Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tom_Doak on August 12, 2014, 06:05:10 PM
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I would like to do a match play between these two courses -- which seem to be the consensus #1 and #2 nine-hole courses in America -- to compare and contrast them.
Before I start my comparison, who else has actually played both and can contribute to the discussion?
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No, but I can fake it!
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I've only played Whitinsville but have heard stories about the Dunes Club from a lot of people. Not that it counts :)
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Played both. It's a matter of taste as to which one is better.
Tom D
If memory serves, you weren't a huge fan of the holes across the street at Whitinsville (3 and 4). Personally I thought the tee shot on 4 was awkward. The Dunes may be a bit tight and tree lined for some tastes, but it was a good, honest, and fun test. Both courses are simply outstanding in my opinion.
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I'll agree with the take on 3 and 4 though I did like the feature of the small collection of bunkers which I assume could be quite penal except for when you play down 3 fairway as I did
From what I understand, playing 18 at the Dunes Club is like playing two separate 9s--I didn't get that sense at Whitinsville as the "back" 9 was simply a bit longer from a different set of tees. Is that correct?
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I've been to both!... Plus the Sacred 9, to complete the trifecta!
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I've been to both!... Plus the Sacred 9, to complete the trifecta!
Best in America first, then the winner can go for the World Championship.
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I'll agree with the take on 3 and 4 though I did like the feature of the small collection of bunkers which I assume could be quite penal except for when you play down 3 fairway as I did
From what I understand, playing 18 at the Dunes Club is like playing two separate 9s--I didn't get that sense at Whitinsville as the "back" 9 was simply a bit longer from a different set of tees. Is that correct?
I was back at Whitinsville last year, and as I walked up #3 I thought: if this is the worst hole on the course, then it's a pretty damned good course. I actually thought #3 was better with some clearing done behind the green. I didn't remember if #4 tee was always back up that high.
The Dunes Club has more variation with its two sets of tees, but there are really only three or four holes that are much different ... notably the two par-3's.
I'll wait until morning to see if there's anyone voting besides Adam, Jaeger and myself. Surely Mark Saltzman has been to both? And I know Jim Urbina has been to both -- because I took him to both! -- but he might be biased, especially since that visit to Whitinsville was 15 years ago.
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I've been to both!... Plus the Sacred 9, to complete the trifecta!
Best in America first, then the winner can go for the World Championship.
Have you been drinking some of that Pink Jug?! They don't stand a chance v Mildenhall!!
Perhaps only the original 9hole version of Prairie Dunes could take down the Sacred 9
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I've been to both!... Plus the Sacred 9, to complete the trifecta!
Best in America first, then the winner can go for the World Championship.
Over-rated: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55859.0.html
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48309.0.html
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I've been to both!... Plus the Sacred 9, to complete the trifecta!
Best in America first, then the winner can go for the World Championship.
Have you been drinking some of that Pink Jug?! They don't stand a chance v Mildenhall!!
Perhaps only the original 9hole version of Prairie Dunes could take down the Sacred 9
I doubt either of them will beat Mildenhall on my card, but I don't believe it's sacred. The winner deserves a shot at the title.
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Tom, when are we starting the match play?? Very curious to hear your thoughts as I played Whitinsville a few weeks ago and was very impressed
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Tom,
I played both, but I heard Culver Academy, a course I prefer over the ones you mention, is getting some restoration work done by Bobby Weed this year. If that is true -and they do a good job expanding greens, putting sand in bunkers, work out the mowing lines and cut down some trees - I think that course could be viewed by a few folks as better than the other two you mention.
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Kye:
You are like one of those boxing promoters shamelessly interrupting the weigh-in to plug his own contender for the title!
Culver MIGHT be a contender after the work is done. I don't know when you last saw Whitinsville, but Gil Hanse did a great job tuning it up recently. And of course The Great Urbina is working his magic at The Dunes Club now.
On to the main event:
FIRST HOLE
The first at Whitinsville is a long par-5 [578 yards or something like that] starting right beside the small clubhouse. Both tee shot and second shot play over valleys, the second deeper than the first, before the hole turns left and rises to a high plateau green. It's a three-shot hole for all but Tour pros and a tough opener.
The first at The Dunes Club is a medium par-4, turning slightly to the left off the tee. The second shot is uphill, but not as sharply as at Whitinsville. It is more of a "firm handshake" opener.
My vote would put Whitinsville +1, although I can see some people preferring the other hole as an opener.
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So Hotchkiss is not worthy of consideration? ???
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Sweetens Cove? TD hasn't played there yet. :o
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Ooh, front row seats for what looks to be a shootout. I've not seen either contender unfortunately. Thus laments the guy that hasn't seen what he needs to in order to be architecturally knowledgable.
I'm looking forward to the World Cup round after this CONCACAF match. If there is a better course within 5 minutes of a US military base as Mildenhall, I'm not aware.
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Tom Simpson's 9 holes course La Valiere at Morfontaine is in the world finals, easily.
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Kye:
You are like one of those boxing promoters shamelessly interrupting the weigh-in to plug his own contender for the title!
Culver MIGHT be a contender after the work is done. I don't know when you last saw Whitinsville, but Gil Hanse did a great job tuning it up recently. And of course The Great Urbina is working his magic at The Dunes Club now.
Tom,
I'll be back up at Dunes Club later this month to see what Jim has done to the course. It's been a few years since I played Dunes. Unfortunately, I've not been to Whitinsville yet, but....
I have to echo Kye's statements about Culver. There's so much potential with the bones of that course just bringing back standard maintenance practices could shoot that course into the national spotlight.
Ken
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Kye:
Culver MIGHT be a contender after the work is done. I don't know when you last saw Whitinsville, but Gil Hanse did a great job tuning it up recently. And of course The Great Urbina is working his magic at The Dunes Club now.
I didn't realize Gil had done work at Whitinsville...what changes were made?
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The University of the South nine-holer (Sewanee, Tennessee), recently redone by Gil Hanse, should be in the mix.
A terrifically fun, challenging course.
Bob
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"I have to echo Kye's statements about Culver. There's so much potential with the bones of that course just bringing back standard maintenance practices could shoot that course into the national spotlight."
Having played the Culver course hundreds of times over four years while a student there, I'm not so sure about its potential. But I would love to be proven wrong. ;)
Bob
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The 8 original holes at Harrison Hills are nursing a double Jack and Coke in a small redneck dive bar somewhere in rural Indiana about now...
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I'm a huge fan of Whitinsville and would love to hear from others that have played both. BTW the third may be the weakest, but it has a very deceptive green with lots of break left to right and back to front. Until I played it a few times it just didn't look like it would break as it does. Overall, the design is excellent and the greens are even better, among the best I have ever played.
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Oh well I have to jump in with another finalist.
The new "short" course at Whispering Pines, superb.
That been said I have not played either of the two battling out it this fight for the right to face Newmarket in the final
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How about the original Rolling Rock nine?
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Is anyone going to stick to the topic of the thread?
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So Hotchkiss is not worthy of consideration? ???
Thank you Bill, but we're happily ensconced at #22.
I'm interested to see which of the two contenders prevails.
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Tom, I have played Whitinsville, and I will play the Dunes Club next week, so I look forward to chiming in late.
