Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on August 17, 2014, 05:46:12 AM
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1877 Map
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1895 Map
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A card of the course from sometime between 1895 and 1906.
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1862: Quarry on #2 filled in.
Winter 1868: The Redan created when course was expanded beyond March Dyke.
1877: Area around Marine Hotel drained. 16th green raised. The first tee moved from the eastern end of the Council Putting Green to near the current spot. Was Pit designed then?
April 1877: 9 new holes created by OTM and Davie Strath, now making a total of 18 holes up to Eil Burn. Perfection was a par 3 and Redan was a 2 shot hole; an iron over a wall then a long shot to the green.
1895: Course extended beyond Eil Burn by Tom Anderson Sr with guidance from Green Committee member John McCulloch; Perfection becomes a par 4. The hole orginally had a long cross bunker as on the 17th. Tom Anderson made a green of the plateau east (back section) of the current Gate Hole green. It is unclear if they were linked by the swale to make one green.
1896: Tantallon clubhouse purchased from Alex MacKenzie Ross for £1200.
1905: Host British Ladies Championship.
1906: 4th tee moved forward to eliminate cross-over with Redan. 10th tee moved back about 20 yards.
1932: Work by Ben Sayers and Maj CK Hutchison (member of Tantallon); 9th extended and new green; new par 3 tenth created; new par 5 eleventh created.
1933: Maj CK Hutchison; 4th shortened and green extended with a narrow rear section (is this Shipka Pass?). New 5th hole. New 6th green replacing double green beyond Quarry Bunker. New green for #12. 13th tee moved back 30 yards.
1943: Air Ministry use #s 9 &10 as an armaments range.
1954: Town Council purchased the Links.
2010: Host Amateur Championship with Muirfield.
2013: Host Local Final Open Qualifying for 6th time.
2023: Lamb Bunker (often called Redan) restored by C Johnson
Pit, Perfection, Redan and Gate is a celebrated stretch of holes and rightfully so. It seems inconceivable these 1329 yards of Promised Land could be matched let alone bested. It is worth noting that the four holes head in more or less the same direction back toward town and the three par 4s are quite similar in length at considerably less than 400 yards. Yet, no one could charge these holes as being remotely alike. That in essence is the lure of North Berwick; inexplicably the West Links takes all manner of risks and delivers at every turn.
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We sometimes forget how beautiful North Berwick is.
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The bunker short of the rise was at one time difficult even for the likes of Ben Sayers.
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Lamb Bunker was restored during the winter of 2023-24 by Clyde Johnson.
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Let us not, however, be so zealous in our extolment of the Four Laudables of Lothian so as to minimize the role of the West Links’ supporting cast. The 2nd (Sea), 4th (Carlkemp), 9th (Mizzentop) and 17th (Point Garry in) provide plenty of relatively orthodox and excellent underpinning at critical junctures in the round.
The second...with its beach in play.
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Sir John Lavery 1922 water colour of the 4th.
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Point Garry In (17th)
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Evidence that the trench bunker shy of the 17th green was a bridle path. There is also evidence the bunker once had sleepers in the face.
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There are also several surprises which can often be overlooked in our hubbub. These include the approach to #1, playing over (into, through?) the wall on #3, playing over water on #s 6 &7, the short 10th, Bass Rock, the approach to 12 and lastly, the reachable finishing hole as homage to The Old Course replete with misadventure down the entire right flank. Let there be no ambiguity, these holes are the essential rhythm section North Berwick.
Point Garry Out (1st) aerial highlighting the original shared nature of 1 & 18 fairways with a sandy path encircling 1 & 17 green and 2 & 18 tees. The double green of 1 & 17 was described by B Darwin as a "Terrible place where the green slopes away to the rocks and beach".
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A painting by K Reed.
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Ben Sayers at the 1st (which would have been the 17th in his day). The caddie looks to be the same as in the photo below. I suspect these are photos of a match between Sayers and Grant.
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D Grant negotiating a stymie on the 17th green (the 1st today). Notice the size of the beach. It looks like the 1st would have played much more like a dogleg right than is the case today.
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A view from 1st green.
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3rd
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10th
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Bass Rock
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12th
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18th; we can still see the outline of the sandy path which I expect connected with the bunker short of the 17th green.
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18th...1899 match between H Vardon & Willie Park Jr; photo taken from 15 Beach Rd...W Park Jr's residence.
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The names, yes, the golfers associated with North Berwick conjure up images of a more fundamental time in the history of the game. The photo below is prior to the extension of the clubhouse. It appears as if the green isn't raised as is the case today.
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The Tantallon house today.
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Ben Sayers, always the bridesmaid, never the bride.
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Robert Maxwell, winner of the Amateur in 1903 and 1909. Leading Amateur at the Open four times.
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And of course, the beauty of the town adjacent to sea and links is rarely mentioned, but ever present. Below is the beach off Church Road.
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Old Parish Church on Kirk Ports.
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1960s postcard of Quality Street.
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This most recent visit to North Berwick incontestably demonstrated the magnitude of the West Links. Can there possibly be another course whose fixins’ fuse in perfect harmony as on and at the West Links? 2* 2023
Whatever you do when in East Lothian, be sure to visit Mr Baird's museum.
vimeo.com/78474720 (http://vimeo.com/78474720)
Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/northberwick1/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/northberwick1/)
Ciao
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Sean,
wonderful words and photos! There is nothing I can add or say against them, often looking back to some great memories there.
