Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim Hoak on October 05, 2014, 09:20:00 PM
-
A friend of mine is trying to rally support for a restoration of the Naval Academy golf course in Annapolis. It is a Flynn design, has great bones, he says, but is in poor shape and in need of a restoration.
Has anyone played it? What are your impressions of it? Is it in need of a restoration? Is it worthy of money being spent on it?
-
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=fd18e096afbabdc363a16cc4742aeb90&topic=45770.0
and
see#40 here:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=fd18e096afbabdc363a16cc4742aeb90&topic=45770.0
-
Jim, I have played the Academy course two or three times a year for over thirty years. In all that time very little has changed. Some bunker work and tree removal but not much else. Conditioning is sometimes good and sometimes pretty lousy. There is a joke that it depends on whether or not the Academy Superintendant plays golf. It is routed on some very good rolling hills and has a few standout holes. The greens don't have much movement but many have a great deal of slope. I think the greens may have shrunk over the years. I do not know for certain, but I would think that over the years bunkers have disappeared, although I can't recall any that have disappeared in my time there.
It could be an excellent course if someone did renovation/redesign work there. For instance, the fourth hole is a 190 yard par three. The green is pretty round, flat, and boring with a bunker not many frequent. I'd be interested to see what it was like when the hole was designed. On the other hand eight is a wonderful par four with a green diagonal to the fairway perched on a hillside and a deep bunker devilishly placed in the front of the green. It is a great hole.
If could be a great test.
-
I played the Naval Academy course several years ago and agree with the sentiment here--it definitely has great bones, lots of character and charm, and would be much improved by some renovation. I know there have been threads on the great military courses before and this one is certainly near the top, but the courses often get lost in the shuffle of the other amenities on base
-
As an AF Academy grad (we just beat Navy football to, likely, take back the commander and chiefs trophy) I have to say I'm not a huge fan of the course. My parents live real close by, as my dad is on the faculty at the Academy. When I go back to visit I'll play the course occasionally if my dad wants to play. I'm never too excited to play there. As Tommy said a number of the greens are round flat with uninteresting bunkers. Most military courses seem to end up this way even if they have decent terrain (as the Naval Academy does). The courses are meant to provide recreation at an affordable rate and often are a place where beginners learn to play. I'm not saying the course is bad. If I were stationed there it would be where I played.
-
Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting, which is unfortunate too because most of them are on great land and were designed by well regarded architects.
How is the AF Academy course these days?
-
Don't count on any restoration to Flynn's old plans. It seems that there is plan in place to lengthen the course here and there and to significantly modify certain holes--the Athletic Director believes that this will be to the advantage of the USNA golf team. We'll see how that goes. Fantastic course as it is, though.
-
Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,
Interesting comment- why?
My grandfather is buried in the campus cemetery, have always wondered about the course but have never played.
-
Inside the PGA tour is at the Naval Academy right now on Golf Channel
-
...
How is the AF Academy course these days?
Chris unfortunately I haven't seen them since 2006.
Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,
Interesting comment- why?
...
Bryan I should say this is my opinion based on playing roughly 30 military courses, 9 of which I consider home courses.
Let's use my last home course, the courses at Eglin Air Force base, as an example. The Eagle course was originally constructed by Langford and Moreau and opened in the 1920's. The club was opened as a course for Chicago businessmen who wintered in the area. Eventually the US Air Force took control of the course. If you look at early aerials of the course almost every hole had fairway bunkers. Currently only the 18th hole has a fairway bunker. Also the green shapes have changed significantly. So why is that?
My thoughts are the courses operate on a constrained budget. This post is already straying a bit from the thread topic and I really don't want it to go further off topic regarding the merits of the US federal government and it's financing but basically most of the golf courses operated by the department of defense utilize something called Nonappropriated Funds. Generally these funds are not funds appropriated by congress in the annual budget. Instead they are funds raised by the sales of goods or services primarily focused on providing morale, welfare and recreation to eligible individuals (usually military members, their families and authorized civilians). Some examples of these services include the golf course, bowling alleys, movie theaters, lodging, gyms, libraries, child/youth services (day care) and some school services (think extra curricular activities associated with schools on military bases). Sure you are thinking all golf courses must operate based on what they can make, but the money from the golf course, which is usually a money maker, is put into a common fund and will offset some of the programs that will loose money (library, school services, gym...). So when the budget is tight the operators of the golf courses need to save money somewhere and I assume they are going to take out bunkers and reduce green sizes.
I recently arrived at a new assignment and found the greens on the golf course were in pretty rough shape, to put it nicely. Two weeks ago they shut down three greens for a week and laid new sod. We are playing on them now. They roll like shit and each green lost about two feet on the edges. I can only assume the reduction in size was to save money on the sod needed to replace the greens. I also assume smaller greens will save money on future maintenance costs.
To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course. The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses. The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA). NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations. Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations). From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.
p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance. I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.