I think the first hole at Whitinsville is spectacular, so if you think that some people will prefer the first at Dunes, I can't wait to see it. The green really defines the character of the hole. It is so severely sloped from back to front and there are plenty of bumps and internal rolls. The severity makes you think about it all the way back at the tee, because you don't want to spin your wedge shot off the green, but you REALLY don't want to miss long. In this way, the hole is not unlike the 8th at Crystal Downs. You have to position each shot properly and then navigate a severe, exciting green once you get to it. Everyone talks about #2 and #9 at Whitinsville (as they should), but I think #1 should be a big part of the discussion as well.
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Anthony, nine is often talked about, but two? My favorite hole on the course is six.
Anyway, here is a photo tour that Mark Salzman did:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56830.0.html
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+1 Whitinsville... I like how it gives you a sneak of the super famous #9. The first at The Dunes sorta gives you a glimpse of the water about the only time on the property, but not enough to add anything... The first tee complex at the dunes is cool how it works w the clubhouse and the practice tee, but the hole in Mass is better
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I actually think 5 might be my favorite hole at Whitinsville...it's a tough call though. 6 is very good as is 1, 8 and 9
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SCORECARD OF THE MATCH
Hole Doak Kovich Messix Fowler
1 W + 1 W + 1 W + 1 W + 1
2 W + 2 W + 2 D a/s halved
3 D - 1 D - 1 D + 1 D a/s
4 D a/s D a/s D + 2 D + 1
5 W + 1 W + 1 halved W a/s
6 W + 2 halved W - 1 halved
7 W + 3 D a/s W a/s D + 1
8 D - 2 D + 1 D + 1 D + 2
9 W + 3 W a/s W a/s W - 1
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When you score a hole at Dunes Club do you take the best teeing area on all 9 holes as it really changes on a few holes? Will you score #2 as a whole vs #2 Whitinsville or the favorite tee box at #2 Dunes, and would the option of having two different #2s factor into the score?
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Maybe this should be Ran's new criteria for joining the discussion board - i.e. have you played both the Dunes Club and
Whitinsville? That should keep the numbers down....
(Existing members are grandfathered in....lest the discussion board drops down to 6 members and Tom is left to compliment his own courses :))
Peter
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When you score a hole at Dunes Club do you take the best teeing area on all 9 holes as it really changes on a few holes? Will you score #2 as a whole vs #2 Whitinsville or the favorite tee box at #2 Dunes, and would the option of having two different #2s factor into the score?
We will factor in the optional teeing grounds for some holes for the added variety they offer. But you can only play them one at a time.
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Anthony, nine is often talked about, but two? My favorite hole on the course is six.
I really like 6 as well, so no disagreement there. Maybe we should wait until we get to #2 to discuss the hole in more detail. For me, it's one of those great, classic, Ross, New England, short par 3's (comparable to the 3rd at Wannamoisett). Lore around Whitinsville is that Crenshaw lobbied for both 2 and 9 to be included on one of Golf Magazine's lists of the best holes, but they couldn't justify having 2 holes from some unknown 9 hole course! I have no idea if that story is true, but my impression from talking to a few of the members is that they think of both 2 and 9 as their masterpiece holes.
Also, if we're going to give the Dunes Club credit for variety of teeing options (which we should), we should also point out that at Whitinsville, the members also typically play the course twice and switch tees. On some holes, the tees are not very far apart, but on other holes there is a significant difference. For example, 1 plays very differently from the different tees (a great three-shot hole from about 575 and a potentially reachable but still challenging hole from the front tee--maybe 520). I also remember a big difference between the tee boxes on 5.
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Well, then, on to the second holes. Both are par-3's.
Whitinsville's 2nd is a fairly short par-3, playing slightly downhill to a raised plateau green along the top of a small ridge. Miss the green by a couple of yards short or long, and you're playing from a bunker; mis-club by more than that, and you're pitching up over the bunker from further below. I agree with Anthony's take that it's one of the best holes on the course.
The case of the 2nd at The Dunes Club rests on its two teeing grounds, which are 90 degrees apart and provide very different angles of approach to the green, either of them skirting a large patch of open sand which stretches back toward the tee. It's been a while since I played this hole [on my last visit, I played #4 through #9 after arriving late], but I don't remember the green as being anything special, or making the most of the two different approach angles. [Also, one tee is quite close to #1 green, but the other is quite a long walk.]
For me, the green complex at Whitinsville trumps the alternate tee at The Dunes. Whitinsville +2
Note: I just noticed that Adam Messix has forwarded me his match play card; says he will check in to comment when he can. I will post his result with mine as we go. He had Whitinsville winning the first hole, but The Dunes evening the match on #2.
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Love #2 at Whitinsville - the slightly down hill tee shot - the thinking on the tee that this will be an easy shot and how much trouble abounds.
Two questiosn
1-Is it better than #3 @ Wannamoisett?
2- How original is the green complex - any work done on it since Ross's day?
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I'm loving this thread as I'm about an hour away from Whitinsville, I think I need to make the trek out there to play it sooner rather than later.
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1-Is it better than #3 @ Wannamoisett?
I much prefer #3 at Wannmoisett. Yardage wise, it's a bit shorter than Whitinsville, but it requires a much more exacting shot in my opinion. Even if you hit the green, a 2-putt is not a given from beyond the flag and getting up and down from the bunker on the left is incredibly challenging. Not only that, but I've seen shots bound off the right ridge of the green and into the hazard on dryer days.
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Love #2 at Whitinsville - the slightly down hill tee shot - the thinking on the tee that this will be an easy shot and how much trouble abounds.
Two questiosn
1-Is it better than #3 @ Wannamoisett?
2- How original is the green complex - any work done on it since Ross's day?
I don't think it's better than #3 at Wannamoisett, where there is more premium on a straight tee shot. But both are fine holes.
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+2 Whitinsville... Aesthetics are clearly better at The Dunes, but the walk (routing) is a negative here. I like the simplicity in Whitinsville's short hole.
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On to the third hole ...
You have to cross the road to play holes 3 & 4 at Whitinsville, so they start off feeling a bit disconnected from the wonderfully-fitting puzzle pieces on the main part of the property. The par-4 3rd has been pegged by me before as the one weak hole on the course. It's not an easy hole ... a medium-length straightaway par-4 playing slightly uphill, to an elevated green with a steep hillside behind it. It's a back to front green with quite a bit of sideslope as well, but I haven't had the impression that you need to drive to one side to tame the approach.
The 3rd at The Dunes Club is the first of two excellent par-5 holes, which are one of the strengths of the course. The second shot has to carry a sandy cross hazard [Hell's Quarter Acre?] and the landing area on the far side is not overly generous, either. I don't remember this green as well as some others, but it's a fine three-shotter.
I have The Dunes Club winning hole #3, to pull back to one down. Adam has The Dunes winning as well, +1 on his card.
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Just an aside - excuse the interruption. I've been a bit surprised by the way Tom describes/analyzes/compares the holes in this kind of head-to-head match. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but this direct and practical approach to playing the golf holes, e.g. "the second shot has to carry a sandy cross hazard", "it's a back to front green with quite a bit of sideslope", is somehow not how I thought TD would come at this.
Peter
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Just an aside - excuse the interruption. I've been a bit surprised by the way Tom describes/analyzes/compares the holes in this kind of head-to-head match. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but this direct and practical approach to playing the golf holes, e.g. "the second shot has to carry a sandy cross hazard", "it's a back to front green with quite a bit of sideslope", is somehow not how I thought TD would come at this.
