Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Niall Hay on July 03, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
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Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course in Northern Michigan
Forest Dunes Golf Club, located in northern Michigan near Roscommon, which opened for play in 2002 with the debut of a Tom Wieskopf-designed 18-hole course, has started to develop a second course. Scheduled to open in 2016, it is believed to be the only new course under construction in Michigan.
http://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news/Annual-2014/Forest-Dunes-Begins-Work-on-Second-Golf-Course-in-Northern-Michigan/
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What is the date on this article? I thought the latest news was that this project was on hold, perhaps indefinitely.
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Tom's update, as of June 5th of 2014, about halfway down: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58679.0.html
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What is the date on this article? I thought the latest news was that this project was on hold, perhaps indefinitely.
Posted: 2014/07/03
Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course in Northern Michigan
Posted: 2014/07/03
http://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news/Annual-2014/Forest-Dunes-Begins-Work-on-Second-Golf-Course-in-Northern-Michigan/
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Well, I guess we'll have to find out what Mr. Doak has to say about that!
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I'll be at FD on Monday and will report back!
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Bump due to interest/excitement.
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I played in a pro-am yesterday at FD. Greens were running 12+ and we battled high winds. The course was in ideal condition as reported numerous times. A very fun back nine. Pin on short par 4 13th was back right which left a devilish chip if you were short or long. Very difficult golf course to get up and down if you miss to the "correct" side. Is it better to be more aggressive and shoot for the pins at FD? Is this typical for Weiskopf courses? Course is a little too manicured for my taste but we enjoyed it nevertheless. Enough dribble..
I walked around the proposed site for Mr. Doak's course and posted the below pic which is looking down the proposed 18th with the pin in the back left and the existing clubhouse in the back right. Large areas of land have been cleared and stumps are piled up all over the property. The area cleared is rolling with many swales / hollows and sideboards on both sides.
The club employees did not give much info when asked about the state of the new course. I expect we will hear a formal announcement on the direction of project very soon. I'm sorry for the limited amount of information but I had my hands full with the Forest (front) and Dunes (back) course.
(http://www.yorkphoto.com/Imaging/GetImage.ashx?id=393346997&key=c265eb97006b45708490c09362bc344b&size=l®ion=en-US&q=Medium&ts=0)
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8) I'll ask the folks at FD about it Thurs PM... and look for any activity, could be a week by week thing..
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Gents,
I golfed Eagle Eye today and was told by a staff member that if Doak does indeed get the contract he is going to do something that will be wild and crazy and bring the masses to Roscommon. Although I don't want to spoil Doaks big plans (as I kind of already did announcing Tom potentially getting the job) I can assure you that this unique design feature would get Most GCAers attention and I bet 75% would get on a plane and see this crazy idea. Sorry for the tease but please pray that Tom can pull this off. Other than that I'm pleading the 5th :)
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Reverse routing every T, Th and Sat?
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I plead the 5th ;D
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As a golf course
designer doodler, I now know my next project doodle.
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If this is a relatively flat site, as the site for the Olympics was, then perhaps he will bring his concept for that course to FD.
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The Michigan "resort" landscape is so crowded already. I wonder sometimes how all these places get enough business, especially those in the middle of nowhere like FD.
That said, I likely would have made the out of the way trip to Roscommon on my last Michigan boondoggle if there were 2 top 100 level courses to play instead of just one.
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Gents,
I golfed Eagle Eye today and was told by a staff member that if Doak does indeed get the contract he is going to do something that will be wild and crazy and bring the masses to Roscommon. Although I don't want to spoil Doaks big plans (as I kind of already did announcing Tom potentially getting the job) I can assure you that this unique design feature would get Most GCAers attention and I bet 75% would get on a plane and see this crazy idea. Sorry for the tease but please pray that Tom can pull this off. Other than that I'm pleading the 5th :)
The cat is out of the bag: http://www.globalgolfpost.com/blog/a-reversible-layout-that-could-turn-golf-inside-out/
Small excerpt: "Global Golf Post has obtained an advance copy of a plan that will be released to the world Tuesday.
Doak and his Renaissance Golf Design team are going to design a course in rural Roscommon, Mich., that will be reversible.
That’s right – forward one day and backward the next. That’s two distinct layouts using the same greens but playing clockwise one way and counter clockwise the other way."
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As someone who spent my summers in this area, this is very exciting.
