Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve Salmen on August 29, 2014, 04:37:34 PM
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A friend of mine who has played the three courses several times, mentioned that he thought NGLA was a combination of TOC and North Berwick. Is this a fair statement?
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First thought...yes.
Second thought...there are holes copied from both courses.
Finally thought...I think it is even more dramatic than North Berwick.
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The word "dramatic" is well-suited to NGLA. There are a few holes that run more or less level from tee to green, but they are never without drama. When you add the rise and fall of the fairway tides to the mixture, the drama rises with.
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Steve,
A MUCH better question is how did YOU respond? :)
If your friend is simply a serious golfer and not a gca geek, that is a perfectly fine statement. Certainly a sufficient jumping off point for you to tell him the full story. With that type of setup, it wouldn't take me long to bring about That type "the blank stare."
What did you say to him?
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Bill,
That's a good question.
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I would agree but also disagree...
TOC -> NBW -> NGLA feels like a bit of an evolution to me. Each are unique, but the main impression from each is not the same for me.
TOC has great but obfuscated strategy tee to green and many options around the green. The shared corridors allow for so many angles as well as recovery opportunities, but the undulations of the greens and their surrounds make recovering correctly difficult.
NBW has more clearly defined routes from tee to green, but still plenty of strategy/trouble. The greens have great contours and the course, like TOC, uses what the land gave it both naturally and from the surrounding town/roads/walls. NBW uses the coastline to create dramatic shots and vistas too, which I would have to say is pretty darn important in creating memorability and exciting golf.
NGLA builds on NBW in that each shot/hole is well thought out strategically and from the perspective of presenting the player with an enticing and exciting view/shot. The greens often melt into the surrounds which allows them to look as natural as TOC but they incorporate phenomenal internal contours that are interesting and fun.
*I've played each course 1 time.
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Alex that is a very good thought, it's almost an evolution process??
Have six rounds at each and I like your comments.
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To me, the first three holes are basically Prestwick USA and that is a compliment.
The Redan is a huge breath of fresh air because you're not penalized for missing short, as I have seen with every other Redan. You can actually run the ball on. The Redans I've played the most, severely punish the shot missed to the short, right side of the green.
More thoughts later.
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Isn't a Redan supposed to be punishing? The name comes from a nearly impenetrable fortress. The hole at NBW is named after a fortress in the Crimean war that was captured only after the loss of 80,000 French and 20,000 British lives.
The Redan at Toronto GC (H.S. Colt) punishes a ball short left but if you could hit a running hook (for a rightie) that would run onto the green from short right, and perhaps over.
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Wayne,
I have not played Toronto GC but every Redan that I know of is extremely punishing if you miss short and left. Your will either be in a bunker with a steep face or have a difficult uphill pitch, likely with not much green to work with.
I can't think of one Redan that I really like, however, the original at NB allows the player a relatively good opportunity to make a par if you miss long and left. There is plenty of room to play to play an uphill shot from very short grass.
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I have just returned to my hotel after having FINALLY played the Redan at North Berwick. I hit a solid 160 shot that landed near perfectly, one foot on the front right corner of the green and rolled 30 feet below the pin. My buddy landed in almost the same spot, but his iron seemed too low.What an amazing golf hole. It was so cool not knowing who's ball was still on the green. The uphill nature of the shot is so much more of a factor than any other redan I have played in the States.
While my group walked to the 16th tee, I stayed behind and simply stared at the green from behind. I was shocked at how closely National's Redan seems to mirror NB's. The downhill slope of both greens are amazingly similar.
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I have just returned to my hotel after having FINALLY played the Redan at North Berwick. I hit a solid 160 shot that landed near perfectly, one foot on the front right corner of the green and rolled 30 feet below the pin. My buddy landed in almost the same spot, but his iron seemed too low.What an amazing golf hole. It was so cool not knowing who's ball was still on the green. The uphill nature of the shot is so much more of a factor than any other redan I have played in the States.
While my group walked to the 16th tee, I stayed behind and simply stared at the green from behind. I was shocked at how closely National's Redan seems to mirror NB's. The downhill slope of both greens are amazingly similar.
The second time I played the Redan it was with my wife and another couple in 2005. I hit a six iron like your shot. My little wife hit a three wood that somehow threaded its way through the bunkers onto the green. When we crested the hill there were two balls about 15' away. What a great hole!
Oh yes, the only birdie was by my friend whose shot ran through the green. He chipped in!