-
I'm in a similar situation as well having grown up on military courses around the world. Many of them are on great pieces of land and designed by well known architects, but they just don't get the attention and care needed to sustain some of the great features
-
...
How is the AF Academy course these days?
Chris unfortunately I haven't seen them since 2006.
Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,
Interesting comment- why?
...
Bryan I should say this is my opinion based on playing roughly 30 military courses, 9 of which I consider home courses.
Let's use my last home course, the courses at Eglin Air Force base, as an example. The Eagle course was originally constructed by Langford and Moreau and opened in the 1920's. The club was opened as a course for Chicago businessmen who wintered in the area. Eventually the US Air Force took control of the course. If you look at early aerials of the course almost every hole had fairway bunkers. Currently only the 18th hole has a fairway bunker. Also the green shapes have changed significantly. So why is that?
My thoughts are the courses operate on a constrained budget. This post is already straying a bit from the thread topic and I really don't want it to go further off topic regarding the merits of the US federal government and it's financing but basically most of the golf courses operated by the department of defense utilize something called Nonappropriated Funds. Generally these funds are not funds appropriated by congress in the annual budget. Instead they are funds raised by the sales of goods or services primarily focused on providing morale, welfare and recreation to eligible individuals (usually military members, their families and authorized civilians). Some examples of these services include the golf course, bowling alleys, movie theaters, lodging, gyms, libraries, child/youth services (day care) and some school services (think extra curricular activities associated with schools on military bases). Sure you are thinking all golf courses must operate based on what they can make, but the money from the golf course, which is usually a money maker, is put into a common fund and will offset some of the programs that will loose money (library, school services, gym...). So when the budget is tight the operators of the golf courses need to save money somewhere and I assume they are going to take out bunkers and reduce green sizes.
I recently arrived at a new assignment and found the greens on the golf course were in pretty rough shape, to put it nicely. Two weeks ago they shut down three greens for a week and laid new sod. We are playing on them now. They roll like shit and each green lost about two feet on the edges. I can only assume the reduction in size was to save money on the sod needed to replace the greens. I also assume smaller greens will save money on future maintenance costs.
To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course. The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses. The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA). NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations. Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations). From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.
p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance. I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.
Thanks, makes a lot of commonsense sense to me
-
Here is a link to a 2013 Master Plan for the USNA Golf Course Mike Sweeney posted on twitter.
http://www.mcdonaldgolfinc.com/design/usna/usna2013book.pdf
-
Here is a link to a 2013 Master Plan for the USNA Golf Course Mike Sweeney posted on twitter.
http://www.mcdonaldgolfinc.com/design/usna/usna2013book.pdf (http://www.mcdonaldgolfinc.com/design/usna/usna2013book.pdf)
