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The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA
Background
At the time of The Town & Country Club’s inception, Saint Paul, MN was one of the fastest growing cities in America with its population increasing over 70% from 1880 to 1886. (1) As a way to disapprove of a New York newspaper reporter who had described Saint Paul as “another Siberia, unfit for human habitation in the winter” local businessmen and politicians organized a Winter Carnival to showcase the City.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412002096635/home/Ice%20Castle.jpg)
Attractions at the early Saint Paul Winter Carnivals included an ice castle and “blanket tosses”
Town & Country Club was formed in 1888 as a year-round derivative of the Saint Paul Winter Carnival, originally housed in a clubhouse on Como Lake, just four miles northwest of downtown Saint Paul and six miles due east from downtown Minneapolis. Originally a social club used primarily for its dining, the club’s early membership included prominent railroad businessman (2) James J. Hill and Lucius P. Ordway, who would go on to co-build the company that is now known as 3M (3).
In 1890, in order to attract more members with a more centralized location, the club decided to purchase a plot of land almost directly between the two downtowns on the east bank of the Mississippi River. The land previously used as a cattle farm was situated on a bluff overlooking the river and primarily featured rolling land and a large ravine. The membership commissioned a new clubhouse which was designed by Cass Gilbert (4). The club has been situated at this location ever since.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412002103355/home/Orig%20Clubhouse.jpg)
The original Town & Country Club clubhouse
In 1893 a transplanted Scotsman named George McCree simultaneously created both the first golf course as well as played the first round of golf in Minnesota. He created a rudimentary design by hitting a golf shot or two and placing the flagstick where his ball ended up. The nine-hole course was located on pastureland where the present golf course sits today.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412002101480/home/Mississippi%20River%20View.jpg)
A view of the Mississippi River near the original site of The Town & Country Club Clubhouse
As golf’s popularity at Town & Country grew, so did the demand for a more formal golf course with mounding, bunkering, and greens. The nine-hole course was updated in 1897 and in 1907 the golf course became the first eighteen-hole course in Minnesota. While the course’s 18-hole design was long accredited to George McCree and Robert Foulis, recent research by local historian Rick Shefchik has shown that the primary designer was club member Ben Schurmeier. Schurmeier was one of the State’s best golfers at the turn of the 20th century and was the second President of the Minnesota Golf Association. While the current golf course has undergone some minor changes, primarily in 1926, the routing of the course is essentially unchanged and exists as it did in 1907.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412002093998/home/Early%20Aerial.jpg)
An early aerial view of the back nine at Town & Country Club
Town & Country has a long history of hosting championship amateur golf. The course was host to the 1951 USGA Women’s Amateur, the 1937 Women’s Western Amateur, eight Minnesota State Amateurs, and four Senior Minnesota State Amateur tournaments among many other events. The club was also selected to host the 1940 Walker Cup, in between hosts St. Andrews and Pine Valley, but the matches were canceled in the months leading up to the event due to World War II.
As the first golf club in Minnesota, Town & Country had a tremendous effect on the early growth of the game in the state. Founding and early members of the T&C would later leave to start their own clubs, such as Clive Jaffray did when he helped found The Minikahda Club six miles due west in Minneapolis or when Charles Gordon left to hire Seth Raynor to build the nearby Somerset CC.
Town & Country continues to thrive as a family golf club on the same property that early club members selected in 1893. What was then located in the “Country” is now located in the middle of the Twin Cities metropolitan area in a largely residential area of Saint Paul. The golf course, largely unchanged since 1927, remains as a throwback to a different era of golf course architecture.
Golf Course Tour to follow.
(1) http://www.winter-carnival.com/about_us/history/ (http://www.winter-carnival.com/about_us/history/)
(2) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/biography/streamliners-hill/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/biography/streamliners-hill/)
(3) http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G2-3427200011.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G2-3427200011.html)
(4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Gilbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Gilbert)
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With footnotes!
The Minnesota contingent held a West v. East match play event yesterday evening and were able to enjoy the course and all of the changes that have been made over the last few years.
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Pat --
I hope your photographs will be 3-D. Mr. Mucci thanks you in advance!
Have you (or Rick) ever seen this article -- alluded to in the March (I think) 1943 issue of Minnesota History magazine?
The "History of Town & Country Club" in St. Paul is sketched briefly
by Gil Foster, its greenkeeper, in the GreenXeepers' [sic?] Reporter, a golfer's
magazine published at St. Charles, Illinois, for September-October. He
relates that "golf was played at Town and Country Club as early as
1893," placing the St. Paul club among the earliest in the United States.
Here's my favorite picture from yesterday: Shane Wright playing up the hill (WAY up the hill) to the No. 5 green. That hill must be one of the steepest hills anywhere on which golf is played.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/photo6_zpsc972910b.jpg)
And here's my favorite hole on the course (at least until the demise of the arborvitae behind the par-3 No. 3): No. 11, a nearly 200-yard (from the back tee) par-3 -- high point to high point, to a green that slopes sharply from back down to front, with OB to the left and a steep, sharp dropoff (to what is apparently known as the "Valley of 5") on the right.
Never an easy par. Often not an easy bogey.
Pat will surely have closer-range pictures, but here's what it looks like from the back tee.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/photo7_zps896ebf01.jpg)
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One of the pleasant surprises from T&C yesterday was how firm it was playing. As a course known for its quality conditioning (typically very green), it was very fun to play it with some brown. Not only were drives rolling out further, but the greens demanded very precise irons. Any shot played from the rough almost required the ball to land short to hold the green. That was fun.
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(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085738280/3-and-4/Course%20Entrance.jpg)
The Entrance to the Golf Course
First hole, 324 yards, “Birches”;
The first hole at Town & Country is a short par-4 of 324 yards which plays much more difficult than the yardage would indicate. The fairway cants dramatically from the right to left, toward a stream that runs the entire left side of the hole.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021709566/1-and-2/1%20Tee.jpg)
Players that decide to play conservatively away from the water are faced with a lie with the ball well over the players feet and a shot that must carry a bunker. The green slopes severely back left to front left, therefore it is very difficult to hold the right side of the green when approaching from the right.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021618519/1-and-2/1%20right%20approach.jpg)
However, if the player decides to take a more aggressive line by using the fairway slope to roll their ball to the left side of the fairway, the player is awarded with a relatively flat lie and a more receptive angle toward the green.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021614475/1-and-2/1%20left%20approach.jpg)
Some very long drivers of the ball may elect to hit a more aggressive tee ball which if struck well will result in view such as this for their approach.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021610172/1-and-2/1%20Greensite.jpg)
The view from behind the hole further illustrates the dramatic tilt of the fairway.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021852053/1-and-2/Looking%20back%20on%201.jpg)
Walking off the first green, the player walks up the face of the ancient ravine toward the second tee.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021648271/1-and-2/Steps%20to%202.jpg)
Second hole, 110 yards;
After climbing up the stairs, the player is greeted by the short par-3 second hole. The hole plays no longer than 110 yards, although the hole is uphill and plays about a half club longer than the yardage would indicate. Typically, the putting surface is blind to the player and given the uphill shot many balls will roll toward the back of the green if not struck well. The front of the green slopes hard toward the tee, while the green flattens a bit toward the back. Large bunkers guard the putting surface from the tee, while shots hit hard right will careen down a long slope toward the first fairway and the push up nature of the green makes anything long or left a difficult up and down.
The view from the tee:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021642552/1-and-2/2%20tee.jpg)
Looking back at the tee box
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021627858/1-and-2/2%20looking%20back.jpg)
From behind the second green, the player begins to feel the intimacy of Town & Country’s routing where the third green, forth tee, eighth green, and ninth tee are all visible.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412021632698/1-and-2/2%20looking%20toward%203%20and%204.jpg)
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Pat --
I hope your photographs will be 3-D. Mr. Mucci thanks you in advance!
Have you (or Rick) ever seen this article -- alluded to in the March (I think) 1943 issue of Minnesota History magazine?
The "History of Town & Country Club" in St. Paul is sketched briefly
by Gil Foster, its greenkeeper, in the GreenXeepers' [sic?] Reporter, a golfer's
magazine published at St. Charles, Illinois, for September-October. He
relates that "golf was played at Town and Country Club as early as
1893," placing the St. Paul club among the earliest in the United States.
Dan -- I've never seen that piece, nor have I heard of Greenkeeper's Reporter. I'll try to dig it up.
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Pat,
Looking forward to the tour, it's been nearly 20 years since I played T & CC in our annual Manitoba vs. Minnesota Junior Team Matches. My foggy memory is becoming clearer with each photo posted, although Rick's photo of No. 11 is much more intimidating than I recall.
TK
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I do not have as much experience with the course as Pat but probably have played it 20 times. I will weigh in when my perceptions vary from Pat's description. I do so not so much out of disagreement but to show the difference in perception that can arise from limited and infrequent play over a course compared to the intimate knowledge Pat and other members have.
1 is a great opening hole. As Pat's pictures show, the slope of the green (from back right to front left) creates plenty of interest although I perceive the interest as related to the question of how aggressive one wants to be with the 2nd. The player knows he wants to be below the hole but it is a short shot and the temptation to hit it close is always present. The slope of the green is significant enough that even the uphill putt is a challenge. You need to hit it hard but also know that going long raises the possibility of a four putt.
I have never perceived the disadvantage of bailing out right off the tee to be significant because the hole is so short. I have thought of the decision off the tee to relate more to distance than line. The fairway squeezes together at driver length.
The creek left of the fairway is artificial. Generally, I am not in favor of such contrivances but it does make for a very appealing hazard that looks and plays much better than the muddy bog that would probably be there otherwise. If one wants to see an example of a nice fake creek this is a good one to study.
Pat - did they take down trees around 2 green? It seems much more exposed to wind now than I remember it being in the past.
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I do not have as much experience with the course as Pat but probably have played it 20 times. I will weigh in when my perceptions vary from Pat's description. I do so not so much out of disagreement but to show the difference in perception that can arise from limited and infrequent play over a course compared to the intimate knowledge Pat and other members have.
1 is a great opening hole. As Pat's pictures show, the slope of the green (from back right to front left) creates plenty of interest although I perceive the interest as related to the question of how aggressive one wants to be with the 2nd. The player knows he wants to be below the hole but it is a short shot and the temptation to hit it close is always present. The slope of the green is significant enough that even the uphill putt is a challenge. You need to hit it hard but also know that going long raises the possibility of a four putt.
I have never perceived the disadvantage of bailing out right off the tee to be significant because the hole is so short. I have thought of the decision off the tee to relate more to distance than line. The fairway squeezes together at driver length.
The creek left of the fairway is artificial. Generally, I am not in favor of such contrivances but it does make for a very appealing hazard that looks and plays much better than the muddy bog that would probably be there otherwise. If one wants to see an example of a nice fake creek this is a good one to study.
Pat - did they take down trees around 2 green? It seems much more exposed to wind now than I remember it being in the past.
Jason,
Thanks for sharing your perspective, which is welcome given that you have played the course a number of times over the last ten years or so. I hope you continue to contribute as this thread goes on.
I would agree with your take on #1. Given that the hole is not overly long, and that the tee shot is relevantly "tight" for an opening hole, I usually hit a 2-iron from the tee to get something in play. If the hole was later in the round, and I had already had a chance to hit a few drivers, I would probably hit a driver off the tee to leave myself a short pitch. A 2-iron usually leaves me with a 50* wedge shot for an approach. I typically like to have something more than a 56* wedge in my hand because for me it is easy to spin a sand wedge off the green toward the left green side rough.
From my experience, the right side of the fairway and/or right rough creates a more difficult approach shot primarily due to the likelihood of having a lie where the ball is above the players feet and a chance that the trees on the right might require a lower trajectory recovery shot. The "hook lie" on the right side of the fairway getting close to a middle-right pin (as shown in the pictures above) a more difficult task than the left side of the fairway, closer to the hazard.
As for the 2nd hole, there have been a number of trees removed around, and primarily behind, the green. Their removals have resulted in better turf on the putting surface as well as create a more intimidating target, in my opinion, even for a short par three.
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Pat,
Looking forward to the tour, it's been nearly 20 years since I played T & CC in our annual Manitoba vs. Minnesota Junior Team Matches. My foggy memory is becoming clearer with each photo posted, although Rick's photo of No. 11 is much more intimidating than I recall.
TK
Thanks Tyler, looking forward to hearing your thoughts as to how the course has changed over the last twenty years.
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As for the 2nd hole, there have been a number of trees removed around, and primarily behind, the green. Their removals have resulted in better turf on the putting surface as well as create a more intimidating target, in my opinion, even for a short par three.
I agree with the intimidation factor of removing trees. Number 5 at the U of M had the same effect when it lost a bunch of trees due to dutch elm disease. I know there is additional exposure to the wind but setting that aside the holes look substantially more difficult.