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Bill,
Have you played Piping Rock's Redan ?
It's one of the few that play uphill.
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Bill,
Have you played Piping Rock's Redan ?
It's one of the few that play uphill.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3861/15095317785_4f2e1a5398_c.jpg)
One of the all time great Redans (I've never played NGLA).
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The Redan at Camargo also plays uphill, but not nearly to the extent shown there at Piping Rock
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Bill,
Have you played Piping Rock's Redan ?
It's one of the few that play uphill.
I have not, but I think a real Redan must play slightly uphill so the shot is essentially blind. I am not a big fan of the Redans at The Creek and Mountain Lake because it's all there in front of you. Give me the blind or semi blind shots at NGLA and North Berwick.
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Bill,
Have you played Piping Rock's Redan ?
It's one of the few that play uphill.
I have not, but I think a real Redan must play slightly uphill so the shot is essentially blind. I am not a big fan of the Redans at The Creek and Mountain Lake because it's all there in front of you. Give me the blind or semi blind shots at NGLA and North Berwick.
Bill:
How about the Old White at Greenbrier? It's slightly uphil (at least enough so that you can't see the putting surface from the tee).
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/15101467292_3867351b97_c.jpg)
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Well that's really good because I've never played NGLA...but have played the others numerous times. Both in my Top 5. I don't feel now that I don't know what I'm missing...as much.
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Jon,
I liked the Redan at Old White, I just wish they'd get rid of the chocolate drops fronting the bunker
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Jon,
I liked the Redan at Old White, I just wish they'd get rid of the chocolate drops fronting the bunker
Pat:
It's a strange feature for sure. One interesting aspect of those drops is that they really seem to play tricks with your perception the size and distance of the hole. Those things are huge, and they seem, at least to me, to make everything else about the hole look smaller.
Very odd feature.
Jon
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These look interesting holes.
Does anyone have photos they are able to post of the Piping Rock and Old White Redans' as viewed from over the back on either/both sides?
atb
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The uphill nature of the shot is so much more of a factor than any other redan I have played in the States.
It is barely uphill ... only 5 feet or so by my best estimation. [I spent an hour once trying to check all the relative elevations of the green, approach, surrounds and tee.] It feels more uphill than it is, because you can't see much of the green surface ... once it is at eye level and running away from you, it's blind.
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Oh yes, the only birdie was by my friend whose shot ran through the green. He chipped in!
Brings back a painful memory of my first round at North Berwick... I was playing with a friend who wanted to go to Scotland but bitched about almost everything for two weeks. NB was our last round.
I was primed for the redan, hit as good a shot as I had in me. It landed short as I planned and rolled up to 20 feet from where I made easy par.
My friend hit the wrong shot ended up in the front bunker, and he's a marginal sand player. While whining about his "luck" climbed down there, laid his lob wedge wide open, took a full swing and hit a shot that barely cleared the lip, rolled up and dropped in for deuce.
Of course the elation of the moment was short lived, because on the next hole he and his wife were on the wrong side of the gully and promptly started bitching about what a dumb green it was.
K
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These look interesting holes.
Does anyone have photos they are able to post of the Piping Rock and Old White Redans' as viewed from over the back on either/both sides?
atb
Thomas:
Here's the best view I have in my archives of the Redan at Piping Rock - it's taken from the left rear of the green back toward the tee boxes:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5594/15107998962_fd80bf21e9_c.jpg)
Here's the best I have of Greenbrier's - these are taken from the right side up the green. If nothing else, they give a good idea of the depth of that front bunker, the size of the drops, and the scale of the raised portion:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3904/14921667599_87afb50ea9_c.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3853/14921718650_9c67933127_c.jpg)
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Jon,
Those mounds at Old White are so out of context.
I wonder if they're debris mounds or decorative mounds.
I'd be interested to know their origins
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Jon,
Those mounds at Old White are so out of context.
I wonder if they're debris mounds or decorative mounds.
I'd be interested to know their origins
Pat,
I asked Lester George about these, but cannot find the thread where he addressed my question. If I find it, I will post it here.
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Jon,
Those mounds at Old White are so out of context.
I wonder if they're debris mounds or decorative mounds.
I'd be interested to know their origins
Pat:
If I recall correctly, they're called dragon's teeth and were recreated by Lester George when he restored the golf course. I cannot recall if the teeth were part of the original course as laid out by Raynor (I remember hearing that they were used to hide fill on the original course) or if George just added them as new on his own.
