Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Josh Stevens on October 26, 2014, 07:15:56 AM
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Width, firmness, no rough, interesting greens, nice terrain, close cut bunkers, sandy scrub, lots of red wine?
Anything that will stick?
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A good post.
I've personally found myself glued to the TV at 1:00am watching amateurs, albeit outstanding amateurs, play golf. From someone that usually can't be bother watching the game on TV that's quite a change.
What's particularly pleased me is to here commentators at both events explaining to the broader audience the virtues of width and the short grass such width promotes. I do hope certain committees are listening.
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Unfortunately, my cable service doesn't have the ESPN channel that the event switched to for the last two days. Thus, I taped the first two days and probably missed the best of the competition. Yet, I agree that from what I saw, they had great commentary and observations were made as to the difference and allure that the maintenance meld with architecture presents in the Sand Belt presents vs our normal PGA fare.
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Sky were showing it in the UK and I'm glad they were as any opportunity to see Royal Melbourne is worthwhile.
atb
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I only saw a bit online, but from what little I saw and from what I have seen in the past, it seems that as golf architecture goes, Royal Melbourne presents better than any other course I've ever seen on t.v. As someone said on the other thread, I wish those who run the Masters would try to emulate RM.
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I only saw a bit online, but from what little I saw and from what I have seen in the past, it seems that as golf architecture goes, Royal Melbourne presents better than any other course I've ever seen on t.v. As someone said on the other thread, I wish those who run the Masters would try to emulate RM.
David,
RM isn't just nice on TV. If given the choice to play RM or Augusta on a regular basis, I'd take Royal Melbourne.
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To be fair, both the RM and LK tournaments were televised without the usual mob of buffoons that pollute our airways as they do in the US. They were both surprisingly good commentary and telecasts as the bad channel (10) was not allowed near them
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DMoriarty
Augusta could have emulated Royal Melbourne by paying MacKenzie for his work.
Josh
Karrinyup played really well and looked fantastic. Almost all the players seemed to enjoy it and understand what the course was about - width,short grass around the greens and well placed bunkers. It's a good course now - more now than just a pretty one.
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Mike,
And the credit, I do believe, goes to you. Well done.
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I learned, as I do each year when the Golf Channel televises the tournaments in Australia, particularly the Australian Masters in Melbourne, that we here in the USA would do well to pay more attention to how courses ought to be set up for both tournament and everyday play--width, short grass and little rough, bunker placement and proximity to fairways and greens (not adrift in a sea of rough), firm and fast playing conditions and a realization that a course does not need to be emerald green to be fantastic.
Mike, your work at Lake Karrinyup looks exceotional. I hope some clubs in the USA take note and send more work your way.
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It struck me that the more width you give these guys, the more wayward they become. LK is not as wide as RM, but is wider than most, and yet those blokes were all over the shop with their drives. Oleson the winner could barely hit a fairway and young Uihlein was playing his second shots from a different zip code half the time.
Perhaps I am old, but they seemed to be straighter with Persimmon , or at least the bad drives were not so bad.
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I learnt that Augusta National seems to be having a serious crack at taking over stewardship of the game from the R&A and USGA.
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Hm, good luck with that. Mind you, for us down here, swapping one lot of unelected, upper class, out of touch tossers with another bunch of unelected, upper class, out of touch tossers is hardly going to make a big difference. At leas they by and large seem to get short grass, although they still have a bit of a tree fixation
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Josh et al,
Perhaps you could enlighten those of us that are otherwise utterly ignorant about day to day golf in OZ. Is the appreciation of width the norm in your part of the world or is it, as is typical these days in Britain, limited to a few top end courses?
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Karrinyup played really well and looked fantastic. Almost all the players seemed to enjoy it and understand what the course was about - width,short grass around the greens and well placed bunkers. It's a good course now - more now than just a pretty one.
There were some nice comments from within the Sky TV commontary booth as to the changes to the Lake Karrinyup course introduced by MC-GO.
How much narrower did the course used to be and was the height of the off-fairway grass also lowered and if so by how much?
atb
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It made me jealous! The greenside bunkers eating their way into putting surfaces. The pull-carts. Pride and etiquette displayed by the RM members without the stuffiness.
