Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on August 04, 2014, 04:12:03 PM

Title: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 04, 2014, 04:12:03 PM

Because I updated the photos so thoroughly I decided to create another St Enodoc Photo Thread.    For those interested in the comments of the original thread, see the link.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39199.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39199.0.html)

There are blind shots, heroic carries, all manner and style of greens which are wonderfully contoured, flat holes, wildly undulating holes and at least one hugely controversial hole.  This Cornwall gem on Daymer Bay is among a small handful of my favourite courses which I also believe to be among the best I have played.  It is difficult to praise the quality of this course too much. An awful lot of great design is packed into this 6100 yard dynamo which surrounds St Enodoc Church, whose graveyard is the final resting place of Sir John Betjeman.  It is ironic that the dunes which created such a memorable course were at the same time responsible for burying the chapel of ease.  It wasn't until the mid 19th century that the chapel was uncovered and restoration begun.  The namesake, St Enodoc (or St Gwinnodock), is said to have baptised converts at the nearby Jesus Well. 

I have long wondered about the pedigree of St Enodoc.  Founded in 1891, the course dating from 1898 featured what must have been some outstanding holes. The 13th and 14th of this course played along beach. I think the 13th green must have been very near today's 11th green.

We know that Braid (1907, 1937), Fowler (1923) and Simpson (1933) all had a hand in the design.  Very little has been altered since Braid’s 1937 visit and the biggest change has probably been the 16th. The green was recently pushed back some 50 yards or so behind the old green, making this a stout 3-shotter.  While I question the rationale for this move, I am a fan of the new hole.  Is it better than the old, probably not, but the change is well done.  Anyway, back to the issue of Braid, Fowler and Simpson...and it must be remembered that these are all only guesses on my part so please take them with a pinch of salt.  It would seem that #s 1, 8, 10, 11 & 12 may not be Braid holes and that the rest...emphatically are in some form or another.  I shall select the 10th first to clear away because it’s the easiest to deal with.  This is the sole remaining hole from the original 1891 design and it happens to be THE controversial hole on the course.  I am a great admirer of this hole and nothing I saw this trip has changed my mind.  This is one of the great par 4s in golf even if earning a 4 is most unlikely for mere mortals. 

Now we come to the question of #s 1 & 18.  I couldn’t say for sure who designed these two holes.  The 18th was reversed by Braid to its present configuration when the new house was built, but the green has heavy hints of Simpson involvement.  Knowing Fowler greens, I would guess that Simpson also had something to do with the first as well because of the interior contours which Fowler didn’t tend to produce.  In fact, and not to stray too far from the question, I would say Simpson may very well have altered many greens because they have rolls and flow which I haven’t seen often done by Braid or Fowler. 

For the same reasons as above, my guess is Simpson had a hand in #s 8 and 12.  Additionally, I don’t think Fowler would ring a par 3 with bunkers like the current 8th.  #11 is a bit of a different matter.  This green is very different from many on the course.  It is flat and running away from the tee.  With the oob hard left, the recovery from the right may cause a nervous moment or two.  This hole strikes me as having Fowler written all over it. 

I know of no course which sings to the golfer quite like St Enodoc does.  Many golfer's will first experience the links from the other side of the Camel Estuary, in Padstow.  The beach and dunes beckon the golfer to take the ferry...with spanners in tow. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4292/36195906955_4ed84cd14e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4292/36195906955_4ed84cd14e_b.jpg)

One can access the course over those dunes...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4305/36028982802_6659005a41_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4305/36028982802_6659005a41_b.jpg)

and sneak peak a lovely view or two...Stepper Point and Newlands Island.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4307/36028987512_106fea03b6_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4307/36028987512_106fea03b6_b.jpg)

but, since so many great archies went through the trouble, why not oblige them by starting on the opener?  The 1st gives the golfer an excellent idea of what to expect for the day; heaving ground punctuated with a tricky green.  After hitting through the elephant's graveyard, the fairway blindly drops to the level of the pleateau green.  On many days, this is a very reachable par 5.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4303/36195906745_708b424fb4_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4303/36195906745_708b424fb4_b.jpg)

The false front is very evident from the fairway.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4303/36028987302_44dff6abf7_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4303/36028987302_44dff6abf7_b.jpg)

The second is a magnificent hole if a bit narrow when the rough is up.  The play is left off the tee to gain the best angle on this legger right. An approach from the right must contend with a very deep bunker which is well hidden.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4306/36028986802_86cb0f213d_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4306/36028986802_86cb0f213d_b.jpg)

Below is the approach and a shot from behind the green.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4291/36028986962_0e272acc92_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4291/36028986962_0e272acc92_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36062255541_cb8f178ab9_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36062255541_cb8f178ab9_b.jpg)

The great opening sequence continues on the 3rd.  The confusion created on the tee has me convinced this is a great hole.  I know its very easy to leak one down the hill right and oob or hit it a driver on the screws and end up in the road where it bisects the fairway at about 300 yards out...but so what?  Such is the scarcity of inceptive design that when a hole of such originality presents itself it must be grabbed with both hands.  One can imagine children sledding down the unruly hill and nary a one remaining between the blades.  Wonderful as this is, it is the remarkable second shot which deserves all the attention it receives.     
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36062255221_f2bf0cc2b8_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36062255221_f2bf0cc2b8_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4297/36195906375_4181e51597_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4297/36195906375_4181e51597_b.jpg)

The next hole is quite possibly one of the very best short par 4s in existence and was wisely chosen by Sir Ernest Holderness for his electic eighteen holes. A head scratcher off the tee, however, unlike the 3rd, we can see all the options.  For the brave, the ideal shot is to play right of the green on top of a narrow plateau which feeds to the putting surface. The risk involved is the boundary wall can easily be carried if the shot has any hint of a push. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36062255111_caf5500ece_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36062255111_caf5500ece_b.jpg)

The aggressive play leaves this approach.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4291/36028986302_3a00e77085_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4291/36028986302_3a00e77085_b.jpg)

The simple tee shot leaves an approach similar to this, but of course one can lay-up well short this spot...it isn't recommended, but one can do it.  Anybody trying to hit the long ball without challenging the OOB has these bunkers waiting.  Only the 12th & 13th of North Berwick can rival St Enodoc's 3rd and 4th for back to back holes with such audacity, innovation and unorthodxy. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4299/36062254991_301b1fd06b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4299/36062254991_301b1fd06b_b.jpg)

One thing rarely mentioned about St Enodoc is the variety of tees which concentrate on creating width.  This is huge benefit for any club.  The 5th is one such example. The angle from the white tees is brutishly elusive, but from the daily tee its merely a difficult one-shotter. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4327/36028985882_1d31243ff0_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4327/36028985882_1d31243ff0_b.jpg)

Having played 3 and 4, most golfers would be ecstactic at the riches delivered, but St Enodoc has a further two holes which are every bit as wonderful.  Himalayas requires what it says on the tin, an heroic blind shot over a mountain of sand.  Not terribly rare it is with a driver in our hands, but with an iron and hitting to a green shrouded in rough...well, you get the full mental image.  Many times, a ball in play will win the day.  If one dares take a peak of what lies ahead....he will see the troubles that await.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4299/36062254811_eebc04b2ec_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4299/36062254811_eebc04b2ec_b.jpg)

The two bunkers used to be connected and to much better effect.  Hopefully this bunker can be restored some day.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49096374602_f2de3fda56_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49096374602_f2de3fda56_b.jpg)

A final look at one of the most celebrated holes in English golf.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4329/36062254721_8084ecd857_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4329/36062254721_8084ecd857_b.jpg)

Most feel that with #6 behind us, that the epic start has concluded.  That would be doing the seventh a great disservice.  The drive takes us over a series of dunes which isn't an onerous carry, but a foozle will surely lead to a kiss on the card. Below is the approach from the left rough.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4320/36028985392_9f1b7ddb7b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4320/36028985392_9f1b7ddb7b_b.jpg)

The 8th green with #6 and the dunes we play over for the seventh in the background.  This old photo is a reminder of how little St Enodoc has changed since the late 30s. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4291/36062254591_d810d1709e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4291/36062254591_d810d1709e_b.jpg)

The ninth is a dead straight hole which takes the golfer to the base of Brea Hill.  A man-made trench backed with a mound of spoil breaks the fairway if one is long off the tee.  This hole is often over-looked, but it is an unsung beauty which deserves high praise.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4306/36028985062_6dfd7e1f5c_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4306/36028985062_6dfd7e1f5c_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4308/36062254441_aa61765ac1_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4308/36062254441_aa61765ac1_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Sean_A on August 04, 2014, 04:13:01 PM
St Enodoc Tour Cont.

