Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on July 20, 2014, 07:16:07 PM
-
...and Westward Ho! can't be one of them (the Humpty Rule)....Mark, just giving you shit in preparation for the five year barrage we can expect concerning Royal North Devon :D
I think many should be able to guess most of mine. Well folks, you were unimpressed with George so don't let that cretin (said lovingly and with respect for all you George fans out there in Peperland) have the last word.
Ciao
-
1. Royal Dornoch
2. Kingsbarns
3. Castle Stuart
4. Brora
5. Formby (if it counts)
6. Nairn
7. Saunton East
8. Enniscrone
9. Castle Course (if it counts)
10. Royal Birkdale
11. Royal St Georges (replacing 4 if applicable).
12. St Enodoc (Replacing 9 if applicable).
-
1. Saint_A
2. Sand_H
3. Red_D
3. White_D
5. Pacific_D
6. Bandon_T
7. Bandon_D
8. Royal_M
9. New_SW
10. Ballyneal.
-
Out of curiosity, what does the stuff below mean?
(replacing 4 if applicable).
(Replacing 9 if applicable).
Ciao
-
St Andrews
Portrush Dunluce
Ballybunion Old
Cruden Bay
Royal County Down
Portrush Valley
Lahinch
Dooks
Carne
Waterville
(No order to the list)
-
Out of curiosity, what does the stuff below mean?
(replacing 4 if applicable).
(Replacing 9 if applicable).
Ciao
Do Formby and Castle Course count as Links? If not, those two are the replacements.
-
In no particular order....
Royal Dornoch
St Andrews Old
Royal Porthcawl
North Berwick West Links
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal St George's
Pennard
Rye
Littlestone
Royal Liverpool
(I've walked but not played Royal County Down, it would certainly be near the top. Happy to see it during the Walker Cup)
In North America? Only Pacific Dunes and Cabot Links :) and not sure all of PD is links land.
-
Well, I have only played the following 20, so it seems like picking 10 is a bit silly....
Links
1. Brora
2. Cruden Bay
3. Cullen
4. Dunbar
5. Elie
6. Fraserburgh
7. Golspie
8. Gullane #2
9. Kilspindie
10. Lundin
11. Nairn
12. Nairn Dunbar
13. North Berwick
14. Royal Dornoch Championship
15. Royal Dornoch Struie
16. SA Eden
17. SA Jubilee
18. SA New
19. SA Old
20. Tain
Other non-links in the area
1. Boat of Garten
2. Duddingston
3. Scotscraig
4. Bonar Bridge
Nevertheless, I rate these as my favorites:
Elie
Brora
Dunbar
And probably:
SA Old
North Berwick
Courses I hope to never see again:
SA Jubilee
You may have noticed a trend here. My top three are probably considered "easy" by a lot of folks. Guilty as charged.
I just today listened to the 'State of the Game" podcast from the week before the US Open, which included a session with Chris Buie author of "The Early Days of Pinehurst." They brought up an old word to describe golf courses.... Sporty.
Well, I have long thought hard is overrated in golf courses, and interesting is underrated. Maybe sporty is what I really want.
Elie, Brora and Dunbar are all sporty. And they all have delicious locations to my taste.
-
St. Andrews Old
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
The European Club
Ballybunion Old
St. Enodoc
Royal North Devon (Sorry Sean, but I didn't say Westward Ho!)
Royal Birkdale
Royal Portrush
Pennard
-
I've played fewer than 20, so I'll limit myself to a Top 5. I would have included Kingsbarns, but it's not a true links - as I understand the term - regardless of what Sgt. Peper says!
1. Royal Dornoch
2. Lahinch
3. St. Andrews (Old)
4. North Berwick
5. Old MacDonald
Carnoustie (Championship) and Crail (Balcomie) get honorable mention.
-
Favorite 10 Links courses -
1. Royal County Down
2. St. Andrew's Old
3. Muirfield
4. Ballybunion
5. Pacific Dunes
6. Lahinch
7. Royal Portrush
8. Royal Dornoch
9. North Berwick West
10. Cruden Bay
Just left out
Turnberry, Cabot Links, Prestwick, Waterville, Bandon Dunes, Carnoustie, Tralee
-
My 13 as that is my lucky number...
Cypress Point
Deal
Lahinch
Pacific Dunes
Royal County Down
St. Enodoc
Bandon Trails
Royal St. George's
Ballybunion Old
Kennemer
Rye
Bandon Dunes
Pennard (only got to play the back 9 but walked the front)
I'll prepare to be debated on CPC and BT being eligible!
-
Random order:
Royal Dornoch
Royal Cinque Ports
St Enodoc
Silloth On Solway
North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Cabot Links
Dooks
Royal St George's
Barnbougle Dunes
Honorable mention:
Pennard
Machrihanish
-
...and Westward Ho! can't be one of them (the Humpty Rule)....Mark, just giving you shit in preparation for the five year barrage we can expect concerning Royal North Devon :D
I'll respond when I stop laughing. Could be a while. ;D But when I do, I will endeavor to live up to Peper's ultimate criterion: 'If I could schedule a tee time for tomorrow morning, where would I want it to be.'
-
In no exact order but close:
Carne
Cruden Bay
Dornoch
Portrush
TOC
RCD
Enniscrone
The Machrie
-
In no particular order, except the first, my favourite course:
Machrihanish
St Andrews (Old)
St Enodoc
Barnbougle Dunes
Cruden Bay
Askernish
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal St George's
Enniscrone
Royal Hague
Ps. Shouldn't it be 'fuggeddabout'? :)
-
1. St Andrews Old
2. Barnbougle Lost Farm
3. Barnbougle Dunes
4. Lahinch
5. County Louth
6. Brora
7. Port Fairy
8. The Eden
9. Royal Portrush
10. North Berwick
-
My 13 as that is my lucky number...
Cypress Point
Deal
Lahinch
Pacific Dunes
Royal County Down
St. Enodoc
Bandon Trails
Royal St. George's
Ballybunion Old
Kennemer
Rye
Bandon Dunes
Pennard (only got to play the back 9 but walked the front)
I'll prepare to be debated on CPC and BT being eligible!
I'll play the role of Patrick Mucci:
Which holes at either Cypress Point or Bandon Trails are on links land? Bandon Trails has even more holes in the forest than CPC.
-
Adam - Ps. Shouldn't it be 'fuggeddabout'? When in England....think of Hugh Grant :P
I need someone took hook me up with Royal Hague (and de Pan), both sound charming.
As I suspected, it didn't take long before seven of my favourites were mentioned.
Enniscrone
Portrush Valley
Lahinch
Cruden Bay
North Berwick West Links
Pennard
St Enodoc
Ciao
-
Good topic Sean
George's list is very bizzare, but it is his, and it made me think about top 10 links I would most prefer to play again, rather than my insignificant view as to which were the "best" 10 links GCA-wise or otherwise. So, alphabetically....
Ballyliffin Old--not as good as when it was Ballyliffin Only, but what remains is still Eddie Hackett's masterpiece
Deal--the Elie of England
Dornoch--my "home" course since I first played it in 1978
Eden (St. Andrews)--most enjoyable course in St. Andrews, even with the Links Trust/Donald Steel butchery of what Colt built
Elie--in many ways the perfect links, and whilst posh, still very accessible
Kilspindie--the least "affected" of all the significant East Lothian clubs and courses and the greatest fun
Muirfield--so posh that it is the second least affected of the significant East Lothian links (and yes, it IS a links)
Mulranney--spent an hour walking it in 2008, still remains above Pine Valley on my "bucket list" of courses to play
Silloth--more remote than Dornoch but almost as enjoyable
Western Gailes--a nearly perfect blend of quality, simplicity and comfort
Rich
-
I'll play the role of Patrick Mucci:
Which holes at either Cypress Point or Bandon Trails are on links land? Bandon Trails has even more holes in the forest than CPC.
None, Uncle Bill.
-
Adam - Ps. Shouldn't it be 'fuggeddabout'? When in England....think of Hugh Grant :P
I need someone took hook me up with Royal Hague (and de Pan), both sound charming.
As I suspected, it didn't take long before seven of my favourites were mentioned.
Enniscrone
Portrush Valley
Lahinch
Cruden Bay
North Berwick West Links
Pennard
St Enodoc
Ciao
And not at all surprising to me that none of my top 10 are in your top seven. Confirmation of the Tom Paul Big World Theory.
-
Adam - Ps. Shouldn't it be 'fuggeddabout'? When in England....think of Hugh Grant :P
I need someone took hook me up with Royal Hague (and de Pan), both sound charming.
Frank P is your man.
-
Rihc
I get the impresson your favourites have changed a bit over the years. Not surprising I spose, but what are some courses you used to like more than now?
Ciao
-
1. Saint_A
2. Sand_H
3. Red_D
3. White_D
5. Pacific_D
6. Bandon_T
7. Bandon_D
8. Royal_M
9. New_SW
10. Ballyneal.
Interesting interpretation as to what's a links. I've played 6 of these courses and would have thought at least 7 aren't in fact a links.
-
Nice to see Ballyliffin Old with an admirer. Nearly made my list.
Memory is fading but has the best rumpled fairways of any course I've played (like the 4th at Louth only more so). 14 (I think) also has a bit of Dornoch's 15th about it at the green.