Jon
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Jon,
Those mounds at Old White are so out of context.
I wonder if they're debris mounds or decorative mounds.
I'd be interested to know their origins
Pat:
If I recall correctly, they're called dragon's teeth and were recreated by Lester George when he restored the golf course. I cannot recall if the teeth were part of the original course as laid out by Raynor (I remember hearing that they were used to hide fill on the original course) or if George just added them as new on his own.
Jon
Pat:
I just noticed that Ran talked about the mounds in his profile of Old White. Here's what he says about the fifth hole, where the mounds also exist:
"Fifth hole, 345 yards, Mounds; Referred to locally as Dragon Teeth, several holes at The Old White possess sharp conical mounds, which are unique as Macdonald never employed them elsewhere. The reason? As Raynor was building the course, he needed a place to pile rock as they weren’t going to cart it very far. At several places, they piled the rubble together and then grassed it over. No where do the mounds come more into play here."
Still doesn't answer the question as to the mounds on the Redan, but they're the exact same mounds as you see on the fifth.
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Jon,
It's an interesting, if not strange, place to locate debris mounds
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While the Piping Rock redan is uphill it is still backed by a slope and higher level of golf course behind it.
The NB redan has no horizon and thus feels comparably uphil and just as mysterious if not more so. Both great golf holes
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I don't get his perception.
NGLA is an entirely different kind of property and not as completely quirky as NB ( not counting the windmill) as for one thing there are no stone walls that come into play; no double greens; the redan is different; etc
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Ward,
The large Berms on # 8 & # 11 serve as high walls, with the ones on # 11 coming into play on the drive and approach
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I think the mounds look great...debris function or not. My eyes were lead to them immediately. Good call Lester!
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Thanks Pat you are right; not the same material so my memory didn't read them alike but functionally similar.
I still have trouble comparing Berwick's single point of large elevation change at the what? 4,5 13,14,15 location to the many muscular topographies at NGLA
Of course I was referring to TOC double greens
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I think the mounds look great...debris function or not. My eyes were lead to them immediately. Good call Lester!
Not to hijack the discussion, but in case anyone is interested, here are a couple shots of the mounds on the 5th hole.
From the fairway:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5572/15112998005_89ea3f7276_c.jpg)
From behind the green:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3886/15112623802_b2529fcdd3_c.jpg)
For scale (that's me standing on top of the mound like an idiot):
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3867/14926433258_bbed3f9969_c.jpg)
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I think the mounds look great...debris function or not. My eyes were lead to them immediately. Good call Lester!
Paul,
They obscure the golfer's view of the fronting bunker.
Why do yo think they look good and not out of place.
Would you like to see them introduced to other Redans ?
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Jon,
I think they look great on he 5th, but not the 8th (Redan)
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Jon,
I think they look great on he 5th, but not the 8th (Redan)
They certainly come into play more on the 5th - especially when the pin is over of the left side.
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The uphill nature of the shot is so much more of a factor than any other redan I have played in the States.
It is barely uphill ... only 5 feet or so by my best estimation. [I spent an hour once trying to check all the relative elevations of the green, approach, surrounds and tee.] It feels more uphill than it is, because you can't see much of the green surface ... once it is at eye level and running away from you, it's blind.
Yes, but that minimal elevation is enough to suggest that a lower, running shot may do the trick. On of the cool things about the more direct aerial approach is that if one catches the downslope its easy to kick thru the green and none of that can be seen from the tee.
There is another Redan at Cavendish that nobody talks about. It is severely uphill, but very much in keeping with the main principals of the original. I like the hole a lot, but I like uphill 3s.
Ciao
Ciao
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What do you guys think of the Northshore Redan? Looked real cool and a bit uphill in the pix I saw.
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These look interesting holes.
Does anyone have photos they are able to post of the Piping Rock and Old White Redans' as viewed from over the back on either/both sides?
atb
Thomas:
Here's the best view I have in my archives of the Redan at Piping Rock - it's taken from the left rear of the green back toward the tee boxes:
Thank you Jon. Now I understand the holes a bit more.
atb
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What do you guys think of the Northshore Redan? Looked real cool and a bit uphill in the pix I saw.
This is the redan from North Shore.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5582/14930996558_7cd5f62c2e_c.jpg)
You're right - it is slightly uphill (or at least level to the point where you cannot see the entire putting surface from the tee). I liked it, and I liked the course as a whole.