As I played my home course yesterday afternoon I attempted shots I had never attempted before (primarily ground game shots: putts from well off the green, punched mid-irons running onto the greens, etc.) After my approach shot plugged 5 yards from the green in the middle of the fairway on #17 (a 220 yard par 3, that is clearly designed for run-up shots, I picked my ball up and went home and played bocce ball on the side of a levee. It was the closest thing I could think of to imitating RM. (it hasn't rained in 11 days, but the green complexes were squishy under foot. A maintenance issue; not an architectural one, but nevertheless one that needs to be addressed.) Maybe we should develop a mandatory superintendent/greenskeeper exchange program.
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Just made me even more excited about my trip ;D
Everybody has been so helpful and gracious on this site.
Inviatations to play everywhere...wondeful.
We are so lucky to have this great site and good feelings between its members.
Thanks to all.
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More importantly did Billy Payne learn anything?
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/10/26/chairman-billy-payne-loves-royal-melbourne.html
THE grand old dame of Australian golf, Royal Melbourne, can claim another convert after capturing the heart of Augusta National Chairman Billy Payne.
Payne, in Australia to attend the Asia-Pacific Amateur Championship, told a press conference on Thursday that he and his fellow members had been wowed by the iconic Melbourne Sandbelt club.
“I have been talking to my fellow members about the experience we're having and what we have seen here,” Payne said when asked if the tournament was likely to return to Australia.
“And I think it would be appropriate to say that what we have discovered in Royal Melbourne wildly exceeds our expectations.
“It is one of the greatest golf courses in the world.
"It's great to be here, it truly is.”
Payne, whose home club is considered one of the finest tests of golf on the planet, said he and his fellow members, several of whom have also made the journey to Australia, felt they had found a second home.
“I know I speak for every gentleman here in a green jacket,” he said, “we have found a place that we would like to call a second home.
“And I would, therefore, predict that you will definitely see this championship return to Australia in the not too distant future."
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I'm not sure why Royal Melbourne would 'wildly exceed expectations' It's hardly been a secret it is one of the best courses in the world.
What did they all think they were going to find?
I'm assuming Billy Payne hasn't read the Tom Doak like about Royal Melbourne being the course Augusta wants to be.
Thomas
We widened the fairways at 10 and 11 significantly - probably between 10-15 meters - by tree removal. 11 was a particularly poor hole, ruined by trees planted outside Alex Russell's original clearing lines - which he described as 'being sufficient for all time' back in the 1930s.
The members just couldn't help themselves after he had gone.
14 is wider on the left too - maybe 10 yards and there is a bit more room left of the 1st.
The fairways were already quite wide but it is a course where you have to drive the ball well.
The off-fairway grass heights didn't change at all.
Paul,
It's a good question re width in Australia. There isn't a poor course with wide fairways. Kingston Heath has some narrow holes but also some with plenty of space. Woodlands and Commonwealth too in parts.
Almost all the poorer courses in Australia feature predominantly narrow tree-lined fairways - and there are lots of them.
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Mike,
You may see things differently, but to me it still feels like only a small number of American golfers have seen Royal Melbourne. I was thrilled to see and play it a few years back during the Renaissance Cup and would much prefer it over Augusta on a regular basis.
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Tim
True enough - it is a long way away for you guys but it is a course everyone should see at least once. I'm sitting in the office here and it is literally five minutes down the road. The things we take for granted!
In Australia they would look at you as though you were mad for saying you would rather play RM than Augusta. As they say 'you are never a hero in your home town'
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It's easily the most intoxicating course I've seen on television.
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What are we to make of this statement of Mr. Payne speaking also for his fellow ANGC members that attended, when he said, " we have found a second home here."; if anything?
Of course for the majority of our treehouse gang a bit of excitement would ensue if a learning process occurred along the lines of adopting a bit more of the design and maintenance meld of RM, flowing to ANGC, on the theory and concept that much more of Dr. MacKenzie's ideals remain at Melbourne than can be found in Augusta in this era.
Would it be a pipe dream that ANGC might try yet another facelift by way of modern restoration-rennovation to get back to roots of the original design ideals as these travelling ANGC members may be realising? That being contemplated due to certain dwindling natural resourses and ANGC up until now being the poster child for over the top and perfectly artificially created Augusta Syndrome imaging, which is not an enduring quality for many more enviornmentally critical voices?
If they can be encouaged to make a modern approach change in their membership policies; is it possible they are opening their eyes to these issues as well?
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RJ
It would be a reasonable assumption Labor party voters are as rare at RM as Democrats are at Augusta.