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Pretty dadgum cool. Congrats to all involved with this one.
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The press release from Forest Dunes:
http://forestdunesgolf.com/forestdunes-news/forest-dunes-awards/news/194-tom-doak-comes-home-to-design-a-golf-course-for-the-ages (http://forestdunesgolf.com/forestdunes-news/forest-dunes-awards/news/194-tom-doak-comes-home-to-design-a-golf-course-for-the-ages)
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That’s right – forward one day and backward the next. That’s two distinct layouts using the same greens but playing clockwise one way and counter clockwise the other way."
For a preview of this concept, go play Silvies Valley Ranch when it comes online next year. ;)
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Awesome to see someone give TD the chance to do this. So intriguing it will go to the top of the list of courses I want to see.
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Well isn't this just case in point for why it's good to be a big name.
Dan Hixson is amidst constructing a similar type of course here in Oregon. "two courses in one" "Reversible"
But I haven't heard diddly squat about how he's going to "turn golf on its' ear!"
REVOLUTIONIZE the game!!!
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Doak's course has the potential to be a game changer. Great for the game and great for Michigan!
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Doak's course has the potential to be a game changer. Great for the game and great for Michigan!
Should be interesting! Do we know opening date yet? Completion date?
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Tom
I saw your response on the other thread about Silvies Valley Ranch, and in particular your comment that Simpson dabbled in design of this sort back in the day.
I always thought Mackenzie's lost course, El Boqueran, had reversible qualities.
Can you think of any other examples of this???
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I played a Hale Irwin design near Driggs, ID (Teton Reserve, or was it Teton Reverse?) that was a reversible routing, so the concept is far from new. However, I expect TD and crew to make it work in a way that it likely hasn't in previous attempts.(In a positive way).
I'd love to hear the conversations as they progress.
Joe
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Tom
I saw your response on the other thread about Silvies Valley Ranch, and in particular your comment that Simpson dabbled in design of this sort back in the day.
I always thought Mackenzie's lost course, El Boqueran, had reversible qualities.
Can you think of any other examples of this???
Michael:
I do not mention it in the p.r. for this course, because Mr. Keiser is still uncomfortable with its status, but we have already played with this concept at The Sheep Ranch, where holes can be played backwards and forwards and sideways, too.
I remember hearing about the Hale Irwin project in the planning phase, but I didn't know if it ever opened, or succeeded. I believe there was a reversible nine-hole course on the site of what is now DeBordieu, in Myrtle Beach, though I never saw it.
I did play The Old Course in reverse a few years back, when we took George Bahto over to Scotland before we started Old Macdonald. It doesn't work so well now, because they've stopped mowing the approaches into some greens as played in reverse; and it was clearly not nearly as interesting of a course playing down the left side. That will be the real challenge of this design, to get it where not everyone has thinks that clockwise is better than anti-clockwise [or vice versa :) ].
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With all due respect to the others I really think TD is the one guy who can/will make this work to it maximum potential both ways. Look forward to playing the finished product.
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I agree, Tom seems like the one guy out there who could do it both ways. Creativity is a must and he has it in spades.
Any idea what the names of the routings will be?
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Any idea what the names of the routings will be?
Forrest and Dunes?
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Any idea what the names of the routings will be?
Forrest and Dunes?
I thought colors were all the rage ???
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With all due respect to the others I really think TD is the one guy who can/will make this work to it maximum potential both ways. Look forward to playing the finished product.
Greg:
I have heard this from a few people the last week; thank you for the vote of confidence. I hope you are not all putting the hex on me!
I walked the site again last week for the first time with the trees (mostly) down. A lot of work has yet to happen, but I am confident that we can work it out. There are a lot of cool small-scale features and it will be terrific to have those be the focus of the course for a change.
The hardest part will be to get it so the "reverse" course is as cool as the "forward" routing. I'm going to have to start concentrating most of my efforts on the reverse course and design more of the greens and bunkers from that perspective, since most of the routing was done the other way round.
JC: No, we haven't agreed on names yet. "Clockwise" and "Counter-Clockwise" is a bit cumbersome. In fact, I was thinking yesterday that it might be better if we DIDN'T name them separately so that it will be harder for people to declare a favorite.
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I think that "The Challenge at Forest Dunes " and "The Experience at Forest Dunes" has a nice ring to it. #1990s
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I agree with Tom that naming them might be a bit much. I guess it will depend on how differently they play.
