Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on October 16, 2014, 12:35:06 PM
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The 'What design features do you dislike the most?' thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59728.0.html - came up with a whole host of interesting points. Design and maintenance are closely linked though, so what aspects of course maintenance do you dislike the most?
Me?
I'll start with slow, soft, overwatered greens and greens where dew/debris is not removed.
Next, length of grass. I detest long fairway grass - no roll - and semi-rough around greens.
I also dislike 1st and 2nd and 3rd cuts of rough - if you're going to bother cutting it, cut it low and let poor shots run further away from the fairway but still be found quickly.
Trees - a few issues - I don't like too many (small copses rather than avenues are generally okayish), certainly don't like tree limbs that overhang tees and don't care for trees with low hanging branches. I don't like trees close to the south sides of greens and tees (northern hemisphere). And as for planting trees as safety screens, I'd rather see where the other players are so I can then watch their incoming 1.68 missiles.
atb
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Your list is a pretty good one, so I don't have much to add. But I do dislike overwatering and unnecessarily soft fairways and greens more than just about anything.
I also dislike bunkers that seem to be adrift in a sea of rough. I don't much care for damp, clumpy sand that never has a chance to dry because of the irrigation system.
One other pet peeve is the use of long, gnarly rough next to greens--I don't like when the grass is cut at green-fringe-US Open rough length. The shorter the cut of the green surrounds, the better IMO.
Finally, it seems that some mowing crews often taken shortcuts when mowing greens. Often there will be swaths of greens, particularly around the fringes, that are uncut each morning. I don't understand the reason for that, other than to save time.
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Finally, it seems that some mowing crews often taken shortcuts when mowing greens. Often there will be swaths of greens, particularly around the fringes, that are uncut each morning. I don't understand the reason for that, other than to save time.
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Brian there is a very good reason and most clubs that triplex mow do not permiter cut every day. Nothing to do with lazyness but triplex mowers turning on the same line every day can cause extreme stress and loss of turf especially if the groomers are engaged. So reducing the clean up strip to 3 times a week rather than 7 times saves the quality of turf.
I would say soft overwatered greens are rarely the product of maintenance. In defence of greenstaff certainly in the UK they are educated enough to know not to overwater. We get a lot from the sky this side of the pond it is usually that.
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I wasn't accusing anyone of being lazy as much as trying to save time. I could see slipping mowing certain portions of a green away from the pin position if time and lack of manpower was a concern. But your explanation is very informative. I take back my original complaint. :-X
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Manicured rough in areas of the golf property that are not in play. Native grass w/o irrigation please!!
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I'll say instances where conditioning isn't uniform. That is, firm greens, with soft fairways and surrounds.
Of course, I'd love every course to play firm. But I'll take a breath here in the real world and understand that isn't always going to happen. But some consistency at least, please! If the greens are so firm that a shot can't be stopped on them, then allow some firmness in front of the green as well. It's hugely frustrating to know the only way to play a shot is to land it 5 yards short of the green, but also to know that if you do, the ball will simple sit where it lands.
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I really dislike the tendency of courses here in the US to surround every green and every bunker with rough...usually deep rough. It makes the game stupidly boring for those of us that miss most of our greens.
But there's another feature of greenside rough that I detest. It's the all-too-common tendency to pinch in the approach with "tits" of rough, even when there are well-placed bunkers.
This RTJ Golf Club photo is an example of what I mean, although not a particularly brutal one. I play a lot of golf with female amateurs, especially my wife, and this feature absolutely kills them, while having ZERO effect on better players.
As if a high-handicapper doesn't already face enough trouble. We used to play with a women whose ball got stopped by it so often we started calling it Mary Grass. She might have been in it 6-8 times in an average round.
If all they did was mow the approach out to the edge of the bunker, it would make a HUGE difference.
(http://www.golftripper.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Robert-Trent-Jones-Golf-Club-Hole-8-7-copy.jpg)
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Ken, tough picture angle on number 8. Doesn't show the approach and 8 is one of the widest at the Robert Trent Jones Golf Club. Maybe I don't understand your statement about 8 but you are correct on the rest of the course. Nevertheless, we are rebuilding all of our bunkers on property. Kyle Phillips is in charge of the project and after years of surfing Golf Club Atlas I think most will love it. Number 2, 5 and 6 fairway lines and bunkers complexes have been changed. Approaches on 2, 3, 4, 5 ,7 ,8, 9, 12, 13 and 15 are wider. All fairway bunkers have been shifted closer to the fairway. All green side bunkers have shifted closer to the greens. Most of the bunkers were detached, now they are not. Besides a bunker nose here and there it is 7/8 inch rye grass running into the bunkers. The Better Billy Bunker system is being installed and we manufactured a sand that matches and some will say is better than the best performing sands in the country. Check it out in the spring and I think you will be happy with the changes.
