Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on August 06, 2014, 06:07:02 PM
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Brora, Pennard, St Enodoc, Carnoustie Burnside, Welshpool and Perranporth! Why isn't James Braid acknowledged as one of the great archies? Give the guy some good land and he produced great stuff in spades.
I went back to Perranporth (again) recently and was still flabbergasted at the outrageous nature of the design. I now see where RTJ got his ideas for The Cashen, only Braid didn't have to push dirt about. The conditions were near perfect (3-4 more days of sun and no rain will see Perranporth at its absolute best) with a normal southwesterly wind. Last year the course was absolutely burned out with the wind out of the east - making for a crazy day of golf. Perranporth makes a ton of sense with a normal wind, put all those short par 4s downwind (east wind) and all hell can break loose. An old friend who was injured walked the course with me and barely uttered a word about the design the whole way round. His eyes told me all that I needed to know.
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Perranporth is the first course at which I ever bought a course guide. Don't lament too much over me being raked, the total cost for a guide and weekend game was £28.50. Notice the hole yardages and pars, then forget them. Why? The course is wild and one needs to play by his wits.
#1
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#1 last year - I drove the green! Also note how much extra space the photo depicts, it is needed in these conditions!
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Approach.
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Onto the crazy 2nd, but in truth no more crazy than about half dozen other holes. On the second shot the direct line to the green is left of the markers, but how much carry is there? For that matter, how far does one hit a lay-up?
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Looking back toward the teeish.
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If one is fortunate he will emerge from the bumps with a ball in play. The green swings madly left.
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You are not hallucinating. This is the 3rd. It looks a doddle to drive to the upper flats....
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...but all concenetration should be on trying to leave this for an approach...its the best most can hope for.
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We haven't quite stopped climbing. Where is the 4th and how in the hell is one meant to hit the green? We have gone from all out smash mouth golf to the ultimate in pussy footing. This ball ache one-shotter is probably best played as a ball ache two-shotter.
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With a hairy dune right and steep drop off to more hair left, there is precious little room to execute. This view is from online wih the ladies tee.
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The green from the 5th tee shows fairway back to the ladies tee left. The men's tee is somewhere below the hill!
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You want views?
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Now then, time to consult the guide. Hhhmm, par 5 oer the top. This is big golf! Photo from behind the green.
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The short 6th. Don't be short, don't be long, don't be left. Be right. Photo from behind the green.
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Photo from right of the green.
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Guide consultation #2, the 7th is a ball donation hole. The bell tells the story. This photo is looking back to the tee.
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Behind the green.
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The 8th is the first of four drivable par 4s. Playing in the same direction as the first, the green is very difficult to hold.
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9 plays back to the house - sort of. We strolled down the 8th, now we must clamber up the 9th. The fairway curiously steers to the right - away from the prime angle of approach. A good drive leaves an heroic approach.
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Looking back to the tee.
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Much more sedate, the blind 10th runs past the house and offers a opportunity to ask the many questions one must surely have. First of which would be to enquire as to if it is possible for a Pimms to be delivered to the 11th tee.
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Many of the greens are fairly straight-forward with some slope, but a few greens have interesting shaping shy of the surfaces. Below is a look at the 10th green.
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What followed was another long par 5. After hitting my drive I did wait for the Pimms, but the service in England is not renown for its promptness. Feeling disappointed and thirsty, I trudged onward and as it turned out upward. The green is on a high shelf making it difficult to hold.
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Taken from the 12th tee.
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Much like North Wales' O.L and L.O, the 12 & 13th at Perranporth are a marvel to behold. Totalling less than 600 yards and 8 in par, its a job just to read the guide let alone decide on a strategy.
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#13
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Deja vu - the rear of the green is a mirror image to the front of the green. That can only mean one thing - low on the ends and high in the middle! Beau Desert anyone?
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Definitive proof of Perranporth's provenance.
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Yet another plateau green. The 14th from the back of the green.
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At 15 we get a wide open fairway, though it doesn't appear so from the tee. Essentially, the 15th and 10th (to the left) are combined fairways. The hole isn't great, but its a welcome relief at a perfect time in the back nine. The lone par 3 on the back nine caps off a very good set. Playing downhill and in firm conditions, one must figure a landing spot and hope for the best.
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Taken from the back tee on #17. The 6th green is the main subject. To the left is the third fairway and behind the 6th green is the 3rd green. One gets a better sense of how steeply uphill the long par 3 4th is! The fairway feeding down from the right is #5.
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#17 features a blind drive, but a sensible one with a decent landing zone. The green runs left to right and is very good. The 18th is the final short par 4 and its a cracker. The plateau green makes it difficult to really go for the green in one, but in any case one wants to leave an approach as much into the wind as possible.
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Knowing the obligatory caravan site is just off the right side of the fairway, many folks must end up pin-highish left.
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Okay, much like the hilltop courses I really enjoy, Perranporth is just too wild to be given serious consideration for greatness. What it lacks in that department is made up for in spades with shot after shot excitement. I mentioned Ballybunion's Cashen course, the two are quite similar, but Perranporth is much better and a more sensible walk. Somehow, these classic archies were able to see holes and offer a walk that while may be strenuous, is not crazy. I am quite surprised that there aren't more par 3s on the course. The extreme terrain seems to be calling for them, but I guess it is not very satisfactory to have string of short holes. The Ladies card offers five to the Men's three. The count is the same for the par 5s. Indeed, the Ladies card looks very interesting and some of the tees are quite tempting to have a go.
My first visit to Perranporth was in 1997 (not long before I moved to England) on a word of mouth visit recommended by a mate who played it on a whim while on holiday. He described Perranporth as a clifftop course, typical English understatement. Of course, Steel's book missed Perranporth! Rather oddly, so did Pennink's. Anyway, I was just as stunned this time as any previous visits. Much time was spent in a daze wandering around like a lost child while his ice cream melts. Perranporth is a tough course to remember the details, but that certainly isn't the case for its spirit. I could play Perranporth tomorrow and have a wonderful sense of adventure - its that magical. 2014
Ciao
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Sean,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears much more playable and walkable for the average player than the Cashen (although that's not saying much!).
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I think the lack of kudos for Braid is because of courses like Perranporth. It's just not very good. Lovely day, nice walk, but some of the holes are schizophrenic. And not in a charming quirky sort of way, just lousy golf that you may as well have drunk 10 pints before playing.
Among the greats you mention, he seems to have done quite a lot of very average courses. Every county seems to have Braid courses and most aren't ones that attract golfers from a neighbouring county, let alone future afield.
A broken clock gets it right twice a day.
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I tend to rather like the limited work of Braid's I've experienced first hand. That said, I'll suggest it's "holiday golf" (and nothing wrong with that), so far removed from pencil and card thinking in some cases that it doesn't agree with many a modern golfer. But I'd be more than happy to spend a day in the sunshine at Peranporth. Looks like a lot of fun. I'm even personally a fan of the first photo showing the burnt conditions from last year, but then I do love courses at lightening pace.
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Thanks so much for these pre Buda updates and pictures. I wish my plane left tomorrow.
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Thanks so much for these pre Buda updates and pictures. I wish my plane left tomorrow.
Lynn, ooooh, pick your 4somes partner very carefully at Perranporth. A short hitting fairway finder may serve you well :D
Ryan
I fear our tastes in architecture are very different. First it was St Enodoc's 10th and now its all 18 at Perranporth. What next, the Dell? You are a hard task master 8)
Ciao
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I think the lack of kudos for Braid is because of courses like Perranporth. It's just not very good. Lovely day, nice walk, but some of the holes are schizophrenic. And not in a charming quirky sort of way, just lousy golf that you may as well have drunk 10 pints before playing.
Among the greats you mention, he seems to have done quite a lot of very average courses. Every county seems to have Braid courses and most aren't ones that attract golfers from a neighbouring county, let alone future afield.
A broken clock gets it right twice a day.
I couldn't disagree more.
Many, many fo my favorite courses were designed by Braid (for awhile there I thought he got too much credit as he couldn't have been very involved in many of the prolific Number of courses he is credited with)
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Thanks so much for these pre Buda updates and pictures. I wish my plane left tomorrow.
Lynn, ooooh, pick your 4somes partner very carefully at Perranporth. A short hitting fairway finder may serve you well :D
Ryan
I fear our tastes in architecture are very different. First it was St Enodoc's 10th and now its all 18 at Perranporth. What next, the Dell? You are a hard task master 8)
Ciao
Ciao
"A short hitting fairway finder." That is me!
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Thanks so much for these pre Buda updates and pictures. I wish my plane left tomorrow.
Lynn, ooooh, pick your 4somes partner very carefully at Perranporth. A short hitting fairway finder may serve you well :D
Ryan
I fear our tastes in architecture are very different. First it was St Enodoc's 10th and now its all 18 at Perranporth. What next, the Dell? You are a hard task master 8)
Ciao
Ciao
"A short hitting fairway finder." That is me!
Lynn, oh, find a good chipper/putter then :D
Ciao
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I agree that Mr Braid is in my mind one of the most underrated archies.
Saunton is superb as is St Enodoc as is Pennard, Brora and others I do not feel obliged recall to justify this statement.
Sean you take the gentlemens tack when observing you simply disagree. I do not see a place for such a dismissive attitude of careless contempt when Ryan tosses out generalities and provides little specific in what is deficient in Mr Braid's body of work. Borders on negligent rudeness
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I agree that Mr Braid is in my mind one of the most underrated archies.
Saunton is superb as is St Enodoc as is Pennard, Brora and others I do not feel obliged recall to justify this statement.
Sean you take the gentlemens tack when observing you simply disagree. I do not see a place for such a dismissive attitude of careless contempt when Ryan tosses out generalities and provides little specific in what is deficient in Mr Braid's body of work. Borders on negligent rudeness
"negligent rudeness" is a great call, Wardo.
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I agree that Mr Braid is in my mind one of the most underrated archies.
Saunton is superb as is St Enodoc as is Pennard, Brora and others I do not feel obliged recall to justify this statement.
Sean you take the gentlemens tack when observing you simply disagree. I do not see a place for such a dismissive attitude of careless contempt when Ryan tosses out generalities and provides little specific in what is deficient in Mr Braid's body of work. Borders on negligent rudeness
Chez Wardo
Well, Braid was involved in a lot mundane design. That was the nature of the beast when working on a budget and often having to use existing holes or add to them. Braid didn't get much high profile work (the Oxbridge set unsurprisingly got most of this work), Carnoustie and Gleneagles probably being the most famous, maybe Wallasey as well. My point was more that given good land and/or time and money, Braid's work stacks up with the best of the era. I can understand if folks don't like the more extreme examples of his work, but there is no doubting they are packed with character and inventiveness - elements sorely lacking in a lot of big name courses.
