Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David_Tepper on July 18, 2014, 11:32:59 AM
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Some interesting (and surprising) choices:
http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/george-peper-s-top-10-favorite-links-courses
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Omissions:
Royal Dornoch
North Berwick
Ballybunion Old
Prestwick
Royal County Down
Royal Porthcawl
That is an impressive list of excluded courses. I haven't played some of the newer courses included on his list.
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Completely valid list and not really subject to debate; they're his favorites, not his assessment of some bogus concept like 'greatest' or 'best'.
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Is Kingsbarns even a true links?
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Is Kingsbarns even a true links?
According to his book True Links, it is.
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Completely valid list and not really subject to debate; they're his favorites
Precisely.
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Completely valid list and not really subject to debate; they're his favorites
Precisely.
He explains leaving out Dornoch in answer to the comments.
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Gotta put Dye Fore and Teeth of the Dog on that list too! ;D
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I've had the great good fortune to know George and play with him on The Old Course and Dornoch, I even partnered with him on many occasions and we've talked an awful lot about the game and links courses.
Perhaps if he does not respond directly, you all could help me understand how he can leave Dornoch off the list (even given his response as stated above) but leave Turnberry on the list.
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Bill Y. & others -
Here are George Peper's comments regarding Dornoch, as shown on the LINKS magazine page:
"Sorry guys, but Dornoch just misses my Top 10. I’ve played it a bunch, but I find a couple of the greens (notably #2) a bit wacky, am not crazy about having to climb up to semi-pastureland for a couple of holes, and also don’t like returning uphill to the clubhouse on 16, only to have to go back down and up again on 17/18. Still, in May when the gorse is in full bloom, it’s a special place."
DT
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I haven't been to GB&I and I just can't take this list seriously. Yes, it is subjective and they are his favorites, not best. Still, I find the list eyebrow raising. It's like he went out of his way to include modern courses for the sake of "balance".
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"I haven't been to GB&I and I just can't take this list seriously."
David Stamm -
Sorry, but you have got to be kidding.
Among other things, George Peper has lived in St. Andrews for 2 years, has been a member of the R&A for far longer than that, has co-authored True Links and has likely played more links golf and more links golf courses than 98% of the members of this website.
You have never played a round of golf in GB&I, yet you question the validity/sincerity of his opinions. Beautiful! :D
DT
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"I haven't been to GB&I and I just can't take this list seriously."
David Stamm -
Sorry, but you have got to be kidding.
Among other things, George Peper has lived in St. Andrews for 2 years, has been a member of the R&A for far longer than that, has co-authored True Links and has likely played more links golf and more links golf courses than 98% of the members of this website.
You have never played a round of golf in GB&I, yet you question the validity/sincerity of his opinions. Beautiful! :D
DT
David, I do not question his sincerity. As I said, they are his opinions and he's entitled to them. I know all about Mr. Peper's adventures in GB and enjoyed reading about his remodeling of his home on the 18 at TOC and his playing in the old grey toon. Nevertheless, because he's been there and played extensively, that does not guarantee that he "gets it". This forum knows all too well that just because, for example, one has punched out all the top 100 courses on a list does not mean he or she knows what they've seen that distinguishes one from another.
You, of all people, should question the omission of Royal Dornoch and yet put Turnberry and Kingbarns there in it's stead.
That my less than 2 cents. I haven't been there and reserve the right to be flat out wrong on this.
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Its a list, what the heck. For me, th surprising aspect isn't the Dornoch axe (wouldn't make my top 10 favourites - not even close), but that he didn't choose any wee links. He seems to lean more toward meaty links, which is fine. Peper did hit three I would currently include in my top 10 favourites: Pennard, Lahinch & Cruden Bay.
Ciao
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Favourite is such a subjective thing, so can't really argue (as much as I do enjoy a right good argument). What I'd like to read is more of his comments on why and how he picked these courses. Also he makes an interesting comment on English links which I would have thought might have raised a bit more comment. I'd like to see him expand on those comments but most of all I'd be intrigued to read what links courses he's actually seen/played.
Niall
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His comments regarding English links are hard to sort but here seem his criteria / criticisms:
1) the Rota courses all stink
2) great courses should not have too many blind shots, should not have uneven lies, and should have memorable holes
3) no English links make the juices flow, mainly because the sea rarely comes into view
4) they’re not in Scotland
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2) great courses should not have too many blind shots, should not have uneven lies, and should have memorable holes
Enough said.
While I disagree with Mr. Peper, his justifications are understandable, albeit pedestrian.
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"Nevertheless, because he's been there and played extensively, that does not guarantee that he "gets it"."
David Stamm -
Do you really think you are in a position to judge whether or not Geroge Peper "gets it?"
Regarding Dornoch, while I may disagree with his conclusion, his observations regarding the course are valid.
Adam Clayman -
Mark Bourgeois' interpretation of what George Peper has written may or may not be an accurate reflection of what he has said.
DT
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David,
Fair enough, let me try again using his words: "The links courses of England don’t do much for me..."
1) "...it [Hoylake] lacks memorable holes, and the same must be said for both Royal Birkdale and Royal Lytham. As for the other English venue, Royal St George’s, it has too many blind shots and uneven lies for my taste."
