Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ryan Hillenbrand on July 30, 2014, 03:57:14 PM
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Had a friend get back from his first visit to Pebble Beach and had the same experience I did -at Spyglass - the starter convinced him the course plays 400 yards longer than the yardage. And like me found this to be BS. He's a 2 and it played way too short for him.
Any validity to this, or this just a veiled attempt to Play It Forward?
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The quality of a golf experience is best measured by how quickly you got it over with.
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And like me found this to be BS. He's a 2 and it played way too short for him.
Any validity to this, or this just a veiled attempt to Play It Forward?
What did he shoot, 66 or 67?
Spyglass can be foggy, wet and windy at times. Its also very crowded and they want to keep the crowds moving.
For 98% of the play I suspect that playing it forward is the best option. Guys like your buddy have an ego and are grinding to shoot a score. If they just relaxed and enjoyed the scenery and ambiance they would be miles ahead. Besides, who is going to stop them from realizing this after a few holes and asking their playing partners if they can move back on certain tees.
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Had a friend get back from his first visit to Pebble Beach and had the same experience I did -at Spyglass - the starter convinced him the course plays 400 yards longer than the yardage. And like me found this to be BS. He's a 2 and it played way too short for him.
Any validity to this, or this just a veiled attempt to Play It Forward?
I'm not sure I understand.
The starter "convinced" him the course played 400 yards longer the yardage?
Did he play the back tees?
If so, what does that have to do with the starter?
and if he played a more forward set because the starter was so convincing, why didn't he just move back once he was "unconvinced"?
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Ryan, I can't provide objective evidence that Spyglass "plays longer than its yardage." However, I recall that that was exactly my experience. Probably a combination of cool air, sea level, short par 4's on paper that seem to play longer when played conservatively and one par 4 measuring 400 yards that played like 430.
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Had a friend get back from his first visit to Pebble Beach and had the same experience I did -at Spyglass - the starter convinced him the course plays 400 yards longer than the yardage. And like me found this to be BS. He's a 2 and it played way too short for him.
Any validity to this, or this just a veiled attempt to Play It Forward?
I'm not sure I understand.
The starter "convinced" him the course played 400 yards longer the yardage?
Did he play the back tees?
If so, what does that have to do with the starter?
and if he played a more forward set because the starter was so convincing, why didn't he just move back once he was "unconvinced"?
He played the golds based on the starters recommendation that at 6600 yards it'd play like it was 7000. As a mild mannered midwesterner in awe of his good fortune to play such a course he wasnt going to dispute it. After the round he, like I, found it played pretty much like the distance of every course in the midwest. Maybe due to the hills and humidity we're used it.
Maybe the correct question is "what is your handicap" and not assume everyone stepping to the tee is some hack there on a convention.
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My experience is that Spyglass plays significantly longer than its yardage. The pros play it from the back tees at 6900ish, and it is routinely the toughest course at the AT&T.
FWIW, I'm a competitive mid-am in the 0 to +2 range. I'm 46 and of modest length off the tee (260 - 270)
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As someone who caddied at Spy full-time, for almost 12 years, I can say that many of the holes that are uphill can play significantly longer, depending on the conditions.
First, I 'm curious, what did he shoot and did he putt everything out? The reason I ask is that is one tough track and many a 3 footer, or less, can be missed if you are in the wrong spot. Interesting to note that Mr. Woods failed to break par in any of the first 6 tournament rounds he played there. Several of those were even played under " lift, clean and cheat " conditions.
Spy plays much differently since they re-did the drainage in the late 90's. Built originally on a very modest budget, 600K or so in 1966 comes to mind, it was often VERY soft during the rainy season and played super long under that scenario. Today, the course drains quite well, the rough is shorter in general and the watering is better-managed than In the past. All of the factors, coupled with bomb and gouge technology, have led to a blunting of what formerly was one tough hombre of a golfing test.
The firmness the course now often presents has increased the run-out of drives, which when pounded by better players now leaves 8 irons in or less. NO WAY that was the case in the past. I mremember being in Norman's group when he was in his prime. Probably as go a driver of the ball in the game at the time...he got his ass kicked by Spy, shot like 76 and was stewing all the way around.
Spy's not what she was. Sadly, the Pebble Beach Company multilated her with some poorly executed changes in the 90's, but is still a super track and a stiff test when presented properly.
