Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jay Flemma on October 16, 2014, 01:54:59 PM
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Played it Tuesday with many of the other Met Golf Writers. Pretty good, but not truly great. More like Long Island National with a drop of Bayonne sprinkled in than the Royal Birkdale or Whistling Straits we were promised. Too many straight-ish holes and not enough angles. Some great views, but also some ugl;y views too. Looks totally fake - not natural looking at all (like we were promised).
Cost 237 million to build. Will get a Barclay's or two, but I can't see a U.S. Open here b/c of all the projects. "Mr. Trump wants something bigger," said the course GM. But to me, the other NYC area venues are just flat-out a head above...what'll it replace? Bethpage Black??
Good things: the conditions were good but not perfect. We had a lot of rain so even though it dried out well, the fwys aren't F&F yet, although the greens were absolutely perfect...rolled so true you could putt with one hand. Good macro and micro movement too. They were rather mundane in shapes and almost never followed the axis of the fwy, bu that's okay. I think they could have been a but more interesting though.
The course is completely modern, nothing classic about it. It may trade looks for brains...
Anyway, I'll have an article soon. Meanwhile:
#7 short par four
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0085_zps6521341d.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0085_zps6521341d.jpg.html)
#3 Green w St. Raymond's Cemetery in the background - site of the Lindberg baby kidnapping money exchange
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0081_zpsb6eb0d9e.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0081_zpsb6eb0d9e.jpg.html)
These buildings are an eyesore
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0079_zpsa2718f8a.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0079_zpsa2718f8a.jpg.html)
18...the bridge - a great finishing view? Where will they put grandstands?
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0074_zps0913a1bd.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0074_zps0913a1bd.jpg.html)
Sixteen - long par-four, one of the holes I did like.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0066_zps56dce208.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0066_zps56dce208.jpg.html)
Lots of split fwys and center line bunkers, but it still played penal. Fwys may be too wide as if you tighten hem for majpr tournament play, it takes the bunkers out of play...
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0048_zps37ee72c2.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0048_zps37ee72c2.jpg.html)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0048_zps37ee72c2.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0048_zps37ee72c2.jpg.html)
I'll have more later tonight.
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Jay,
Thanks for your honest account. The pictures don't exactly inspire jumping on a plane.
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Thanks for this, Jay. I expect I'll have a hard time separating my judgment of the course from its rumored cost to residents (in the $150 range). While none of us in NYC were expecting a world-beater, I hope it ticks off enough architectural boxes to make the sting of paying almost twice as much as Bethpage Black (and 3x Red) hurt a little less.
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the emperor looks to be in good form (picture 2).
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You can't erase that it cost too much too build and was supposed to be a public course for the average NYC [public player to pay 80 bucks...then all of a sudden it became a rich man's plaything by NicklausSignature/John Sanford and will cost "well north of 100 dollars, just under 200," is the expected greens fee. everyone wins except the people who paid for it.
Design? Pretty good, but not truly great...and certainly nothing you've never seen before or better executed. It doesn't have the charm or old world feel of a Garden City Rockaway Hunting Club. (Doak 0/5) Still, the hype will win out, I fear...I hbet it debuts ridiculously high in the rankings, though...
At 237 million, doesn't that make it the 3rd most expensive golf course in history? Behind Trump Los Angeles and Liberty National? Courses shouldn't cost that much, especially not municipal courses...or courses originally intended to be municipal...
Call it "Bayonne Light"...
Another view of the approach on 7 - cute little cape hole
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0048_zps37ee72c2.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0048_zps37ee72c2.jpg.html)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0050_zps7f1ec604.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0050_zps7f1ec604.jpg.html)
Note the center line bunker, a common theme throughout. Great view of the skyline though.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0051_zps2d9d8b2c.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0051_zps2d9d8b2c.jpg.html)
15 approach
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0052_zps4e633f0f.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0052_zps4e633f0f.jpg.html)
The guy in the blue shirt just hit the guy in re d(A/K/A "Big Jah") ;D ;D with a line drive-skull-bladed pitch! Big Jah took it in stride, though. "I couldn't get out of the way fast enough! If anything I moved into it's path" :):) Oh you wacky kids:)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/jaygolfusa/IMG_0054_zps3a2f9f3e.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/jaygolfusa/media/IMG_0054_zps3a2f9f3e.jpg.html)
And, no, that's not the Emperor:):)
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While I enjoyed the golf course and thought is was truly unique, I don't think it would be good for typical tour event let alone a major. I described to friends as Bayonne light. I think its a course that the tour guys would absolutey take apart.
I think over time when the course matures and they let the fescue come in it will be much better. My gut is if they had an extra 15 acres it would have been a better golf course, at least the routing would have been smoother.
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The $237 million number is deceiving, I think alot of that was spent on capping the landlfill. Thats a expense that would have happened if there wasnt a golf course there.
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The $237 million number is deceiving, I think alot of that was spent on capping the landlfill. Thats a expense that would have happened if there wasnt a golf course there.
And paying people $100/hour to fill a generator with gas once during an 8 hour shift.
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Jay, high rankings or not, I think many or most on this site will underrate the golf course. Having seen the course but not played it, I will say that I can't wait to get back out there.
Two quick points:
1) the 'ugly views' could equally be called character. Let's not forget this golf course was built in the Bronx. Would you have preferred a line of trees surrounding the property?
2) I hope your review discusses the contouring on and around the greens
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It seems to me that we stereotype the extent of the wealth on Wall Street and the corporate canyons of the Big Apple. We should recognise tat not all of the 100s of thousands of folks that work in the NYC big biz and small biz and "other" enterprises are making "mega-millions" of dollars a year in salary and bonus. I dare say that a huge percentage of those 100s of thousands of working men and women only make a NYC subsistance 250K to 500K a year. And, I dare say there are many 1000s that while they make a mere million a year or so, surely can't afford a proper NYC country club membership at the real deal clubs of Long Island and the metro area. So, where are these lesser compensated 1000s gonna play there golf and get their golf on? This must certainly be why Mr. Trump in his munificence has participated in this community project. That golf does not suffer more for lack of the workaday folk accessability - those that keep Wall Street churning, and that they don't make the big bucks, and that they have this community asset to spread the exposure to the game... all "that" Mr Trump supports, I'm sure. ::)
From Mr. Klein's Golfweek writing:
"It’s a spectacular piece of land, a major-championship site literally right next to everything, in the city,” Trump said. “It’s important for golf. Golf has been suffering lately, and it’s a major course in the biggest city in the world.”
This municipal venue is well within basic affordability of the large body of workers in NYC commerce and enterprise that only make a middle class living. ;) ::) ;D
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Mark, the character of the neighborhood is the issue - perhaps a berm a la what Doak did at Rawls Course might have worked in places? Or taller dunes? Thise ideas both have worked in other places...and at Bayonne, the charm of the neighborhood is much more palpable than the feel of the environs at Ferry Point. At Bayonne you have the 7 sisters, the flagpole hole, the cranes, the church and natural ;looking dunes with long ridges...at Ferry Point, the places is pretty flat, and features smokestacks, projects, bridges, cemeteries and landfill?
The green contouring, you ask? Well how come you can only play the ground game sometimes and other times a center-line bunker is in the way? How manufactured do those green surrounds look? How cookie cutter? The flip side is yes, there are many green-side options, but again..."pretty good" but not truly great.
And this is what we do here: we split hairs between the pretty good and truly great...
They want to be considered for a major and for high rankings, but which of the following courses do you think Ferry point is better than?
Rockaway Hunting Club
Winged Foot (either)
Garden City
Sleepy Hollow
Shinny
National
Forsgate
North Shore
Sebonack
Fisher's Island
Friar's Head
Bayonne
Bethpage Black
I'd say it's better than one...maybe two of those...
It'll probably win best new course the year it opens though because people will want to overrate it for whatever reason.
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This is from an outside observed judging solely on pics...but I like the views. If I'm playing a course in the Bronx I want it to feel like I'm in the city. I definitely don't want to look at a fake dirt wall.
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Jay, high rankings or not, I think many or most on this site will underrate the golf course.
As far as ranking the best public courses within an hour or so of NYC, I'd not be shocked at all if this were very near the top. There are maybe only a half dozen other courses that could claim to be serious ranking competition (BPB, BPR, Tallgrass, Ballyowen, Neshanic, Pound Ridge).
I haven't played it, of course, but it won't have to do much to at least be the best course in the city (the many charms of Marine Park and Pelham, notwithstanding).
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Mark, it's better than all of those you list except Bethpage Black...though when you factor in cost...