If North Berwick is a 3* for you (I guess 3 is the highest then), how do you "rank" Prestwick? They are similar courses in character and quality, but I could go on forever comparing them. North Berwick obviously has more of a holiday feel than Prestwick. But while Prestwick too has unparalleled, unique holes that you describe at NB (1,3,5,13,15,17 I would say at PW), it has the much stronger "normal" holes for me. I love 4,9,10,11,12 and 16 for example and think they are very good holes far away from exotic blind shots.
Maybe I am really biased here, because I've had kind of a home and many rounds at PW, but for me PW is at least a 3*, too.
Cheers
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Cheers Emil
Yes, like Michelin, 3* is as high as I go. Also like Michelin, any star or recommendation is very good.
Prestwick for me is a 2* (I am planning on a return visit next summer).
Ciao
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Sean,
Thanks for posting. Probably the course I'm sorriest to have missed when I was in country...
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Sean,
And what is the real lesson here, hmm hmm?
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I may have played in the most ignominious four ball ever to play the third at North Berwick, as we all hit the wall with our second shots. :P
In a previous round I had the joy of knocking a 6 iron onto the second ("Sea") green from the beach. ;D
I'm with Sean, North Berwick West is in my personal top five. Can't wait to play there in May 2015!
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Sean,
You said, "Pit, Perfection, Redan and Gate is perhaps the most famous stretch of holes in golf and rightfully so. "
I don't agree. The vast majority of golfers... VAST majority... have never heard of these holes. The vast majority have never heard of North Berwick.
I had lunch this week with the head professional at one of our areas most highly regarded courses. He is originally from England, only 15 years removed from the greater Manchester area. He was not familiar with St Enodoc or Perranporth, our Buda courses, or Bernham & Berrow.
We are truly part of a very small universe of golfers!
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Sean,
You said, "Pit, Perfection, Redan and Gate is perhaps the most famous stretch of holes in golf and rightfully so. "
I don't agree. The vast majority of golfers... VAST majority... have never heard of these holes. The vast majority have never heard of North Berwick.
I had lunch this week with the head professional at one of our areas most highly regarded courses. He is originally from England, only 15 years removed from the greater Manchester area. He was not familiar with St Enodoc or Perranporth, our Buda courses, or Bernham & Berrow.
We are truly part of a very small universe of golfers!
Small but fortunate!
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Very nice and most interesting. Do you have any further photos of the holes taken from alternative angles, especially around the greens, that you could post?
atb
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Sean,
I think 12 and 17 are excellent holes, 10 and 11 are very good. I once admitted my disappointment with #18 to some locals when I was younger and their extremely polite response was, "but it's a greeaaat hole fur settlin bets."
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Sean,
I think 12 and 17 are excellent holes, 10 and 11 are very good. I once admitted my disappointment with #18 to some locals when I was younger and their extremely polite response was, "but it's a greeaaat hole fur settlin bets."
The 18th is a wonderful hole to play in the dark at the end of the day [which I must have done a half-dozen times by now]. You have the lighted clock at the clubhouse to aim at, nothing but short grass so you can find your ball unless you've blocked it into the cars on the right, and you will always be close enough to the green to see what you are doing for your second shot.
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The 18th is a wonderful hole to play in the dark at the end of the day [which I must have done a half-dozen times by now]. You have the lighted clock at the clubhouse to aim at, nothing but short grass so you can find your ball unless you've blocked it into the cars on the right, and you will always be close enough to the green to see what you are doing for your second shot.
And, if you hit a car you can sneak away without anyone knowing the culprit! ;)
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Wonderful golf course!! It's just great fun to play, whenever we're in Scotland we always make a beeline for it.
Re the 18th, I agree with the last few posts, I go so far left to avoid the cars my 2nd is invariably a nightmare!! I still have never parred this hole, one of my personal golfing disappointments. My mate has hit cars twice and he visibly shakes on the tee!!! Haha
Play this course if at all possible, it's a beauty.
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I was there on Wednesday with fellow GCA host Tony Muldoon.
Played through a persistent two club wind, against going out and with coming back. The narrow cross over area with the par three fourth hole and the fourteenth hole "Perfection" works as a Venturi as the wind velocity accelerates through the narrow passage.
What a fantastic golf course! What lovely views! Heaven!
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"We are truly part of a very small universe of golfers! "
Michael,
I pray that we remain so, and we are so much the richer for it!!
Malcolm
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It's a great course but I'm with Emil, Prestwick is better and more fun.
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Made a par off a Saabs front fender last time there. Such a special place, took a few guys there last year and the smiling never stopped.
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Is the drive over the beach 2 or 3? The few times I have played it I am overwhelmed by the blind first green, the beach and the wall. Sensory overload until you head inland on 4 or 5. Great pictures.
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Sean,
I think 12 and 17 are excellent holes, 10 and 11 are very good. I once admitted my disappointment with #18 to some locals when I was younger and their extremely polite response was, "but it's a greeaaat hole fur settlin bets."
Steve
I missed all the talk about a new bunker on 12. I think some of the subtlety has been sacrificed.