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Third hole, 163 yards;
The routing at T&C takes its first unusual turn as the player is presented with back-to-back par three holes. The third hole requires a mid-iron approach to a greensite that is slightly downhill from the tee.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085668142/3-and-4/3%20tee.jpg)
The view from short right gives a better view of the greensite.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085711298/3-and-4/3%20green.jpg)
A close up view of a greenside bunker looking over the green, toward the fourth tee and down the eighth fairway.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085706500/3-and-4/3%20green%20right.jpg)
Fourth hole, 490 yards, “Springs”;
The fourth hole is a short par five of 490 yards. The tee shot plays dramatically downhill to a fairway that slopes hard from right to left. Most players can decide how badly they want a birdie by deciding which club to hit off of the tee. A long iron or hybrid club will land in the widest portion of the fairway approximately 230 yards off of the tee, while a driver will have to find the narrowest portion of the fairway approximately 260 yards off of the tee. Regardless of club choice off of the tee, players must play the slope of the fairway as a draw that lands on the left side of the fairway has a chance of catching the creek that runs down the left side of the fairway.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085731103/3-and-4/4%20tee.jpg)
Once down in the fourth fairway, the wild movement in Town & Country’s property becomes evident when the player looks left and up toward the site of the 5th green.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412087714653/3-and-4/looking%20up%20at%205%20green.jpg)
A well struck drive will leave a blind, uphill, 230-240 yard approach to the green that must carry a small hill.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085726513/3-and-4/4%20second%20shot.jpg)
Players electing to conservatively lay up on their second shot will encounter an approach from a plateau that sits about 75 yards from the green.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085715395/3-and-4/4%20approach.jpg)
While most lower handicap golfers treat the reachable fourth a quality birdie opportunity, aggressive second shots must try to avoid the deep left greenside bunker.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085721714/3-and-4/4%20greenside%20bunker.jpg)
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On 3 - I recommend a Christmas Tree sale!
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085668142/3-and-4/3%20tee.jpg)
Also - it is interesting that the green size has shrunk dramatically as the pad extents at least 10-15 feet behind the current back edge. I am not sure the extra green would make for a better hole but it would look better.
I believe 4 has improved as much as any hole from the time I first played it. It used to be a tunnel of trees. It has been significantly opened up on the left side so that a shot left risks water and an awkward layup but not a lost ball. There is also a lot more air in the valley. I can remember feeling like I was in a sauna down there, even on a day with some wind.
One aspect Pat does not mention is that the hillside on the right features - no mow grass, a potential lost ball and a chip out. Thus - an aggressive play off the tee needs to risk that junk or else bounce left into another chip out.
I really like the 2nd shot on this hole - even though it is completely blind. To get to the green you need to take on a bunch of stuff that you can avoid with some more discretion.
This hole tempts from tee to green. One can play three conservative shots and have a reasonable shot at birdie (or an almost certain par unless you putt like a schitzophrenic gnat as I have lately). Doing so feels like a visit to your great grandmother - you know you should do it but you do not look forward to it.
One downside of the tight property is that the bail out 2nd to the right corresponds with the bail out tee shot on the 7th. Because the 2nd on this hole is blind, it is a pretty dangerous situation. I do not think you could get away with it on a public course but with some reasonable discretion, I imagine members handle it just fine.
Annother potential downside is that very long hitters are constrained by a hill at about the 270 mark. I am not sure of the carry to get to the top of the hill. I only think of that on the 2nd shot. Pat - has there been any thought of making that hill fairway to tempt such players to squeeze the ball up top?
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Pat:
The following appeared in the May 1913 edition of The American Golfer. Any idea if the changes discussed incorporating the new land were ever implemented?
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/ScreenShot2014-09-30at93252AM_zps1bc2254b.png)
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Pat:
The following appeared in the May 1913 edition of The American Golfer. Any idea if the changes discussed incorporating the new land were ever implemented?
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/ScreenShot2014-09-30at93252AM_zps1bc2254b.png)
Sven,
Yes. The new land was used to tweak the current 10th and 11th holes. The following passage is from Rick Shefchik's From Fields to Fairways:
Town & Country acquired additional property along Otis Avenue and Pelham Boulevard to the north and west of the course in 1913, and moved the tenth and eleventh fairways. The tenth hole was originally a 120-yard par 3 named Brook, but was changed to a 372-yard par 4. Eleven, originally an uphill dogleg left with its green just below the current seventeenth tee, became a 165-yard par-3.
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Pat - has there been any thought of making that hill fairway to tempt such players to squeeze the ball up top?
I'm not sure, Jason. The distance required to reach the top fairway would have to be in excess of 310 yards of carry. And given the amount of slope, I would think that if converted to fairway the slope would just bring most balls backward 30-40 yards toward the tee?
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I'm with Jason. That wall of green behind No. 3 has Got to Go! It serves absolutely no purpose, does it?
How much cooler would that hole look without the background! It would remind me even more of this beauty (which itself could stand to lose more background trees, perhaps): No 11 at Minikahda.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/kellys17_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/80BB7AE9-BD0C-40D5-9D04-87928705BEFC_zpslgffj2pe.jpg)
What I particularly like about No. 4 at T&C is that, unlike on some other holes there, the Long Hitter takes as big a risk from a mis-hit as a Shorter Hitter takes. Long left can be wet; long right can be lost in the weeds. Both shorter and longer hitters, playing conservatively, can make par or birdie; both, screwing up, can make 7 pretty easily.
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Fifth hole, 353 yards; “Billows”
The fifth and sixth holes at Town & Country play on and over some of the most severe land forms on the property. While only 353 yards, the fifth hole is demanding in that it requires two quality golf shots to ensure a par. The tee shot plays through a chute of trees to a narrow fairway below. A successful tee shot only needs to find the top of the hill approximately 175 yards away from the green as balls will roll and find their way down to the bottom of the fairway.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099936731/4-and-5/5%20tee.jpg)
The view from the top of the hill in the fairway shows the slope that most tee balls roll down and to the right toward the final resting place of most well struck shots. Club legend has it that Walter Hagen had laid up to this spot in past exhibitions as he claimed that he preferred to have a longer approach with the target visible versus being at the bottom of the hill for his approach with none of the putting surface visible. The picture below also illustrates the trouble that a player can find themselves if they spray their tee shot left or right.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099923382/4-and-5/5%20fairway.jpg)
The removal of a number of trees behind the fifth green in recent years has restored the skyline green feature at the fifth. After a well struck tee ball, a player is faced with this unnerving wedge shot to a target that consists of nothing more than a flagstick. Approach shots hit heavy have a habit of rolling back to the player’s feet, while shots hit over the green lead to a near automatic bogey.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099903825/4-and-5/5%20approach.jpg)
This photo from just short right of the putting surface does not do the slope in the green justice. The green slopes severely back to front, with what amounts to a false front for the first 20% of the putting surface.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099930632/4-and-5/5%20right%20green.jpg)
The below picture shows the limited room a player has over the putting surface.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099917297/4-and-5/5%20behind%20green.jpg)
While the following photo illustrates the punishment for hitting an approach shot just ten yards off the back of the green. Given the sever back-to-front nature of the green a bogey or even double bogey quickly becomes a good score on the fifth.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099910016/4-and-5/5%20behind%20green%20approach.jpg)
Sixth hole, 468 yards, “Boomerang”;
After a number of moderately short holes to start the round, the player is presented with what is perhaps the most difficult hole on the course. At nearly 470 yards, most players hit a driver downhill toward the fairway.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099970766/4-and-5/6%20tee.jpg)
After finding the fairway, the player will encounter this view from roughly 200 yards out for his second shot. For scale, see the approximately 2.5 to 3ft tall, white, 150-yard marker in the left center of the picture. The approach, while severe, is heroic and very exciting. The hill is tall enough that a high, well struck long iron or metalwood is required to carry the hazard.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099947357/4-and-5/6%20approach.jpg)
Looking back from the top of the hill toward the tee.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099957916/4-and-5/6%20looking%20back%20down%20hill.jpg)
At the top of the hill, the player is relieved to find that the approach is actually downhill toward the green.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099941954/4-and-5/6%20approach%20-%202.jpg)
The sixth green has a significant amount of internal movement which is dominated by a significant slope on the left portion of the green where the pin is located. The photo below also illustrates how now the 7th tee, 6th green, 13th tee, and 12th green are connected by fairway cut.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099952725/4-and-5/6%20greenside%20right.jpg)
Looking back on the sixth hole from behind the green.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412099964267/4-and-5/6%20looking%20back%20green.jpg)
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The 6th at T&C might be the most difficult par 4 in the Twin Cities. I hit my best drive there Sunday and was faced with an almost 200-yard shot that had to get straight up at impact to clear the hill. After failing to pull it off, I realized that I just don't have that shot. Laying back off the tee might help a bit, but I'm not sure I could get a three-wood high enough to clear the fairway ridge. Next time I play it, I'm just going to go with a 6- or 7-iron from the lower fairway and try to position the shot to leave myself a short wedge to the green. The green is extremely firm, too -- my gap wedge on Sunday landed short of the hole and released some 35 feet to the back fringe. It's just a tough, tough hole -- but a very good one.
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When I think of Town and Country I think of the 5th and 6th. Many people will complain about both holes but they are unique, dictated by the land on which they rest and present a series of interesting shots.
The 5th green is so steep that it presents an almost impossible dilemma - you want to make sure and get it on the green but if you go long of the flag you may not keep your putt on the green. I accidentally wound up on the Hagen spot off the tee this weekend after a poorly hit but straight drive. I can see some merit in his purported choice to play from there.
The 6th defies any conventional notions of par. It seems to play shorter than the listed yardage but still should probably should be played as a 3 shot hole by most. Getting the 2nd in the air is a challenge although it is easier from the far left side of the fairway as I learned this weekend.
Background trees used to give one a sense of the location of the 6th green. Now you do not know where it is. I would not something back there to give some frame of reference.
I like the short grass around the green. It seems to have a big effect on the character of the green. I never noticed how the rear of the green slopes to the back before the short grass.
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The 6th at T&C might be the most difficult par 4 in the Twin Cities. I hit my best drive there Sunday and was faced with an almost 200-yard shot that had to get straight up at impact to clear the hill. After failing to pull it off, I realized that I just don't have that shot. Laying back off the tee might help a bit, but I'm not sure I could get a three-wood high enough to clear the fairway ridge. Next time I play it, I'm just going to go with a 6- or 7-iron from the lower fairway and try to position the shot to leave myself a short wedge to the green. The green is extremely firm, too -- my gap wedge on Sunday landed short of the hole and released some 35 feet to the back fringe. It's just a tough, tough hole -- but a very good one.
I've played T&C seven or eight times, I suppose, and every time but one, I've hit a good drive and then a hard-hit hybrid or FW wood that has skipped off the hill and stopped well short of the green.
After I did it Sunday, I turned to Pat and said: "I just can't make that shot." I believe he took it as a criticism of the hole. Far from it. As you well know, I am quite capable of self-criticism. I hastened to add that I was finding fault with myself, not with the hole.
As for the hole: It's a damned hard par, and the epitome of quirk. You are probably right that the smart way for us to play it is as a three-shotter, hoping for a 30-yard pitch and a one-putt -- but I can't help myself. I'll get one over that damned hill if it kills me. And it might.
As for No. 5: Jason nails what it's all about.
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Pat, thanks for doing this thread! I look forward seeing it unfold. I really enjoyed my one play at T&CC. Full of quirk and fun with a some really tough holes like the 6th and 11th thrown in here and there. For some reason, I've always been drawn to courses on severe sites and T&CC certainly fits that bill. I agree that some further tree work would benefit the course, particularly behind the 3rd green. I would also love to see the short grass presentation of the 6/12 green and 7/13 tee area carried out in other spots around the course. But those nits don't detract from the overall experience in my opinion. At the end of the day, T&CC is just a really fun place to play golf.
Ed
PS - What was the name of the burger joint we went to? Well worth the decade it took off my life expectancy!
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I enjoy the pictures. Thanks for posting. The only club in the Twins that I have not played or seen as a caddie. I've always been mildly curious about it, but until now the reviews summarized the course as peculiarly interesting, but not spectacular.
I need to see it if I'm ever back in the summer.
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I need to see it if I'm ever back in the summer.
In the winter, it's something to see, too.
The 9th fairway (open to the public) is certainly one of the best sledding hills in the Twin Cities.
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PS - What was the name of the burger joint we went to? Well worth the decade it took off my life expectancy!