Pound Ridge is another good comparison/it's as good as Pound Ridge...though it cost six times as much! And had zero costs in dynamite! ;D :o :o ;D
Here's the kicker for me. When I got done, I didn't race to my cell phone to call Ran or Tom Doak to shout, "you have to come play here!" like I did with Old Town, Rockaway Hunting Club, and St. George's!
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I don't see anything wrong with the views. Artistically speaking, I prefer the honesty of projects over faux tuscany-cum-Mediterranean-cum-Greek Revival-cum-I have no idea monstrosities that seem to be popular at many courses.
Very excited to try this course on my next visit to NYC.
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Jay,
Having walked the course last year with Brad Klein and playing it 2X this year, I find myself at odds with much of your personal critique. I also respectfully believe you failed to understand the context with which it has been developed.
I don't know what materials the Trump Organization distributed to you, but I, for one, never heard any promises of Royal Birkdale or Whistling Straights. Your emphasis on "ugly views, the disruption of the ground game by "too many centerline bunkers," "lack of charm," excessive costs and comparison to Bayonne (an decidedly different course with a different economic model) speaks loudly not about the course, but about your aesthetic. It is also not a course to be compared to others that were built on better landforms, or decades back by esteemed architects.
Before I go on to rebut some of these misses, I'll add that you are correct about the greens being off axis and lack of distinct angles. The former is a common refrain to Nicklaus design design, though at Ferry Point, nearly every hole has a opening face to the fairways and permits run-up shots. Many of the guys I played it with used them quite cannily to approach preferred sides. It is far from a pure aerial course (and has to be given the windswept exposure of it's site). Lack of angles is most likely due to having to find 18 holes that need to be CREATED from flat, featureless terrain.
I don't understand your "ugly views" commentary. Is it because you expect to see upscale private homes, deep forests, or pristine Florida-style swampland? If so, that's pretty snobby, given that those apartment buildings, smokestacks, cemeteries, bridges existed long before this golf course and most certainly reflect the egalitarian nature of municipal golf....found on so many other munis throughout the US. I see you failed to mention the NYC skyline, LI Sound, or waterside park bordering the final three holes. Given your logic so many courses like Ballybunion (Cemeteries), Royal Dornoch (Trailer parks), Bethpage Black (power station smokestacks), etc...wouldn't make the Flemma cut. Sadly, you leave out that the views of the distant NYC skyline are wonderful and unique for a public-access course.
I wouldn't dispute its "lack of charm" but find me a newly built muni (save for Chambers Bay, that has such "charm." I agree with Mark Saltzman and think it's setting, views and very existence give this place plenty of fresh character. As for the "centerline bunkers interrupting the ground game, unless you've set out to go lawn bowling, I believe the architect's intent (and a decent effort at that) was to force the player to make decisions as to how to circumnavigate them off the tee and up to the green. Even the best players I've seen out there (Steve Scott) noted that "it's nice to have to make decision which side to tackle."
As for excessive costs, go ahead and attack the last 30yrs of NYC government waste and union graft. They are to blame. BTW, as Phil Lipper mentioned,it does require an uneconimical amount of $$ to cap a landfill. Just ask Paul Fireman. Eric Bergstol outsmarted folks by getting paid to dredge the Bayonne Harbor and thus had plenty more fill to create his golf pottery gem. The powers that be along the path of completing Ferry Point had no such option. This is the context in which FP should be measured.
Lastly, you mention you "didn't race to call Ran or Tom Doak to tell them to come play here. Likely, they had caller ID and certainly didn't need you to tell them what they already knew. Your examples of Old Town, St. Georges and RHC were on their radars long before ATT or Verizon sold you service.
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All righty then...
Didn't see that one coming.
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I reckon those buildings look great. Not an eyesore at all. No idea where Jay is coming from with that one.
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I assume that wasn't a typo $237m to build???? Holy crap, how in the hell will that ever make a dollar? Makes his Turnbury purchase seem the steal of the century
Actually looks moderately pleasant land however - is all that sandy dune movement real, or is that where the $237m went?
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There is nothing inspiring in those pictures.
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Jay
You seem to have a real problem with the cost of the project. Would you believe that everyone involved with the project had strong feelings in that regard also. You said this was a Nicklaus/Sanford plaything? Are you implying that they are primarily responsible for the outlandish price tag? As a writer, who is expressing your opinions in print involving concerns like price, since you have mentioned it several times, where has your investigation led you concerning the reasons for such a high cost? I would be interested in knowing where you are laying the blame, since you have only given that one inference.
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There is nothing inspiring in those pictures.
The Manhattan skyline and Bronx-Whitestone Bridge aren't inspiring?
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/2a/2ac2f6429f563b9afdb1e1e528dc164a0f7a1f9fc12293962246e068c7273870.jpg)
Seriously though, the course looks fine if unspectacular. Count me among the fans of the surrounding buildings.
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There is nothing inspiring in those pictures.
The Manhattan skyline and Bronx-Whitestone Bridge aren't inspiring?
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/2a/2ac2f6429f563b9afdb1e1e528dc164a0f7a1f9fc12293962246e068c7273870.jpg)
Seriously though, the course looks fine if unspectacular. Count me among the fans of the surrounding buildings.
I guess it just feels like home to me.
I am 100% apposed to "containment mounds". Draining into the fairways is just wrong for so many reasons.
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Jay, It was great playing golf with you today and I'm sorry I had to whisk out of there to get to LaGuardia to get back on the ride, but Kate (Beckinsale) wanted to get home and we stayed an extra day, just so I could join you guys today.
Its funny, to be home here now and seeing those images from earlier in the day, how fast a G5 will get you back to the coast. Comfortable too!
;)
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Jay, high rankings or not, I think many or most on this site will underrate the golf course. Having seen the course but not played it, I will say that I can't wait to get back out there.
Two quick points:
1) the 'ugly views' could equally be called character. Let's not forget this golf course was built in the Bronx.
The buildings were the only thing that looked old world linksy to me ;)
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I haven't been to Ferry Point so take my comments for the little they're worth - generally agree with Jay's views but his commentary here seems overly harsh. 1. the money is irrelevant...this is New York, the government has been involved and the project has taken years and years...as an architectural point I do not care what it cost. 2. The comparisons to Bayonne are interesting, though as Steve Lapper pointed out, not everyone is able to be paid to receive untold barges of silt to mold into a golf course. 3. Following on that theme, if Ferry Point had come first, and Bayonne was second, might Jay's relative preference be different? 4. (not to pick on Bayonne because I love it, but...) what is it about the vistas at Bayonne that one might prefer to Ferry Point??
Bottom line, Ferry Point seems like an engineering marvel, and it is IN New York City!! I am thrilled the project was brought to fruition, and willing to live with it being modestly behind one or two other 'urban links' if that is the case.
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Jay, It was great playing golf with you today and I'm sorry I had to whisk out of there to get to LaGuardia to get back on the ride, but Kate (Beckinsale) wanted to get home and we stayed an extra day, just so I could join you guys today.
Its funny, to be home here now and seeing those images from earlier in the day, how fast a G5 will get you back to the coast. Comfortable too!
;)
Tommy,
"C'mon, tell the truth. You and Kate were so offended by the Section Eight apartment buildings, lower-middle class row houses, cemeteries, and containment mounds at FP that you skidadled back after getting in that photo! It must have been soooo painful! :'(
PS...no more landing at Burbank....now that you're on the other side of the hill, time to use Santa Monica!! ;D
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Jay
You seem to have a real problem with the cost of the project. Would you believe that everyone involved with the project had strong feelings in that regard also. You said this was a Nicklaus/Sanford plaything? Are you implying that they are primarily responsible for the outlandish price tag? As a writer, who is expressing your opinions in print involving concerns like price, since you have mentioned it several times, where has your investigation led you concerning the reasons for such a high cost? I would be interested in knowing where you are laying the blame, since you have only given that one inference.
Jim, can you tell us, ball-park figure, how much the course itself cost, apart from the environmental requirements?
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The views of the bridges, the fact that it feels like you are playing in the city is one of things that I liked about it. I thought there was something amazing and unique about the course and much of it is from the location. That was the feeling that my entire foursome had, no one was saying "I wish we were in Westchester playing on course surorunded by $3mm homes.
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Why does the cost to build the course matter at all? All that matters is if it's good (especially compared to other public options nearby), and what the price to play it is.
As to the price to play, if it's $150 then it is for sure a premium to other NYC public courses (which if memory serves right are around $40-50 or so on a weekend?), and even to the wonderful Bethpage Black at $85 or so. But remember, the NYC public courses are generally nowhere near great courses, and most are not even "good", and are PACKED on weekends. if you start after 7am you should be happy with a 5 hour round.
Similarly, Bethpage Black is a bargain, but is nearly impossible to get on since the price is artificially low, instead of rising to meet demand (and the number of rounds you can book there per month is restricted). It's also a solid hour from Manhattan, sometimes much more if traffic is bad.
