Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Matt Frey, PGA on October 16, 2014, 10:34:11 AM
-
The Golf Range Association of America held on of its four regional boot camps at Fiddler's Elbow in New Jersey on Oct. 14-15. With the help of Stephen Kay, Fidder's recently renovated their range, and it's now a great area to work on your complete game.
Kay also spoke about range design during the boot camp, which was very interesting. He spoke about what makes an ideal range, netting and safety guidelines, different types of range balls (Cayman), irrigation, synthetic turf, the work they did at Fiddler's, the work they are doing at the Union League (formally Torresdale-Frankford) in Philadelphia, and much more.
Furthermore, Kay also took some time to speak about some of the attendee's ranges by looking at simple Google Earth aerials and providing feedback on what they may want to do to improve the facility.
Kay's full slideshow presentation can be found here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/GRAA/Range+Presentation-at+Fiddlers.pdf (https://s3.amazonaws.com/GRAA/Range+Presentation-at+Fiddlers.pdf)
The slideshow has a lot of great images of ranges (good and bad) as well as a ton of great images of the construction of the ranges at Fiddler's and the Union League. The PDF is a fairly large file, so I also included a few images below.
I also decided at the last minute to film the presentation on my iPad (please ignore the 47-percent fundraiser-style of the video...I didn't have a stand!). Unfortunately, the iPad ran out of storage and I wasn't able to record the last 15-20 minutes of the presentation. In any event, the firs 25 minutes can be viewed here: http://youtu.be/jS7y6Nm_21k (http://youtu.be/jS7y6Nm_21k)
Fiddler's Elbow's range before renovation:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/GRAA/fiddlers-range-before.jpg)
Fiddler's plan with hole alterations:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/GRAA/fiddlers-range-plan.jpg)
Fiddler's final plan:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/GRAA/fiddlers-range-fnl-plan.jpg)
Fiddler's Elbow's range after renovation:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/GRAA/fiddlers-range-after.jpg)
The Union League's range plan:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/GRAA/torresdalerange-plan.jpg)
-
At least there is one thing he can do competently. Sure has no clue on building or restoring golf courses.
-
Am I reading that plan right? You have to go the entire length of the range to get from #4 green to #5 tee now?
-
I've been over there and whilst it is most certainly an improvement over the past, it falls short on logic.
The shortest left practice field target green is in the wrong place. ::) ::)
Shots from the right side can endanger those to the left and give those on the right no short target green to work with.
There is more room over the right side to have placed it there.
Steve Kay is a nice guy for sure, but it hasn't yet made up for some questionable design.
-
Shots from the right side can endanger those to the left and give those on the right no short target green to work with.
While I cannot speak to the lack of a target green on the right side, I believe that the practice green is nearly 300 yards from the right tee, and the trees help bat down any rouge range balls. Kay said that he had the PGA director of golf, Joe Galan, hit lots of balls from different positions on the tee during construction to confirm the safety of the range's dimensions.
Tom: I haven't played at Fiddler's, but I believe you are correct about the walk from No. 4 to No. 5. Not ideal, but I think a healthy majority of the membership takes carts (right or wrong), so the redevelopment of the range was more of a priority.
-
The range Kay "improved" at Rockaway Hunting was architect malpractice.
30 foot mounds on both sides which led to a few changes on both #17,#18 including internal out of bounds and different contours in the fairways all for to let the members hit 4 irons rather than 7 irons.
A shame as those are two of the better holes on the course. Not sure if Gil was able to reverse even some of this.
-
Am I reading that plan right? You have to go the entire length of the range to get from #4 green to #5 tee now?
As Melvyn would say, "Thank heavens for golf carts!"
-
I've been over there and whilst it is most certainly an improvement over the past, it falls short on logic.
The shortest left practice field target green is in the wrong place. ::) ::)
Shots from the right side can endanger those to the left and give those on the right no short target green to work with.