That would be the nearby, and epic, Blue Door Pub. If that burger took a decade off your life expectancy then I only have hours to live! ;D
http://www.thebluedoorpubmn.com/
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Seventh hole, 361 yards, “Cinch”;
After the tough sixth, and the wild fifth, the seventh hole at T&C can be considered somewhat of a breather. Laid out over a high ridge that runs along the far eastern property line, the seventh is a par-4 of 361 yards. While out of bounds lurks the entire left side of the hole, most players will hit either a driver or a 3-wood which favors the right side of the hole but must carry a fairway bunker.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174854048/7-8-9/7%20tee.jpg)
While players electing to hug the property line will find a slightly more open angle to the green, the green slopes hard from back left to front right making approach shots slightly more difficult to get close.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174843293/7-8-9/7%20100%20yards%20out.jpg)
Although most players will have either a short iron or wedge approach, the best angle of attack is from the right side of the fairway where the player can land and run their approach up the primarily slope of the green. The pin in the picture below is located just to the left of a severe internal contour of the green, making putts from above this pin particularly testy.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174847964/7-8-9/7%20approach.jpg)
Eighth hole, 366 yards;
The eighth hole begins what is arguably the best stretch of holes on the course. Also running along the same property line as the seventh, the ridge that was previously wide narrows considerably, adding strategic interest to the hole.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174875029/7-8-9/8%20tee.jpg)
A player that decides to strategically play away from the out of bounds on the left may elect to bail out right, however their ball will find a steep left to right slope in the fairway with their ball running down the ridge. Their trade off for playing away from the hazard is a largely blind second shot off a side hill lie that must carry two bunkers and remain short and right of a deep bunker that lurks left and behind the green.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174870026/7-8-9/8%20right%20approach.jpg)
However, the player that hits an aggressive drive down the left side of the fairway closer to the hazard, is rewarded with a clear angle to the green off a flat lie.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174864483/7-8-9/8%20left%20approach.jpg)
Like the seventh, the green slopes primarily back to front, and with a slightly less pronounced back left to front right tilt. Either way, long is a poor miss and makes for a difficult up and down.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174859529/7-8-9/8%20behind%20green.jpg)
Ninth hole, 414 yards, “Toboggan”;
Appropriately named, the ninth hole serves double duty as one of the best sledding hills in the Twin Cities come winter, although that isn’t always clear while standing on the tee.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174903049/7-8-9/9%20tee.jpg)
A player choosing to hit an easy driver or fairway wood off the tee will be faced with a blind downhill shot to the green, approximately 175 yards away. However, due to the severity of the downhill slope, the shot typically plays 10-15 yards shorter than the specified yardage.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174883084/7-8-9/9%20long%20approach.jpg)
Longer hitters hitting a driver are awarded a clear view of the green and a likely mid or short iron approach shot. It is possible with very well hit drives to “toboggan” down much of the slope, leaving a short but tricky approach shot with a wedge.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174892917/7-8-9/9%20short%20approach.jpg)
Regardless of the length of approach, most players find time to admire the view from the top of the hill toward downtown Minneapolis.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174897922/7-8-9/9%20skyline%20view.jpg)
Once the player descends down the slope, they are presented with what appears to be a typical back-to-front sloping green. However, due to an optical illusion the green is nearly flat with the back portion of the green actually sloping away from the player. Many players make the mistake of seeing what appears to be an uphill putt or chip, only to watch the ball race past the hole.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174880175/7-8-9/9%20green.jpg)
Looking back toward the tee, the player has a better appreciation for the downhill slope.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174887735/7-8-9/9%20looking%20back.jpg)
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Once the player descends down the slope, they are presented with what appears to be a typical back-to-front sloping green. However, due to an optical illusion the green is nearly flat with the back portion of the green actually sloping away from the player. Many players make the mistake of seeing what appears to be an uphill putt or chip, only to watch the ball race past the hole.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412174880175/7-8-9/9%20green.jpg)
Never occurred to me till now, but it seems to me that the 9th green presents the same optical illusion as the 15th green at Northland Country Club in Duluth. (Rick Shefchik -- Agree?) The approach is so steeply downhill that the green appears to be uphill from front to back, though it's not.
Of course, I could be wrong about Northland's 15. As I recall, I haven't gotten it right yet!
Probably pays to pay attention to the Big River (or the Big Lake) in the background. Water flows downhill!
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Based on my more limited experiences with them, 7 and 8 are among the dullest on the property. I think the holes are a bit too short for the strategic choices to be all that significant. The greens are difficult but usually both holes consist of a relatively straightforward tee shot and a short iron.
Pat obviously disagrees on 8. My perceptions could be an example of a sometime visitor missing the nuances that come with regular play.
I really like 9. It does not really conform to any design principles - it is basically a penal hole with trouble on both sides. The joy of the approach shot, the view and the deceiving nature of the green provide great fun and overwhelm any concern about design principles.
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Tenth hole, 377 yards, “Terrace”;
The tenth, while less than 380 yards, packs a significant punch. Playing along the northwest corner of the property, the fairway slopes hard right-to-left.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200424575/10-and-11/10%20tee.jpg)
While the player might assume that a drive finding the center of the fairway to be ideal, the reality is that it is anything but. The approach would naturally call for a left to right ball flight, however the slope of the fairway makes that type of shot nearly impossible. Given the trees short right and trouble left, any approach to the tenth green from anywhere right of the center of the fairway is very difficult.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200396160/10-and-11/10%20approach%20right.jpg)
A drive down the left portion of the fairway sets up a better angle to the green, even if the putting surface is uphill and completely blind to the player.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200392399/10-and-11/10%20approach%20left.jpg)
The below image better illustrates the hazards surrounding the green. The putting surface is flanked by high “no-mow” grass on the right, while a steep drop off looms on the left.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200405184/10-and-11/10%20green.jpg)
The benched green at the tenth is highly unique. Players hitting their approach shots left will find an up and down to be a difficult task.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200400784/10-and-11/10%20green%20left.jpg)
The view from behind the putting surface better shows the dramatic tilt of the fairway.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200418543/10-and-11/10%20looking%20back.jpg)
The walk to the eleventh tee.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200430785/10-and-11/10%20walk%20to%2011.jpg)
Eleventh hole, 186 yards, “Oaks”;
The eleventh hole might be the most difficult par three in the State of Minnesota. At nearly 190 yards, a player must hit a long iron to a green flanked by a deep bunker left, a steep 25 foot drop off right, out of bounds less than ten paces from the putting surface, and one of the most severe greens on the course. Whew!
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200489560/10-and-11/11%20tee.jpg)
While the left greenside bunker may not look like fun…
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200437199/10-and-11/11%20bunker.jpg)
…The steep drop off right of the green makes for very challenging recoveries.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200448636/10-and-11/11%20right%201.jpg)
From this angle, the player is further hindered by a green that is sloping away and to the left.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200484518/10-and-11/11%20right%202.jpg)
The view looking back toward the tee.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200442227/10-and-11/11%20looking%20back.jpg)
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I thought the par 3's at Town & Country were the strength of the golf course. It's rare to see such variety both in difficulty and length. I enjoyed the challenge of the 11th hole. It's rare that a par brings me this much satisfaction on a hole. :)
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On 3 - I recommend a Christmas Tree sale!
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412085668142/3-and-4/3%20tee.jpg)
Pat,
I agree with Jason on this one, even though I didn't notice them looking through your pictures the first time!!
TK
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Pat,
No. 10 has always stood out from my experience at T & CC, from the need to be positioned correctly off the tee to the exacting approach. Maybe that is because I remember trying to attack the green from the right hand side and not having a reliable fade in my arsenal. Do misses right of the green have a chance to bounce back onto the green?
I certainly don't remember No. 11 as being such a daunting hole, but it appears to be another gem!! Not surprisingly, it is those holes along the perimeter (No. 7, 8 & 12) which I don't recall very vividly, perhaps owing to the relatively tamer nature of the terrain, and the near identical bunker scheme on the back-to-back par 4's.
Great photos, look forward to seeing the rest of the tour.
TK
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Do misses right of the green have a chance to bounce back onto the green?
Tyler,
Typically, the hillside right of the tenth green typically bounces a ball left toward the putting surface. It's not a bounce I would count on, but for example this time of year the ground is firm and the grass less thick the ball is more likely to bounce/roll down. It certainly creates an extra element of chance, and a bit of excitement, when you overcompensate when playing away from the drop off left.
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I would like No. 10 a lot better if the hillsides were cut shorter, like the hillside to the right of No. 11.
As it is, left is death, and right can be death (or, as Pat notes, might not be, depending on which clump of long grass the ball first encounters -- a bit of Total Luck or Total Unluck). I think that every shot to the green, and every shot from either left or right of the green, would be more interesting with shorter grass.
For once, I'm not suggesting changes based on my own experience. No. 10 is one of the few holes I have played consistently well at T&C. I've experienced neither Death Left nor Death Right.
As I said before, No. 11 is my favorite hole on the course. What a brute! It has treated me brutally, and I love it all the more for doing so.
P.S. Looking once again at your picture from the left of No. 10, I see that the grass there now (recently) is considerably less impossible-looking than it has been most of the times I've been to T&C and watched my playing partners flailing away on that hillside. Even so, I think I'd like to see even shorter grass on that hillside. Is it too steep to cut it short, so that balls hit there would find their way to the bottom -- leaving multiple options for recovery?
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For once, I'm not suggesting changes based on my own experience. No. 10 is one of the few holes I have played consistently well at T&C. I've experienced neither Death Left nor Death Right.
Dan,
Now you've done it. You realize the impending doom that awaits you at the tenth next time you visit, right?
Pat,
Thanks for the tour, I'm really enjoying it. I've heard a fair bit about T&C and its quirky nature, but creating a picture in my mind's eye had been difficult until now.
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For once, I'm not suggesting changes based on my own experience. No. 10 is one of the few holes I have played consistently well at T&C. I've experienced neither Death Left nor Death Right.
Dan,
Now you've done it. You realize the impending doom that awaits you at the tenth next time you visit, right?
Matt --
I'm picturing a drive through the V-shaped tree in the right rough that JUST catches enough of a branch to drop into a treeside lie from which I can merely chop it out to the fairway.
Then I'll yank one left, into the longest, thickest tangle ever seen west (or east) of Carnoustie.
From there, my explosion shot will come out like a bat out of Hell (as my mother would have said) and end up high in the deep grass right of the green, on about a 40-degree slope.
As I attempt to pop it out of there and somehow keep it from scampering across the green into the left gunch (again!), I will trip, fall, break an arm and a leg ... and consider myself lucky to have got off with so light a punishment by the Golf Gods.
Dan
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For once, I'm not suggesting changes based on my own experience. No. 10 is one of the few holes I have played consistently well at T&C. I've experienced neither Death Left nor Death Right.
Dan,
Now you've done it. You realize the impending doom that awaits you at the tenth next time you visit, right?
Matt --
I'm picturing a drive through the V-shaped tree in the right rough that JUST catches enough of a branch to drop into a treeside lie from which I can merely chop it out to the fairway.
Then I'll yank one left, into the longest, thickest tangle ever seen west (or east) of Carnoustie.
From there, my explosion shot will come out like a bat out of Hell (as my mother would have said) and end up high in the deep grass right of the green, on about a 40-degree slope.
As I attempt to pop it out of there and somehow keep it from scampering across the green into the left gunch (again!), I will trip, fall, break an arm and a leg ... and consider myself lucky to have got off with so light a punishment by the Golf Gods.
Dan
That's how I usually play 10.
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Tenth hole, 377 yards, “Terrace”;
The tenth, while less than 380 yards, packs a significant punch. Playing along the northwest corner of the property, the fairway slopes hard right-to-left.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200424575/10-and-11/10%20tee.jpg)
I am a big fan of the 10th, but the ideal tee shot is a low hook below the tree on the left. I doubt anyone would list that as an ideal challenge but it is pretty fun to try. Right is extremely difficult - you have to fade it around the trees from a lie with the ball above your feet.
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the ideal tee shot is a low hook below the tree on the left.
Can't agree with you there, Jason. Seems to me the ideal shot is a fade. How are you going to keep a hook on that fairway, if you don't start it just inside the V tree?
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the ideal tee shot is a low hook below the tree on the left.
Can't agree with you there, Jason. Seems to me the ideal shot is a fade. How are you going to keep a hook on that fairway, if you don't start it just inside the V tree?
Dan,
I typically hit a 3-wood with a right-to-left ball flight, aimed at the left branch of the V tree. Once it lands the ball naturally moves toward the far left portion of the fairway or first cut of rough. I tend to agree with Jason that you're much better off with a hooked shot of the 10th than a fade, primarily because far left is much better than the center cut of the fairway.
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#10 is one of my favorite holes in the Twin Cities. It always has been. I love that it's 380 yards and keeps you a little on edge on the tee ball requiring a certain level of focus. But if you hit a straight drive, and a semi-precise 2nd shot, birdie is very achievable. If you are slightly off on the tee ball, there is still enough room to tease you on the approach but disaster looms.
Mishits to the hill on the right would be fun to watch bounce down. But I suspect they need to keep the vegetation in place to soak up water runoff before it affects the green.
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you're much better off with a hooked shot of the 10th than a fade, primarily because far left is much better than the center cut of the fairway.
It's a much better angle only if you tend to hit a draw, it seems to me. If you tend to hit a straight ball or a fade, the center of the fairway works fine.
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the ideal tee shot is a low hook below the tree on the left.
Can't agree with you there, Jason. Seems to me the ideal shot is a fade. How are you going to keep a hook on that fairway, if you don't start it just inside the V tree?
Dan,
I typically hit a 3-wood with a right-to-left ball flight, aimed at the left branch of the V tree. Once it lands the ball naturally moves toward the far left portion of the fairway or first cut of rough. I tend to agree with Jason that you're much better off with a hooked shot of the 10th than a fade, primarily because far left is much better than the center cut of the fairway.
I hit a low hook there on Sunday, and though the ball did run through the fairway and end up a few feet into the left rough, it was probably the best position I've ever been in after a tee shot on 10. I hit 9 or PW to pin-high and had a 10-foot birdie putt (that I missed badly.) It might have been the first time I've ever had a birdie putt on that green.
As for the green on 9, it is similar to 15 at Northland; I think both of them slope from back to front, though 9 at T&C also falls off a bit at the back, too.
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Mishits to the hill on the right would be fun to watch bounce down. But I suspect they need to keep the vegetation in place to soak up water runoff before it affects the green.