I haven't seen Ferry Point (other than driving by and flying over) but based on these pictures, and assuming the course is maintained very well (as are most Trump courses), the course certainly seems to deserve its premium pricing to your typical NYC public fare. I know if I were still playing pub links around the city I'd certainly hit it up at least once a month. Plus, it is very close to Manhattan, and presumably accessible via public transportation somehow.
One other point: Pound Ridge is also not close to Manhattan, and many have expressed issues with its design and playability (I haven't played it) - and it's $210 on a weekend. Ferry Point seems like a bargain by comparison!
So go ahead and debate the course's merits, or lack thereof. I'll reserve judgement until I play it. But the cost to build is irrelevant (and as mentioned, most of that has to do with environmental cleanup), and the cost per round seems pretty in-line with market to me.
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Jay,
I believe we may have met once like 5 years ago at Inwood Country Club.
Having said that, let me give you my feelings on Ferry Point as a 28 year old NYC native (much like Jaeger) who played his HS golf @ Dyker Beach and considers Split Rock the finest NYC course of them al, and remembers when the Ferry Point rumors first begun during the Giuliani administrationl:
- i can't wait for this place to open. okay so it's not what trump promised, but it's a truly challenging golf course that any NYC native can get on. I think the views are fine, you're in the Bronx, gotta live & let live there.
- I hope FP is smart and staggers the pricing, much like the black & red do: I feel like $80 for NYC Native, $120 for NY STate Native, $140 for nj/ct native & $175 for internationls & 47 other states would make a lot of sense. I hope FP does this to keep the hacks & 6 hour rounders away.
- my 1 gripe is that much like pelham bay / split rock, the course isn't greatly accessed by subway/bus.
a couple other questions:
- Jay you said you got on as a MGA Writer. For everyone else who's played FP already, how did you get on?
- follow up question is obviously, anyone want to help me get on this fall? We'll trade you a round or two at my club as barter for access.
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Jay,
I believe we may have met once like 5 years ago at Inwood Country Club.
Having said that, let me give you my feelings on Ferry Point as a 28 year old NYC native (much like Jaeger) who played his HS golf @ Dyker Beach and considers Split Rock the finest NYC course of them al, and remembers when the Ferry Point rumors first begun during the Giuliani administrationl:
- i can't wait for this place to open. okay so it's not what trump promised, but it's a truly challenging golf course that any NYC native can get on. I think the views are fine, you're in the Bronx, gotta live & let live there.
- I hope FP is smart and staggers the pricing, much like the black & red do: I feel like $80 for NYC Native, $120 for NY STate Native, $140 for nj/ct native & $175 for internationls & 47 other states would make a lot of sense. I hope FP does this to keep the hacks & 6 hour rounders away.
- my 1 gripe is that much like pelham bay / split rock, the course isn't greatly accessed by subway/bus.
a couple other questions:
- Jay you said you got on as a MGA Writer. For everyone else who's played FP already, how did you get on?
- follow up question is obviously, anyone want to help me get on this fall? We'll trade you a round or two at my club as barter for access.
Regardless of the pricing, I hope city residents are at least given some type of priority membership option to purchase—with earlier booking access, weekend tee time blocks, periodic tournaments/league play, or discounted rates. I hope they do something to try to build a strong community of local golfers and give residents some sense of belonging.
I have no illusions that rates will be priced relatively high, even for residents. My worry is that they get priced so high ($175-$250) that it becomes just another CCFAD filled with guys who are taking a weekend off from the country club or trying something other than Pound Ridge.
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Jay, It was great playing golf with you today and I'm sorry I had to whisk out of there to get to LaGuardia to get back on the ride, but Kate (Beckinsale) wanted to get home and we stayed an extra day, just so I could join you guys today.
Its funny, to be home here now and seeing those images from earlier in the day, how fast a G5 will get you back to the coast. Comfortable too!
;)
Tommy,
"C'mon, tell the truth. You and Kate were so offended by the Section Eight apartment buildings, lower-middle class row houses, cemeteries, and containment mounds at FP that you skidadled back after getting in that photo! It must have been soooo painful! :'(
PS...no more landing at Burbank....now that you're on the other side of the hill, time to use Santa Monica!! ;D
Steve, Yes! Santa Monica is the far superior private jetport!
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Tommy,
Glad to hear you were actually with Kate B. Someone was spreading a rumor you were hanging out with Kate Upton.
Very happy this was straightened out!
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Haven't learned much about Ferry Point's architecture from this thread but I have learned that Jay is a Met Golf Writer who has played Garden City, Rockaway Hunt Club, Bayonne, Old Towne and St. George's and has unfettered access to both Ran and Tom Doak. This has only whetted my appetite to know what he is preparing for Thanksgiving dinner this year since the Game of Thrones Cookbook is so 2013.
Bogey
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Tommy,
Glad to hear you were actually with Kate B. Someone was spreading a rumor you were hanging out with Kate Upton.
Very happy this was straightened out!
Tim,
So many women, so little time! It affects my golf game something dear. So bad, I can't even remember a single hole at Ferry Point! :)
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Haven't learned much about Ferry Point's architecture from this thread but I have learned that Jay is a Met Golf Writer who has played Garden City, Rockaway Hunt Club, Bayonne, Old Towne and St. George's and has unfettered access to both Ran and Tom Doak. This has only whetted my appetite to know what he is preparing for Thanksgiving dinner this year since the Game of Thrones Cookbook is so 2013.
Bogey
He also has a sore rotator cuff, but that's a story for another thread...
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Haven't learned much about Ferry Point's architecture from this thread but I have learned that Jay is a Met Golf Writer who has played Garden City, Rockaway Hunt Club, Bayonne, Old Towne and St. George's and has unfettered access to both Ran and Tom Doak. This has only whetted my appetite to know what he is preparing for Thanksgiving dinner this year since the Game of Thrones Cookbook is so 2013.
Bogey
He also has a sore rotator cuff, but that's a story for another thread...
Now, now boys. Lets not be passive-aggressive. If you have something to say stand up and say it.
Ciao
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I drove by FP a few weeks ago whilst crossing the BWB to visit Connecticut. Looked like an OK faux links course, but I wondered how one could actually get there and back without the use of a jet pack on one's back.
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I really do not want to get into a debate about costs, but since Jay has thrown the $236 Million number out there, we should know that this includes $55 million for 30 acres of adjacent new parkland and a waterfront esplanade. And an incredible amount of money was spent on the excavation and removal of municipal solid waste and other environmental remediation as mandated by environmental standards. As previously mentioned, this money would have been spent if the site was going to be used for ANYTHING.
Is the news REALLY that a long-term public project in NYC had huge cost overruns? Perhaps. But I am happy that a waste site was remediated and there is another public course golf option in NYC. The $150 weekend greens fee may seem high, but I believe the marketplace will determine the final price, as it should.
So let's start the real debate that we should be having on GCA.COM. How good is the course?
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Definitely looking forward to driving around the area when I'm in NY for the upcoming holidays...
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Kudo's to The Trump Organization for figuring out how to get the NYC Parks Dept to be realistic on pricing. The original RFP permitted greens fees to be above the other NYC parks courses, but not by this percentage.
Best of luck to them.
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I really do not want to get into a debate about costs, but since Jay has thrown the $236 Million number out there, we should know that this includes $55 million for 30 acres of adjacent new parkland and a waterfront esplanade. And an incredible amount of money was spent on the excavation and removal of municipal solid waste and other environmental remediation as mandated by environmental standards. As previously mentioned, this money would have been spent if the site was going to be used for ANYTHING.
Is the news REALLY that a long-term public project in NYC had huge cost overruns? Perhaps. But I am happy that a waste site was remediated and there is another public course golf option in NYC. The $150 weekend greens fee may seem high, but I believe the marketplace will determine the final price, as it should.
So let's start the real debate that we should be having on GCA.COM. How good is the course?
Bill
I am afraid the pix don't entice me to worry too much about the architecture given the green fee. Do you see anything that would entice you to pay $150 and up for a pop?
Put me down as one who thinks that sort of pricing for an NYC muni is stupid. The project has already succeeded in the clean up. Is there some compelling reason why the city felt it had to allow a firm to charge top whack pricing?
Sorry, I have a lot of time for the clean-up and little time for the course.
Ciao
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Top whack pricing? It's New York. A pint of domestic swill costs $11.
In a city with a cost of living that doubles the majority of major cities in the US outside the Pacific time zone, a $150 green fee is comparable roughly to an $80 or $90 fee elsewhere. It's still high for a municipal course, but hardly "top whack." I suspect the demand will reflect that it's priced fairly enough.