Ciao
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I'm a Perranporth fan. Not sure I could play it every day though, but several times a month would be quite nice. I can understand however, how if you first played it in vile conditions or were playing terribly and lost quite a few balls you could develop a real 'hate complex' about the course. I have a couple of golf friends who feel that way and will not return. I have more golf friends though who feel the opposite way and just adore the course and always speak of it with glowing compliments. Marmite?
I've just referred back to my course planner of Perranporth - only 11 bunkers on the course.
As to James Braid, I cannot help but wonder, hypothetical though, what other architects of the same generation would have come up with given some of the land he had to use. Great imagination. Not just Perranporth but the likes Welshpool and other 'querkies' elsewhere and boy did he get around the UK a bit. I believe Harry Vardon had an exhibition contract with one of the railways companies. Did Braid also at one time I wonder? Some top level 'upgrades' by JB as well what with the likes of Carnoustie and Royal Aberdeen.
As to the photos in the thread, they're super Sean. Well done. I love the angles of many of them. Nice line about the par-3 4th being probably best played as a two-shotter. Like it. There are a few more par-3's around that this playing strategy would be well followed on. Nice line about the tiny/evil par-3 6th too - "Don't be short, don't be long, don't be left. Be right."
As an aside about par-3's, I saw some analysis recently of a couple of men's amateur competitions and how many shots handicap players averaged over their handicaps on par-5's par-4's and par-3's. Interestingly, it certainly surprised me, the biggest ratio of over-handicap shots was on the par-3's. Not so surprising I guess if the par-3's are like the 4th and 6th holes at Perranporth! :)
atb
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I agree that Mr Braid is in my mind one of the most underrated archies.
Saunton is superb as is St Enodoc as is Pennard, Brora and others I do not feel obliged recall to justify this statement.
Sean you take the gentlemens tack when observing you simply disagree. I do not see a place for such a dismissive attitude of careless contempt when Ryan tosses out generalities and provides little specific in what is deficient in Mr Braid's body of work. Borders on negligent rudeness
Braid's best courses are as good as anywhere. He has however done dozens you've never played or would want to play. I speak as I find.
Just because the courses are old, and the designer is long since dead, it shouldn't restrict someone from giving an opinion. I didn't see you chiming in to reign in the forthright views over Tom Fazio'a credentials - he's done a few good ones as well but gets a lot worse than Braid got from me, without any of your pious, faux consternation.
As for negligence, who designed Saunton?
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Looks anything but boring. Hate missing out on Buda this year.
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John, we hate you missing out on BUDA too!
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Ryan,
When Mr. Fazio builds even one course that captivates me like Brora, Pennard, Wallasey, Boat of Garten, St. Enodoc, Fortrose and Rosemarkie, Saunton, or Murcar, I will gladly seek out more of his work.
No doubt Braid may have been credited with many courses that may well be considered mundane (I haven't played any but I'll certainly take your word for it)
he strikes me a s someone who made incredible use of the given time and land he was afforded at each site.
I'm one who rarely even knows the architect of a course in adavance, and I'm always shocked at how often James Braid is the architect of record or had a hand in at a course I play and love or really like.
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You can say many things about Perranporth, but not that you will be bored or lack great views.
A course everyone needs to have played once in his life, then you can decide if you want to come back fro more!
PS. Here is an extensive photo tour I made of the course last month http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/England/Perranporth/ (http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/England/Perranporth/)
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For those who know Braid better than I, perhaps you could clarify if his reputation for routing and advising but spending less time with the detail is justified?
If this is the case then I suspect his modern day equivalent is Eddie Hackett.
Give them a good piece of land and they produce excellent work (because their routings are good). Give them a poorer piece of land and the bones are there but sometimes the detail can be less than inspiring. In Hackett's case, this was often because of budget and because the final construction was homemade so depended on the skill of the construction crew. Was the same true with Braid?
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Awesome pics Sean. That course looks like a pretty fun, you keep on finding hidden gems.
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Time for a cross-reference to the recent interview with John Moreton, author of“The Golf Courses of James Braid” and "James Braid and his Four Hundred Golf Courses" - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-with-john-moreton/
atb
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For those who know Braid better than I, perhaps you could clarify if his reputation for routing and advising but spending less time with the detail is justified?
If this is the case then I suspect his modern day equivalent is Eddie Hackett.
Give them a good piece of land and they produce excellent work (because their routings are good). Give them a poorer piece of land and the bones are there but sometimes the detail can be less than inspiring. In Hackett's case, this was often because of budget and because the final construction was homemade so depended on the skill of the construction crew. Was the same true with Braid?
Ally
A good question.
Braid was prolific to say the least. His best are incredibly good. No argument from me there.
He also has his name to quite a lot of mundane, run of the mill. It can be argued that you should be judged on the full body of work. I love Brora more than I can express. Unlike most in this thread I have played a lot that are not headliners. Now you can praise Braid to the hilltops for the highlights, but to do so, is to selectively disregard a good deal of what I will diplomatically describe as not great.
And for our so called officiando's, Saunton is the work of Herbert Fowler. Who doesn't get anything like enough credit for his achievements.
Unless of course there is a Braid course in the Braunton burrows that I've somehow missed.
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Ally,
It just seems to me that in Braid's time there was so little equipment to use in building the course that the result very much depended on the land you were given.
According to Darwin's biography of him, his mind was superb. He could walk a piece of property, then go home and send back detailed plans for the golf course after he had time to draw them up.
I think Ryan is missing the boat in his criticisms, because many properties could not be that great for golf.
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Seems to me as if we want it both ways.
Braid's best were down to his ingenuity. The 75% that were unremarkable, were down to the land he had to work with.
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I am certainly no expert on Braid, but it is my impression he was mainly an archie for the "lower golfing classes". There was a definite class division back in 1900 to whenever. It is no surprise that Colt, Fowler, Simpson and to a lesser degree Dr Mac are in the main associated with what were at the time wealthier clubs. The golfing professionals in the main catered to less ambitious or not as highly placed clubs. To me, this goes a long way to explaining Braid's role in architecture. Once in a while Braid nabbed what we would today consider a prime commission. In a way Ryan is right, when we look at what we think is in the ground left by Braid, much of it is uninspiring work. Compared to Colt for instance, who was also prolific, Braid's body of work fails to measure up. That said, I think back in the day it was more important than today to work on good golfing land. Colt had a lot of great commissions from which he produced some of the seminal works of architecture. That said, there is definitely a whimsical side of Braid that Colt never came close to matching because Colt was far more measured in his approach which also means he likely didn't chase many jobs on goofy land. At the end of the day, we can compare Braid to other archies, but its a bit unreasonable to suggest Braid's body of work should measure up to the Oxbridge set when he often didn't get the land or budget to produce a fine course. I think this is why its reasonable to talk about his best work. Afterall, only wing nuts like me talk about Colt's less grand designs (but every bit as architecturally sound) and even I can see that Colt ran out of ideas (impossible not to when we consider how much work the man did). Most folks, even on this site, don't give these designs a second thought, so why worry about comparing total bodies of work? Lets be thankful that the Colts of design didn't get all these odd ball jobs because I think architecture would be worse off today if that were the case.
Ciao
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I was getting my thoughts together to post something very similar to what Sean just said. Colt and Fowler were 'gentlemen' and the type of architect who would appeal to more affluent clubs. Braid would have been considered 'trade' and his services sought by clubs with less to spend. He seems to have spent a couple of days at most at each commission, submitted a plan, and then moved onto the next. It is no wonder that some of his work was fairly routine. That he achieved the heights that he did working in this journeyman fashion is remarkable.
MacKenzie is an interesting half-way house. Much of his work in northern England just before and after the Great War doesn't exactly have the mark of greatness about it. Clearly he too could churn out OK stuff for a reasonable day rate if the land was not inspiring.
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Just to add my 2p worth.
While agreeing with Sean and Duncan I think the recent book disappoints in that it could have gone further and make clearer which of Braids courses were
Built with Carter’s seed co
Built with Strutt and Co
Built by an other/local greenkeeper.
Clearly he had a strong relationship with the first two at various times and they would have understood what he wanted and implemented those wishes. What distinguishes him from Hackett are his greens. He wasn’t on site to sculpt them but he chose the sites beautifully. ON the St Enedoc Thread there’s the comment they are all circular but although I haven’t played there, that would be typical. But the key thing is that was only revealed by an aerial analysis and from Sean’s description they don’t lack interest. Some times his greens are built up, more often they are in a place of interest or on a particularly interesting slope (this might be a “characteristic”). They are not that often spectacular but they still play beautifully all these years later. I think he chose where to place his green pins most carefully. He was a fast worker but he got results.
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Not really criticising one side and praising another, but in a different profession I have heard it said that an expert can do for £10 what anyone can do for £100. Would the lesser, ie 'cheap-n-quick', courses within Braids overall large portfolio fit into this scenario? And just because someone has the ability to work quickly doesn't mean they are not thoughtful and thorough. Near silk purses and near sows ears? Just musing.
atb
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If folks really look at the individual merits of the holes its quite surprising how good so many holes are. There really isn't anything close to a dud in the lot. The real issue comes down to the terrain. Either folks accept their will be some wild stuff and that this helps in defining what Perranporth is in positive way, or they write off what is essentially good architecture. I am especially impressed with the 3s and 5s. Every hole is very good and there is some great variety displayed amongst the lot. Perranporth is in the same mould as Rosapenna Sandy Hills and Ballybunion Cashen, but it I think it is considerably better than either. Perranporth is holiday golf, but an exceptional example of such. I will post the card at the top of the original post, it makes for interesting reading.
Ciao
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Ally
i think you have it about right. With Braid it was largely about the routing. He could produce a terrific course with an interesting bit of land, while on more mundane sites his work was well, workmanlike and solid I suppose, and maybe lacked the artistic flair that Colt or MacKenzie had with their greens/features although having said that he got into natural looking bunkers as well at one point. There's no doubt in my mind from the little I've seen of MacKenzies that Braids routings have stood up better with time.
