Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Chris DeToro on August 29, 2014, 08:59:28 AM
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As I head out to TPC Boston for the Deutsche Bank, a course which has seen a complete renovation and is barely recognizable from its origin from what I understand (and correct me if I'm mistaken), it made me wonder what other courses have seen such drastic renovations.
Is this the best example?
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Not much time to elaborate now, but two locals come to mind - Medinah #1 and Butterfield CC
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Dismal River White
Coyote Creek- Formerly Riverside. Morgan Hill, Ca.
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Would ANGC qualify for this? Some changes historically good, others.....
Ken
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Really, not all that uncommon to totally blow out an existing course with a new, or partially new routing on the same site. I would guess there are literally thousands out there, from an old course like Northland in Duluth having moved halfway up the hill by Ross, to Faz totally redoing the old Desert Inn course in Vegas to many others.
Not really familiar with all the changes made to Boston TPC, so don't know where that fits on the "total blowout" scale.
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I'm not sure about ANGC--those changes were more about modernization as a major championship venue. I think the issues at Medinah #1 and TPC Boston were more structural in nature
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Pinehurst #2
Doral Blue Monster
Medinah #1 for sure
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TPC Boston isn't what I would call a "drastic" renovation. The routing is the same. Many of the holes pretty much play the same way. A few holes (like the 4th and 17th) were changed more significantly for the better. But the change was primarily cosmetic and consisted of a series of smaller tweaks.
Haven't been, but it sounds like Medinah #1 was far more drastic.
Olympic Hills here in Minnesota (in Eden Prairie) would qualify as Ron Prichard is completely rebuilding and redesigning a 1960's era course, to open next year.
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Oh ok, I thought the changes were much more drastic at TPC so much so that they basically just say Gil Hanse designed it
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Gil Hanse did a nice job sprucing the place up to be a little more strategic and to look more like a New England course. But to say that he "basically designed it" would be an overstatement, in my opinion, after playing it a bunch pre and post renovations.
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Pat,
As someone who is lucky enough to play it pre and post renovation I am interested in hearing what exactly Gil did. The praise for his work seems almost universal; I haven't heard a single person say they enjoyed the original version better, or that the changes were unnecessary. I can readily understand how Gil made the course look like it belonged in New England and not Florida, but my guess is that the changes have to go deeper than just the visual aspect. For instance were any green shapes changed or recontoured? On how many holes has the strategy changed significantly?
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Pat,
As someone who is lucky enough to play it pre and post renovation I am interested in hearing what exactly Gil did. The praise for his work seems almost universal; I haven't heard a single person say they enjoyed the original version better, or that the changes were unnecessary. I can readily understand how Gil made the course look like it belonged in New England and not Florida, but my guess is that the changes have to go deeper than just the visual aspect. For instance were any green shapes changed or recontoured? On how many holes has the strategy changed significantly?
Pete,
I'm getting ready to head out of town for the holiday weekend, so I don't have time to do a full run down. I would agree that Gil Hanse made the course better through his work. Greens were tweaked, bunkers moved and reshaped, mowing lines changed, etc. My only point is that the bones of the course are still there from the Palmer design, and that many of the holes play effectively the same (and the routing is unchanged). So, to call it a Gil Hanse design would be a stretch, in my opinion. Renovation? Sure.
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Here's an aerial of the back nine (plus #9) from 2004, pre-renovation.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/847x635q90/742/zKEXFc.jpg)
And from 2013, with the Hanse renovations. Obviously the holes are generally the same, but bunkering drastically changed, and a few other things (fairway lines on 17 and 18 are notable).
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/847x635q90/673/SfPwII.jpg)
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It's not shown in those aerials, but the most drastic change was probably #4. Previously an almost 90 degree dogleg right, two-shot par 4. Now a potentially drivable par 4. If you look at a current aerial, the tree clearing gives an idea of where the green used to be.
#7 stayed in the same corridor, but the Sahara-like bunker was Gil's addition and really makes that a different hole, as well.
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Pat, looking forward to hearing more about the changes as I have no experience with the course pre-renovation and have only toured it twice post renovation. It does look like the course belongs in New England, but some of the elements still look Florida-ish
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Gil previously did a complete renovation to Soule Park. This was a so so Bell Jr. that has been built into a wonderful highly strategic course.