Also, remember that courses like this almost always have deals for off-peak play. I'd be surprised if there aren't twilight, early season, and late season rates that make for more reasonable opportunities to play the course.
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Top whack pricing? It's New York. A pint of domestic swill costs $11.
In a city with a cost of living that doubles the majority of major cities in the US outside the Pacific time zone, a $150 green fee is comparable roughly to an $80 or $90 fee elsewhere. It's still high for a municipal course, but hardly "top whack." I suspect the demand will reflect that it's priced fairly enough.
Also, remember that courses like this almost always have deals for off-peak play. I'd be surprised if there aren't twilight, early season, and late season rates that make for more reasonable opportunities to play the course.
So that means people in Brooklyn have more money for a $150 game of golf? You have lost me with the cost of living argument. I also think an $80 or $90 game of muni golf is well beyond average. Sooooo, at $150, Ferry Point is gonna have to be very special. Is it?
Ciao
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Top whack pricing? It's New York. A pint of domestic swill costs $11.
In a city with a cost of living that doubles the majority of major cities in the US outside the Pacific time zone, a $150 green fee is comparable roughly to an $80 or $90 fee elsewhere. It's still high for a municipal course, but hardly "top whack." I suspect the demand will reflect that it's priced fairly enough.
Also, remember that courses like this almost always have deals for off-peak play. I'd be surprised if there aren't twilight, early season, and late season rates that make for more reasonable opportunities to play the course.
So that means people in Brooklyn have more money for a $150 game of golf? You have lost me with the cost of living argument. I also think an $80 or $90 game of muni golf is well beyond average. Sooooo, at $150, Ferry Point is gonna have to be very special. Is it?
Ciao
Sean,
I don't have a clue as to where you reside, but if one were to use the free-market to determine a price for public golf only 10-20 minutes from one of the greatest concentrations of consumable income and wealth on this planet and then factor even the base cost of land for such an endeavor, $150 might well look like a bargain! Your argument about the pricing is specious and borderline silly.
Let's establish a few parameters before further delving into whether it's "very special," or not. NYC Parks & Recreation will set the baseline values for NYC resident, NY State resident and out-of-state play. No doubt, it'll be a sliding scale wedded to time and date. No doubt, Trump will add other charges (i.e. cart, range balls, forecaddies, etc...). I'd not at all be surprised if airline-like yield pricing was practiced here as well. Regardless, and no matter what is charged, the city will have a negative ROI for decades if not centuries to come.
Look at the local competition. Anything of some quality in the surrounding 40 miles is pricey, and or very difficult to reserve. Let's eliminate Bethpage Black as it's nearly alway fully-booked despite having some availability for those looking for golf's version of the dawn-patrol tailgate. Crystal Springs, Ballyowen, The Mansion at Chestnut Ridge, Pound Ridge or Centennial are probably the only legitimate apple-to-apple comparisons and they are all premium-priced.
It's a fact that densely-populated urban metropolitan areas cannot provide any contemporary municipal golf anywhere near the #'s you pretend to think reasonable.
Now look at the potential user base of over 10+ million people living (I have no idea what percentage are ardent golfers using public golf facilities) within those 40 miles and divide it by the # of available public courses. Shockingly small relative to many other locales, and especially those dotted with CCFAD's charging north of $100. By now you see the point. Ferry Point is a welcome addition to an overpopulated, underserved, public golf market.
Is Ferry Point very special? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think it's great fun to play and whilst not to be confused with Bethpage or Chambers Bay, it is a very successful effort at converting a dead-flat butt-ugly waste dump into something useful and most certainly will earn a spot into any discussion of better contemporary municipal golf.
Recently, a fair number of folks who are quite experienced with GCA, and used to consistently contribute to this site, played Ferry Point and all thought it a reasonably fun and worthy venue (don't expect all of them to post here as many have left for good reason). A few won't ever go there for personal reasons related to NYC's history of under supporting other courses or the operators self-promotion. Others who played it when I did, posted a while back and were unanimously impressed. Will it be good enough for you? Who knows? Try it for yourself and see, or condemn it sight unseen and declare yourself the Warren Buffett of the golfing public or better yet, the arbiter of all things pictured in two dimensions.
I'll top on the record on one thing though....at $150 it's definitely a bargain for that artisan-biscuit, triple-latte, Brooklyn-based bohemian who is paying $3500 per month for a studio loft in Williamsburg! :D
Cheers
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If the course is 'good and fun', $150 is a steal in NYC - there isn't a private club within 20 miles that one can join for under $15k/year (all-in), plus there is no initiation fee - can't attest to the quality of the course, but (if the travel logistics are manageable) I expect tee times will be difficult to come by!
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I don't think I've actually lost you, Sean. I don't believe you're dumb, and you haven't lived outside the US so long to have forgotten the law of supply and demand.
If Ferry Point is truly overpriced, the market won't bear the rate they are asking. If you truly believe that they're overcharging, surely you're willing to back it up. What would you like to wager that their peak in-season rate falls below $140 in the next two years? I'm betting it'll stay where it is or go up. Is it "very special"? I suspect it is special enough to draw players who want an upscale golf experience in the middle of the city.
Now, if you're just ethically uncomfortable with the rate they're asking for a course that was largely paid for with taxpayer dollars, then that's a different discussion and I can get on board with that.
The pricing conversation does make me think of another course that looks a lot like Ferry Point, at least in photos. Arcadia Bluffs is over-mounded in the rough areas, jarringly flat in the fairways, extraordinarily scenic, more expensive than I'd like it to be, highly corporate in atmosphere, and pretty damn fun to play. Ferry Point looks similarly overshaped and I think I would equally enjoy the surrounding visuals, even though they're quite different from those at Arcadia. My initial impression is that it looks more like a course that fancies itself as a "test of golf" than Arcadia, which I consider more openly quirky and playful in its design character. Arcadia certainly would never host a professional event with its occasionally outlandish holes, and I suspect I wouldn't enjoy the seriousness of the golf at Ferry Point as much as I enjoy Arcadia's willingness to get a bit out into left field. Nevertheless, I think I'd be happy to play it if I could catch a twilight or late-season deal and wanted to play golf in New York. Likewise, I happily played Arcadia Bluffs for $80 at the end of summer last year and would gladly do it again.
Having only seen photos so far though, that's all I can really say.
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??? :'( ::)
237 Million , are you kidding me ? Can I hope that this wasn't a taxpayer funded boondoggle , someone tell me it wasn't . I will hold my thoughts til I know the truth about funding . Will someone respond.?
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??? :'( ::)
237 Million , are you kidding me ? Can I hope that this wasn't a taxpayer funded boondoggle , someone tell me it wasn't . I will hold my thoughts til I know the truth about funding . Will someone respond.?
Archie,
Tough to say that's the real #.....Only the green eye-shaded dude buried under the 17th green knows for sure. Until recently, it was a clusterfcuk of epic proportions, spanning over decades and different administrations.
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$150 for a round at Ferry Point, considering the NYC market, is downright cheap. The course doesn't look overly great, but it is seems interesting enough for a public golf course built on top of a dump.
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??? ::) ???
Can I assume it was hundreds of politically connected contractors feeding at the public trough. What a disgrace .
When will we learn ..
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??? ::) ???
Can I assume it was hundreds of politically connected contractors feeding at the public trough. What a disgrace .
When will we learn ..
Archie,
Bingo!! Say whatever you want about Trump, but he finished the shaping of the last few holes and the grow-in on his dime. The only winners here...the unions and politicians. Who knows, maybe there are enough of them left with with their lined-pockets to sport the new greens fees?
Cheers
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::) ::):) :'(
Didn't think the Trump Organization was the problem , thanks for the info Steve .
I'm so sensitive to this because when we built Twisted Dune the local pols and their henchmen ruined our project. Then split with the cash , what a crime this pay to play is and no one seems to really care.
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Archie,
Yours is the story of exactly why I never went through with building KBM's otherwise brilliant design at Old Bridge, NJ. Although it would've been a great addition to the public golf scene in NJ, the political bovine were so blatantly lined up at the trough....all licking their chops. :P :P
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I really do not want to get into a debate about costs, but since Jay has thrown the $236 Million number out there, we should know that this includes $55 million for 30 acres of adjacent new parkland and a waterfront esplanade. And an incredible amount of money was spent on the excavation and removal of municipal solid waste and other environmental remediation as mandated by environmental standards. As previously mentioned, this money would have been spent if the site was going to be used for ANYTHING.
Is the news REALLY that a long-term public project in NYC had huge cost overruns? Perhaps. But I am happy that a waste site was remediated and there is another public course golf option in NYC. The $150 weekend greens fee may seem high, but I believe the marketplace will determine the final price, as it should.
So let's start the real debate that we should be having on GCA.COM. How good is the course?