-
St Andrews
Paraparaumu Beach
Ballybunion
Lahinch
North Berwick
Askernish
Machrie
Deal
Probably 8 of my top 10 golf experiences have been at the above. Many of them playing late in the evening solo or with one other.
There are a handful of courses that I really enjoyed but having played them only once they aren't yet stuck in my subconscious (yet).
-
Love my links golf and fortunate to have travelled to play a number.
1. Royal County Down
2. St Andrews Old
3. Lahinch
4. Royal Portrush
5. Barnbougle Dunes
6. Ballybunion
7. Royal Liverpool
8. Royal Troon
9. Paraparaumu Beach
10.Royal Cinque Ports
Some pretty good honourable mentions
Carnoustie
Royal Birkdale
Royal St Georges
Oreti Sands
-
I'll drop the mic so that Jeff warne can pick it up. Haven't played enough to make a top ten, let alone a discrete one.
-
Rihc
I get the impresson your favourites have changed a bit over the years. Not surprising I spose, but what are some courses you used to like more than now?
Ciao
Coia
This exercise was the first time I ever thought of ranking courses as personal favo(u)rites, rather than by architectural quality. Only two of my list above make that second list.
Hrci
-
Haven't played nearly enough but here goes:
1. TOC
2. Prestwick
3. Old Mac
4. Lahinch
5. Pac Dunes
6. Ballybunion Old
7. Portmarnock
8. Baltray
9. Carnoustie
10. The Island
-
Royal County Down
The Old Course
Old MacDonald
NGLA
Muirfield
North Berwick
Renaissance
Crail Balcomie
Pacific Dunes
Askernish
If these are links, then they are in the mix:
Dismal Doak,
Sand Hills,
Dismal Nicklaus,
Shinnecock
-
I think I wrote an article on this once, for LINKS Magazine, so don't sue me if my list has changed a bit from that. I'm not trying to rate them in order, I'm thinking by geography, but here are my ten:
St. Andrews
North Berwick
Askernish
St. Enodoc
Rye
Pennard
Ballybunion
Royal County Down
Barnbougle Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Hard to reconcile how I could leave two of my 10's out of my ten, but these are the ones that first came to my heart.
EDIT: Damn! I forgot Brancaster! I hate being confined to lists of ten.
-
Adopting the Goodall method, most favourite first and then in no particular order;
Silloth-on-Solway
Gullane 3
Carnoustie
Moray Old
Gullane 2
Prestwick St Nich's
North Berwick
Nairn
Glasgow Gailes
County Sligo (Rosses Point)
Of course I reserve the right to change my mind but the above courses are the ones that have endeared themselves to me the most.
Niall
-
As I suspected, it didn't take long before
seven eight of my favourites were mentioned - add Prestwick.
Enniscrone
Portrush Valley
Lahinch
Cruden Bay
North Berwick West Links
Pennard
St Enodoc
Prestwick
Guess I shall have to find a way to get to Askernish. I tried to organize a trip for next year, but was shot down - heavy sigh.
Ciao
-
Royal County Down
St Andrews
Royal Dornoch
North Berwick
Muirfield
Lahinch
Pac Dunes
Western Gailes
Cruden Bay
Portrush
-
Sean,
Make that trip to Askernish! I'd offer to accompany you, but I get the impression that if I make a trip to the Western Isles without Carole, I wont be very popular at home... 8)
Here's mine for today:
Royal Dornoch
Brora
Askernish
Burnham & Berrow
Deal
Brancaster
Silloth
North Berwick
Pennard
Royal County Down
And as no one else seems to be able to count, a couple of modern courses:
Renaissance Club
Castle Stuart
Still some significant gaps in my links playing CV I must admit, but I suspect its more likely to be some of the wee Scottish nine hole courses or some of those delightful looking western Ireland courses you have posted recently that will be the ones to find their way onto a favorites list.
Cheers,
James
-
Hi Guys, I'm back in the game. Just couldn't do withoiut GCA!
Prestwick
Barnbougle
RCD
Royal Dornoch
Old Course
St. Enodoc
North Berwick
Cruden Baxy
Carne
Enniscrone
Saunton E
I miss those places. I'll be heading up to Brora, Wick, Reay and Durness late this summer. I hardly expect them to enter this list in terms of quality but I'm so looking forward to playing links again that I can't think of anything else.. :)
-
1. Royal Portrush Dunluce
2. Royal County Down
3. Prairie Club Dunes
4. Sand Hills
5. TOC
6. Ballyneal
7. Portstewart Strand
-
In no particular order
Porthcawl
Pennard
Portrush
Dornoch
North Berwick
Deal
Silloth
St Andrews
Cruden Bay
Enniscrone
Hard to leave off Saunton E, Carne, Brora and Golspie
-
Current thinking - 9 will do - and in no particular order
St Olaf, the 9-holer at Cruden Bay
The Channel, the 9-holer at Burnham and Berrow
The Bann, the 9-holer at Castlerock
Golspie - three courses in one, but links to me
Dunfanaghy - mellow and gentle and such a nice place to play
Muirfield - the best Open venue I've played or visited
Carnoustie - the toughest
Royal Aberdeen - a personal favourite that more folk need to play
Carne - a magical place
Atb
-
On reviewing my list I am disappointed by how predictable it seems to be
Lahinch
Portrush Dunluce
Dornoch
St Andrews Old
North Berwick
Brancaster
RSG
Deal
Pennard
I find the more I play great courses the more I like them. There’s a few where another visit or two might open my eyes further, as a recent second visit to Porthcawl did.
So in the above there’s 9 and to complete I’m certain that one, or more, of the following are bound to make the list once I’ve played them more than once.
Ballybunion/Prestwick/Ellie
There are a few I’ve yet to play that I have high hopes for e.g.
Carne/Enniscrone/Machrihanish/St Enedoc.
However to see more courses often means forgoing another round at an old favourite. I would be more than content if all my play was restricted to the courses above.
So all in all, I agree with the poster above who described it as today’s list.
-
[EDIT] I've decided that Ganton is "in" and counts as a links. My list, my critiera.
Favorite Links Course:
Royal St. George's
Remainder of Top Ten (alphabetical order):
Brora
Formby
Ganton
Littlestone
Princes
Royal Birkdale
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Dornoch
Seaton Carew
...with apologies to Golspie for being "odd course out" as the only (mostly) links course I've played that couldn't fit on a list of ten.
-
in no particular order....
Royal Dornoch
Brora
Royal st George's
Pennard
Westward ho!
North Berwick
Muirfield
St Enodoc
Waterville
Many notable omissions but "favourites" is a good word and allows happy memories to be a key feature rather than more austere criteria!
Philip
-
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay
Anthony Gray
-
John K,
You do know what a links is?
-
I know the purpose of this thread isn't to discuss what is and isn't a links course but I figured if posting a list I should provide the definition of "links course" used to create my list. Basically I went and grabbed my copy of True Links by Peper and Campbell and used their criteria (which they say is the definition used by The British Golf Museum in St Andrews):
"a stretch of land near the coast,...characterized by undulating terrain, often associated with dunes, infertile sandy soil and indigenous grasses as marram, sea lyme, and the fescues and bents which, when properly managed, produce the fine textured tight turf for which links are famed."
Royal Dornoch (my favorite course)
Bandon Dunes (I realized my preference is directly related to the number of times I played each course at the resort)
Old Macdonald (just a fun course)
Royal Hague (I was honestly surprised this course qualified as a links being nearly 2 miles from the coast)
Borth (this course and club is exactly what I want a links club to be)
Pennard (the first course I played in the UK and what a great intro it was)
Irvine Bogside (I found out James Braid is my type of architect as I really enjoyed all his courses)
North Berwick (a fun place)
St. Andrews Eden (If I lived in town this would by my evening round)
Fraserburgh (just a really good walk)
All that being said it's tough to find a links course that isn't tons of fun.
-
Westward ho!
Uh oh Philip beware Sheriff Arble come to pillage your list of favorites.
Also, Ganton is a links. As has been noted elsewhere, it is simply a matter of choosing the appropriate Period, Eon or Era, as you prefer.
EDIT:
I am a man of few favorites so there will be no Top 10. Here we go, in no particular order and Sean's rule withstanding:
TOC
Elie
N Berwick
Girvan (play 1-8 2x for innovative 16-hole round)
Rye
Ganton
Barny
-
I'll play the role of Patrick Mucci:
Which holes at either Cypress Point or Bandon Trails are on links land? Bandon Trails has even more holes in the forest than CPC.
None, Uncle Bill.
Bing! Bing! We have a winner!
The 13th at Cypress Point looks linksy but maybe it's all the bloody sand. I love the tee shot over the sandy berm and I love the dastardly spine in the green.
-
I think I wrote an article on this once, for LINKS Magazine, so don't sue me if my list has changed a bit from that. I'm not trying to rate them in order, I'm thinking by geography, but here are my ten:
St. Andrews
North Berwick
Askernish
St. Enodoc
Rye
Pennard
Ballybunion
Royal County Down
Barnbougle Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Hard to reconcile how I could leave two of my 10's out of my ten, but these are the ones that first came to my heart.
Which 10's did not make it?