Now for the back 9 and what better place to have a controversial hole than one which often requires a wait due to the public footpath?  I find it most interesting to listen to the debate on the tee.  There usually is no consensus and if one is harsh, I will defend the old girl.  The more I play the hole, the more I am convinced it deserves the 4th spot on the St Enodoc shelf of abundant great holes.   
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4301/36062254211_8c3d5acba1_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4301/36062254211_8c3d5acba1_b.jpg)

Is it unfair?  To be honest, I don't think the answer to that question has any bearing on the merits of this hole or any other, but I will say this hole is about as tough a two-shotter as most are likely to encounter.  Once around the water one can see that the lay of the land will direct a swinging hook to the green.  The amount of right to left swing is more readily apparent from the 15th tee.  What is it they say about a day late and a dollar short?
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4314/36062254121_f9c1c67d49_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4314/36062254121_f9c1c67d49_b.jpg)

The 10 & 11 greens viewed from higher ground.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4297/36062254291_e27a4ccebc_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4297/36062254291_e27a4ccebc_b.jpg)

The 11th is a cunning hole with OBB hidden left, but it is the 12th which is one of my favourite holes on the links.  The hedge is also a clever ploy as it hides the turn of the dogleg and visually signals golfers to keep right.  While it is true that approaching from the right is easier, I am not sure it is worth trying to skirt the bunkers on the drive to earn this angle.  The lay of the land feeds directly to this pair of pits and the fairway always seems keen.  This photo reveals the dome-like green and "catchy bunker" left.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4305/36062253941_1b2f4fe4f5_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4305/36062253941_1b2f4fe4f5_b.jpg)

#s 13 & 14 run along the high end of the course on land which feels like it should be part of the neighbouring farm and indeed this was once the case.  In 1907 the club originally struck a deal which allowed play on that part of the Trenain Farm.  Despite being framed by Iron Age hedges, the 13th offers little appeal. However, any hole which affords us this view can't be criticized too harshly.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4316/36062254001_086949d06e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4316/36062254001_086949d06e_b.jpg)

The 14th is an interesting little hole.  Like the 4th, the use of poor golfing land (ie not links) to create interest and challenge is outstanding.   A turfed wall guards the green on the left and sharp run off protects the right. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4321/36028983142_0231519dfd_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4321/36028983142_0231519dfd_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36028983792_5418224f3f_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4325/36028983792_5418224f3f_b.jpg)

Behind the green.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4312/36028983402_e6f1da35af_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4312/36028983402_e6f1da35af_b.jpg)

The 15th takes us across the same chasm onto the proper links as did the 5th.  One valid criticism of St Enodoc is the similarities between the two holes.  That said, they are both earnest one-shotters and it is no great hardship to have another go. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4314/36062253351_39252c1e92_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4314/36062253351_39252c1e92_b.jpg)

The 16th used to encourage the golfer to hit it over the shelf like dune off the tee to earn an opportunity of getting home in two. While it is still beneficial to hit the long ball, only the very long can now reach this 540 yard par 5 rolling over perfect "folds and undulations". Just short of the large bunker on the right is where the old green used to be located and what a good green it was, hard on the boundary fence. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4309/36028983042_b41a88d238_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4309/36028983042_b41a88d238_b.jpg)

Behind the green.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4318/36195907345_e73765e72f_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4318/36195907345_e73765e72f_b.jpg)

The 17th is particularly difficult to hit as the front of the green is the crest of a sharp rise and fall (where the hole is located in the photo).  At nearly 200 yards, for many this hole is a par 4.  The home hole is a dandy.  The drive is not nearly as menacing as it appears due to the gathering nature of the fairway.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4321/36028987882_e8ea46d5dc_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4321/36028987882_e8ea46d5dc_b.jpg)

Once the clubhouse is squarely in sight the golfer realizes how tired he is.  However, there is one final tough shot awaiting.  This uphill approach has to be expertly judged to get near the flag.  Like the 17th, from a high point near the front of the putting surface, the green runs away from the fairway.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4328/36062253241_af175e5498_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4328/36062253241_af175e5498_b.jpg)

Taken from the house balcony.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4295/36028987662_d746d27142_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4295/36028987662_d746d27142_b.jpg)

People should be knocking down the door to play St Enodoc as it offers something for everyone.  The golf is monumental but managable for the astute rabbit.  While longer than when Braid last visited, it is pleasing to know the club has resisted pushing the tees anywhere near the 7000 yard mark.  The mainstay of Braid mixed with Fowler, Simpson and whoever designed the 10th can in hindsight only be described as inspired.  It is hard to imagine a course which packs so much into its seemingly benign length.  1*  2014

SCORECARD (daily tees)
Church Course
Par 69
6108 Yards

1. 506 !
2. 428
3. 426 !
4. 279 !!
5. 151
6. 364 !
7. 384
8. 150
9. 388
10. 452 ?!
11. 181
12. 373
13. 349
14. 350 !
15. 152
16. 539
17. 200 !
18. 436 !

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on August 05, 2014, 03:23:32 AM
Fine pics. and a real appetite whetter (a word?) for next months BUDA

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57174.0.html


There are still places available but be quick as we've promised to confirm nos. with the Clubs a month ahead.
(IM me if you want to know what to do next.)

carry on...
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Adam Lawrence on August 05, 2014, 06:01:15 AM
Paid my second visit to St Enodoc this year. First time out, you see the beauty of the place, and the famous holes hit you hard, but (for me at least) it was only seeing the course afresh that I realised just how much great golf there is.

From a pure golf perspective, I have no problem with the tenth, in fact I really like it. But the footpath, in summer especially, is terrifying - lots and lots of people walking to Daymer Bay, not paying any attention to the fact they're about five paces from your perfect landing spot. And it's not as though they are crossing the fairway - they are walking up alongside it for several hundred yards.

I never saw the old sixteenth, but for my money the new look hole is very strong. The green is a little bit modern as far its shaping is concerned, but it works extremely well.

My one real objection is the roadway in front of the 15th green. Bit rough to land a yard short of the putting surface and have the ball carom miles into the air and through the back.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Sean_A on August 05, 2014, 07:02:24 AM
Adam

RE 15, the two roads, the estuary, the field hedges and skyline all add up to a serious case of horizontalitis.  Its a good hole though  :D. 

The 10th has grown on me and now I consider it one of the pillars of St Enodoc. 

The 16th is a good hole for sure.  I thought the old version was more St Enodocian with the green hard on the boundary.  It was a fun green to have a go at.  The new green is fine, as I don't really buy into the oddball green being a no-no anyway.

I really spent time meandering around the course this time and came away more impressed than ever. 

