Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Josh Stevens on August 27, 2014, 07:28:27 PM
-
I was listening to the latest episode of State of the Game the other day, and Clayts mentioned playing at Bingley St Ives, calling it the worst of Alister MAckenzie's courses.
I confess I have never heard of the place, but yes it does not look a great piece of land from the website. Is it bad, or just less good?
-
Then or now?
Sharp Park must have been extraordinary when it opened, no sea wall, optional route Mackenzie holes, no highway, no holes up in the hills across the highway.
-
Andrew, I think Bingley St Ives is by Alistair's brother, Charles. Tom Doak certainly includes it in his list of wrongly attributed courses. Fulford is another that is often attributed to the wrong MacKenzie.
Depends on which MacKenzie you are talking about. ;)
-
AH, the black sheep.
-
Not having played any of AM's courses, I can only report that one of our posters said he hated Weston super-mare, and regretted going there.
-
Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall. Let us know how you like it.
-
Weston is like TOC. Hookers paradise and leaves people underwhelmed after the first visit.
-
Josh
I had always assumed it was Alister MacKenzie because Tom attributed it to him in the CG.
It wasn't terrible by any means and there were some good holes at the top end of the course from memory. We played there in the early 80s so its been a while. It might be the only course in the world starting and finishing with a par three.
We played there in 1983, went back to the place we were staying to be told about Jack Newton's accident. It's one of those moments you always remember.
Ken Brown tells a classic story of a couple of Yorkshire farmers watching from over the fence in '83.
He was playing with Sandy Lyle and over-heard them say 'That's Sandy Lyle - I like him but that Ken Brown - he's slower than soil erosion'
-
Troon Portland. I have nowhere near played them all but I have played quite a few of The Doc's and its this & daylight second (or is that first) IMHO?
PS. Sticklers might note that Fernie was the original archie but I understand whats left is mostly the Doc's.
-
Weston-super-Mare isn't a bad course at all. We must remember that Dr Mac inherited some stuff and some stuff has been changed.
The Dr Mac courses fairly close to me have all had some radical changes to the designs which alters the overall product quite a bit. The two most disappointing Dr Macs I have seen are Worcester and Sutton Coldfield. Not that either are bad courses and I like Sutton Coldfield quite a bit. Both courses have allowed trees and/or rough to completely destroy the design. At Sutton Coldfield tons of fairway bunkers have been abandoned and fairways narrowed considerably. The course is tough, but the difficulty is nearly all predicated on strangling rough and trees. Such a shame because the location in Sutton Park close to Birmingham is outstanding. At Worcester there is a wonderful set of greens which require approaching from correct angles. The trees completely take this aspect of the design out of play. Now there is little chance for heroic recovery from a bad angle, just chip outs mostly. Again, a huge shame because the course is a wonderful amenity for the city of Worcester being just across the Severn.
Ciao
-
Weston & Lilleybrook are the two Mackenzies around here. Of the 99% that don't know that they are of the same hand of the man that designed Augusta, when told most would have a blank stare.
Lilleybrook is on very steep land and its hard to find much love for the back 7 holes.
Weston is not blessed with much ripple.
In Macs defence, it is not his fault the land was less than inspiring but it does tell the story that its better to have better land than the best architect and perfection would be to have both and pergatory would be to have neither.
-
MacKenzie comments are reminding me of the recent debate on the merits of Braids work on pages 2 & 3 of the recent Perranporth thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59279.0.html.
atb
-
I have played many courses attributed to Dr. Mac. The difficulty is that many have been changed beyond recognition and so it is probably not fair to criticise what is there now as poor Dr. Mac GCA. Hedingly in Leeds is a good example which has great routing and green locations but very mundane greens. The routing is all that is really left of the good doctor. I suppose the worst I have played is Sitwell Park but then again the is almost nothing left there.
Mike C,
it was The Laurence Batley that used to be held at Bingley St. Ives. I remember watching you there for a couple of holes though I am afraid the pull of Sandy Lyle, Bernhard Langer and Nick Faldo led my 14 year old self to following others at bit more. The course is not so bad with some good holes on the tops. The first was usually a short par 4 which mad much more sense. Along with the tournaments at Fulford (York) and Moortown/Sandmoor (Leeds) there used to be quite a bit of live golf available in Yorkshire in the 70's and 80's
Jon
-
Jon,
Those three guys were awfully good back then - Lyle and Langer especially. Faldo was a whole new swing away from becoming the great player he did.
It was the Laurence Batley - a nice old bloke how seemingly made a fortune out of cash and carry supermarkets - what ever they were.I never quite figured it out.