There is more room over the right side to have placed it there.
Steve Kay is a nice guy for sure, but it hasn't yet made up for some questionable design.
Short target greens are always a tricky thing.
Putting it short left is far safer than short right, as most golfers are right handed.
placing a short target green on the RIGHT is a disaster as right handed golfers on the left aiming way right at the short right green endanger ALL players on the range with the inevitable shank so common amongst mid-high handicappers with a wedge in hand.
Right handed players are far less likely to hit the ball quick left, though lefties certainly can.
Having two short target greens would be best.
-
Bunkers at target greens are idiotic.
-
Bunkers at target greens are idiotic.
I respectfully disagree, John. I think adding bunkers to a range's target green can help players (especially those who have trouble visualizing while practicing) work on "real-life" situations. Bunkers can also allow golfers who practice in pairs to create their own fun "range games" where if the range was just an empty field with five flags, it may be a little more difficult.
Furthermore, bunkers (and built-up greens) can add definition to otherwise unimpressive land on a range, that may be enough to get people excited to go practice.
With that said, however, adding bunkers add to the cost of construction and, depending on the type built and materials used, to the maintenance of the range, so it's not always the best business practice to do so.
Lastly, if you look at a couple of ranges that many golfers of all skill levels consider to be among the best in the country: Pine Valley and Augusta National, you'll find bunkers near the target greens. I would imagine that facilities like that wouldn't build their ranges without some strategy.
-
If you have Pine Valley's or Augusta National's budget, you can do it, otherwise, we agree to disagree
-
If you have Pine Valley's or Augusta National's budget, you can do it, otherwise, we agree to disagree
If the bunkers are purely visual then you can have compacted sand or even carpet so not real cost.
Jon
-
White limestone chips work well, also. Just visited one of my ranges open for ten years, and they were quite pleased with both the visuals and ability to pick up balls.
-
My preferences:
1. I want to see the ball land. I see too many ranges that try too hard to make realistic targets at the cost of visibility. As long as the balls are decent, I want to know how far I am hitting them.
2. I want targets but they can be simple posts at regular intervals or more closely mown circles representing the size of the greens on the course. In some ways the old signs with numbers were more satisfying because every once in a while you can hit them.
3. I prefer that a range be angled with regard to the prevailing winds so you can always line up to hit shots into the wind. NW and SE in my area.
4. I really dislike restricted flight balls. At a decent club with limited distance for a range, I would prefer that the membership simply respect a yardage limitation with real golf balls. Caymans and mush balls are very unsatisfying to hit.
-
Jeff Brauer understands - too many of you speak about things as if you knew all the perimeters of a project. At Fiddlers there will be a lesson building on the right side and the Pro and the Owner wanted a target green there. The target greens where build with USGA green mix so I was limited to how many I could put in for budget reasons and again the fist one was going to be on the left side. As for where the range is - yes golfers have to drive from #4 to #5 - original #5 took the golfer from #4 to #6 basically thru the current new range. Fiddlers is the largest club in NJ with 54 holes the old range had spots for 10 to 12 golfers and the range itself was horrible. The Owners were going to add tennis, swimming pool, pro-shop (outside the Clubhouse) and a new cart bldg for 200 carts. Where the range is the only place it could be. All golfers take carts at Fiddlers - yes they can walk if they want but no caddies.
Rockaway Hunting Club had major safety problems with there range in relationship to #17 and #18 that is the main reason the Club called me in. In order to keep #17 and #18 (which yes are very good golf holes which actually have colonial bentgrass in the fairways) as is would have required nets and poles, the committee I worked with did not want that hence the tall berms to try to stop 80% of the balls that use to fly or roll into #17 and #18. The solution worked in reguards to safety. In order to keep #17 and #18 exactly the same would have been the net & poles or close the range.
By the way have any of you played the Links of North Dakota where we only moved 7,000 CY. ?