Bill
I am afraid the pix don't entice me to worry too much about the architecture given the green fee. Do you see anything that would entice you to pay $150 and up for a pop?
Put me down as one who thinks that sort of pricing for an NYC muni is stupid. The project has already succeeded in the clean up. Is there some compelling reason why the city felt it had to allow a firm to charge top whack pricing?
Sorry, I have a lot of time for the clean-up and little time for the course.
Ciao
Sean,
Having read your posts about lesser knowm gems, and how you "upgrade" a course if it has lower greens fees, I'm sure there will be little about Ferry Point that will please you. You would rather find and drink a really good $20 bottle of wine rather than fork over $150 for a bottle of Caymus. No matter how good the Caymus tastes, that price will burn in your mouth, right? I get that and appreciate it. But keep in mind that there is SUCH a lack of high quality public access golf near NYC, that a $150 weekend greens fee is certainly not high. Take my son, for example. Twenty seven years old, decent salary living in The City, but not willing to pony up the money to be a junior member at my club since he'll only play it a few time per year. I could easily see he and his buddies going over to FP.
Would I pay it on a regular basis? No, I belong to a private club. (My average cost per round is much higher, but I don't ever do THAT math! :) ) But if I were younger and making a decent wage and not yet in a club, sure. Say all you want about the Donald, but every course that he operates is in superb condition and run in a first class manner. I bet the overall experience at FP will be pretty damn good, especially for golfers who do not belong to a private club.
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$150 for a round at Ferry Point, considering the NYC market, is downright cheap.
Cheap for who?
There's a market for high-end Mercedes and Ferraris. There are markets for $100 million yachts and London penthouses. But not among average people.
Golf/country clubs cater to the well-off. No problem. They are private. Charge whatever they like. Public courses, built with over $100 million of public money (or is that over $200 million?), should be accessible to the average person IMO.
I just saw some dollar figures on this project. Source is the NY Daily News, April 10, 2014: figures were compiled by the Independent Budget Office. City is paying $236 million to build the course and the public park/esplanade next to it. $181 million went to the course alone. The total is 10x more than the city/builders projected when they started the project.
The city contests that $181 million figure. “A large fraction of this [construction] cost was from the excavation and removal of municipal solid waste and other environmental remediation that we performed as . . . mandated by new environmental standards,” Parks Department spokesman Arthur Pincus.
But the city admits that the course itself, absent the environmental issues, cost $127 million to build.
So if these numbers are right, the city spent $127 million of the public's money to build a public golf course (plus another $110 million on related issues). It cost 10x more than it was supposed to. It plans on charging north of $100, and maybe north of $150. Maybe a bargain for the country club set. For the muni golfer it's extremely high.
New York is so big, with so much money, Ferry Point may fill its tee sheets. The price seems totally, outrageously absurd to me, though -- for a municipal golf course.
This has nothing to do with markets, btw. The market did not build this course. Government did, with the public's money. If green fees reflected the actual cost, I think they would have to charge north of $500 per round, and maybe quite a bit more.
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Bill
I have always been about getting good quality for a good price and sometimes $250 for a game of golf is a good price. I use pix all the time to decide where I will spend my money and in the pix shown, I am not seeing anything which justifies the $150 green fee. The second point is I agree with Jim, the entire golf side of Ferry Point is a travesty. To spend taxpayer money on a public access product whose price point effectively excludes a huge percentage of taxpayers isn't clever. How anybody can be in favour of $150 green fees for a muni is beyond me.
Ciao
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Why don't we wait and see what the greens fees are for a NYC Resident and a Non-Resident?
A golf course built a long the water in NYC--on a former dump--did anyone think this would be cheap?
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How much did it cost to build Bayonne? Similar situation--
If it is priced too high than the set that plays at Douglaston, Dyker, Clearview, etc. will stay right there. NYC courses have NEVER been in as good of condition and prices have stayed somewhat consistent over the last 10 years.
I've said it in an earlier thread, and I will say it again---If the NYC Junior Rate is not offered then there is a problem. I don't care if you guys have to pay $150.00 to play this course. Some things are high end, and it is what it is- but if the city decides to neglect the Junior rate, then there is a major problem.
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$150 for public golf in New York in a site that many casual players are going to want to come and visit for several years isn't outrageously expensive. They're going to get plenty of out of state play that will bring more money into the state than just the in-state play. When the novelty has worn off, I imagine the price will come down to something more reasonable
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$150 for public golf in New York in a site that many casual players are going to want to come and visit for several years isn't outrageously expensive. They're going to get plenty of out of state play that will bring more money into the state than just the in-state play. When the novelty has worn off, I imagine the price will come down to something more reasonable
+1
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How much did it cost to build Bayonne? Similar situation--
Bayonne is a private course. Unless it was built with public money, the situations are diametrically different.
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Jim-
Why? I am just looking at the nuts a bolts of the cost?
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M Shea,
For starters, Eric Bergstol, Bayonne's developer WAS PAID by a variety of entities to dredge the Bayonne Harbor, thus giving him fill and soil to build his course. Ferry Point's owners, the City of New York, PAID PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to truck in dirt to cap and fill a garbage waste dump.
Sean,
The original plans of nearly thirty years ago called for vastly cheaper greens fees, reflecting both a realistic budget and cheaper construction and operational costs. Surely even you can understand that the real travesty is neither the greens fee nor the golf side, but instead the ridiculous municipal waste ad graft that was enabled by the city. While it doesn't in and of itself justify a high greens fee, ANY potential bidder for the operating rights to the property was going to try to recapture their embedded costs to bring the final phase of the build-out (final few holes, grow-in, and facility construction).
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$150 for a round at Ferry Point, considering the NYC market, is downright cheap.
Cheap for who?
Considering that a the going rate for a NYC municipal golf course is $50...everyone? The market will dictate that a lot of people will make this their "home" course and play the majority of their rounds there. But for even the typical resident public golfer in the city, it's affordable enough to play once or twice a year at a $100 premium over their normal round.
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Greens fees that are too low are just as bad as greens fees that are too high. If too low, it becomes impossible to get a tee time, and you are condemned to play 5+ hour rounds (as is the case with most NYC munis).
Econ 101. It's not very complicated, people.
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M Shea,
For starters, Eric Bergstol, Bayonne's developer WAS PAID by a variety of entities to dredge the Bayonne Harbor, thus giving him fill and soil to build his course. Ferry Point's owners, the City of New York, PAID PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to truck in dirt to cap and fill a garbage waste dump.
Steve Lapper-
Do you know what it cost to build Bayonne?
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M Shea,
For starters, Eric Bergstol, Bayonne's developer WAS PAID by a variety of entities to dredge the Bayonne Harbor, thus giving him fill and soil to build his course. Ferry Point's owners, the City of New York, PAID PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to truck in dirt to cap and fill a garbage waste dump.
It is far lower than #"s thrown around for FP, a private number and I'll respect that.
Steve Lapper-
Do you know what it cost to build Bayonne?
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Kevin, I'm not sure I agree with that...the problem at most NYC public courses is that many of them use 8 minute tee times. (They did say something about 15 minute tee times at FP, a good idea I think.)
One question that I'm still investigating the was news article that ran last year about how the course was to be semi-private. I'm not referring to the story Jim found in April of this year, (still one of the best articles about the project), but the one where Trump first got the gig. Nobody asked about this on media day, sadly. But from what I'm being told, this isn't going to be priced in a manner where the everyday guy can go play it often...he'll have to wait for what one pundit called "coupon days." How many of those Trump will bestow upon us in his boundless generosity is an open question.
"Rich men didn't get that way by giving more than they get in return" - George R.R. Martin
One other thing, I'm thinking the initial greens fee will be more like $175...but prepare for that to go up sharply fairly quickly. The quote we got from the GM was "Well north of 100, just south of 200." But he also made us all laugh when he added, "Whatever we can get," because we knew what he was hinting.
Archie, you nailed down the exact point I was making: Joe sixpack in Brooklyn only gets to play it a couple times. The original idea here was a high end daily fee course for the masses that was weekend-affordable every weekend by anybody, not just occasionally by a few. Somehow, once the pols got involved (and others) that turned into a boon for the pols, the rich folks, and what happens to the everyday golfer? After all, he paid for it.
Yes, you're all right - Trump got it done. Good. thank God, because the story of it languishing like it did is an embarrassment. Given a blank check, the Parks Department showed what it could do - nothing. Now you know why the conditions of NYC public courses were so dismal for so long. Yes Trump also tries to run a place the way it should be run. But there are still also open questions about exactly how good that is - after all we are all reading just yesterday in the paper about the NJ casinos and the problems there.