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greens that are so fast that UPHILL putts are crazy fast
super short fairways rendering pitching impossible thus reducing variety and creativity
fairways so fast the ball never stops till it hits rough and often roll the ball backwards, thereby all but eliminating anything other than a virtually level lie ;)
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Two bête noires:
Soft approaches that don't allow a bump and run
Rough in front of fairway bunkers
Unfortunately my home course features both of these conditions.
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White sand. Not sure it qualifies as a maintenance issue but nothing makes me cringe more than washed snow white sand. What is wrong with brown
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Excessively short height of cuts on fairways, approaches, chipping areas and GREENS in order to win the weiner measuring contest with surrounding courses.
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Perceived aesthetics at the expense of playability, in all its forms.
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- White Sand
- bunkers maint. everyday
-Fairways that haven't been blown off
-Over watered course
-Green speeds arms race, causing greens to be flattened and over watered to protect speeds at ridiculous numbers
-fairway clipping left
-lack of deep core aeration and drill and fill procedures
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Three feet of 2nd cut around greens.
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Overly fast greens for the given contours.
Followed by...
bunkers that are surrounded by long rough on the sides that your ball might approach them from. That defeats the idea of the bunker.
over-water fairways
not enough ball washers at the tee boxes :D
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Mowing lines dictated by ease of maintenance rather than architecture.
Having someone who doesn't understand golf setting up the golf course in the morning.
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For those citing white sand as an issue, I think I understand where you are coming from, but what about locales where the white sand is native to the region?
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For those citing white sand as an issue, I think I understand where you are coming from, but what about locales where the white sand is native to the region?
We would have to import brown sand here. The local supplier supplies a very angular sand that is like pro angle, but very white. Everyone in FL has this.
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Like most overwatered fairways can really detract from the playability of a course.
Another problem is when a chronic basic maintenance issue cannot be resolved and the super refuses to look to the outside for advice.
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bunkers that are surrounded by long rough on the sides that your ball might approach them from. That defeats the idea of the bunker.
At my club there are a couple of doglegs with bunkers on the inside corner. IF you challenge them just clear them by a handful of yards, soft turf and juicy rough gobble up the drive, whereas firmer turf and shorter grass would reward you with a nice kick into the fairway.
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Will, so you have to carry the bunker and the rough?
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1. Too many trash cans, ball washers and benches on the course.
2. Silly tee markers on tee boxes.
3. Yardage poles at 150 yard yards in fairway
4. Out of bounds when there is clearly a shot just 15 feet away
5. Flower beds on course
6. Obtrusive cart paths
7. The "Hogan" or courtesy cut in the rough from tee box to fairway.
8. Rakes placed outside of bunkers
9. Large clocks near first tee box.
10. tee boxes and markers that point the player off-axis
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7. The "Hogan" or courtesy cut in the rough from tee box to fairway
What is your reason for this? I think not having this is a pracfice I dislike. What's the problem with having a path to avoid walking through taller rough?
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7. The "Hogan" or courtesy cut in the rough from tee box to fairway
What is your reason for this? I think not having this is a pracfice I dislike. What's the problem with having a path to avoid walking through taller rough?
I love that cut, keeps your cuffs dry on a wet morning.
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7. The "Hogan" or courtesy cut in the rough from tee box to fairway
What is your reason for this? I think not having this is a pracfice I dislike. What's the problem with having a path to avoid walking through taller rough?
I love that cut, keeps your cuffs dry on a wet morning.
I get it.
It's part of my overall theme of less visual distractions on course. Roll of your pant leg, like Hogan did, and relax knowing that your waterproof shoes are also doing their job.
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7. The "Hogan" or courtesy cut in the rough from tee box to fairway
What is your reason for this? I think not having this is a pracfice I dislike. What's the problem with having a path to avoid walking through taller rough?
Agree--how can anyone who walks be opposed to this?
Never heard it called a Hogan cut before. I've only heard ladies' walk or pro's walk.
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Will, so you have to carry the bunker and the rough?
Yes. Maybe it was designed as such but clearing the bunker and staying in the rough is a major buzzkill.
All of our fairway bunkers are in the rough.
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I'm not sure there's too much which the treehouse won't universally agree on. Essentially, long, uniform grass in all its different forms, be it ruining strategy or greenside recovery options, too much water, too much sand and man made paths.
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I don't like the rough striped.
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Super tight fairways
I hate anything exclusive to the 1% who least need the assistance.
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Fairway striping which follows the shape of the hole. I've yet to see a situation where this looks good.
e.g.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5ibi-kmE930/Uvx-g45c_bI/AAAAAAAAAZE/23y7iCTd2wk/s1600/20140212_115745.jpg)
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Three feet of 2nd cut around greens.