Peter
Peter:
Interesting. If I was comparing the courses overall, my style would be somewhat different -- I would be more inclined to talk about the style of bunkering and greens, and talk about the holes as groups [that The Dunes has two fine par-5's, Whitinsville has only one]. But then everybody would have to trust my overall grade for the two courses. Instead, this a head-to-head match play of golf holes; I don't know how else I would do it.
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Tom - I'm not sure either what I was expecting or how you would/could approach a head-to-head differently. But I was struck by the absence so far of both an "architect's approach" and a "gca critic's approach". For example, so far I've not read any mentions of how effectively the sites' features were utilized in crafting the green sites, or about the strategic options/risk-rewards in the Par 5s -- both kinds of comments often being at the heart of many a discussion/analysis/head-to-head comparison around here.
In other words (and remembering Tom Huckaby's approach), you seem to analyzing/comparing the golf courses and not the designs, and doing so in a very clear cut way.
That's not a criticism of your approach, but again just a bit of a surprise for me. I found myself thinking: if I ever played two of your courses and you asked me to have them go head-to-head, I'd probably feel compelled to analyze much more "deeply" in search of some subtle but crucial differences in the designs, e.g. noting how a hole on one course was more strategic than on the other, or praising the use of the natural features on one hole and not the other -- while for all your experience and expertise in and writings on gca, you seem to be keeping it as simple as "this hole works this way, that hole works that way, for me I like the first way better".
It is as if this head to head approach is mostly in terms of, egad, "shot values"! :)
Peter
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Same as Peter--I was expecting you to wear your architect's hat only.
Not that there's anything wrong with a player's perspective.
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If the third at Whitinsville is the weakest hole on that course, it sure says a lot about how good the rest of those holes are! Some course would proudly point to it it as one of their best. Last Oct I had a putt from the front of #3 to a back center hole location. I left it 5 feet short (it's hard to judge just how much uphill that green is) and had the ball roll back to my feet. On my second go around on the back nine I knew what had to be done and had the same thing happen, the ball simply MUST be played to or past the hole to keep from being degreened; a fine golf hole.
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Same as Peter--I was expecting you to wear your architect's hat only.
Not that there's anything wrong with a player's perspective.
Okay, I will try to do that at the end, to see if the two approaches differ in terms of results.
I do think you're making a bit more of the difference than there is ... a lot of architecture IS about how the individual holes play.
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Tom,
In the Confidential Guide you said Whitinsville had 6 World Class holes. Obviously 3 and 4 wouldn't fall into that group; which hole besides those doesn't make the Top 6?
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Okay, I will try to do that at the end, to see if the two approaches differ in terms of results.
I do think you're making a bit more of the difference than there is ... a lot of architecture IS about how the individual holes play.
I don't mean to tell you how to conduct your own competition--this was Peter's stupid idea and he made me go along with it.
Agreed architecture is ultimately about playing. But I think most of us on here expect you to give us the inside baseball of the design--something we can only speculate about.
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Okay, I will try to do that at the end, to see if the two approaches differ in terms of results.
I do think you're making a bit more of the difference than there is ... a lot of architecture IS about how the individual holes play.
I don't mean to tell you how to conduct your own competition--this was Peter's stupid idea and he made me go along with it.
Agreed architecture is ultimately about playing. But I think most of us on here expect you to give us the inside baseball of the design--something we can only speculate about.
It's interesting to hear it from the playing side. I think the architect view comes out somewhat subconsciously
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Fourth hole up:
The fourth at Whitinsville is not for everybody; well, mostly not for right-handers who hit a power fade. It's a medium-length par-4 playing back opposite #3 toward the road, doglegging left around a large tree that's a bit over 200 yards off the tee [guessing as I don't have Google Earth handy]. The golfer who can hit a draw gains great advantage here. Those who play the power fade may have to lay back off the tee so as not to visit the tree line down the right, which is extra tough because that leaves a long second shot to a well defended green with a steep drop off the back. This was one of the three holes I said wasn't world-class, but I was still impressed with it on my last visit.
The fourth at The Dunes Club plays back parallel with the par-5 3rd; in fact, the midsection of The Dunes property has five parallel fairways lined up in a row [3, 4, 5, 8, 9, with the 1st a bit removed over a ridge]. This is a strong two-shotter with lots of trouble up the right side for leaky second shots. It's a bit harder hole than the one at Whitinsville, but for me the two are pretty even in terms of quality.
I will give the fourth hole to The Dunes, though I think it was very close -- pulling the match back to all square. Adam gives this hole to The Dunes, putting it 2 up on his card. Guess that shows what a subjective exercise this is.
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Dunes Club wins both #3 and #4 for me... Taking the match to back to even... I like the little artsy stuff on The Dunes #3, it is all in strategic places. I also like looking over the fence at the open bit of property. Overall I would say both #3's are stronger than both #4's.
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Surprised no one has mentioned the green on 3 at W. It is tremendous and difficult. Lots of contour with steep back to front slope. If the pin is back and you go over good luck. Also, the long hitter can carry the tree gaining great advantage.
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On to the fifth hole - could it be a turning point in our match?
The 5th at Whitinsville is a long par-4 playing to the far back corner of the property. After crossing the road from the 4th green, the tee shot plays roughly parallel to the road as it recedes into the trees along the right. A hill on the right with a prominent fairway bunker intrudes into the fairway. If you play away from it the drive bounces to the left and maybe through the fairway, but if you challenge the bunker with a good drive it kicks forward and leaves a much shorter second shot into a well guarded plateau green.
The 5th at The Dunes Club is a medium length par-4. The tee shot is played straight ahead into a reasonably wide fairway with native grasses and sand to both sides; the challenge is the second shot, played straight over the course's irrigation pond to an oasis of green with a large dune ridge directly behind. The green is one of the best on the course, with a good back to front slope and a prominent shelf in the green.
Tough call here. Personally I'm not a big fan of forced carries over water, so The Dunes Club is starting in the hole, though it's a fine hole of its type. Meanwhile, the 5th at Whitinsville is one that didn't wow me until my last visit; I think Gil must have cleared some trees or widened the fairway to bring out more of the strategy in the tee shot. But on that last visit, the 5th jumped up in my estimation to being one of the best holes at Whitinsville, and I have to give it the nod here.
On my card, that puts Whitinsville back to 1 up. Adam scored it a draw, keeping The Dunes 2 up in his analysis.
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Agreed--the 5th is one of my favorite on the property at Whitinsville
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Tom--
It's interesting that given my draw, you'd think I'd love the 4th at Whitinsville, but I actually found the tee shot rather awkward, doglegging a bit too early in my mind... that's why the nod went to 4th at Dunes.
The 5th holes are so different, yet I liked both very much. I know the carry over the water is not going to appeal to everyone and the tee shot at Whitinsville is a cool Ross feature that you see in many of his drawings but the bunkers (like the one on 4 at Rolling Rock) disappear. But, I really liked the green setting on #5 at the Dunes and the green is full of interesting putts. It's been a while since my last visit to Whitinsville so I haven't had a chance to see Gil's work, so based upon that, the holes halve.
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I'll take Whitinsville's #5... I was fairly put off by the long walk back to the tee at The Dunes. #5, is in the series of parallel holes, and the only way to differentiate these holes was staggering the tees. I'm sure the tree clearing behind the green for the new tees on #6 has helped the green site, but I just hate the idea of being forced to walk so far out of the way, just to make the carry of the water work... At least walking across the road makes sense in Mass.