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Here you go Tom, nice and SIMPLE:
THIS WAY and THAT WAY ;D
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Here you go Tom, nice and SIMPLE:
THIS WAY and THAT WAY ;D
Thissaway
&
Thattaway
Not bad at all.
Maybe
Roscommon
&
Nommocsor
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How about Front and Back? You could say that you played the front 9 on the front and the back nine on the back. Delightfully confusing for a nicely unique concept.
Forward and Reverse if you don't like the word play.
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How about Front and Back? You could say that you played the front 9 on the front and the back nine on the back. Delightfully confusing for a nicely unique concept.
Forward and Reverse if you don't like the word play.
I don't like Forward and Reverse because it implies that one is the "standard" or preferred way, which we are trying to avoid.
I liked the idea of just having the greens numbered 1 to 18 where some days you started counting down instead of up, except again, that would imply that 1-18 was the "real" routing. It would emphasize that you are playing to the same greens ... but the weird thing is when you're playing to 17 green backwards, you are coming up a different fairway! [17 is a par 3 when playing 1-18, but a long 4 or a par 5 when playing 18-1.]
It could be Odd and Even, because one will be in play on the odd days of the month, the other on the even days.
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Palindrome 1 and Palindrome 2
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If that is their plan, odd and even is perfect. Simple and unique.
Good luck Tom. I am excited to see it.
Kudos to you for "re-introducing" this idea and for Forest Dunes for the guts to do it. Golf needs concepts like this one.
Might we see a Biarritz green. Seems like a natural for this idea.
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If that is their plan, odd and even is perfect. Simple and unique.
Good luck Tom. I am excited to see it.
Kudos to you for "re-introducing" this idea and for Forest Dunes for the guts to do it. Golf needs concepts like this one.
Might we see a Biarritz green. Seems like a natural for this idea.
Oh no! How on earth is anyone going to be able to properly rate this???
Can't wait to see how Dr. Klein arrives at his walk in the park score for even and odd.
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All B.S. aside, this has immediately hit the top of my list for must sees upon opening.
Something that while re-introduced, is going to be widely considered conceptual and innovative.
Best of luck with the project Tom.
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Good Luck with the project Tom, very excited for this one. You should name the two routings after The Hobbit ;D
There...
...and Back Again
Or Keep it Simple. In and Out
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Really neat concept. Being in MI, an addition at Forest Dunes will make that trip even better now that there will be a couple options for play. Not to mention, multiday trips getting to potentially play Tom's course both directions.
From a maintenance perspective, seems like giving opposing teeboxes and greens every other day off from heavy traffic will be a great way to keep the course playing in great condition. Obviously the approaches into the greens will be different each way as well. Looking forward to following the progress and thanks for sharing with the board, Tom.
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1. So does that mean odd will be in play 2 days in a row at the end of May, July, August and October?
2. For the inevitable 'favorite 18' thread are we comparing 17 vs. 17 or 2 vs. 17? 8)
3. How about rotating barrels of custom brewed draft beer from Shorts in the clubhouse named and styled after the 2 courses?
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How about Leaders and Legends? Seemed to work out well for the B1G ;D
In all seriousness, I think this is a fantastic idea for a destination course and surprised it hasn't been done successfully before. Now it will be necessary to stay 3 days instead of 1 or 2.
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Yesterday, my 3-year-old Lily and I checked a book out of the library called "Octopus Opposites"...perhaps the name lies somewhere within? :)
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I am unexplainably excited for this.
And I can't help but think it will only raise the GCA knowledge of all who play on it, as they try to decide which course they liked better and why.
Being forced to consider why you like a hole one way versus the other, with all things equal but the ground, will be illuminating for even the most casual of golfers.
Rock on, Tom.
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So some greens will be front to back sloping in one direction and back to front in the other. Some could have a spine from 9 to 3 and play back to front in either direction. Or imagine playing a Redan from the other direction. This could really be a lot of fun!
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1. So does that mean odd will be in play 2 days in a row at the end of May, July, August and October?
2. For the inevitable 'favorite 18' thread are we comparing 17 vs. 17 or 2 vs. 17? 8)
3. How about rotating barrels of custom brewed draft beer from Shorts in the clubhouse named and styled after the 2 courses?
You forgot the obligatory composite course discussion. Should be fun.