Design wise it's good, just not really U.S. Open caliber - the fairways are too wide and if you narrow them, many of the bunkers are out of play. Also some of the center line bunkers aren't really where the pros hit their tee shots. The greens have good contour, not great.
BUT...the conditioning was absolute perfect, including the way the greens rolled - they were so true you could putt with one hand...and I did that a lot on the short putts. The other good thing is that you have all kinds of greenside recovery options - you have the whole palette of short game shots to choose from.
I guess I can overlook some of the tenement views for the "uniqueness" of the cemetery. I think the views of the bridge would jazz me more if there weren't so many cars and trucks jammed on it all the time. Diesel horns honking is a pretty weird ambiance for golf:):) But bottom line is it lacks the charm and character of the terrain and setting of the great seaside links. There's a few really good holes, but just nothing you haven't seen before.
Like I said before - pretty good. You'll have a great time there. Go play it, and have fun. And then - fairly and reasonably - asses where it sits on that list of courses I put together on page one. If you think it's better than those courses, say so and tell us all which ones and why.
P.S. Most of the city courses are now charging $70 on Saturdays to play (in the morning at least).
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Jay,
Are you disagreeing with simple economics? When you under-price something, you get shortages. Tee times work the same way as gasoline in the 70s.
I will in no way defend the waste and graft which I am sure has occurred all throughout the building of this project, which I am sure has occurred, as it does with virtually any NYC city project. However, as to who paid for it - that would be those who pay taxes in New York...which comes disproportionately from the "rich". You might forget that there is a pretty big % of the population who likes to play golf, is a mid-level professional (banker, lawyer, etc) but can't afford/justify belonging to a private club. The ~$150ish green fee will greatly appeal to this crowd, as well as "Joe Sixpack" who wants to occasionally try a nicer course than Dyker Beach.
All that said, I hope the course stays fully public, and allocates off-peak times to subsets of the population (juniors and seniors) whose ability to pay is lower than your average person, and perhaps also gives off-peak discounts to NYC residents.
Look - I have no skin in the game. I haven't played the course (and will probably play it just once after it opens for some time). And based on the pictures (which I know give limited information), I agree that it looks good, not great. I am no fan of Trump, but like some of his product (Doral) and will concede he runs and efficient operation. But I think all of this discussion of how much it cost to build, and how much the greens fees are, is just pointless.
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IIRC, Trump is getting 93% of the greens fee, city 7%. In return Trump is spending $10 million to build a clubhouse and operate the course for 10 years.
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??? ::) ???
Can I assume it was hundreds of politically connected contractors feeding at the public trough. What a disgrace .
When will we learn ..
Can't wait to see American Hustle again!
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Want more photos? Go here:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/FerryPoint/
Please, enjoy.
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NICE PICS.
Looks nifty enough to me.
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thank you so much for the pics. as i've looked through it, it reminds me ALOT of the seawane club on long island post its renovations... also has some resemblance to long island national / liberty national and that 7th hole reminds me of a par 4 at trumps place in palm beach where you can also try and drive the green.
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Man, I don't know what some people want. I could play this course forever. I can imagine the shifting winds and I'd get used to the sounds and smells. This is Nicklaus Post-Doak-Collaboration and don't tell me he didn't learn a little something.Thanks to Brother Joe for shooting every needed angle of the course to give us a true perspective of Ferry Point.
$150? I suspect that my Buffalo IS Teachers Salary would translate to a little more in NYC and I'd be able to afford 5-8 rounds a year here. I'd play on weekdays, when the freight would hopefully be a bit less. Failing that, I'd figure out how to sneak on.
Who cares if he doesn't get a major here? He might get a Web.Com, or a Barclays or something that will suit the Bronx just fine.
Judgement for golf. Next case.
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::) 8
Joe , thanks for pictures, as always , nicely done!
I know its a GCA site , but aren't a lot of you incensed at the utter debauchery of our ruling class in spending $261 million of taxpayer money on this job? How can they get away with this over and over again with no recourse for us to,say , thank you, may I have another.
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::) 8
Joe , thanks for pictures, as always , nicely done!
I know its a GCA site , but aren't a lot of you incensed at the utter debauchery of our ruling class in spending $261 million of taxpayer money on this job? How can they get away with this over and over again with no recourse for us to,say , thank you, may I have another.
Archie,
If it was only the "ruling class" who enabled this trough ??? ::) :P.
Sadly it was the corrupt Parks & Rec commission civil servants, unions, mobs, and worthless municipal contractors who perpetrated this fraud on the taxpaying citizens of NYC. But lets at least separate the $150MM+ number needed to remediate and cap the dump as necessary regardless of whether golf ever existed (or could) there.
A wonderful late NY Senator had a great line that applies here to all (including Donald Trump himself):
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts!"
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thank you so much for the pics. as i've looked through it, it reminds me ALOT of the seawane club on long island post its renovations... also has some resemblance to long island national / liberty national and that 7th hole reminds me of a par 4 at trumps place in palm beach where you can also try and drive the green.
I've heard good things about Seawane.
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Joe - great set of photos. I think you really did a good job at showing the elevation and shaping of many of the greens. The course looks quite compelling and I will definitely make an effort to play it a some point. There are some aspects that look artificial but that is to be expected. All in all it looks much better in this set of pictures than I expected based on the few that I've seen before.
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::) :-X
Thanks for the info , Steve. Not that the $150 million for reclamation wasn't tainted by the smell !
Pretty nice price to build the golf course though.
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I have followed this thread with interest as from my front door I could hop in the car and be on the first tee in less than 90 minutes. Some revelations by Jay Flemma spread out over a number of posts are as follows: "Bottom line it lacks the charm and character of the terrain and setting of the great seaside links. It doesn't have the charm or old world feel of a Garden City or Rockaway Hunting Club. At Ferry Point the place is pretty flat, and features smokestacks, projects,bridges, cemeteries and a landfill".
Imagine that in the BRONX, that's right the BRONX,NYC,NY you would have flat land and apartment buildings, smokestacks, bridges and at least one cemetery on the perimeter. Additionally there is enough traffic in the area that you might hear diesel horns. As far as the observations that I referenced above unless Jay enjoys being the master of the obvious they seem beyond superfluous.
Thankfully others have offered their take as well. You know just for balance. ;)
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Joe
Thanks for the pics. I enjoyed seeing all of them. I think you captured the place.
Two things that were missing that I would have liked to have been included...the putting green, practice green and range look from different angles. Also, these pics were without he wispy fescue growth, which I have seen and love on the forms. Thanks again, nice work.
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Joe - great set of photos. I think you really did a good job at showing the elevation and shaping of many of the greens. The course looks quite compelling and I will definitely make an effort to play it a some point. There are some aspects that look artificial but that is to be expected. All in all it looks much better in this set of pictures than I expected based on the few that I've seen before.
I'm very happy to read your opinion, Jim. I worked hard to present the course like my eyes saw it.
Since we've played together a few times, you might have been as impressed as I was to find how firm the place was. The entire course was that way, including the greens.
The ground game was in play in many places. And I was in a bunch of fairway bunkers; where my drives landed way short and ran 50+ yards! Gosh I loved it.
The greens were wicked fast. I wonder if the general play will like it that way. Maybe so.
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Jay - thanks for starting post on Ferry Point - I have not been there yet (I was there a few times back in the 1990's). I just drove over the Whitestone Bridge yesterday and it sure looks great from the bridge, I am looking forward to playing it especially since I am a native NYC kid who grew up in Whitestone, Queens. I have heard from a few guys that John Sanford and Jim Lipe did a great job. PS-for all you history nuts Jim Lipe and I worked together back in the late 1970's for Bill Newcomb who was the first guy to work with Pete Dye (and PS- bill was the best golfer of all the guys who worked for Pete). Also Jim was a great golfer - when I worked with him he was listed as a top ten player in Michigan.
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Joe
Thanks for the pics. I enjoyed seeing all of them. I think you captured the place.
Two things that were missing that I would have liked to have been included...the putting green, practice green and range look from different angles. Also, these pics were without he wispy fescue growth, which I have seen and love on the forms. Thanks again, nice work.
JWL, yes, my pics are a nice contrast to others available with the fescue grown in. At least I think so. :-)
I hope balance is found concerning the long grass.... the course is plenty challenging w/o and if fescue is all over, well, me thinks the rounds will take longer. Maybe a lot longer. ;)
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Joe
That is being addressed and I am confident that when the course opens that Greg Eisner, the super, will have that and the entire course in great shape.
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From the aerial picture in Golf Digest, all the holes look similar.
Long straight parallel fairways with the bumps outside the fairways.
It reminds me of the aerial of the Rees Jones course in Canada.
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How bout the jobs FP brings to the table, and has brought thus far..