I don't think Braids working methods were that far apart from the Oxbridge crew in that a lot depended on who did his construction. Unlike the other guys I suspect that once he did his layout, that was it, and they probably didn't see him again until perhaps the exhibition game to open the course. Gleneagles was an exception to that.
Sean/Duncan
I think you're wrong with regards the level of commissions that Braid got. For sure he had a different background and social standing to Colt etc however he did play golf with all the politicians and great and the good at Walton Heath who were flattered to be in his company. Likewise got an awful lot of work from a lot of prestigious clubs/courses, at least up in Scotland. For instance;
Gleneagles
Carnoustie
Troon
Prestwick
Turnberry
Glasgow
Pollok
Panmure
Niall
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I must apologize for associating Braid with Saunton. It is chronic habit as I found that I asked Tom MacWood to clarify a Braid/Saunton association on a thread years ago.
I do not apologize for asking Ryan to back up his generalized statements with specifics. I belong to a Fazio course and I enjoy some of his work but I deplore his arrogance. I really haven't played enough of his courses to comment regarding his body of work. But I submit it is a different ability that allows Mr Fazio to demand and receive comparatively unlimited dollars to recast an entire landscape to fit his talented eye as compared to James Braid making something out of whatever he is given with very few dollars.
As for pious I reserve that demeanor for a higher authority than a gca and it is a preferable attitude to flippant unsupported criticism in any case. But really I think Ryan is criticizing those on this site who do reserve a reverence for those designers who respect the land and work with what they have rather than Braid so much.
In any case the thread has revealed that Braid has a diverse body of work for very good reasons and that has pretty much superceded whether Braid's lesser body of work drags him down from the accomplished level.
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I must apologize for associating Braid with Saunton. It is chronic habit as I found that I asked Tom MacWood to clarify a Braid/Saunton association on a thread years ago.
I do not apologize for asking Ryan to back up his generalized statements with specifics. I belong to a Fazio course and I enjoy some of his work but I deplore his arrogance. I really haven't played enough of his courses to comment regarding his body of work. But I submit it is a different ability that allows Mr Fazio to demand and receive comparatively unlimited dollars to recast an entire landscape to fit his talented eye as compared to James Braid making something out of whatever he is given with very few dollars.
As for pious I reserve that demeanor for a higher authority than a gca and it is a preferable attitude to flippant unsupported criticism in any case. But really I think Ryan is criticizing those on this site who do reserve a reverence for those designers who respect the land and work with what they have rather than Braid so much.
In any case the thread has revealed that Braid has a diverse body of work for very good reasons and that has pretty much superceded whether Braid's lesser body of work drags him down from the accomplished level.
To summarise, you piped in with descriptions of carelessness, and negligence and then embarrassed yourself by crediting Braid with Saunton. You've played virtually no Braid courses, including the one in question. Yet you loftily wheel out platitudes about 'respecting the land.'
On the sheer volume of courses he's credited with in a four or five year span, he would've barely seen the land let alone 'respected it'. Remove all the phoney nostalgia and reverence and judged on the courses, he did some great, many very good, but a huge number you wouldn't cross the road to play. But, hey, why let this get in the way of saying what you think everyone wants to hear.
The old guys worked with what they had. It's one of these silly statements like 'taking one shot at a time'. No shit. If Braid had budget and machinery, you can bet he would have spent it rather than dashing to do a new course every fortnight. Similarly if Fazio was on site for only two days, he'd post them his routing a month later and leave them to get on with it.
As for Perranporth, I found to be a horrible experience in the wind. A good links course is enhanced by wind, Perranporth, I found miserable and offered very little in terns of achievable shots/routes. I found that it was impossible to bounce the ball in and it made pro, decent amateur and hacker all hopeless equals. It asks too many questions to which there is no answer and removes skill or even any hope of luck. Fun if you like crazy, I suppose.
May be a perverse view to you, albeit you've never played it, but I assure you it very much divides opinion in this part of the world.
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MacKenzie is an interesting half-way house. Much of his work in northern England just before and after the Great War doesn't exactly have the mark of greatness about it. Clearly he too could churn out OK stuff for a reasonable day rate if the land was not inspiring.
Duncan:
I am sure you know this, but it was an entirely different business before 1920 and after that date. Prior to 1920 most existing clubs did not take golf architecture too seriously -- they were only interested in paying an architect to come in for a day or two to make recommendations, which they would then build (or not) as they had time and money. That was the business environment in which MacKenzie, Braid, and others learned the trade -- and most of their work was remodeling existing courses.
After 1920, it was seen as a more serious endeavour, and new course clients obviously wanted more than a day's visit. Still, architects like Braid and MacKenzie had learned to work fast by necessity, and had delivered good results that way, so they were not inclined to change their m.o. MacKenzie's famous visit to Australia included advising something like 17 clubs in a six-week time period! I suppose he could have spent all that time at Royal Melbourne, but they were years away from making some of his planned changes -- and it couldn't have turned out much better, regardless.
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Niall
I mentioned the biggies of Gleneagles and Carnoustie. The others are tid bit commissions - no? You couldn't really say Braid was the man at Troon, Prestwick or Turnberry. Which is part of my point. Braid got very few proper big time commissions. I think a major reason for this was his background as a professional player; not only socially, but also because the man spent a lot of time playing tournament/exhibition golf and tending to his members. Its incredible he had his hand in architecture as much as he did. It is undeniable the Oxbridge crew cleaned up compared to the pro crew in terms of juicy gigs. I am only saying that it seems to me when Braid was given a good opportunity he produced on par with the Oxbridge crew.
Tom
I think Colt was taking architecture very seriously well prior to 1920. I also think Colt was sought after by the Oxbridge set to some degree as "one of their own".
Ryan
Practically every links I know suffers in true wind simply due to lack of width. So, I would take issue with your idea of a good links because very few exist using that definition. Where I would agree is P'porth has several holes which offer little respite for mistakes. That is the damnation of raw links of this nature. It is also its glory. Is it horrible? P'porth sure isn't great, but its miles from horrible. Is it a course I would want to play every week? Hell no - there are few links I would want to play every week. But then I would much rather play P'porth than a great many supposedly great links because at least I get a laugh out of the course, unlike say Troon, or Lytham or countless others which offer very little originality or lasting intererest. I fear we look for different things in architecture - to each is own.
Ciao
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Sean
I'm referring to approach shots rather than off the tee.
In the wind, most links courses I like give an option or a modicum of chance for only a very good shot. At Perranporth, too many approach shots, good bad ugly and indifferent end up in the same place. You can't run it in. You cant fly it in. So much so that you may as well not hit it, rather walk down and place it in the inevitable spot.
Like you say, each to his own.
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Ryan
That sure wasn't my experience this week. The course played short and not yet too keen to cause chaos. I don't have to imagine what its like in 20mph wind because I saw that last year and in some of the most keen conditions I have ever seen. For the most part, it wasn't much fun simply because the course isn't big enough for those conditions. One has to play safety golf all the time. I think there are way too many cool holes and shots to dismiss P'porth so emphatically. There is plenty of strategy, its just that there is plenty of penal golf as well. At least the course is short enough to manage a bit more.
Ciao
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Ryan,
I played Perranporth in a 20 mph wind with gusts to 30,in periodic sleet and occasional rain.
I loved it- had an absolute blast.
Can't comment if it would've been better without wind-but nearly every links I've played in little to no wind I've found it to be a poorer experience.
I'm sure Braid has some clunkers as no doubt he rarely was around for construction and an average piece of land was unlikely to yield spectacular results. So be it-
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Niall
I mentioned the biggies of Gleneagles and Carnoustie. The others are tid bit commissions - no? You couldn't really say Braid was the man at Troon, Prestwick or Turnberry. Which is part of my point. Braid got very few proper big time commissions. I think a major reason for this was his background as a professional player; not only socially, but also because the man spent a lot of time playing tournament/exhibition golf and tending to his members. Its incredible he had his hand in architecture as much as he did. It is undeniable the Oxbridge crew cleaned up compared to the pro crew in terms of juicy gigs. I am only saying that it seems to me when Braid was given a good opportunity he produced on par with the Oxbridge crew.
Sean,
A lot of those courses got changed almost on a yearly basis with various architects brought in. Of the ones I listed;
Gleneagles - it's in the very first Minutes of the company that they wanted Braid to do the design, and that was before Hutchison was appointed as Director of Golf. MacKenzie claims he saw the site first but still didn't get the gig.
Carnoustie - Allan Robertson, Old Tom Morris, Willie Park and Tom Simpson worked at Carnoustie but it's known as a Braid course and it was Braid who got asked back to make changes before and after Simpson.
Troon - Braid did substantial redesign work including putting in 80 bunkers ahead of the Open in 1923. I'd certainly call that a significant instruction.
Turnberry - Braid designed the second course in 1921
Glasgow - redesign of Killermont consisting relocating a few greens and an overhaul of the bunkering system. Until Dave Thomas's input in recent years, this was pretty well the only work done on Old Tom's second last design.
Pollok - along with Glasgow GC Pollock is known as one of the top clubs in the West of Scotland. Braid worked there over the same timespan as MacKenzie with the club taking his advice over MacKenzies in relation to 1st and 18th holes.
Panmure - the posh club of Dundee. Braid made changes to the course in 1922. Not sure who extensive those changes were but the point is that they used Braid and not Colt or Simpson etc.
All in all, Braid's standing was as high as the others if not more so and he got more than his fair share of quality jobs.
Niall
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Niall
We shall have to agree to disagree as I think Colt etc were considered the cream of the crop of British archies then and now. Braid is regretfully often mentioned as a "what about Braid" afterthought. I think this is a great shame, but thats life. Folks will always point toward Braid as first and foremost a player when in truth he was an incredibly important servant to the game and a highly skilled architect. I don't think there was anybody that compares well to Braid - he was that special.
Ciao
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Gosh I am embarrassing myself all over this thread.
I have now realized that it is pointless to question an opinion offered with no supporting specifics from a guy who unequivocally knows the thoughts and intentions of a man dead almost 64 years! That trumps anything I got.
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Niall
We shall have to agree to disagree as I think Colt etc were considered the cream of the crop of British archies then and now. Braid is regretfully often mentioned as a "what about Braid" afterthought. I think this is a great shame, but thats life. Folks will always point toward Braid as first and foremost a player when in truth he was an incredibly important servant to the game and a highly skilled architect. I don't think there was anybody that compares well to Braid - he was that special.