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Easy, keep it as traditional as possible Tom...IN AND OUT..what could be better than that?
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Wax on
Wax off
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PICANTICO HILLS !!! William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s. It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.
I was fortunate enough to play the Picantico course about 15 years ago when it was still being maintained. It wound around a crescent shaped hill that surrounded the main house and the “Playhouse” that served as clubhouse in addition to having a gym, squash court etc etc. My host stated that it was “Flynn’s best design”.
After completing the front nine which basically wound around the hill, the tenth tee was to the right of the ninth green and you played back down the 9th fairway and continued. As I recall the 18th hole was a separate par three that went back to the Playhouse. We played the back nine with the “Hicks” – my host’s hickory shafted clubs. I birdied the 18th – sinking a putt with a Calamity Jane style putter.
The fairways were somewhat wide and without many bunkers, and the greens were interesting – they flowed out from the side of the hill. The views of the Hudson River and the Valley looking up the bend in the river were staggering.
It takes a truly private club with essentially no or few other players to get in 18 holes with this routing scheme.
I had heard that it was not being maintained, but a quick look on Google maps and it appears that the greens, tees and bunkers are mostly still intact.
I believe there is a discussion of the course in the 2009 Wayne Morrison interview on GCA. The section on Picantico Hills in NATURE FAKER is really fascinating.
Wm Flynnfan
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At risk of sounding like a fool, can somebody please explain how a reversible golf course works? In the interim I'll read back through the thread and see what I missed. It sounds incredible in theory, I just want to know more about the practical impact of it and what the biggest challenges are.
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Easy, keep it as traditional as possible Tom...IN AND OUT..what could be better than that?
We can only assume that the comfort stations would carry the requisite burgers and fries.
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Something I'm surprised that hasn't been touched on more (than the once or twice thus far) is green's construction/orientation/playability. Forget two-way fairways and multi-use tees, that's the simple part. Getting the green to play correctly from both directions will be key to this working. I suspect we'll see one strategic element to green's design that we don't see very often; that is, that the preferred miss will be over the green in many cases.
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Nice post/point, Ben. I hadn't thought of that - and as you suggest, the green sites may be the determinative/a big factor.
I was thinking that this is a unique opportunity/context for TD to create a "freedom golf" experience, and on first blush it seems to me that this is a greater challenge on a reversible course than on a traditional one. Again, just off the top of my head, it strikes me that big, bold (and seemingly random) features and hazards that could engender a sense of freedom on a traditional course might not work the same way on a reversible one. And with that I've run out of any ideas about how it could be made to work...
Peter
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To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?
What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"? If
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To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?
What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"? If
1, 1A 1B and 2. Variety without added cost
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Something I'm surprised that hasn't been touched on more (than the once or twice thus far) is green's construction/orientation/playability. Forget two-way fairways and multi-use tees, that's the simple part. Getting the green to play correctly from both directions will be key to this working. I suspect we'll see one strategic element to green's design that we don't see very often; that is, that the preferred miss will be over the green in many cases.
Unless you go over the back of a crowned green with bunker guarding the front of the opposite approach. Then you have a bunker shot where you have to clear the crown but stop it before it runs off the front of the green. That sir, is d-e-d dead.
I'm with whoever it was that mentioned a Biarritz. Anyone want to wager that there WON'T be a Biarritz?
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To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?
What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"? If
Read Tom Simpson's piece on it
The Reversible Course
To play a course backwards was an alternative that commended itself for many sound reasons almost as soon as golf courses
came into being. Within living memory the Old Course at St. Andrews was habitually played in reverse, and for all we know it may
still be so played. At North Berwick, and probably on most, if not all, of the older courses, the custom prevailed, in order, as it was said, to " rest the course."
In other words, this procedure helped to preoerve the fairways over a given area from being unduly cut up with divot marks-a point
on which opinion was then particularly stringent; it also gave the grass time to recover in the places where divots had been cut. Some
method of the kind was absolutely necessary when courses were so much shorter than they are now and required the playing of a greater number of strokes within a much more limited area. In fact, iron play was rather frowned upon and discouraged as being unduly destructive of good turf. The modern practice of tearing the fairways to pieces, as well as the tees at the shorter holes, would have been regarded-and rightly so-with horror.