I agree, 17 is a fine hole, but it would seem I am quite dangerous there. I consistently pull my driver near (or on!) the beach. Imagine if that hole played to the beach-side of what should be a double green with 1?
Does anybody else think that given the green-site, #1 should be a better hole? If so, do you think making it a longish par 3 is the trick?
Ciao
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Sean
17 and 1 used to be a double green with (I think, but could be Muccianly Wrong) the hole positions reversed. If so the 2nd to the 17th would have been a great 2nd shot Redannish opportunity (with the added benefit of allowing your leftist-tendency tee shots to be rewarded), and the 2nd to the 1st a cool Alpsish hole rather than the goofy golf hole that we play today.
Rich
PS--3***??? You are either deprived and/or depraved......
j-p p
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Sean,
Now you have become more familiar with the course, what are your thoughts on the 3rd? I remember you once said in a thread that you thought it was a long slog with an uninteresting flat green at the end of it.
Its not one of my favourite holes on the course but I was always surprised at your description of the green. I really like it and it has plenty of movement.
12 is my favourite hole, albeit not the "best" hole out there. The whole back 9 is special as not one hole is anything like the holes that follow or precede them. Many holes are truly unique unless you are playing a template that has taken inspiration from them.
With regard to 1 and 18:
18 is a great match-play hole, not much more to say. In stroke-play its a great chance to steal a shot back from the course. I liken it to a 3-ft putt; you know you should make it...and perhaps thats why people falter here. The OOB should not be an issue but it always is.
1 has grown on me over the years but I'll never sit here and say its a world-beater. Its not far off the length of some of the great short 4s in the world and if you think about it, its a good risk-reward hole for the pros. Again, another good match-play hole, especially as a 19th.
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Brings back memories of a really fun day. Thanks for sharing!
MM
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18 is a great match-play hole, not much more to say. In stroke-play its a great chance to steal a shot back from the course. I liken it to a 3-ft putt; you know you should make it...and perhaps thats why people falter here. The OOB should not be an issue but it always is.
I've only played it the one time, there with you Simon, and I will never forget the moment standing on the tee and realizing I had lost my little insurance ticket. All I could think about were the cars lined up down the right hand side! ;D
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Sean,
Now you have become more familiar with the course, what are your thoughts on the 3rd? I remember you once said in a thread that you thought it was a long slog with an uninteresting flat green at the end of it.
Its not one of my favourite holes on the course but I was always surprised at your description of the green. I really like it and it has plenty of movement.
12 is my favourite hole, albeit not the "best" hole out there. The whole back 9 is special as not one hole is anything like the holes that follow or precede them. Many holes are truly unique unless you are playing a template that has taken inspiration from them.
With regard to 1 and 18:
18 is a great match-play hole, not much more to say. In stroke-play its a great chance to steal a shot back from the course. I liken it to a 3-ft putt; you know you should make it...and perhaps thats why people falter here. The OOB should not be an issue but it always is.
1 has grown on me over the years but I'll never sit here and say its a world-beater. Its not far off the length of some of the great short 4s in the world and if you think about it, its a good risk-reward hole for the pros. Again, another good match-play hole, especially as a 19th.
Fully agree with you, Simon on the 12th. Best hole on the course. Very subtle and very beautiful.
It and the rest of the back nine win the prize for most eclectic 9-hole stretch of good golf in the world. But great? Not, IMHO. Most of the holes are one-trick ponies, with very little subtlety or opportunity for strategy and/or confusion. As for the first 9, 4 is the only world-class hole on that stretch.
Overall 3 :) :) :) for NB, but not 3***.
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Simon
3 is good, helped a bit by the wall. I think the green is quite good so if I said it was flat I was wrong.
12 is good, but not special. I am not sure about the right/left bunkering for the approach and tee shot. For some reason, I think the hole could be better. The left/front fallaway section of the green and the bunker seem dis-associated.
I couldn't agree more that the diversity of the back nine is awesome and I disagree with Rihc, its great, not least because none of the holes are overpowering. But then I highly value originality - which NB has in spades.
#1, just an oddball start with a cool greensite. I can't help but think it makes for a better par 3. Yes, I like 18. I have never favoured the ball ache finisher.
Ciao
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I do love the West Links and agree with what you say but 3*? It certainly makes my top 10 and one day I hope to find a course that I would rate higher.
I give the first a pass, it mayt not be great but there are at least 3 ways of playing it on a windless day.
With apologies to two fine gentlemen of GCA, I wil sumarise as follows.
"The Holt" mid iron favouring the right side of fairway, to keep the pin in view.
"The Muldoon", aka hit and hope, the 4 rescue aimed at the rocks on the bank. Hope to see the top of the pin for my second.
"The Bonnar" driver aimed at the 18th tee. Takes the beach and the path out of play but features totally blind second.
Why are the 14th and 17th greens acceptable but the first not? Until about the 50's the path to the sea was one big sandy hazard full of hoof and tourist prints, and it meant you had to lay up off the tee. Not sure if harder in this case would be better.
The first sets us up nicely for the rest of the day.
However would the course be improved if the following greens had a little more going on?
In the order I would consider them
8
6
5
18
4 (good green but the shaping doesn't fit with the rest?)
Unheraded greens that I would look to for inspiration would be 3, 7 and 12, it really doesn't need any more standout ones.