Hope this helps clarify what has transpired there.
Cheers,
Kris
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It just so happens theres a deep drop off in the ocean just off the shore near The Hill. This does create some spots where extra gravity is in play. :P
Throw in the wind, and one could probably get close to 400 yards in effective added length.
I've never met a 2 that would listen to a starter.
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It just so happens theres a deep drop off in the ocean just off the shore near The Hill. This does create some spots where extra gravity is in play. :P
Throw in the wind, and one could probably get close to 400 yards in effective added length.
I've never met a 2 that would listen to a starter.
Never met a 2 that played in Scotland? Do they not, for the most part, dictate from where you will play the course?
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Had a friend get back from his first visit to Pebble Beach and had the same experience I did -at Spyglass - the starter convinced him the course plays 400 yards longer than the yardage. And like me found this to be BS. He's a 2 and it played way too short for him.
Any validity to this, or this just a veiled attempt to Play It Forward?
I had no problem playing Spyglass from the back tees when I played there. The starter never said a word to me. I thought it played longer than the yardage. I had the arranged for the same caddie that I had at Pebble the day before. I'm standing on the back tee on #5 and a caddie walking in the other direction asks me where I stand for the day? I thought that was kind of strange. As we walk from the 5th green to the 6th tee my caddie Gene says "now the course gets hard." I'm thinking great... Anyways I hit my second shot in to the 18th green and he says "looks like I won that bet." He proceeds to tell me he has a bet with the starter on what I would shoot. Maybe that's why they didn't try to get me to play it up a set of tees.
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Rob...frankly, who cares how you played?
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Rob...frankly, who cares how you played?
When I said I had no problem playing from the back tees I was referring to the starter not giving me a problem. Not that my game didn't have a problem.
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Rob,
I appreciate your post. I had a very similar experience there the one time I played Spyglass. Caddie in my group won a bet based on my play. Apparently he got very good odds when I chose to play back.
I did find it played longer than the yardage, but not +400yds. That suggests more than 20 additional yards per hole, or roughly 2 clubs, all else equal. Having only played it once, I can't really judge, but that day it was no more than half a club for me.
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Had a friend get back from his first visit to Pebble Beach and had the same experience I did -at Spyglass - the starter convinced him the course plays 400 yards longer than the yardage. And like me found this to be BS. He's a 2 and it played way too short for him.
Any validity to this, or this just a veiled attempt to Play It Forward?
I played it recently with my son, a friend of his and his dad.
My friend's son's dad played forward tees, we played the tees next from the back.
No one attempted to instruct us where to play from.
But, it is a long hard golf course when it's damp.
And, that air is heavier.
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Too short compared to what? There are supposed to be a lot of short approaches at Spyglass – 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, and 18 are all intended to be medium or short approach shots. Length might've been a major factor at spyglass when it opened, but it's really not about that now. It's about demanding approach shots how difficult it is to save shots on and around the greens if you get yourself out of position.
In NCGA events, where most of the field is at 2 or better, the scoring average is around 78 to 79 depending on the conditions and setup.
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Too short compared to what? There are supposed to be a lot of short approaches at Spyglass – 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, and 18 are all intended to be medium or short approach shots.
Matt,
But, 5, 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 and 16 are long holes and depending upon the conditions of the day, the others may play alot longer as well.
SH is not a pitch and putt course.
Length might've been a major factor at spyglass when it opened, but it's really not about that now.
It's about demanding approach shots how difficult it is to save shots on and around the greens if you get yourself out of position.
Isn't that a factor of length off the tee ?
In NCGA events, where most of the field is at 2 or better, the scoring average is around 78 to 79 depending on the conditions and setup.
The average golfer who plays SH isn't a 2 or better, that's one of the reasons rounds are played in excess of 4:30.
You have to consider the abilities of those who play the course, day in and day out.
For them, it's a long golf coures.
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I found it played longer than the yardage, but certainly not +400 yards. I played the 6600 tees, because I was there to enjoy the day and not beat myself up on a track that I'm sure can be plenty tough.
I found many of my approaches early on in the round coming up maybe a half a club or a full club short. Watching my playing companions, I quickly realize this was actually ideal, because my god if that isn't a course where you never want to be above the hole. But being below it, if you're having a decent day chipping, was not so bad at all.