That puts Whitinsville back to +1 in my match.
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I've never played Whittinsville and I'll give it the win here. The forced carry over water to a shallow, if wide, green won't win many matches in my view.
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Since everyone has weighed in on #5, and I'm traveling tomorrow, I will post hole #6 now.
In some ways it's a shame that we have to keep comparing these courses by hole number, because the 6th at Whitinsville and the 7th at The Dunes are both interesting short 4's, and their counterparts are both very good par-3's, and it would be simpler to compare those holes straight up. But, we'll stick to the rules we brought.
The 6th at Whitinsville is just a wonderful hole of the sort that seems to be getting lost in the shuffle in today's game -- the classic drive and pitch hole. The hole reverses course on #5, playing out to high ground just before another deep swale through the property, and then doglegging sharply to the right for a pitch over the swale to a green set precariously at the top on the far side. There is a bunker [or two?] at the inside of the dogleg, and another deep one to the right of the green, so there is no question of cutting the corner. The green is probably the most severe of any on the course, as well, with some steep sections and some falling away to the right. Heck of a hole.
The 6th at The Dunes is a daunting par-3, with its green and the main tees set atop the ridge just behind the 5th green [changing direction by 90 degrees from all the parallel fairways, playing from left to right as you look up from #5]. There are also tees down below the ridge to the left, and a new tee to the right that I'm having a hard time visualizing, honestly. It is a hole that can change character and play almost however you want it to play, but no more than a mid-iron if my memory serves.
When in doubt, I'll go with the magnificent green almost any time. The par-4 at Whitinsville wins the day for me, and for Adam as well.
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I've never played Whittinsville and I'll give it the win here. The forced carry over water to a shallow, if wide, green won't win many matches in my view.
You have #12 Augusta in mind? ;D
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I've never played Whittinsville and I'll give it the win here. The forced carry over water to a shallow, if wide, green won't win many matches in my view.
You have #12 Augusta in mind? ;D
Not really, since it's a short one-shotter.
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Tom... We have a different conception of distance. I am a short hitter,who only drives the ball 200 yards on a good day. The fifth at Whitinsville is not a challenge to carry the bunker.
The sixth, on the other hand, is anything but short for me. It is 385 and then 405. Almost all carry to the green, as if you land short of the green, it will hit the hill and roll down to thethe valley. You then have a blind shot to the green.
I play to a 17 and it is rare for me to reach the green. It is far from a drive and a pitch, but it may be so for others. I also love that the fringe of the green on the backside goes downhill to the next tee. If you're over the chip or putt is a killer. It is not unheard up to chip up the hill from over and end up on the other side, now short of the green.
Just a tremendous hole.
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In some ways it's a shame that we have to keep comparing these courses by hole number, because the 6th at Whitinsville and the 7th at The Dunes are both interesting short 4's, and their counterparts are both very good par-3's, and it would be simpler to compare those holes straight up. But, we'll stick to the rules we brought.
I agree with this sentiment. It probably makes more sense to compare 3's to 3's, et cetera, but this is a pretty easy format to follow, so we're better off sticking with it. Having said that, I think #6 at Dunes Club is one of the most scenic and challenging inland par-3's that I've ever played.
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I had a chance to see the Dunes Club today, so I'm ready to chime in with my score card up to this point.
The 1st hole goes to Whitinsville. I love this hole for all the reasons that I discussed before. The 1st at Dunes is good, but the tee shot is a little crammed, and there's not much excitement here. The bunkering behind the green is beautiful but doesn't really come into play. The shaved area to the left of the green is cool, but this hole doesn't keep up with the wonderful green on the 1st at Whitinsville.
I'm calling the second hole a draw. It's hard to compare these two great par 3's because they have such different characters. I love the variety of tees at the Dunes, along with a beautiful setting and interesting green. It's also hard to beat the charm and fun of the 2nd at Whitinsville. Because I could debate the merits of the two holes all day, I have to call this a draw.
The 3rd hole goes to the Dunes Club. I agree with others that 3 and 4 are the weakest holes at Whitinsville partly because they're disconnected and you can't wait to get back to the other side of the road (even though the holes have their merits). The 3rd at Dunes is a great par 5 which is reachable from some tees and in some winds and a really engaging three shotter from the back tee or into the wind. The green is interesting, and the bunkers around the green are spectacular.
The 4th hole also goes to the Dunes Club. It's just a good, solid par 4 requiring two good shots to a small target with a lot of subtle contour on the green. The 4th at Whitinsville is fun. I remember having fun with the tee shot and figuring how to navigate the big tree on the left, but in the end, it didn't seem to matter that much, because the hole is relatively short and forgiving.
The 5th goes to Whitinsville. This is a relatively tight hole off the tee, but the approach shot with a mid iron to a raised green is wonderful. The 5th at Dunes has no interesting strategy and it's probably my least favorite green on the course (just two levels without a lot of internal movement on each level).
The 6th is another draw. I really love both holes for reasons that others have already mentioned. The right tee box at Dunes is really great, so Tom, you should get back there and remind yourself. Because I love both for different reasons, I have to call this one a tie.
At this point, that leaves the courses even through 6 on my card. I look forward to discussing this further.
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interesting discussion yet these type of comps always evoke the thought that "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" and thus are superfluous
thus I need to play or see them regardless of the discussion, LOL
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As I am heading to NZ tonight, I will post the 7th hole this morning, and the last two while waiting for my flight ... assuming I have time. Otherwise it's going to be a few days before I can finish. I'll post all my scores for the remaining holes [and Adam's] on the scorecard on page 2, so the discussion can continue without me. Funny enough, we've been apart on many holes through #6, but we agree on each of the last three.
The seventh at Whitinsville is a fine long par-3 across another of the deep valleys in the property ... the green sits close to the back of the first green and second tee, and very close to the slope in front, although it's not as steep short of the green as the previous hole. There are two bunkers guarding the right of the green, and one on the left just a bit removed from the line of play, so the hole feels a bit left to right even though the approach is open across the front. At about 180 yards, it is a really good, straightforward hole.
The seventh at The Dunes is a short par-4 with a sharp dogleg to the left. From the first time I saw it, I've thought it was the one really awkward hole on the course, crammed into the back of the property. The tee is on the end of the long ridge and the green is back up against it, but the fairway plays well out to the right. In the early days the vegetation inside the corner was quite thick and the hole was a definite lay-up out to the right. More recently they have cut trees and thinned out the rough to try to encourage golfers to hit a more risky tee shot up the left, but it still doesn't set up right for me.
I give the 7th hole to Whitinsville, which neatly wraps up the match for me, 3 up with 2 to play. Adam also gives it to Whitinsville, pulling his match all square. The Dunes Club fans will cry foul here, with the course's best hole on deck.
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Can't argue since I don't know Whittinsville but you're right that the Keiserophiles will cry foul since 6 lost (despite being an amazing par-3) and 8 and 9 are irrelevant on the Doak card despite being the best consecutive holes on the course.
As for 7, I am in agreement. We need to cut down a bunch of trees on the left and open a view of the green to give a bomber a risk reward option off the tee. The hole is too one-dimensional now.
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Since others have posted their full scorecards, I'll do the same.