Yes, yes, yes to your first statement! And the mishits WAY up on the hill might bounce down all the way across the green and down the hill left of the green! How cool would that be? (I say: If you've got quirk, go quirky!)
And you could PURPOSELY hit it to the bottom of the hillside on the right and play it like a redan.
Not to mention: Shots up to the green from the left could be played PAST the green to the ultimate backstop, and then come back down.
I wonder about your second statement. Seems to me impossible, in that setting, for water to collect on that green. But I'd love to know, from someone who knows.
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Where is the V tree? I assumed it was the big one on the right but I do not see any V in the picture.
Left rough is where you want to be Dan.
Pat - is 11 the green with the most slope? I know there are other contenders but the last few times I have played the hole the pin has been back right which is very close to a slope that makes the ball roll back to you.
I have heard number 11 compared to the famous par 3 next to a road at Hoylake (7) that they have since changed for safety reasons. I have never played Hoylake so I do not know if the comparison is valid.
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Where is the V tree? I assumed it was the big one on the right but I do not see any V in the picture.
The V tree is in the right rough. You can see the left half of the V here, and the bottom of the V, but the right half is hidden here:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412200424575/10-and-11/10%20tee.jpg)
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Twelfth hole, 533 yards, “Beverly”;
Just steps from the back of the eleventh tee, the twelfth tee is located in the far northwest corner of the property. The hole is named after the road that runs along the entire left side of the hole. Most players will hit a driver off the tee, and must decide whether to hug the out of bounds on left side of the fairway or to flirt with the fairway bunker on the right.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280118084/12-13-14/12%20tee.jpg)
A personal favorite of the author’s, the fairway bunker on the 12th plays much larger than its size would indicate as the right portion of the fairway landing area slopes toward the bunker. Located approximately 250 yards from the back tees, a longer hitter is tempted to carry the hazard with his or her drive.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280087687/12-13-14/12%20fairway%20bunker.jpg)
If the player manages to carry the fairway hazard, they are rewarded with a downhill slope that will net the player additional roll out.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280094078/12-13-14/12%20fairway.jpg)
If a drive is hit poorly or a player decides to play conservatively and lay up on their second shot, the approach will be from a bottom of a hill giving the player a partially blind, uphill, shot with only the pin visible.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280113797/12-13-14/12%20low%20approach.jpg)
A closer inspection of the green shows that the approaches to the greenside bunkers are shaved to allow slightly errant approach shots to roll into the hazard more easily.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280107583/12-13-14/12%20green.jpg)
A look from the left side of the green shows the small target and the subtle internal contours. AW Tillinghast is responsible for redesigning this green as part of his PGA design tour in 1935.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280102000/12-13-14/12%20green%20left.jpg)
Thirteenth hole, 300 yards, “Down and Up”;
The thirteenth hole is the last par four on the course, and it is of the drivable variety. From the tee, players have the option of either hitting an iron to the lower portion of the fairway leaving a short but uphill and partially blind second shot, hitting a fairway wood to a plateau that is flanked with fairway bunkers that leaves a pitch shot, or hit a driver directly at the green.
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/13tee_zpse4e48d89.jpg)
Many more conservative players choose to lay up to this position from the tee, which is 100 yards from the green, but uphill and partially blind.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280904195/12-13-14/13%20low%20approach.jpg)
While others will try to sneak a slightly longer club up the hill to reach a flat portion of the fairway and just a pitch to the green.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280890354/12-13-14/13%20green.jpg)
Very tempting to many of today’s longer players, the thirteenth presents significant challenges to those that go for the green and miss. A miss left leaves a poor approach angle from below the putting surface.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280894483/12-13-14/13%20left%20green.jpg)
The “bailout” for those hitting driver is not much better than the left side of the green.
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/13rightgreen_zps9e3b7182.jpg)
Looking back on the thirteenth.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412280899616/12-13-14/13%20looking%20back.jpg)
Fourteenth hole, 235 yards;
After playing a 300 yard par four, the player is presented with a nearly 240 yard par three. Playing slightly downhill over relatively subtle property, most players will hit a long iron or fairway metal from the tee. Typically, a rolling shot landing short of the green is recommended.
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/14tee_zps8178690f.jpg)
The bunkers flanking the green allow for running, but slightly offline, tee shots to find them through closely mown grass feeding into them. In addition to another bunker long and to the left behind, the green slopes hard back-to-front.
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/14green_zpsebbf8b79.jpg)
Looking back on the fourteenth.
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/14frombehind_zps22e837c4.jpg)
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Pat --
On 13 Sunday, I hit a knockdown driver (or a hybrid; can't remember for sure) to about 100 yards, right down the middle -- and found myself looking at a *severely uphill* and semi-blind second.
Our two playing partners both hit full drivers, wild right -- considerably right; right of all the bunkers. They found their balls in what I considered much more friendly locations than my careful play. They were in the rough, yes, but not any nasty rough -- and they were looking at the green from relatively flat lies, at an elevation from which the green was fully visible, and there was no serious hazard in their way.
This all struck me as unfortunate. Don't know what can be done about it -- unless you guys decided to plant another field of that gorgeous long grass that you have between Nos. 5 and 6. But I think there should be a serious penalty for whaling away at the hole and missing dramatically right. There is, for doing the same thing to the left.
Dan
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Dan, I agree with you 100%. I think letting it get "hairy" like the other area you mentioned at 5/6 is the right approach.
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Where is the V tree? I assumed it was the big one on the right but I do not see any V in the picture.
Left rough is where you want to be Dan.
Pat - is 11 the green with the most slope? I know there are other contenders but the last few times I have played the hole the pin has been back right which is very close to a slope that makes the ball roll back to you.
I have heard number 11 compared to the famous par 3 next to a road at Hoylake (7) that they have since changed for safety reasons. I have never played Hoylake so I do not know if the comparison is valid.
Jason,
The "V" isn't easily seen in my picture as unfortunately there is a scrubby tree in between the tee and the tree.
The 11th green has a significant amount of slope. I think the 11th and 17th are probably the two greens at T&C with the most slope, with the first green just behind. As you note, other than the back-to-front slope, there is a good amount of internal contouring in the eleventh green. The right and left sides of the green actually seem to slope toward the middle of the surface. There is also a false front, which makes the first quarter of the green nearly unpinnable.
You are correct in that the 11th supposedly closely resembles the now NLE "Dowie" hole at Hoylake. That hole is detailed in a golfcoursearchitecture.net article:
Throughout most of its history, Hoylake’s most famous hole was the seventh, known as the Dowie after the club’s first captain. Well into the twentieth century, the Dowie, which had an out of bounds cop hard against the left edge of the green, to the extent that even well struck shots often fell foul of it, was regarded as one of golf’s greatest one shot holes.
Bernard Darwin, in The Golf Courses of the British Isles (1910) lauded the hole. “Next comes one of the finest short holes in the world, the Dowie,” he wrote. “There is a narrow triangular green, guarded on the right by some straggling rushes and on the left by an out-of-bounds field and cop; there is likewise a pot-bunker in front. To hit quite straight at this hole is the feat of a hero, for let the ball be ever so slightly pulled, and we shall infallibly be left playing our second shot from the tee. Nearly everybody slices at the Dowie out of pure fright, and is left with a tricky little running shot on to the green. The perfect shot starts out of the right, just to show that it has no intention of going out of bounds, and then swings round with a delicious hook, struggles through the little rush hollow, and so home on the green; it is a shot to dream of, but alas! seldom to play.”
The description certainly sounds familiar!!
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12 is a good solid par five but one of the more conventional holes on the course. The green was extremely firm last weekend.
13 is one of the more interesting holes on an interesting course. I don't think there is a clear winner with respect to choice of where you hit your tee shot. Each choice has positives and negatives which to me is the sign of a good hole. I really like blindness as a strategic consideration. I don't know anything about the far right position - I have not been up there since before they put in the bunkers.
A bunch of christmas trees used to be behind the 14th green. Once again, I think the green appears more difficult to hit without the trees behind them. I wonder it the hole could be made more interesting without the standard 4:00/8:00 bunkering. Then again - I am not sure it needs to be more interesting.
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Fifteenth hole, 553 yards, “Dale”;
The fifteenth is a slight dogleg right par five that plays over 550 yards. Off the tee the player has the choice to either play out to the left and short to the widest portion of the fairway or play aggressively over the trees on the right in order to carry a fairway banker and reach the green in two shots.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/904/Bwqhl7.jpg)
A more conservative player will have this view for his second shot. The aggressive player will have to carry the bunker on the right, or due to the fairway sloping right-to-left in the landing area, the ball will likely roll left into the rough.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/673/OqQRTc.jpg)
The green on this par five is interestingly placed at the bottom of a steep, but short, hill about 25 feet below most of the hole. Therefore, a player laying up to just 100 yards away from the green is still met with a blind approach.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/661/vBb7zZ.jpg)
Yet in just another 25 yards, the green is in full view.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/540/Nf3LyE.jpg)
Looking back at the fairway from the green, the slope short of the putting surface is more evident. It is also the primary strategic element in the hole. For example, on their approach, players must decide on whether they want to fly the ball onto the green, or land their ball short and run it down the slope.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/540/a1Cxr7.jpg)
The putting surface is shaped much like a sidewise saddle, with the front portion sloping away from the line of play, while the back portion slopes toward the middle of the green. An additional general tilt toward the river (left to right as looking from the fairway) makes this a very difficult green to read.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/540/LzsHqH.jpg)
Sixteenth hole, 521 yards, “Far Away”;
Local golfer Tom Lehman once proclaimed this was the worse golf hole he’d ever played after making a ten on this hole to lose the State Amateur…after being pin high in two shots! The sixteenth is the most reachable of the par fives on the back. The tee shot is uphill and a player must skirt a deep fairway bunker on the left, however once past the hazard the hole plays steadily downhill to the green.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/540/rlaG43.jpg)
The view of the approach from the middle of the fairway shows another partially blind shot toward the green. Most players will hit a long iron or fairway wood favoring the right side of fairway.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/633/Z7yosT.jpg)
Players laying up will be faced with a downhill shot off a downhill lie to a small kidney shaped green.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/538/TMREiD.jpg)
A closer view of the green shows the wide approach on the right side of the green, however a deep greenside bunker lurks with short grass more easily allowing balls to trickle in.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/904/l0McPm.jpg)
Looking back on the approach shows the downhill nature of the hole as well as the cant in the fairway that requires players trying to reach the hole in two to favor the east side of the fairway.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/745/UFm7AN.jpg)
Seventeenth hole, 551 yards, “Ben S”;
Named after the member who designed the first 18 hole golf course on the property, the seventeenth is the third par five in a row. From the back tee of this dogleg left, a player must hit their drive over a swale in the fairway.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/904/Gzjb3R.jpg)
Well hit drives will find this view for an approach from the middle of the fairway.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/904/FomKrc.jpg)
A difficult hole to reach in two shots, most aggressive players will try to get their second shots as close to the green as possible. The putting surface is very severe with a pronounced back-to-front slope and very little room to miss as the green is very shallow. In addition to a hazard behind the green, there is also a false front which makes approach shots difficult to judge, even with just a wedge.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/903/f0MILN.jpg)
A view from the left side of the hole shows the shallow, yet wide, nature of the seventeenth green.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/904/zJDRx3.jpg)
Walking off the seventeenth green, a player walks down from the elevated green toward the eighteenth tee.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/400x535q90/674/YdVWah.jpg)
Eighteenth hole, 170 yards, “Home”;
Walking down from the seventeenth hole, tired from playing three par fives in a row, the player gets his first glimpse of the par three finishing hole.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/540/qQzphj.jpg)
A difficult par three considering the yardage, most players will hit a mid-iron toward the green that slopes severely from the back-left to the front-right.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/908/rZBZIj.jpg)
An enjoyable way to finish a match, the eighteenth hole yields just as many double bogeys as birdies.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/537/sibwBL.jpg)
From the green, the player is rewarded with a nice vista which includes the first fairway, tempting the player to give it another go immediately.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/716x535q90/909/S6oYno.jpg)
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Pat, is it ever really possible to have a ball roll down the hill on 15 and stay on the green? I certainly wish it were. Balls that bounced down the hill to the green went through the green on Sunday into the back rough. I dropped the ball at the top of the slope and it rolled over the green into the rough. Just curious.
I really like it that more of the hillside is being mowed to Fairway Heights now, but it loses some of its charm if you can't bounce a ball onto the green.
I like 16 and 17 it just fine as they are, and I think 18 is a great finishing hole.
One more note: you often refer to the more conservative player; what I think you mean is shorter player. Town & Country looks very, very different to me, for example, than it does to you and Shane Wright, regardless of how conservative or risk taking we might be.
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Great looking golf course on an impressive piece of property. It looks overtreed, but many courses come off that way on photographs. I was struck by the three straight par 5's (15-17) sandwiched by two par 3's (14 and 18). That's pretty unusual in my experience.
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Great looking golf course on an impressive piece of property. It looks overtreed, but many courses come off that way on photographs. I was struck by the three straight par 5's (15-17) sandwiched by two par 3's (14 and 18). That's pretty unusual in my experience.