It will be remembered, too, that " the green," by which was meant the entire extent of the links, had very largely to look after itself. It was never so patched up or so carefully tended as it is to-day to help its wounds to heal. The course was reversed and played backwards at stated intervals to enable it to gain a little rest between whiles and recover the trueness of its surface. In addition to this, the immediate neighbourhood of the putting greens was found to be greatly benefited by a variation in the line of the approach.
It will be worth while to note some of the indirect effects of so contriving a course as to enable it to be played the other way round. We can still see the principle embedded in the Old Course at St. Andrews the one course which is the best example of the evolutionary priociples peculiar to golf. No doubt the history of the changes that have taken place there is well known to the majority of the students of the antiquities ofthe game; how the play extended at first over only six holes; how these six were subsequently doubled by using them on a homeward journey of which we have evidence in a fine series of double greens; and how, finally, the twelve holes were made up to eighteen by the addition of a " loop " at the further extremity much in the same way that a new wing is added to a mansion which has outgrown its capacity.
The impressive width of the large putting greens still remains as one of the most distinctive features of a historic course, although the course itself was once far narrower. " Hell Bunker "was originally the threatening hazard of " the Hole Across going out," showing us how almost absurdly to our eyes the play over the links was compressed. This compression is still often vividly brought to our notice at the most noteworthy holes, although more elbow-room in course of time has been providentially allowed. Still, according to Mr. Joshua Crane's somewhat remarkable system of reckoning the merits of individual courses, St. Andrews suffers the indignity of many bad arks set against her credit on account of the tightness of her" margins." These margins, however, have withstood the test of time and mark the limits within which the interior holes were played in either direction alternately. As regards the opening and finishing holes at St. Andrews nothing could be finer or more appropriate than the simplicity which adds dignity to design in providing a promenade for the townspeople over turf free from the disfigurement of unsightly artificial hazards. The Swilcan Burn and the Valley of Sin are quite adequate in themselves to justify these holes in the absence of any other distinctive golfing features. But once the play is opened after crossing the Burn we become involved in a network of holes over an exceptional golfing terrain, an undulating maze of attractive folds in the ground, amongst which the inexperienced would be quickly lost but for the guidance of expert conductors. The confusion is bound to be bewildering until familiarity breeds admiration. The mind at this crucial point of the round is kept constantly on the alert, so much so that whichever the way one might be playing, whether backwards or forwards, the interest stimulated by the complexity of the problem is equally keen.
We are inclined to believe that these holes owe much of their fascination to the fact that there were, and are still, reversible; that in this old and discarded principle of reversibility lies one of the great possibilities in the way of development so far as modern golf architecture is concerned. Ruch a scheme might conceivably be found to be the best antidote to an existing tendency towards the undue repetition of stock devices which are always liable to creep in and create a monotony of design. Anything that would be likely to conduce to greater freedom and elasticity is a development to be heartily welcomed by everyone. Surely there are many advantages to be gained in making two courses out of one, in doubling over the same ground the character of the strokes, in rever~ing on the technical side the penalties of pulled or sliced shots, and in adding on occasions an entire novelty to the approach shots?
To find an opportunity of putting the idea to a practical test by attempting the experiment on a course of the ordinary pattern is not
always altogether easy; yet it must have suggested itself before now hundreds of times to many of our enterprising players. Some exceptional occasion is needed when the course is empty-during, for instance, the very early hours of the morning, or possibly during a deluge of rain when only fanatical enthusiasts would venture out on the links. One such experiment is within our recollection, when four Oxford undergraduates chose the latter of these alternatives during- a hurricane of wind and rain, probably because they referred a soaking at a reasonable hour to the less agreeable novelty of having to rise at daybreak. The experiment was certainly as entertaining to the spectator as to the players, since a number of fine shots during the round were needed to bring off approaches to distant greens from rough country at strange angles. The course in question was by no means so well adapted to a reversal as many we know of; it was bisected and bordered by roads which had to be crossed more frequently by the other way about than by the right way round. The culminating point of the match was reached in playing to the green of the last hole (owing to a slight error by one of the players) of a highly dangerous shot down the whole length of a street on which, fortunately, there was no traffic at the time, over a crossroad at the further end, at the same time narrowly shaving the clubhouse which by the more direct route would have had to be carried. Luckily everything went well, and nothing happened to mar the success of the venture.