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Jay Flemma on August 05, 2014, 07:22:39 AM
And some people were telling me to skip it when i go over next year :o ;D

Can't wait to see it!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: John Mayhugh on August 05, 2014, 07:37:13 AM
My one real objection is the roadway in front of the 15th green. Bit rough to land a yard short of the putting surface and have the ball carom miles into the air and through the back.

There's not a lot of room to be short.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/st%20enodoc/DSC02820_zps2fff0d84.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/jmayhugh/media/st%20enodoc/DSC02820_zps2fff0d84.jpg.html)


Thanks for the tour, Sean.  I was fortunate enough to spend a day there a couple of years back, and needed the experience for some of those tee shots, especially.  I played in March so avoided the footpath problems on 10.  I can see where that would be frustrating, but the hole itself didn't bother me in the least.

Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Ulrich Mayring on August 05, 2014, 07:59:30 AM
This is my second favorite course, I have Cruden Bay at #1 and North Berwick at #3, but there is not much between those three magnificent links. For good players St Enodoc certainly is the toughest test of the lot, but as Sean said, anyone will enjoy it.

Ulrich
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Mike Policano on August 05, 2014, 08:38:50 AM
Sean,

Thanks for the pics. Played there in June with hickories and loved it. I didn't realize that the area is a foodie area. Our group of 8 had one great dinner after the other. Definitely worth the trip out.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: PPallotta on August 05, 2014, 10:57:19 AM
Thanks, Sean - my first real look at Enodoc, a much more rough-hewed kind of simplicity and lay-of-the-land design than I'm used to in your profiles. Two things strike me: 1) that on some of the inland English courses your profile, I can almost imagine what the architects saw/thought as they routed/designed the courses, but here at Enodoc I can't even come close to that, i.e. seeing that heaving, rolling, almost jagged landscape, I have no idea what Braid et al saw and how they made their design decisions; and 2) Endonoc seems more like a 'private club' than just about any of the courses you profile, i.e. a course that was designed for, and probably best enjoyed by, members/those who play it often.

Peter
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Adam Lawrence on August 05, 2014, 11:06:21 AM
Peter - the odd thing is that St Enodoc in some ways is _less_ like that than most English clubs, because it's a holiday course - a very large proportion of its members don't live in the area but play there in the summer or whenever else they get down to Cornwall. That's why it's posh - north Cornwall in general, and Rock in particular, is pretty much the English equivalent of the Hamptons, or Cape Cod, or whichever of those northeastern summer resorts is more old money.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: David_Tepper on August 05, 2014, 12:04:59 PM
Sean -

Thanks for your always fine photo tour. I played St. Endoc in 2002 and enjoyed it very much.

DT
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: PPallotta on August 05, 2014, 12:07:16 PM
Adam - thank you, that's interesting to know. I suppose that behind my (false) assumption was the fact that, on first viewing, I found the course more visually 'confusing' (or at least 'complex') than I do most of the courses Sean profiles; and I associate that with a private/members club more than a public/resort one.

Peter
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: John Mayhugh on August 05, 2014, 12:38:18 PM
Peter,
Having played a number of courses that Sean has profiled, I think he does as good a job introducing a course with photos as I've seen.  Some of these prior courses may have looked simpler to you, but that has much to do with the way he highlights relevant features.  There's plenty of quirk and confusion out there on the Arble tour. 
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on August 05, 2014, 01:35:13 PM
Seaside Golf by Sir John Betjeman


How straight it flew, how long it flew,
It clear'd the rutty track
And soaring, disappeared from view
Beyond the bunker's back –
A glorious, sailing, bounding drive
That made me glad I was alive.

And down the fairway, far along
 It glowed a lonely white;
I played an iron sure and strong
And clipp'd it out of sight,
And spite of grassy banks between
 I knew I'd find it on the green.

And so I did. It lay content
Two paces from the pin;
A steady putt and then it went
Oh, most surely in.
The very turf rejoiced to see
 That quite unprecedented three.

Ah! Seaweed smells from sandy caves
And thyme and mist in whiffs,
In-coming tide, Atlantic waves
Slapping the sunny cliffs,
Lark song and sea sounds in the air
And splendour, splendour everywhere
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: PPallotta on August 05, 2014, 01:57:13 PM
John - and thank you too. But I'm struck by the fact that "there's plenty of quirk and confusion out there on the Arble tour", since the Man himself seems the very epitome of clear and straight-forward middle class respectability!!  :)

Tony - thanks for sharing that lovely bit of writing (which for a few moment I actually thought you had penned).   
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Sean_A on August 05, 2014, 02:48:29 PM
Pietro

I am surprised you think I am adverse to funk.  In any case, once on the property, the routing strikes me as needs must.  Thus there are some key linking holes, of which 4 and 10 are sublime.  Below is the poem from which I nicked the title of my tour.


Come on! Come on! This hillock hides the spire,
Now that one and now none. As winds about
The burnished path through lady’s-finger, thyme,
And bright varieties of saxifrage,
So grows the tinny tenor faint or loud
All all things draw toward St. Enodoc.
Come on! Come on! and it is five to three.

Still, Come on! come on!
The tinny tenor. Hover-flies remain
More than a moment on a ragwort bunch,
And people’s passing shadows don’t disturb
Red Admirals basking with their wings apart.
A mile of sunny, empty sand away,
A mile of shallow pools and lugworm casts.
Safe, faint and surfy, laps the lowest tide.

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 05, 2014, 02:56:25 PM
Sean,

Terrific.

So nice to see photographs of holes, especially green-sites, taken from angles not usually seen, such as side views and rear views.

This permits a very different appreciation of the intricacies of a hole. Very different to when simply viewed from straight on. I've not been to StE, yet, but I believe these photos better help me understand why you and others speak and write so highly of it.

The three photos at the start of the tour plus the one later on also give an understanding of the area, a nice touch.

atb
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Jim Nelson on August 05, 2014, 03:04:59 PM
Thanks for the great piks and commentary.  I played there this May and loved the course, but then I like quirky.  I'd also like to enter a bit of commentary in that the folks there have a sense of humor.  At least two sprinkler heads do not have yardage numbers but rather say "just hit it!" and "You must be kidding."  No reason to add why I was looking at them, but I think they were on #10 and #18.  I took picture but have no idea of how to load them up.  Any trip west of London should include this classic if at all possible. 
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC Dos
Post by: Frank Pont on August 05, 2014, 05:16:50 PM
Played St Enedoc as part of a tour to Cornwall a month ago (other courses were Trvose, Saunton and Perranporth).
See http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/England/St-Enedoc/ (http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/England/St-Enedoc/) for another extensive photo tour.

Agree with Sean that the course and coastline are very scenic. It reminded me a bit of the Cruden bay setup where you play 8-9 holes, then make a transition to another remote part of the property and then weave your way back to the main part of the pproperty and then head back to the clubhouse.

Also agree the first 9 holes are world class, and the last three are very good as well. However I found the in between holes very disappointing, really out of character with the rest of the course and also less strategically interesting.

I would be playing a lot of 12 hole rounds if I were a member at St Enedoc......
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 05, 2014, 05:23:56 PM
I forgot to post this ditty, a parody of Seaside Golf by a member of St Enodoc.

How low it flew, how left it flew,
It hit the dry-stone wall
And plunging, disappeared from view
A shining brand new ball –
I’d hit the damned thing on the head
It made me wish that I were dead.

And up the fairway, steep and long,
I mourned my gloomy plight;
I played an iron sure and strong,
A fraction to the right
I knew that when I reached my ball
I’d find it underneath the wall.

And so I did. I chipped it low
And thinned it past the pin
And to and fro, and to and fro
I tried to get it in;
Until, intoning oaths obscene
I holed it out in seventeen.