Terry, I don't think Town & Country is really overtreed, other than those trees behind the third green and the arborvitae behind the 18th green I would take out some others, but not too many trees Clog the golf course. The biggest masses of trees are along the edges of the property, where shots out of bounds would find heavy traffic very often. My guess is that they have prevented lots of broken windshields.
Let us put it this way: Town & Country is considerably less overtreed than it used to be.
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Pat:
Just a quick note of thanks for posting this -- a course I've driven by hundreds of times but never played. It reminds me a lot of Blackhawk CC here in the Madison WI area -- a course full of quirks but a lot of good architecture on a very constrained and rollicking site:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41775.0.html
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My commentary:
15: A friend and I both had 100 yard approaches to the green. He hit a good shot that landed in the middle of the green. I hit mine fat. We both ended up with a nasty chip from the rough behind the green. The course was extremely firm and I have not experienced a similar effect in past visits.
16. - My favorite of the 3 par fives in a row. I am not sure of the yardage but it is reachable with some helping wind. The slopes create significant interest on both the tee shot and 2nd.
17 - very severe green. Its condition has improved greatly after removing trees behind it.
18 - I really enjoy finishing with a par 3. Perhaps that is because it is a novelty but it seems to create more drama to end matches.
To me Town and Country is a wonderful experience. I don't think one should think of its quality in terms of whether it is better or worse than others. If forced to make that sort of ranking, I would rank many courses in the area much more highly.
However, I am starting to think of the quality of golf courses in terms of a menu of diffierent options. No one ranks different food choices. One person might like steak and another person pasta. Most, like to alternate between those choices and are happy with either as long as it is well prepared and interesting.
Town and County is like a unique menu option that can expand your sense of what a fun golf course experience should be. You will hit shots at Town and Country that you do not hit anywhere else. You will think your way through the entire round. You will need to hit good shots, avoid the trouble spots and take your medicine in situations where you have screwed up. Many of these types of experiences have been eliminated in an effort to create homogonous experiences that fit within the expectations of the golfer of what constitutes quality golf. Town and Country is more like a unique botique experience that most will love, some will hate and all will remember.
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Great looking golf course on an impressive piece of property. It looks overtreed, but many courses come off that way on photographs. I was struck by the three straight par 5's (15-17) sandwiched by two par 3's (14 and 18). That's pretty unusual in my experience.
Terry, I don't think Town & Country is really overtreed, other than those trees behind the third green and the arborvitae behind the 18th green I would take out some others, but not too many trees Clog the golf course. The biggest masses of trees are along the edges of the property, where shots out of bounds would find heavy traffic very often. My guess is that they have prevented lots of broken windshields.
Let us put it this way: Town & Country is considerably less overtreed than it used to be.
Terry,
Thank you for your comment. The golf course at T&C sits an a really great piece of property. It's very small (~95 acres) but it's general slope toward the mighty Mississippi allows for the site to drain exceptionally well and for the course to play pretty consistently firm. Also a big asset are the internal contours of the site...I think others will attest to the fact that photos don't quite to justice to the severity of the different swales, hills, and features.
I would agree with you, in that in my personal opinion, the course is still overtreed. Dan is correct in that it is less overtreed than it used to be, however additional removals would continue to do wonders in clearing up internal vistas and further allowing the property's inherent features to come more alive and be more visually stunning.
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To me Town and Country is a wonderful experience. I don't think one should think of its quality in terms of whether it is better or worse than others. If forced to make that sort of ranking, I would rank many courses in the area much more highly.
However, I am starting to think of the quality of golf courses in terms of a menu of diffierent options. No one ranks different food choices. One person might like steak and another person pasta. Most, like to alternate between those choices and are happy with either as long as it is well prepared and interesting.
Town and County is like a unique menu option that can expand your sense of what a fun golf course experience should be. You will hit shots at Town and Country that you do not hit anywhere else. You will think your way through the entire round. You will need to hit good shots, avoid the trouble spots and take your medicine in situations where you have screwed up. Many of these types of experiences have been eliminated in an effort to create homogeneous experiences that fit within the expectations of the golfer of what constitutes quality golf. Town and Country is more like a unique boutique experience that most will love, some will hate and all will remember.
Jason,
Thank you for this fantastic commentary. I think you really hit the nail on the head.
Town & Country is ultimately a unique, quirky, and interesting experience. I don't know if anyone is going to say that it is a better or more architecturally sound golf course than say, Interlachen or Minikahda, but it excels as a it's own "flavor." The course is still very much a throwback and many of the holes, as you've noted above, make no logical sense in a tradtional GCA-way of thinking, but it just kind of works.
My personal tastes skew toward classic golf courses, and more quirky ones at that. There are plenty of courses that offer a more straightforward challenge, but I quickly bore of straight par-4's over 400 yards that travel through a typical parkland setting. The main reason that I choose to call Town & Country my home course is that every time I play I always find the holes interesting, and most importantly: fun!
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Pat, is it ever really possible to have a ball roll down the hill on 15 and stay on the green? I certainly wish it were. Balls that bounced down the hill to the green went through the green on Sunday into the back rough. I dropped the ball at the top of the slope and it rolled over the green into the rough. Just curious.
I really like it that more of the hillside is being mowed to Fairway Heights now, but it loses some of its charm if you can't bounce a ball onto the green.
I like 16 and 17 it just fine as they are, and I think 18 is a great finishing hole.
One more note: you often refer to the more conservative player; what I think you mean is shorter player. Town & Country looks very, very different to me, for example, than it does to you and Shane Wright, regardless of how conservative or risk taking we might be.
Dan,
Yes, it is possible to roll a ball down the hill and have is stay on the putting surface. The trick is to have a shot approaching the top of the hill at a gentle pace, favoring the left side a bit. A couple of weeks prior I had hit my 2nd to the right and had a silver maple blocking a high wedge shot to the green from about 80 yards out...I pitched a ball to the top of the hill and after about 30 seconds of rolling it found the bottom of the cup in the middle-right side of the green for an eagle.
Prior to widening that approach, the majority of rolling shots would just find the rough in front of the green, making for a very awkward chip/pitch. If it were up to me, I would further widen the fairway approach by another 15-20 yards out to the east side of the fairway/green.
In terms of the conservative/shorter player, I see what you are saying but that's not necessarily the case. Hitting a long iron off the tee on either 13 or 15, for example, are very much possibilities for me if I'm trying to play those holes more conservatively. I agree that I might have different options than a shorter hitter, but if I'm trying to win a match by playing conservatively, my shot selection on say 15-17 is going to be a lot more different than if I was down and trying to come back to win.
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Thanks for the photo tour, Pat. I was fortunate enough to see T&C a few years back, and it's nice seeing that some tree removal has gone one. The biggest negative to the course is having trees or tall grass hide some really amazing contours. Even where interior trees don't dramatically impede play, the land would look so much better without many of them.
T&C is a superb example of letting the land determine the routing. It would be fascinating to see how other architects would have handled the hilly, compact site. I think that the course that is there is quite good and deserving of more attention. It would be very much at home in England (and that's a compliment).
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Yes, it is possible to roll a ball down the hill and have is stay on the putting surface. The trick is to have a shot approaching the top of the hill at a gentle pace, favoring the left side a bit. A couple of weeks prior I had hit my 2nd to the right and had a silver maple blocking a high wedge shot to the green from about 80 yards out...I pitched a ball to the top of the hill and after about 30 seconds of rolling it found the bottom of the cup in the middle-right side of the green for an eagle.
Prior to widening that approach, the majority of rolling shots would just find the rough in front of the green, making for a very awkward chip/pitch. If it were up to me, I would further widen the fairway approach by another 15-20 yards out to the east side of the fairway/green.
Pat --
If your ball hadn't hit the stick, would it have rolled over the green into the rough? (Emoticons omitted.)
I agree with you that I would continue to widen the approach hill that is mowed shorter than rough height. I wonder, though, if that hillside doesn't demand its very own mower height, somewhere between the fairway cut and the rough cut, to allow balls to bounce/trickle down the hill AND stay on the green.
I, too, think Jason has summarized the "flavor" of Town & Country very deftly. I've heard quite a few guys say they don't care for that flavor -- "crazy bounces" have been cited more than once -- but it certainly is a memorable flavor, worth savoring when you get the chance to experience it, even if a person might not care for it as the staple of his diet.
As the French say: Chacun a son gout!
Thanks for the photo tour.
Dan
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Pat, thanks for the outstanding photo tour. As a fellow member at T&CC, it is exciting and interesting to hear others' thoughts on the course that we call home. T&CC is a very sporty, members club--charming with its clever routing, unusual par lay out, and ingenious relationship with a fascinating piece of land in a great old, urban neighborhood and only blocks from the Mississippi River. I never tire of playing the course. T&CC is quirk exemplified as there are several aspects that don't fit normal constructs, or would not be done over again. But without those it would be a lot like too many other courses. The recent course projects have improved or restored playability, strategy, and course conditioning. There is still work to be done.
Also, we are lucky to have one of the best turfgrass management crews around, to which most of the credit for praise received should go due to their hard work, dedication, and stewardship.
The only bad part of T&CC and golf in Minnesota is that winter is staring us in the face, waiting for us to blink.
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Thanks for the photo tour, Pat. I was fortunate enough to see T&C a few years back, and it's nice seeing that some tree removal has gone one. The biggest negative to the course is having trees or tall grass hide some really amazing contours. Even where interior trees don't dramatically impede play, the land would look so much better without many of them.
T&C is a superb example of letting the land determine the routing. It would be fascinating to see how other architects would have handled the hilly, compact site. I think that the course that is there is quite good and deserving of more attention. It would be very much at home in England (and that's a compliment).
John, there have been a number of routings over the same pasture land since the first six-hole course opened there in 1893. Here's a map from the St. Paul Globe of the routing of the 9-hole course in 1896 (unfortunately, the top of the photo is south, not north, and the right side is west, not east.) There's a fantastic map in the T&C clubhouse that features the various routings of the course, overlayed to show how the course changed over time. I don't believe there's a smaller, reproduceable version of that overlay map available, but I'd sure like to see an artist or golf course historian make a small version of it so we could compare it to this first routing map and see the evolution of the course. If somebody is handy with Photoshop and could at least overlay the current routing onto this map, that would be very interesting to look at.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/rshefchik/1896map-StPaulGlobe.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/rshefchik/media/1896map-StPaulGlobe.jpg.html)
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I really enjoyed the round at T&C hosted by Pat and his group. It was interesting that the member in our group rarely played the course from the 'tips' which was about 6400 yards (he wasn't a short hitter)and usually played from the next tee up at 6,100 -- that was the longest 6,400 yard course I can remember playing. He commented that the majority of the rounds are played from 6,100. I think a T&C handicap would travel pretty well. Also Pat is very modest but he has won the Club Championship 2 of his 3 years there including this summer so he obviously knows how to get around the place --not so much how to make friends at your new club.
I'll leave all the historical stuff to Rick and Dan but the involvement of Robert Foulis is very interesting to me given similarities I see to Glen Echo in St Louis -- (I went to the archives and found this which had to be one of my original threads which gives a good history of the Brothers courtesy of Jim Healey http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,605.0.html )
Town and Country is a great 'Urban Oasis' with a very nice routing, lot's of half par holes and a great maintenance meld --I love where the fairway is cut right up to the bunkers on 12 and several other places. Obviously a lot of passion for the course with Pat and Neil and while I can't compare it to 'before' the changes that have been described are outstanding.
Buck
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Thanks for the photo tour, Pat. I was fortunate enough to see T&C a few years back, and it's nice seeing that some tree removal has gone one. The biggest negative to the course is having trees or tall grass hide some really amazing contours. Even where interior trees don't dramatically impede play, the land would look so much better without many of them.
T&C is a superb example of letting the land determine the routing. It would be fascinating to see how other architects would have handled the hilly, compact site. I think that the course that is there is quite good and deserving of more attention. It would be very much at home in England (and that's a compliment).
John, there have been a number of routings over the same pasture land since the first six-hole course opened there in 1893. Here's a map from the St. Paul Globe of the routing of the 9-hole course in 1896 (unfortunately, the top of the photo is south, not north, and the right side is west, not east.) There's a fantastic map in the T&C clubhouse that features the various routings of the course, overlayed to show how the course changed over time. I don't believe there's a smaller, reproduceable version of that overlay map available, but I'd sure like to see an artist or golf course historian make a small version of it so we could compare it to this first routing map and see the evolution of the course. If somebody is handy with Photoshop and could at least overlay the current routing onto this map, that would be very interesting to look at.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/rshefchik/1896map-StPaulGlobe.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/rshefchik/media/1896map-StPaulGlobe.jpg.html)
Rick,
At some point in the coming days I'll try to drop by and study the maps in the clubhouse and see if I can come up with a hybrid map.
Just looking at the map it seems like the scale is way off?
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Pat --
Played your course again this afternoon, with Joe S.
Met your superintendent (Bill Larson) as we played the 6th hole. He literally ran over Joe's ball, purely by accident, and it squirted out of the rough into the fairway!
Anyway, Joe introduced me, and he said: "Dan Kelly? The one from the golf site?"
Almost like Ed Baker and the Pizza Man!