I have been curious about this a bit. It seems that the "fringe" area of greens at most public courses is 3 feet or so, then in the private sector you see a mixture. Some places with about 3 feet, some with 1 foot. It doesn't seem to be exclusive to high or low end privates, it is just different from one facility to the next. The only issue that I see, regardless the end of the spectrum, those with the 1 foot cuts tend to see more rough creep in than those with the 3 foot cuts, which would be backwards if it were a purposeful maintenance standard. Thoughts?
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1) Green surrounds that due to overwatering turn into soupy marshlands that a ball cannot escape from when trying to employ the ground game.
2) Growth of fairway rough so deep that much of the round is spent looking for balls a few feet off the fairway. Generally such practices are regarded with pride by the membership however.
3) Greens that are not rolled frequently enough and create the magical bouncing ball that will only find the hole if lucky. I don't care as much about the speed, but I hate to see the ball bouncing all over the place when putted.
4) This is more of a golfer maintenance issue, but not raking bunkers or properly fixing ball marks (or feet dragging on greens for that matter). This has become so much more prevalent an issue over my golfing life. It is so easy to leave a course in better shape than you find it nowadays, because you can fix multiple divots in the fairways, ball marks on the greens and unraked bunkers on pretty much every hole. Public and private.
5) While it is common on here to speak about greens speeds becoming to fast to handle the contour of the greens, I've found it at least equally as common to find green speeds too slow (or maintenance too poor) to bring out the nature of what the architect intended on the greens.
6) I too dislike the practice of surrounding bunkers with deep rough. I'll bet this is the minority view of golfers in the US in regards to this however. Most are pleased as punch their ball stopped short of the bunker. And if the lie is poor, well you can always just fluff it up.
7) I've come to dislike massively hairy bunkers, but around the lip or on a tongue extending into the bunker. I'm talking about dense grass a foot high where it takes a search party to find your ball. Bunkers are hard enough as is to have your ball be damn near unplayable in the lip of one. I do like the look of them however.
8) Lack of something resembling consistency in bunker sand. I don't need perfection, but I don't like it when there is almost no sand in one bunker and then the entire sand from the Gulf Coast has been imported and stuck in the next.
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Splitting the middle of the fairway by cutting in one direction to the left and the other direction to the right. Bad aesthetics and for the pro, I believe it might even alter certain shots.
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I'm not a big fan of the maintenance crew raking the faces of the bunkers toward the lips, thus winding up with too much sand there, compared with the centers of the bunkers. This leads too often to plugged lies, some quite deep.
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Fairway striping which follows the shape of the hole. I've yet to see a situation where this looks good.
Would you send the mowers out with instructions to mow but not follow the shape of the hole?
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Splitting the middle of the fairway by cutting in one direction to the left and the other direction to the right. Bad aesthetics and for the pro, I believe it might even alter certain shots.
This post shows whatever you do some will like and some wont. You can never please everyone, some will like red flags and some like yellow. Just please as many as you can.
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Fairway striping which follows the shape of the hole. I've yet to see a situation where this looks good.
Would you send the mowers out with instructions to mow but not follow the shape of the hole?
I meant that any other mowing pattern - Diamond Cut, 50/50, horizontal stripes, one direction all look far better than the above photo.
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Splitting the middle of the fairway by cutting in one direction to the left and the other direction to the right. Bad aesthetics and for the pro, I believe it might even alter certain shots.
This post shows whatever you do some will like and some wont. You can never please everyone, some will like red flags and some like yellow. Just please as many as you can.
Maybe, but I have personally never heard complaints about single direction cutting, or diamond shape. Depending on the grass, both look a lot more natural. If you are going to have any pattern at all, straight lines are preferable to me than curvy lines or the split middle.
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Splitting the middle of the fairway by cutting in one direction to the left and the other direction to the right. Bad aesthetics and for the pro, I believe it might even alter certain shots.
[/quote]This post shows whatever you do some will like and some wont. You can never please everyone, some will like red flags and some like yellow. Just please as many as you can.
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Maybe, but I have personally never heard complaints about single direction cutting, or diamond shape. Depending on the grass, both look a lot more natural. If you are going to have any pattern at all, straight lines are preferable to me than curvy lines or the split middle.
[/quote]I think its the GCA preference to have fairways cut in halves, so my point is if I cut in halves I please him and displease you and if I cut the fairways with diamond pattern I displease him and please you....so you can't please everyone
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Maybe, but I have personally never heard complaints about single direction cutting, or diamond shape. Depending on the grass, both look a lot more natural. If you are going to have any pattern at all, straight lines are preferable to me than curvy lines or the split middle.
I heard some stuff on here but describing diamond cutting as natural takes the biscuit. It has to be the most manufactured and manicured look you can create on a golf course. Most natural has to be your other suggestion though which is cutting in one direction though I would suggest most natural look is achieved by grazing.