-
Top 10 links played...
1a St. Andrews Old
1b Royal County Down
3 Pac Dunes
4a Carnoustie
4b Lahinch
6 Royal Portrush Dunluce
7 Old Mac
8 Royal Portrush Valley
9 Royal Dublin
10 Arcadia Bluffs (I'm kidding!!)
-
HCEG
Dornoch
Machrihanish
North Berwick
Elie
Askernish
Brora
Formby
TOC
Cruden Bay
-
The Old Course St. Andrews
Cruden Bay
Portmarnock
Pacific Dunes
Lahinch
Old MacDonald
Bandon Dunes
Royal Aberdeen
and a couple of links courses no where near an ocean
Sand Hills
Ballyneal
-
There are a few oddballs trying to redefine what a links is, but I would expect nothing less from this crew :D But if I have to pick one screwball from the crowd it must be Sheehy because he should know better ;)
I am very surprised nobody mentioned Highland Links (though I am very suspect of this as a True Links) or Cabot Links.
It is clear I need to make it up to Elie.
I doubt my last two will be listed so I add them now to a list in no particular order; Strandhill and Carnoustie Burnside.
Enniscrone
Portrush Valley
Lahinch
Cruden Bay
North Berwick West Links
Pennard
St Enodoc
Prestwick
Ciao
-
Pennard
Brora
Portsalon
Narin and Portnoo
Dunfanaghy
Portrush valley
Northwest
Dooks
RCD
Dunaverty
St. Enodoc
-
So far;
TOC
North Berwick
Prestwick
Barnbougle Dunes
Royal Dornoch
Carnoustie
After that it is abit of a blur at the moment without going back to play them again.
-
Hard to reconcile how I could leave two of my 10's out of my ten, but these are the ones that first came to my heart.
Which 10's did not make it?
Muirfield and Dornoch.
-
Two that haven't been mentioned, but are in my Top Ten, are Kennemer and West Cornwall.
Ulrich
-
My top 10 links played:
1) County Down
2) The Old Course
3) Muirfield
4) Royal Troon
5) Carnoustie
6) Portrush
7) Cruden Bay
8) Royal Aberdeen
9) Lytham St Annes
10) The New Course
-
Sean
Based on my understanding of your tastes and on what's on your list, I'm not sure you'd love Elie. It's not entirely a flat links, but it's mostly a flat links. You'd probably like it, though. Go play it.
Also, stop beating on Sheehy. His plumping of inland US courses is ink and oxygen taken away from the otherwise relentless RCP Machine. Huzzah huzzah.
-
Limited in that I have only been to Ireland . . albeit often . . . and not sure how to count Bandon
RCD
Enniscrone
Portrush
Lahinch
Portmarnock
Pac Dunes
Baltray
Ballyliffin Old
Rosses Point
The Island
-
Sean
Based on my understanding of your tastes and on what's on your list, I'm not sure you'd love Elie. It's not entirely a flat links, but it's mostly a flat links. You'd probably like it, though. Go play it.
Also, stop beating on Sheehy. His plumping of inland US courses is ink and oxygen taken away from the otherwise relentless RCP Machine. Huzzah huzzah.
Mark
Sheehy has a good life. He needs checking once in a while.
I never really think about flat vs hilly vs dunesy, but looking at my favourites I seem to go for hilly/dunesy courses. I think what my courses demonstrate, for the most part, is a good walk thru varied terrain and a good mix of challenge/easy/funk without being terribly difficult. I would like nothing more to find more interesting flatish courses. A few on my list don't have much elevation change. And I admit that if TOC wasn't super famous with all the baggage and hassle that comes with it, it would likely make my list.
Ciao
-
My favorite links played to date in no particular order.
St Andrews
North Berwick
Lahinch
Dooks
Portrush
Royal County Down
Muirfield
Western Gailes
Prestwick
Elie
I have seen countless others but for me each of these gave me lasting memories that I will never forget. I have left out Troon, Ballybunion, Cruden Bay and countless others. How can you fault Peper for liking what he put in print, to each their own.
-
1. Royal County Down
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Ballybunion - Old
4. Pacific Dunes
5. Ballyneal
6. The Old Course
7. Lahinch - Old
8. Royal Portrush - Dunluce
9. Royal Aberdeen - Balgownie
10. Cruden Bay
-
The Old Course
Royal Dornoch
Royal County Down
Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Pacific Dunes
Barnbougle Dunes
St Enodoc
Ballyneal
Perranporth
-
This list is not real original, but links golf needs to have a bit of magic to make my list. My memories from these venues included some magic.
Old Course - match with my father was one of my favoroite golf experiences
Lahinch - too long of a story to fit here, but great fun in a terrific setting
Western Gailes - Round at twilight was magical and totally unexpected because the course was not on our itinerary. I heard about it somewhere and set it up - good move
Lundin Links - many wonderful memories from the Buda Cup held there
Royal Dornoch - played it when the gorse was in bloom
Turnberry Ailsa - have visited twice and played the course 4-5 times. Generally Americans will list it as my favorite
Prestwick - I hit a great tee shot slightly left of the pin on 2. The caddie had told me to keep it right but this seemed close enough to be ok. My playing companion said "great shot." My caddie said - "that is dead." The caddie was right.
Ballybunion Old - Not a much better place to spend 3 hours in evening light
Pennard - I do not like the 18th, but the rest of the course makes up for it
Royal Porthcawl - it was a thrill to play a course without manure on the Wales trip. Greatly enjoyed my rounds there
-
This was exactly the post I was thinking of when I saw the other one. My ten favorites are, in no particular order...
Lahinch
Machrihanish
The Old Course
Enniscrone
Royal St. Georges
Royal Cinque Ports
Brora
Portrush
North Berwick
Waterville
-
In no such order
1) Muirfield
2) Carnoustie
3) Prestwick
4) Turnberry
5) Royal Lytham
6) Gullane 1
7) North Berwick
8) Western Gailes
9) Kingsbarns
10) Panmure
Such good memories of them all and also of the 10 I've probably left out!!!
-
In no particular order:
Muirfield
St Andrews Old
RCD
Ballybunion Old
Portmarnock
Barnbougle
Royal Birkdale
Paraparaumu
Lahinch
Pacific Dunes
-
Two that haven't been mentioned, but are in my Top Ten, are Kennemer and West Cornwall.
Ulrich
Zowie, West Cornwall? While, it doesn't make my list, I have a lot of time for the course. I still recall being intrigued by a bag tag many moons ago. I struck up a conversation with a guy who was a country member. He had high praise for West Cornwall. I knew I had to see it! Its one of those Doak 4s that is pure joy - quite unusual that.
Ciao
-
A lot of love for Enniscrone in this thread and rightly so.
For those who played it before, are the additions by Donald Steele for the better?
-
Ryan
I did not play it before Steele's work but the 9 hole Scurmore consists of a number of holes that were abandoned after Steele went into the high dunes. They are quite good in their own right though a few are on very flat terrain. The best of the bunch is the par 3 seventh which plays blind up into the dunes. A very cool and quirky hole!
-
Sean. I understand your desire for finding good value in courses, but when listing a top 10, do you really not consider any of the big names worthy? RCD, Old Course, Muirfield, RSG? I know in the past you've mentioned your fondness for RSG, so that's the reason I'm asking. Some of the ones I have enjoyed.
RCD, RSG, Deal, Portrush (Dunluce), Enniscrone, Carne, Rye, Portstewart.
-
Sean. I understand your desire for finding good value in courses, but when listing a top 10, do you really not consider any of the big names worthy? RCD, Old Course, Muirfield, RSG? I know in the past you've mentioned your fondness for RSG, so that's the reason I'm asking. Some of the ones I have enjoyed.
RCD, RSG, Deal, Portrush (Dunluce), Enniscrone, Carne, Rye, Portstewart.
Henry
Sure the courses you mention are worthy. I like them all to one degree or another. But for several years now I have been "down-sizing" my golf :D The down-sizing light bulb moment came many years ago when I played Brora and Dornoch back to back. I had more fun at Brora and for less than half the green fee. Anyway, I have many heavyweights among my favourites, just not top championship designs simply for the reason that I find championship courses too difficult to really be fun for me.
Ciao
-
Henry
Sure the courses you mention are worthy. I like them all to one degree or another. But for several years now I have been "down-sizing" my golf :D The down-sizing light bulb moment came many years ago when I played Brora and Dornoch back to back. I had more fun at Brora and for less than half the green fee. Anyway, I have many heavyweights among my favourites, just not top championship designs simply for the reason that I find championship courses too difficult to really be fun for me.
Ciao
Bingo. I can't recall more important words spoken here for the average lurking 15 handicapper. Why much of the various Top 100 list criteria do a huge disservice to the fat part of the golfing bell curve and why those who slavishly seek out only ranked courses are to be pitied.
-
"down-sizing" my golf :D The down-sizing light bulb moment came many years ago when I played Brora and Dornoch back to back. I had more fun at Brora and for less than half the green fee. Anyway, I have many heavyweights among my favourites, just not top championship designs simply for the reason that I find championship courses too difficult to really be fun for me.
Ciao
I find it very difficult to disagree with this. A tough challenge on a biggy course is nice, occasionally, and as an architectural experience, but taken too far can be limited fun, and for me as an enthusiastic amateur, fun is an important element of the game.