The B&H was a really good week up at Fulford and it was never the same once they moved to St Mellion where the combination of brutal course and brutal weather wore pretty thin.
It is amazing there is now only one event in England on the European Tour.
-
Mike,
Cash & Carry is a supplier for the shop, restaurant, hotel etc. trade. He also sold carpets which made him quite a bit. I know he sponsored a seniors event for many years after the European Tour became too expensive. I remember watching players hitting balls to their caddies at the other end of the practice ground to catch.
Now Jack Newton is a good case of what might have been....
-
Jon
Jack was playing poorly at the time. He had lost his card in America - maybe in 1982 and only two years after he was 2nd to Seve at Augusta - and his plan had been to go and qualify for the 1983 Open at Birkdale but he fatefully decided to stay in Australia and do the television with Ian Chappell, the cricketer.
His accident was only a week later. He was 33 but it seemed at the time his best golf was behind him.
-
It might be the only course in the world starting and finishing with a par three.
Mike,
Golf de Divonne in France does too. I think it has staged a Senior Tour Event actually, wonder if they would change the routing for that...
-
Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall. Let us know how you like it.
I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.
-
Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall. Let us know how you like it.
I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.
Well, at least stop by and take a look!
-
Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall. Let us know how you like it.
I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.
Well, at least stop by and take a look!
Our tee times at B&B are late morning. Perhaps you can take a look before we play there. ;)
-
Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall. Let us know how you like it.
I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.
Well, at least stop by and take a look!
£60 mid week! With the exception of Burnham that is the highest green fee in the county and surrounding counties.
I'd want Mackenzie to caddie for me as well for that price.
Good luck to them if people pay it.
-
Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall. Let us know how you like it.
I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.
£40 is pushing it, I wouldn't pay that much. £60 is stupid. The Channel Course is better than W-s-M.
Ciao
-
The worst MacKenzie course I've seen is probably Redlands in California ... I can't remember if that was a redesign or brand new. It's too tight, and it's also a pocket for all the smog coming out of L.A.
-
I was going to say Dalmunzie in Scotland, but I looked up their website for the first time in many years and they now claim that it is an original Tom Simpson!
-
Now I know which courses to avoid!
-
Weston Super Mud as we used to call it.
Dr Mac can be forgiven, any more than a couple of hours in that town and you just want to leave, fast !!
Mini golf is more in tune with the surroundings.
-
Emil
I played the Senior event at Divonne - and don't remember the 1st or the 18th. Maybe 18 was a really long 3? I have no memory of the 1st.Weird. There was a long 3 on the back nine where I remember hitting a beautiful 2 iron that ran a couple of feet over the green and out-of-bounds.
-
What about Haggin Oaks?
http://www.hagginoaks.com/alister-mackenzie/
Hey Pat Mucci, lots of untucked shirts on this course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpmX4tAjFxs#t=176
Ulrich
-
I was going to say Dalmunzie in Scotland, but I looked up their website for the first time in many years and they now claim that it is an original Tom Simpson!
Rich
On one of the Arana threads a while back there was posted a brochure for Simpson and Arana which posted a whole lot of Simpson courses that included a private course for Sir Archie Birkmyre, this was spotted by Niall Carlton. Birkmyre was the man who owned Dalmunzie and had the private course there built for him. His grandson believes he only ever had one private golf course.
Previously there have been claims that Mackenzie designed it, and James Braid too! But no actual evidence. I never could find anything connecting Mac to it. This is therefore the first actual evidence as to who may have designed the Dalmunzie course.
As to Mackenzie's worst course, there are a few candidates. But Bingley St Ives is not one of them as this belongs to his brother Charles.
-
What about Haggin Oaks?
http://www.hagginoaks.com/alister-mackenzie/
Hey Pat Mucci, lots of untucked shirts on this course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpmX4tAjFxs#t=176
Ulrich
Haggin is Mac in name only. They put the nail in the coffin with the last redo about 15 years ago. The original plans are in the snackbar and they look great. They lost part of the course to road and freeway construction many years ago. It's not worth a play now.
-
Quite a few of MacKenzie's second tier courses around his Yorkshire base are a little underwhelming. A good example would be Low Laithes near Wakefield. It's not a bad course as such; it just doesn't feel very different from a hundred other courses built on the side of a windy hill, and certainly not in any way 'special'.
You would never imagine that it had been touched by the hand of greatness.
Could anyone else have done any better with the same site and budget? Probably not...
http://www.lowlaithesgolfclub.co.uk/pages.php/index.html
-
Well, it looks infinitely better than Haggin Oaks :)
Ulrich
-
Jon,
Those three guys were awfully good back then - Lyle and Langer especially. Faldo was a whole new swing away from becoming the great player he did.