Ciao
Sean
I think we will have to disagree. Where I think you are wrong is in how Braid was generally perceived then but you are probably right about how he is generally perceived now. It's interesting to think how the change happened and I think that may well be due to the likes of Darwin and others writing about the Oxbridge crew in a way that they didn't about Braid, Taylor and Hawtree. Reading Darwins book on Braid and it's clear he's not really interested in the subject of the book. If there was any snobbishness or cliquishness it was more within that tight knit group than with the wider golfing public/clubs IMO.
Niall
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Put me down as a big Braid fan.
Sean, I would tend to agree with your theory re the commissions, but it would be interesting to see how Oxford fits into this. Wasn't the original course a Braid and then modifications were made by Colt?
Why was Braid approached in the first instance, especially as you couldn't get a more Oxbridge connected course than this? Timeline?
Ryan, I would be interested to hear what Braid courses you consider poor. Do they still represent the original Braid design or have they been butchered by some 'know better' committees?
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Richard
I don't know the answer to your good question. I suspect, as was often the case, Braid worked on an existing course. Perhaps when (if?) the Oxford Blues/University GC gained enough university respect and new (higher land) was obtained, higher ups banged their heads together and called Colt in (by now - early '20s - very famous as an archie) to create a new course. We do know that some Braid work remains and there is some evidence that the string of fine golf from 4-7 is actually Braid's work!
Jeepers - has the mud hole on 18 had much negative effect on the overall design?
Ciao
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I played the course on Monday evening with my old boss whom you met and he says that apart from the seniors and ladies the glorified goldfish pond is generally well liked.
No accounting for taste.
Interestingly just as we were leaving I noticed a proposed course plan from 1922 which showed the back to back par 4 5th & 6th approximately where they are today, but the par 3 4th was actually at the other end of the par 4's running from the 5th green to the 6th tee.
If this was actually done then there would not be any complete Braid holes left on the course as the 5th green doesn't look like an original and the 6th was probably lengthened by pushing the tee back into the corner where the 'old' par 3 green would have been.
I didn't have time to look at this properly or take a photo, but it does give an excuse for a re-visit.
If your interested sometime in September I would be up for a game.
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Sean/Richard
You seem to be under the impression that either Braid did mainly redesigns and bunkering schemes and that Colt and the Oxbridge crew only/mainly did new courses instructed by the great and the good. Let me suggest that is far from the case. The Oxbridge guys weren't above doing minor redesigns and travelling the length of the country to do it. Let me also suggest that Colt's reputation was secure well before WWI never mind the 1920's.
Niall
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Richard - I think 1922 is about the time Colt should have turned up. I also think the land (4,5 & 6) around the barracks was worked on by Braid - at a later visit, probably not long before Colt turned up.
Niall
Yes, for sure Braid had a lot of original designs, and Colt did many revisions, but jeepers, its very obvious to me that Braid's original commissions as a whole are nowhere near in the class of Colt's. I am not even convinced Braid was chasing a lot of the same work as Colt. I strongly suspect these two guys were operating in seperate design worlds. That doesn't mean Braid wasn't highly respected, but remember, he always entered Walton Heath from the trademan's entrance even as honorary member of Walton Heath, a director and shareholder in the club, the only honorary member of the Parliamentary Golfing Society and most cherished of all, elected as an honorary member of the Royal and Ancient Club. Braids connections at Walton Heath carried him a long way, but very much in an honorary way ;).
Anyway, we already agreed to disagree about this subject so lets kick on.
Ciao
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Niall,
I not sure my posts gave that impression but if they did my apologies. I've no argument that Braid and Colt etc had varied portfolio's of new work and redesign.
My agreement with Sean is that it seems that Braid didn't often get the best land to work with, nor the budget, but still managed to produce wonderfully interesting and fun courses.
I'm always amazed when I play Pennard how someone could visualise a routing on that piece of land and design such a great golf course.
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I am surprised at the direction this thread has taken and the impression many seem to have that a top GCA is judged by the number of great courses designed and to a lesser extent the % of clunkers.
Braid designed/ had a hand in many top courses that have stood the test of time and even more lesser courses such as Brora which are equally as good. It is saddening to see that from a GCA point of view many regard good GCA on a so called championship course better quality than a non championship course. Is Brora poorer quality from a GCA point of view than say Gleneagles? I think not yet many here seem to hold this to be true. Bluff over substance me thinks :'(
Surely designing for the average golfer is as important as for the top players. In this respect does not a course such as Strathpeffer present the average player with a more interesting challenging than say Carnoustie for the average player? Carnoustie might be great GCA for the top players but can GCA be considered great if unplayable. Is Carnoustie therefore not poor GCA for the average player? Is therefore Strathpeffer better GCA for the majority of players than Carnoustie?
Jon
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Jon
Excuse me if I got it wrong, but it seems to me you are channeling Johnnie Cochran. Are you saying that architecture for the average player is truly what great architecture is about? If so, I fail to see why most truly great architecture isn't for the average player. If its isn't, then who is it for? Could you be confusing our conversation about high profile designs to mean great designs?
Besides all that, what do you think of the course?
Ciao
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Sean,
what I am trying in my convoluted way to say is that my impression is many hold GCA for the top player in higher regard than that for the average player. I am a great believer in great GCA offers an interesting but equally solvable question to a player. I do not think that ease or difficulty is part of the equation but rather playability and interest. My impression from the courses being talked about with Braid especially is that a hole that is easy or a course that is simple to score on is considered lesser because of the easiness.
I would suggest that Brora is equally as good quality GCA as Carnoustie and for the average player off 18 handicap better GCA as Carnoustie is beyond the playing ability of said golfer in places.
As for the course, I have never played it but your tour suggest it presents an interesting and quirky challenge that will retain its interest over time. As with most courses that I really like I suspect it is a better matchplay course than strokeplay.
Jon
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Jon
I agree. Great architecture tends to be associated with professional/top flight golf. I also agree that playability (for a player of a reasonable standard - say up to 24ish handicap) is an important aspect of architecture that can be overlooked. That said, its getting more and more difficult for archies to build in interest and challenge for the pro and 24 marker. Bringing this subject back to Perranporth, there is no question the course has playability issues if the weather is rough. I don't know it well enough to determine if there reasonable "routes" to greens in 30mph wind, but the terrain makes this very difficult on at least a few holes. Mind you, if men could drop their pride, there are some ladies tees which would be very helpful in such weather. The day we completely drop the association between tees and gender will be one of the great days in the history of golf.
Ciao
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The day we completely drop the association between tees and gender will be one of the great days in the history of golf.
Ciao
I agree whole heartedly with that Sean.
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The day we completely drop the association between tees and gender will be one of the great days in the history of golf.
Ciao
I agree whole heartedly with that Sean.
A good step forward would be eliminating red from the tee colors. We have gold senior tees and red ladies' tees. I'd love to see them reduced to one set, maybe green for go.
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The day we completely drop the association between tees and gender will be one of the great days in the history of golf.
Ciao
I agree whole heartedly with that Sean.
A good step forward would be eliminating red from the tee colors. We have gold senior tees and red ladies' tees. I'd love to see them reduced to one set, maybe green for go.
Last year, I tried suggesting removing the colour red and dropping any reference to gender on tees around the country to a senior GUI Ladies representative... And was looked at like I had two heads... She wouldn't hear of it.
Needs to be done though... Not only will it help the men but it will allow us to build further forward tees (needed) if the better Ladies can step back a set without thinking of them as Men's tees...
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Ally -
I agree with your sentiments. I am flumoxed by the GUI Ladies rep's objection. Why did she oppose the idea?
Confused, Bob
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Ally -
I agree with your sentiments. I am flumoxed by the GUI Ladies rep's objection. Why did she oppose the idea?
Confused, Bob
Bob,
Can't recall 100% but it came down to competition monitoring and a bureaucratic type of problem that stood in the way of common sense...
That said, Par / The scorecard also stands in the way - given that a 400 yard hole is deemed a Par-4 for men and Par-5 for women.
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......a bureaucratic type of problem that stood in the way of common sense...
Golf politics. Just about the most unedifying aspect of the game. As was once said, "Why do private members golf clubs always have showers in the locker rooms? Because a committee cannot run a bath".
:)
atb
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Ally -
I agree with your sentiments. I am flumoxed by the GUI Ladies rep's objection. Why did she oppose the idea?
Confused, Bob
Bob,
Can't recall 100% but it came down to competition monitoring and a bureaucratic type of problem that stood in the way of common sense...
That said, Par / The scorecard also stands in the way - given that a 400 yard hole is deemed a Par-4 for men and Par-5 for women.
Our favorite golfing couple was playing a match with us in Tucson, men vs women four ball. Late in a close match, we both had 5 on a hole that was par 5 for the ladies and par 4 for us. When I told the ladies the hole was halved, mayhem ensued, and didn't stop until the golf pro confirmed this after we finished 1 up.
Given the frosty trip back to the hotel, I probably should have taken the high road and given them the hole!
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I'm wondering whether a player like Tiger Woods, with his assortment of shots like the low flying stinger could play the course well in a good bit of wind. If so, then those complaining are simply complaining about the inadequacies of their games. In that case, we high handicappers simply smile and say welcome to our world. ;)
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The day we completely drop the association between tees and gender will be one of the great days in the history of golf.
Ciao
I agree whole heartedly with that Sean.
A good step forward would be eliminating red from the tee colors. We have gold senior tees and red ladies' tees. I'd love to see them reduced to one set, maybe green for go.
Last year, I tried suggesting removing the colour red and dropping any reference to gender on tees around the country to a senior GUI Ladies representative... And was looked at like I had two heads... She wouldn't hear of it.
Needs to be done though... Not only will it help the men but it will allow us to build further forward tees (needed) if the better Ladies can step back a set without thinking of them as Men's tees...
Ally,
the usual objection I have heard from the ladies is that they do not want men hacking lumps out of their pristine tees. I can still remember as an 8 year old being told by a lady member that I should refrain from taking a divot after I had taken a thin slice out of the ladies tee on the first. One of the better gentlemen players retorted with 'shows he his hitting down on the ball like all good players. You just keep taking those divots son.' I can tell you I took out some real slabs during that round(well for an 8 year old) ;D. I was playing from the yellow tees only a few weeks later.
Jon
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Well, Braid was involved in a lot mundane design. That was the nature of the beast when working on a budget and often having to use existing holes or add to them. Braid didn't get much high profile work (the Oxbridge set unsurprisingly got most of this work), Carnoustie and Gleneagles probably being the most famous, maybe Wallasey as well. My point was more that given good land and/or time and money, Braid's work stacks up with the best of the era. I can understand if folks don't like the more extreme examples of his work, but there is no doubting they are packed with character and inventiveness - elements sorely lacking in a lot of big name courses.