The next step in "down-sizing", a term I really like by the way, is using hickories!!! :)
I agree with the comments and frequency of Enniscrone appearing above. A splendid tough links. I would like to accompany a very highly skilled player around Enniscrone and watch them play their shots into those table-top greens, I'm sure it would be a very educational experience. I wanted one real 'toughy' but it was a coin-toss between it and Carnoustie, and sorry E'crone, but C'tie flipped on top.
Atb
-
Let me throw a spanner in the works…
I am not entirely sure these championship courses you gents refer to are actually tougher… They are just bigger…. And therefore they have the capability to play tough from the back tees, purely on length alone…. Quite often, smaller courses play tough because the scale is smaller and there is less room for mistakes…
In addition, I’m not sure if these championship courses don’t represent as much fun either. It’s just easier to see the fun in a small course first time around…. The only thing that I will definitely concede is that length of walk has a direct relationship to fun... and I too like Sean’s term “downsizing”…
But as an example, I played Dornoch for the first time last month… I played it from the 6,300 yard daily tees and I found it a whole heap of fun, despite its tough reputation… If I continued to play the course and learn it better, I believe the fun quotient of playing it would only increase and I would get incrementally more fun from playing it than I would from a similar number of rounds at Brora up the road…
I don’t think that Championship = tough = no fun
I can think of quite a few other examples where the big course is more fun than the small course to be honest…
-
Ally
I find the champ courses have just that many more bunkers (which really effects recovery shots), generally less beautiful and often a combo of rough and/or narrow fairways - which can all combine to reduce the fun factor...for me. I can fully understand some guys get into the added challenge, but I don't really need to pay extra for that. On the flip side, on a lovely winter's day champ courses can be great fun. I guess ya gotta pick and choose the time holdem' or foldem'.
Ciao
-
So as a for-instance...
Given that my favorite Royal St. George's is about as "championship" as they get what would you consider a course with similar setting, topography, turf and a similar number of memorable holes except in the "downsized" category?
-
Brent
Sandwich is pretty much a one-off no? It could well be the best course in England and it is easy to see why it would be a favourite of many. I spose if one were downsizing he may go with Dornoch ? Yours is a difficult question.
Ciao
-
Sean,
You're probably right about Royal St. George's being sui generis. Or at the very least, there may be a certain scale and boldness of the overall layout that is necessarily lost if you try to imagine "downsizing" it. Part of what's special about the course is how it is draped over that utterly spectacular piece of land.
Thinking instead about Dornoch vs. Brora, one can at least venture to imagine Brora as a "downsized" alternative to Royal Dornoch (although I'm not sure that Dornoch seems "downsized" at all to me vs. Sandwich). The pieces of land are somewhat similar but honestly, Royal Dornoch seemed to me to be about as difficult a course as one could ever build on that piece of property (without being tricked up in any way, I mean). Whereas Brora uses a similar landform to provide about as straightforward a course as one could build without becoming the least bit boring.
To me that's an interesting alternative formulation to your "downsizing"...
Given a type of landform, some courses seem to go out of their way to provide a "challenge" and are limited only by the land and by the necessity of avoiding ridiculous gimmicks or flatly unplayable features (given whatever the local weather extremes might be). That's the category into which I'd place Royal Dornoch.
An alternative is to take the land you're given and provide "fun" for a wide range of golfers, including those who might be playing it twice a day (or more) or perhaps 100's of times a year. As such, given a nicely contoured bit of property it may not be necessary to build in explicit "challenges" and you could just concentrate on walk-in-the-park appeal and providing as much variety and interest as possible while remaining "fun".
-
I've always thought of RSG as a downsized Lahinch! ;)
-
I tend to lose more balls on small courses than on big ones to be honest. I don't find that fun.
I get the bunker comment in general though.
Is Ballybee upsized or downsized?
-
I try and keep costs out of the discussion but it is a favourites list, so each to his own. I can get courtesy at most courses but funnily enough, my favourites are the ones where I don't in most cases.
Brora aside, I think most of the best links are priced about right relative to their rivals. The Ayrshire/Glasgow courses might also be another exception, thinking about it (in the other direction). Generally speaking downsizing on price does mean a notch or two down on quality IMO.
-
My upcoming trip is a definite and deliberate "downsizing" of costs but not necessarily courses. Won't know about quality until I get there.
I'm doing three days at Royal St. Davids (five rounds) plus a bonus round on a fourth day at Aberdovey. The cost along with three nights in the Dormy House at Harlech will be about equal to one 36-hole day pass at Royal St. George's.
It's my understanding that the course at Harlech is of the "championship" type. So in light of the current discussion it will be an interesting mix of "downsize" in all respects other than length and difficulty of the course itself. Now I'll be interested to see how the experience stacks up against a similar three-day (six round) stay at Ganton a couple years ago.
-
Brent
Harlech isn't "championship" in the same way most rota courses are. Harlech is compact and Sandwich rambles around everywhere. The main reason for Harlech's rep of difficulty is due to the stingy par of 69, but still about 6200 yards from the daily tees. In effect the "loss" of three shots to par translates to probably an "extra" 400 yards on the card. Meaning the course will feel like its longer than it really is, perversely because of only two par 5s :D. This makes for a difficult and fairly long set of 4s. Its all a paper exercise, but the effect feels real - especially if the wind is blowing. Additionally, Harlech is bunkered much like a championshiop course in that is has near relentless defensive lines of bunkering; first off the tee, second near the green and third, often somewhere in between the two (these are what usually cause grief for recoveries). Harlech was the course which made me fully understand that added length isn't the solution to flat bellies, altering par value is the solution. Harlech will be all the test you could want or need and for you, will probably feel just as difficult as any true champ course from the daily tees.
I have a lot of time for Harlech. It was one of the three shortlisted for 10 Fav, but left out. Perranporth and Reniassance are the other two.
Ciao
-
I do understand the spanner in the works position. However, 'downsizing' in relation to some of the biggies, isn't really about the cash or about the bunkers for me, not to fussed about bunkers from a playing rather than architectural aspect to be honest, it's more about carries off the tee and the frequency and necessity of having to play long irons and hybrids as approach shots on par-4's and for tee shots on par-3's when the fun aspect can decline. I also appreciate the 'pick the right tee' point of view, but sometimes, like in scheduled weekend club comps, you have to play off the further back tees and then the longer biggies change character, particularly from the perspective of a regular playing member as against an occasional or once-only visitor. I like a long 'toughie' course every now and then though, and a strong wind too, as a challenge, particularly if there are no forced carries off the tee.
Atb
-
Atb
I am not sure what you consider long forced carries, but are there many links which make this a problem for you? I know at Burnham the Ladies Section is not as full as the club would like. One reason is the forced carries. On many holes, a foozle is in deep doo doo. This too is the reason the club invested heavily in the Channel Course recently and created a seperate membership. They want a place for kids, women and older members who don't want the challenge of the Champ course anymore to play. I think it has gone very well in terms of members moving down and Channel members moving up to main membership. The membership fee is quite reasonable. Hell, for visitors playing the Champ course, the charge is only an extra £5 to play the Channel. Just to play the Channel its only about £25 all day any day.
Ciao
-
Thomas,
I fully understand that position and I have to admit, I do get huge enjoyment from downsizing as well… Strandhill and Arklow provide two excellent examples of downsized links that are playable and quick to get round… If I lived close by and had these as my day to day members course, I’d be delighted… These are genuinely smaller links courses though…
However, some of the ones being highlighted as “downsizing” appear to be tougher than quite a few of the ones being highlighted as “championship”, many of which are very playable, strategic and a whole heap of fun, given the right tees… I think they are highlighted because they are not as well known (giving Irish examples I will highlight Enniscrone and The Island) and this is mistakenly being read as non-championship therefore less tough therefore more fun…. My point again being championship (from the right tees), tough and fun are not related…
-
Sean,
In no particular order:
Royal Cinque Ports
Rye
County Louth
Barnbougle Dunes
Barwon Heads Burnham & Berrow
Silloth-on-Solway
Royal Dornoch
Brora
North Berwick West Links
St Enodoc
-
Sean,
In no particular order:
Royal Cinque Ports
Rye
County Louth
Barnbougle Dunes
Barwon Heads Burnham & Berrow
Silloth-on-Solway
Royal Dornoch
Brora
North Berwick West Links
St Enodoc
Scott
I love it that you included Rye. You have repeatedly bad-mouthed the course ;) yet, there it is. Seriously, the inclusion of Rye validates my GCA.com theory # 07: Practically all the courses we talk about on this site are wonderful, good, great etc etc. Most of our discussions are assumed in this context. So it may seem as though harsh words are being dealt, but only in comparison to other wonderful, good, great courses.
Ciao
-
This may not be the ideal thread but it's about "links" golf and I don't want to start a thread to discuss a topic that surely has been discussed before. My question is, can someone provide me with a good definition/description of what is true "links" golf?
In my mind, I know what it is, but I'm not sure I know how to describe it to others. The reason I ask is that a golfing friend of mine asked me this week what is true links golf, as opposed to links-style , which we see and hear about regularly in the US. It got me thinking that I know it when I see it (at the Open) but I'm not sure I know enough to accurately and adequately describe what it really is, and why it's worth knowing about it.
