Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: AKikuchi on July 30, 2014, 01:37:14 PM
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I recently finished the Evangelist of Golf, and wanted to add to the many praises it has received on this site. I particularly enjoyed reading the individual course sections in conjunction with the current aerial perspective of google maps, as well as Ran’s course profiles (where available). These are a powerful combination of tools for someone who is interested in advancing their understanding of golf course architecture. I regret never having had the pleasure of meeting George Bahto, but I’m proud to add my name to the list of those whose appreciation for gca he has influenced greatly.
I came away with a number of questions which I may post here over time. Thanks in advance for humoring me if any of the points have been covered in some way before.
I was struck by a particular feature in the aerial photo of the Gibson Island Club. The majority (12-14, it's hard to say for sure) of the greens are guarded by horseshoe-shaped bunkering surrounding the back and sides of the green, with the approach from the front seemingly open to the fairway. Google maps shows that this remains true on 6 of the 9 still-existing holes. Although I’m far less well-versed than most of you, I’m not familiar with any course with such extensive, consistent use of this feature. Does anyone have any insight into how this came to be? Was it due to some particular constraints on the site?
Current aerial view:
(http://i.imgur.com/tUh2iA3.jpg)
The closest comparison I could find was Shoreacres, which seems to use this three-sided bunkering on a good number of holes despite having more general variety in the bunkering. I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts, or examples of other courses with similar features.
-Alan
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Alan,
The bunkers you see in the aerial are not exactly what was depicted in the original plan.
They have been modified since the course was shortened to 9 holes.
The par 3 third, the tee on 4 and the 7th hole have been altered to accept the new routing.
The original old photos show a little more movement then your photo color aerial shows.
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I enjoy a round on this little track every so often, and I think it has (or, perhaps sadly had) off the charts potential given its location. But is is a blast to play, and the two/four sets of tees provide a very reasonable approximation of an 18 hole round.
I believe that the bunkering is intended, at least in part, to provide retention. The course is rather severe in spots, and it's tight. The backs of the greens are often pretty close to the property line and often have huge drops or run offs that would carry a long shot to its doom, especially if the course is playing firm. The bunkers keep that from happening.
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Alan,
The bunkers you see in the aerial are not exactly what was depicted in the original plan.
They have been modified since the course was shortened to 9 holes.
The par 3 third, the tee on 4 and the 7th hole have been altered to accept the new routing.
The original old photos show a little more movement then your photo color aerial shows.
I'm not entirely sure on this. While the bunkers may have been modified a little, what I've seen of the original course would confirm the large number of horseshoe bunkers currently protecting the back of the greens .
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5594/14602524757_4b44b3e390_o.jpg)
You can see horseshoe bunkers on the original 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th, and 17th greens. As well as the 3 sided bunkering on the 3rd.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3836/14789045215_672c029481_o.jpg)
While this routing is not original, it does match the aerial photograph and Daniel Wexler's drawing from "Missing Links".
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wow, it's a shame this course had to lose the other 9 holes. 6 through 12 look like they could have been pretty cool. It doesn't appear any housing or anything substantial was put in place of the holes. Any reasoning behind losing half the course?
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Gibson Island was originally intended to be an Olmsted designed master community with 2 Macdonald / Raynor courses. The depression put an end to much of the original plan, but I believe the original course was reduced to 9 prior to the depression. Apparently they had an issue with the wind blowing around sand on the exposed peninsula holes.
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Ben,
Thanks for those additions. While Jim seems correct about the routing changes, the former 3rd hole was actually another example of the 3-sided bunkering. In the drawing you posted (which seems to match the aerial in Evangelist, as well as the aerial you posted), 14 greens have continuous or nearly-continuous 3-sided bunkering. I find that interesting, and would love to hear more thoughts on why that should or shouldn’t be surprising.
Jon’s comment about the bunkers providing important retention fits with my first thought (having not seen the course in person), as the routing seems pretty tightly packed into the space. This is especially true for the NLE half of the course on that very cool-looking peninsula. The dark outlines between the bunkers and the greens seem to suggest significant drops around elevated greens as well.
It does seem like many of the horseshoes are set at an angle to favor a certain line of approach, but I still wonder whether the feature would have been noticeably repetitive on a full 14 out of 18 holes. I also wonder how the bunkering would have played into the thought process in laying out the course, and whether the extensive use of the 3-sided bunkering would have been at all a concern to the architect.