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The fairway contours still look too flat, and especially too ordered, given the busyness of the surrounds. The more I see modern "links style" efforts, the more this approach becomes apparent to me. It's an uncanny valley problem that exposes it as unnatural if not anti-natural.
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Mike Nuzzo,
It's easy for many of the highly touted courses to look somewhat mundane from an aerial perspective. Unless the terrain is vastly unique with large natural features, or sufficiently large enough to allow for a sizable routing, it's a difficult taks to squeeze 18 holes into a smaller, defined single tract of land.
I think JWL might be best enabled to discuss the rationale behind the routing, however I can tell you that 18 plays to every angle of the ever-present windy conditions.
Mark,
The fairway contours have good, if not slightly subtle, movement. It's hard to pick up from the photos but they aren't nearly flat.
I'd ask you should an architect endeavor to make these features artificially busy?? Yes, it becomes a "valley problem" when mounding of any nature is used to define fairway widths, but if the entire course in decidedly unnatural in it's totality, should the ground heave to-and-fro in excess?? For example, other artificially-styled courses like Whistling Straights, Bayonne, and Streamsong vary in fairway contouring without excess and aren't critiqued as such. Given the waste dump remediation at Ferry Point, just wondering where the limits should be placed?
Cheers
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Steve - You go to such lengths to defend the containment mounding. There are other ways to solve the problem of having to build up and create a landscape at the same time. I have tried to explain this numerous times and you continually refuse to think differently and defend the mounding. I hope you are getting a kickback from the pipe salesmen! ;D #ignoring surface drainage is a sin!
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Jaeger,
I am only defending (or embracing) what has been built and exists today. I may no bones about what decisions were made, or when, on any of the construction or budgeting decisions. Ask JWL or others why. Ask them how many choices they had with which to solve drainage on top of a waste remediation cap? What alternatives were available at the time? I don't know...how do you???
I've got ZERO financial stake or affiliation in anything on the property and don't pretend to. Unlike you, I've walked and played the course and don't make my opinions and critical comments from behind a screen. I prefer to look at it through a golfer's prism, not a construction POV. The site plays fast and firm (even after sizable rainfall). That's what a golfer cares about. Myself and quite a few others who have played or walked it so far really seem to find more to like than not.
Like your past foolhardy comments about holes that you've decided are certain templates (Quaker #9 as a Redan ::) ::) ) you opine on things, albeit with limited experiences and limited knowledge. Wow! How does caddying and some limited work as a field hand with Renaissance qualify you to become such an unquestionable expert? How many courses has your esteemed Proper Golf built or worked on atop capped waste dumps??? How many have you seen across the world?
Your screen-based assumption that it's "ignoring surface drainage" is yet another example of your doing what Abe Lincoln reminded us to avoid way back when: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
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From the pictures, I think the course environment/aesthetic seems nicely contextualized for where it sits. The surrounding landscape, after all, is pretty much completely man-made, and the site for the course had to be manipulated greatly (and, yes, expensively) by Man in order to be what it is now, so why shouldn't the course reflect some sense of human interference with Nature?
Of course, this doesn't bother me because I reject the notion, held by many on this site, that golf courses necessarily must "look" "natural." GCA history has given us enough great courses built by significant manipulation of land to argue for a unity of opposites, IMO. Can we revere "Steamshovel" Banks and disdain the aesthetic pursued at Ferry Point at the same time?
Hope to see it in person sometime.
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M Shea,
For starters, Eric Bergstol, Bayonne's developer WAS PAID by a variety of entities to dredge the Bayonne Harbor, thus giving him fill and soil to build his course. Ferry Point's owners, the City of New York, PAID PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to truck in dirt to cap and fill a garbage waste dump.
Sean,
The original plans of nearly thirty years ago called for vastly cheaper greens fees, reflecting both a realistic budget and cheaper construction and operational costs. Surely even you can understand that the real travesty is neither the greens fee nor the golf side, but instead the ridiculous municipal waste ad graft that was enabled by the city. While it doesn't in and of itself justify a high greens fee, ANY potential bidder for the operating rights to the property was going to try to recapture their embedded costs to bring the final phase of the build-out (final few holes, grow-in, and facility construction).
Steve
It doesn't matter me who is at fault, but imo a $150 green fee for a muni is outrageous. Its highly suspect that a government would choose to compete in such a tight market. Then to throw fuel on the fire the green fee effectively excludes some tax payers who paid for the project. This is a tough double whammy to overlook. The course looks fine, but nothing which warrants the green fee...so it won't get my business. I hope 1) others love the course so the place can pay for itself and 2) nearby courses don't take a hit due to government intervention.
Ciao
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The first order of business for NYC was to remediate the waste dump and that was accomplished. That there is now a golf course there should be applauded. Did it cost too much and did it take too long? The answer to these questions seems pretty clear. That said the pictures look good and personally I love the backdrop with the bridge and the Manhattan skyline.The price point considering the location and going on the premise that the developer should have a reasonable expectation of recouping their investment seems reasonable. It won't take that long to determine what the market will bear. Looking forward to playing it.
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From Joe Bausch's pictures, the fairways and green complexes look to have alot of movement in them. I hope it plays as firm and fast as mentioned.
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My two cents--
1. $150 doesn't seem crazy to me for a good public course in that location, given the cost of living and other available public options.
2. Whether a municipal course should charge that much is a different question, and I can see the arguments for and against.
3. I like the surroundings and views, which make the course unique and interesting.
4. As for the course itself, I haven't played there, but from the pictures it reminds me a lot of the Nicklaus Signature course at the Peninsula on the Indian River Bay--which I thought was solid and fun but not overwhelmingly great.
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Isn't Bethpage Black also $150 (for non-residents) and municipal? Is it overpriced as well?
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Isn't Bethpage Black also $150 (for non-residents) and municipal? Is it overpriced as well?
Earlier posts in this thread suggested that Ferry Point might charge $150 for residents. I don't know if that's true. BPB is half that for residents.
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Back to the test of Ferry Point and not the economics--could it host a major? Can the course be hard enough to challenge the best players?
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Jaeger,
I am only defending (or embracing) what has been built and exists today. I may no bones about what decisions were made, or when, on any of the construction or budgeting decisions. Ask JWL or others why. Ask them how many choices they had with which to solve drainage on top of a waste remediation cap? What alternatives were available at the time? I don't know...how do you???
I've got ZERO financial stake or affiliation in anything on the property and don't pretend to. Unlike you, I've walked and played the course and don't make my opinions and critical comments from behind a screen. I prefer to look at it through a golfer's prism, not a construction POV. The site plays fast and firm (even after sizable rainfall). That's what a golfer cares about. Myself and quite a few others who have played or walked it so far really seem to find more to like than not.
Like your past foolhardy comments about holes that you've decided are certain templates (Quaker #9 as a Redan ::) ::) ) you opine on things, albeit with limited experiences and limited knowledge. Wow! How does caddying and some limited work as a field hand with Renaissance qualify you to become such an unquestionable expert? How many courses has your esteemed Proper Golf built or worked on atop capped waste dumps??? How many have you seen across the world?
Your screen-based assumption that it's "ignoring surface drainage" is yet another example of your doing what Abe Lincoln reminded us to avoid way back when: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
Thanks for all the glowing remarks about me! I critiqued a golf course which I haven't seen, you critiqued a person you haven't met of know anything about.
Also, thanks for the publicity! 2 of the 3 biggest names in golf architecture trust me to build golf for them. I will make sure you are on the list when Proper Golf officially becomes consultant at a LI club next week... PS - I beat out a Nicklaus guy... unanimously!!
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: :P :-X :P
I'm so opposed to government favored contracting jobs like this , As much as I love golf, wouldn't want to play it even if it was great ! sorry to see it get any press or support n this site .
Sooner or later , we need to stop this stuff!
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Jay, It was great playing golf with you today and I'm sorry I had to whisk out of there to get to LaGuardia to get back on the ride, but Kate (Beckinsale) wanted to get home and we stayed an extra day, just so I could join you guys today.
Its funny, to be home here now and seeing those images from earlier in the day, how fast a G5 will get you back to the coast. Comfortable too!
;)
Wow it is great to see and hear from you Tommy. It has been a long time, I am not quite the world traveler that I used to be before family obligations became so numerous. I hope that changes sometime soon and we get to tee it up somewhere...
To put in perspective how long it has been since we have played, you were traveling at that time by Chevy S-10 pickup truck vs G5 now. Although the G5 is undoubtedly faster and probably more comfortable, I am not sure it would have served us as well as your truck for getting through that tornado on our way into the Coachella Valley. And Im sure it wouldn't have elicited the same reaction by the security gate guard at The Quarry!!
Good to see and hear from you on here old friend...
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Mark,
The fairway contours have good, if not slightly subtle, movement. It's hard to pick up from the photos but they aren't nearly flat.