I'll diverge from the rest and give 7 to the Dunes Club. I agree that the hole is a little tight and awkward off the tee, but there is room to challenge the hole if you're willing to take on some risk. The hole looks and feels very different from the left tee box which is a nice feature. I really like the approach shot here. It's slightly uphill and the green complex is really interesting. You can use the back left portion of the green as a backboard, but if you go long, you'll have a very difficult up and down. 7 at Whitinsville is also very good but strikes me as a big more generic. I've seen a lot of holes like it before, but 7 at Dunes is more unique and interesting.
I'll wait to discuss 8 and 9, but I will give 8 to the Dunes Club and 9 to Whitinsville. 8 is one of the best holes at the Dunes and 9 at Whitinsville is a true masterpiece. Unfortunately, it came too late as Dunes won my match 2&1.
I'll agree with others that the hole-by-hole match masks a lot of interesting comparisons between the courses and discussions of them. I'm sure that will follow as the matches conclude. Even though the individual holes at Dunes are very strong (winning my match), I think the overall course and experience may be better at Whitinsville. For example, the five par 4's at Dunes are all pretty good, but there's not much variety. Playing each one twice, I never hit more than a 5 iron or less than a 9 iron for my second shot on a par 4, and I usually had a relatively flat lie hitting to a green that was at the same level or slightly above me. Whitinsville is the opposite story where holes like 5 and 9 can really challenge you, holes like 4, 6, and 8 require a lot of finesse, and almost every shot provides a different experience and challenge.
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I will post my thoughts on 8 and 9 together.
The eighth at Whitinsville is a short par-4 doglegging left, the only hole on the course that feels just slightly awkward to me. Actually, it would have been a good companion for The Dunes #7, it's sort of a similar hole. The tee shot is back over the valley you hit across at the par-3 7th, and only a good drive will get up the hill far enough to get a good view of the green.
The eighth at The Dunes has always been the most talked about hole on the course. Like the 3rd hole, the fairway is interrupted just past the driving zone, but here the green is in a bowl atop a good-sized hill, and it would be in reach if only you could keep all the trees down the left side of the hole out of play ... but from a practical standpoint, if you're going for the green, you have to risk the possibility of hitting a tree and making a big number. Most people therefore play it conservatively. The only thing I have against the hole is that short hitters may not be able to get clear of the trees with two reasonable shots up the right ... that's pretty harsh! But it's an easy winner in this match.
The ninth hole is also an easy win, this time for Whitinsville. The 9th at Whitinsville was one of three holes Donald Ross chose to illustrate for George Thomas in his book, GOLF ARCHITECTURE IN AMERICA. The topography is spectacular, as you play your tee shot over the edge of a beautiful wetland pond. The landing area for the tee shot is at the end of a bluff about 200 yards from the green, which you approach diagonally ... if you can hit the tee shot far enough from the left tee, or far enough right from the back tee, you carry off the plateau and down the hill to a lower bit of fairway, which puts the green much closer. It's a great par-4.
The ninth at The Dunes is indeed a fine par-4, as Terry mentions ... almost as difficult a hole as Whitinsville's, because the raised green is very well defended by a bunker front right-center, and the fairway is none too wide. It's probably the best par-4 of the bunch, just too bad it's up against one of my favorite holes in golf here.
Someone earlier commented on "the sum being greater than the parts" and I do feel that's true of The Dunes. There are not many courses in America which present a better low-key atmosphere for golf, with the tiny clubhouse and the large patio and the walk-in-the-woods feel of the course. It feels like a private estate course, which in some respects is how it started. If ambiance had counted for anything in this match, it might have been enough to change my winner.
By the same token, it was interesting to see Anthony's take on the atmosphere at Whitinsville. I have always been an interloper there, but it does have the right "townie" atmosphere for a small town nine hole gem ... it's anything but posh, but the members are very proud of it. The key for me is that it is just a beautiful piece of land for golf, and there is a bit more elbow room for the routing to use the topography than at The Dunes, which I would guess is between 10 and 20 acres smaller, and sometimes feels a bit crowded together. [Actually, I need to do that comparison on Google Earth when I have time. Ross was a master at routing, so Whitinsville may be more compact than I realize.]
Bottom line, these are two wonderful nine hole courses ... by my count the two best America has to offer. In fact, there are not many courses in America among America's top 50 where the inferior nine would be better than either of these. Fans of one course or the other tend to discount the possibility that there could be another nine holer of equal merit, but they are dead wrong. I would encourage everyone who has the chance to seek out both courses.
I know I've promised to do an "architectural" comparison of the two courses also, and I will try to get to it later this week, assuming I have a decent internet connection in NZ [which is very iffy in the small town where we are working]. If I'm offline, I'll be busy trying to put the finishing touches on a course that might be better than these (!). I'll check back when I can.
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6 - Halve (W +1)
7 - Dunes (Even)
8 - Dunes (D +1)
9 - Whitinsville (Even, through 9: Winner Whitinsvile)
That makes them even at the turn. But Whitinsville wins in a playoff for having the best individual hole between both.
6-7 were the only ones I couldn't easily decide on, I was thinking about it for 3 days. I really like the par-3 at the Dunes. I liked how the tees are crammed into the ridge, and the shared aspect with 8. The alternative angle works better here than #2. But Whitinsville has a better green, so I just decided to call it a halve, since its matchplay.
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Let's talk more about the 8th hole at the Dunes Club. The tee box is elevated, and you have to hit a ~220 yard shot to a reasonably narrow target. You'd like to be on the left side of the fairway off the tee so that you can easily hit your second shot to the right side of the fairway. The second shot should be no more than ~190 yards and far enough right to avoid the massive trees that encroach the left side of the fairway. Then, you'll have just a short wedge shot slightly uphill to a blind green that's protected by mounds and subtle internal undulation. Distance control is important on the third, because a miss short could hit the mounding and go anywhere. Even though I don't love tight three-shot holes in general, every shot is fairly interesting, and the hole is just beautiful.
One feature that makes 8 all the more exciting is that you can try to hit a driver into the 5th fairway (left of the hole) and go for the green in two (where you're fare enough to the left that the trees up by the green are no longer in play. If you pursue this option, the tee shot is relatively forgiving, and then you might have a blind shot with a fairway wood into the green. I have no idea if the architect or club intended for this to be a viable option, but it certainly is. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this.
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I've been to both!... Plus the Sacred 9, to complete the trifecta!
Best in America first, then the winner can go for the World Championship.
Tom,
Has a decision been reached as to who wins the title of Best 9-holer in America? It seems Whitinsville has the edge... If so, has a date been set for a comparison of that course with Royal Worlington & Newmarket? I am very interested in hearing other opinions as to which course has more merit. Having played both several times, I think it could be a close and worthy match.
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Folks: Some of you have probably read previous threads touting my film "Donald Ross: Discovering the Legend." Tom Doak was very gracious in agreeing to be interviewed for the film. He is terrific throughout the movie. In particular, during the 'Ross in Massachusetts' section of the film, he waxes poetically on the nine holes at Whitinsville. That alone is worth the $20 cost of the DVD.
BTW, I have played there a number of times, and it is an absolutely wonderful track. Fun, easy to walk, and a true test for even the best of players. I tried to qualify for the MASS Open there a few years back, and with the greens running at least 11, there were many three putts to be had...including the 3rd green, which is quite large and deceptively difficult when missed in the wrong place.
I highly recommend folks put in on their bucket list
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Visual learner that I am, I'll help y'all weigh in on these two fine courses. Draw your own conclusions.