-
Stephen - thanks for reminding us of the unseen parameters that always exist. We think in terms of the ideal most of the time.
-
Stephen,
What was the reasoning behind building the target greens with USGA greens mix? To what depth was the mix utilized?
-
"too many of you speak about things as if you knew all the perimeters of a project"
Isn't that the essence of this chat board, people giving opinions on things they know little about? ;)
-
By the way have any of you played the Links of North Dakota where we only moved 7,000 CY. ?
Do you mean for the range or the entire course? I've played it a couple times. Haven't spent a lot of time on the range, though. Loved the golf course.
-
Changing the nature of any personal comments about any range designers to how they operate, I'd like to ask the treehouse how they prefer to practice and method to pay at a good quality range or practice facility. Assume the length and width of the driving range is sufficient to safely contain slices and hooks to the most prudent safety parameters, and that there may or may not be teeing grounds at both ends of a range offering at least a two direction wind variability. Assume the ground within the range is marginally maintained in the cheapest turf to maintain for your climate and maintained with little or no water, and has minimal target greens at 4 to 7 raised targets with intermediate movable targets that the staff can set out at odd yardages. Assume the balls are rasonably good shape and mid price performance characteristics. And, assume there is a separate very good short game green and bunker area apart from the range. What are fair prices you'd pay? Would you pay 10 dollars a bucket of 50... 75 balls? Would you pay separate for specified time at the short game green and bunkers, say 10 dollars per hour? What about time on a very high quality putting green? Would you pay up extra for time on the putting green and short game area or expect that to be included in your range visit?
I am thinking of the quality of Wild Horse for putting green and short game. I think it is worth a few bucks to pay for time on those as they are so good, and it could be a profit center in the right market if near big city, high dollar golf. It would go over like a fart in church in Gothenburg, however.... ::) ;D
BTW, what was the name of those franchised family golf centers run something like new high teck bowling alleys that Mike Young posted on recently. That whole concept intrigues me.
-
Dick,
http://topgolf.com/us/
I am told that they are doing well. I have zero interest in the concept.
If you are doing a feasibility study on a golf range, be careful. It was a common way to warehouse land in the Dallas area and I looked into it years ago (a good friend put well into five figures to back a common friend and never got a penny back). I think that Mike Nuzzo has some design experience in this area and might have some ideas on the numbers. I've seen industry reports and proformas for practice facilities, so they're out there.
We are seeing a large number of courses here that have "player development" programs providing complete access to the practice facilities and reduced fees for playing, sometimes for a cart-fee after 2 or 3 p.m. Monthly dues are in the $40 to $50 range.
As to paying extra for a short game area, around here we have any number of folks who use the public courses' putting and chipping greens as common areas, i.e. paying nothing. Some even scavenge balls from the practice greens to hit on the driving range. Freeloading is becoming endemic in all facets of life and perhaps the cost of policing and alienating potential customers is too much trouble for management.
-
"As to paying extra for a short game area, around here we have any number of folks who use the public courses' putting and chipping greens as common areas, i.e. paying nothing. Some even scavenge balls from the practice greens to hit on the driving range. Freeloading is becoming endemic in all facets of life and perhaps the cost of policing and alienating potential customers is too much trouble for management."
Totally agree with the above statement. I manage a public/muni course which has an all grass irons only range and chipping area. Went up there yesterday afternoon to hit a bucket before heading home. Watched a guy go up there with his own bag of balls brought from his car. he spent over an hour chipping and then hitting his own balls. I choose not to confront him and spoil his and my day.
We are considering upgrading our range with new tee area and a better short game practice area. But it is people like this that make me lose the initiative to procede.
-
D, are you saying he brought his own shag bag and hit balls onto your range before going to pick them up?