However it's always a brilliant experience and (once again I state) I just wish more links courses had the figure of 8 routing that keeps you feeling you are close by the sea at all times.
Sean did you take a snap on the 17th tee, with Bass Rock illuminated in the background? That's always a special moment to me.
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Sean,
I suppose it's not surprising that you choose to highlight the run of holes Pit, Perfection, Redan and Gate. I found just now looking back that half of the photos I'd taken on this visit were on those 4 holes alone.
Hopefully some different angles from these photos to keep Thomas Dai happy?
PIT
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8560.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8560.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8562.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8562.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8563.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8563.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8566.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8566.jpg.html)
PERFECTION
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8567.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8567.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8570.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8570.jpg.html)
REDAN
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8572.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8572.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8575.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8575.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8578.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8578.jpg.html)
GATE
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8582.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8582.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8585.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8585.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8587.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20North%20Berwick/IMG_8587.jpg.html)
While I think about it, here is a link to one of my earlier photo tours, and if you scroll down you will see the old plan of the course which is always of interest!
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39703.0.html
Regarding the 12th, unless I've missed someone pointing this out, it used to be a much simpler hole, as described by Tom Doak in the Confidential Guide but the extra bunkers have taken away the subtlety.
I can't really add much more other than to also say how much I love North Berwick.
Cheers,
James
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I do love the West Links and agree with what you say but 3*? It certainly makes my top 10 and one day I hope to find a course that I would rate higher.
I give the first a pass, it mayt not be great but there are at least 3 ways of playing it on a windless day.
With apologies to two fine gentlemen of GCA, I wil sumarise as follows.
"The Holt" mid iron favouring the right side of fairway, to keep the pin in view.
"The Muldoon", aka hit and hope, the 4 rescue aimed at the rocks on the bank. Hope to see the top of the pin for my second.
"The Bonar" driver aimed at the 18th tee. Takes the beach and the path out of play but features totally blind second.
Why are the 14th and 17th greens acceptable but the first not? Until about the 50's the path to the sea was one big sandy hazard full of hoof and tourist prints, and it meant you had to lay up off the tee. Not sure if harder in this case would be better.
The first sets us up nicely for the rest of the day.
However would the course be improved if the following greens had a little more going on?
In the order I would consider them
8
6
5
18
4 (good green but the shaping doesn't fit with the rest?)
Unheraded greens that I would look to for inspiration would be 3, 7 and 12, it really doesn't need any more standout ones.
However it's always a brilliant experience and (once again I state) I just wish more links courses had the figure of 8 routing that keeps you feeling you are close by the sea at all times.
Sean did you take a snap on the 17th tee, with Bass Rock illuminated in the background? That's always a special moment to me.
Tony,
I agree with the greens you cite but the 13th may be the flattest of them all. This raises an obvious point about GCA in general. The wall is such a distraction that golfers skip along down the 14th without really noticing how uninteresting the green on 13 was. Its an awesome golf hole, but the green is actually pretty dull. Everything else about the hole is far from dull.
Using that as an exercise you can work through the holes you have mentioned:-
8. Its all about the drive. Extremely narrow fairway where you want to get your drive to be home in two. Its all about the bunkering so many will forget how flat the green is.....plus its massive. Kind of like a smaller version of the 9th at The Old Course. Distance control becomes the challenge for putting, not necessarily reading the breaks.
6. The distraction here is the bunkering and usually the sucker pin positions that catch us all out. I might add that this green has more to it than many think; lots of 3 putts out there
5. An accurate drive is key on this semi-blind tee shot. The green surrounds here are unusual for North Berwick with the drop offs either side and the mound at the back. I love the grass bunker to the left of the green, especially if you miss left and the pin is cut left. Its maintained at a grass height that allows for an aggressive putt, a bump into the upslope, a slingshot through, or try to land a soft one on a firm green and stop it. The interest from tee to green results in people missing what you rightly point out....simple green.
18. All about OOB and "the dip" before the green. Most golfers have to negotiate the valley, many putt out of it, so forget that the green itself is again, pretty tame.
4. You are absolutely right and I've never thought of the green that way. Like you say, its a really good green but it is out of character.
Cue controversy.
The 16th green is also one of the most straightforward to putt on. Anyone who has the putt we all want to try (through the swale) has no doubt done it for fun, after they have holed out. In all my playing and caddying rounds I don't think I've seen someone have that putt more than twice. Hitting the green is the hard part. If I can class this hole as a Biarritz (chicken and egg?) then the challenge on North Berwick's version is hitting the green. The angle of the green relative to the golfer's approach is where the difficulty lies on 16, not putting whilst on it.
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In addition to the angle, the width of the Gate green at North Berwick is only 1/3 the width of most of the Macdonald and Raynor templates. It presents some of the toughest recovery shots of any green anywhere to those who miss it ... and most everyone misses it!
Simon, what % of the time do you think you actually hit and hold the green on 16?
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The first time I played North Berwick, a very good caddy told me that the secret to putts from one half of the Gate green to the other, through the swale, is to play the putt as if it were straight. We tried a few and he was right, all the breaks canceled each other out!
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I'm a lucky guy. Here I sit, four days away from my first visit to Scotland, relishing to the chance to play North Berwick on 8/31,(the last day of our trip) and a Sean_A photo thread appears! Only problem now is how to tell my wife and friends that I want to blow off our farewell Scotland dinner so I can squeeze in a replay...