The conditions, at any rate on this course, were not of the best for playing in reverse fashion; and on a certain number of courses it is
obvious that such a scheme would be entirely out of the question. It will be as well therefore to enquire very briefly what are the ideal conditions and advantages to be gained by such a reversal, and also to enumerate the points of application which are involved. A glance at the accompanying skeleton plan of three holes designed on this principle will give an idea of the way in which a full round could under favourable conditions be made possible. In this plan it will be observed that only the more ambitious routes are indicated. In order to avoid confusion we have confined ourselves to marking the spoor of the Tiger, leaving the tracks of the Rabbit across his own fairway to the imagination of the reader to fill in as he pleases. A closer examination, however, will show that every consideration is given to the weaker player whichever way the course is played. At the two longer holes he cannot reasonably expect to reach the green in the same number of strokes as his more powerful rival, but he has every opportunity of equalising on handicap terms. There is plenty of room for him if he chooses to take his chances.
The advantages claimed for a reversible course may be summarised as follows:
1. As to the practical value of such a scheme one gain would be, as we have seen, that the greenkeeper finds a " resting " interval for
the course (of, say, a month at a time) which would be of the greatest benefit over certain parts of the fairway in repairing divot holes. It would also give the grass during this period an excellent chance of recovery without interfering with the play.
2. In the neighbourhood of the greens, also, it can easily be realised how devastating can be the effect of continuous traffic to the entrance of a green. The ground through any kind of " bottle-neck " tends to become consolidated beyond the point that is desirable for the healthy growth of the delicate grasses. Concentrated traffic of the kind closes the pores of the ground and hinders the steady development of good turf, at the same time adding considerably to the task of the green" keeper in keeping the course in good order. If the ground periodically obtains a rest, the difficulty is appreciably less. Over the fairways there is not the same danger. Here the walking is much more widely distributed, and the delicacy of the surface through the green is not of the same importance.
3. It is not suggested that every kind of ground is suitable for a reversible course. What might be called the heroic courses are practically out of the question so far as reversibility is concerned except at enormous and unjustifiable expense. Prestwick, St. George's Sandwich and Gleneagles, to take three examples, would obviously be impossible to reverse whatever sums of money might be spent on them. It should be clearly understood that we are considering the matter purely on the supposition that the course must be equally good whichever way it is played.
4. The ideal site for a reversible course would be ground already under grass, such as park land. Here possibly the best golfing featun:s
might be rather conspicuous by their absence, but this, although a matter of importance, would not be a vital consideration when we weigh the advantages and disadvantages connected with courses on grass land already under cultivation. That is not to say, however, that the principle is in any way inapplicable to courses where the ground is rich in natural golfing features, such as are to be found on the best of the Surrey heaths. The only point we wish to emphasise is that marked or bold inequalities of surface are not prima facie suitable for the purpose we are discussing. Obtrusive plateau greens, for example, if they are raised above a certain point, would at once involve serious difficulties, since in one direction it would be a question of playing up to a higher level and in the other of running
down to a lower.
5. As regards the effect of wind on a course, there is nothing more irritating than having to play a long series of holes either with or against it. Far the better plan is for the direction of the holes to be well broken up during a round-as it were, by a process of tacking. When a course is so constructed that it is generally affected throughout by a prevalent wind from a certain quarter, which really does prevail, an alternative way of playing the course will be found to be a considerable relief-at any rate during certain periods of the year.
6. The most obvious advantage of all is the increased pleasure and variety in having two courses instead of one. To the practical mind,
also, the idea should make a strong appeal because you practically get two courses for the same money, or (to put it in another way) you belong to two golf clubs for the payment of one subscription. Supposing that the course is really representative, at least 76 golfing shots of character will be available instead of the normal 38 (allowing for the customary two putts on each green); and as regards the additional pleasure gained by a change of direction it is only necessary to think of the experience of motoring along a country road and returning the same way. Two entirely different aspects of scenery arc provided. When, therefore, this
factor is combined on a golf course with an entirely separate range of shots, the gain must be acknowledged to be very considerable. A player would never grow tired of the course under these far more varied conditions. Another point is that there need not necessarily be the same lengths in regard to each of the individual holes; so that here again there would be an agreeable variation.