Ah! Seaweed smells from sandy caves
They really get me down;
In-coming tides, Atlantic waves
I wish that I could drown
And Sloane Street voices in the air
And black retrievers everywhere.

Sir Robin Butler

Jim

Yes, "You must be kidding" is emblazened at the start of the 18th fairway.  I believe that back in the day, there was a bunker in this area.

atb

St Enodoc makes a strong case for best course in England, yes, its that good.

Frank

I wouldn't say the back nine is disappointing, but it is different in character.  Don't give up on #s 10, 12, 14 & 15.  They are better than first sightings suggest. 

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ryan Coles on August 05, 2014, 05:32:00 PM
Come friendly bombs and fall on the 10th.

Lovely photos and a great write up. Agree with Frank that the middle section does detract slightly. It doesn't strike me as particularly quirky (10th aside which is just a poor hole rather than quirky tbh) certainly not compared to some of the other seaside courses in that area. It is probably the most charming course I've played though. Wouldn't describe it as posh either (if google still shows that word is in existence) just a proper golf club.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Philip Gawith on August 05, 2014, 05:45:04 PM
Thanks for wonderful tour of a great course Sean. Brings back happy memories!

Sir Robin Butler was the Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service when Thatcher, Major and Blair were prime ministers. A very decent, amusing and interesting man.

It is not a "posh" course but the club has a very high self-regard.

Philip
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Greg Taylor on August 05, 2014, 06:09:07 PM
Come friendly bombs and fall on the 10th - made me chuckle. Well played Sir!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: David_Elvins on August 05, 2014, 06:45:53 PM
Great write up, Sean.

The unique holes and features at St Enodoc are amazing.

One of the few criticisms of the course for me is that the course plays very straight.  There did not seem to be many holes where the drive needed to be aimed anywhere but straight down the fairway and only a few fairways angled to the tee.  In particular, 1,2,7,9,18 play very straight with others slightly less so.  Any thoughts on that from repeat play?

I also think there is no need to airbrush out some of the poor stuff on the course.  

The 13th green, where an original, unique green has been replaced by a cut and paste 1990s style green that bares no resemblance to the other greens on the course is a disgrace.  Do you have any photos of the original 13th?

(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/st_enodoc_zpsdafdaf27.jpg)
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Frank Pont on August 06, 2014, 05:10:49 PM

St Enodoc makes a strong case for best course in England, yes, its that good.


Sean,

you must be kidding? If not we live in different universes  ;)

But seriously, I will grant you that the front 9 is in the English top 5-10
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 06, 2014, 06:25:22 PM
David

I don't see much wrong with four straight holes when there are holes like 3, 4, 6, 10, 13 & 14.  I don't count #2 as straight because it definitely pays to be on the left of the fairway as the green tucks behind the dune.  

Frank

I highy value originality, great use of poor terrain/land, humpty bumpty terrain and funk.  St Enodoc has everytihing on the menu and a good sensible set of greens to boot.  

Ciao

  
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: ward peyronnin on August 06, 2014, 10:15:59 PM
St E is a treasure.

I do not understand the criticism of 10. The elevated tee presents a very strong visual of two distinctly varied sides: massive slopes and a water meadow. If it was flatter ground and bunkered properly would the tighteness be more acceptable to some? How can a hole be more visually stimulating? It is hard but so what

Sure it is heroic but one could play five iron twice and wedge and get past it for bogie.

And even Cruden Bay has a stretch of breather holes. 9,10,11,12 or not particularly awe inspiring and they have no 12theC church around which one plays. And look at the right side of the green of 14 or 15 ; fabulous.

I am in love with this place
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 07, 2014, 03:21:05 AM
I agree Chez Wardo, to complain about a few holes with such an abundance of riches on offer is churlish.  No course is perfect.  And to be fair, the 13th isn't a bad hole when viewed on its own.  Its just an awkward hole and out of place at St E.  The 11th too is a decent hole and a very good change of pace from #10.  St E has a remarkable rhythm to its holes and I can't honestly say there is anything close to a poor hole on the course. 

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Mark Pearce on August 07, 2014, 03:42:47 AM
Have to say that this and the Perranporth thread have begun to get the juices flowing for the upcoming BUDA.  It does sound as if plenty of ammunition might be needed, though, particularly at the end of a wet warm summer.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 07, 2014, 03:54:15 AM
Have to say that this and the Perranporth thread have begun to get the juices flowing for the upcoming BUDA.  It does sound as if plenty of ammunition might be needed, though, particularly at the end of a wet warm summer.

Mark

If the weather holds, you lot should be in for a treat.  The rough is nearly there for the entire course.  Its turning crispy whispy as I type.  There is talk of a heat wave and if it materializes the rough will toast out completely.  The greens now are absolutely perfect speed and firmness.  Maybe 9.5 /10, no ball marks and rolling dead true.  In truth, Perranporth is in good nick as well.  The greens are slower and slightly bumpy here and there (to be expected of a £35 course), but overall very good.  The fairways on both courses are superb.  The problem at Perranporth will be if there is too long a dry spell.  That course will completely bake out making for extremely sporty conditions.  When combined with the eccentric design the two may cause consternation in the ranks because Peranporth isn't "big enough" to get really keen.  Anyway, it should be a ton of fun.

Ciao   
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Simon Pain on August 07, 2014, 03:59:27 AM
As a St Enodoc Committee Member I have read with great interest all the posts and what an excellent write up and photos Sean. I need to consult our Club historian as the authorship of each of the holes as they now are. A few quick points, the 16th was lengthened by 85 yards going from 475 to 560 to make a very challenging hole particularly into the prevailing wind. The 13th has been our problem child for some while as the original green had to go as there were few pin positions since it had sunk so far to the right. You made no comment Sean over the view from the 18th tee so I must assume that you did not play it from the top tee with the breathtaking views of the Camel Estuary - shame as it is something else and our best marketing tool!.

The issue of "new" greens being out of character with the existing is a trap that many architects seem to fall into (David Steele's at North Hants come to mind). The best way to view St Enodoc is the drone helicopter flyovers on our website which start at head height at the back of each tee and it shows that the greens are all round except the new ones which I never realised despite having been a Member for 30 years! I brefly spoke to Mike Policano as he tackled the 7th with his hickories - brave man!.

The comment is often made that the Church holes 10 to 14 are out of keeping as yes the land is more farm than links but so be it and subject to my comments above over 13 none the worse for it and does give some variety, I have never come across a hole like our 14th. It has been interesting to read all the individual comments of likes and dislikes of individual holes which only proves that we are all different as are all golf courses. In all the posts everyone seems to have loved the course of which we are proud to be the current custodians and a tremendous amount of work has taken place over the last 10 years to raise the standard of the course particularly the greens and to give a friendly welcome to all our visitors. This year having made the Golf Digest World Top 100 we have seen many more visitors from the United States which has been most rewarding.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 07, 2014, 05:11:47 AM
Simon

Thanks for your insider comments. 

It seems everytime I go back, the 13th looks slightly different.  I think the hole has been improving, but its hard to like against the backdrop of the other holes.  I will adamantly disagree with folks who think the 14th is poor hole.  The greensite is world class and the use of the wall is excellent.  No complaints from me except there are two steep climbers in a row, but I put that all on the 13th  ;)  I did "discover" what I think is a new 18th tee and I played from there.  The view is very fine...either direction. I also noticed that it must be quite close to a path because onlookers were close enough to pick my pocket!   

The 16th though, I still don't get it. 

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Mark Pearce on August 07, 2014, 06:18:21 AM
Simon,

Thanks for your contribution.  I'm very keen to see St Enodoc next month.  Will you be around in September (11th and 12th) when BUDA is at St Enodoc?  If so, I'm sure we'd all be delighted to meet you so you can put faces to some of the names you have seen here.