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What are we to make of this statement of Mr. Payne speaking also for his fellow ANGC members that attended, when he said, " we have found a second home here."; if anything?
Of course for the majority of our treehouse gang a bit of excitement would ensue if a learning process occurred along the lines of adopting a bit more of the design and maintenance meld of RM, flowing to ANGC, on the theory and concept that much more of Dr. MacKenzie's ideals remain at Melbourne than can be found in Augusta in this era.
Would it be a pipe dream that ANGC might try yet another facelift by way of modern restoration-rennovation to get back to roots of the original design ideals as these travelling ANGC members may be realising? That being contemplated due to certain dwindling natural resourses and ANGC up until now being the poster child for over the top and perfectly artificially created Augusta Syndrome imaging, which is not an enduring quality for many more enviornmentally critical voices?
If they can be encouaged to make a modern approach change in their membership policies; is it possible they are opening their eyes to these issues as well?
I think this is all wishful thinking, regardless of how much we might welcome the influence of RM on ANGC, I don't see the powers that be or the general public clamoring for this. But it would be spectacular.
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Sadly, Australian golf played day to day by the masses is much the same as the US. Overwatered, over treed and covered in spongy kikuyu. It is just the top end that gets it, or perhaps more exactly it is the top end that is able to get it in having the funds to maintain proper bermuda fairways and the land to allow width.
Australian golf is very metropolitan. Most of our courses, and indeed our great courses are in the cities themselves, rather than being out in the country side as is more common in the US and the UK. Most then are now quite constrained in terms of land and with the modern game they cant remove the trees as that is often all that keeps people from being killed by errant balls.
RM is a decent sized property, but is beautifully routed in order to extract as much playing space as they can. LK on the other hand is a massive property, and they can pretty much do whatever they want.
As far as mowing is concerned, yes there is no rough at LK, or at least none where most of us might end up. The first cut is only about 10-15mm, just enough to stop the balls running down the hills and make approaches a little trickier. There is no retic in the woods, but grass does grow with winter rains, but it is regularly slashed out, especially at the start of summer. It speeds up play by eliminating lost balls, opens up the sand for interesting lies, and reduces the risk from fire and snakes - the latter two are quite important when you have spectators wandering about the place.
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Sometimes in the UK we hear about lack of water and drought in Aussie, folk capturing water from showers or the washing-up to water their pot-plants and lawns etc so I'm curious to know how the regulations work in relation to (over) watering golf courses or are the stories we hear just the media filling the airwaves at quiet times with 'interesting' stories without any real back-up to them?
atb
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Depends on where you are.
Perth is regarded as a dry city but actually receives more rain per year than London, or indeed Melbourne. The issue is that it very much a Mediterranean climate and most of that rain falls in the winter months. It is quite normal to receive no rain at all for 3 or 4 months over summer. In addition, the entire city is built on pure sand, and so it does dry out very quickly and looks more arid than it really is. The positive however is that all rain water instantly soaks into the sand. All of Perth's courses are irrigated with this ground water - but it is not endless and many clubs are now starting to pull back on turf area. There is a huge government program to re-inject treated waste water into the aquifers to maintain their levels.
As far as saving water at home, yes we do. Tap water is a far more precious commodity and we are careful with that.
Melbourne on the other hand is sort of sandy, but not to the same degree and so the ground water resources are not as plentiful. Sydney and Brisbane have very little but are more sub tropical and get a lot of summer rain.
Adelaide is similar to Perth.
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About 100 snake bites a year in Western Australia and we had our first death in a while two weeks ago. Karrinyup has three species capable of ruining your day. Fortunately the lake provides enough frogs to keep them fat and happy most of the time.
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What are we to make of this statement of Mr. Payne speaking also for his fellow ANGC members that attended, when he said, " we have found a second home here."; if anything?
Of course for the majority of our treehouse gang a bit of excitement would ensue if a learning process occurred along the lines of adopting a bit more of the design and maintenance meld of RM, flowing to ANGC, on the theory and concept that much more of Dr. MacKenzie's ideals remain at Melbourne than can be found in Augusta in this era.
Would it be a pipe dream that ANGC might try yet another facelift by way of modern restoration-rennovation to get back to roots of the original design ideals as these travelling ANGC members may be realising? That being contemplated due to certain dwindling natural resourses and ANGC up until now being the poster child for over the top and perfectly artificially created Augusta Syndrome imaging, which is not an enduring quality for many more enviornmentally critical voices?