I played and shot W in 2013, then played and shot D in 2014. Here goes.
Overhead Looks
Dunes Club Overhead with Hole Numbers
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/dunesoh-1.jpg)
Whitinsville Golf Club Overhead with Hole Numbers
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/whitoh-1.jpg)
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Ronald,
The overhead shot of The Dunes Club is outdated and doesn't show the massive tree removal all over the course, the new greens for holes #1, 6, 7 and 8 and the expansion of the teeing areas for hole #6.
Looking at this old areal brings home the great changes Jim Urbina did recently at Dunes.
Ken
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Ken, I agree, but thing the course would be much better if we took down 1000 trees this winter. It would add width, light and wind everywhere and would give a player more options off the tee, particularly at #7.
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Ken, I agree, but thing the course would be much better if we took down 1000 trees this winter. It would add width, light and wind everywhere and would give a player more options off the tee, particularly at #7.
Terry,
I'm anxious to see the changes proposed for the 7th tee. The new green complex has greatly improved that hole and turned what I thought was the weakest hole on the course into a fun challenge.
Ken
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Ronald,
The overhead shot of The Dunes Club is outdated and doesn't show the massive tree removal all over the course, the new greens for holes #1, 6, 7 and 8 and the expansion of the teeing areas for hole #6.
Looking at this old areal brings home the great changes Jim Urbina did recently at Dunes.
Ken
Best we can do for now. I'm binging it as I type, to see if anything new comes up.
When I played the course this fall, I played the new greens, so my ground-level photos should be up to snuff.
Bing was no help. Lots of trees in their image, too.
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Hole #1-Dunes Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU1TEE.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU1FAIR1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU1FAIR2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU1GR1.jpg)
Hole #1-Whitinsville Golf Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH1TEE.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH1FAIR1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH1FAIR2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH1GR.jpg)
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Ronald,
Your pictures, surely, are pre tree removal?
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Hole #2-Dunes Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU2-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU2-2.jpg)
Hole #2-Whitinsville Golf Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH2-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH2-2.jpg)
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A brief interlude, brought to you by the thread author's earlier musing about comparing apples with apples.
par at W is 5-3-4-4-4-4-3-4-4 while par at D is 4-3-5-4-4-3-4-5-4
If I were attempting to match like holes, beginning with the short holes, I'd contrast W #2 and D #2, then W #7 and D #7 (which matches up perfectly.)
Moving on to the mid-range holes, I'd go with the following alignments: #5 W with #1 D (Both are demanding, two-shot holes), #6 W with #5 D (both have water hazards in front), #3 W with #7 D (both play to elevated greens), #4 W with #4 D (getting more difficult to draw comparisons) and #8 W with #9 D (now I'm at a total loss.)
Finally, with the long holes, #1 W with #3 D, and #9 W with #8 D. The reason for the latter is two-fold: W has but one three-shot hole. However, the most demanding hole at W is #9 and the likewise, #8 at D. That's my rationale.
If anyone who knows the two courses intimater than I, wishes to support me or take issue with my suggestions, the stage is yours.
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How much of the comparison between these courses boils down to maintenance preferences? I have played neither course but based on the photo tours Whittensville falls into my sweet-spot as far as maintenance style goes. The Dunes Club's more rustic/rougher maintenance style would not dissuade me from loving the course as an occasional flavor. However, I could easily see Whittensville's maintenance meld and parkland aesthetic as a course that if I lived down the street I could be happy at 4 or 5 days a week for a very long time.
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Hole #3-Dunes Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU3-1-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU3-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU3-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU3-4.jpg)
Hole #3-Whitinsville Golf Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH3-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH3-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH3-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH3-4.jpg)
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Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is.
Ciao
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Hole #4-Dunes Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU4-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU4-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU4-3.jpg)
Hole #4-Whitinsville Golf Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH4-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH4-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH4-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH4-4.jpg)
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How much of the comparison between these courses boils down to maintenance preferences? I have played neither course but based on the photo tours Whittensville falls into my sweet-spot as far as maintenance style goes. The Dunes Club's more rustic/rougher maintenance style would not dissuade me from loving the course as an occasional flavor. However, I could easily see Whittensville's maintenance meld and parkland aesthetic as a course that if I lived down the street I could be happy at 4 or 5 days a week for a very long time.
Jim, I think it has more to do with the location of the two clubs and how they fit into their natural landscapes than the maintenance style. The Dunes Club is amidst the sand dunes of southwest Michigan, whereas Whitinsville fits into the natural landscape of central Mass.
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How much of the comparison between these courses boils down to maintenance preferences? I have played neither course but based on the photo tours Whittensville falls into my sweet-spot as far as maintenance style goes. The Dunes Club's more rustic/rougher maintenance style would not dissuade me from loving the course as an occasional flavor. However, I could easily see Whittensville's maintenance meld and parkland aesthetic as a course that if I lived down the street I could be happy at 4 or 5 days a week for a very long time.
Jim, I think it has more to do with the location of the two clubs and how they fit into their natural landscapes than the maintenance style. The Dunes Club is amidst the sand dunes of southwest Michigan, whereas Whitinsville fits into the natural landscape of central Mass.
Trust me on this: if you lived down the street from either course and had access, you could be happy 4 to 5 decades of your life.
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Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is.
Ciao
Just going off the pics, these look like two underperformers.
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Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is.
Ciao
Just going off the pics, these look like two underperformers.
I wish that Sean would elaborate on what he perceives each club's "presentation" to be and whether he agrees with it.
I have absolutely no idea how you can arrive at this conclusion, Mark. Care to elaborate?
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Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is.
Ciao
Just going off the pics, these look like two underperformers.
Mark
I don't know if either aren't doing as well as they could because I don't know the intentions of the designers. But I can say not being a fan of green walls, I much prefer the presentation Whit to Dunes. That said, some other architectural elements such as the bunkering looks quite interesting at Dunes. Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.
Ciao
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Ron:
Just off the pics: looks like Dunes Club needs to lose a ton of trees. Like in your pic of 1 and 4 tees: why aren't those greens visible?
Whitinsville looks in better shape but it appears they need to widen their mowing lines. Some bunkers appear at least touching the fairway, which is a start, but more need to be rescued from rough. Maybe dig up some old aerials and see how it looked when Ross wasn't dead. And a question: what's with that tree in the crook of the dogleg on 4? ???
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Why must greens be visible from tees?
I suspect that the tree on #4 at Whitinsville is one of those that grew up and the membership just can't bear to take it down.
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Mark B.-
A good amount of fairway widening has occurred at W'ville and an equally significant amount of green expansion. Gil and the former superintendent were in possession of the original DR renderings of each hole, and used them as their guide when developing the W'ville master plan. By way of example, the fairway bunkers on #5 were once completely surrounded by rough. They are now completely surrounded by fairway. I belive that this was also the case with the bunker on #3.
As far as greens expansions are concerned, W'ville has been aggressive in this regard for the past decade. For example, much of the ride side of #1 green was ROUGH. It was lovingly transitioned from long grass to short grass, and then from short grass to putting surface. Anyone who has been above the hole on that right side knows how wise the decision was to recapture this area of the green.