7. The questions of design that are involved are of the very first importance. The problem would naturally be considerably easier if
the course were laid out with this particular end of reversibility in view; and, above all, the scheme lends itself to the " strategic " type of design. Little, if any, additional bunkering on a strategic course would be needed for the reverse play. In fact, additional bunkers, except where absolutely necessary, would be both undesirable and superfluous. A dog-legged hole to the right would be converted automatically to a dog-legged hole to the left, and vice versa. As a matter of necessity also the tee shot at such holes would have to be placed in the reverse direction- to the extreme right or left as the case might be. This of itself would demand a greater test of skill and intelligence on the part of the player. On a" penal " course, the fairway of which is smothered in bunkers, the result of attempting a reverse course would not only be tedious and boring, but quite without point or interest. The design would of its own accord fall to pieces.
8. The Adaptation of the ordinary type of course to the reversible might prove rather an expensive matter, although often it would prove a feasible proposition. The principle is obviously more suited to a new course. When a new course is in contemplation there could be no objection to incorporating the idea in the skeleton plan provided that the ground lent itself to such a treatment. In such an event the additional cost would be comparatively little. The extra fairway area would not, even under the most adverse circumstances, have to be more than 25 per cent. of the whole. The greens, it is true, would have to be slightly larger (possibly an increase of 20 per cent.) than we should generally favour, but no larger than those that are usually constructed. Also, no
extra tees would be required-certainly not more than are generally in use on an ordinary course.
One reservation should be noted in this connection-that if the ground were badly shaped a certain increase of superficial area might be necessary. But, assuming that the ground were of ordinarily good formation, the normal one hundred and twenty-five acres would suffice. The chief difficulty with which the architect is faced in making full use of the really suitable golfing ground on any given roperty is not so much the getting of the player to the place where a green is eminently suitable as the getting him away from it without excessively long walks between the green and the next tee. For this reason an awkward piece of ground might make the designing of a reversible course extremely difficult, if not quite impossible.
9· Our view is that a course constructed on the principles we have been advocating should, if possible, be played in the same order of
holes in either direction-that is to say, play would be from the clubhouse to Green 17,and in strictly reverse order until Green 1 is reached, when the play would be from Tee No. 2 to the 18th green. But there is no real necessity to make a hide-bound rule on the point. In the centre of the course a divergence might be made if' it were felt advisable, although it would probably present a few additional difficulties. The chief reason for our preference for a similar order of play is that it is generally the sides of the greens which are guarded by bunkers. In principle the angle of the approach should be the same whichever way the course is played-that is, along the length of the green. Here, again, everything would depend on the lie of the ground and its peculiar formation.
10. As a last suggestion, supposing that it is admitted that the possibilities available on an eighteen-hole course belonging to a club
are enhanced, do not the same possibilities apply with still greater force to the private course which often embraces only nine? There are none of the difficulties to be encountered in endeavouring to reconcile the conflicting views of individual m,embers, nor is there the same likelihood of so many players being on the course at one and the same time that people will get in the way when the reverse nine holes are played to complete for all practical purposes a full eighteen of which every hole is different. Neither is the additional cost of construction or the additional area of ground required likely to cause any great hesitation if the advantages to be gained are carefully weighed.
We have said that possibly the ideal ground for a reversible course is the kind which corresponds to park land or ground already under
grass; and these are precisely the conditions which usually dictate the laying out of private courses. A little ingenuity on the lines we have put forward might help wonderfully to relieve the monotony of many of the minor links, without, so far as one can see, any corresponding disadvantages. But, whether short or long, there seems to be no very convincing reason, provided the conditions are favourable, why a method approved in the past should not be revived with even greater advantage in the present.
(http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/GCA%20pics/Simpson/Simpson%20reversible%20course%20small.jpg)
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PICANTICO HILLS !!! William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s. It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.
Bill,
Is this it?
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=us&cid=698959469598718721&q=Kykuit,+the+Rockefeller+Estate&sa=X&ei=j3DhU7ndF8_poAT444LgAQ&ved=0CIoBEPwSMAo
Looks like the bunkers are totally intact and perhaps the whole course?
Cheers
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PICANTICO HILLS !!! William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s. It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.
Bill,
Is this it?
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=us&cid=698959469598718721&q=Kykuit,+the+Rockefeller+Estate&sa=X&ei=j3DhU7ndF8_poAT444LgAQ&ved=0CIoBEPwSMAo
Looks like the bunkers are totally intact and perhaps the whole course?
Cheers
That looks awesome! Love the lack of definition.
This concept overall is really cool to me. Whenever I had a course to myself at the end of the day I would usually try a few holes backward. I guess this was normally during my caddie days at Franklin Hills, which isn't a great course for the concept but still fun in its own way.