-Alan
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If anyone has any local contacts on Gibson Island, please send me an IM. I am interested to rent a house there next late June for a week. Thanks
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Wow! The old photo's almost look Fisher's Island'ish!
Mark
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Mark:
I don't know if you've ever seen Gibson Island in person, but your comment is entirely accurate. The place had unliminted potential, and must have been just incredible around the time it opened.
Jon
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Is the current 6th hole using the original 15th green, or did they create an entirely new par 3?
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The preliminary plan I've seen from 1921 would place the original 15th green a little farther south of the current 6th and would have been a par 4 approached from the West.
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Jon, I have not been, but now I definitely need to get down there and see the 9 holes that are left, regarless.
The course must have been one of the best in the country when it opened. It looks phenomenal!!
Are there any other old aerials or pictures in existence??
Mark
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Mark:
I don't know if you've ever seen Gibson Island in person, but your comment is entirely accurate. The place had unliminted potential, and must have been just incredible around the time it opened.
Jon
Jon,
My brother lives within sight of Gibson Island and I have seen it from both land and the water.
Quite the lost treasure. Has to rank among the greatest losses.
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Looking at Bing maps, you can still see the structures put up to hold the 8th green and 9 tee from falling into the water.
Mark
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I visited Gibson Island last fall and it was a treat. There is still enough undeveloped land on the island to build the entire 36 holes, however, most of the land associated with the lost 9 has homes on it. One can stand on the original Redan tee (a reverse over a small bay) which is on a member's side yard and imagine the shot required. Other greens such as ten sit on a member's front yard by the water and is still visible.
The current 6th green was the previous 15th green and used to be approached from 3 o'clock as you approach the green today. It is all wooded in that area.
Bunkering was redone/restored a few years back I believe by Silva (Jim U also visited, correct Jim?), and it certainly has that CBM SR CB look and feel.
Given the members inclination towards sailing and other non-golf pursuits, it is highly unlikely the golf will ever go back beyond nine holes. The club has a well laid out and comprehensive museum which catalogues the history of the island, not only geologically, but historically. It contains numerous photos, plans and articles about the golf course, including a photo of the Redan taken from the tee. The island is gated and private, but well worth a long drive and whatever else is needed to play there. Don't miss the opportunity to visit the museum! I have photos inside and of the golf course if anyone is interested.
Regards,
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" I have photos inside and of the golf course if anyone is interested."
Yes, I am interested.
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Agreed, would love to see the pictures!
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Please share the pictures
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Bump
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1921 Olmsted Brothers proposed map, including the 36 hole routing
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3925/14858264231_a44d09bfea_o.jpg)
Satellite overlay
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3908/14838349776_cdc61a7b5b_o.jpg)
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As a follow up to the request for original hole names at the Greenbrier Old White, does anyone know if there were any original hole names for the 18 hole course?
Interesting that the original layout was par-69 with just one par-five. Same as the original draft of Yale before 16 was lengthened from a 4 to a 5 during construction.
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Colin:
Here's a May 11, 1924 Baltimore Sun article on the course that includes yardages.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Gibson_Island_-_Baltimore_Sun_May_11_1924.jpeg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/3322b8b9-1715-4005-a0a7-4228c06f73c3)
Adding in a couple very cool early Olmsted maps of the course.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Gibson_Island_Olmsted_Plan_-_June_15_1921.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/31b27598-65bf-4193-8901-d069b08f73b2)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Gibson_Island_As_Built_Olmsted_Plan_-_April_12_1924.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/24cbda47-fad2-4e51-816b-46fba1c63586)
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Brett,
Thank you for that. I appreciate it.
It's interesting the writer describes that third hole, the par-3, which really does look like a reverse Redan. (The other three one-shotters are the remaining usual templates.) But he describes it like a one-shot Cape Hole like 14 at National. Perhaps because of the tidal water coming near the hole. Any reason to believe it actually is was a "Cape" hole?
I do agree with the black and white aerial I have that the repeated use of the single, wrap-around back bunkers, albeit with some variation, does appear to have been overused.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP-pDy8zi5I_CqG4mNAWSMJ5Kw0-_C3RN8bdugZlG6A8eY1mF5UVcJn-5Y9zL60OQ/photo/AF1QipP2TM501fWf6r2nEpwQ5lB7GTX_uGadvYgkf6dq?key=WVhlaXhLdnlKRlNCTjNPQl9lbENBNzlEY04tZ3FR
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Here's a better copy of the article above. You might be able to decipher what a few of the holes were supposed to be from the descriptions and yardages given.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc435/snilsen7/Gibson_Island_(Text_Only)_-_Baltimore_Sun_May_11_1924.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/snilsen7/a/acf16c8f-790e-4e37-bce1-74b1fd7e6a8b/p/7b7200e0-da9f-473c-be61-cb09afe1865a)
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Brett,
Thank you for that. I appreciate it.