I did smile, by the way, at the idea of the bespectacled cricketing bank clerk of the mid-70s designing greens at North Hants!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Frank Pont on August 07, 2014, 09:15:31 AM

The issue of "new" greens being out of character with the existing is a trap that many architects seem to fall into (David Steele's at North Hants come to mind). The best way to view St Enodoc is the drone helicopter flyovers on our website which start at head height at the back of each tee and it shows that the greens are all round except the new ones which I never realised despite having been a Member for 30 years! I brefly spoke to Mike Policano as he tackled the 7th with his hickories - brave man!.

The comment is often made that the Church holes 10 to 14 are out of keeping as yes the land is more farm than links but so be it and subject to my comments above over 13 none the worse for it and does give some variety, I have never come across a hole like our 14th. It has been interesting to read all the individual comments of likes and dislikes of individual holes which only proves that we are all different as are all golf courses. In all the posts everyone seems to have loved the course of which we are proud to be the current custodians and a tremendous amount of work has taken place over the last 10 years to raise the standard of the course particularly the greens and to give a friendly welcome to all our visitors. This year having made the Golf Digest World Top 100 we have seen many more visitors from the United States which has been most rewarding.

Simon,

you should be very proud to be the custodians of such a beautiful, interesting and fun course to play. I do not think that there are many courses in GBI that match the scenic views of St Enedoc on a sunny day. As well our (Dutch) group had a very warm and friendly reception as well when we visited last month. Overall I cannot think of many other courses I would rather be on a sunny summer day.

Your point on "new greens being out of character on classic courses" illustrates how this is the ultimate test of the skills of a restoring golf architect. However the best in our business are very capable of building greens that blend in seamlessly with the original greens. That is why I always recommend that clubs go and see the actual work of a restoring architect before they hire him.

My issue with holes 10-15 is not so much that they are different in character or less good than the other 12 world class holes you have; they are in a different and often difficult terrain which effectively puts a limit on the potential of these holes. However my issue is that a number of them (particularly 11,12 and 13) could still be so much better visually, strategically and from a variety point of view, than they are now, thereby actually achieving their potential.

Again my compliments and please continue your careful and steady improvements of your classic course!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ben Stephens on August 08, 2014, 02:31:52 AM
Simon/Sean,

Have there been any thoughts of putting the 14th tee on the left of the 13th - I know it would make the hole straighter surely this would be a tighter drive with OOB on the left this would give it more variety rather than just have 2 uphill holes.

Are there any other 'figure 8' greens on the course with the exception of 13 and 16 which are new greens. By memory most of the older greens at St Enodoc are Oval shaped. Surely the course architect who did the work should have made it more oval shaped to reflect the older green so the new greens would have effortlessly blended in with the rest of the course.

Luffenham Heath has the same issue - 2 new greens were built but nothing like the character of the older greens which is a bit odd in my view.

Having seen the pics the juices are flowing again looking forward to playing St Enodoc as my last round was 5 under front nine and 12 over on the back nine :))

Cheers Ben
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 08, 2014, 02:48:16 AM
Ben

Having the 14th tee left of the 13th green would leave a very difficult drive as the land moves seriously right.  The present tee allows the golfer to bang a drive into the hill and hold.  Plus, I think the view of the church would be compromised somewhat. 

It would be nice if the green shaping was more varied, but one way the design gets away with it is there aren't many greenside bunkers to shape the greens around.  Even though roundish, most of the greens have interesting questions to pose or there is enough heartache/luck involved in getting to some greens that they needn't be extravagant.  From memory

1 & 2 are plateau/domed
3 runs away from play
4 runs left
5 is plateau
6 well, who cares
7 is a bit more shaped with some lower ground shy of the green
8 have to carry bunkers/plateau
9 is a funny green because its plateauish but runs back to front and off at the sides
10 has a cool spine running down the middle very difficult putting from rear of the green to front
11 is quite flat, but does move a bit away from the tee
12 is domed/pleateau
13 is quite sloped to back to front
14 is a bit of a bowl green
15 is a sidehiller, very tough target
16 is new ad an interesting green with a cool rear shelf near the rear bunker
17 is very cool front to backer
18 is plateau

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ben Stephens on August 08, 2014, 06:26:07 AM
Surely they can widen the fairway and the further right you go the harder and longer the shot to the green at the 14th which would make it a better hole in theory. Also it would bring the OOB into play more off the tee. I can remember parts of this hole but not the severity of the slope on the fairway - will find out next month. :)

It is one of my favourite courses that I have played


Ben

Having the 14th tee left of the 13th green would leave a very difficult drive as the land moves seriously right.  The present tee allows the golfer to bang a drive into the hill and hold.  Plus, I think the view of the church would be compromised somewhat. 

It would be nice if the green shaping was more varied, but one way the design gets away with it is there aren't many greenside bunkers to shape the greens around.  Even though roundish, most of the greens have interesting questions to pose or there is enough heartache/luck involved in getting to some greens that they needn't be extravagant.  From memory

1 & 2 are plateau/domed
3 runs away from play
4 runs left
5 is plateau
6 well, who cares
7 is a bit more shaped with some lower ground shy of the green
8 have to carry bunkers/plateau
9 is a funny green because its plateauish but runs back to front and off at the sides
10 has a cool spine running down the middle very difficult putting from rear of the green to front
11 is quite flat, but does move a bit away from the tee
12 is domed/pleateau
13 is quite sloped to back to front
14 is a bit of a bowl green
15 is a sidehiller, very tough target
16 is new ad an interesting green with a cool rear shelf near the rear bunker
17 is very cool front to backer
18 is plateau

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Adam Lawrence on August 08, 2014, 06:36:59 AM
I rather like the tee shot on 14. It really doesn't have anything much in common with 13 - which is just a biff up the hill - because it has a nice diagonal aspect and gives a good range of positioning options. I can't possibly imagine that moving the tee above 13 green would make the hole better.

Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Simon Pain on August 09, 2014, 11:40:26 AM
Wow ! well thank you for all your most interesting comments. Let me answer in the order that they were made. Sean you are correct that the view from the 13th tee has altered as we have tinkered with the fairway cut lines every since we first replaced the green. I would stand on the tee and wonder what goes through a visitor's mind as to what the hole is trying to do. With the current view I am happy that it at least looks logical from there - more on 13 anon. Mark I will be around 11th / 12th September as we have some neighbours from Pinehurst staying so may not have too much time but contact me by email (sipain@aol.com) and we will see what we can arrange. Well spotted on the Donald Steele not David you must be a Brit, I realised as I walked up the 16th the day I posted the reply my mistake it never looked quite right at the time.

As to the comments Frank about the visual appeal of 11, 12 and 13 we have done quite a bit as Peter McEvoy altered the bunkers a bit on 11 added the fairway "signpost" bunkers on 12 ,13 and 14 for that matter.  On exactly that point we also had a go at planting to the right of the 12 and 13 in that bit of Indian Country but none of the plants / shrubs survived; we must try again. We have however planted gorse bushes behind the 13th green which are beginning to look very good. As to altering them strategically try playing 11 off the White or even further back Blue tee into the wind - it does not want any change its quite tough enough. Actually on that point 11 is the only hole on the course that is significantly harder off the white rather than the yellow tee for not only is it longer but the angle aims you at the OOB.  12 I have no complaints on strategy as it took me years to work out how to club to the green as I and many others always found it the most difficult approach shot on the course to club. The answer is that it is more uphill than you think and it is one more club than whatever you have chosen making allowance for the wind direction.