Ciao
I have to say that AM disagrees with you considerably. In particular, his criticism of Gleneagles in The Spirit of St. Andrews is brutal. AM says Gleneagles land was the best inland land in Scotland, but was ruined by excessive modification and spending far too much time and money.
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Well, Braid was involved in a lot mundane design. That was the nature of the beast when working on a budget and often having to use existing holes or add to them. Braid didn't get much high profile work (the Oxbridge set unsurprisingly got most of this work), Carnoustie and Gleneagles probably being the most famous, maybe Wallasey as well. My point was more that given good land and/or time and money, Braid's work stacks up with the best of the era. I can understand if folks don't like the more extreme examples of his work, but there is no doubting they are packed with character and inventiveness - elements sorely lacking in a lot of big name courses.
Ciao
I have to say that AM disagrees with you considerably. In particular, his criticism of Gleneagles in The Spirit of St. Andrews is brutal. AM says Gleneagles land was the best inland land in Scotland, but was ruined by excessive modification and spending far too much time and money.
I can't say as I have never played Gleneagles, but a lot of people I trust more than Dr Mac do like Gleneagles quite a bit :D
Ciao
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Well, Braid was involved in a lot mundane design. That was the nature of the beast when working on a budget and often having to use existing holes or add to them. Braid didn't get much high profile work (the Oxbridge set unsurprisingly got most of this work), Carnoustie and Gleneagles probably being the most famous, maybe Wallasey as well. My point was more that given good land and/or time and money, Braid's work stacks up with the best of the era. I can understand if folks don't like the more extreme examples of his work, but there is no doubting they are packed with character and inventiveness - elements sorely lacking in a lot of big name courses.
Ciao
I have to say that AM disagrees with you considerably. In particular, his criticism of Gleneagles in The Spirit of St. Andrews is brutal. AM says Gleneagles land was the best inland land in Scotland, but was ruined by excessive modification and spending far too much time and money.
I can't say as I have never played Gleneagles, but a lot of people I trust more than Dr Mac do like Gleneagles quite a bit :D
Ciao
Dr. Mac says the "scratch man" loves it.
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...it's a winner for me.
The Buda Cup started with Greensomes here. Good Choice. As I stood over a fabulous drive from Bryan Izatt on NO 2, I was able to have a discussion with my partner and, both equally clueless, we agreed the best guess was to smack a 6i 'forward'. The ball was found 1 yard off the green having run 90 degrees down the hill. Thrilling stuff.
At lunch the Pro and I inspected the Anemometer and there had been gusts upto 43mph. It was no less windy in the PM. There were lost balls but there was also generous width. The greens were slow but true. Only once did my ball 'wobble' and the results could have been scary if the greens had been appreciably faster. All week we got an easterly wind that allowed many of the Perranporth greens to be driven...'at', not since Elie have I had so many opportunities. This time I was not so successful but the prospects were truly exciting.
Would I want to play regular Medal golf there? Probably not. Will I rush back. You bet I will.
Note. While I loved our day there and think it's just the sort of course 'pests should visit the fact that the great value (£39.50 including Lunch) meant that were sharing the course with other golfers who were not playing with any skill or haste. We will have to consider this possibility when selecting future venues. I thoroughly enjoyed my 28 holes, but would have enjoyed 36 in the same timeframe much more.
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I wasn't so keen. Great fun hitting a 9I second through the back of 2 off a Ben Stephens drive but too many shots where the result is almost purely a question of luck. We may have got unfortunate with the wind (almost too strong for golf and from the East) but I wasn't won over, despite playing quite well (very well in the afternoon) and winning both matches. Of course the funereal pace of play might have been a factor....
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Mark et. al.
Any rumblings as to the location of the next BUDA? How about Northumberland? See you soon, there.
Rich
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Mark et. al.
Any rumblings as to the location of the next BUDA? How about Northumberland? See you soon, there.
Rich
Whoa there, I say whoa!
Things are afoot and a new thread will surface in due time.
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A couple of suggestions floating around, Rich. Enthusiasm for a north Norfolk visit but the 2 ball nature of Brancaster may be a problem. Notts/Sherwood Forest also talked about. I don't think Northumberland is interesting enough for this crowd but a Goswick/Bamburgh Castle combo might work......
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Reddish Vale/Cavendish/Delamere Forest?
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North to Scotland! Seven years.
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Perranporth trumps Pennard IMO. The first fairway is hugely wide. Makes Sagebrush look like you are walking single file. Number 2 is a barrel of fun, no less that Sean Arble put into his Dream course for Ran.
Over the 11th in two downwind. Had a great result on the 12th too. Pitched second into front slope on green and had the ball finish within 12 feet of the hole. Unfortunately, missed the birdie.
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Perranporth is a lot of fun with the right attitude, but the vagaries of the design mean it can't be taken seriously as great golf. Therefore, it isn't in the league of Pennard. I can see an argument for both being 6 with Pennard threatening 7 and Perranporth just scrapping the grade. I can also see Pennard a 7 and P'porth a 5. No way could I see a reversal of the two. Pennard is a proper course usually mistaken for being a funky design by those who don't know it well enough. P'porth is a wild up and down ride that wouldn't hold up for week to week play. I like them both and when its all said and done, both are 1*. P'porth holds it end up because its unbelievable value.
Ciao
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Once I get home and have more time well just have to have a match between the two.
The high handicapper is naturally going to hate the finish at Pennard, and not want to be depressed half the times he leaves the course.
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Garland
The interesting thing about a matchup is because both courses have so much character that there aren't many draws on my card. I have Pennard an easy winner by completely dominating holes 6-10. I also give wins for #s 4, 13, 15 & 16. P'porth takes 2, 5, 11, 12, 17 & 18. 1, 3 & 14 are draws. Final score 9-6 to Pennard.
If I think both holes are good I use two tie breakers. 1) If one of the holes is a par 3 it will have to be outstanding to beat a 4 or 5 because I think 3s are the easiest holes to build and there is no excuse for an indifferent 3. 2) Because good 5s are so rare, a 3 or 4 will have to be clearly better holes to win the day.
Ciao
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I always think the best way to play Perranporth is to rip up the scorecard and just play. I've played it several times including in "competition". Far and away the most enjoyment I've had is when I've not been worried about a score. It is unfair in a number of places and you are likely to lose a ball when you've hit a reasonable shot. If you are keeping score that is frustrating and can effect your opinion of the course. If you're not, you can shrug your shoulders, laugh at the ridiculousness, and drop another ball.
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It is unfair in a number of places and you are likely to lose a ball when you've hit a reasonable shot. If you are keeping score that is frustrating and can effect your opinion of the course.
I guess that was one of my big issues with Perranporth. I don't mind taking a big score on a hole. I don't mind picking my ball up. I don't mind losing a ball if I hit a bad shot. I don't mind a half-decent but not perfect shot getting punished. I do mind hitting a good or reasonable shot and losing my ball. I reckon I lost 6 balls on Wednesday morning last week playing greensomes (all from tee shots). A couple of those were bad shots, fair enough. A couple were moderate shots and a couple were decent shots. Yes the conditions were extreme but I suspect not that rare. We were playing matchplay and, given the format, the lost balls didn't count (my partner only hit two poor tee shots all round, both on holes where I hit good tee shots) and we won. Nonetheless I don't think good design results in lost balls from decent shots.
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Nonetheless I don't think good design results in lost balls from decent shots.
Mark, this is one of my mantras.
However I will throw one "but" in to the equation. Sometimes land is so severe that there are areas where this can unfortunately happen. Good design is minimising those areas and their impact as much as possible. But it is not always possible to eradicate those areas entirely.
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I would say that the drives on 5,7,12, and 13 are the biggest culprits here as these are the blind drives. Also 8 if you go for the green - in a normal wind this is into the wind so you do have the choice - and also the tee shot on 4, and possibly 17. On most other shots you should be alright unless you hit a bad one or in the wrong place - although you may need to learn where the wrong place is. I'd be interested to know which holes you lost your ball on?
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And also if you were hitting driver? If you were hitting irons on 5, 8, 12, 13, 17 then there is much less chance of losing a ball and they don't really need driver. 7 is the most unfair hole of the lot I think.
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Mark
Wearing the pro P'porth hat again, which drives did you think were unreasonable given the conditions? For mine, #s 4 (maybe in any wind!), 7 (in any wind) and 12. Of course, there are some approaches which are nuts as well.
P'porth strikes me as a course caught between a rock and hard place. We all praise natural terrain leading the design, but what to do when there are so many challenging areas without compromising the character of the land? Then, we have to think back to what tools Braid had at his disposal. I really couldn't say if a better course could have been routed on that site, but I can say there are some holes which are beyond the pale in a decent eastern breeze (the direction you encountered). I suspect once one comes to know the course better some of the harder edges of the design can be mitigated with safe play. If you think of #s 12 & 13, it is easy to pop a shot over the dune rather than bang a driver at the green. Of course, the approaches will be very demanding if one lays up because the terrain shy of the greens is very humpty bumpty. Then you turn for 14 and are faced with a monster par 4. This is an extreme example of the wind from the east being problematic, but its an issue which occurs throughout the round in one degree or another.
Its a shame you couldn't see the course in the prevailing wind. While some of the shorter 4s are no longer reachable, overall the design makes a ton more sense.
Ciao
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I can't recall all off the top of my head but I hit a decent shot with driver down the right of 2, with a strong right to left and following wind which ran across the fairway into rough on the left and was never seen again. I'm not sure the 2nd on 2 is a fair shot in most conditions, but that wasn't a problem on either of my two plays of that shot. 4 is a tee shot that relies entirely on luck and I lost a ball there hitting 8I that was well struck and, I imagine, took a kick forward and ran through the back. I lost a ball on 3 hitting a utility with a shot that hit the left edge of the fairway and ran off to the left, though that was a marginal tee shot having been pulled a bit. 7 I actually thought was fair into the wind, though could be worse downwind. In the afternoon, playing fourballs I won the hole because my tee shot was the only one of 4 that we could find! I lost my ball there in the morning. Not a horrible shot but slightly right of my intended line. I lost balls on 12 and 13 hitting driver, both fractionally right. On both those holes my partner was just through the back of the green with his tee shot.