-
I just realized I've played twelve courses that I consider "links", not eleven. Forgot all about the Struie course at Dornoch, probably because I played just one round there in a steady rain and my memory of the course is a blur of poor shots and lost balls.
Still, to Sean's latest point the two "least great" links courses I've played are probably the Struie and Golspie. And I'd choose a round at either of those over 90% of the courses I've ever played back home. Can't say for sure about Struie but Golspie is definitely a very fine course indeed. It only suffers in comparison to the best courses I've ever seen.
-
Brian
I can only offer my PoV as to the definition of links.
1. Links is near the sea, hence, how the term originally came about; poor quality land between the sea and arable land.
2. The terrain may or may not be undulating, but dunes are often associated with links.
3. Links is characterized by infertile, sandy soil and cool season grasses such as fescues, bents and marram.
4. When well managed, the turf is crisp, dry and firm.
5. Due to the location of links, wind can often play a major role in play.
The main arguments about links seem to revolve around near the sea and the types of grass. For instance, some may call Kiawah a links, but the warm season grass varieties expose the course as an imposter.
The five points above made, there can always be room for exceptions depending on how far away from the sea the course is located. Lytham is always cited as an example of a links removed from the sea. In truth it isn't terribly far away and I suspect of housing was removed, the sea may be visible from the links. I am possibly willing to stretch to Ganton being termed a links, but for the sake of argument, this sets precedent and guys like Humpty who then want to claim that courses in Nebraska or Colorado are links. This to me is preposterous as they are so far removed from the sea that no exception could include them. Instead of trying to ride the marketing coat tails of "links", these cllubs should come up wiith their own original term.
Anyway, thats my story.
Ciao
-
I brought up Harlech earlier and was going to riff a little on my expectations of how it might compare to Ganton (keeping in mind the limited set of links and near-links in my experience). In terms of the ubiquity of bunkers pretty much everywhere you might want to play a shot or a recovery shot I was thinking that Harlech might play like a narrower, longer-for-its-par poor cousin to Ganton.
But given the 15+ mile setback from the sea at Ganton I was casting about for some other parallel and settled on Birkdale. I'll bet Birkdale has fewer total bunkers than Harlech (or Ganton) if you simply counted up all the white spots on a Google Earth image. But the huge reach of Birkdale's bunkers out into the fairways to gather passing shots made it play, for me, like a very much "championship" challenge. So maybe Birkdale is an interesting case for this discussion.
I've only played one round there but have seen many round of the pros playing on TV. Birkdale strikes me as being a perfectly enjoyable course with plenty of width, the playing corridors tending to be routed along the flatter terrain between dune lines and the greens are not particularly scary (compared to, say, Royal Dornoch's green complexes). Were it not for the dozen or so shots I had rolling into various fairway or greenside bunkers I'd be tempted to say Royal Birkdale is an exception to the distinction between "championship" challenge and "downsized" fun. But the bunkering does really get into ones head I'll admit.
-
I brought up Harlech earlier and was going to riff a little on my expectations of how it might compare to Ganton (keeping in mind the limited set of links and near-links in my experience). In terms of the ubiquity of bunkers pretty much everywhere you might want to play a shot or a recovery shot I was thinking that Harlech might play like a narrower, longer-for-its-par poor cousin to Ganton.
But given the 15+ mile setback from the sea at Ganton I was casting about for some other parallel and settled on Birkdale. I'll bet Birkdale has fewer total bunkers than Harlech (or Ganton) if you simply counted up all the white spots on a Google Earth image. But the huge reach of Birkdale's bunkers out into the fairways to gather passing shots made it play, for me, like a very much "championship" challenge. So maybe Birkdale is an interesting case for this discussion.
I've only played one round there but have seen many round of the pros playing on TV. Birkdale strikes me as being a perfectly enjoyable course with plenty of width, the playing corridors tending to be routed along the flatter terrain between dune lines and the greens are not particularly scary (compared to, say, Royal Dornoch's green complexes). Were it not for the dozen or so shots I had rolling into various fairway or greenside bunkers I'd be tempted to say Royal Birkdale is an exception to the distinction between "championship" challenge and "downsized" fun. But the bunkering does really get into ones head I'll admit.
Brent - you are providing that distinction that I just don't agree with.
What "stops" a course from being fun? I'll give length of walk as one and that is where many "championship" (i.e. long) courses lose out....
...But other things that stop a course from being "fun" include narrow fairways / lost balls.... Often, I find the bigger courses provide less opportunity to lose balls; because the roughs are managed better (usually due to maintenance budgets) and because the scale around the greens are much bigger with larger run-offs....
Also, continually missing greens with well executed shots is less "fun" - smaller courses often have smaller greens and less room around them... That can get frustrating...
Also, lack of strategy is less "fun".... I'm all for reducing bunkers where it makes sense, especially on hugely undulating sites... On those types of courses, best let the land define the strategy... But on flatter courses, you sometimes need extra bunkers and there is no arguing that thee courses can be highly strategic and need to be plotted round....
I know Mike Nuzzo (?) wrote an essay dividing courses between championship , fun and another category (?)... I just happen to disagree with the premise... Large doesn't necessarily equal slog just as small doesn't necessarily equal fun....
(P.S. In other words, Birkdale is by no means the only exception... The exceptions are so numerous that they cannot be called exceptions and the rule therefore does not stand)
-
It's too bad Sean has banned discussion of Westward Ho! but on the other hand perhaps many others share his view that it's a flat, soggy, boggy course with a significant number of boring holes.
-
Sean,
Indeed and absolutely.
Rye, St Enodoc and NSWGC are three courses I have been fairly critical of at times, but if you told me I would play out my days on any one of them, I'd be happy as Larry doing so.
-
It's too bad Sean has banned discussion of Westward Ho! but on the other hand perhaps many others share his view that it's a flat, soggy, boggy course with a significant number of boring holes.
I'll talk about WH!, compadre, as I'm too old to be banned from anything I don't want to be banned from.
It was close to getting WH! onto my top ten links faves, but it fell at the last hurdle as it has too many not links holes. That being said, it has a great clubhouse and ~9 of the finest and most fun links holes in the world, which is ~9 true links holes and one great clubhouse more than more than faux links such as Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes and Pennard.
-
Interesting exchange for an outsider re 'downsizing'.
After all these years I think I have a sense of Sean's golfing tastes. I think they are actually quite nuanced (more than just 'good value' and 'not too hard').
It seems to me that Sean likes to keep golf and golf courses in some kind of proper perspective -- the game, with grown men wandering around together in good fellowship for a good walk on good turf while swinging sticks, being mainly what golf is all about.
For Sean, I think, golf's tests and epiphanies and belt notches and sacred architectural fields of play are all secondary to that basic experience, to that game. (He's like an old money man -- the belt notching he leaves to the nouveau riche).
All of which to say, I'd suggest that Sean's preference is not so much for downsized courses as for modest ones -- courses that support and engender and reflect a proper perspective, and that provide as many chances as possible (that is where cost comes in) for good walks on good turf with good companions while also providing some challenges and interest.
Peter
-
Interesting exchange for an outsider re 'downsizing'.
After all these years I think I have a sense of Sean's golfing tastes. I think they are actually quite nuanced (more than just 'good value' and 'not too hard').
It seems to me that Sean likes to keep golf and golf courses in some kind of proper perspective -- the game, with grown men wandering around together in good fellowship for a good walk on good turf while swinging sticks, being mainly what golf is all about.
For Sean, I think, golf's tests and epiphanies and belt notches and sacred architectural fields of play are all secondary to that basic experience, to that game. (He's like an old money man -- the belt notching he leaves to the nouveau riche).
All of which to say, I'd suggest that Sean's preference is not so much for downsized courses as for modest ones -- courses that support and engender and reflect a proper perspective, and that provide as many chances as possible (that is where cost comes in) for good walks on good turf with good companions while also providing some challenges and interest.
Peter
Peter - I agree with your analysis of Sean (I guess we'll see if he does)...
But in the above respect, I don't think it is a different perspective to that of Mark Bourgeois or Rich Goodale (to name but two) or my own....
Like those 20+ handicappers on greens committees who still look down on course amendments that might make it "too easy", I think there's a little pre-programming that has some of us - like automatons - equating fun to some nominal type of downsized course.
the game, with grown men wandering around together in good fellowship for a good walk on good turf while swinging sticks, being mainly what golf is all about can be the primary objective on a variety of playing fields, some tough, some easy, some large, some small.... But all of a certain quality that provides that joy to be alive factor... in other words, fun....
It is my belief that David Tepper has it spot on in the months he lives in Scotland... He is a member of Royal Dornoch and he is a member of Golspie... He divides his time about 7-3 to the former... he has all bases covered but I suspect he has fun at both courses equally...
-
I am possibly willing to stretch to Ganton being termed a links, but for the sake of argument, this sets precedent and guys like Humpty who then want to claim that courses in Nebraska or Colorado are links. This to me is preposterous as they are so far removed from the sea that no exception could include them. Instead of trying to ride the marketing coat tails of "links", these cllubs should come up wiith their own original term.