Is your course a privately-owned daily fee course or a true muni? As a taxpayer, I think I have every right to stop in at my local taxpayer-owned municipal course and spend time chipping or putting on a practice green. I wouldn't do the same at a privately-owned daily fee course though, and I'm certainly not audacious enough to hit my own balls onto a pay-for-use driving range and then go pick them up. I don't know why you would worry about offending someone cheap enough to do that - he's only going to play your course if it's the Hot Deal on GolfNow.com anyways.
-
England calling (and laughing at all of this)........
Is there something wrong with the concept that you use, for free, your own balls on a practice putting green and a practice chipping green and only pay £2.50 or so for 50 balls on the range?
But nice to see that the golf course (clue's in the title) has been compromised in order to allow for apparent improvements to the shooting gallery. ::)
-
IIRC, the ASGCA had a number of model or template practice range conceptual drawings in the 90s.
I suppose customs are different in various parts of the golf world, but here it is totally customary and normal at public courses, even daily fee courses to pay for buckets at the range and use your own shag bag at short game green/bunkers and putting green.
-
Good Lord, who let Kay into this nuthouse?
-
Don't get me wrong here. I have no current problem with someone using their own balls on the putting green or at the chipping area. The problem is when they bring their own balls to hit out on the range. This practice is very common and when confronted the person will say that they are doing you a favor by supplying you with additional practice balls. I always like to ask them if they bring their own appetizers when they go out to eat.
I also have a very hard time justifying spending money on upgrading practice facilities when there is a perception that people think they should be able to use it for free. This particularily applies when cosidering a new short game area at a public facility.
Can anyone give any examples of a public short game area that is profitable?
-
IIRC, the ASGCA had a number of model or template practice range conceptual drawings in the 90s.
I suppose customs are different in various parts of the golf world, but here it is totally customary and normal at public courses, even daily fee courses to pay for buckets at the range and use your own shag bag at short game green/bunkers and putting green.
I did this at Ravisloe a few years ago and was told to leave by an overzealous marshall, who told me I was only allowed to use their decidedly average at best range balls on the chipping facility. It was very frustrating. I showed up and hit two buckets of balls that I paid for, then grabbed my shag bag to use their chipping area (which is, or at least was, pretty nice). This was on a day where I was the only customer in sight. I wrote a letter to their head pro (no response) and refused to go back for a few years until reluctantly agreeing to join some GCAers. The really stupid thing about the situation was that if I'd bought a bucket of balls, I could have used the chipping area for hours, then picked them up and hit them at the range, and they would have been perfectly fine with that.
Generally, I think if you expect people to pay to use the putting green and short game areas for practice, you should tell them. Whether the price of admission is a round of golf, a bucket of balls, or just some user fee, let the customer know. Personally I feel obligated to spend some money if I'm using someone's facilities, so I'd probably at least hit a bucket of balls as well, but plenty of people probably don't feel the same way, and that's perfectly fine. The course should just be up front about it.
-
Someone asked why we used green mix for the target greens. The superintendent Matt Willigan (who was the assistant when I renovated Llanerch) want green mix because he is maintaining the target greens at I think .250 (that is the height of greens when I was a super in the mid 1970's).
-
Don't get me wrong here. I have no current problem with someone using their own balls on the putting green or at the chipping area. The problem is when they bring their own balls to hit out on the range. This practice is very common and when confronted the person will say that they are doing you a favor by supplying you with additional practice balls. I always like to ask them if they bring their own appetizers when they go out to eat.
I also have a very hard time justifying spending money on upgrading practice facilities when there is a perception that people think they should be able to use it for free. This particularily applies when cosidering a new short game area at a public facility.
Can anyone give any examples of a public short game area that is profitable?
D Malley,
When I was at St. Andrew's this past summer, they charged an hourly rate for the short game area.
They were happy to supply balls and/or a shag bag, and you were welcome to use either.
I actually took the shag bag and 25 balls, and also used 15 of my own balls.