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Thanks for the photos. I'm playing North Berwick for first time on Wednesday and getting a second play on Friday.
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Personally, I think it would be nice to cut a 25 yard approach fairway on the far side of the wall on the 13th but hey... small stuff...
Hope to be back next year for the first time since 2008...
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In addition to the angle, the width of the Gate green at North Berwick is only 1/3 the width of most of the Macdonald and Raynor templates. It presents some of the toughest recovery shots of any green anywhere to those who miss it ... and most everyone misses it!
Simon, what % of the time do you think you actually hit and hold the green on 16?
TD
Gate is the one hole (possibly Point Garry in as well) which seems to have been radically compromised by technology. When I first played the West Links my goal was to get right so as to have a fairly up the gut approach. Now, if the hole is forward, especially if downwind, I want to smashmouth the drive as far as possible so I can hit a runner into the green. Those balls seen in my photo are our drives! I think a lot of guys have to worry about the bunkers left of the green for their tee shots :o - believe it or not, there must be some lay-up going on there. Its not easy, but a 40 yard kicker compared to 100 yard wedge is a much more comfortable shot for me. I recall hitting long irons and woods into that green into a decent breeze, way back when. Now, the wind has to be seriously strong to create that scenario. Luckily, the green is so difficult to hit that the flat belly has no guarantee of a birdie. Don't ask me how to play Gate with the hole on the rear plateau. Maybe play to the front plateau and hope to 2 putt?
Ciao
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Thanks for the extra photos James and the link to your terrific photo tour which I somehow managed to miss via the search engine. I now have more of an inkling as to what NBW is like, particularly having viewed the more famous holes from different angles plus the other holes not so often seen in photos. I've also noted Ally's comment in the photo tour thread about the excellent nearby pitch-n-putt course.
Looks like some pretty expensive housing.
I wonder what NBW was like before the sea defences were installed adjacent to the 1st and 2nd holes? I can imagine the sea must sometimes have been pretty invasive in times gone by (is it still I wonder - 2013 storms?)
atb :)
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In addition to the angle, the width of the Gate green at North Berwick is only 1/3 the width of most of the Macdonald and Raynor templates. It presents some of the toughest recovery shots of any green anywhere to those who miss it ... and most everyone misses it!
Simon, what % of the time do you think you actually hit and hold the green on 16?
Tom:
If the pin is on the back then I would venture less than 5% of the time. And thats not an exaggeration.
First you have to hit the fairway. In Medal play I would never try and get onto the back section on the fly unless I was into a wind, which would probably mean I had a 7, 6 or 5 iron in my hand so I'd still be trying to run it. As you say, its so shallow that unless you can tower shots in there very few will hold the green. I'd always pitch short left; if it runs up, great, if not then the two putt from short left is very makable if you've done it a few times.
When the pin is at the front the % goes up dramatically. Assuming from the fairway, I'd hit it probably 60% of the time but not chasing pins. Simply getting it on to the front of the front section and taking 2 putts. Downwind and fairway hit I'd be annoyed not to be on the front section. I can bump and run or putt from distance to get on it.
Sean:
The only laying up is for the burn into the wind! Drives can get close and on the rare occasion get up on the front section but anyone who is legitimately worried about driving into those bunkers is good enough to make par from them. In the bunker, out and 2 putt par, even from off the green. Miss the bunkers and you have an off green 2 putt for birdie.
Opposed to a lay-up giving a 100 yard up and down for birdie, downwind to an unreceptive green. Worth the risk in my mind....and much more fun.
I've been in the bunker left of the green around 3 times in what must be close to 1000 plays. My mates who hit it further than me would only ever take less club to hit the fairway. That's not to say no one has ever backed off due to length though; simply my take on it.
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Jeepers Simon. I am very surprised by your comments. I am not long. We didn't play with a hard tailwind and the ground wasn't terribly keen. I whacked a very good drive (for me) maybe 15 yards shy of the bunker. Okay, according to the card the drive was over 300 yards, but we could have been playing a bit forward. Even so, I would have thought there are tons of guys who could reach those bunkers in the same conditions...or maybe you lot ain't as good as I thought :D I guess my point still stands. Gate is nowhere near as difficult as when I first encountered it around 1992. You jest (I think) about the burn, but I recall one time having to lay-up and the wind wasn't howling.
Ciao
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Haha! I'm not that long but as you said yourself, its close to 300 yards!
No joke with regard to the burn. Off the Medal tees I've been in it 3 times this year into the wind. Its 230 carry but if you lay up its one hell of a second shot to pull off. Its 200 to carry off the forward tees, so rarely an issue unless into a howler. 17 is also long into the wind at 425 uphill off the backs.
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Until about the 50's the path to the sea was one big sandy hazard full of hoof and tourist prints, and it meant you had to lay up off the tee. Not sure if harder in this case would be better.
That's interesting, last time I was there God deemed it fit to recreate this. I thought it looked and played rather well.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa363/TomKelly14/North%20Berwick%20West%20Links/NorthBerwick1st01Tee_zpsa56e6474.jpg)
Sean,
The same day as the photo above was taken I booted my best drive of the day by a mile to creep over the burn on 16 from the daily tees and was then left with a long iron into the green if I remember rightly.....I also nearly got hypothermia, though I still left with a smile on my face.