Sean:
I generally don't call Ballyneal and Sand Hills and Dismal River "links" courses, but I believe I've read that all the dunes are there because there was a vast inland lake in prehistoric times, which eventually receded.
-
Cretaceous Sea.
-
Royal Birkdale
St Andrews
Western Gailes
Burnham and Berrow
Muirfield
Formby
Royal Liverpool
Royal St davids
North Berwick
Turnberry
I would include Pac Dunes, Ballyneal, Sand Hills and Ganton...if they were considered.
-
"It is my belief that David Tepper has it spot on in the months he lives in Scotland... He is a member of Royal Dornoch and he is a member of Golspie... He divides his time about 7-3 to the former... he has all bases covered but I suspect he has fun at both courses equally..."
Ally -
I am indeed a very lucky guy. i get to enjoy my thoroughly mediocre golf on two wonderful (and different) courses. ;)
DT
-
MWP,
Pac Dunes is considered a true links.
-
Jud...then I cant get past that first hole at North Berwick and it gets cut.
I am sure there are others that love the quirk of that first hole, just not me.
-
Cretaceous Sea.
It's the same reason we have all that sand in North Carolina and South Carolina.
(http://palaeos.com/vertebrates/aves/images/Late-Cretaceous3.gif)
-
Cretaceous Sea.
It's the same reason we have all that sand in North Carolina and South Carolina.
(http://palaeos.com/vertebrates/aves/images/Late-Cretaceous3.gif)
Michael:
Thanks for posting that map. I couldn't find one yesterday, though I read a long research paper about wind-deposited sand in the Sand Hills of Nebraska.
Seems like that map identifies a lot of good places to look for sandy golf land [in the white areas I presume]. The one that intrigues me is the big area by the "an" in "European Islands" ... that would seem to be somewhere in eastern Europe. I wonder where is all the sand there?
-
Michael:
Thanks for posting that map. I couldn't find one yesterday, though I read a long research paper about wind-deposited sand in the Sand Hills of Nebraska.
Seems like that map identifies a lot of good places to look for sandy golf land [in the white areas I presume]. The one that intrigues me is the big area by the "an" in "European Islands" ... that would seem to be somewhere in eastern Europe. I wonder where is all the sand there?
Sometimes the sea deposits hundreds of feet of clay. :P
As for the "an", my advice is to look for the potato fields!
-
Tom - Germany, Poland, the Baltic states, you name it. Lots in Czech Republic and Slovakia. Much is very highly protected of course. But there are many opportunities around central and eastern Europe. Jonathan Davison of this parish is roaming all over the region looking at great sites - Penati in Slovakia, where Jonathan built the second course (opens last year) is as good a piece of pine and heather property as you could wish to see. If the original master plan had been done by someone with more knowledge of and sympathy for golf there would have been very few limits to the possibilities. As it is, Jonathan's course is still terrific.
-
Brent, when you asked about which course most resembled a downscale RSG, i thought about Saunton on the basis that they have in common quite a dramatic dune-scape. But i think asking for a downscale course with the same amount of good holes is asking too much!
On Sean's general point about Dornoch v Brora and the latter being less demanding/more pleasurable - I agree with the general point but would make two observations:
- for the last 15 years, 8 of us have played an annual weekend of 36 holes at Brora and 54 at Dornoch. Average handicap is about 14 and includes 2-3 pretty irregular golfers. Although the general perception is that Brora is a bit easier - the warm-up course - i am not sure that the scores especially bear this out. Sure it is harder to lose balls at Brora, but that does not make it easy to score on. To take one example - none of the last four holes is an easy par - indeed, they are all quite difficult in their different ways. I am not trying to argue that Brora is the match of Dornoch or as difficult, just the overall playability of the two courses is not, in our experience, as divergent as you might assume.
- and in relation to Dornoch in particular, most guests play it relatively short and although it obviously has more demanding greens/bunkering than Brora, it is not when played at this length a course that chews up the golfer. Indeed, i think that is part of its appeal - you know you are playing a very good course, but it is not set up as a slog. Indeed, even a modest 2-ball can get round in 3 hrs 15 or so which just adds to the pleasure.
Unrelated to the above: I recently played Birkdale and Deal within three days of each other, which was quite an interesting experience. It was really striking how different they were. To my mind Birkdale is a "faux" links - it has the attributes but not the character of a true links. I only had to play three holes at Deal though to be reminded what a real links is like - and it is pretty different to Birkdale!
Philip
-
Brent, when you asked about which course most resembled a downscale RSG, i thought about Saunton on the basis that they have in common quite a dramatic dune-scape. But i think asking for a downscale course with the same amount of good holes is asking too much!
Probably just as well no such course exists. If it did, I'd be forced to move there.
Unrelated to the above: I recently played Birkdale and Deal within three days of each other, which was quite an interesting experience. It was really striking how different they were. To my mind Birkdale is a "faux" links - it has the attributes but not the character of a true links. I only had to play three holes at Deal though to be reminded what a real links is like - and it is pretty different to Birkdale!
I agree as to the nature of the two courses with the proviso that during my round at Birkdale for me it was on the most glorious feeling links turf I'd ever struck a 5-iron on.
But in many ways Royal Birkdale's actual routing and the holes themselves seem like an extremely well sorted inland "championship" course. Over the years I'd say much of the quirk, iffy bounces and randomness of links golf has been buffed down to a tournament player's type of perfection. I'd play there again any time, of course. Fine course. But you can tell it's been optimized very well as a big time competition course.
-
re sandy soils
I'm just back from a couple of days on Lake Huron, at a little campground just north of Grand Bend Ontario. My wife tells me that, like parts of Wasaga Beach/Collingwood (on Huron's Georgian Bay), this area is a Carolinian ecosystem, which as the name implies is similar to that found in the U.S. Carolinas and is characterized by that certain kind/variety of vegetation and by sandy soil. But I can't think of any courses in either of these areas noted for their sandy soil/water side/linksy feel, save for Doug Carrick's rarely mentioned (and I've never played it) Cobble Beach, near Collingwood.
For those who know: why is that? All around the southern parts of the Great Lakes, is there not some kind of similarity to the conditions/soil that could make for courses with at least a few links like qualities?
Peter
-
I'll prepare to be debated on CPC and BT being eligible!
I'll play the role of Patrick Mucci:
Which holes at either Cypress Point or Bandon Trails are on links land? Bandon Trails has even more holes in the forest than CPC.
CPC - 2, 3, 8, 9, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17
BT - only 1, 2 & 18 but every hole plays firm & fast and the course is quite windy. Of course, by any definition of a links having to do with trees, one can certainly claim BT does not qualify.
-
Even though it doesn't say it in the directions, I am assuming you have to play the courses in the top ten:
1) Pac Dunes
2) Old course
3) North Berwick
4) Jubilee Course
5) Elie
6) Old Mac
7) Chambers Bay
8) Gullane #1
9) Lundin
10 a) New Course
10 b) Carnoustie
-
Just bumping this because I was really enjoying the twist it took around post 74. It was impacting on a Question I've often asked myself.
Why do we enjoy some courses more than others.
A (obviously) because they are more fun to play.
It was this anwer that first drew me to studying GCA.
Yet when I chose my list of fun courses I went with mostly 'big' courses. I have avoided the really obviously bunkered ones like Lytham and agree with Ally when he says bigger greens with wider run off areas can make for fun. Deal (Hi Mark) plays like that and has only 40 bunkers, it still fun to play. But maybe I haven’t played the big courses enough to realise their smaller sisters can be more fun. Personally I've not quite worked it all out.
I'm still at a bit of a loss as why such good ball strikers like Sean and Jeff have chosen downsized or even shorter courses as favourites, beyond that it takes all sorts.
Anyone else have opinions as to what makes for a fun and favourite links course?
(I’m thinking of you Mr Warne!)
-
Spangles
I am convinced that 6000 yards is all most golfers need, including myself. There are so many wonderful examples of the type(s) that I am almost prejusticed against courses longer than 6200-6300. I see all types and styles and have to wonder why is it so hard to create cool 6000 yard courses? I wonder why the need for the yardage just as I wonder why the need for 100 bunkers. Playing Cavendish recently confirmed my love for short, crafty courses. I know you think I am crazy becaus eyou are more fond of the seaside than hills, but I would take Cavendish in a heart beat over the courses we saw in Donegal. To my mind, the design is far more crafty, purposeful and more efficient than the often disjointed and inconsistent designs we saw in Donegal. That could well be down to a superior archie working the land. Its hard to put it in words, but I greatly admire the technically savvy and efficient course. Maybe you will get an inkling of my meaning at Kington.
Ciao
-
Tony,
I think there's an element in what makes a favourite that depends on external factors. When you play a course (I'm nearly always on holiday when I play Elie), who you played with and the circumstances (I first played Carnoustie with my wife shortly after we married in torrential rain) and club atmosphere (I love the atmosphere around HCEG). That said, my ten is:
Elie
Muirfield
Dornoch
Silloth
Goswick
Eden
Carnoustie
TOC
Deal
Prestwick
I suspect Golspie might have a shout if I knew it better and both Cruden Bay and Hoylake, for very different reasons, were in consideration. Both are "better" courses than some on my list.
