) get any tee time we wanted.
I will be there on Jan 3 and 4 if any other GCA-ers are there.....
Also playing: Calusa Pines, Hole in the Wall and Quail West.
Cheers,
Ian
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I am heading down there in the first weekend in January.
We have a house in Naples, FL area, but flights into Fort Myers were too spendy, so we are flying in and out of Tampa.
On the way back, we (wife and I) decided to check out Streamsong. So, on Sunday, less than 3 weeks beforehand - during one of the busiest holiday weekends of the year (I think) - we were able to 1) get any room we wanted at Streamsong and 2) get any tee time we wanted.
I will be there on Jan 3 and 4 if any other GCA-ers are there.....
Also playing: Calusa Pines, Hole in the Wall and Quail West.
Cheers,
Ian
Congrats, I am always impressed that anyone can afford to go on a golf trip with the wife. Try the skeet shooting at Streamsong, after the golf of course.
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Tom,
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. Why would people mistake Nicklaus's new course for your work? Because of the aesthetics? Certainly you bring more to the table than aesthetics? Or, are you saying his routing, pacing, bunker placement and strategy are your style? If so, why?
Is Old Macdonald really a fair comparison? That was a course inspired by templates where you were co-designer and input was given from many people from Mr. Bahto, to Brad Klein, to etc.
I think it is unfair to discount other architects' work as "copy cat" work.
JC:
Baha Mar, the Nicklaus course in Nassau, had all the turf mowed tight even from green to tee and from one tee into the next; it used bunkers as buffer between the turf and some exposed native rock; it had two par-4's under 310 yards; and it had undulating greens the way Jack never used to build ten years ago, but the way all of his new courses do. So, it's a bit more than the aesthetics which someone might think are unlike Jack's work and more like others'.
I didn't use the word "copy cat", you did. I just meant it's getting harder to tell who is doing what anymore, most modern designs are trending toward the same look regardless of designer. You hear that observation here all the time now, usually with a dig at us like "I wish nobody had said who the designer was before we saw these pictures, everybody would have praised the course thinking Doak or C & C had built it."
And, yes, Old Macdonald is a fair comparison. Like Sebonack, it might not be as good if I'd done it by myself -- but I sure knew how to build it and to make it different.
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I am heading down there in the first weekend in January.
We have a house in Naples, FL area, but flights into Fort Myers were too spendy, so we are flying in and out of Tampa.
On the way back, we (wife and I) decided to check out Streamsong. So, on Sunday, less than 3 weeks beforehand - during one of the busiest holiday weekends of the year (I think) - we were able to 1) get any room we wanted at Streamsong and 2) get any tee time we wanted.
I will be there on Jan 3 and 4 if any other GCA-ers are there.....
Also playing: Calusa Pines, Hole in the Wall and Quail West.
Cheers,
Ian
Congrats, I am always impressed that anyone can afford to go on a golf trip with the wife. Try the skeet shooting at Streamsong, after the golf of course.
Thanks, John.
It has been a 10 year project for me and today i can safely say that I enjoy playing with my wife. She is a very good athlete, can hit it 200+ off the tee and, if she could putt, would be a 16 hdcp. She picks up when she hits "8" or "dog balls".... :)
For years, she chose to use my old Wilson 8802 until I implored her to change. We can play 18 together at our course in well under 3 hours. A statement to which I know you are ambivalent.... ;D
And, yes, we have even played with our dog. But only after November 1 and before Apr 15 as I dont like to take the dog on course due to all the chemicals.
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If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.
Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?
It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.
Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?
Patrick:
I'm sure they will do as you suggest and hire someone else. However, I'm not sure it's that smart. Do you think Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes are too much alike?
I just saw a brand-new Nicklaus course in Nassau, The Bahamas last week -- hasn't opened yet. You might have mistaken it for my work, away from the water holes, anyway. Gil Hanse's work isn't exactly radically different from mine or Bill Coore's, either. Sure, you could tell them to design something radically different than the first two courses, and they are entirely capable of doing it. But so could Bill Coore, and so could I.
Unfortunately, many people's idea of "diversity" in golf architecture is just about having different names to market. But, I am happy you continue to be such a big booster of Streamsong. I'm going back for their Invitational in January.
Tom,
The Red is referred too as a C&C course. However a few times when referring to the Red you have only referenced Bill Coore. Was Ben Crenshaw involved in the design work on the Red course? I'm getting the impression not.
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I had also heard something to the effect of the Red having holes in which Tom designed, and the Blue having some holes that Bill and Ben designed. If Tom wouldn't mind commenting on that (or someone pointing to a thread in which this has already been covered), I'd be interested to learn that info.