If they can be encouaged to make a modern approach change in their membership policies; is it possible they are opening their eyes to these issues as well?
I think this is all wishful thinking, regardless of how much we might welcome the influence of RM on ANGC, I don't see the powers that be or the general public clamoring for this. But it would be spectacular.
I'm not surprised that Billy Payne had no idea what to expect at Royal Melbourne as I would doubt he's been to Crystal Downs either (though I believe there's at least a couple members of both). I do think he seems like a very smart guy and a little less insular than some of his predecessors and wouldn't be surprised if what he saw impacted the future at Augusta given his comments. Either that or they stick with their roots, do a hostile takeover of Royal Melbourne and bring Fazio in to restore the shot values. 50/50
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I'm not sure I get Mike Clayton's observation regarding unlikely to find Labor Party followers at RM as it is similar not to likely find Dems at ANGC and what that has to do with the statement by Payne about having "found a second home at RM".
Perhaps Buck's comment gets closer to my question. Whilst I think the members and guardians pride in their own RM would never succumb to any notion that RM could be "AUGUSTATISED"; it might be more credible that the powers that be at RM might consider a mid Dec to Jan., upgrade of a yearly invitational more imitating the ANGC Masters model in 'branding' and raising their economic profile. It might hold true that "money never sleeps; and ego never retreats". I wonder if ideas might get exchanged on a number of issues, some being as I mentioned with ANGC members giving consideration to those maintenance meld practices at RM, that give it the more authentic classic MacKenzie allure. Or, might there be some thought to a closer association with RM leadership to create a more profitable event modeled after the Masters operating formula that would put them higher on the world stage like a 5th major?
(not to denigrate or compete with the real fifth major held at Dismal River) ;D
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I'm not too sure RM needs to lift its profile, or wants to. It is a very different place to AN. It is run much more along British lines as just a local club for local members to bat a ball around in their weekly comp - not some national club for the elite to visit once a year. The place already gets overrun with visitors given its profile and so I don't think an annual event would impress the members.
Noted in news this morning, a bush fire at NSW Golf Club in Sydney. And you asked how we keep the rough down - we set fire to it apparently. Not quite a big as the one a few years back that had members being rescued by helicopter off the rocks, but will still do wonders for the place.
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Josh, that must have been one smokey fire given the area had experienced torrential rains of late. Wouldn't that have made the material quite wet for a controlld burn? Well, perhaps the snakes will crawl away... if there are any on that property. I don't know if the lads were putting me on or not when they teased about areas I went wayward in rough and they advised not to go look due to 'browns'.
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Holy crap, NSWGC is alive with them. Eastern Brown snakes, Red Bellied Black snakes, Tiger Snakes, Death Adders. If they don't get you the Funnel Web Spiders will. And then it seems, if you survive that, you get burnt to death. Keeps you on your toes.
NSWGC is covered in very flammable scrub, being a national park and all - fire is a natural part of its reproductive cycle as it clears the cover and cracks the seed pods.
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Gee Josh, I should just be thankful I survived! ;D
Maybe we learned that you have a greater survival rate in Melbourne than NSW.
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Maybe we learned that you have a greater survival rate in Melbourne than NSW.
That's because your chance of getting bitten by a snake while wearing skinny jeans drinking a macchiato in a laneway cafe is effectively zero! ;D
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At least snakes don't chase you up a tree and chew your legs off like your grizzlies.
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Here's a red-belly for you: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-02/snake-wrangler-catches-massive-red-bellied-black-snake-newcastle/5786950
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Depends on where you are.
Perth is regarded as a dry city but actually receives more rain per year than London, or indeed Melbourne. The issue is that it very much a Mediterranean climate and most of that rain falls in the winter months. It is quite normal to receive no rain at all for 3 or 4 months over summer. In addition, the entire city is built on pure sand, and so it does dry out very quickly and looks more arid than it really is. The positive however is that all rain water instantly soaks into the sand. All of Perth's courses are irrigated with this ground water - but it is not endless and many clubs are now starting to pull back on turf area. There is a huge government program to re-inject treated waste water into the aquifers to maintain their levels.
As far as saving water at home, yes we do. Tap water is a far more precious commodity and we are careful with that.