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Erin Hills? Was it drastic or desparate?
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medinah #1 wasn't a renovation, dudes.
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Cal Club? 13 original holes and 5 holes by Kyle Phillips. Thousands of trees eliminated.
It completely changed the club from off the radar to arguably the premier club in the Bay Area and one of the best in the state.
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Doak's reinvention of Lowry/Mira Vista into Commonground would certainly seem to fit the bill. I guess a handful of hole corridors stayed the same, but that's about all the didn't change there.
Also the recent renovation of Camelback's Indian Bend course to what's now known as the Ambiente.
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I have played here three times - once per year over the last three years. One thing about this course is that there is a lot of acreage used and you often cannot see another hole from the one that you are playing on. And there are no homes alongside the fairways. This is quite unlike most courses that I play in Toronto where many of the older clubs are somewhat cramped compared to TPC-Boston. But this does lead to some long walks between the holes.
In terms of drastic renovations, wasn't this the case with lots of British courses after WW II. Wasn't Turnberry used as an RAF base? I imagine the course post-war was drastically different to what you saw before.
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This was discussed once before. Some interesting comments from the past.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39528.0.html
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Erin Hills? Was it drastic or desparate?
Well, it was ordered. ;D (by the chief blue coat and tinkerer of USGA Open courses....)
I wouldn't say drastic -- the basic routing (well, 90 percent of it) is the same, and most holes play similarly to what was originally envisioned, I think. If one was beholden to the original Dell hole (I was not), you might regard it as drastic -- although I'd argue it improved the course.
But several of the changes are dramatic -- the 1st hole is pretty different without the tree and that odd, mostly blind second shot; the 2nd green is half-again as large (but still tiny, and still plays to its original intent, I'd argue); the 5th has a differently aligned fairway (to its detriment); the 7th is now longer, obviously, as it covers the former Dell terrain; the 8th no longer closes the front nine (but little changed), and the 9th, a terrific short par 3, now ends the front nine instead of serving as a bye hole (a good change, I'd argue). The back nine largely remains the same, save for the 10th, now a long par 4, with no Biarritz green (seen as goofy by some), and the denuded 17, with the esker long gone and thus changing the nature of a potential blind second shot. And there are a ton of new, largely penal, bunkers.
I don't know if I'd call it desperate -- these days, and going on for decades really, if you want to host the USGA's Open, you do as they say. The original owner of Erin Hills, and the course's successors, wanted to host that championship.
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medinah #1 wasn't a renovation, dudes.
Blake, I take it you did some work there?
You describe the work at #1 as a "remodel". What's the difference between a remodel and a renovation?
Doesn't a "remodel" ( as you describe it on your Linked In profile) infer a fairly drastic renovation as implied in the start of the thread. While certainly not a restoration, it appears as it may be more of a Doak course than anything else now.
Sounds fairly drastic to me and in the latest cover story of CDGA magazine ( and PGA magazine cited here last week) it says the same thing.
What's your take?
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Ian, first off, I was fairly intoxicated when I posted that, but I'll stand behind my drunken logic.
I've always been told a remodel is when the the course is blown up and the routing changes while a renovation, drastic or subtle, keeps the routing in tact. On #1 Tom and Brian rerouted ~6 of the holes. And the camel shapeshifted. That's the end all be all right there.
I can be swayed by a convincing argument, tho.
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Ian, first off, I was fairly intoxicated when I posted that, but I'll stand behind my drunken logic.
I've always been told a remodel is when the the course is blown up and the routing changes while a renovation, drastic or subtle, keeps the routing in tact. On #1 Tom and Brian rerouted ~6 of the holes. And the camel shapeshifted. That's the end all be all right there.
I can be swayed by a convincing argument, tho.
I see no need for convincing. We were simply replying to the OP. Chris was asking for courses that have been completely changed, and maybe he should have used "remodel" instead of "renovation". Regardless, I think Medinah #1 is exactly the type of project he was referring to.
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TPC Sawgrass
TPC Avenel now TPC Potomac at Avenel Farm
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Around Toronto:
The National was built over the original Pine Valley GC
Glen Abbey is built over another former course
Mandarin is over the old Windmills course
Scarboro was completely rebuilt over the original Cumming course – although 4th was left in place
Mississaugua has seen multiple iterations and 10 architects
Credit Valley has two halves of two holes from the original Thompson course
Rees Jones recent rebuild of Lambton
Likely missing quite few ... but there’s a long history of this occurring and that took 2 minutes to think of.