Well the master plan is no longer there but I did finally get to play the course yesterday. In the golf course access issues of life, it is the only course where a Congressional Nomination was needed!
When you drive into the course, there are a few holes that run parallel to the road, so I was thinking it was a flat course. The opening hole sets the tone for the very nice piece of land that will come:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ll7p1YIiQ_rLkfSJ-J0MXvsJaen4K3R9XLERTMzGHtj4SeJuMgwy3PJeQ5Hxd4Iwzbz2bsNyOj45KUWsEgbbaY49VyBULVTi0UeJddenXNHWmOy4X0DcTrVvhrEKQihX7GqmF9AO0-M8j_gyBqydNYffBUsY_aRzIySTG53Zh3abb4LGFOyg4g_INpYVvgIfAr-V9Lz-Dn96NAh-deQufWQ_Fns5DZmlGg5WP3Gcuhq11Qhfha-dRB1_FNSheZG99Wgv1w3zLd3WVJaRhEIiWgmZKcojmpRntifsjXkqOW9ppj9aErH_UpQqWktZk5aJnsl39PI_s8S4ONYzQd5vbqylI8O4JJ4zze57KQrX-yY6_8muckZ4tOFZ3tOI4VjY6VoDxIX2AFLNJO2pTTrnbnkEKBwWztBNLDruyd_YpSAqmDLNLn_tlYk56bRZXHCba_QKFvMAhBNFleEaoX73LB9ZoJ78bko1G5xGB5-UgLhYnuhBFH493Hn5uxGNUe7MAtUqheQzdRuy8cSuZDr_vsCRFXKoShx0V8_fx24zh9T1_W-m_4Fe-Eck5HkCN-HqNTpdvtGugmIScIYkTW9QvznXmRFCnFNCOXG5zgaOyiG7pRtwvQgkHNJTmbIu9NSxqTEXul42zjM1fu4bksUD4cdGZwtfYFpySEyk_BpDKg=w1059-h794-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/DbVTUri84fNT0PvMmsf_UiH83SXkKcuLfba4exMMaSEekmhkMj90wfMVH4PKwwsGIww8isjJb6ziSJ1h3i4yePb7WrBZywhtvwFhzt29A_uXmRSX0DiftcdOGnlCioLV5mMXpshyoLLJqVZigbArTXhpoeLpnWP-DgpWjCVTUnQjkYDrUAKRsCitT8hGiiQm5Tn2NnxlehVEvndKReESsmNZit_vITAv9-uMc4O9gyLBM44OfYjZ-8P5Vz-XFncWWIRY2tOL2CPVLeqF3GSGNuKIzu4ZmhAKSVsLdOzL_HsGi4dMDyNwDlT3ok3ZRVGAt6d-fbLHRGg9NVad6fdQYoNZisGPju42rEWUhWYW4RQ9vQRldVEzKo6JRg2FWqfiGhhX99asr4psR6dCt4CEMcqF7o4MCcfdnV61LO7CgAgbqzpaQrirc1JoNQvnobwkPAcj2A3Bai9jOvyQtrwD6F4AgWuDnxCqagIsjcSvNmtMt86uqetv8_SYIV4Lz5vreJ3U5k9HzirGVjzR0Wg-J13so0Fdw7o3WZkBThPop2UD8I--GqfpK5fx9vvjatYIwyfKbKq_CoAsARgbjYRhmOvhJV6k_Zb2luCe8Ga93qPemnl0ld2YVKMEM4pTVFy1BZ7EclVtMHLwKb_S8ILMLAFPylGsUIKiuojRW9ZQww=w1059-h794-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fap1GjYi86W8xq7i94JzNIYl3hKAWy7dhbePQFZ5b1UtyMfUf5Td0LOmR-1h9DvtTPmlaUDIVggZUlpiO_ZaMRpf_8ORgIiJL2_CF5ZauFq1mOlzVXfHI4LHrjK0_n5JlD5l8dXmQ62skJgr4WsoScJTg4nEf1afCP_Gq8n2j5yQGt5jPn1KUm1j0PbNX3ZCK0ki0KGXFHsKcjFhuKWG92hxztgrNu_kjOd4b3Id-EHzzxpukMKDeeucwuksoflO-NWMFWGuddaQ49klRiZ0jhJiPNXXyQ4lv8kVzNqFoum4i_K7-QpukVBHCexPLxFuMkrfABL_ABETuwbKqldbxv2Ie--dXz4FHgSGACtrD_k-EkuSiXhG803kfmJq5EMND5_T9IRoBUg5W2dKMJZUaLlH16jmu7Uk8wJ7qA4lUmLsn31Y9g_sQGQSwkET5CT6HsVSTiAlpcUmVwpJdBJCNCVKa8qIXUAWb9I24JKfoIs5Q8QCqE_icV01y5a-RsBIeVQZRliZW4nctbGrhNX-HmeMLQE9RWfm5H7qmjUvtucSvm9q47_GCtSPV5XO7ZmKEmacafaZ-TEWEgf6KoLhKq0XI-0r3uj4xWJZYdN5hOgB_Q2WW-LD7uMB8zstkNTtvHmICzrOSV4Ca1kWbuvog4cYX8lN8nbEyffrSkKgEg=w1059-h794-no)
I thought it was a terrific course. 9 & 18 are flat long 4's that simply bring you home but there are some really terrific holes, greens, and land out there. There are only three Par 3's and the first two are just okay, but the downhole 17th hole is a fabulous Postage Stamp style hole:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aYflyi24TD0vzNAmy7KO9h_jBiu83yUN0hR7pNiVMZeQSpcZQDLxsMT6bEIXGBMNCOvc2qLGUQ8GkwK9bznLbPZ184j-3XXKGfeo1YnsQunxVz_92E_B70pZXiFn6kaTuM725sYTuTy_wMBxWLf-sLpm7cJFF_tLKIDsoXyDmo0zQc9EPhlO9whH8UCkR5OK7uwxXtc9ll68JVH6Wjhf7tnsNugSnmmlrQxytQO8PkjYbp5z8ua5siQeZva2wQnak1zuHWk1F1dSq5O8wNDogG-Sr8IJWiiCrH6xWggTDr0WRZNPFUOr9L1piS18VlbpcXaPt5pq0vcn5TxCm60wL8q97eBwqs_6r_gtoEBQid2xXUdSQyImPcxwUqjtaV0PD-vbsEpfIc_ofb2CKtTkED5pVJy4jVe1E1Dt6ZvYAFxL_O_-bF_idNu2DU_De7Jc3Mlg677p4gAJgbiiO50lsr6MdYNzNsunOJkplJEI9NXnQoTzSp9RYeG1KVhceBeuHMNLU9lkNIPJQUfh1eEYJB2dBASmMpHtRMItBvWCrcAQqPgmoRP7gxnk7PfWIevNP8bUDrwaBxa5oHRQsFQfZI21dYPE8LkL4wj6mR0D4yGjwiisvdYEdwoSF4-PxjVnQ8w9OWXt_OFqHOfmK2b3DEt1nXV1Nr12LwtJDu_Utw=w1059-h794-no)
The course sits in the middle of a bunch of support services for the main campus on the other side of the Severn River, so it is very busy on the perimeters unlike say Yale which is surrounded by woods.