In the wind we played I thought 2 was a lottery, 4 is a lottery in any conditions, I suspect, I couldn't see a conservatiev way to play 8 in that wind, 12 and 13 were very difficult to hit laying up given the need to carry the dune.
14 was a monster. Ben hit driver really well, I hit my best 3W of the week and we were still 70 yards short of the green. In the afternoon I hit driver, 3W really well to just reach the green. Perhaps the most monstrous hole in that wind was 5, after a good drive it was almost impossible to know where to hit a second. After a good 2nd it was still more than a full 3W to the green! Again, in the afternoon 4bbb I won the hole as last man standing.
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If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot, and meet the resulting triumph and disaster and treat these two imposters the same, you'll have enjoyed Perranporth, my son.
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If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot, and meet the resulting triumph and disaster and treat these two imposters the same, you'll have enjoyed Perranporth, my son.
That clearly isn't true. Whatever my reservations about Perranporth it's clear that to score well there you have to hit a lot of good shots. We get that you don't like Perranporth but exaggerated criticism like yours doesn't encourage sensible discussion.
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If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot, and meet the resulting triumph and disaster and treat these two imposters the same, you'll have enjoyed Perranporth, my son.
That clearly isn't true. Whatever my reservations about Perranporth it's clear that to score well there you have to hit a lot of good shots. We get that you don't like Perranporth but exaggerated criticism like yours doesn't encourage sensible discussion.
Mark
Despite your haughty comment, your descriptions previously show my criticism is valid rather than exaggeration.
How many balls did you lose from decent shots again?
Exactly.
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I played with the Cornish County golf captain and he said it was a great place to play county matches as the other team were completly baffled.
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If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot
Ryan,
I'm struggling with you last post. This sentence implies that bad shots are as likely to be rewarded by good results as good shots. My point is that some good shots get bad results. Those are not the same thing at all.I do not recall seeing a single bad shot at Perranporth get a good result. I saw several very good shots get very good results. My problem with the course is that some good shots get bad results. In particular it is possible to hit a good shot and lose a ball. Your criticism is exaggeration.
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If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot
Ryan,
I'm struggling with you last post. This sentence implies that bad shots are as likely to be rewarded by good results as good shots. My point is that some good shots get bad results. Those are not the same thing at all.I do not recall seeing a single bad shot at Perranporth get a good result. I saw several very good shots get very good results. My problem with the course is that some good shots get bad results. In particular it is possible to hit a good shot and lose a ball. Your criticism is exaggeration.
In which case Mark, it is a truly remarkable course.
Apparently, it is the only links course where luck doesn't work both ways. Always and indeed frequently bad, never good, not even a possibility despite only one play. Good shots result in lost balls and unplayable lies, no bad shot ever gets a good result.....
....come on Mark, really? you got on your high horse for some reason but in essence you agree with me.
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Ryan,
Do you genuinely believe there is no correlation between the quality of a shot and its outcome at Perranporth? That is what you are saying and it's nonsense.
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Ryan,
Do you genuinely believe there is no correlation between the quality of a shot and its outcome at Perranporth? That is what you are saying and it's nonsense.
Mark
I believe the correlation between the quality of a shot and its outcome at Perranporth is far too removed, far too frequently, in conditions that are far from unusual. Not every hole, not every shot, just way too many.
The "nonsensical" comments below are yours rather than mine. I agree with you, even if you now appear to be disagreeing with yourself. Lottery you say?
I do mind hitting a good or reasonable shot and losing my ball.
It is unfair in a number of places and you are likely to lose a ball when you've hit a reasonable shot. If you are keeping score that is frustrating and can effect your opinion of the course.
Nonetheless I don't think good design results in lost balls from decent shots.
In the wind we played I thought 2 was a lottery, 4 is a lottery in any conditions.
Not sure that completely contradicting yourself in the space of a few posts does much for the quality of discussion either, old chum.
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Sean,
When I played Perranporth this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...
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Sean,
When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...
And all the discussion was how long would it take Ben to suggest improvements! ;)
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Just remember there is a difference between a well struck ball, and a well advised shot.
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Sean,
When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...
That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.
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Sean,
When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...
That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.
GJ
You were thinking Pennard's routing could be improved. Please, lay out that new and improved routing.
Ciao
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Sean,
When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...
That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.
GJ
You were thinking Pennard's routing could be improved. Please, lay out that new and improved routing.
Ciao
Did you even read Frank's post? Or, did I at some time claim to be the best and the brightest in Frank's profession?
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Garland
The interesting thing about a matchup is because both courses have so much character that there aren't many draws on my card. I have Pennard an easy winner by completely dominating holes 6-10. I also give wins for #s 4, 13, 15 & 16. P'porth takes 2, 5, 11, 12, 17 & 18. 1, 3 & 14 are draws. Final score 9-6 to Pennard.
If I think both holes are good I use two tie breakers. 1) If one of the holes is a par 3 it will have to be outstanding to beat a 4 or 5 because I think 3s are the easiest holes to build and there is no excuse for an indifferent 3. 2) Because good 5s are so rare, a 3 or 4 will have to be clearly better holes to win the day.
Ciao
Seems 1 should go strongly to Perranporth. 1 at Pennard is straight away, with blind shot into green in bowl. Other than the blind shot it is about as dull as a links hole with fairway movement can get. Perranporth is a good opening hole with thoughtful shot placement asked from the tee, and decision making if the first shot doesn't come off as planned.
Perranporth 1 up after 1.
Pennard concedes the second hole.
Perranporth 2 up after 2.
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Sean,
When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...
That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.
GJ
You were thinking Pennard's routing could be improved. Please, lay out that new and improved routing.
Ciao
Did you even read Frank's post? Or, did I at some time claim to be the best and the brightest in Frank's profession?
GJ
Yes, I read Frank's post, the same Frank who is an architect...so at least he has some idea of what he saying. Even so, that doesn't mean Frank or anybody is able to re-route Perranporth into a better course yet retain the character of the present design. I always sense when archies talk of better, they usually mean more conventional, predictable and safer. I had this conversation with an archie RE Pennard. There are so few truly original and characterful designs on the planet that folks (especially archies) shouldn't be looking for ways to improve them. Instead, they should be looking for things they could learn from these unique designs.
Ciao
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Yes, I read Frank's post, the same Frank who is an architect...so at least he has some idea of what he saying. Even so, that doesn't mean Frank or anybody is able to re-route Perranporth into a better course yet retain the character of the present design. I always sense when archies talk of better, they usually mean more conventional, predictable and safer. I had this conversation with an archie RE Pennard. There are so few truly original and characterful designs on the planet that folks (especially archies) shouldn't be looking for ways to improve them. Instead, they should be looking for things they could learn from these unique designs.
Ciao
Sean, very well put.
Perranporth was a tough one to evaluate on only one day of play. With the unusual wind, and direction, the short par 4's were even shorter, the longer holes were even longer. I was worn out trying to figure out how to play them. I am glad I got to see it, I am glad I got to attempt to hold my swing and mind together in that wind, but it is hard to give it the credit it may well deserve. I think the winds were above 30 MPH as some balls were oscillating on the greens that are purposely kept slow.
Amazingly a member in the clubhouse before the round told me it was unfortunate I wasn't going to see the course with any teeth today as he didn't think it would get very windy.
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Sean,
I'm not big on rerouting classic courses, eg I would not change the routing at either Cruden Bay or Pennard. However Perranporth might be the exception to the rule. Not so sure about that routing... but maybe none of the best and brightest will find a better routing, it was just an observation.
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Sean,
I'm not big on rerouting classic courses, eg I would not change the routing at either Cruden Bay or Pennard. However Perranporth might be the exception to the rule. Not so sure about that routing... but maybe none of the best and brightest will find a better routing, it was just an observation.
Exactly what I was thinking about Pennard, except it wouldn't be I, but he.
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I have to wonder if anyone posting to this thread knows Perranporth well enough to be choosing the right shots, or good enough to be hitting the right shots so that they can judge how much bad luck they actually experienced.
I played yesterday in a one hat blow off wind (slightly less than Perranporth) with a couple, the woman of which had to cancel her round at St. Enodoc to go play a qualifier at St. Andrews. She was carving shots into the wind at will and driving it farther then we boys. My joke was that I and her husband were going to send her back to play the blue tees.
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...or good enough to be hitting the right shots so that they can judge how much bad luck they actually experienced.
How good do you reckon a golfer should be to judge luck?
I don't subscribe to the "luck" theory of design. Meaning, I don't believe that luck in terms of bounces etc plays much part in the outcome of shots. Luck is when a player gets an unforseen break or hard cheese due to no intended action. For instance, I pull my shot 25 yards off-line, it hits a rock and goes in the hole - one should be so lucky - that is luck. Hitting a shot down the middle and watching the ball caroom well left because that is what the terrain dictates is not luck - that is predictable. It could well be in certain conditions P'porth has some shots which are extremely difficult to a) predict and b) even if predictable, the shot may be too difficult for many and c) if too difficult, there is little scope for an alternative route.
P'porth essentially has space issue in some places. Given the nature of some of the terrain, there aren't enough options in certain weather conditions. I know P'porth well enough to know that for the likes of Buda, if the wind is up, guys should drop their pride and play some holes from the red tees. Sure, stand back and blast away an old ball and see what gives, but then move up for the match. Either that, or do a walk through the day before ;D
Ciao
Ciao
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...or good enough to be hitting the right shots so that they can judge how much bad luck they actually experienced.
How good do you reckon a golfer should be to judge luck?
It's not a matter of golfing ability. It's a matter personality. Some people that come on here and lambast a course probably don't have the personality to give a good assessment of luck.
...if the wind is up, guys should drop their pride and play some holes from the red tees.
Since it's match play, as long as the fairway can be reached it doesn't matter what tees.
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You know, Sean, I think this may be the only course you've ever profiled on here that I don't like the looks of. Call me crazy, but despite all the open sky and beautiful vistas, the course feels somehow cramped to me, hemmed-in by the hillocks as it were, and rather pinched in the playing.
No accounting for tastes, I suppose (mine, i mean, not yours).
Peter
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GJ
I am not sure what matchplay has to do with anything. A course is a course. One has to negotiate his way round regardless of how or if score is kept.
Pietro
I fully understand your position. The only thing I would say is P'porth has bags of character that I wouldn't summarily dismiss for the sake of 3, 5 or 6 dubious shots on the course. But, there is only so much time and money so its perfectly reasonable (to me at least) in using pix to make a call on courses. Its not as if opinions are smashed in stone, but time and money are definitely finite resources.