2) "...not one of them [the consensus must-see English links] makes my juices flow. I think one reason for this is that, despite the fact that—like all true links—these English courses are set beside the sea, the fact is, the sea rarely comes into view."
3) "I’ll admit it could have something to do with the fact that they’re [English links he's played] not in Scotland, and that’s where my heart will always be."
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Mark -
I wonder if Mr. Peper has ever played St. Endoc. I would love to hear what he might think of that one.;)
Clearly he is predisposed to favor links golf in Scotland over links golf in England. I suspect it is based as much on sentiment as on the golf courses themselves.
I don't think there is anything wrong with favoring a course with "memorable holes," however one might define them.
DT
P.S. Jack Nicklaus is not a fan of Royal St. Georges either. May he does not "get it" as well. ;)
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Birkdale no memorable holes????
1st has to be about the best starting hole on the rota followed by the 2nd being ditto. 12th outstanding par 3 and 17/18 finish is as well known as any bar TOC.
Jon
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P.S. Jack Nicklaus is not a fan of Royal St. Georges either. May he does not "get it" as well. ;)
I apparently offended you with my observation. My apologies.
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David Stamm -
No need to apologize. You did not offend me.
I realize chatboards such as these encourage a certain amount of speculation and conjecture. Sometimes I feel obliged to note when the envelope gets pushed a little too far.
DT
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David Stamm -
No need to apologize. You did not offend me.
I realize chatboards such as these encourage a certain amount of speculation and conjecture. Sometimes I feel obliged to note when the envelope gets pushed a little too far.
DT
Fair enough. Hopefully one day I can make it across the sea and see for myself.
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The pros seem to love Birkdale as the fairways are motorways through the valleys. Sandwich gets little favour as it goes over many of the slopes and pros hate uncertainty.
Jack May not love Sandwich but he certainly gets the course, he won his first event in the UK at RSG.
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David Tepper, As I said, his justifications are understandable. But by no means are those justifications close to what any sportsman should espouse. They are deeply rooted in what we'll call the American mindset. Apparently based in some notion of "fairness" which directly conflict with certain core principles, such as random rubs of the green, or some awkward stance, due to varying grades of terrain.
I'm not sure journalists should ever create a "my" list. Much too personal to be considered journalism. Perhaps Mr. Peper doesn't define himself as a true journalist?
From Shaq's site. I wonder if he's calling out the Links editor? "I call Hoylake a rotten course. There are no bunkers to get over; the fellow I was playing topped all his tee-shots and never got into trouble." Such is a verdict often heard after a first visit to Hoylake. The critic shoiuld then further be asked his opinion of St. Andrews, and it will generally be found that he classes St. Andrews and Hoylake together as the two worst courses he has ever seen. He may forthwith be treated with silent contempt, and his opinions may be ignored. He has effectually written himself down an ass. BERNARD DARWIN
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"But by no means are those justifications close to what any sportsman should espouse."
Adam C. -
Are you saying you have a better understanding of what a "sportsman should espouse" than Jack Nicklaus?
DT
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Noordwijkse is the biggest surprise to me. At first I thought he likes difficult courses, but then what about Castle Stuart and TOC?
Ulrich
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Noordwijkse is the biggest surprise to me. At first I thought he likes difficult courses, but then what about Castle Stuart and TOC?
Ulrich
Ulrich,
I would imagine it could be that he likes interesting and challenging courses some of which are tough and some of which are easy. Whilst I do not agree with his comments on the English links I do respect his list as his favourite ones.
Jon
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Yeah obviously, but aren't you looking for patterns in such a list? I think there's a pattern to my favorite courses, but how could you have Cruden Bay in your list, but not any other of the stalwarts of quirk such as North Berwick?
Of course, "favourite" can also mean that it's not just the course itself, but also some personal memories or even golfing achievements connected to it. In that case I wouldn't publish the list though, since no reader is bound to be able to relate to it.
Ulrich
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Ulrich,
I think your last paragraph is probably the most obvious reason though it could be he sees things he likes in varying qualities a course has to offer.
Jon
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Noordwijkse is the biggest surprise to me. At first I thought he likes difficult courses, but then what about Castle Stuart and TOC?
Ulrich
Ulrich,
I would imagine it could be that he likes interesting and challenging courses some of which are tough and some of which are easy. Whilst I do not agree with his comments on the English links I do respect his list as his favourite ones.
Jon
I think he just likes a nice view ::)
Interesting he was willing to admit his own contradiction in not picking Dornoch because of the hike up to 7 but picking Cruden Bay for the panoramic views from 10.
Niall
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There are no sea views at Noordwijkse and parts of it is even in a pine forest. And it is a very tough walk. So allow me to doubt your theory :)
BTW, not wanting to knock on Noordwijkse, it's a cracking course and I'd return any day. But to make the Top Ten of 246 links courses you'd expect perfection.
Ulrich
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P.S. Jack Nicklaus is not a fan of Royal St. Georges either. May he does not "get it" as well. ;)
Maybe if Jack Nicklaus "got it" he would have more original designs in the top 100 lists. It's not like he hasn't done a lot of designs.