The round greens Ben! Sorry but they ARE all round bar the 2 new ones 13 and 16, if you don't believe me look at the flyovers on the website. With all the undulations etc I never realised that they were. Now if you want to make the 14th unplayable in the prevailing South West wind move the tee above the 13th green as there is no way you could possibly keep the ball on the fairway and you can not widen to the right. Sorry but I think it is a great hole as it is and one of the most wind affected on the course.

Keep the comments coming!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 09, 2014, 02:21:02 PM
......try playing 11 off the White or even further back Blue tee into the wind - it does not want any change its quite tough enough.

A very good general point this, not just StE related, and an aspect that's easily missed when normally playing courses as a green-fee paying visitor when, in most cases, you are required to play from the yellow 'daily' tees. And of course it's not just a distance matter either, it's usually angles and carries etc as well. One of the best aspects of playing in club/regional Open Competitions in the UK is getting the opportunity to play from the white or even further back tees.
atb
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: John Chilver-Stainer on August 12, 2014, 12:40:49 PM
At risk of being a "killjoy" - but it has to be said.

The greens at St.Enocdoc look overwatered and overmaintained for a "true" links golf course. If that's an Agrostis Stoloniofera green then the trending to a soft green is inevitable.

Compare the photos of 2006, 2009 and 2014
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ben Lovett on August 12, 2014, 02:12:42 PM
Some of the best links greens I've ever seen, in person not commenting on photos!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ben Lovett on August 12, 2014, 02:14:27 PM
Pure fescue sward! But what do I know!!!!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: John Chilver-Stainer on August 12, 2014, 02:34:31 PM
Pure fescue sward! But what do I know!!!!

Thank you Ben for that recent "on the spot" information - that's very comforting it's a pure fescue sward. (I assume you know that !!)

However it's discomforting to see how glowing green it is - hopefully not on a regular basis otherwise they'll lose their pure sward rapidly.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ben Lovett on August 12, 2014, 02:51:51 PM
John,
15 years career Greenkeeper, and trust me Scott is very good!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on August 12, 2014, 07:44:15 PM
John

The greens were in very good order.  Not quite as firm as they could be, but very little sign of ball marks/bruising and they rolled true at a sensible speed.  If only all greens were this good. In my experience, very few courses have better conditioned greens.

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Simon Pain on August 13, 2014, 03:28:43 AM
Well C-S your comments on the greens deserve a reply. Firstly looking at the photos to which you refer reflects the quality of the photos rather than the greens as the greens are dramatically harder and faster than they were in 2009. Some years ago the Club realised that the greens had become soft and slow and they needed returning to proper links greens. The services of John O'Sullivan, probably Europe's top golf course agronomist, have been employed on a quarterly basis to advise us on what to do. His instructions have been faithfully carried ouit by Scott Gibson our Course Manager. On his last visit about 6 weeks ago John said he felt that they were now as good as any links greens in the U.K. running at a sensible speed and amazingly true.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Adam Lawrence on August 13, 2014, 03:58:01 AM
When I was there in June the greens were perfect; as Ben says, as pure a fescue sward as I've seen, and rolling as true as you could wish. Our group all agreed they were as good a set of links greens (condition wise) as we had ever seen).
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Frank Pont on August 13, 2014, 04:01:33 AM
When I was there in June the greens were perfect; as Ben says, as pure a fescue sward as I've seen, and rolling as true as you could wish. Our group all agreed they were as good a set of links greens (condition wise) as we had ever seen).
+1
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: John Chilver-Stainer on August 13, 2014, 01:00:29 PM
Thank you Ben, Sean, Frank, Adam and Simon P. for your praising endorsements of St.Enocdoc G.C.'s greens, and as I said it's comforting to know that the greens are pure fescue sward.

However to beg the question - just because the greens are in „perfect“ condition and running true, does not hide the fact that the greens look overwatered due to their very green appearance on the 2014 photos.

As we all know fescue does not thrive on too much water, too much water encourages other grasses and the firmness of the green can be compromised.

Having said that I wish St.Enocdoc G.C. and Scott the head greenkeeper all the best with their classic course and congratulations on achieving a pure fescue sward.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ben Lovett on August 13, 2014, 01:49:37 PM
I wouldn't tie a green sward to overwatering. Newer ( technology) chemicals help with this
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 13, 2014, 03:01:42 PM
An observation, though not particularly related to St-E.

This season I've been noticing greens on a few UK courses that look 'greener' and haven't felt as firm under the foot as expected even during the hotter/drier period we had a couple of weeks ago.

When I've enquired I've been told that the greens are being cut a little bit higher than previously but that a 'greens-iron' is then being used to increase the speed.

The future? Or just a passing fad?

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRbzpRdhc0uguaJraDilWJ37u6SMFk-Y1B89avqgWqdFg12HWMvQ)

atb
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ben Lovett on August 14, 2014, 12:27:32 AM
Another factor could be the additional use of wetting agents which is creeping into links golf management, this often leads to a greener wetter looking sward
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Lou_Duran on September 17, 2014, 04:35:21 PM
Simon,

Thanks for your warm welcome this past Thursday and for your club's outstanding hospitality in hosting the Buda.  I enjoyed meeting you and appreciate your great interest and pride in your course.  It would be a great privilege to be a member at St. Edonoc, a club I hope to visit again in the not too distant future.

I particularly enjoyed the first four holes on the course and the formidable closing three (#16 with the new green which fits the land well and the extra yardage requiring three well-hit, thoughtful shots, and contrasting nicely with the other 5, the shorter #1 going in nearly opposite direction).  #10 might be an even better hole if they extended the rough line up the hill to the right and mowed it (the hill/mound) to fairway height, perhaps grow a secondary rough near the creek/estuary on the left to prevent some fairly good shots from being overly penalized, and cutting back the tree/brush line also on the left to give partial visibility to the green.  My vote for less notable holes are #7 which played relatively easy with the unusual winds we had last week, and 13 which climbs so sharply.  I would not change either one.

For those who enjoy travel and playing great courses, a visit to St. Edonoc is a must.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Lynn_Shackelford on September 18, 2014, 12:41:15 PM
Simon

I too echo Lou's comments above.

Would love to hear the thoughts and process behind lengthening the 16th at St. Enodoc.  I would enjoy any pictures of the old green.  If you are wondering, I am not a proponent of the new longer hole.  The green however is quite interesting.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on September 18, 2014, 01:28:20 PM
Lynn

I have some old pix of the 16th green, but they seem to be lost.  I always thought of 10 and 16 as two sides of a coin...both being half par holes with possibly the 16th being the easier of the two.  The green wasn't as interesting s the current version, but it was on the OOB line for the brave of heart.  I still think its a great shame the hole was changed.  Still, St E is comfortably my favourite course in the West Country.

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Bryan Izatt on September 18, 2014, 02:00:01 PM
Lynn,

Here is a photo from the David Scaletti feature interview from 2008 that I believe shows the old 16th green.  In the wind we played I don't think that the extra yardage was required, but then I'm no young flat belly.  I wonder how Ben played the hole?  The new green does look more interesting and challenging than the old one.

(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/DSSt-Enodoc-16.jpg)


Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Lynn_Shackelford on September 18, 2014, 02:05:08 PM
Thanks Bryan.  It does appear that the right middle of the green is close to the edge of the cliff.  The green brings into play one of my pet peeves, having to walk backwards to get to the next tee.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Paul_Turner on September 19, 2014, 06:37:39 AM
Great photo showing the contours of the old 16th green,  blends in much better than the MCEvoy effort.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on September 19, 2014, 06:47:13 AM
Great photo showing the contours of the old 16th green,  blends in much better than the MCEvoy effort.