It was the Laurence Batley - a nice old bloke how seemingly made a fortune out of cash and carry supermarkets - what ever they were.I never quite figured it out.
The B&H was a really good week up at Fulford and it was never the same once they moved to St Mellion where the combination of brutal course and brutal weather wore pretty thin.
It is amazing there is now only one event in England on the European Tour.
I've always liked Bingley St Ives personally, played there quite a lot when I was a kid. But it was designed by Charles MacKenzie, not his brother.
-
Quite a few of MacKenzie's second tier courses around his Yorkshire base are a little underwhelming. A good example would be Low Laithes near Wakefield. It's not a bad course as such; it just doesn't feel very different from a hundred other courses built on the side of a windy hill, and certainly not in any way 'special'.
You would never imagine that it had been touched by the hand of greatness.
Could anyone else have done any better with the same site and budget? Probably not...
http://www.lowlaithesgolfclub.co.uk/pages.php/index.html
I have seen pictures of Low Laithes shortly after it opened and it looked a lot better back then. As far as I am aware, they lost some land to the M1 motorway which made the course more cramped. Many bunkers have been lost, fairways altered and the general tree planting between holes includes some very misguided use of poplars and leylandii. Like many other Dr.Mac courses in Yorkshire it is certainly a shadow of its former self.
Jon
-
I was going to say Dalmunzie in Scotland, but I looked up their website for the first time in many years and they now claim that it is an original Tom Simpson!
Rich
On one of the Arana threads a while back there was posted a brochure for Simpson and Arana which posted a whole lot of Simpson courses that included a private course for Sir Archie Birkmyre, this was spotted by Niall Carlton. Birkmyre was the man who owned Dalmunzie and had the private course there built for him. His grandson believes he only ever had one private golf course.
Previously there have been claims that Mackenzie designed it, and James Braid too! But no actual evidence. I never could find anything connecting Mac to it. This is therefore the first actual evidence as to who may have designed the Dalmunzie course.
As to Mackenzie's worst course, there are a few candidates. But Bingley St Ives is not one of them as this belongs to his brother Charles.
Yes, Neil. I knew that.
Cheers
Rich
-
Re Dalmunzie - I have to say I really liked this short nine holer on my one play. From what I recall the architecture is actually very good but the green keeping is a bit basic as you would expect. If the local rabbit population ever gets hit by myxomatosis then the course could be in trouble. ;D
Niall
-
Re Dalmunzie - I have to say I really liked this short nine holer on my one play. From what I recall the architecture is actually very good but the green keeping is a bit basic as you would expect. If the local rabbit population ever gets hit by myxomatosis then the course could be in trouble. ;D
Niall
No sheep?
-
Quite a few of MacKenzie's second tier courses around his Yorkshire base are a little underwhelming. A good example would be Low Laithes near Wakefield. It's not a bad course as such; it just doesn't feel very different from a hundred other courses built on the side of a windy hill, and certainly not in any way 'special'.
You would never imagine that it had been touched by the hand of greatness.
Could anyone else have done any better with the same site and budget? Probably not...
http://www.lowlaithesgolfclub.co.uk/pages.php/index.html
I have seen pictures of Low Laithes shortly after it opened and it looked a lot better back then. As far as I am aware, they lost some land to the M1 motorway which made the course more cramped. Many bunkers have been lost, fairways altered and the general tree planting between holes includes some very misguided use of poplars and leylandii. Like many other Dr.Mac courses in Yorkshire it is certainly a shadow of its former self.
Jon
Be interested to see those pics Jon. I played Low Laithes once, many years ago. I remember a few interesting greens but not a lot else.
-
Be interested to see those pics Jon. I played Low Laithes once, many years ago. I remember a few interesting greens but not a lot else.
Your memory's clearly a lot better than mine then, Adam.
I played Low Laithes last year on a MacKenzie Society day out and can remember virtually nothing about the course other than that there is not a level stance on it!
I was chatting to a guy playing at Worsley a couple of months ago who turned out to be a member at Low Laithes. When I mentioned I'd played it he was dumfounded that I'd even heard of the place. I don't think they get a lot of visitors...
-
I was good friends with the assistant pro there when I was doing my apprenticeship at Howley Hall. He showed me a load of photos from the 30's (I think). I suspect they are somewhere in the club's archive or loft.
Jon
-
Tasked with organising our Wednesday Section day out next year, I've plumped for Crosland Heath near Huddersfield - a fellow MacKenzie course. I've just realised that there is another Mac course a couple of miles away - the 9 hole Marsden. How about combining the two?