Since he already knew me, more or less, I complimented him on the work he's done ... and immediately launched into a campaign for additional tree removal! That's a hard sell with Joe; Bill smiled and nodded as I pointed to some meaningless conifers and said they were pointless trees and interfered with the fine vistas at T&C. He said something like: "See, Joe? What I've been telling you!"
Anyway, I'm particularly pleased to report that I literally dropped a ball at the top of the hill on 15 and watched as it rolled and rolled and rolled ... and STAYED ON THE GREEN, SHORT OF THE BACK-RIGHT HOLE!
Then I found my actual ball. I was 30 yards short right. Two options: little flop shot, hoping to hit it perfectly and have it hold the green -- or: Pitch it out to the middle of the fairway, 90 degrees away from my ultimate target, and let it trickle down to the right. Naturally, I chose the second route -- and should have pitched it 120 degrees away from my target, because the 90-degree shot came up about 20 feet short of the hole. I needed to go a few yards farther up the hill.
Man, those greens are demanding... they make T&C the toughest short course I've ever played.
Dan
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Pat --
Played your course again this afternoon, with Joe S.
Met your superintendent (Bill Larson) as we played the 6th hole. He literally ran over Joe's ball, purely by accident, and it squirted out of the rough into the fairway!
Anyway, Joe introduced me, and he said: "Dan Kelly? The one from the golf site?"
Almost like Ed Baker and the Pizza Man!
Since he already knew me, more or less, I complimented him on the work he's done ... and immediately launched into a campaign for additional tree removal! That's a hard sell with Joe; Bill smiled and nodded as I pointed to some meaningless conifers and said they were pointless trees and interfered with the fine vistas at T&C. He said something like: "See, Joe? What I've been telling you!"
Anyway, I'm particularly pleased to report that I literally dropped a ball at the top of the hill on 15 and watched as it rolled and rolled and rolled ... and STAYED ON THE GREEN, SHORT OF THE BACK-RIGHT HOLE!
Then I found my actual ball. I was 30 yards short right. Two options: little flop shot, hoping to hit it perfectly and have it hold the green -- or: Pitch it out to the middle of the fairway, 90 degrees away from my ultimate target, and let it trickle down to the right. Naturally, I chose the second route -- and should have pitched it 120 degrees away from my target, because the 90-degree shot came up about 20 feet short of the hole. I needed to go a few yards farther up the hill.
Man, those greens are demanding... they make T&C the toughest short course I've ever played.
Dan
Dan,
I'm glad you got to enjoy another round out at T&C this fall. I was able to get out a couple of days after you and the course has firmed up significantly since the last time you played a couple of weeks ago.
I have had that 30 yard pitch from just short of #15 many times...at first glance it might look easy but it requires a pretty delicate shot!
I'm glad that you were able to meet Bill Larson. Bill & his team are incredible and deserve so much credit for the work that they did over the past two seasons. Everything done to the course was completed 100% in-house with the existing crew, who worked long hours to not only complete the core daily maintenance of the course, but also to renovate all of the bunkers, build new tee complexes, remove trees, change mowing lines, and establish new no-mow/fescue areas. Truly an awesome job.
Thanks for the additional help in selling future tree work at the club! T&C has come a long way, but there is still some work to be done.
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I was able to take a few pictures of the different historical routings displayed in the clubhouse last evening, as was discussed earlier in this thread. I thought I would compile them all in one post. I apologize in advance for the poor photo quality. In each picture you will see a previous routing in light grey overlaid on that year’s routing.
The first known routing is from the St. Paul Globe in 1896. I flipped the map so that north is up:
1896
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/650x466q90/673/XCb2Np.jpg)
E.J. Frost, a amateur golfer from Chicago, was brought to T&C to design an updated nine hole course in 1895.
1898
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/330x442q90/538/Tp8i3V.jpg)
By 1898, the routing of the nine hole course appears to be significantly different. Starting with the second hole which is routed directly to the east, up a steep slope to where the 17th green currently sits. It should be noted that the 8th hole above runs along in the same direction and on the same land used for the 8th hole today.
It should also be noted, that when the Club decided to upgrade their course again in 1897, C.B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigham were invited to visit and offer advice on its design. While early aerial photos suggest a MacDonald/Geometric style to many of the holes, no evidence has been dug up that shows that MacDonald and Whigham actually made the trip. MacDonald later wrote a letter of recommendation to the Club recommending Robert Foulis for its Head Professional position. He would later move from Onwentsia in Chicago to Town & Country in Saint Paul, and eventually to Bellerive CC in Saint Louis.
1907
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/330x442q90/673/xHpW5l.jpg)
The first 18-hole routing at Town & Country and the first 18-hole golf course in Minnesota. Ben Schurmeier is responsible for this routing.
1920
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/330x442q90/661/4FB54V.jpg)
After purchasing land in the northwest corner of the property, the 10th hole is converted to a par-4, the 11th is converted to a par-3, and the 12th hole is lengthened. In the 1920’s A.W. Tillinghast redesigned the 12th green and adjusted the 13th tee, while it is noted in club archives that Tom Vardon had been at the club to make some minor adjustments, in particular the 8th and 9th holes. It is still unclear due to missing Board notes who is responsible for the rest of the major routing changes in the 1920’s.
1998
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/330x442q90/673/NDKoJE.jpg)
From 1920 to 1998, the golf course’s routing remained largely unchanged. The major differences being added tees and adjustments to the bunkering.
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Thanks so much for doing this, Pat. It's great to have these maps online to study, rather than trying to do a memory drive-by on those occasions I've been in the clubhouse.
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The Tillinghast Association website lists T&C as a "reconstruction" in 1937. But, like Pat said, I've always heard he only worked on the 12th green site and 13th tee box.
Clearly, the most important piece of information to have would be who did the work in the 20's to give us the course we essentially play today. But we've been unable to track down board or committee minutes going back that far. They existing as recently as 25-30 years ago as they are referenced in relation to the production of the 100th anniversary book. Plus, I'd be curious to know just what the club relied on to produce the course overlays in 1998.
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I found this on an old Tillinghast thread here.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
April 30th 1937
President of the PGA
Dear Sir:
This is the third rainy day in succession. I am leaving for Rochester this afternoon and tomorrow I will be at the Mayo Clinic again, leaving immediately after for northern Wisconsin. I am scheduled to make a golf talk at Rochester tonight.
Before leaving Saint Paul I was able to visit two additional courses at the urgent request of PGA members Herb Snow and Jock Hendry, at Hillcrest Golf Club and Town and Country Club respectively.
Hendry's problem concerned the 12th hole, where a new green is planned. I located this for him, with definite instructions for contouring and bunkering, and also located a new teeing-ground for the 13th, a natural, which will make a fine new hole.
At Hillcrest I inspected the reconstruction work on the new 17th and 18th holes, which I planned for them when I was last here. I found that my instructions had been followed faithfully and two very good holes have been developed. Here I was accompanied by Snow, G.W. Anderson (Chairman of the Green Committee and city champion on numerous occasions) and Stan Graves (Greenkeeper)
My next report will be sent to you on Monday evening, after my arrival in northern Wisconsin.
I find that we have another PGA member at Rochester (in addtion to Ernnie Wilmot at the Country Club) Herb Thienell at Soldiers Field and I will call on him.
Very truly yours
A.W. Tillinghast
AWT
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I thought I would share a few of the old aerials I’ve compiled, in conjunction with the different routings I posted yesterday:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1072x509q90/631/Bd6D5b.jpg)
The south portion of the course in the 1920’s
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/750x450q90/910/QW6oeg.jpg)
The north portion of the course in the 1920’s
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/524x610q90/743/W7cLGP.jpg)
1930
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/524x610q90/910/573nAx.jpg)
1945
Five years after the Club was awarded the Walker Cup
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/639x474q90/674/Kntd1t.png)
What is now the 9th hole (left) and the old par-3 9th looking towards downtown Minneapolis
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x479q90/910/g2tqv5.jpg)
A view of the back nine from roughly the same era
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/461x610q90/745/Hu2wPe.jpg)
1957
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/483x610q90/537/PeWLbW.jpg)
1964
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/637x610q90/673/rzO5oG.png)
Spring 2012
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You can see the Tillinghast changes in the 12th green and 13th tee from the 1930 picture to the 1945 picture.
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A member that read this thread commented that the trees behind 3 are needed because of safety issues associated with approaches to 8. I have never considered that issue.
Looking at a map the back edge of 3 green is 42 yards from the right edge of 8 green. I could see how very wild short right shot on 8 could reach the back of 3.
I am not sure the trees would make a huge difference on the issue but I would be interested in hearing from Neil and Pat on the issue.
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That's a common refrain from people who like trees, although I've never heard that said about the trees behind 3 (generally people claim they don't want to see Cretin or the houses outside of the property). If safety is the reason, the trees aren't located in the correct spot. And the 3rd green was exposed for probably 80 years before the trees were installed to act as a backdrop, not as a safety mechanism. Regardless, I don't know that in 6 years playing golf at T&C I have seen a shot from 8 hit on a line that would end up on the 3rd green, yet were stopped by the trees that are there.
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A member that read this thread commented that the trees behind 3 are needed because of safety issues associated with approaches to 8. I have never considered that issue.
Looking at a map the back edge of 3 green is 42 yards from the right edge of 8 green. I could see how very wild short right shot on 8 could reach the back of 3.
I am not sure the trees would make a huge difference on the issue but I would be interested in hearing from Neil and Pat on the issue.
My personal opinion on the trees behind #3 (as well as other similar evergreen "screens") is that they should absolutely be removed. I've been told that they remain standing because members don't want to be able to see the neighborhood beyond the property line (for the record, Neil & I live in that neighborhood ;D ), not that those trees somehow make the course safer. I've heard far more negative thoughts on those trees then positive from other members, but I believe they survive primarily due to "political" reasons within the club.
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I've been told that they remain standing because members don't want to be able to see the neighborhood beyond the property line...
Sigh. What is wrong with people (particularly "members")?
If they didn't want to see the town, maybe they should have joined the Country & Country Club!
As for trees and safety ... I've said it 100 times before, and I'll say it a 101st: I got hit in the head with a golf ball, and lost some of my hearing, because the trees between Braemar Nos. 5 and 15, planted for the sake of "safety," kept me invisible to the woman who hit the ball that hit me. She never yelled "Fore!" because she had no idea I was there. She had no idea I was there because she couldn't see me.
Trees DO NOT ensure safety. In some cases, they do not even promote it.
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I've been told that they remain standing because members don't want to be able to see the neighborhood beyond the property line...
As for trees and safety ... I've said it 100 times before, and I'll say it a 101st: I got hit in the head with a golf ball, and lost some of my hearing, because the trees between Braemar Nos. 5 and 15, planted for the sake of "safety," kept me invisible to the woman who hit the ball that hit me. She never yelled "Fore!" because she had no idea I was there. She had no idea I was there because she couldn't see me.
Trees DO NOT ensure safety. In some cases, they do not even promote it.
Thanks, Dan. Trees and safety seem to go hand-in-hand with each other when discussing tree management programs, at T&C and elsewhere, and as you share above it is often done so erroneously.
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By the way, Pat, don't you think the title of this thread ought to be changed to "...Saint Paul, MN, USA (1893)"?
Since no one else saw fit to document the origins of the golf course, we probably ought to go along with William Peet's recollections.
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By the way, Pat, don't you think the title of this thread ought to be changed to "...Saint Paul, MN, USA (1893)"?
Since no one else saw fit to document the origins of the golf course, we probably ought to go along with William Peet's recollections.
I agree that golf was first played at Town & Country in 1893, however since the Club was founded in 1888 that was the year I used in the subject title.
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Like the aerial photos.
Fun to see that 3rd green bunker morph over time from an almost perfect circle, to a circle with a few breaks, and then to larger breaks, to no circle at all now.
Some of those old bunkers were really quite large compared to the 2012 aerial.
I get a kick out of that big round bunker in the NE corner of the property that looked to be quite a ways away from the line of play on those two holes.
Approximately what % of the bunkers were reshaped in the last few years?
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The tree management work continues at Town & Country this fall. I managed to take a quick picture yesterday from the 10th tee (before our first snow) which shows the recent clearing of a few trees. Their removal opens up the tee shot nicely while presenting the existing specimen "V" tree more prominently.
Before
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/10thteebefore_zps9172a2e5.jpg)
After
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/10thteeafter_zps575955b6.jpg)
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Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.
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Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.
Pat - will it change the way the hole plays? I do not remember that short tree really being a factor. It definitely looks better.
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Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.
Pat - will it change the way the hole plays? I do not remember that short tree really being a factor. It definitely looks better.
The short tree wasn't a factor, unless you were a short-hitting elder (or a kid), or you hit worm-burner hooks.
The big tree on the left could've been a factor, I think, if you planned to fade one off the tee and pulled it a bit.
I like seeing that goofy V tree. No sense hiding it!
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Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.
Pat - will it change the way the hole plays? I do not remember that short tree really being a factor. It definitely looks better.
Jason - I don't think any of the removals will impact play, but the improvement comes from the improved visuals off the tee. The fairway looks wider and now the "V" tree is much more visible.
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This past week Google updated its satellite images for St. Paul and an image taken T&C of in October 2014 is shown below on the left. On the right is an image from 2010. Within that four year period, the bunkers were renovated and a modest number of trees were removed, primarily around the greens.