Melbourne on the other hand is sort of sandy, but not to the same degree and so the ground water resources are not as plentiful. Sydney and Brisbane have very little but are more sub tropical and get a lot of summer rain.
Adelaide is similar to Perth.
Josh
All courses in Perth operate with an allocation of ground water calculated on turf areas and species and all bores have to be monitored. Each course submits an annual report regarding water use and allocations are evaluated. Some have had allocations reduced
The sandy soils can become very hydrophobic and without regular applications of wetting agents will only allow water penetration in the top inch or so. We direct inject wetting agent weekly from October through to at least April.
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Im told Cottesloe is being forced to pull up turf in response to a reduced allocation. Not sure how the regulations differ from course on leased land to those on freehold
Why don't we reinject runoff into the aquifer like they are doing at Royal Adelaide. I am not sure what sort of machinery is required, but they seem to have met with some success in increasing the level and reducing the salinity
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Im told Cottesloe is being forced to pull up turf in response to a reduced allocation. Not sure how the regulations differ from course on leased land to those on freehold
Why don't we reinject runoff into the aquifer like they are doing at Royal Adelaide. I am not sure what sort of machinery is required, but they seem to have met with some success in increasing the level and reducing the salinity
Allocations don't vary because of ownership, its turf areas and species being irrigated. I think a couple of courses have had some reduction in allocations.
In regards to the reinjection of runoff, we have the herdsman drain running directly underneath us and that pumps around 10 gigalitres into the Ocean. We looked at tapping into it, injecting around 1.5 to 2 gigalitres back into the aquifer and refreshing a wetland area we have that has a stand of flooded gums, the problem is that local and state governments wouldn't agree on whose cost it would be to do the infrastructure work and then maintain it.
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http://www.examiner.com.au/story/2125842/snakes-found-in-shower/ (http://www.examiner.com.au/story/2125842/snakes-found-in-shower/)
After our days at Barnbougle/Lost Farm, we drove to St Helens and stayed in a charming cabin motel. It was spacious and had a very large bathroom walk-in shower with a window in the shower which had a screen and was open. On the bed was the local newspaper with the above story . The capture took place a day or two before.
Whilst we secured all the windows locked, my wife and I did not sleep sound learning that the two snakes were wrangled out of a motel property just down the road.
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Any snake stories you hear about mainland Australia, you can add a zero to the end for Tasmania. It has one of the highest snake densities on the planet as far as larger land masses go - and they are very nasty and very aggressive tiger snakes. I used to work on the west coast when I was young and I still have nightmares.
Why am I not surprised the government lets 10gl piss out to sea. And we vote for these clowns.
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I thought I read recently that OZ is a leading proponent for reinjection techniques back into dwindling aquifers. RM as you I folks know built a water resevoir. As I understood it, that resevoir is only adequate for a very short time emergency drought.
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Not sure how it works in Melbourne, despite being called the sand belt, it isn't all that sandy in spots. Perth and the western part of Adelaide on the other hand are pure free running sand down the centre of the earth. I suspect injection is a little easier, if you can collect it
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I was thrilled to see and play it a few years back during the Renaissance Cup and would much prefer it over Augusta on a regular basis.
Just curious, have you played ANGC?
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Isnt that perhaps another point. Anyone can play RM. AN is totally off limits. Perhaps another lesson to learn - accessibility
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Don't forget Billy Payne is an R&A member and plays St Andrews on a reasonably regular basis. What he sees through one of his memberships doesn't change the look of Augusta.
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The LPGA has a 5th major. On the theory that every enterprise seems predestined to grow and raise its profile; why not a first/fifth major of the calendar year in Melbourne? Following the ANGC Masters (tm) formula, is it a stretch to think RM could pull that off? But, would they really want to? I have no idea.
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...... that resevoir is only adequate for a very short time emergency drought.
Sometimes I wonder if a (water) restriction which forces use to pretty much 'desperate times only' isn't actually a kind of 'secret strength' in that over-use simply cannot really happen. Just a thought.
As to snakes and bites, do any courses keep anti-venum on site 'just in case'?
Atb
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No. Bites on golf courses are very rare, snakes are pretty timid if you let them be and we don't want some pimply faced assistant pro injecting people with anti venom. There is plenty of time to call an ambulance.
Heart attack is main issue and we keep defib machines on hand. Our 18th hole is not called Cardiac Hill for nothing