Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Lloyd_Cole on August 27, 2014, 07:53:38 PM
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I did search and search and found nothing... so after reading Ran's article on Erin Hills and wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay... I wonder what really good courses out there, without massive maintenance budgets (like Merion) allowing them to dump sand on top of the whole course, are on clay?
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Cuscowilla in Georgia, even has red sand in the bunkers. One of my favorite courses.
I suspect there are many more top level courses in America on Clay than sand, just because there aren't that many sand based regions in the US.
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wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay...
Lloyd,
Agreed that it is not an ideal base, but sometimes you simply do not have an option. Aside from a few small pockets here and there (in sparsely populated locations), virtually the entire southern portion of Manitoba is a heavy clay. My home course aerates and heavily top dresses fairways every year in order to build up a decent layer of sand on top of the clay to help facilitate drainage. Wholesale capping at time of construction is too costly.
TK
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Methinks you don't have to have a massive budget to dump sand on the entire course.
My modest club does it spring and fall, provided we have full membership, thereby giving sufficient funds. Was always done before the great recession. Since the great recession only sparingly, but membership is growing again.
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I don't think Erin Hills is on soil we would say is true clayey soil, even if the ag map calls it some version of a Wisconsin clayey-loam.
However, my home area of NE Wisconsin has a more greasy clay-loam called Kewuanee clay loam, and it is really tight clay! Yet, once turf is established, and aeration and sand amendments take hold, it needs less water and holds moisture for the plant uptake. There are many courses around here with modest maintenance budgets on clayey-loam parcels of land.
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Methinks you don't have to have a massive budget to dump sand on the entire course.
My modest club does it spring and fall, provided we have full membership, thereby giving sufficient funds. Was always done before the great recession. Since the great recession only sparingly, but membership is growing again.
Seems expensive to me. Verti draining fairways whilst slow is widely done in my local area, but none that I know of top dress. Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. Most wont put 100 tonne pa on greens.
One mans modest is another's extravagant, I suppose.
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I suppose the poster child for this category would be Old Works, as the environmental remediation for the copper smelter required capping the whole thing with heavy clay (don't remember the depth).
Also, Pete Dye Golf club to reclaim coal mining.
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... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...
Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.
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... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...
Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.
How many tonnes of sand roughly?
Tyler referred to aerate and backfill.
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I disagree with the idea that sand topdressing is only possible for high-end courses. I think it's all about priorities. The clientele at most lower budget places probably won't bitch about the lack of firm turf. They are more likely to gripe about slow greens, bad lies in bunkers, and rough that's too thick, so that's where those places choose spend their dollars. I work at a higher-end facility on CO Rocky Mountain clay, which drains quite poorly, and I believe our property doesn't do NEAR enough topdressing on fairways, tees, and approaches. Greens get an appropriate amount. My philosophy on great greenskeeping can be summarized by the 4 T's. Topdress, topdress, topdress and topdress.
Another issue is irrigation. A higher end facility has the manpower to do a lot of supplemental hand watering, while a lower budget facility might not. Therefore the higher end property can irrigate sparingly and hit the persistently dry areas with hoses, while a lower budget facility usually has to blast out enough water so that swaths of the course don't die. Of course this means that some areas will be gooey because uniform distribution of irrigation water is an impossibility.
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I did search and search and found nothing... so after reading Ran's article on Erin Hills and wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay... I wonder what really good courses out there, without massive maintenance budgets (like Merion) allowing them to dump sand on top of the whole course, are on clay?
Why try? Because most of the Midwest is clay and if you want to golf that's your option.
I know of three local clubs that top dress regularly with maintenance budgets under $350k.
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I did search and search and found nothing... so after reading Ran's article on Erin Hills and wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay... I wonder what really good courses out there, without massive maintenance budgets (like Merion) allowing them to dump sand on top of the whole course, are on clay?
Why try? Because most of the Midwest is clay and if you want to golf that's your option.
I know of three local clubs that top dress regularly with maintenance budgets under $350k.
£210,000 is very much high end course budget in the UK.
Clay plays plenty firm and fast in the summer. Not many, if any greats on Clay, but plenty of very nice courses for 9 months of the year.
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I seem to recall it been said on another thread that some of the heath courses around London are on clay. It should be pointed out that with decent drainage a lot of clay soils will drain fine. Ryan, I think the definition of low budget in the US is very different to in the UK. I could not afford to topdress my fairways and I know of very few clubs who an in the UK.
Jon
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Might add to the thought there aren't any greats, but just about anything in Tennessee or Kentucky would be on clay...