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Some flatbellies to play it next year.
First Minister Alex Salmond has opened discussions with Aberdeen Asset Management (AAM) and The European Tour to extend AAM’s sponsorship of the Scottish Open until 2020.
The tournament, one of The European Tour’s flagship events, has gone from strength to strength with spectator numbers up by a quarter since 2011, and a Memorandum of Understanding to enter talks was signed today.
The negotiations seek to extend AAM’s sponsorship beyond the current 2017 contract and continue to build on the already strong reputation of the Scottish Open.
The First Minister made the announcement at North Berwick Golf Club which will host next year’s inaugural Scottish Open pre-qualifying tournament. The 54-hole qualifying tournament will take place the week before the Scottish Open, being staged at Gullane, and will offer six Championship places to Scottish golfers.
First Minister Alex Salmond said:“Scotland is the Home of Golf; the historical origins of the game, our magnificent courses and stunning scenery all cement that reputation to fans across the globe. And with The Ryder Cup at Gleneagles just weeks away, the eyes of the golfing world are falling on Scotland.
“The Aberdeen Asset Management Scottish Open has gone from strength to strength and is one of the most anticipated competitions on the Tour by players and fans alike.
“Aberdeen Asset Management’s tremendous support has had a huge hand in the tournament’s growth and the opening of these negotiations will hopefully see that fruitful partnership continue.”
George O’Grady, Chief Executive of The European Tour, said: “Naturally, we welcome the opportunity to further develop our sponsorship agreements with our Title Sponsor Aberdeen Asset Management and The Scottish Government – our longest partner in Scotland – for the Aberdeen Asset Management Scottish Open.
“Following the initial agreement, announced at Edinburgh Castle in March 2012, our partners have gained outstanding value from their association with the Scottish Open and The European Tour. As we strive towards our agreed vision for the 2020 Scottish Open, I have no doubt that the continued commitment, drive and vision of Aberdeen and the Government, working in partnership with The European Tour, will continue to enhance this superb Championship each year.
“On behalf of The European Tour, I would also like to thank North Berwick Golf Club for agreeing to host the pre-qualifying tournament for the 2015 Aberdeen Asset Management Scottish Open – North Berwick is a fitting links test to begin our inaugural Qualifying tournament and I am sure it will produce six worthy winners of a place in Scotland’s National Open.”
Frank Pratt, Club Captain at North Berwick Golf Club, said: “North Berwick Golf Club is delighted to be the chosen venue for the inaugural Scottish Open Pre-Qualifying Tournament in 2015.
“Established in 1832, the Club has a long and proud history of hosting Championship golf over our historical West Links. With views over the Firth of Forth, and of the nearby islands the course provides an excellent test of golf, and we look forward to welcoming all the qualifiers to North Berwick.
Read more at http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2014/tournamentid=2014054/news/newsid=232890.html#2dESo4e9cZt19Q0h.99
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All
See updated pix. What a place!
Simon
I see more bunkers have been added to the 12th :'(
Ciao
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Having been fortunate to play the course again a couple of times recently I'd say the 3rd and 7th greens are the most interesting IMO. In both cases you are just glad to hit the green with the approach shot for different reasons (length of shot at the 3rd and over the burn at the 7th) but once you get on you realise that the jobs only half done. Challenging yet subtle.
Niall
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Having been fortunate to play the course again a couple of times recently I'd say the 3rd and 7th greens are the most interesting IMO. In both cases you are just glad to hit the green with the approach shot for different reasons (length of shot at the 3rd and over the burn at the 7th) but once you get on you realise that the jobs only half done. Challenging yet subtle.
Niall
I think I will stick with 16 as NB's most interesting green :o
Ciao
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Sean
The 16th is certainly a remarkable green and good fun to try and hit with your approach, OK for trying to get onto from just off (chip or run ?) but fairly hum drum once you are on unless you are on the other plateau from the hole which won’t be often. The other greens by comparison have more interesting internal contours and IMO more fun for the short game.
Niall
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Niall
I think putting on 16 even on the same side of the gulley can be dicey if the hole is located by the edge of the gulley. Even trying to get on the green from the sides can be tough...reminds me a lot of Pinehurst 2.
Ciao
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The 16th green is definitely interesting but I'd say that was more to do with the challenge of getting on to it as opposed to the contours of the green itself. The front section is pretty flat and, whilst there is more slope on the back portion than the front, my main concern once on the green is distance control to ensure putts don't drift back down the gulley. I think this is fair and provides an element of reward for landing on the green given it is probably the most difficult to hold on the course.
As far as the short game goes around the 16th, most people will pull out the putter as it's the percentage shot. Bumping a chip into the bank might work but the uncertainty around how the ball will react when it hits the bank means that few (that I've seen) will take the risk in trying this.
Sean - the putt up the slope is certainly dicey, nothing more frustrating than either the ball ending back at your feet because you haven't given it enough juice or taking too bold a line at the pin and watching it fall off the edge of the gulley.
I'd also throw the 12th green in as one of the more difficult yet interesting at NB. With the big back to front and right to left slope it's very easy to end up in a position where getting down in two is nigh on impossible. I'm finding that the best way to play the hole, particularly when the flag is near the front, is to hit the approach short to the mouth of the green, between the two bunkers, and leave an uphill putt which takes out the possibility of running through the green and leaving a slippery chip/putt back down the slope.