Paul

I agree.  The old green may not have been as interesting (but I think its placement was miles better), but it fit better with St E and the other greens.  The new 16th strikes me as a slog hole now whereas the old version  had some charm. It was lovely to come over the brow of the dune and see the green sitting there, cajoling golfers to have a go.

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on September 21, 2014, 05:00:49 PM
I've been thinking hard about St Enedoc.  I do think it's in the top 5 (Links) courses I've played in England but frankly I was hoping it would challenge for No1. For me it didn't and I've set out why below.  But Adam and James have said returning improved thier regard for the course, so I hope to return soon and perhpas move my feelings from respect to love.


You have to respect such a fine and varied colectin of holes. The 15th is perhaps the best side slope hole I've played and the wind we hd helped me drive the 4th, got  to love that.  Others have summed up the strengths well and I don't dispute thatere's fantastic golf to be had.


It was with a sense of relief whne I opened up this tread again and saw the mixed colours in Sean's photo's.  Thats not what we were presented with. It was when I reched the moguls on the 7th hole that I saw the first bit of grass that had any brown on them! IN Septemebr. The first hole is a beautiful links dream, all ripling fairways and then you crest the ridge with  water lies below you.  But the journey you  take from there to 18 is a long one and at tiems it felt like we'd gone far from the sea. Mark Pearce and I both failed to putt up the face of 14, and the broader leaf grasses there are present in many areas just off the green. Excessive runoff?  I've played 14 different Links courses this year and the ground game was most severely compromised at St Enedoc. Adam praises the pure strain of the Fescue greens but to me they looked a bit weird!   Never seen that on a links course before.  They putted great but they are the only times this year I've had to repair pitchmars on a links green.  Add to this the abundant and varied vegitation that exists just off the fairways and I found the whole effect disconcerting. (Anyone have a picture of the sunflowers to the right of the 4th tee?) .  In order to minimise the inland feel of the holes looping round the chuch the Club should be encoraging links grases and cutting back the trees in order to maintian the feeling of a links journey.

Re the watering. It was on both days when we arrived. If you are going to charge somoe £100 then can't it be done overnight?   There is no way we could have played the 3rd hole on the green - luckily the hole was conceeded before we reached it.


The effect was as if the Disney Corp were in charge of presentation and we were given not what a liks traditionally looks like but a new improved and greener version.  I am now worried that when I do return these practices will have done lasting damge.  Here's hoping I'm wrong.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ryan Coles on September 21, 2014, 05:12:17 PM
I've been thinking hard about St Enedoc.  I do think it's in the top 5 (Links) courses I've played in England but frankly I was hoping it would challenge for No1. For me it didn't and I've set out why below.  But Adam and James have said returning improved thier regard for the course, so I hope to return soon and perhpas move my feelings from respect to love.


You have to respect such a fine and varied colectin of holes. The 15th is perhaps the best side slope hole I've played and the wind we hd helped me drive the 4th, got  to love that.  Others have summed up the strengths well and I don't dispute thatere's fantastic golf to be had.


It was with a sense of relief whne I opened up this tread again and saw the mixed colours in Sean's photo's.  Thats not what we were presented with. It was when I reched the moguls on the 7th hole that I saw the first bit of grass that had any brown on them! IN Septemebr. The first hole is a beautiful links dream, all ripling fairways and then you crest the ridge with  water lies below you.  But the journey you  take from there to 18 is a long one and at tiems it felt like we'd gone far from the sea. Mark Pearce and I both failed to putt up the face of 14, and the broader leaf grasses there are present in many areas just off the green. Excessive runoff?  I've played 14 different Links courses this year and the ground game was most severely compromised at St Enedoc. Adam praises the pure strain of the Fescue greens but to me they looked a bit weird!   Never seen that on a links course before.  They putted great but they are the only times this year I've had to repair pitchmars on a links green.  Add to this the abundant and varied vegitation that exists just off the fairways and I found the whole effect disconcerting. (Anyone have a picture of the sunflowers to the right of the 4th tee?) .  In order to minimise the inland feel of the holes looping round the chuch the Club should be encoraging links grases and cutting back the trees in order to maintian the feeling of a links journey.

Re the watering. It was on both days when we arrived. If you are going to charge somoe £100 then can't it be done overnight?   There is no way we could have played the 3rd hole on the green - luckily the hole was conceeded before we reached it.


The effect was as if the Disney Corp were in charge of presentation and we were given not what a liks traditionally looks like but a new improved and greener version.  I am now worried that when I do return these practices will have done lasting damge.  Here's hoping I'm wrong.

When had they done autumn greens maintenance? Could they have been washing in top dressing?
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on September 21, 2014, 08:04:58 PM
Spangles

It would seem most links look green this fall.  St E was literally 3-4 days away from perfection in early August (and in very good nick) and then we started to get some rain and temps didn't get get very high.  Maybe there are watering issues as well, don't know.  Burnham is a lush mess these past few weeks...very disappointing condition.   There are some pix from last year mixed and the difference is obvious...same for Perranporth.  I preferred the more mellow links I encountered this year, especially at P'porth.  

All I can say is part of the wonder of golf courses is to see them over and over and be astounded at how different they can play...and thats as it should be assuming its the weather driving the conditions.  This is also why conditions shouldn't drive your opinion too much unless you are familiar with the course over many years or it exceptional.

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on September 22, 2014, 03:45:48 AM
Spangles

It would seem most links look green this fall.  St E was literally 3-4 days away from perfection in early August (and in very good nick) and then we started to get some rain and temps didn't get get very high.  Maybe there are watering issues as well, don't know.  Burnham is a lush mess these past few weeks...very disappointing condition.   There are some pix from last year mixed and the difference is obvious...same for Perranporth.  I preferred the more mellow links I encountered this year, especially at P'porth.  

All I can say is part of the wonder of golf courses is to see them over and over and be astounded at how different they can play...and thats as it should be assuming its the weather driving the conditions.  This is also why conditions shouldn't drive your opinion too much unless you are familiar with the course over many years or it exceptional.

Ciao

In which case you must have very different links in England to those we have in Ireland...

Almost all of ours are beautifully browned out at present...
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Sean_A on September 22, 2014, 03:54:23 AM
Spangles

It would seem most links look green this fall.  St E was literally 3-4 days away from perfection in early August (and in very good nick) and then we started to get some rain and temps didn't get get very high.  Maybe there are watering issues as well, don't know.  Burnham is a lush mess these past few weeks...very disappointing condition.   There are some pix from last year mixed and the difference is obvious...same for Perranporth.  I preferred the more mellow links I encountered this year, especially at P'porth.  

All I can say is part of the wonder of golf courses is to see them over and over and be astounded at how different they can play...and thats as it should be assuming its the weather driving the conditions.  This is also why conditions shouldn't drive your opinion too much unless you are familiar with the course over many years or it exceptional.

Ciao

In which case you must have very different links in England to those we have in Ireland...

Almost all of ours are beautifully browned out at present...

Yes, very different links and different weather.

Ciao
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Mark Pearce on September 22, 2014, 04:54:13 AM
I thought the greens at St Enodoc were excellent and didn't see a pitch mark in three rounds there.  They were very green but played fine.  I was surprised to see the fairways being watered both days we were they but they did appear to have just fed something, there were white granules visible in places.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Bryan Izatt on September 23, 2014, 01:14:43 AM

The sprinklers were on  when we played the 10th.  Only one at a time though.  The one below was sprinkling the rough, which seemed a bit silly to me.  It didn't seem to me to be related to greens maintenance.

I thought the greens played pretty firm, while the surrounds were somewhat slower.  Simon told us that the club was really committed to maintaining an excellent playing field.  Perhaps that excellence is a little too green for most of out tastes.