Ron-
While much tree removal has occurred at W'ville, I believe that the REMAINING trees which have been most heavily debated are those to the left of the DZ on #1 and those on the inside of the dogleg on #4. While all agree that the removal of the white pines left of #1 would be a massive improvement, there is a worry that these trees provide real protection for the players on #7 green. As for #4, safety is not an issue. Rather, the elimination of specimen trees that provide (debateably) strategic interest is something that has been given a good deal of thought. On both of these holes, I believe that Gil has advocated for tree removal.
-Stephen
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Why must greens be visible from tees?
While I wouldn't say "must", I do think seeing a green on a dogleg can create the line of charm/line of instinct choice...its about temptation. Create a bowling alley effect and that temptation is likely removed...and thus may be created in another way or perhaps not at all. That said, perhaps the designer's vision was to have those choices limited. Thats okay too, but I prefer temptation.
Ciao
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Stephen,
Those are excellent revelations. Keep them coming. There is an enormous tree on the 17th hole at CCBuffalo that was not there when DJR designed the course. The membership opted, after the Forse review, to keep the tree. For pure restoration, it was a mistake, as the fairway could not be pushed back to the left as was originally built.
I understand the need to protect golfers on the seventh green. In my mind, no one should need to see the green on #1 W, whose view the pines currently obstruct.
Sean,
As has been posted earlier in the thread by a few Dunes denizens, a tree-removal plan is active at that club. In fact, when we were there in September, the crew was marking trunks that would soon be felled. There is a Pine Valley homage-element to Dunes and the elimination of too many trees might diminish this directive.
At Dunes, they utilize zero tee markers. You play a ball from whichever point you opt. In match play, the previous hole's winner makes the call. Take #3 tee as an example. A left-to-right player might be just fine playing from the far right of the tee deck. A right-to-left player would opt to go to the far left to play a right-handed draw (an impossibility from the right side.)
I never felt claustrophobic on any tee ball. When I get to the 7th hole, you will see a stand of trees up the left. The majority of these are coming down, to open up a tempting view of the green from the tee. 7 is the one potentially-driveable par four on the course, so this option will now become a reality.
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Ronald
Thanks. Save your pix and lets hope someone else does a tour next year. A before and after would be interesting.
Do you know if the tree removal is to represent the original design or if there is a change of philosophy?
Ciao
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Sean,
I don't know beyond playability what the intent is. I imagine the lot was always wooded until the early 1990s, when they carved out the course. They are not averse to eliminating famous/infamous trees; there is a tree on the 8th hole whose branches have been trimmed back to allow for playability. The course plays quite wide on most of the driving holes. #4, #5, #7-#9 are all played to very wide landing areas. Only #1 and #3 have any sense of unwanted intimacy, and not much at that (like middle school intimacy.)
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Hole #5-Dunes Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU5.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU5-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU5-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU5-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU5-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU5-5.jpg)
Hole #5-Whitinsville Golf Club
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH5.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH5-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH5-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH5-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH5-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH5-5.jpg)
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Why must greens be visible from tees?
While I wouldn't say "must", I do think seeing a green on a dogleg can create the line of charm/line of instinct choice...its about temptation. Create a bowling alley effect and that temptation is likely removed...and thus may be created in another way or perhaps not at all. That said, perhaps the designer's vision was to have those choices limited. Thats okay too, but I prefer temptation.
Ciao
I agree with this sentiment. The 7th hole at Dunes, which will shortly be put up, is a dogleg left par four hole with out of bounds to the right. Standing on any of the tees, one cannot see the green, because there is a huge stand of trees (maybe 400) on the left that blocks the view of the green. I'll acknowledge that some huge bombers that can also hit it dependably high can go over the dogleg, but those players are in the distinct minority. I've contended for years that we should cut down all but a handful of trees over there, in order to give players a view of the green and to invite the risk/reward analysis as they stand on the tee box. If you go for it and still hit one of the trees, you'll be playing out of an unforgiving sort of sandy hazard, but if you make it, you'll only have a simple pitch to the green. As it is now, 95% of the players on the tee have a single option: hit it 200 yards to the middle of the fairway toward the "barber's pole" and hit a mid-iron into the green. Doesn't mean it's a bad or an easy hole, it just means it lacks fun, visibility and options.
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Trees... am no defender of trees, but the tree on 4W is needed. This is not a difficult hole except for the green. It is not long. The tree can be driven over if long enough. It thus provides risk/reward and adds interest to the hole by forcing one to think how to attack the drive.
The worst tree at Whitinsville are those on 8 off the tee. Without the trees a long hitter could attack the bunker on the left. The tree forces one to lay out right. Discussed this with the gm/pro a few years back. He indicated the only reason it stays is to protect golfers on the tee at 9. Interesting perhaps that the tree on 4 makes one think and provides options, while the one on 8 takes away options.
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......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.
Ciao
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.
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......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.
Ciao
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.
Inconceivable
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Let's talk more about the 8th hole at the Dunes Club. The tee box is elevated, and you have to hit a ~220 yard shot to a reasonably narrow target. You'd like to be on the left side of the fairway off the tee so that you can easily hit your second shot to the right side of the fairway. The second shot should be no more than ~190 yards and far enough right to avoid the massive trees that encroach the left side of the fairway. Then, you'll have just a short wedge shot slightly uphill to a blind green that's protected by mounds and subtle internal undulation. Distance control is important on the third, because a miss short could hit the mounding and go anywhere. Even though I don't love tight three-shot holes in general, every shot is fairly interesting, and the hole is just beautiful.
I really love this description. As I read through it, I was expecting the conclusion to be that the hole was simply too demanding - yet you clearly like it a lot. Well done, sir.
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......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.
Ciao
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.
Inconceivable
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.
Ciao
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.
Inconceivable
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Colloquialisms may have something to do with it.
Which word?
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......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.
Ciao
Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride...When I don't agree with someone's assessment, I default to Vizzini.
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.
Inconceivable
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Colloquialisms may have something to do with it.
Which word?
Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride. When I disagree with an assessment, I default to Vizzini.
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......Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.
Ciao
Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride...When I don't agree with someone's assessment, I default to Vizzini.
Absolutely.
Dunes looks like it could induce a tantrum, not because it's bad, far from it, but because it's underperforming so badly.
Inconceivable
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Colloquialisms may have something to do with it.
Which word?
Paul...inside joke from The Princess Bride. When I disagree with an assessment, I default to Vizzini.
Thanks for the clarification.
Can't say I've seen/ can remember it.
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Hole #6-Dunes Club
I haven't made commentary yet, but I will break the vow on this hole for both courses. As with the 2nd at Dunes, this par three has two corridors. The difference could not be more pronounced. The Blackberry (or Raspberry, or Huckleberry, I forget which) tee is immediately behind 5 green (marked with an exploding "T") and makes the hole play as a pitch shot. New tee, trees removed, result awesome. The other tees, down to the left, make it a top-echelon par three in my estimation.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU6.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU6-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU6-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU6-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU6-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU6-5.jpg)
Hole #6-Whitinsville Golf Club
I had no idea that a brook crossed in front of this hole. One of those holes that, on first play, is everything over its latter half. Once played, you realize how important position off the tee is.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH6.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH6-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH6-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH6-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH6-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH6-5.jpg)
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Hole #7-Dunes Club
This hole also has two tees. They don't impact its play as much as #2 or #6. The other tee is left of this vantage point, hugging the tree line.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU7.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU7-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU7-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU7-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU7-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU7-5.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU7-6.jpg)
Hole #7-Whitinsville Golf Club
For some reason, my shots from the tee have disappeared. As a result, you have shots from green 1, over green 6, to green 7. Tees for 7 are directly behind green 6. At the end, you have a green profile from fairway 6.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH7.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH7-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH7-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH7-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH7-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH7-5.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH7-6.jpg)
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Mark B.-
A good amount of fairway widening has occurred at W'ville and an equally significant amount of green expansion. Gil and the former superintendent were in possession of the original DR renderings of each hole, and used them as their guide when developing the W'ville master plan. By way of example, the fairway bunkers on #5 were once completely surrounded by rough. They are now completely surrounded by fairway. I belive that this was also the case with the bunker on #3.