-
I'm totally in favor of courses give or take from 6,000 yards as long as they are NOT short simply because they're squeezed onto a small parcel of land. Short and tight is no better than long and tight I guess I'm saying.
The shortest course that I've really, really enjoyed was probably Pitlochry. There's so much elevation change, on virtually every hole almost every shot, that you feel like you've played far more than 5,800 yards or whatever it was. The rough was quite deep in places but every single playing corridor except for that one ridiculously, squeeze-in downhill Par 3 on the back nine was amply wide. Which it needed to be given the awkward uphill/downhill/sidehill lies and bounces.
-
Royal County Down
Ballybunion Old
Pacific Dunes
Portrush Dunluce
Lahinch
Barnbougle Dunes
County Louth
Ballyliffin Old
The Island
Waterville
-
Spangles
I am convinced that 6000 yards is all most golfers need, including myself. There are so many wonderful examples of the type(s) that I am almost prejusticed against courses longer than 6200-6300. I see all types and styles and have to wonder why is it so hard to create cool 6000 yard courses? I wonder why the need for the yardage just as I wonder why the need for 100 bunkers. Playing Cavendish recently confirmed my love for short, crafty courses. I know you think I am crazy becaus eyou are more fond of the seaside than hills, but I would take Cavendish in a heart beat over the courses we saw in Donegal. To my mind, the design is far more crafty, purposeful and more efficient than the often disjointed and inconsistent designs we saw in Donegal. That could well be down to a superior archie working the land. Its hard to put it in words, but I greatly admire the technically savvy and efficient course. Maybe you will get an inkling of my meaning at Kington.
Ciao
So now we have three proposals.
Mine
130 155 180 205 230 255 280 305 330 355 380 405 430 455 480 505 530 555 = 6165
Jason's
150 175 200 225 250 275 300 325 350 375 400 425 450 475 500 525 550 575 = 6525
Tom's in meters
130 160 190 220 250 280 310 340 370 400 430 460 490 520 550 580 610 640 = 7290
From another thread. Jason made a proposal that happened to fall between one I had done on a thread, and Tom Doak's proposal for the Olympics' course. So I'm happy with 6165, letting the big guns play to par 67 or 68, while old farts like me play it at par 72.
I think 6000 is a little short for par 72, but fine for par 70.
-
Just bumping this because I was really enjoying the twist it took around post 74. It was impacting on a Question I've often asked myself.
Why do we enjoy some courses more than others.
A (obviously) because they are more fun to play.
It was this anwer that first drew me to studying GCA.
Yet when I chose my list of fun courses I went with mostly 'big' courses. I have avoided the really obviously bunkered ones like Lytham and agree with Ally when he says bigger greens with wider run off areas can make for fun. Deal (Hi Mark) plays like that and has only 40 bunkers, it still fun to play. But maybe I haven’t played the big courses enough to realise their smaller sisters can be more fun. Personally I've not quite worked it all out.
I'm still at a bit of a loss as why such good ball strikers like Sean and Jeff have chosen downsized or even shorter courses as favourites, beyond that it takes all sorts.
Anyone else have opinions as to what makes for a fun and favourite links course?
(I’m thinking of you Mr Warne!)
Tony,
Firm turf, scenery, wind, options, rawness, wildness, subtlety, vertical challenges, 1/2 par holes, absence of consistent deep lost ball gunch (one side OK), variety in width of playing corridors
-
I'm totally in favor of courses give or take from 6,000 yards as long as they are short simply because they're squeezed onto a small parcel of land. Short and tight is no better than long and tight I guess I'm saying.
Brent
Thats just it. Developers and owners won't consider building a course on the terms you state...health and safety and that crap you know. Yet, the same target market they hope to attract will quite happily play older versions of this course. There was a drastic shift in thinking on this matter long before "the big ball", yet new equipment etc gets the easy blame. This is usually the case with health and safety excuses, its an easy thing to cite without folks actually properly looking into the matter. I think where there is a will there is a way and its quite obvious there is no will in this department. Owners and archies want to be on the BIG is BETTER bandwagon partly because the marketing hype is already in place. Why fight the stream marketing with an oddball course heaidng the other direction? I remain hopeful that some smart guy like Kaiser figures out a way to make rolling the dice on smaller is better a viable money making option. Jeepers, these days we are meeant to get excited by a downsized course that is "only" 6800 yards from the tips...like that makes any difference to the daily hacker. If the conversation ever truly turns away from back tees, pros and top amateurs, then perhaps a Kaiser look-alike has a chance.
Ciao
-
I'm totally in favor of courses give or take from 6,000 yards as long as they are short simply because they're squeezed onto a small parcel of land. Short and tight is no better than long and tight I guess I'm saying.
Brent
Thats just it. Developers and owners won't consider building a course on the terms you state...health and safety and that crap you know. Yet, the same target market they hope to attract will quite happily play older versions of this course. There was a drastic shift in thinking on this matter long before "the big ball", yet new equipment etc gets the easy blame. This is usually the case with health and safety excuses, its an easy thing to cite without folks actually properly looking into the matter. I think where there is a will there is a way and its quite obvious there is no will in this department. Owners and archies want to be on the BIG is BETTER bandwagon partly because the marketing hype is already in place. Why fight the stream marketing with an oddball course heaidng the other direction? I remain hopeful that some smart guy like Kaiser figures out a way to make rolling the dice on smaller is better a viable money making option. Jeepers, these days we are meeant to get excited by a downsized course that is "only" 6800 yards from the tips...like that makes any difference to the daily hacker. If the conversation ever truly turns away from back tees, pros and top amateurs, then perhaps a Kaiser look-alike has a chance.
Ciao
Health and safety is not to do with the target market being happy to play it or not... After the primary - which is the genuine wellbeing of golfers - the secondary is to do with the club and / or architect being liable for an injury, something they are more so on a modern build and something they are less so on a 100 year old course that has been untouched....
However, I don't like architects using safety excuses as a thinly guised sales pitch to recommend wholesale changes to old courses...
I agree completely with Brent's premise which I think should have read short and spread out is no better than long and tight... It's about flow and making the course feel in scale and consistent in size.... You can still build short courses in relatively small spaces without resorting to safety problems - in fact, that's the point...
Sean - I haven't seen Cavendish yet but I know what you mean in relation to the Donegal courses... But that ain't really about size... It is about the quality of the design
-
"short and crafty", cracking phrase. I haven't played Cavendish but Tadmarton Heath and the Green course and Frilford Heath come to mind, usually firm and fast too, which is a nice bonus inland.
A point about health and safety on courses.
Not long ago I was playing and a ball from another tee landed right at my feet. The other player apologised and said he hadn't shouted "Fore" because he hadn't seen me because there were trees between him and me.
I've noticed this lack of a shout a few times on tree lined courses over the years. Maybe a barrier of trees doesn't necessarily help with safety, as in this instance if there'd been no trees I'd have been on the look out for him teeing off and he'd have seen me and shouted "Fore" and I'd have been alerted to an incoming ProV1. Just a thought.
atb
-
To get back on topic, I just returned from two days of golf at Hunstanton. It was my first time there, and I must regretfully give it space in my 10 Favo(u)rites, replacing Deal.
Why?
Similar sand based turf (in perfectly F&F conditioning), with similar mixtures of pure links and marshy bits. Similar Royal Patrons (Randy Andy, in both places--not sure if he is or is not still persona grata at Deal...). Similarly posh/friendly clubhouses, with similar century long competition champions board of significant public (ie. private, in Brit-speak) high schools. But....
...much better views and local ambience. A better test of golf. Consisently subtle but never whacky greens. Better effective width--mostly obvious space, always hit it short and straight options, more serious penalties if you really go for it and f**k up (both fairways and greensites). More rough and ready. Bottom line...
Not much different and both superb and nearly great (2** on the Richelin scale), but Hunstanton pips it for me, as per above.
Rich
-
Ally
How many archies have been successfully sued for health and safety malpractice?
My point was, even if a 110 acre site was availabe to build a stand alone course of 6000 yards, developers aren't interested, partly because of H&S and partly because of the risk involved. Yet, the same golfers who developers target for their BIG course will happily play an old 6000 yard course. Meaning, marketing for BIG is so jacked up these days that small doesn't get a look in.
atb
I completely agree about trees and H&S...I want to see where otehr golfers are and what they are doing. Unfortunately, the powers that be see trees as a safety barrier and on a small site, trees take up critical space necessary for playability.
Rihc
Hunstanton has slowly worked its charms on me. I don't think its in the class of Deal, but I think Hunstanton gives its near neighbour all it can handle for title of best course in Norfolk.
Ciao
-
I completely agree about trees and H&S...I want to see where otehr golfers are and what they are doing. Unfortunately, the powers that be see trees as a safety barrier and on a small site, trees take up critical space necessary for playability.
...and trees tend to be pretty greedy when it comes to grabbing water which I for one would rather see consumed by the grass.
atb
-
I agree completely with Brent's premise which I think should have read short and spread out is no better than long and tight... It's about flow and making the course feel in scale and consistent in size.... You can still build short courses in relatively small spaces without resorting to safety problems - in fact, that's the point...
I've edited my original comment to add in the missing "NOT". Good catch, thanks.