Ciao
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For what it's worth, I liked the course, but I would also like to play it in half the wind we experienced or even maybe a third of it. However, if this had not been the BUDA there's no way I would have out for a second round. I knew the course had been satisfied with body blows during the first round and was fully capable of finishing me off with an upper cut or a good left hook during the second eighteen.
If I lived near I could see play info it once a month or so. And if I turned up and there a three to four club wind I'd just have a pint where I could sit and watch the defeated legions straggling home with their tales of woe.
Of course, if the winds we experienced were typical or not unusual then I would be less likely to play there.
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Steve,
How did you find P'porth with hickories? Ball flight, different playing angles to others who were playing with modern equip, carries off the tee (and for other shots), any grab 'n' stop into the wind, ground game etc? I guess narrow flanged irons must have been useful off the tight fairway lies but what were they like from taller/thicker rough? Also, what ball did you play with?
atb
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Peter,
The pictures are perhaps a little misleading. I felt that the course provided enough room in lots places. The 1st and 9th are enormously wide. There are some tight holes - 12 comes to mind. Given the vicious wind we played in i don't recall feeling pinched. B&B felt a lot narrower for the most part in much lighter winds. But there are so many choices of courses in the UK i can understand if you gave it a miss. It was for me, however, an experience I'm glad l had.
Regarding the element of luck at P'porth, it can cut both ways. For instance on the 12th, with my partner in the gunch, I tried to play a safe 2 hybrid off the tee. It was marginally left of the aiming marker and never seen again. Lost the hole. On the 16th a longish par 3, I chunked my tee shot so badly it might have flown 40 yards. Turning away in disgust I didn't watch it finish. It ended up maybe 15 feet behind the hole in the back fringe and we closed out the match on that lucky shot.
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Thomas,
I found Perranporth daunting, but that was as much due to the state of my game as it was the hickories. Unfortunately I have quite a high ball flight even with hickories and the wind played havoc with a lot of my shot particularly as I was moving the ball left to right. During the second round I did try to hit some low running shots into the wind with my low irons, a mashie and a mid iron. Except for the one I smother hooked (not the hickories's fault), that worked pretty well.
The greatest challenge with the hickory shafts comes from the loss of distance. Even well struck tee balls,
of which there were too few, left me hitting wooden clubs on many approaches.
I used Noodles until I ran out, a process Perranporth hastened, but with my clubs which are replicas, the manufacturer assures.me I can use any ball I would ordinarily.
If I were playing well and the winds were no more than 1 one club in strength I think I would the course manageable.
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GJ
I am not sure what matchplay has to do with anything. A course is a course. One has to negotiate his way round regardless of how or if score is kept.
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In match play par has no meaning. You suggested moving up to red. If par has no meaning, why would one have to move up unless fairways were unreachable. I certainly can't think of any fairways that were unreachable.
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Thanks Steve. It must have been pretty difficult with hickories ( or any equip!) given the wind strength that the guys spoke of.
Atb
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GJ
I am not sure what matchplay has to do with anything. A course is a course. One has to negotiate his way round regardless of how or if score is kept.
...
In match play par has no meaning. You suggested moving up to red. If par has no meaning, why would one have to move up unless fairways were unreachable. I certainly can't think of any fairways that were unreachable.
GJ
Despite your protests, I think it is well established there are some shots with a strong easterly wind that are beyond the pale. It makes no difference how one keeps score to determine this, yet you fall back on matchplay as a way to combat the issue. That makes no sense to me. A course is a course and how one keeps score is a completely separate matter.
I think you and I see golf architecture in a completely different light. I like P'porth, but can readily understand its shortcomings. As you seem to be typing words randomly and we are not really in a meaningful discourse, perhaps that is enough said.
Ciao
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If some shots are beyond the pale, then don't try them. Try something else.
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Garland I'm with you on this but we ain't gonna convince some folk other wise.
I think in the afternoon match we halved the 5th hole ,straight into the wind, with 8's. There were couple of really good shots in that and it was never less than totaly engrossing.
Love, love Perranporth.
(But it's nothing like as good as Pennard ;))
BTW I hope this doesn't come accross wrong.
Having now spent time with you I can hear you throwing these points out and I can see the grin. One of the failings of the internet is the grin gets lost. I'm guessing my take on your comments is a little different than those who have never met you.
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Spangles
The conversation has turned strange because P'porth is one of my favourite courses in England. So it is difficult to understand your position which seems to be the course is perfect :D, yet I don't hear you proclaiming P'porth as your favourite. Then again, with all the waffling going on, it wouldn't surprise me if you said all courses were perfect. I don't know about you, but I look forward to more games at P'porth, even with its inherent faults :-*
Ciao
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Garland I'm with you on this but we ain't gonna convince some folk other wise.
I think in the afternoon match we halved the 5th hole ,straight into the wind, with 8's. There were couple of really good shots in that and it was never less than totaly engrossing.
Love, love Perranporth.
(But it's nothing like as good as Pennard ;))
BTW I hope this doesn't come accross wrong.
Having now spent time with you I can hear you throwing these points out and I can see the grin. One of the failings of the internet is the grin gets lost. I'm guessing my take on your comments is a little different than those who have never met you.
Garland is an APFC. Agent provocateur first class.
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I think in the afternoon match we halved the 5th hole ,straight into the wind, with 8's. There were couple of really good shots in that and it was never less than totaly engrossing.
My partner and I were both in good shape in the afternoon on the 5th after 2 shots (both still two good blows from the green, though!) when our opponents conceded the hole, both having lost their balls (literally, not metaphorically). In the morning three really good shots left us 40 yards short, from where another 6 were required to get down, losing to our opponents 8. I think 5 is a really good hole. Those results say more about the conditions than the course.
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"Garland is an APFC. Agent provocateur first class."
Bill -
You could be half right. ;)
DT
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I thought Perranporth was great fun in that wind. A real challenge and adventure! Would I want to play it like that on a regular basis, crikey no! But for occasional sport it was great fun!
I think in the afternoon match we halved the 5th hole ,straight into the wind, with 8's. There were couple of really good shots in that and it was never less than totaly engrossing.
My partner and I were both in good shape in the afternoon on the 5th after 2 shots (both still two good blows from the green, though!) when our opponents conceded the hole, both having lost their balls (literally, not metaphorically). In the morning three really good shots left us 40 yards short, from where another 6 were required to get down, losing to our opponents 8. I think 5 is a really good hole. Those results say more about the conditions than the course.
I think the 5th seemed to be all about the second shot. Both times we played the 3rd hole there were people all around the mounds, humps and hollows that were off to the right of us therefore part of the second shot on the 5th hole, all seeming to have interesting times! Robin and I perhaps got lucky taking his decent drive and my 3 wood which managed to get past those humps and hollows leaving a 6 iron to the green in the morning which lead to a hard fought par. That afternoon, with the wind a little stronger, all 4 of us got caught up in those mounds with our second or third or more shot which lead to some real carnage that only the calmness that is Lou Duran managed to overcome...
I thought it was a good hole!
Cheers,
James
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I think I'll add these pics here as well as to the Buda thread.
Some more random images of Perranporth. The scale of the place was enormous and very photogenic.
The skyline 2nd green with two intrepid golfers.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3884/15256240216_040ce216ec_c.jpg)
The preceding foursome heading out on #3 with #5 coming back down on the right. Enormous room to miss right on both holes.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3895/15092683438_406f4a79e3_c.jpg)
Whitty about to embark on a search on the wrong side of #3.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3914/15279257745_353ee6ca97_c.jpg)
An easy walk up to #3.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3838/15092710007_a16b7173d0_c.jpg)
The 4th green is out there somewhere, although those guys look somewhat short.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5566/15276132851_aa49711d36_c.jpg)
Looking back up #5 with the follwing foursome descending. Enormous scale and width.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3879/15279266345_2eea581c6b_c.jpg)
The nasty short uphill 6th.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5570/15279268925_4aeccd5cd4_c.jpg)
Magnificent vistas looking across the 6th green. (Except for the knobby knees. ;D)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/15092515699_d4b9ae9e5d_c.jpg)
Devilish swale in front of the 7th green.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5586/15256263806_4f0a48f35c_c.jpg)
The 8th is downtown somewhere. Did they use up the world supply of aiming markers on this course!? ;D
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3850/15092521809_df3baa1cb2_c.jpg)
Joe's good form on the 9th.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3919/15092710408_ca7b3879ae_c.jpg)
The 11th green where I hit a brilliant 7 iron to 15 feet below the flag after Tony's brilliant drive down the middle of the fairway only to find out we'd played the wrong ball. ???
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5564/15251242676_78278f9b2c_c.jpg)
The aiming post on the 12th, where you can lose a ball hitting it over said post.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3879/15276153641_96f1e10056_c.jpg)
The 12th green.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3879/15087670048_cd265655f8_c.jpg)
Some golfers on the 14th tee. Looks like a good place for a wind farm. ;)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5596/15228797192_071479b03a_c.jpg)
The 14th green looks daunting.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3864/15273847882_08436577f8_c.jpg)
Who are those guys waiting up there? Must be lunch time. We're on the clock to finish.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3884/15226065611_7cf504ac81_c.jpg)
The 17th green, I think.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3852/15087668357_1da77ebf05_c.jpg)
All in all a wild ride. Not sure I'd want to play it every day, but it was some experience, even in the wind. Sadly we didn't get to finish the second nine of the second round to cement a memory of those holes. The siren song of the Pityme Pub beckoned too sweetly.
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The 6th is a fantastic short 3, specially in the wind we had. Even if the wind was in the more common opposite direction, it would require a finessed short iron to hold the green. Much better than the often photographed #7 at PBGL IMO.
The nasty short uphill 6th.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5570/15279268925_4aeccd5cd4_c.jpg)
Magnificent vistas looking across the 6th green. (Except for the knobby knees. ;D)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/15092515699_d4b9ae9e5d_c.jpg)
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I found Perranporth's front nine even stranger than I thought, especially in a relatively strong wind through the first five holes.
However, my question is this -- was it routed as two separate nines in two periods? The back nine seemed to utilize the land much more effectively, and was more playable. The front nine struggled with some of the more difficult land. That, and the returning nines, made me wonder if Perranporth was nine (back nine first) with the second nine built at some point later. There are traditional links that return after nine, but they aren't common.