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I had also heard something to the effect of the Red having holes in which Tom designed, and the Blue having some holes that Bill and Ben designed. If Tom wouldn't mind commenting on that (or someone pointing to a thread in which this has already been covered), I'd be interested to learn that info.
HB [and Rob]:
Bill Coore and I worked together to come up with the 36-hole routing for Streamsong. Bill had already done a couple of different 18-hole routings before I came along. I tried first to fit 36 holes onto the site [and came close], but we decided some of the holes he had laid out were too good to change to cram things in, so we wound up with 30 holes, and then he found the last six [the first six holes of the Red] by taking in some new ground we hadn't considered before.
Based on that, it is natural for me to think of the individual holes as "Bill's" or "mine" because I know who had the idea first. But, once the 36 holes were divided into two separate courses, we only worked on our own side with our own teams [except for a little bit of good-natured back and forth amongst our crews]. So the details of the holes are based on our own ideas, only the position of the hole might have come from the other guys.
Rob, Ben Crenshaw was involved with Streamsong the same way he's involved with all of Coore & Crenshaw's courses: he let Bill [and in this case, me too] assemble a bunch of routing ideas, and then he came out to walk the routings and suggest ideas of his own. We were going to leave it to Ben to decide which of the two routings would be theirs, but he said he was equally happy with both of them. None of us wanted to choose, in fear that the other guy would think he got the short end of the stick somehow. Once the decision was made, then Ben made his regular visits to collaborate on the design of the greens and the bunkers and the rest of the Red course.
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Thanks Tom, great insight into how Streamsong was created. What is the foundation of the routing? Interesting green sites or just the overall topography of the site?
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I tried first to fit 36 holes onto the site [and came close], but we decided some of the holes he had laid out were too good to change to cram things in, so we wound up with 30 holes, and then he found the last six [the first six holes of the Red] by taking in some new ground we hadn't considered before.
Tom..curious, was the 6th returning to the clubhouse on both courses intentional or just happenstance?
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I tried first to fit 36 holes onto the site [and came close], but we decided some of the holes he had laid out were too good to change to cram things in, so we wound up with 30 holes, and then he found the last six [the first six holes of the Red] by taking in some new ground we hadn't considered before.
Tom..curious, was the 6th returning to the clubhouse on both courses intentional or just happenstance?
Happenstance. From the above, you see that the first six holes on the Red were added on late in the process. Otherwise, there was always room for three good holes that came back toward the clubhouse [6 Blue, 18 Blue, 18 Red] but we couldn't work it out so that the third one was the 9th for either course, so we just took it how it came.
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If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.
Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?
It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.
Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?
Patrick:
I'm sure they will do as you suggest and hire someone else. However, I'm not sure it's that smart.
Do you think Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes are too much alike?
Tom,
NO, but I think you have to lend some weight to the element of "name recognition" and "variety"
There are golfers who love Nicklaus courses. I'm not one of them.
Others love Fazio designs and others love Dye designs, just to name a few.
While I have no doubt that you could build another terrific golf course on that site, from a marketing perspective, there's an inate appeal that comes with variety.
One of my major criticisms of Desert Mountain and it's six (6) Jack Nicklaus courses, is, if you've played one, have you essentially played them all ?
I know, "Outlaw" is different, but, it's "off property" and my favorite.
I just saw a brand-new Nicklaus course in Nassau, The Bahamas last week -- hasn't opened yet. You might have mistaken it for my work, away from the water holes, anyway. Gil Hanse's work isn't exactly radically different from mine or Bill Coore's, either. Sure, you could tell them to design something radically different than the first two courses, and they are entirely capable of doing it. But so could Bill Coore, and so could I.
Agree, and that was never more apparent to me after what I saw Fazio do at Pine Valley, I was amazed, so yes, I think you and C&C could design a different to radically different course, but, it would still be a Tom Doak or C&C course, and I think there's a segment of the broad spectrum of golfers who love the works of other "name" designers.
My perspective wasn't from an architectural point of view as much as being from a marketing point of view and appealing to a wider band within that spectrum.
Unfortunately, many people's idea of "diversity" in golf architecture is just about having different names to market.
But, that is a distinct reality.
How many developers retained Jack Nicklaus because of his name recognition ?
How many golfers bought a home in a development with a Jack Nicklaus golf course, because of name recognition ?
But, I am happy you continue to be such a big booster of Streamsong. I'm going back for their Invitational in January.
I think it's fabulous and I'll be back twice more this winter.