With a restoration and a tweak or two to conditioning, it would sit in that base of William Flynn Philly courses in the Doak 6-7 range. With the end of my son's second year at USNA in sight, his time is a little more flexible. In the coming seasons, I hope to return.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zk6y0LYP2UzIMg-LYPoijdNeTMejL-NB2oAnUzMrfDfOYhQZEvbQzfDl8FCRt0IOAyX3GfPhqlQ1YRLp6yYKCiSU327k9yUAtz_EtGZLHUeHyvarNvHDguMgZHXiGlb7ymXkfRyXo_esooMar5kat71aECtH2MlZgdgN5-4sEOMATbJtZxGrTMQNX7WhMb3GAP_irl93aw3Q-P-rKlsgx49duX8VfEmi0ASXiAdkBG6Z1VOHFW41YiuWHRX0XJjxQp9BSbJ1gSnzcKV74rIChziNynqIbWVMx9DC4gB8fo5hGrH-CyeEM2KdrjEWSf_BpgAKbcOnTBjEk6Vg-szHciQX28LAh6N6xGFcodK3a6hUDs3VRg11K4MOiHMBDSBb1cEkHSC62GXLX1AiejI6rf3uh_Osmh9VrLwr3YovUm-E19VB-9et8wagkWEPIhp6lyl0jTfM50knCFzb7jKM76MV4OUBMVsYO17COpKtDVYUPxZY5couzBYScLBaLAbGCRye1lyuXKfbekI7gYJmNv-34BJN1cSKxN562hZYquQYIzmqKjssqMhU_yK6p-JnjSmzqnX-zJir5Q_91HWquJzaJjYtnoxmUY0Y6o57ivSgeUud4ZInQ61Bw11Wr8Ku98GA52hSUOg4p0D1KOrtif_toVkzjalymwuGDYmm6A=w1059-h794-no)
#GoNavy
-
Here's a link to 2013 Master Plan:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf
I don't know if any of this was implemented.
-
In the aerial view of the course you will notice a little peninsula that juts out into the Chesapeake Bay. about twenty years ago the existing pro, Larry Ringer, pushed for a nine hole addition to the course. Some preliminary plans were drawn but nothing came of the plan. It could have been a nice addition to the existing course. I have no idea who drew up the plans. It might have been Ringer himself.
-
Hey, Mike.
Tried to PM you, but ...
Ask your son if he knows Greg Sibick at USNA. Greg golfed for me (and was my student) at school in Buffalo.
-
To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course. The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses. The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA). NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations. Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations). From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.
p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance. I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.
So I was at a reception tonight for USNA and federal employees are not allowed to fundraise. This reception had nothing to do with the golf course, and it had nothing to do with politics. Thus, the NAAA was probably established as a fundraising vehicle.
Because the land sits on the property of the USA/Defense Department, I am guessing that this is a complicated conversation when there are many other priorities in Annapolis:
https://www.usna.edu/NewsCenter/2016/04/contract-awarded-for-construction-of-cyber-building.php
-
With a restoration and a tweak or two to conditioning, it would sit in that base of William Flynn Philly courses in the Doak 6-7 range. With the end of my son's second year at USNA in sight, his time is a little more flexible. In the coming seasons, I hope to return.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zk6y0LYP2UzIMg-LYPoijdNeTMejL-NB2oAnUzMrfDfOYhQZEvbQzfDl8FCRt0IOAyX3GfPhqlQ1YRLp6yYKCiSU327k9yUAtz_EtGZLHUeHyvarNvHDguMgZHXiGlb7ymXkfRyXo_esooMar5kat71aECtH2MlZgdgN5-4sEOMATbJtZxGrTMQNX7WhMb3GAP_irl93aw3Q-P-rKlsgx49duX8VfEmi0ASXiAdkBG6Z1VOHFW41YiuWHRX0XJjxQp9BSbJ1gSnzcKV74rIChziNynqIbWVMx9DC4gB8fo5hGrH-CyeEM2KdrjEWSf_BpgAKbcOnTBjEk6Vg-szHciQX28LAh6N6xGFcodK3a6hUDs3VRg11K4MOiHMBDSBb1cEkHSC62GXLX1AiejI6rf3uh_Osmh9VrLwr3YovUm-E19VB-9et8wagkWEPIhp6lyl0jTfM50knCFzb7jKM76MV4OUBMVsYO17COpKtDVYUPxZY5couzBYScLBaLAbGCRye1lyuXKfbekI7gYJmNv-34BJN1cSKxN562hZYquQYIzmqKjssqMhU_yK6p-JnjSmzqnX-zJir5Q_91HWquJzaJjYtnoxmUY0Y6o57ivSgeUud4ZInQ61Bw11Wr8Ku98GA52hSUOg4p0D1KOrtif_toVkzjalymwuGDYmm6A=w1059-h794-no)
#GoNavy
In honor of our friend Bob, I observe that the untucked shirt is a long-standing Sweeney tradition. ;)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/mountain%20lake/dylan9tee.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/jmayhugh/media/mountain%20lake/dylan9tee.jpg.html)
-
Thanks for the flashback Mr. Mayhugh !