David
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David, Sean,
I can understand where Niall is coming from in as much the 3rd and 7th are both greens that look fairly innocuous when hitting the approach shot but turn out to be not only quite large but also have plenty of movement. A three putt is more than a good possibility. The 12th is also a demanding green.
On the subject of the 16th it is a unique and fascinating green complex which allows divers options to play to it and results from approach shots. The last time I played there in the company of Tony Muldoon, Niall C and Jon Byron Niall, Jon and I were all about 100 yards short of the green. Jon was on the right of the fairway with the falg been on the front section. He hit a flighted wedge that pitched and held that part of the green about 15ft. Niall was more central in the fairway and hit a lower shot that pitched short of the green and ran up the bank to stop next to Jon's ball. I was on the left side of the fairway and hit a putter to about 10ft. Three completely different shots from similar positions that all had good results which is what NB is all about.
For the record, I do not recall where Tony hit his approach but he was quite a bit closer to the green than the rest of us were having nonchalantly wafted his drive a good 30 yards past what was my best drive of the day :o
Jon
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Jon,
I really like the 16th green and I think it's necessary that the green surface is relatively flat due to the angle at which the green sits in comparison to the fairway - the approach is what makes it such a great hole, particularly after you've already had the (sometimes wind dependent) decision off the tee whether to try to carry the burn. It just fits in very well.
To be clear, my comments about the majority of players using putter for the short game was really meant to refer to shots from around 30 yards and in once past the last of the fairway bunkers where you're probably too close to the green for any other type of shot to be effective. It's a completely different situation from the 100-150 yard mark where there are a multitude of options as illustrated by the various successful approaches used during your last round there.
Incidentally, I agree with Niall about the 3rd and 7th greens being the most interesting on the course. Both have an abundance of humps and bumps along with great variety around pin positions, with both having bowls that can funnel balls towards the flag and conversely shelves that can make even putting close a real challenge. Real imagination required - great greens.
David
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Now I've not (yet) played North Berwick so am in no position to myself comment, but I was chatting to someone recently who has played NB a few times about the reverse course at TOC and he raised the possibility that NB was another course that could perhaps be played in reverse, with a couple of tee changes for player etc safety.
Thoughts?
Atb
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Atb
Like a lot of these old time links, NB was played in reverse at one point to allow the grass on the normal routing time to recover. Of course it was easier when fairways were less well defined.
Niall
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The 2017-18 Winter Tour stopped at chilly North Berwick for a game. The links were in magnificent condition and I haven't seen the course play so well in a long time. Holes such as 16 & 17 playing into a stout head wind were very formidable.
Unfortunately, the stewards of the course continue to make changes which are very suspect. A new tee was added to 18...and for some reason it wasn't graded to match the current tee. I really can't understand why there seems to be such a flippant approach to changes...it is very depressing.
See the updated tour.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html)
Previous Stops
Alnmouth Village
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65709.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65709.0.html)
Little Aston
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html)
WHO
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61415.msg1460548.html#msg1460548 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61415.msg1460548.html#msg1460548)
RAC
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65366.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65366.0.html)
St Georges Hill
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36130.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36130.0.html)
Huntercombe
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg633321.html#msg633321 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg633321.html#msg633321)
Worcester
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.msg1348691.html#msg1348691 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.msg1348691.html#msg1348691)
Planned stops: Warkworth, Epsom & Princes
Ciao
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Did you take a picture of the tee, Sean?
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Ally,
I'll take a photo in a fortnight for the thread. It's not great.
Sean, I agree with you. Their seems to be no rhyme or (logical) reason for the tweaks. Some questionable updates since I started playing there:
- Extended tee at 1
- Added back tees at 6 and 12
- Extended tee on 18
- Fairway bunker size reduction on 17 (note, not the greenside bunker, but the hidden fairway bunker, which was taken in by a few feet)
- Tighter fairways
Sean, any others that you can recall? Nothing massive, but a few head scratchers...
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Well, other than general fairway width reduction, the newish (seems like there are twice as many as 10 years ago) bunkers on 12 are very dubious.
Ciao
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The cluster of fairway bunkers on the 12th are a bit of an eye sore. I've not paid much attention to the new 18th tee as the last few times I've played it's been roped off as G.U.R. The recent changes just highlight the difference between having a consulting architect and making changes in house.
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Michael
In fairness the current course is largely the result of “in-house” work and it hasn’t turned out too badly. That said, when I saw the new tee on Saturday I was immediately taken aback although I suspect in a few years time I won’t really notice it.
Niall
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Two other tweaks come to mind,
New back tee on 8 about 4 years ago which hardly ever gets used (thank goodness)
and this winters spreading of the back tee on 13 to the left, which I don't care for much either.
I think most of the tee changes have been to try and keep the length of the course up where possible to attract a few R&A events for Ladies and/or Seniors.
.... and no-one has mentioned the black clock monolith on the 1st tee yet... ::) .... like something from 2001 A space Odyssey!
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Two other tweaks come to mind,
New back tee on 8 about 4 years ago which hardly ever gets used (thank goodness)
and this winters spreading of the back tee on 13 to the left, which I don't care for much either.
I think most of the tee changes have been to try and keep the length of the course up where possible to attract a few R&A events for Ladies and/or Seniors.