Stephen,
Thanks for this. Great to hear about the fairway restorations. Question: the widening of 5 fairway, has that occurred since the ground and aerial pictures in this thread? I look at this aerial comparison and see more restoration needed!
http://golfcoursehistories.com/Whit.html
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God almight, Mark, that's astonishing. Not just the random plantings of trees, but the pond along the golf course. Now, it's all marsh. How the heck did they do that?
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Mark B-
That is a great before/after image, and I agree that there is more fairway expansion that could occur. I would imagine that budgets at W'ville are tight, and I know that the progress which has been made there took place over a 10 year period. Slow and steady would seem to be the mantra, and I hope that their vigilance going forward matches what they have shown in the recent past.
Another great area of fairway AND green expansion is on the left side of both #7 green and #9 green. The expansion of fairway and green works in concert with the topography, allowing play to flirt with the left bunkers to gain running access to left or center pins. Truly fun shots to play, and shots that must have been rendered moot when long grass and smaller greens ruled the day.
To answer Ron's comment, I'm going to hazard a guess that the change in the water to the right of #9 from pond to brackish/bog has to do with the industry that spawned W'ville's creation. I believe that W'ville (town) is a mill town, and as such, several dams seem visible in aerial photographs. I wonder if these dams, stagnanted the water, and allowed for the gradual transition from open water (the pic from the 30's) to a more vegitatated bog (2013). Just a guess...
Finally, while I only have a few rounds at W'ville under my belt, I agree with the comment about the trees just off #8 teebox being the most noxious on the property. While some may argue for the safety they provide, they dictate the lines of play far more than in acceptable IMHO.
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Off the 7th tee at Whitinsville, you get this glow at the proper time of day:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/low-IMG_2699.jpg)
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Hole #8-Dunes Club
The most controversial/challenging hole at Dunes. Goes from wide open spaces to claustrophobia to blind approach. Also has the option of goin way left, into fairway #5, and coming in from that side (as you will see in the last image.)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU8.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU8-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU8-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU8-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU8-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU8-5.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU8-6.jpg)
Hole #8-Whitinsville Golf Club
Also a challenging/controversial hole, also due to the constriction-by-tree approach. When I was there, I saw some collegiate golfers take three metals and rope-hook them greenside. The driveability of the hole exists, but not in a direct line to the green. I've lost my images from the tee, so we'll need donations from the ephemera or a reliance on the overhead (which I will modify for description.)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH8.jpg)
Here is the same overhead, with three arrows. The left one indicates the noxious, safety tree that pushes all play to the right. Punishes the left-to-right player. The middle arrow is the short bunker seen from the first fairway. The right arrow is the far fairway bunker, also seen in the image below from the first fairway. The dashed line offers a conservative route. The farther left, the longer the marsh carry. If you can right-to-left on command, you'll love this tee ball.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH8_lines.jpg)
This image is from the first fairway, looking across hole 7, to the 8th drive zone and run uphill to the green. The left arrow marks the tee deck. The middle arrow marks the short fairway bunker. The right arrow marks the far fairway bunker.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH8-1lines.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH8-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH8-3.jpg)
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(http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag284/Cliff_Hamm/IMG_1301_zps32e0f211.jpg)
Not the best picture of 8 but hopefully it helps. Tee is elevated and this is taken from the bottom of the hill in front of the tee.
I might add that in looking at the old picture these trees were not there. The one on four appears to be though. (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Hamm/media/IMG_1301_zps32e0f211.jpg.html)
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Ronald
Thanks. Save your pix and lets hope someone else does a tour next year. A before and after would be interesting.
Do you know if the tree removal is to represent the original design or if there is a change of philosophy?
Ciao
When The Dunes Club was built, Mr. Keiser used to say he liked to preserve trees ... after all, his business was Recycled Paper Greetings. He has come around to the idea that trees are not a great feature of golf courses slowly but surely over the years.
He had come so far that his original concept at Sand Valley was to take down 100% of the trees, but cooler heads have prevailed there.
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Keiser has told me that he could imagine Dunes Club without ANY trees, but methinks he was spouting some hyperbole. He has come a long way. Two summers ago, I told him that a bunch of us were calling the area around the third green "Santa's Village" because of the abundance of pine and spruce. "Oh no," he exclaimed, "they're all coming down." At the end of the season, the chainsaws were humming.
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Keiser has told me that he could imagine Dunes Club without ANY trees, but methinks he was spouting some hyperbole. He has come a long way. Two summers ago, I told him that a bunch of us were calling the area around the third green "Santa's Village" because of the abundance of pine and spruce. "Oh no," he exclaimed, "they're all coming down." At the end of the season, the chainsaws were humming.
There were trees around the third green? Where?
Judge Terry, what's the story behind the branch on #8 that came down?
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About twenty spruces were behind the green and between the left side of the green and the 4th tee
The tree on 8 ( actually two) are about 100 from the green and the location renders 75% of the fairway virtually useless. The thought was the trees would prevent a big hitter from getting on in two, but they're just as frustrating to the people trying to get home in regulation. The big hitters now just bomb it to the 5th fairway where they have a look at the left part of the green. It's really become a bit of a joke.
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Hole #9-Dunes Club
This hole has a fairly easy drive (perhaps not apparent in the photos) owing to the voracious nature of that greenfront bunker. If it doesn't get you, it's in-law behind the green will. And the green is really tough to putt. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU9.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU9-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU9-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU9-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/DU9-4.jpg)
Hole #9-Whitinsville Golf Club
It's God's grace that this is the final hole at Whitinsville. If it came anywhere else, triage would delay play. I guess if you carry the ball a controllable 290, you can look to the right of the slope. If not, you shouldn't.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH9.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH9-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH9-2.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH9-3.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH9-4.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/WHVDU/WH9-5.jpg)
This brings my task to a close. I don't know that I would have undertaken it if the courses had not been 9 holes in span, or if the thread-starter hadn't been a well-thought of guy in this realm. Arking the holes can be tedious if we're dealing with 36. I'll leave that to another.
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Ronald
Thanks. Save your pix and lets hope someone else does a tour next year. A before and after would be interesting.
Do you know if the tree removal is to represent the original design or if there is a change of philosophy?
Ciao
When The Dunes Club was built, Mr. Keiser used to say he liked to preserve trees ... after all, his business was Recycled Paper Greetings. He has come around to the idea that trees are not a great feature of golf courses slowly but surely over the years.
He had come so far that his original concept at Sand Valley was to take down 100% of the trees, but cooler heads have prevailed there.
Tom
Thanks. Well if its trees he likes he has plenty of em'...imo they are the most prominent feature of the layout in the pix. Its good to hear presumably cool trees will be kept...there must be some excellent specimens among the green walls.
Ronald - thanks for the pix.
Ciao