I thought it was an outstanding arrangement, and amazingly inexpensive (even moreso because they only charged me for the first hour and I was there 2-3 hours each day)
Would've happily paid more and i fact tried to pay for my additional time but they wouldn't accept it.
I find much better value in a good short game area than a range, and would pay for it.
-
Someone asked why we used green mix for the target greens. The superintendent Matt Willigan (who was the assistant when I renovated Llanerch) want green mix because he is maintaining the target greens at I think .250 (that is the height of greens when I was a super in the mid 1970's).
Is this the same Stephen Kay who renovated Sewane? Enjoyed the course very much. Anyone know what's happened to Jason Blasberg (my host at Sewane and former GCAer?
Bill Seitz,
You told the scolding marshal that you already paid for range balls? What I've seen any number of times at various daily fee courses are people who buy nothing at the course, hit their own balls on the chipping and putting greens, and sometimes scavenge range balls from the practice areas to hit on the range. It was not unusual to have a couple guys hanging around the driving range and pounce on any balls left by a departing golfer. The few courses I've seen that had a short game area and charged by the hour, I doubt that they recouped the cost of surveillance.
-
I would pay alot of money to spend the day on the short game area at Dallas National.
$100 for the day just leave ma alone and I would be like a pig in slop.
There Lou....I have said something very positive about tom Fazio design ;D
Actually played DN alot this past year it grows on me, love the new work on #18
-
I would pay alot of money to spend the day on the short game area at Dallas National.
$100 for the day just leave ma alone and I would be like a pig in slop.
There Lou....I have said something very positive about tom Fazio design ;D
Actually played DN alot this past year it grows on me, love the new work on #18
Can't imagine a DN-like practice facility as part of a daily fee but it should would be nice. Tierra Verde in Arlington (city owned) has a good range, so-so putting green, but really good three hole practice facility (one par 3, 4, 5). The latter has an extra fee, but for some high school teams and a few annual pass members, it seems to be mostly unused.
I haven't played DN this year but a member friend called a few weeks back with a report on everything going on there. Currently, they are discussing bunker work, apparently having tested the Ohio and Arkansas Prime sands and opting for the latter. The more I play the course the greater appreciation I have for it.
As to your estimation of Fazio's work, neither he or I lose much sleep over it. Golf is a big world and I've been around long enough to know that much more goes into our evaluations than what ultimately is created on the ground. The main thing is to enjoy the game and you and I both seem to do so very much. I do wish I could have but some of your length. Getting shorter by the day.
-
I would pay alot of money to spend the day on the short game area at Dallas National.
$100 for the day just leave ma alone and I would be like a pig in slop.
There Lou....I have said something very positive about tom Fazio design ;D
Actually played DN alot this past year it grows on me, love the new work on #18
Can't imagine a DN-like practice facility as part of a daily fee but it should would be nice. Tierra Verde in Arlington (city owned) has a good range, so-so putting green, but really good three hole practice facility (one par 3, 4, 5). The latter has an extra fee, but for some high school teams and a few annual pass members, it seems to be mostly unused.
I haven't played DN this year but a member friend called a few weeks back with a report on everything going on there. Currently, they are discussing bunker work, apparently having tested the Ohio and Arkansas Prime sands and opting for the latter. The more I play the course the greater appreciation I have for it.
As to your estimation of Fazio's work, neither he or I lose much sleep over it. Golf is a big world and I've been around long enough to know that much more goes into our evaluations than what ultimately is created on the ground. The main thing is to enjoy the game and you and I both seem to do so very much. I do wish I could have but some of your length. Getting shorter by the day.
Lou, you are only feeling shorter because you played with Long Keith Kirkendall recently!
-
No Bill. I am painfully reminded each day I play as my approaches are getting longer and longer. For all the talk of firm and fast, I am just not seeing much of that, or maybe my shots just don't have any pop. I admire the old guys who still bust it. Maybe I need to spend some of my range time in the gym. Did Stephen Kay design any of those?