.... and no-one has mentioned the black clock monolith on the 1st tee yet... ::) .... like something from 2001 A space Odyssey!
Ian,
Do you know what the story is with the clock at the first tee? For those that haven't seen it, it had the words Audemars Piguet above the clock face. I'm guessing the club felt that was overly blatant advertising and had it removed. It now looks particularly odd with the clock-face on this huge black plinth.
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I know at least one member of this forum thinks the changes to the drainage on 9 were a missed oportunity to add a little interest and subtle contour to the second half of the hole. He was able to make the club an offer to to give them free practical assistance. The then Secretaty told him somewhat plainly what he though of the offer.
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The bridges put in on several holes a few years back which pay homage to the Swilcan Burn Bridge. As with most of the many other clubs who have done this they lack the quaintness of the original and stick out like a sore thumb. Terrible, ill advised!!!! A few simple sleeper bridges was all it needed.
Jon
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Jon they were a gift from a man who wanted to give something back to his love of golf in Scotland. They can be seen at Prestwick, Troon and a few others. Unlike the original they have to take maintenance vehicles.
https://theimlayfoundation.org/john-p-imlay-jr/
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Tony
I've spoken to several folk who's paths crossed with Mr Imlay and without exception they all had nice things to say about him, and there is no denying his heart was in the right place, but that all said they don't half look chintzy. Better to go with something much more unobtrusive IMO.
Niall
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Tony,
I was aware of that but regardless of who donated them and good intentions they are still ugly in my opinion. However, it is just my opinion and I am sure there are some who will find them attractive additions to the course.
Jon
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I played a few holes with David Warren of North Berwick environs a few weeks back. He said there are tentative plans to improve the children's course and that his son, Benjamin, who has worked with a few well known archies may be involved. That can only be good news!
See the updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.msg1396567.html#msg1396567 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.msg1396567.html#msg1396567)
Ciao
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Sean
Can I just check, is Mr Warrens son really called Warren Warren ?
Re childrens course - what are they trying to achieve ?
Niall
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Sean
Can I just check, is Mr Warrens son really called Warren Warren ?
Re childrens course - what are they trying to achieve ?
Niall
No, I think its Benjamin.
I am not certain what the stated goal of the alterations are except an improvement for kids....I can't find any official print on the matter so it must be in embryo stage. There are also tentative plans for a wee house on site as well as there is a wreck of a shack there now. We shall see.
Ciao
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Benny hasn't told me about this, the cheeky little blighter...
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Some wonderful old photos etc in this thread. The sketch of the Redan Fortress and surrounding terrain is a cracker. Well done for posting.
Anyone have a photo of the sign for the Children’s Course that says something like “No adults unless accompanied by children”?
Atb
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DT aka atb
I think that the sign you remember was on the Gullane kids course.
As for NB, sad. The custodians of high end courses in Scotland have more money to spend than sense to rely upon. Sic transit gloria west course.....
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See the updated Tour. It includes a sketch each of 14 and 15 from an early 20th century book. The sketches were forwarded to me by T Gallant. It turns out I already had the sketch of 15 and thought it was a modern fake using an old template!
Previous Tour stops
Kings Norton
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71728.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71728.0.html)
Minch Old
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.msg1100536.html#msg1100536 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.msg1100536.html#msg1100536)
Welcombe Hotel - no photo tour
Painswick
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51629.msg1181534.html#msg1181534 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51629.msg1181534.html#msg1181534)
Planned Tour Stops
Stratford Park
Whittington Heath
Formby
West Lancs
Sandiway
Southport & Ainsdale
Hillside
Ciao
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Sean this is now an outstanding piece of work!
Not sure if its the latest version which has had the radical rethink but I was missing playing there and thought I'd reread your review. IMO the way you've reformatted it to abandon hole 1,2,3,etc and your knowledge makes this a great piece of work. This is what GCA should be for, an antidote to a few randomly posted pictures on social media. This is a real evaluation and assessment of why this is one of the very special Golf Courses out there in a very special town. Will read this again over the coming weekend.
If anyone is still wondering if they need to see North Berwick well here's your proof.
Congratulations.
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The first post on this thread may be the very best and most informative start in the history of GCA.
I played North Berwick one time completely by accident with my former college roommate I was visiting in London back in 1985. We took a multi-day drive up to Edinburgh and one delightfully sunny summer evening as he's driving my rarely playing roommate blurts out, "such a nice day we should play golf.. let's stop at the next course we come across."
Imagine stumbling across this wonder!
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Cheers Spangles and Mike.
What the hell kinda drive were you on in 1985? Was it drug induced? 😎
Ciao
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Cheers Spangles and Mike.
What the hell kinda drive were you on in 1985? Was it drug induced? 😎
Ciao
Strangely, I don't recall.
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When after many years of wishing you have the opportunity to play somewhere special .....
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs4ylanXwAAaMNE?format=jpg&name=large)
Thank you to some very kind GCA'ers for the opportunity and the delightful company.
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FuF8p_UWAA4_63f?format=jpg&name=large)
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Enjoy!!
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Love the new posts…i have searched for redan images before (in sebastopol) with no luck, but this was a fun dive into war maps, and I think I know now where the Redan was in the modern-day (Ukrainian!) town. Pretty damn cool.