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The problem with topdressing on clay is once you start, you really have to continue or your creating a bigger problem. Topdressing in the Midwest 1x a year is much different than on bermudagrass courses or topdressing fairways every 3 weeks in the north. All depends on the quality of sand. Putting down a sand with a lot of "fines" isn't going to do much but lock up pore space and NOT allow the surface to drain. Fine sand is usually the cheapest though. $22-24/ton is a sand on the cheaper end, down here. Topdress 2-3x a summer at 7-8tons an acre and it can add up quickly.
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... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...
Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.
How many tonnes of sand roughly?
Tyler referred to aerate and backfill.
I don't know. This thing filled.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/OHSand_zps376b2cb2.jpg) (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/bokuhan_hagaromo/media/OHSand_zps376b2cb2.jpg.html)
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Saint Germain !
Clay sub-soil & sometimes heavy in places.
I don't feel free to disclose budgets, but it's certainly not big.
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Walton Heath
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Does heather grow or can it be sustained on clay?
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The rather large stand of heather at Walton suggests it can.
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I may be miles off here but doesn't the Surrey heathland have a fairly acidic element to it? Whilst the clay may be present, the acidity means a large number of other plants won't do too well, hence the success of the heather. It's a common misconception that heather will only grow on nutrient POOR sites; it'll grow almost anywhere but will inevitably lose out to other plants in more nutrient rich areas.
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... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...
Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.
How many tonnes of sand roughly?
Tyler referred to aerate and backfill.
Ryan,
I don't know exactly how many tonnes or cubic yards are used each year, however, the total cost to aerate all fairways, clean-up plugs, add topdressing sand is approx. $20,000. After about 8 years of this program, we have a nice layer of sand on top of the clay, allowing for much improved drainage and better turf.
TK
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The rather large stand of heather at Walton suggests it can.
Which also suggests Walton Heath isn't really clay.
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The rather large stand of heather at Walton suggests it can.
Which also suggests Walton Heath isn't really clay.
I believe Sean knows the soil at Walton Heath better than most.
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No doubt he does. If it is clay, as a playing surface it plays nothing like other clay-based courses.
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Some of the comments make me realize the average guy has no idea what a real low budget club actually is. Thinking they would have a line item for topdressing greens more than once a year and much less fairways is an unheard of luxury for so many.
There are a few in Georgia that do well without huge maintenance budgets but they are the exceptions.
Bill M,..that red sand is not actually red sand but a mixture of red clay silt and red clay. In many tournaments the bunkers cannot be played the day after a rain due to the silt layer and lift clean and place ir required in the bunkers. But I do like the look....
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The rather large stand of heather at Walton suggests it can.
Which also suggests Walton Heath isn't really clay.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'isn't really clay'. Walton, as Alan Strachan will confirm if he sees this, is essentially clay over underlying chalk. The depth of the clay layer varies. I know this from extensive conversations with people at the club, including Alan's predecessor, the late Ian McMillan, and its former and current greens chairmen, and also from reading Fowler's description of how the bunkers were drained, which I will dig out and post.
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No doubt he does. If it is clay, as a playing surface it plays nothing like other clay-based courses.
Agree, I was baffled when I first heard it is clay.....
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No doubt he does. If it is clay, as a playing surface it plays nothing like other clay-based courses.
Agree, I was baffled when I first heard it is clay.....
Partly it depends on the various layers but mostly on proper drainage. You need to ensure that drainage has a long term effect meaning it should be deep (4 foot at least) and also make sure there is good air circulation to help dry out the surface as quick as possible. Clay does not drain as well as a sandy soil but if addressed properly it should be possible to have firmish conditions through the winter.
Jon
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As Adam has said, Walton Heath is clay above chalk.
The British Geological Survey shows it as an area of "Clay - with silt, sand and gravel... on bedrock of chalk", whilst the Natural Environment Research Council show it as an area with soil texture of "clayey loam".
And before you ask, I'm not a geologist, I just have a couple of useful geology apps on my iPhone which come in handy when referencing vernacular architecture... ::)
A quick pan around these apps to a number of other "heathland" courses, shows them all to essentially be on sand of some description, so WH seems a bit of an anomaly from its subsoil perspective.
Cheers,
James
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No doubt he does. If it is clay, as a playing surface it plays nothing like other clay-based courses.
The description of the sub soil and style of course can be misleading. Little Aston is "classed" a parkland but most of the holes have a gravel and sand base. The course drains much better than your average parkland and just as well as the Surrey heathland courses. Stratford too is gravel based and does quite well in terms of drainage, yet its called a parkland. I think part of the reason courses get called whatever is down to the style of the bunkers. Little Aston most definitely has parkland (Augusta style bunkers) which make it look more parkland than it is.
Getting back to Walton Heath, would folks think they have a small maintenance budget? In any case, WH is easily the best conditioned "heathland" course I know of.
Ciao
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FYI, chalk is free draining.
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Chalk is unbelievably free draining, quicker than sand. But it's the clay on top of it that makes Walton's dryness impressive.