I have always loved your observations of accoutrements attached to golf course architecture. At least until I became one of the unorthodox accoutrements in your observations!!
-
Spoke to some USNA members today on the first tee, and they will be using Andrew Green for the renovation over the next two years:
http://greengolfandturf.com (http://greengolfandturf.com)
It sounds like Andrew broke away from McDonald since this plan was formed, but he is the author:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf)
From the website:
https://usnagolf.com/the-course/#top (https://usnagolf.com/the-course/#top)
"Beginning in 2018, and over the next several years, NAGA will commit to the renovation of Greenbury Point. We will begin the restoration of William Flynn's vision with a bunker refurbishment as Phase III and IV of our capital project. In Phase V, we will create a complete set of greens, restoring missing green space and providing sustainable surfaces for the future. We will protect the investment in new turf with an updated irrigation system in Phase VI, and enhance playability with new fairway turf in Phase VII. This lengthy and comprehensive undertaking represents the next chapter in the legacy of Navy Golf."
_____________________________________________
Andrew Green on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GreenGCA/status/979300853927632896 (https://twitter.com/GreenGCA/status/979300853927632896)
__________________________________________________
Also of note, the project support extends back to Friend of Bob Huntley and Friend of many posters here - Admiral Hank Mauz:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PfppCZNSVfE/WsIWCdFkG1I/AAAAAAAAUCc/NvAlagHqyvEZvjIl8JkcXgmPmThga9UGwCL0BGAs/w530-d-h398-n/IMG_2276.JPG)
The Admiral's support of golf now extends from Cypress Point to Annapolis....
-
Spoke to some USNA members today on the first tee, and they will be using Andrew Green for the renovation over the next two years:
http://greengolfandturf.com (http://greengolfandturf.com)
It sounds like Andrew broke away from McDonald since this plan was formed, but he is the author:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf)
From the website:
https://usnagolf.com/the-course/#top (https://usnagolf.com/the-course/#top)
"Beginning in 2018, and over the next several years, NAGA will commit to the renovation of Greenbury Point. We will begin the restoration of William Flynn's vision with a bunker refurbishment as Phase III and IV of our capital project. In Phase V, we will create a complete set of greens, restoring missing green space and providing sustainable surfaces for the future. We will protect the investment in new turf with an updated irrigation system in Phase VI, and enhance playability with new fairway turf in Phase VII. This lengthy and comprehensive undertaking represents the next chapter in the legacy of Navy Golf."
_____________________________________________
Andrew Green on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GreenGCA/status/979300853927632896 (https://twitter.com/GreenGCA/status/979300853927632896)
__________________________________________________
Also of note, the project support extends back to Friend of Bob Huntley and Friend of many posters here - Admiral Hank Mauz:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PfppCZNSVfE/WsIWCdFkG1I/AAAAAAAAUCc/NvAlagHqyvEZvjIl8JkcXgmPmThga9UGwCL0BGAs/w530-d-h398-n/IMG_2276.JPG)
The Admiral's support of golf now extends from Cypress Point to Annapolis....
Great news and thanks for the update. I haven't played, but looks like a wonderful layout our midshipmen deserve.
Thank you to your son for his service!
-
...
How is the AF Academy course these days?
Chris unfortunately I haven't seen them since 2006.
Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,
Interesting comment- why?
...
Bryan I should say this is my opinion based on playing roughly 30 military courses, 9 of which I consider home courses.
Let's use my last home course, the courses at Eglin Air Force base, as an example. The Eagle course was originally constructed by Langford and Moreau and opened in the 1920's. The club was opened as a course for Chicago businessmen who wintered in the area. Eventually the US Air Force took control of the course. If you look at early aerials of the course almost every hole had fairway bunkers. Currently only the 18th hole has a fairway bunker. Also the green shapes have changed significantly. So why is that?
My thoughts are the courses operate on a constrained budget. This post is already straying a bit from the thread topic and I really don't want it to go further off topic regarding the merits of the US federal government and it's financing but basically most of the golf courses operated by the department of defense utilize something called Nonappropriated Funds. Generally these funds are not funds appropriated by congress in the annual budget. Instead they are funds raised by the sales of goods or services primarily focused on providing morale, welfare and recreation to eligible individuals (usually military members, their families and authorized civilians). Some examples of these services include the golf course, bowling alleys, movie theaters, lodging, gyms, libraries, child/youth services (day care) and some school services (think extra curricular activities associated with schools on military bases). Sure you are thinking all golf courses must operate based on what they can make, but the money from the golf course, which is usually a money maker, is put into a common fund and will offset some of the programs that will loose money (library, school services, gym...). So when the budget is tight the operators of the golf courses need to save money somewhere and I assume they are going to take out bunkers and reduce green sizes.