-
Rihc
Hunstanton has slowly worked its charms on me. I don't think its in the class of Deal, but I think Hunstanton gives its near neighbour all it can handle for title of best course in Norfolk.
We all know that you are hard to charm, Sean, but you will eventually see the light vis a vis Norfolk (and the rest of the UK, to be sure).
I wish you all the best in your quest for enlightenment.
Rich
-
Here's the scorecard for a course with an interesting mix of five Par 3s, three Par 5's and only 6,000 yards (Par 70) from the visitors tee. Also, note that two of the Par 5's come fairly early in the round and three of the Par 3's are in the final eight holes which makes for "unbalanced" nines, something I like.
(http://www.sandiwaygolf.co.uk/files/sandiwaygolf.co.uk/Course_Images/scorecard.jpg)
From the medal tees it is 6,400 and no doubt a real bruiser given the mostly tree-lined playing corridors and the up-and-down terrain.
For my game somewhere in the 6,000 yard range for firm-ish courses (and maybe a couple hundred yards less for those which tend to play soft) is a perfect distance for a round of golf. Having it as Par 70 would help me feel a little less puny than playing a Par 72 course that short (yes, I know that is vain and silly of me). The problem with some Par 70's is they are have too many similar length Par 4 holes (although a Par 4 longer than 375 yards is seldom a "two shotter" for me!).
-
Good topic Sean
George's list is very bizzare, but it is his, and it made me think about top 10 links I would most prefer to play again, rather than my insignificant view as to which were the "best" 10 links GCA-wise or otherwise. So, alphabetically....
Ballyliffin Old--not as good as when it was Ballyliffin Only, but what remains is still Eddie Hackett's masterpiece
Deal--the Elie of England
Dornoch--my "home" course since I first played it in 1978
Eden (St. Andrews)--most enjoyable course in St. Andrews, even with the Links Trust/Donald Steel butchery of what Colt built
Elie--in many ways the perfect links, and whilst posh, still very accessible
Kilspindie--the least "affected" of all the significant East Lothian clubs and courses and the greatest fun
Muirfield--so posh that it is the second least affected of the significant East Lothian links (and yes, it IS a links)
Mulranney--spent an hour walking it in 2008, still remains above Pine Valley on my "bucket list" of courses to play
Silloth--more remote than Dornoch but almost as enjoyable
Western Gailes--a nearly perfect blend of quality, simplicity and comfort
Rich
Great list, but as much as I loved Eddie Hacket, I think it's a stretch to attribute Ballyliffen Old to him. My understanding is that it is a home made course by a couple of members and the greenskeeper.
-
Good topic Sean
George's list is very bizzare, but it is his, and it made me think about top 10 links I would most prefer to play again, rather than my insignificant view as to which were the "best" 10 links GCA-wise or otherwise. So, alphabetically....
Ballyliffin Old--not as good as when it was Ballyliffin Only, but what remains is still Eddie Hackett's masterpiece
Deal--the Elie of England
Dornoch--my "home" course since I first played it in 1978
Eden (St. Andrews)--most enjoyable course in St. Andrews, even with the Links Trust/Donald Steel butchery of what Colt built
Elie--in many ways the perfect links, and whilst posh, still very accessible
Kilspindie--the least "affected" of all the significant East Lothian clubs and courses and the greatest fun
Muirfield--so posh that it is the second least affected of the significant East Lothian links (and yes, it IS a links)
Mulranney--spent an hour walking it in 2008, still remains above Pine Valley on my "bucket list" of courses to play
Silloth--more remote than Dornoch but almost as enjoyable
Western Gailes--a nearly perfect blend of quality, simplicity and comfort
Rich
Great list, but as much as I loved Eddie Hacket, I think it's a stretch to attribute Ballyliffen Old to him. My understanding is that it is a home made course by a couple of members and the greenskeeper.
I think otherwise, Richard, based on previous research, published work and family connections in Ballyliffin, but I might have been misinformed.
Rich
-
Good topic Sean
George's list is very bizzare, but it is his, and it made me think about top 10 links I would most prefer to play again, rather than my insignificant view as to which were the "best" 10 links GCA-wise or otherwise. So, alphabetically....
Ballyliffin Old--not as good as when it was Ballyliffin Only, but what remains is still Eddie Hackett's masterpiece
Deal--the Elie of England
Dornoch--my "home" course since I first played it in 1978
Eden (St. Andrews)--most enjoyable course in St. Andrews, even with the Links Trust/Donald Steel butchery of what Colt built
Elie--in many ways the perfect links, and whilst posh, still very accessible
Kilspindie--the least "affected" of all the significant East Lothian clubs and courses and the greatest fun
Muirfield--so posh that it is the second least affected of the significant East Lothian links (and yes, it IS a links)
Mulranney--spent an hour walking it in 2008, still remains above Pine Valley on my "bucket list" of courses to play
Silloth--more remote than Dornoch but almost as enjoyable
Western Gailes--a nearly perfect blend of quality, simplicity and comfort
Rich
Great list, but as much as I loved Eddie Hacket, I think it's a stretch to attribute Ballyliffen Old to him. My understanding is that it is a home made course by a couple of members and the greenskeeper.
I think otherwise, Richard, based on previous research, published work and family connections in Ballyliffin, but I might have been misinformed.
Rich
I spoke to Marin Niland while researching the 2nd edition of Links of Heaven. I believe Eddie may have visited, but this is what Martin told me:
The links that Faldo fell in love with was ‘built’ for just £5838. The club’s finely tuned budget called for an expenditure of £300 a hole, including £33 for each tee, £192 for each green, £50 for resodding and £12 for levelling. Whether or not anyone had an idea to smooth out the fairways, there was certainly no money to do so.
‘Some Scottish guys were brought in at one stage to have a look,’ says Martin Niland, a member of the club at the time. ‘But they were only a day and a half on site, and we were a bit dissatisfied with the time they spent and what they did. So we ended up doing it ourselves.’
The Scottish visitors were from Frank Pennick’s design firm. But when they departed it was left to Niland and fellow member Martin Hopkins to find a suitable routing on the massive property.
‘We didn’t have proper drawings,’ says Niland. ‘We just used stakes for the tees and the greens.’
What Niland and Hopkins did have was a good grounding in agricultural science, and among the first thing they did was set up a nursery for the natural fescue grasses they would later lay on the green sites by hand.
Over the years, finishing touches on what is now called the Old Links at Ballyliffen fell to the heroic greenskeeper Dennis Doherty. He did everything on his own with only one piece of automated equipment (a single mower to cut the greens), though in the summer he was sometimes helped by a lad or two from government job-creation schemes.
-
Thanks for the clarification Richard and your favourite 10?
-
Thanks for the clarification Richard and your favourite 10?
Well, here is a quick "downsized" top 10 following Sean's example...leaving out the championship stuff and stressing the fun. Old Port Salon might have made the list. Not in order .
Baltray
Cruden Bay
County Down
Nairn
Dornoch
Enniscrone
Sligo
Lahinch
Berwick
Montrose
-
Love my links golf and fortunate to have travelled to play a number.
1. Royal County Down
2. St Andrews Old
3. Lahinch
4. Royal Portrush
5. Barnbougle Dunes
6. Ballybunion
7. Royal Liverpool
8. Royal Troon
9. Paraparaumu Beach
10.Royal Cinque Ports
Some pretty good honourable mentions
Oreti Sands
Leo
I knew you would have Oreti in there somewhere ;)
Royal County Down
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
St. Andrews (Old)
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
Royal St. George's
North Berwick (West)
Barnbougle Dunes
Paraparaumu Beach
-
Thanks for the clarification Richard and your favourite 10?
Well, here is a quick "downsized" top 10 following Sean's example...leaving out the championship stuff and stressing the fun. Old Port Salon might have made the list. Not in order .
Baltray
Cruden Bay
County Down
Nairn
Dornoch
Enniscrone
Sligo
Lahinch
Berwick
Montrose
Richard
Talk to me about Montrose.
Ciao
-
Adam - Ps. Shouldn't it be 'fuggeddabout'? When in England....think of Hugh Grant :P
I need someone took hook me up with Royal Hague (and de Pan), both sound charming.
As I suspected, it didn't take long before seven of my favourites were mentioned.
Enniscrone
Portrush Valley
Lahinch
Cruden Bay
North Berwick West Links
Pennard
St Enodoc
Ciao
Hey Turkey! I already invited you, more than once! You don't need someone you have someone in DD.
-
Top 10 links is very very hard.
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion - Old
Lahinch
Deal
Cruden Bay
Pacific Dunes
Royal Portcawl
North Berwick
Noordwijkse :-)
With a huge list of followers that are not second tier but that I would rank above every single parkland course on the planet.
-
Adam - Ps. Shouldn't it be 'fuggeddabout'? When in England....think of Hugh Grant :P
I need someone took hook me up with Royal Hague (and de Pan), both sound charming.
As I suspected, it didn't take long before seven of my favourites were mentioned.
Enniscrone
Portrush Valley
Lahinch
Cruden Bay
North Berwick West Links
Pennard
St Enodoc
Ciao
Hey Turkey! I already invited you, more than once! You don't need someone you have someone in DD.
Very fine!
Turkey? My dad uses that word ;D
Brian
I thought you were already experienced?
Ciao