(http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/PatCCraig/2010vs2014_zpsa6165d3c.png)
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I thought there was a bunker in front of number 3!
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I just wanted to "bump" this thread in order to congratulate Town & Country's Superintendent, Bill Larson, on being named Golfdom's "Businessperson of the Year."
Full Article:
http://digital.golfdom.com/feb2015
Bill is Town & Country Club's greatest asset and it is wonderful to see him receive some well deserved praise!
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Another bump to keep this up at the top. Bill's a giant as far as Minnesota/Midwest superintendents go. We're lucky at T&C to have him and he, and his crew, deserve all the recognition they get. Congrats, Bill!
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(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1424358372373/golfdom/Golfdom1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1424358375573/golfdom/Golfdom2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1424358378442/golfdom/Golfdom3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1424358381400/golfdom/Golfdom4.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1424358383745/golfdom/Golfdom5.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1424358385832/golfdom/Golfdom6.jpg)
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Thanks for the link, Pat. Great piece on an outstanding man.
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Thanks for the link, Pat. Great piece on an outstanding man.
And with a fine dog, too!
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Best quote: "Bill is a hard worker. He's a St. Paul guy at a St. Paul club."
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I thought I would share a few photos of some of the changes that have been made to Town & Country this past fall.
Jeff Mingay was at the course last week reshaping the back of the 17th green. A cart path is being redirected to go behind the green (as compared to far short right of the green), and Jeff and our superintendent Bill thought it would be a good opportunity to reshape the whole area. In the process non-original mounding (some added ~7 years ago, some added ~30 years ago) behind the green was reshaped, lowered, or removed completely.
Here is a panorama view of the green last week pre-shaping:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446054542306/fall-work-tcc-2015/17%20Green%20Before.jpg)
And a panorama photo taken post-shaping:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446054540357/fall-work-tcc-2015/17%20Green%20After.jpg)
As you might notice, the 17th green sits high on a plateau above the Mississippi River. The removal of the mounding behind the hole gives the player a greater sense of his surroundings and allows for a very long view southwest over the river into Minneapolis.
After the removal of a few trees immediately to the west of the putting surface, the player now gets to enjoy this terrific view:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446054485776/fall-work-tcc-2015/17%20Green%20Looking%20West.jpg)
Here is a few pictures showing the evolution of the approach to the par-5 17th, with a picture from the 1920's, 2009, and just last week:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446055043131/fall-work-tcc-2015/17%20Historical.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446055040878/fall-work-tcc-2015/17%202009.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446054480539/fall-work-tcc-2015/17%20Fairway%20View.jpg)
Jeff also shaped a new tee for the par-3 18th behind the 17th green, which sits much higher than the existing tee boxes and offers a more dramatic shot of approximately 110-120 yards to the center of the green:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446054490990/fall-work-tcc-2015/18%20new%20tee.jpg)
Also exciting is the putting surface reclamation at the par-3 3rd. Our superintendent used the plugs from last fall's aerification to build a nursery green, which he then took to reclaim the lost putting surface. (The same process which Oakmont used to reclaim their lost putting surface).
Here is the "before" of the 3rd green:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446054820780/fall-work-tcc-2015/3%20green.jpg)
And the "after" illustrating the reclaimed putting surface:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig2125/_/rsrc/1446054471526/fall-work-tcc-2015/3%20Green%20Expansion.jpg)
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Pat --
I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.
Nice change on 3. Now, as for the green screen....
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Thanks, Dan.
I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.
Correct, as far as I know it will be used as an additional tee box. Not a fan?
Nice change on 3. Now, as for the green screen....
Thanks. I am in 1000% agreement on the green screen!
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Thanks, Dan.
I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.
Correct, as far as I know it will be used as an additional tee box. Not a fan?
I'm neither a fan nor a non-fan -- particularly in that I've never played it (though I have played many holes more or less like it, I suspect).
I'm sure it will be fine, once in a while.
What I am is: I am a fan of the hole that is there now, and think that a 110-120 yard drop shot is a hole *dramatically* different from the ca. 150-yard shot now required.
I think the Pucker Factor drops considerably from what's there now, if one is hitting a wedge rather than the considerably more club now required. I like the Pucker Factor, perhaps particularly on the home hole.
I also wonder if that shorter option will add to the "need" to keep that arborvitae (?) screen between 18 green and 1 tee. I would LOVE to see that greenery gone, so that players on 1 tee could watch the play on 18 (as, at Midland Hills, after removal of similar blocking vegetation, we can watch the play on 3 green from 4 tee and the play on 4 green from 7 tee.
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Good call on removing that mound behind 17. I had no idea the Mississippi was even visible from the course...a lot of time private clubs like to make it hit views from the outside, but that also hides views from the inside!
I remember playing Lincoln Park in SF back in the 90s with a friend who had moved there. On the 7th (I think it was, the one where you cross that monument to get from the previous green to the tee) there were a bunch of ugly bushes along the right edge of the hole. Not really in play, and neither of us had hit over there but my friend made a point to go over there, and told me to squeeze my way into the bushes to see what was on the other side. Only probably the best view of Golden Gate in the whole freakin' city! Talk about missed opportunities.
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Am I wrong or does the mounding removal also give you a great view of a parking lot and an apartment complex? Looks like a mixed blessing at best from the photos.
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Am I wrong or does the mounding removal also give you a great view of a parking lot and an apartment complex? Looks like a mixed blessing at best from the photos.
Ha - thanks, Terry.
To be fair, I took the photos this week in late October in Minnesota. I'm guessing the view will be significantly better when there are leaves on the trees and a blue sky.
You're not wrong about the parking lot view. However, I think the "apartment complex" you're referring to is, unfortunately, our clubhouse. In the name of forward progress, the club tour down the original Cass Gilbert designed beauty of a clubhouse (picture is below) in the 1960's and built the current structure in what was then a modern style. It doesn't look like much from outside but it fits the membership's needs OK and has a nice bar.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412002103355/home/Orig%20Clubhouse.jpg)
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In the name of forward progress, the club tour down the original Cass Gilbert designed beauty of a clubhouse (picture is below) in the 1960's and built the current structure in what was then a modern style.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412002103355/home/Orig%20Clubhouse.jpg)
So much for progress -- forward or otherwise.
I wonder how much thought was given to the possibility of saving some of Mr. Gilbert's work, via a renovation.
Pat (or anyone) --
Did that porch face the golf course or the river (or both)?
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In the name of forward progress, the club tour down the original Cass Gilbert designed beauty of a clubhouse (picture is below) in the 1960's and built the current structure in what was then a modern style.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraig/_/rsrc/1412002103355/home/Orig%20Clubhouse.jpg)
So much for progress -- forward or otherwise.
I wonder how much thought was given to the possibility of saving some of Mr. Gilbert's work, via a renovation.
Pat (or anyone) --
Did that porch face the golf course or the river (or both)?
Dan,
Unfortunately I don't think any thought was given to saving any of Cass Gilbert's work. Much like the classic golf courses we love, the 1950's and 1960's wasn't a time when members cared much for architectural heritage. In the archives and club history, there is a fair amount of information on the old and new clubhouse. The old one had a main clubhouse, which based on the photos I've seen of the interior looked and felt like an old mansion on Summit Ave (wood work, big fireplaces, etc.). The porch wrapped around the entire clubhouse and there was a separate locker room building as well as a tennis building to the north.
Supposedly, in the 1950's and facing the threat of suburban flight, the Club made an effort to morph from an "old-boys club" to a "family" club by building a new "state of the art" clubhouse with a big pool off the back. While the pool and tennis has since been reconstructed and moved to the north side of the property, the clubhouse from the 1950's/1960's remains.
Of course, I wish they hadn't torn the original clubhouse down. And while I don't think the current clubhouse is all that attractive from the outside (and the only view of the river/skyline is from the banquet room), it serves everyone fine. The bar is usually packed, there is a lively "card" room, and the locker room has some cool old wire lockers and showers with solid pressure.
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That's a real shame about tearing down the old clubhouse, but better to replace the clubhouse with an inferior one as opposed to replacing a bunch of holes with inferior ones.
When I arrived there I immediately knew it was built during the 50s or 60s - it just has that look. Inside too...it is clean and well maintained, but definitely looks dated.
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Pat,
No offense intended. It was a quick look. The rest of the photos are a more positive "reflection" of your great club.
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I think the work done at T&C over the past several years has been very good. All of the changes seem to make really good sense.
The progress is probably slower than Pat and Neil would like, but the car is moving in the right direction.
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Thanks, Dan.
I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.
Correct, as far as I know it will be used as an additional tee box. Not a fan?
Nice change on 3. Now, as for the green screen....
Thanks. I am in 1000% agreement on the green screen!
I'm of two minds on the new tee on 18. On one hand I really like the current hole. It's a shortish iron into a fairly steep back to front green. The way the hole currently sits, it's more of a par/bogey hole. But with a new tee that looks down to the green and plays at more of a wedge distance could be pretty fun. Especially in a match play setting, which the course is already well suited for.
I can imagine a match coming to 18 with a player 1 down, if he has the honor he could choose to play the short tee and go for birdie. As a wedge par 3 it may not be the most interesting hole hole in the world, but it certainly suits the fun nature of the course, in my opinion.
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I can imagine a match coming to 18 with a player 1 down, if he has the honor he could choose to play the short tee and go for birdie. As a wedge par 3 it may not be the most interesting hole hole in the world, but it certainly suits the fun nature of the course, in my opinion.
Joe --
I wasn't there to see it, but reports had you missing an ace on that hole by inches in the Midwest Mashie. That sounds like fun to me!
I'm not disagreeing with you or disliking the new tee (I never like or dislike something till I've played it), and perhaps Pat can tell me I'm wrong, but the current 18 at Town & Country rarely has felt like a "shortish" hole to me. It's usually into a headwind or a head-crosswind. Seems to me the least club I've ever hit there, in five or six playings, has been a 7-iron. (Of course, your near-ace was probably an 8 or 9.)
My guess: From the top tee, many more halves with par would result -- whereas from the current tee, par is always a very satisfying result, and very often a winning one.
But of course I'm just guessing. The proof will be in the putting!
Dan
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I can imagine a match coming to 18 with a player 1 down, if he has the honor he could choose to play the short tee and go for birdie. As a wedge par 3 it may not be the most interesting hole hole in the world, but it certainly suits the fun nature of the course, in my opinion.
But of course I'm just guessing. The proof will be in the putting!
Dan
I think I agree with everything you put out there Dan. Unfortunately, it was not me who almost made the ace. I came up short with a 7 there on my lone playing and it was into a good wind.
I agree with your comment that a short 18 might yield more par-par halves, but I like the idea of tempting a player into thinking he is better than he is. With a front pin and the typical headwind, I would bet a lot of wedges would end up in those front traps for the greedy golfer. From what I can see in the pictures, the new tee creates an option (that may not be more interesting/better) without disrupting an already good hole. Pat and the other members will have to tell us how it plays out.
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Unfortunately, it was not me who almost made the ace. I came up short with a 7 there on my lone playing and it was into a good wind.
Apologies to whoever it was, then!
Who almost aced 18 in the Mashie? Stand up and be applauded!
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Dan,
I believe it was me who almost had the ace on 18. I hit a 6 iron flush into a stiff head wind. It was pretty cool to have the gallery watching and applauding as I walked up to the green. I really enjoyed my first mashie and look forward to attending future events. Everyone involved did a wonderful job with planning and execution and i couldn't have asked for a better three days of competitive golf. Feel free to PM me if anyone is interested in playing Southview later this fall or early next year.
Joe Lynch
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Guys,
I just glanced over this thread .. the new tee at the 18th is a forward and/or optional tee. We had to get rid of some dirt, and opportunity to create that tee with said material was too obvious. There's a plan on the table to improve the existing tees, more or less in their current locations but shifting them slightly left, away from the adjacent 10th fairway. Hopefully this might happen next year. From those tees, the 18th will probably get a bit longer from the back markers.
The new tee is a brilliant tee (fun, with a beautiful view) for those golfers who play the forward markers at T&C.
And, yes: I've also advised the club that the big, obnoxious evergreen hedges behind the 3rd and 18th greens should be removed ;D
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Joe, Dan, Jeff Shelman, Jeff Mingay,
Thanks for posting your thoughts above. Sorry I haven't had time to check GCA since last week.
So far, in the roughly two weeks since Jeff's visit, I have heard nothing but great things regarding the work done around the 17th green and the new tee on 18. The new vistas from the 17th green are fairly dramatic in person (as compared to in my poor photos) and if anything most members want to take down an additional 7-10 trees further along the ridge so that a full view of downtown Minneapolis is (re)created.
Personally, I really like the new tee on #18. To me, it reminds me of the drop tee shot on the par-3 12th at Shoreacres. It's not a difficult shot, just a half-wedge or full wedge for most, but it's pretty fun and while a good swing gives you a chance at a birdie, a poor swing can result in a bogey.
From the existing tees, 18 is hardly my favorite hole on the course by any means. The tee shot is fairly claustrophobic, and the shot itself is fairly straightforward. The evergreen screen behind the hole is horrible and needs to be removed...currently it sits just a few feet off the back of the putting surface and it creates a goofy hazard behind the green. So while the hole is fun to play in match play as it's a par-3 where a lot could and does happen, I think the hole could be less penal and could use a dash of some "fun" (as in the new high tee box) with some minor tweaks.