I recently arrived at a new assignment and found the greens on the golf course were in pretty rough shape, to put it nicely. Two weeks ago they shut down three greens for a week and laid new sod. We are playing on them now. They roll like shit and each green lost about two feet on the edges. I can only assume the reduction in size was to save money on the sod needed to replace the greens. I also assume smaller greens will save money on future maintenance costs.
To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course. The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses. The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA). NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations. Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations). From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.
p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance. I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.
Joe-
Thank you for your service! Our freedom is certainly no free...I truly appreciate people like you defending it!
Best,
Scott
-
The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA). NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations. Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations). From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.
p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance. I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.
You got the basic formula of the NAAA. Basically USNA moved the entire Athletic Department into its own separate 501c-3 and it uses NO tax payer dollars. This gives them lots of freedom and I am surprised that other NCAA schools have not followed this model. The Army - Navy Game is a huge piece of the financial puzzle as it funds a big piece of the NAAA.
I think West Point is trying to get to the same place in terms of financial structure, but they would need to BLOW UP West Point Golf Course and the mountains its sits in to have a serious chance of rivaling the USNA GC. ;)
#GoNavyBeatArmy 8)
-
I hope it happens, but I have my doubts. I have heard about such plans many times.
-
I hope it happens, but I have my doubts. I have heard about such plans many times.
I was told by the Members that it had already started at the practice area near the first tee:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IKc_0TYZQBA/WsNCMIK48_I/AAAAAAAAUDQ/4l0uzo8zvPUMc3K78ht-98D86Bmf1WqyQCL0BGAs/w530-d-h398-n/IMG_2280.JPG)
And Andrew Green speaks:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B1RgTVsFo8i/
-
Anyone have an update on this?
I understand that the restoration is underway/done?
-
Anyone have an update on this?
I understand that the restoration is underway/done?
There was nothing specific about the course in this article, but they tweaked a bunch of things in the '18-19 NAAA operating budget and the golf course is managed/owned/other by the NAAA:
https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy_sports/ac-cs-navy-athletics-budget-20180706-story.html (https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy_sports/ac-cs-navy-athletics-budget-20180706-story.html)
I was over on that side of the river for a Rugby match in the Fall of '18. I did not play the course, but the Rugby field is right there and I did not see or hear of any additional work other than what I previously posted.
Two more trips are in the books for April and May, so I will update if I see anything.
-
Answer my own question from sources outside GCA--
Most of the money raised--still need a bit more--all private donations, no government money.
Course will shut down this summer--done in one year.
New irrigation and new back tees already in.
Good Flynn and important course.
-
Can't wait! Good news on this.
Great to see a W Flynn course get loving and hopefully competent attention.
-
Any idea when? I'm headed there in May for a graduation, and would love to play it before and after.
Hang up and listen.
-
My understanding is that the plan is to shut 9 holes in August, and the rest in October, of this year. Hopefully, reopen May-June of 2020.
-
Playing right into my hands!
-
We had a post-Commisioning BBQ yesterday and we were hosted by accident/coincidence, by a USNA GC member, USNA graduate, and he is very active with Navy Athletics. Andrew Green is confirmed to continue as the renovation architect, and the main work will re-start in August 2019. Andrew Green seems to mainly use Twitter to update his work - https://twitter.com/GreenGCA (https://twitter.com/GreenGCA)
It sounded great as the talk is they will "go back to the original William Flynn" holes. USNA GC could leap ahead of a few other Flynns that I have played as I really love the existing back 9, and the front should get better. I look forward to seeing the updated course down the road.
-
I had the good fortune to play the USNAGC last weekend with my Cobb's friend Mike Cirba and two GCA lurkers Mark and Pete. It started out as a lovely day on a Saturday with a chance of afternoon thunderstorms.
The terrain at the Naval Academy Golf Club is pretty darn good. Right out of the box is a firm handshake first hole with a 2nd shot to an elevated green. Then the 2nd is a short par 4 that requires precision, followed by a beautiful par 5. I knew we would enjoy the course after the opening three holes!
The storm got near us on the 9th where it rained some on us. We took a break for about 20 minutes before heading back to the 10th tee thinking the storm had skirted the area. After our drives on the 12th hole a monsoon hit. That darn storm camped over us longer than Iggles fans tailgating for a 4 PM game vs the Giants. Thankfully there was a storm shelter down low by the 12th green. After the storm passed and after we visited a friend of our hosts near the course, we played holes 15 thru 18.
Andrew Green has begun a renovation of the course and it is just about to hit the meaty stages.
Anyway, I think you'll enjoy the photo album.
Use this link if you have a bigger monitor:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/NavalAcademy/index.html
Otherwise, use this link:
http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/NavalAcademy/index.html
-
A) It's Andrew Green.
B) Plans are in the pro shop, on public display.
C) It begins this summer.
-
Andrew Green is doing a complete and total renovation of Eisenhower Golf Course now, and it is the public option for Annapolis:
https://www.eisenhowergolf.com/ (https://www.eisenhowergolf.com/)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-JQ-DtWsAAHPf-.jpg:large)
When they are both done, that is a pretty good combination to tie into a Navy football game weekend.