It's interesting the writer describes that third hole, the par-3, which really does look like a reverse Redan. (The other three one-shotters are the remaining usual templates.) But he describes it like a one-shot Cape Hole like 14 at National. Perhaps because of the tidal water coming near the hole. Any reason to believe it actually is was a "Cape" hole?
I do agree with the black and white aerial I have that the repeated use of the single, wrap-around back bunkers, albeit with some variation, does appear to have been overused.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP-pDy8zi5I_CqG4mNAWSMJ5Kw0-_C3RN8bdugZlG6A8eY1mF5UVcJn-5Y9zL60OQ/photo/AF1QipP2TM501fWf6r2nEpwQ5lB7GTX_uGadvYgkf6dq?key=WVhlaXhLdnlKRlNCTjNPQl9lbENBNzlEY04tZ3FR (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP-pDy8zi5I_CqG4mNAWSMJ5Kw0-_C3RN8bdugZlG6A8eY1mF5UVcJn-5Y9zL60OQ/photo/AF1QipP2TM501fWf6r2nEpwQ5lB7GTX_uGadvYgkf6dq?key=WVhlaXhLdnlKRlNCTjNPQl9lbENBNzlEY04tZ3FR)
Colin,
I have a feeling the author of this article got his signals crossed. Maybe because most of the greens look like Cape style greens? The third hole was definitely a reverse Redan. Hole 8 appears to be the Short, 10 was the Biarritz and 12 appears to be the Eden. The Cape hole would have likely been the 9th hole. The green that stands out to me the most in that aerial is the 13th hole (top of the aerial). This 13th hole looks like a double Punchbowl or Lions Mouth to me. This Lions Mouth would have predated the 16th at CC of Charleston.
Bret
Here is a cool oblique aerial showing a sliver of the 7th, all of the 8th, 9th and 10th holes. You can also see the old 3rd green across the water. It looks like it’s hanging off the edge.. Ben posted this aerial earlier in this thread.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/IMG_1985.PNG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/765d6cc9-4a95-40cb-8489-4b00029d66ae)
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George and I always felt the original Gibson Island was on the short list of notable lost architectural treasures in American golf - and one nobody ever seemed to mention. I've not been out there in years - never played it, just took notes and pictures for the book - but a fair comparison (although only 9 holes by design) would be the lost Ocean Links in Newport that had quite a similar feel.
My recollection is the condition of Gibson Island was cavalier indifference - as if just another activity. Shabby without the chic if that makes sense.
Jim, do they have an consulting architect - or anybody with some historical perspective, knowledge and taste? A series of horseshoe bunkers looks more like amateurish tinkering than authentic respect for the original beauty.
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Lester George redid one hole at Gibson. I believe they are in the process of OKing redoing the remaining 8 holes.
I've played Gibson a number of times and wrote two pieces (2009 and 2019) on the place (thanks John Mayhugh for helping with the links). I've walked the lost nine. There are still remains of two greensites - one in the woods and one next to a guy's yard right on the water.
I tried in 2009 to get them to hire Doak to redo the place but for whatever reason that didn't pan out. Tom's "0" for Gibson in CG may suggest how that negotiation went :-)
Much of what is said about the Gibson course is true. It's bucolic, understated and much about what once was or could be. The residents and members love the Gatsby-like island environment (with good reason). But to many of them the golf course is just a rather minor component.
Thinking I was far more connected than I was, Uncle George would call me up and rail that I needed to corral the DC deep pockets and resurrect Gibson (and Annapolis too for that matter). "Yes George, right away George, do you want the full 36 or just 18....?" :-)
George was sure right about one thing, Gibson is a pretty cool and unique place.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6c3v12ha0nzk99o/Gibson%20Island%20scan%202019.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6c3v12ha0nzk99o/Gibson%20Island%20scan%202019.pdf?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wmnh2n9x795xui0/Gibson%20Island_Page1-merged.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wmnh2n9x795xui0/Gibson%20Island_Page1-merged.pdf?dl=0)