I'd ask you should an architect endeavor to make these features artificially busy?? Yes, it becomes a "valley problem" when mounding of any nature is used to define fairway widths, but if the entire course in decidedly unnatural in it's totality, should the ground heave to-and-fro in excess?? For example, other artificially-styled courses like Whistling Straights, Bayonne, and Streamsong vary in fairway contouring without excess and aren't critiqued as such. Given the waste dump remediation at Ferry Point, just wondering where the limits should be placed?
Cheers
Steve, it's not the apparent -- yep, just going by photos -- orderliness of the fairways or the busyness of the surrounds. (Well, maybe the busyness a little bit.) No, it's the gap, the difference, between the orderliness and the surrounding chaos that's jarring -- that presents an Uncanny Valley to my eye.
Whistling Straits has this problem, too, and just going by the photos I'd say Lost Farm as well. Streamsong Doak to my eye did not have this problem. Some lovely shaping there. In fact, Streamsong Doak I think is a good example of how to get this sort of thing right. (Barnbougle Dunes is another one.)
I'm willing to accept I am missing the reality as I'm just going off the photos, but I feel small-scale chaos in modern fairways, be they links, links-style or even parkland, is a lost art and sorely missed. Score one for Fairness and Order.
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Mark,
The fairway contours have good, if not slightly subtle, movement. It's hard to pick up from the photos but they aren't nearly flat.
I'd ask you should an architect endeavor to make these features artificially busy?? Yes, it becomes a "valley problem" when mounding of any nature is used to define fairway widths, but if the entire course in decidedly unnatural in it's totality, should the ground heave to-and-fro in excess?? For example, other artificially-styled courses like Whistling Straights, Bayonne, and Streamsong vary in fairway contouring without excess and aren't critiqued as such. Given the waste dump remediation at Ferry Point, just wondering where the limits should be placed?
Cheers
Steve, it's not the apparent -- yep, just going by photos -- orderliness of the fairways or the busyness of the surrounds. (Well, maybe the busyness a little bit.) No, it's the gap, the difference, between the orderliness and the surrounding chaos that's jarring -- that presents an Uncanny Valley to my eye.
Whistling Straits has this problem, too, and just going by the photos I'd say Lost Farm as well. Streamsong Doak to my eye did not have this problem. Some lovely shaping there. In fact, Streamsong Doak I think is a good example of how to get this sort of thing right. (Barnbougle Dunes is another one.)
I'm willing to accept I am missing the reality as I'm just going off the photos, but I feel small-scale chaos in modern fairways, be they links, links-style or even parkland, is a lost art and sorely missed. Score one for Fairness and Order.
Mark,
I understand the visual dichotomy you are experiencing. Makes sense that a perspective sans a dimension (as anything shy of 3D would reproduce) creates that perception. Artificial construction of dunes isn't necessarily an easy task and you're right, Doak at Streamsong did a better job (though I believe C&C used more dunescape there than did Doak). Natural sites like Barnbougle, Lost Farm, or a Ballyneal yield a very pliable canvas for the talented architect to work with. Waste dumps like Whistling Straights, Harborside, Old Works, etc... do not.
Interestingly, I'd say the the idea of mimicking Mother Nature's valley-dune-style golf architecture (i.e. Birkdale, Royal Aberdeen, Portmarnock, Portstewart etc...) is an admirable, yet near-impossible job to pull off. FP does a reasonably decent job of adding wave and contour to it's valley floor fairways, even producing semin-blind shots from different angles on several holes on the front nine. The pix don't quite reveal that, nor do they do it justice...but the fairways are indeed, anything but flat.
Jaeger,
Since you propose and promote yourself as a such an expert and "trusted builder of golf for the games....best," please teach us all how you solve the dilemma of draining a faux links-style across a remediated waste dump. We eagerly await your brilliance! ::)
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Mark,
The fairway contours have good, if not slightly subtle, movement. It's hard to pick up from the photos but they aren't nearly flat.
I'd ask you should an architect endeavor to make these features artificially busy?? Yes, it becomes a "valley problem" when mounding of any nature is used to define fairway widths, but if the entire course in decidedly unnatural in it's totality, should the ground heave to-and-fro in excess?? For example, other artificially-styled courses like Whistling Straights, Bayonne, and Streamsong vary in fairway contouring without excess and aren't critiqued as such. Given the waste dump remediation at Ferry Point, just wondering where the limits should be placed?
Cheers
Steve, it's not the apparent -- yep, just going by photos -- orderliness of the fairways or the busyness of the surrounds. (Well, maybe the busyness a little bit.) No, it's the gap, the difference, between the orderliness and the surrounding chaos that's jarring -- that presents an Uncanny Valley to my eye.
Whistling Straits has this problem, too, and just going by the photos I'd say Lost Farm as well. Streamsong Doak to my eye did not have this problem. Some lovely shaping there. In fact, Streamsong Doak I think is a good example of how to get this sort of thing right. (Barnbougle Dunes is another one.)
I'm willing to accept I am missing the reality as I'm just going off the photos, but I feel small-scale chaos in modern fairways, be they links, links-style or even parkland, is a lost art and sorely missed. Score one for Fairness and Order.
Really, Streamsong is a poor comparison for Ferry Point. We were blessed with a lot of features that were left over from the mining operation, that we incorporated into the routing, but didn't have to build [or establish vegetation - it was already there]. That's way easier to do successfully.
Also, it's easier to get the fairways on an artificial course looking right when you can cut valleys and fill mounds, as opposed to having to create everything by fill, as I assume Ferry Point had to do.
By the same token, I am struggling to think of anywhere in the 36 holes at Streamsong that mounding was added to separate fairways. The idea that every hole needs that sort of "definition" is what makes modern courses look artificial ... they are trying too hard. There are plenty of places on most great links courses where holes run parallel without any large features separating them, and that adds to the intimacy of those courses. We only build mounding either to block views of unsightly things off site, or as a feature in the play of a golf hole ... not to separate.
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I have played Ferry Point and can tell you without hesitation that it was a lot of fun to play. I'm not an architecture expert, but I've played enough golf to know that what's most important to me is playability and fun factor. Ferry Point (at least the day we played it with the fescue grasses cut down) checked both boxes for me. The walks from green to tee are a bit far for my taste, but the golf course is definitely walkable considering the gentle nature of the topography.
As you would expect, the golf course was in immaculate condition. I'm impressed that they resisted the temptation to open this year. As a comparison, I played Bayonne several weeks before it opened, and it wasn't nearly as well conditioned as Ferry Point is right now.
The course has nice width and the hazards are nicely placed within the driving zone. I appreciated and enjoyed the challenge off the tee and trying to determine the best angles into the greens. They did a really nice job layering the bunkers together on the sight lines off the tees. If I'm being picky I'd say they could have used small dunes in the fairways in place of or in addition to some of the bunkers to add some extra character.
The greens are very nice. They have nice movement to them, but are not too severe. They were rolling really well the day we played and i can imagine that at tournament speeds they will provide sufficient challenge for the tour pros, while at the same time remaining eminently fair. I'm not sure what speed they intend to keep them at for every day play, but they wont be boring even at slower speeds.
The lions mouth bunkers in the front of the greens are a bit repetitive but there are lots of other features (bumps, dips, plateus, etc.) out in front of the greens that make approach shots interesting. I do not agree with a previous poster that the ground game is not a viable option. I think hickories would be a blast...
The bunkers are not as severe as I would ideally like them to be as far as depth and slopes, but considering the course is meant for general public play, they are probably appropriately difficult. Aesthetically, they are a bit too pretty for my taste and will benefit from the wear and tear of public play. The rough around the fairway bunkers is lush and I had several balls get hung up in the grass rather than in the bunker. I'd prefer the edges be maintained lower and more ragged, but that's personal taste and probably a bit of an unfair statement as the golf course isn't even open yet and is technically still in grow-in.
As for fairway drainage I honestly only noticed one catch basin on 18 holes. Its not that there aren't more, its just that i didn't notice any of them.... and IMO if I didn't notice them... i highly doubt they will impact play or perception for the average golfer. The dunes or mounds (whatever you prefer to call them) are not continuous and are significantly less monotonous and hallway-esque than Bayonne. I can't say faux dunes are my favorite... but they aren't anywhere near as horrible as some have made them out to be.
In the end, I'm not ready to call it an architectural marvel (I'll leave that critique to the people far more qualified in routing and building), but I can report that I had a great time and I expect that the public NYC public golfer will too. As for tour events I have no idea... but since when did we start judging golf courses on their ability to host for those guys anyway?
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Nice summary Brian, thank you for that. I look forward to checking it out next year.
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Spread on FP in this month's Met Golfer:
http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/416463/38