Thanks Joe for posting, and I forwarded them to some friends. #GoNavy
-
Both courses were in need of some intensive love and care. Both courses have a good routing and interesting rolling terrain. Neither overwhelm you with length but the green complexes at the Academy are very good with a lot of slope on the greens. I used to play at the Academy four or five times a year when I lived in Annapolis and enjoyed the course. One, seven, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, and seventeen are standouts.
I played Eisenhower only three or four times but it has a lot of potential. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.
-
When the courses are complete, play golf and skip the football.
-
Glenn Dale is an interesting option in that area. Probably 30 mins west of USNA.
-
Glenn Dale is an interesting option in that area. Probably 30 mins west of USNA.
Glenn Dale is an interesting option indeed -- designed in the 1950s by George Cobb. Unfortunately, it's closing at year's end, so get there now.
-
Glenn Dale is an interesting option in that area. Probably 30 mins west of USNA.
Glenn Dale is an interesting option indeed -- designed in the 1950s by George Cobb. Unfortunately, it's closing at year's end, so get there now.
Sounds like a nice road trip to photo-document Glenn Dale! I hope I can make it work.
-
The 19th hole at Glenn Dale (the Black Hole) is unique. Glenn Dale is probably fewer than 10 miles from University of Maryland course also by Cobb. I haven't played UMD since it was renovated some time ago by Bill Love.
-
In the spirit of Jeff Warne's interview with before and after pics, the USNA golf course transformation has been started by Andrew Green:
Joe's #18 from last month:
(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/NavalAcademy/mediafiles/l84.jpg)
Andrew's #18 yesterday:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBN7NiNXkAMxKf8?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
#GoNavy
-
Having played this course countless times as a Midshipman, I always knew there was something special about this course (besides paying $100 a year to play as much as I wanted I believe). Of course, I knew nothing about it's lineage or history. I have been anxiously awaiting the past couple of days because for some reason I felt somehow the plan would not happen. I look forward to seeing this gem being polished.
-
Is the club actually "going back to the original Flynn holes?" That would be a heavy lift. Some of his holes were abandoned and the replacements from what I remember stand out as being obvious replacements (12, 13, and 14 are new holes with 14 playing to Flynn's original 14th green with new bunkers and from a new fairway 90 degrees offset from the original). Flynn's 3rd and 4th are now under the commissary. After seeing the photo of the new 18th green I'm curious how much attention is being given to keeping Flynn's original green surfaces. I believe his greens were never altered.
-
Is the club actually "going back to the original Flynn holes?" That would be a heavy lift. Some of his holes were abandoned and the replacements from what I remember stand out as being obvious replacements (12, 13, and 14 are new holes with 14 playing to Flynn's original 14th green with new bunkers and from a new fairway 90 degrees offset from the original). Flynn's 3rd and 4th are now under the commissary. After seeing the photo of the new 18th green I'm curious how much attention is being given to keeping Flynn's original green surfaces. I believe his greens were never altered.
Craig,
Here is the update:
https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/ac-cs-local-golf-report-0818-20190817-ylwxvnzk7nezplzaevmp7l3via-story.html (https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/ac-cs-local-golf-report-0818-20190817-ylwxvnzk7nezplzaevmp7l3via-story.html)
It is Flynn’s original plans that are being used as a guide for the current restoration. Those holes affected by the government’s need for land in the fifties, numbers 12 through 14, will be reconfigured.
No. 12, which has been a par 4, will become a long par 3 while No. 13 will change from a long par 4 to a double-dogleg par 5 that will measure 570 yards from the back tees, which are used mostly by the collegiate golfers. No. 14 will remain a par 4, but with added distance that could make it a par 5 for the average golfer.
And Andrew Green updates:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B1RgTVsFo8i/
-
I have never met Andrew Green, and I had a very brief email exchange with him a year or two ago when this renovation was in the concept stage. In the modern world of GCA renovations, he is pretty much adding us onto his crew. Here is his commentary on #18 at USNA, which I thought was the weakest hole on the back 9, but his comments about the "Hog's Back Fairway" made me re-think the hole as I have ALWAYS been left in the rough:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B1Znr56FWZc/
-
Comeback Tour in Annapolis by Tom and Wayne:
"Rick Woelfel is a Philadelphia-based writer and frequent GCI contributor. The author wishes to acknowledge the assistance of golf historian Wayne Morrison, the co-author, along with Thomas Paul, of The Nature Faker - William S. Flynn, Golf Course Architect."
https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/usna-naval-academy-golf-course-renovation-midshipmen/ (https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/usna-naval-academy-golf-course-renovation-midshipmen/)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGoI1B_XYAAEBeS?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/fileuploads/publications/24/issues/103583/articles/images/_15_Green_Finished_fmt.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE07lL6WwAAOxpo?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
#GoNavyBeatArmy
PS - On a separate note Andrew Green looks like he took over the renovation of the Congressional Blue course - https://twitter.com/GreenGCA (https://twitter.com/GreenGCA)
-
#GoNavyBeatArmy
PS - On a separate note Andrew Greene looks like he took over the renovation of the Congressional Blue course - https://twitter.com/GreenGCA (https://twitter.com/GreenGCA)
Cool thing about that, is Andy used to work on the maintenance staff at Congo. Was there for the 1997 Open.