Jon
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I despise fairways where the edges are mowed in a zig-zag pattern. As illustration, check out the photo on the homepage of this private club:
http://www.sugarvalleygc.com/
This technique results in artificial wide areas of fairway alternating with narrow portions. There are no design features such as mounding or elevation change that exist on the land to support the "fingers" that are created by the zig-zag mowing pattern. Rather, the land is primarily flat (albeit there are two fairway bunkers in two of the "fingers," but that does not explain the remaining zig-zags). This technique is all too common on many of the nondescript courses that I have played in the midwest. I guess some could argue that the members/superintendent/owner who directed this mowing pattern to be used is attempting to add character or difficulty to the course as an alternative to a straight, bowling alley fairway, but it looks and plays very artificial, unnecessary and too busy for my tastes.
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over watering certainly the biggest waste.
Green speeds that do not match the degree of contour simply beacuse of ego status.
Owners and superintendents that dont care about the architects planned lines of play and allow rough lines to intrude into the playing areas.
As a Brit peave number one Cart Paths. ;)
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1. Cart paths
2. Watering during the course of play on a slower weekend afternoon
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I kind of agree with the half-away-half-toward style of mowing fairways. I understand it's the "classic " look, but having players drive the ball into the grain on one side and against the grain on the other side of each fairway strikes me as a bit arbitrary. Not the worst thing in the world, but has always struck me as odd.
Fairway edges that have drifted 10 yards away from fairway bunkers slay me, though.
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Half and half or the traditional way is by far the most cost affective method of presentation. There is no lifting of the cutting units required, it is basically just bomb it down one side, turn, bomb it down the other. With gang mowers it is the only feasible way of mowing. Financial savings are significant.
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Maybe, but I have personally never heard complaints about single direction cutting, or diamond shape. Depending on the grass, both look a lot more natural. If you are going to have any pattern at all, straight lines are preferable to me than curvy lines or the split middle.
I heard some stuff on here but describing diamond cutting as natural takes the biscuit. It has to be the most manufactured and manicured look you can create on a golf course. Most natural has to be your other suggestion though which is cutting in one direction though I would suggest most natural look is achieved by grazing.
Jon
Jon, i agree most natural is one direction. I also agree perfectly symmetrical diamond cutting looks unnatural. I should have said multiple and varied direction. Depending on height, the diamond pattern tends to disappear with some grasses. In any event, I prefer as little a pattern as possible.
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Are gang mowers pulled by tractors used much these days?
I'm struggling to think of the last time I observed one in use.
atb
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Thomas,
I use a set on my semi rough and I know of several other courses in the area that do but not on the fairway.
Jon
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Exceptionally rare to use gang mowers on fairways these days and their non use is the biggest reason why fairways are much narrower these days in the UK.
I am hopefully going to use a set of 9 Kesmacs and a 50hp tractor for our latest baby and we are certainly designing it that way.
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Are gang mowers pulled by tractors used much these days?
I'm struggling to think of the last time I observed one in use.
atb
You see many in use in other countries such as Latin America, where a top brand fairway mower will set you back US$80,000 or more due to import taxes. Tractors are manufactured locally and/or can be imported without taxes, and the pull mowers are all manufactured and easily maintained in country and do not age much. Summer dry conditions, no irrigation on fairways and regular bermuda allow for this inexpensive maintenance.
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Tees mown/shaped circular rather than square.
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Exceptionally rare to use gang mowers on fairways these days and their non use is the biggest reason why fairways are much narrower these days in the UK.
I am hopefully going to use a set of 9 Kesmacs and a 50hp tractor for our latest baby and we are certainly designing it that way.
Well done :D
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Exceptionally rare to use gang mowers on fairways these days and their non use is the biggest reason why fairways are much narrower these days in the UK.
I am hopefully going to use a set of 9 Kesmacs and a 50hp tractor for our latest baby and we are certainly designing it that way.
Way to go Adrian.
As you might be aware, I introduced the Kesmacs to Cumberwell many years ago. It was the only way we could have the fairways that we do on the orange. The savings in terms of manpower, depreciation (gangs and tractors go for 20 years easy) and servicing was £15K to £20K a year at CP. One man could easily cut 9 holes of fairways in 2 hours which meant you could slot in the golf and cut at the same pace as play.
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I dislike seeing green pads that have long been abandoned in favor of boring oval greens and long rough in places that used to be corners and edges of original greens.
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I dislike seeing green pads that have long been abandoned in favor of boring oval greens and long rough in places that used to be corners and edges of original greens.
This is down to triplexes more often than many people think. It has always surprised me too Brian and is sad how many really fantastic pin positions have been lost due to this.
Jon
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French drains. My God, French drains. Also, too-narrow fairways.