Then I looked at the course photos. Is this really the work of the master?
http://marsdengolf.co.uk/marsden-course/#06
Maybe they are just poor photos. I'll have to take a trip to see for myself.
-
Duncan,
Marsden is okay from what I remember. Some fun shots and quite challenging around the greens. A combination of the 2 would certainly be an option. It is a lot better than Low Laithes but not as good as Crosland Heath.
Jon
-
Thanks for that Jon. I can feel a reccy trip coming on before the winter sets in!
-
Do it soon. Marsden village is itself pretty high up in the Pennines and extremely open to the elements. The golf course is higher still and would be brutal on a wild day. Have a pint in the Riverhead. Jon is right, the Heath is a much better all round course, but Marsden is worth seeing.
-
Cheers Adam.
I spent a memorable night in Marsden many years ago when walking the Pennine Way, so I know all about those moors. "Slaughtered Lamb" territory!
I played Ogden in the wind and hail last winter; now THAT was brutal!
-
Weston-super-Mare isn't a bad course at all. we must remember that Dr Mac inherited some stuff and some stuff has been changed.
The Dr Mac courses fairly close to me have all had some radical changes to the designs which alters the overall product quite a bit. The two most disappointing Dr Macs I have seen are Worcester and Sutton Coldfield. Not that either are bad courses and I like Sutton Coldfield quite a bit. Both courses have allowed trees and/or rough to completely destroy the design. At Sutton Coldfield tons of fairway bunkers have been abandoned and fairways narrowed considerably. The course is tough, but the difficulty is nearly all predicated on strangling rough and trees. Such a shame because the location in Sutton Park close to Birmingham is outstanding. At Worcester there is a wonderful set of greens which require approaching from correct angles. The trees completely take this aspect of the design out of play. Now there is little chance for heroic recovery from a bad angle, just chips outs mostly. Again, a huge shame because the course is a wonderful amenity for the city of Worcester being just across the Severn.
Ciao
It's hard to blame MacKenzie for trees planted after he designed the course! ;D
-
Weston-super-Mare isn't a bad course at all. we must remember that Dr Mac inherited some stuff and some stuff has been changed.
The Dr Mac courses fairly close to me have all had some radical changes to the designs which alters the overall product quite a bit. The two most disappointing Dr Macs I have seen are Worcester and Sutton Coldfield. Not that either are bad courses and I like Sutton Coldfield quite a bit. Both courses have allowed trees and/or rough to completely destroy the design. At Sutton Coldfield tons of fairway bunkers have been abandoned and fairways narrowed considerably. The course is tough, but the difficulty is nearly all predicated on strangling rough and trees. Such a shame because the location in Sutton Park close to Birmingham is outstanding. At Worcester there is a wonderful set of greens which require approaching from correct angles. The trees completely take this aspect of the design out of play. Now there is little chance for heroic recovery from a bad angle, just chips outs mostly. Again, a huge shame because the course is a wonderful amenity for the city of Worcester being just across the Severn.
Ciao
It's hard to blame MacKenzie for trees planted after he designed the course! ;D
Ace
I agree, I don't blame Dr Mac for these few courses being among his worst because the designs are good. Its the memberships which are out of touch.
Ciao
-
I want to say this in the most respectful way, Green Hills CC in San Francisco was a bit of a disappointment. Holes 15-18 were true MacKenzie holes but 1-14 were sketchy. In my opinion the greens were cut too short for the undulation. The 15th was very similar to the 18th at Pasatiempo and #18 reminded me very much of the 18th at the University of Michigan course.
-
A few years ago driving through the redwoods in Sonoma Co in Northern California we passed a little nine hole golf course that looked to me like it had been worn down to the basics over the years. It was called Northwood. It was just a guys’ road trip with my sons and not a golf trip. When we got to the coast and were having lunch, I picked up a travel flyer and discovered it’s one of Dr. Mac’s. I don’t know much about it other than curb appeal at 50 mph.
-
Northwood is a blast. The course was originally designed for the Bohemian Club, as I understand it. The infamous Grove is just across the Russian River. The conditioning is generally ok to poor, and it's a different kind of "tight" as the majestic redwoods lining the fairways really come into play about 50' off the ground. The greens have an obvious MacKenzie look, and at $14 for nine holes it's good fun. The locals are a hoot, too. If you play on an NFL Sunday, you won't be disappointed by the party in the bar when you're done.
-
Photo tour of Northwood
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28333.0.html
-
The worst MacKenzie course I've seen is probably Redlands in California ... I can't remember if that was a redesign or brand new. It's too tight, and it's also a pocket for all the smog coming out of L.A.
Redesign, not that there is much if any MacKenzie left. 1897 on that original ground, just younger than Del Monte.