-
Comeback Tour in Annapolis by Tom and Wayne:
"Rick Woelfel is a Philadelphia-based writer and frequent GCI contributor. The author wishes to acknowledge the assistance of golf historian Wayne Morrison, the co-author, along with Thomas Paul, of The Nature Faker - William S. Flynn, Golf Course Architect."
https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/usna-naval-academy-golf-course-renovation-midshipmen/ (https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/usna-naval-academy-golf-course-renovation-midshipmen/)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGoI1B_XYAAEBeS?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/fileuploads/publications/24/issues/103583/articles/images/_15_Green_Finished_fmt.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE07lL6WwAAOxpo?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
#GoNavyBeatArmy
PS - On a separate note Andrew Green looks like he took over the renovation of the Congressional Blue course - https://twitter.com/GreenGCA (https://twitter.com/GreenGCA)
Mike,
Thanks for sharing the article! I can't wait to play it after these changes.
Cheers,
Scott
#GOARMYBEATNAVY
-
If Green's work at USNA is anywhere near as good as what he did at Manasquan River it will be a home run.
-
#GoNavyBeatArmy
PS - On a separate note Andrew Greene looks like he took over the renovation of the Congressional Blue course - https://twitter.com/GreenGCA (https://twitter.com/GreenGCA)
Cool thing about that, is Andy used to work on the maintenance staff at Congo. Was there for the 1997 Open.
And I believe is doing the Congo renovation, following the club's decision not to proceed with Keith Foster.
-
Congrats to Admiral Mauz, USNA Golf Course, USNA Golf Team(s), AD Chet Gladchuck, Architect Andrew Green, and our old friend Uncle Bob Huntley who introduced many of us to the generosity of golf. I hope to play the "new" course in Annapolis this fall. The United States Naval Academy GC is now re-opened:
https://twitter.com/NavyMGolf/status/1292616930055147521 (https://twitter.com/NavyMGolf/status/1292616930055147521)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfVdUqiWkAIUDuM?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
-
Well that is good news. I'll have to play it when I get back to Annapolis. I always liked the course.
-
Admiral Henry Mauz is one of the great men in golf--and outside of golf! Former Academy golfer and later Commander of the Atlantic Fleet. Others were involved in this effort to resurrect the Academy course, but Hank has been the driving force from Day 1! Congratulations to all!
-
Looking forward to getting back down there.
Thanks for the update, Mike Sweeney...hope all is well with you and yours.
-
Update on the course from golf.com:
https://golf.com/travel/naval-academy-golf-course-best-never-heard/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=46711a7d8752dad1b1e7b5ee908db635b52d3af08061f8b9672ff1570f17bd75&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter
-
I hope to get there and the newly renovated bunkerless Eisenhower GC in August. I had played the Academy course dozens of times and always knew it could be special. Can’t wait to get there.
-
I am guessing a second course is a long shot, but "Uncle Chet" may have one more trick up his sleeve:
https://www.capitalgazette.com/news/ac-cn-greenbury-point-0511-20220511-rdmc35w6ofaoxdrgucunvrz6ke-story.html
Chet Gladchuk, president of Naval Academy Golf Association, said a golf course is just one element of the proposal the Naval Academy Golf Association submitted. Gladchuk also leads the academy’s Athletic Association. He said they don’t have a plan, but reached out to the Navy to see what it would support at Greenbury Point.
(https://images.bivy.com/lgTrailMap/4579800131829760.jpg)
-
The restoration is really good as is the NEW UBER reverse redan.
-
Twenty some years ago there was a proposal at the academy to add nine holes in the same location. It could have been special. We’ll see what happens now but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
-
Looks like the second course idea is on hold...at best
Battle over new Naval Academy golf course is a double bogey (navytimes.com) (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/08/22/battle-over-new-naval-academy-golf-course-is-a-double-bogey/?utm_source=sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mil-ebb)
-
Why is there a need for a second golf course? Who would benefit the most from a golf course? Who would benefit the most from a public access park?
Which would be less expensive to build/maintain? As a golf course would the funding include ongoing golf course expenses after construction if it does not pay for itself?
Which is environmentally more sustainable?
-
Any project that is perceived to affect the Chesapeake Bay negatively is doomed. The project, like its predecessor some twenty-five years ago, never really had a chance. That area was part of my run when I ran at the Academy. It is a beautiful natural area.
Of course, it is possible to maintain a course without affecting the Bay. Pine Ridge GC north of Baltimore borders a reservoir. Conditions suffer a bit but it even hosted numerous LPGA events in the 70s.