When we reached the 10th green, the sprinkler below shut off, but Steve had the misfortune of standing astride another sprinkler head as it fired up on the church side of the green.   :o

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/15087714228_354f985831_c.jpg)
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Lou_Duran on September 23, 2014, 10:35:19 AM
I thought the greens at St Enodoc were excellent and didn't see a pitch mark in three rounds there.  They were very green but played fine.  I was surprised to see the fairways being watered both days we were they but they did appear to have just fed something, there were white granules visible in places.

I agree with Mark, though there were a few places where the approaches were unexpectedly soft (e.g. # 9 right side, #14, left side).  All-in-all, I thought that the maintenance meld was fine.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Simon Pain on September 23, 2014, 11:40:45 AM
Well I have really enjoyed the Buda Boys' comments and have a few replies. Lou finding the 7th easy was true as the wind was helpful but with the wind in the usual South West direction it is a brute to get on in 2. Generally you seemed to prefer the old 16th hole but like the new green better which is quite the opposite to the Members view! The reason the hole was lengthened by McEvoy was that it was a very easy 475 yard Par 5 and the closing stretch needed strenghtening which was achieved as the last 3 holes are now memorable. Many was the time on the old 16th that after a good drive I had played a terrible second shot and STILL walked off with a 5 which I always thought was quite wrong; now I am absolutely delighted to walk off with a 5 at any time! Yes I liked the old green but I blow hot and cold over the ridge on the left side of the new one as it limits sensible pin positions.

Tony and the watering; some good points but I must firstly correct him as the green fee is only £75 not £100, quite a difference and an easy mistake to make on such a good course! In the Spring we had a lightning strike by the 9th green which has done about £70,000 of damage to the computer controlled watering control system and it is awaiting replacement hopefully paid by the insurers but the arguements go on. Thankfully it is cobbled up and does just about work and we can water but we can not do in the night as it now all has to be operated manually. We only have a limited capacity of water for the fairways as we can only refill the reservoir in the winter months - don't ask me why as it is bonkers for in Summer the water just runs out onto the beach. Generally we do not water the fairways at all other than areas which have suffered very hard wear or if it is really dry and then just to preserve the root system which is does very well. We want hard fast fairways and really do not mind what colour they are. Our Agronomist Adviser John O'Sullivan on his last visit 3 months ago said that the fairways badly needed scarifying, tining and feeding all of which was done shortly before your visit and yes the white granules were the fertiliser which by use of the watering system has now been watered in. I have to say that the fairways already look very different and better than they did during your visit.

The weather, not human intevention, is the real determinant of the colour of the course other than the greens; myths run round the club about what we do to the course some Members believe that we put fertiliser in the rough to promote growth when it is really lush but as with most of it it is Mother Nature who decides what the course looks like particularly in Summer. As to the Sunflowers yes they are pretty but a good idea went a bit wrong. With the farmers approval we cut back the sight line off the 4th White tee and then genrally cleaned up the surrounding area. Th idea of some wild flowers was good (as we did in the marsh on the 5th to cover over some rather bad work of a few years before) unfortunately we sowed meadow flowers rather than bog flowers there -oops!1
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Simon Pain on September 23, 2014, 12:22:37 PM
I was cut off by the cat who trod on the keyboard. The variety of the comments of what you should and should not see on a links course amuses me. We had a dreadful row a couple of years ago when to stop the rabbits burrowing we put the stone walls round the 8th and 11th (White) tees. "Links courses don't have stone walls" Well sorry but the only definition of a links course is that it is on links land and luckily they are all different. Where does natural links ruggedness end and manicured begin? Only in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for coming it was great to meet real golf enthusiasts, we are off to our home in Pinehurst tomorrow; I wonder what the new Dwarf Bermuda greens on #2 will be like and I hope to see Ran whilst in town. You can listen to the rubbish I talk on golf on Tee Time for the next 3 Mondays at 9.00 EDT on www.weeb990.com and it is usually podcasted as well. Is there some golf match this weekend?
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on September 23, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
Simon thanks for the reply and in particular for the reason for us seeing the sprinklers in action.

£100 FOR THE DAY(I stand corrected!) is great value compared to the other top 5 courses in Britain.

I have been dropping hints at home about a return to Cornwall, so I may get my wish to return before too long.

(PS can I still cast my vote against the wildflowers! ;))
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Mark Pearce on September 23, 2014, 12:54:04 PM
Thanks for chiming in, Simon, and thanks again for taking the time to catch up with us on both mornings.  For me St Enodoc was a revelation, easily becoming a contender for the top 10 courses I have played.  I probably have it a notch below Dornoch and Muirfield in the UK but think it compares well to anywhere else.  Thanks for explaining the fairway watering, though I didn't find them soft, just not quite as fast as some might have been. 

There was some debate about the new(ish) green on 13.  I thought the green itself was pretty good but wasn't a fan of the scalloped mounding on the left rear side, between the bunkers and the single mound behid the green.  I didn't mind the new green on 16, never having played the old one but it seemed a bit severe in the wind we played in.  Perhaps it makes more sense in a westerly wind.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Lynn_Shackelford on September 23, 2014, 03:07:25 PM
Simon

Glad you chimed in!  We haven't played it as much as you, so it is hard to say whether the old 16th was better, as good or worse than the current.  However in the "reverse wind" I found the last 3 holes discouraging and much more difficult than anything else out there with the exception of #2.  Bogey was a good score on those holes.
Furthermore I do not like the walk backward to 17th tee.  Guess you were landlocked on the 16th tee with the house and property just behind the tee.  You are now at 560 yards from the blues which isn't exactly easy for most players.  It interesting that members prefer the last holes to be so hard.
I wasn't a fan of the 13th green, but the 14th was world class.  If you haven't already departed for Pinehurst can you tell me has that little mound in front always been there?
15 isn't anything special, but a nice respite between 13, 14 and the finishing holes.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Garland Bayley on September 24, 2014, 02:05:10 PM
...  I wonder how Ben played the hole?  ...


Ben laid up with an iron after the drive, saying it was too dangerous to go for the green in our match.
That left us both about 150 out after two with me getting a stroke. He beat me handily from there in.
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Simon Pain on September 26, 2014, 09:35:17 AM
Thanks for your comments on my replies to your initial views and Tony & Mark accepting my remarks on the watering. Until such time as the insurers make their final decisions we can do no major repairs but they did tip up £10,000 to effect temporary repairs which was encouraging that we do have a valid claim and it was not an uncovered act of God! As for the flowers I know where you are coming from but all I would add is that over the last 5 years we have tried to eliminate some of the uglier patches of brambles etc round the course (in front of the 17th tee a good example) and generally tidy the place up; where that ends and making it look like someones prize garden is a mute point!
Lynn firstly I am in Pinehurst but the mound in front of the 14th green has always been there. With regard to lengthening the 16th I doubt if we would have done it by just pushing the tee back further as half the object was to make use of the magnificent dunes where the new green now is. There is no doubt that the closing 3 holes are tough into wind but I can think of Littlestone where the last 3 are really difficult into the prevailing wind and isn't it a feature of great courses to have a tough finish? I have to say that is one reason that I find the finish of Dornoch so disappointing with 3 really weak closing holes which detract from the wonderful front 9. In fact I think the 18th there is one of the poorest closing holes on any course I have played. Compare that to the 18th at Boat of Garten!
Title: Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 21, 2015, 07:40:27 AM
For those who like olde golf course photos if you have a look at the St Enodoc GC website you will find a whole bunch of terrific olde photos of the course going back to the early 1900's.


See St-Enodoc.co.uk. Then go to the The Club section, the Photos bit and they're under the heading "Pictures from the St Enodoc past"


Really terrific stuff.


Enjoy


Atb