For what it is worth, I thought the back nine was exceptional. Every hole, maybe minus the 10th, was solid to very good, with some really great ones mixed in (12, and 15 for example).
I really enjoyed it and am glad I saw it.
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According to James Braid and his Four Hundred Golf Courses Perranporth is perhaps his only 18 hole links design from scratch. The nines have been reversed from what he designed and intended. He visited the 10th of November, 1926. He had an excellent memory for landforms and could return home and send a detailed report on his design. He varied from this slightly first giving a detailed oral report at the Perranporth Hotel before returning home and sending his detailed report.
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Robert
The front 9 covers more dramatic land so it is hard for me to understand how the back nine seemed to utilize the land much more effectively. There are some crazy holes like the 4th, but a few crackers such as #s 6 & 9. The back 9 to me is more mixed because the weakest hole is 15 (not sure why you think it is great); 10 isn't awesome either. But 14 and 18 are very cool holes. All in all, if the wind is reasonable, Perranporth is a very evocative course and not one to be missed.
Ciao
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Glad we played it and really enjoyed it.
Once a year would be plenty, twice in one week is too much.
I think the constant warnings of "weird, blind, quirky and crazy" all helped prepare me for something weird but intriguing.
There are some great holes like the 12th and I also liked the 9th too.
Views are out of this world!
The bottom of the property is full of strange choices, from "why go there?", through to "why not head over there instead?".
If it was all available to him (left of three), he missed an easy and effective run out to the sea and back.
But in a strange way, I'm almost glad I played the 2nd through 5th.
It was an adventure like no other ... and that's not always a bad thing.
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Not sure if you confused 15 and 14 Robert? Like Sean, I think 15 is one of the weaker holes but 14 is aptly named as "Braid's best".
I've played Perranporth several times and I don't think it is particularly unfair. There is plenty of room to play safe on a number of holes. The only hole I really have an issue with is 7 which is crazily narrow for a blind drive with ball gobbling rough either side - put the pro v1s away on that hole! The aiming marker on 12 gets a lot of abuse - "I aimed my driver at the post and never saw the ball again". That is because the aiming marker is not for people trying to drive the green, and there is also a white and a yellow post for the different tees which can be confusing. As on any course, there are places where you can't go. These are less apparent to people who don't know the course due to the blindness.
I would also qualify what Sean says about the wind needing to be reasonable. Perranporth is entirely playable in very strong winds, as long as it is the prevailing wind. Almost all the short par 4s play into the prevailing wind (8,12,13,18), and the tougher holes such as 14 play predominately downwind. If the wind is reversed these holes don't work anywhere near as well. I think the conditions experienced in the Buda were extremely unusual and the course was much the poorer for it.
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Ed: My bad. I quite liked 12, 13 (even though I lost a ball after hitting an iron down the middle of the fairway) and 14, and thought 16, the par three, was truly exceptional.
Our wind was into us and off the sea on holes like 2, 11-13, etc. It wasn't as tough up top, but was quite interesting in the holes down below.
That said, loved the course. Glad I saw it.
Sean: I'd say the land seemed more conducive to golf on the back nine. The holes were never as extreme. Maybe they lacked the highs of the front, but all in all, I liked the stretch once you got up to the top of the property. Yes, 10 and perhaps 18 aren't great, but what's in-between is quite good. I did wonder about his propensity for steep-faced uphill greens. That showed up a few times, especially on the back nine.
Surprised to here it wasn't routed as nine and nine. Would have explained a lot in my mind.
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Not many bunkers at Perranporth (only 9 by my quick count). Struggling to think of any 18-hole links course I've played with less bunkers.
Bing satmap extract - http://binged.it/1GGODo2
atb
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Not many bunkers at Perranporth (only 9 by my quick count). Struggling to think of any 18-hole links course I've played with less bunkers.
Bing satmap extract - http://binged.it/1GGODo2
atb
atb
Do you think Perranporth needs more bunkers?
Ciao
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Not many bunkers at Perranporth (only 9 by my quick count). Struggling to think of any 18-hole links course I've played with less bunkers.
Bing satmap extract - http://binged.it/1GGODo2
atb
atb
Do you think Perranporth needs more bunkers?
Ciao
No! Just a general observation. Given the terrain it could probably get away with having none at all!
atb
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I played Perranporth again a couple of weeks ago, the day after playing St. Enodoc. These 2 are probably my favourite courses and they did not disappoint. St.Enodoc was absolutely glorious - cloudless and barely a breeze. Just a great course. Perranporth was probably a 1-2 club prevailing breeze from the South West.
One thing that struck me about Perranporth this time is that, if you really think about what you're doing, then it isn't that unfair at all. If you just bang away with driver, which I've done previously, then you are asking for trouble. Holes like 5, 7, 8, 10, and 12 are ball donation holes if you are long and off line. I've always thought 7 was ridiculous but there is loads of space up to about 230 yards when it gets very narrow. You just need to be sensible and play short of the trouble and you'll be fine.
Despite not hitting the ball that well and putting terribly (38 putts) I was 10 over off 11 handicap. The only hole that I now have an issue with is the 4th which I previously liked. It is a fine looking hole but it just does not work. I hit my best shot of the day there - a gentle draw right at the flag. It turned into the only ball I lost all day and I still have no idea where it could have gone. It is too difficult a shot, particularly in the prevailing left to right breeze. I almost think it needs to be played as a 2 shotter.
Anyway, my love for Perranporth grows. It is certainly not mundane and has some fabulous holes - 2, 6, 9, 12, 14, and 16 are first class, with some other fine holes too. I will most certainly be back - several times!
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Ed,
Didn't happen to give Bude and North Cornwall a go while in the area did you?
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Ed,
Didn't happen to give Bude and North Cornwall a go while in the area did you?
Hi Garland,
No - I could only play on 2 of the days, due to a combination of family commitments and the weather. I was only 5 minutes from St.Enodoc so I was always going to play there. On the other day I had available I tried to get on early (on my own) at both Trevose and B&NC but they couldn't get me on at the right time so I went to Perranporth. No hardship as I love Perranporth but I hadn't played the other 2 so I would have liked to.
We go down there every couple of years so I'm sure I'll get on one day! Cheers,
Ed
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perranporth is an absolute wonder of a golf course IMO. If you dont enjoy a round at Perranporth then I think you golfing soul is bereft of fun. How can you not enjoy it//
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perranporth is an absolute wonder of a golf course IMO. If you dont enjoy a round at Perranporth then I think you golfing soul is bereft of fun. How can you not enjoy it//
Sam,
While I agree with you, it's confusing through the first series of holes before becoming more "understandable" after. The opening fives require a "hit of faith" each and a peer over the hill to find out if your line was reasonably close. That's simply not for everyone.
Even if you can't find the love for this unusual layout, I can't see how you can't be absolutely blown away by the views all round. And there are great gems found withing too.
I proudly where my Perranporth tie at all the golf dinners I attend.
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I proudly where my Perranporth tie at all the golf dinners I attend.
My only disappointment was that I wanted to buy a Perranporth polo shirt after the round as I love the logo. I have an old one that is completely worn out but there were only 3 or 4 shirts with the logo in the whole shop - and none in my size. Very odd.
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Ed
Perranporth is one of the few places I felt guilty using the county card. I thought the fee was too cheap given what the course provides. I felt it necessary to support the pro so I bought my first and only course guide which I promptly ignored. I also had my putter regripped. I think it is wonderful that places like Perranporth still exist.
Ciao
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Sean, got you covered ... I paid full fees, bought a guide for Robert, my only golf shirt on that trip and a tie ... :)
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Ed
Perranporth is one of the few places I felt guilty using the county card. I thought the fee was too cheap given what the course provides. I felt it necessary to support the pro so I bought my first and only course guide which I promptly ignored. I also had my putter regripped. I think it is wonderful that places like Perranporth still exist.
Ciao
Perranporth cost me £36 I think - no county card. St. Enodoc unbelievably cost me £45. The advertised rate was £75 (it was still summer rates) but if you played before 9am it was £45 which was a steal. I bought a golf top from St.Enodoc precisely because I though the Green Fee was, considering the weather and course condition, just about the best value I'd ever played.
I'm with you in that I think Perranporth is too cheap, particularly when you factor in the 2 for 1 offers. However, I think that is largely due to the fact that it is not in everyone's tastes. For every person, like us, who think it is an amazing place, there is another who thinks it is a bit "Mickey Mouse" - losing balls that are hit straight at the flag etc.. Long may they stay away and keep the costs down for us.
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Ed
Perranporth is one of the few places I felt guilty using the county card. I thought the fee was too cheap given what the course provides. I felt it necessary to support the pro so I bought my first and only course guide which I promptly ignored. I also had my putter regripped. I think it is wonderful that places like Perranporth still exist.
Ciao
Perranporth cost me £36 I think - no county card. St. Enodoc unbelievably cost me £45. The advertised rate was £75 (it was still summer rates) but if you played before 9am it was £45 which was a steal. I bought a golf top from St.Enodoc precisely because I though the Green Fee was, considering the weather and course condition, just about the best value I'd ever played.
I'm with you in that I think Perranporth is too cheap, particularly when you factor in the 2 for 1 offers. However, I think that is largely due to the fact that it is not in everyone's tastes. For every person, like us, who think it is an amazing place, there is another who thinks it is a bit "Mickey Mouse" - losing balls that are hit straight at the flag etc.. Long may they stay away and keep the costs down for us.
Gosh, I think I paid something like £40 for golf, guide and putter re-grip. The golf was stupidly cheap; £21 high summer.
Ciao
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The standard rate is £36 for a round, £41 for the day. The County card or 2 for 1 rate is £27.
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Anyone stayed in the new onsite log-cabins/lodges accommodation at Perranporth GC?*
These ones - http://www.perranporthgolfclub.co.uk/accommodation
atb
* the accommodation used to be just caravans but recently they installed a couple of log-cabins/lodges as well.
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Perranporth this afternoon.
Completely crazy golf. I’m not sure if there were more than two holes without a barber pole.
Some fantastic stuff. Love quirky holes but to be honest, when it keeps up for 18 on the trot, it just becomes a bit tiring.
Unsure why Braid only designed three one-shotters on this land (2 over 200 yards). The best way to bring a little normality to proceedings would have been to build a couple more.
Utterly unique.
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Ally
I too wonder why there aren't more short holes. Maybe the plethora of short 4s made that a difficult choice?
Ciao