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All but 3 or 4 holes on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club were radically changed by Tom Weiskopf 15 or so years ago. Playing corridors were changed, holes were reversed, green sites were moved, etc.
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Sunningdale Old.
Woking
Bob
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All but 3 or 4 holes on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club were radically changed by Tom Weiskopf 15 or so years ago. Playing corridors were changed, holes were reversed, green sites were moved, etc.
I remember when the closing holes basically fell into the Pacific during the "El Nino" of 1998 where it rained 27 straight days in SF in Feb of that year. Love the Ocean Course, especially the back 9.
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Oak Hill East?
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It occurred to me after seeing Ian's post, that several of Dr. MacKenzie's best courses were actually renovations, and quite drastic ones at that.
Lahinch was a renovation, he only kept a few holes.
Royal Melbourne was a renovation -- nearly every hole was rerouted, although some of the previous green sites or fairway corrdiors were kept.
Kingston Heath was a renovation -- essentially a rebunkering.
Crystal Downs was a renovation -- there was an original nine-hole course, though he only used one green site from it.
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IMB CC into The Village Club of Sandspoint
Deepdale into The Village of Lake Success because of the LIE
I'm 90% sure Quaker Ridge was a John Duncan Dunn w less than 18 holes before Tillinghast
What about St Andrews in Yonkers?
Could one say Pinehurst #2 and Donald Ross did it to itself with the conversion from sand to grass greens?
... Doing a "Drastic renovation" seems to be the best/only way to build a new course these days in the US with the amount of places up for sale and the ease of zoning.
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Yes, I probably should've used the term remodel as opposed to renovation. I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer? That was sort of the influence for the post
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I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer?
It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler. If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much. Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.
By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.
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I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer?
It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler. If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much. Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.
By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.
I agree that Hanse gives them a marketing advantage, especially in this region of the country. Stylistically and fairly, to an extent, at what point are the changes such that more credit be due to the remodel/redesign?
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I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer?
It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler. If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much. Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.
By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.
I agree that Hanse gives them a marketing advantage, especially in this region of the country. Stylistically and fairly, to an extent, at what point are the changes such that more credit be due to the remodel/redesign?
I tell you what -
His star has really risen if Gil Hanse's name gives a bigger marketing advantage than Arnold Palmer's...
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A famous and interesting "drastic" renovation is by Robert Trent Jones at Eugene CC (1967). If I'm not mistaken, Jones reversed the course completely, placing the 1st tee where the 18th green was, the 1st green where the 18th tee was, and so on.
The original design was by Chandler Egan, a well known northwestern U.S. architect.
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There are more 'drastic' renovations than people appreciate. Most of the extant Ross courses in Georgia (Athens CC being an exception) are 'drastic' renovations. East Lake and Augusta CC, for example, are both complete redo's of older designs.
Bob
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I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer?
It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler. If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much. Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.
By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.
This is pretty common in the business now. We have had a few feelers lately about projects where I suspect the goal is not so much to redesign the course as "re-brand" it, doing just as much work as it would take for me to let them say it was mine. I am pretty wary of jobs like that, if they don't express what they dislike about the course and want to change.
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Interesting. Guess it shouldn't be that surprising, but I wouldn't like the idea of that type of job either for a number of reasons. Has anyone ever come to you and flat said that their intention was to re-brand the course?
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I would agree with Pat....TPC Boston was a renovation, not a complete re-design. But, semantics.
I walked it for several days watching the tourney pre-reno. I have played the Hanse version.
For a complete re-do, I think of Algonquin in New Brunswick. An old Ross 27 that he never visited that was blown up and re-routed and completely changed by Thomas McBroom.
I only played it once about 15 years ago, but I heard the new version is better than what was there pre-1998 or so. It was so new when I was there that you could still make out the old Ross hole corridors going different directions than most new holes.
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Finley Golf Course at UNC
The Floridian, now the Floridian National
Bayshore Golf in Miami Beach, now the Miami Beach Golf Club
All are totally new golf courses built on the site of older courses.