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Got (and eagerly accepted) a fine opportunity to end (?) my season yesterday, at Town & Country (where, at the 3rd tee, I ran into Messrs. Craig and Davis, who were playing 9).
Just a couple of notes:
1. Having never played T&C late in the year, I had no idea that only a few unnecessary trees stand in the way of getting GREAT views of downtown Minneapolis throughout the year from the 2nd tee and the 2nd green -- even better views than are available on No. 9.
2. I like the new tee on No. 18 -- particularly if it used as an alternate tee along with the current tee. The new tee is not so high up as I had thought. It's still a drop-shot 3, but not a Bud Chapmanesque cliff shot.
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Got (and eagerly accepted) a fine opportunity to end (?) my season yesterday, at Town & Country (where, at the 3rd tee, I ran into Messrs. Craig and Davis, who were playing 9).
Just a couple of notes:
1. Having never played T&C late in the year, I had no idea that only a few unnecessary trees stand in the way of getting GREAT views of downtown Minneapolis throughout the year from the 2nd tee and the 2nd green -- even better views than are available on No. 9.
2. I like the new tee on No. 18 -- particularly if it used as an alternate tee along with the current tee. The new tee is not so high up as I had thought. It's still a drop-shot 3, but not a Bud Chapmanesque cliff shot.
Dan,
Nice running into you yesterday out at T&C. Sorry we never had a good chance to chat. Hopefully you enjoyed your round and the course. The course closed after yesterday for the season, and overall it's been a nice long golf season here in Minnesota and at T&C.
I've hit a shot off of the dirt tee on #18 a couple of times now this fall, and I think it's a fun shot. It's certainly more scenic than the existing tee and even though it's only a 110-120 yard shot, it's a difficult one to judge given there isn't really anywhere to miss where you don't leave yourself a tough up and down. As Jeff described above, I hope he gets the chance to rebuild the rest of the tees on #18 next year (as well as restore/renovate the green and it's surrounds).
I've heard nothing but positive things regarding Jeff's recent work on #17/#18 and I'm told the membership really likes it.
I agree, a little tree removal on #2 would go a long way to opening up some terrific views looking west toward Minneapolis. This time of year, when all of the leaves have fallen off the trees, you can really see the long vistas and better internal views of the course that would be possible with significant tree removal.
While not necessarily on the same level of scenic views, the view west from the top plateau of T&C's golf course reminds me of the view of Lake Superior from Northland CC. Much like how the view from Northland CC of the lake had been slowly covered up over the years by tree planting and growth, the dramatic view from T&C looking west over Minneapolis has slowly and largely been lost other than from the top of #9. I may be dreaming, but much like recent tree removals at Northland, I think it would be a wonderful improvement to clear as many trees as possible below said plateau to open up the view west. If the trees were cleared on the west side of #17, for example, it would really give a great sense of place and a sense that you are playing on a very dramatic river bluff high above the Mississippi with a backdrop of downtown Minneapolis.
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I agree with your tree removal suggestions, Pat. There are currently a number of wonderful vistas at T&C -- just like at Northland a decade ago -- but many more available. There are spots on the course where you don't realize where you are: overlooking the Mississippi River and downtown Minneapolis. Those available vistas should be uncovered where at all possible.
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I agree with your tree removal suggestions, Pat. There are currently a number of wonderful vistas at T&C -- just like at Northland a decade ago -- but many more available. There are spots on the course where you don't realize where you are: overlooking the Mississippi River and downtown Minneapolis. Those available vistas should be uncovered where at all possible.
Thanks, Rick. Of course, you managed to get to exactly what I was trying to say in far less words!
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I took an evening walk around the golf course last night and snapped a couple of photos on my phone of some of the things going on at T&C, for those that might be interested.
The grounds crew has completed a few "projects" which have brought a bit more of the classic charm back to our old golf course.
The bunkers, which were completed in 2013/14, are being overseeded with some fescue grasses to give them a bit more of the rugged/natural look. Here is just one example from #17:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1464801031687/photos/IMG_20160531_190735.jpg)
A couple of the fairway approaches were restored on the course. The fairway approach on #10 was brought all the way out to the ridge line and looks great, and the approach to #8 was widened significantly to the left.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1464801042675/photos/IMG_20160531_193418.jpg)
This was the "before" shot from the same angle in Fall 2014:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1464802112342/2/8%20left%20approach.jpg)
The significant restoration of the putting surface on the par-3 3rd is coming in great:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1464801051362/photos/IMG_20160531_193817.jpg)
There has also been a considerable effort made to establish more "natural" and/or "no-mow" areas around the course. These areas are scattered throughout the property, and I like them a lot as it makes the course look less manicured and gives it texture. Here is one example of an area in front of the 9th tee box:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1464801046664/photos/IMG_20160531_193559.jpg)
Here is another example from the 15th tee. This view has also been benefited from some tree removal from last winter.
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1464801038314/photos/IMG_20160531_192108.jpg)
Here is the same view from 2014 off #15 tee as a comparison:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1464802117002/2/15%20tee.jpg)
Hopefully I'll have some very good news to share out of T&C regarding the golf course in the near future.
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The work looks very nice, Pat. There's also something about evening light that makes golf course photography even better.
I'm looking forward to my next playing of T&C this year. I recently played Minneapolis GC and found the property to be similar to that of T&C. There's more quirk at T&C than at MGC, but I thought both courses had a similar feel and style.
It will be interesting to hear/see what may be coming for the course.
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The work looks very nice, Pat. There's also something about evening light that makes golf course photography even better.
I'm looking forward to my next playing of T&C this year. I recently played Minneapolis GC and found the property to be similar to that of T&C. There's more quirk at T&C than at MGC, but I thought both courses had a similar feel and style.
It will be interesting to hear/see what may be coming for the course.
Thanks, Brian. It's interesting that you think T&C and MGC feel similar. It's been a few years since I've been there, but MGC to me always felt like a much "brawnier" course. For years many of the best players in town played out of MGC, and that is because the course was always fairly long, tree lined, well bunkered, etc. which made for a tough test. At least when I'm at MGC, I hit a lot of mid-iron + approaches and when I'm at T&C I hit a lot more wedges & short irons.
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I think the similarity is more in terms of the property and the look of the course. Certainly MGC is longer and features less quirk than T&C. But for whatever reason, I thought the courses "felt" similar.
I did not think MGC was particularly brawny, however. Maybe I was just bombing it off the tee that morning!
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This does look nice, Pat. It made me reminisce about many of the fun shots you're forced to play at T&C. Are any of the new natural areas meant to play as a hazard of some sort to toughen up the course? Or are they all out of the way for most shots and just cosmetic?
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This does look nice, Pat. It made me reminisce about many of the fun shots you're forced to play at T&C. Are any of the new natural areas meant to play as a hazard of some sort to toughen up the course? Or are they all out of the way for most shots and just cosmetic?
Thanks, Joe. The new natural areas are all pretty much 'out of play', as much as possible as they can be on a course that sits on only 95 acres. They aren't intended to toughen up the course as far as I know.
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Well, I wasn't sure if I needed to keep this quiet or not, but given that he's been tweeting from T&C all week I figured the cat is out of the bag.
T&C has commissioned GCA's own Jeff Mingay to complete a Master Plan for the golf course. Jeff has been at T&C the last few days playing, walking, and studying the course in preparation of the Master Plan process.
It's still very early in the overall process, but this is very exciting for the Club to have someone of Jeff's caliber working on our course!
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Thanks Pat, it was good to see you on Monday.
I had a great time this week at T&C hanging out with Bill Larson and his assistant, Erik Tolzmann ... a lot of cool things came out of our touring and studying of the course, and talking golf at T&C. Should be fun and productive moving forward.
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There is some great tree removal work going on out at Town & Country this fall!
The entire area between the 4th tee and 8th fairway is being cleared out of evergreen trees and tall brush.
Here is a view from the tee in 2011:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/tcctreeremoval2016/DSC00847.jpg?attredirects=0)
Here is the same view today, pre-evergreen removal:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1477340578333/tcctreeremoval2016/4%20tee%20before.jpg)
And the same view post-removal!:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1477340573349/tcctreeremoval2016/4%20tee%20after.jpg)
More to come!
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Huge improvement!
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More evergreen removals taking place today near the 11th tee!:
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1477421528904/tcctreeremoval2016/11%20Overhead.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/patccraigphotos/_/rsrc/1477421536022/tcctreeremoval2016/Behind%2011%20Tee.jpg)
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Pat...thanks for doing this tour...and Jason...thanks for the link from this thread http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65362.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65362.0.html).
The course looks...ahem...very interesting to say the least. I really like the mix of hills and plains...of course the plains are littered with trees. The hole I kept going back to was 10...very cool, but again the trees muck it up considerably. IMO, one of the best aspects of wild holes is being able to attempt the recovery (often foolishly) from a poor position. Why do course managers continually choose to remove recovery options? Additionally, I find that long narrow greens are prime candidates for "open" golf. That said...I wouldn't dream of cutting down the V tree...very nice.
Ciao
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I'm glad you enjoyed the tour.
At the time I took those pictures, in 2014, the course was very much a "work in progress." Years of well-intentioned but misguided green committees had wreaked havoc on the course, with the case in point being the evergreen screen steps behind the 18th green and rows of evergreens planted in places behind greens like at the 3rd. The bones have always been there though, and thankfully they were largely left untouched.
The course's conditioning and functionality has always been second-to-none in the twin cities. The property naturally drains extremely well allowing for consistent firm, fast, and healthy turf. However, it wasn't until more recently that the club and its membership began understanding and appreciating the uniqueness of the golf course.
It started slowly. For example, during the bunker renovation in 2013 the approach to the 1st green was reclaimed as short grass from the rough that was artificially planted years ago by a Green Chairman (with a fairway opening no more than 10 paces wide). The result was that even on a short, 330 yard par 4, many of the women golfers came to the superintendent praising the additional shortgrass which allowed them to now run a longer iron or wood shot onto the green vs. being caught in rough. That in turn allowed for eventual projects such as the restoration of the very wide run up (down?) to the 15th green.
The best example of prudent stewardship of the golf course was the effort by the Superintendent to bring Jeff Mingay on as consulting architect. His first visit was in response to a small, but vocal, contingent of members who wanted to bulldoze and flatten the hill on the 6th hole. Thankfully Mr. Mingay visited the club and advised those in power that they were greatly underestimating the cost of the project, and the likely result it that no matter how much dirt you moved you would never rid the hole of a blind second shot.
That eventually led to a Master Plan. I believe to date about 8 greens and their surrounds have been renovated/restored (1, 2, 3, 9, 11, 15, 17, 18). There is no doubt that the course in 2014 was heavily over planted. Since then I would guess upwards of 250 trees have been removed (~130 last winter) and quite a few are scheduled to come down this winter. Their removal has opened internal vistas into the ravine which are just breathtaking and has even some older tree-favoring members coming around. The results have been terrific in my opinion and the course should only get better over the next few years.
Overall, I think Town & Country's golf course is really special. It gives you a sense of place in which you never doubt where you are as it is so unique that it never reminds you of anyplace else. There are quite a few people who dismiss it as *too* quirky or odd, some people who hate it, and many people who just adore it. That's ok, T&C has and always will fit my eye and is the example of the type of course that I really enjoy. If you ever make it to the area I would recommend you check it out.
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Hi Sean,
More trees are coming down at T&C as we speak. Most of those trees that infer with golf and hide the beauty of the property will be gone by the time this golf season begins. With more open space, we're also planning to plant in appropriate places; mostly oak.
The "V Tree" is on its last leg. It's old and in declining health, and could become dangerous if something's not done sooner than later. The 10th hole will be better without it, frankly.
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Thanks Pat. It is clear T&C holds a special place in your heart.
Jeff...sure, if the V tree is a goner then it must go for firewood. In general though, I caution against cutting down cool trees even if they may not help the strategy of a hole unless the trees actually cause damage. I am no tree hugger, but I love trees.
Ciao
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Sean,
I think and feel the same. I'll always hesitate to recommend cutting down a cool tree. The "V Tree" at T&C is cool. But, it's at the end of its rope. And, again, I think the 10th hole - a tough one - will be better for it.
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Sean,
The "V" tree is a neat tree but as Jeff notes it doesn't have much longer...it's literally rotting through the middle and eventually the great weight of one of the two trunks will peel itself off.
The ideal line on the hole is to play left and away from the V tree, anyway. So it's possible to hit the tree, but its typically a very poor shot if you do.
The hole would be truly special if the V tree and about 5-6 trees short and right of the green are removed. That would allow the player the strategic choice to either hug the OB on the left and gain a flat lie and an ideal shot into the green, or to bail out right off the tee but have a hard lie with the ball above your feet with all the trouble left looming.
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Pat,
That's the plan on the latest draft of the Master Plan: Expect the "V Tree" to be gone soon. It doesn't need to be replaced. Remove/trim some trees on the right, as you mention, to open a line of play to the green from the right side. And, remove the declining Oak on the left side of the green.
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The following article from Golf Course Architecture details some of the recent work completed at T&C:
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/restoration-work-continues-at-town-country-club