Also, I fully expected all the courses in Monterey to play longer for me, since I was coming from Phoenix, where the air is dry and hot and we're at some (minor) elevation.
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Ryan, do you and your friend hit the ball real far?
Does time of year affect how long Spyglass plays?
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The simple answer is that the starter was doing his job by trying to influence pace of play with the ploy of claiming the extra 400 yards. Probably half of people on the back tees of resort courses like Spy belong on the middle tees.
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It's about demanding approach shots how difficult it is to save shots on and around the greens if you get yourself out of position.
Isn't that a factor of length off the tee ?
At the risk of getting into minutiae, I don't think so. Most of the short approach shots I mentioned come after layups. For close-to-scratch players, there are only four holes (discounting the par-5's) where driving distance would make a difference between having a long approach shot and a not-so-long one: 6, 9, 13, and 16. The shots on 10 and 18 are affected by driving distance, but aren't that long anyway. The rest are layups except for 8, which is a driver for short hitters and a layup for long hitters. Even if you include those par-5's, you're talking about maybe 6 holes where driving distance really changes things, and I think that's a pretty small number compared to most courses.
I'm not saying it doesn't help! But I'd much rather play a long hitter at Spyglass than at most other courses.
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Ryan, do you and your friend hit the ball real far?
Does time of year affect how long Spyglass plays?
The only time I ever played Spyglass - wasn't keen to return - it was pretty typical April weather. Tee shots rolled maybe five yards if at all. It was the longest 6600 yards I've ever played. After 5 I really got worn out! Loved those first five though.
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Ryan, do you and your friend hit the ball real far?
Does time of year affect how long Spyglass plays?
He hits it about 280-290, which is long in my book. He said he hit nothing but short irons into every par 4.. He shot 79, which obviously isn't super low and still provided a challenge. But I don' think there is anything wrong with wanting to play every club in your bag, especially if its the first time getting to play a course on the peninsula.
I on the other hand am just of average length and the Gold tees were plenty for me. But I found the 400 yard thing was a stretch. So it gets to Terry's point - which was the reason for my question.
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Ryan,
I think a systemic problem, at Spyglass and elsewhere, is the pattern where inferior golfers want to play from tees intended for superior golfers.
I understand the desire.
The problem is that when golfers get in over their heads, they take extra time.
Ergo, 6 hour rounds by mid to late day aren't unusual.
We tend to tee off early and play at a very fast pace.
I no longer have any interest in playing U.S. Open or PGA Tour back tees.
The tees have gotten longer as I've gotten older and that's not a favorable trend.
Depending upon par and conditions, 6,400 to 7,000 is plenty for me.
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I had a similar experience last December. My group and I were waiting to tee off and I asked the Starter for some last-minute advice. He said to play the whites because the golds play more like 7,000 yards.
Like any reasonable group of golfers we ignored him and played from the golds.
As has been said, I thought the course played a bit longer than the card, but not nearly as long as the Starter's estimate.
Beautiful spot though. Can't wait to get back.
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I played at Chambers Bay a few weeks ago. When deciding tees, the starter said that the Sand tees were set up 400 yards longer than the scorecard. I asked him if it played 400 yards longer, or that the actual tees were farther back. He said, the actual tees were set up 400 yards longer.
On every single one of the 18 holes, the tees were set up at the scorecard length or shorter. Every single one. I estimate that it was set up 150 yards shorter than the scorecard.
I don't mind a bit of fibbing for the sake of faster play but this was a flat out lie and that is bullshit.
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For that kind of coin, they should at least ask your handicap before lying to you
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For that kind of coin, they should at least ask your handicap before lying to you
Ryan,
I think your looking at this from a limited perspective.
Let's back up a second.
Is there a great demand to play the course by a broad spectrum of golfers ?
Are many of those golfers:
1. Beginners
2. Hackers
3. Tourists
Does the club have an obligation to provide you with an enjoyable experience ?
1. Yes
2. No
Is a six (6) hour round an enjoyable experience ?
Is teeing off in the afternoon and not finishing your round an enjoyable experience ?
Do too many golfers think that they are better than they really are ?
Does the course play longer than the yardage ?
Put all of those factors into play and it would be irresponsible for management not to try to get golfers to play forward tees.
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