I think the greens will be cooler than are being credited for right now. Having level or fallaway greens is a fun challenge in not being able to fire darts into the green, and there would have to be plenty of short turf I would think, which will be great for the short game.
Any plans on the grassing schema yet?
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I'm with whoever it was that mentioned a Biarritz. Anyone want to wager that there WON'T be a Biarritz?
Sure. How much do you want to wager?
:)
The idea doesn't appeal to me that much, because it would be more or less the same from both directions. Which is not to say there won't be any greens with a swale through them ... we might do that.
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The one thing that got me intrigued by a reverse course was the time I spent in the grandstand at the 14th green at the old Course during the 2005 Open. Looking down the fairway, in a hillock roughly opposite Hell and to my left, was a little bunker. It was pretty obvious that this bunker would only be in okay if one was playing the hole in reverse from the 15th tee. How cool was that? ;D
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To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?
What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"? If
The value is that it will likely lead to more people staying at the resort for an extra day in order to play the reverse routing. Quite ingenious actually. Build a course that functions as two courses, for less money, less use of land and less cost to maintain, AND get people to stay longer to play it. Great business model!
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The idea doesn't appeal to me that much, because it would be more or less the same from both directions.
As apposed to it being always the same playing in just one direction!!! Don't follow the logic Tom but interested to know why more or less is worse than always (genuine question no dig intended).
Jon
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Reversible is different. People often confuse different for good. Time will tell.
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I look forward to this course, especially after having played Dismal Red. Frankly I was able to play all around the Dismal Red course from the back of different greens in so many directions and that was quite hilly land. You could see a new hole in every direction and the possibilities were endless there. And that course was designed for one direction. Had daylight and other groups not been a factor, pretty sure I could have spent all day on holes 9-18 and never gotten tired of the endless possibilities. Look forward to seeing the routing and how it all comes together.
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Would there be more variety between the two courses if the second "course" was more of a cross country affair playing in all directions across the "original" routing instead of just a reverse of the "original"? In that scenario I would envision a lot of expansive shared fairway areas to make it possible. Would this be significantly harder to design than a reversed course?
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I definitely see the value in terms of getting people to want to stay at the resort multiple days to play the different routings as well as making cost efficient use of their land and resources. I love the concept and am very curious to see how it plays out. I can see this working very well at a private club with a membership who knows both layouts very well and don't really "need" tee markers such as a Ballyneal.
Very excited to return to FD though!
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Would there be more variety between the two courses if the second "course" was more of a cross country affair playing in all directions across the "original" routing instead of just a reverse of the "original"? In that scenario I would envision a lot of expansive shared fairway areas to make it possible. Would this be significantly harder to design than a reversed course?
That would be cool, but it sure wouldn't work with cart paths!
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The idea doesn't appeal to me that much, because it would be more or less the same from both directions.
As apposed to it being always the same playing in just one direction!!! Don't follow the logic Tom but interested to know why more or less is worse than always (genuine question no dig intended).
Jon
I don't like Biarritz holes very much to begin with, honestly, which is why I was going to take the bet that we wouldn't build one.
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Would there be more variety between the two courses if the second "course" was more of a cross country affair playing in all directions across the "original" routing instead of just a reverse of the "original"? In that scenario I would envision a lot of expansive shared fairway areas to make it possible. Would this be significantly harder to design than a reversed course?
That would be cool, but it sure wouldn't work with cart paths!
Cart paths in N Michigan, why?
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The idea doesn't appeal to me that much, because it would be more or less the same from both directions.
As apposed to it being always the same playing in just one direction!!! Don't follow the logic Tom but interested to know why more or less is worse than always (genuine question no dig intended).
Jon
I don't like Biarritz holes very much to begin with, honestly, which is why I was going to take the bet that we wouldn't build one.
Tom,
I didn't really think about the Biarritz angle more that your comment was meant general.
Jon
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Would there be more variety between the two courses if the second "course" was more of a cross country affair playing in all directions across the "original" routing instead of just a reverse of the "original"? In that scenario I would envision a lot of expansive shared fairway areas to make it possible. Would this be significantly harder to design than a reversed course?
That would be cool, but it sure wouldn't work with cart paths!
Can we expect a few more miles of scored cart paths? Not very minimalist.
(http://www.golfblogger.com/golfphotos/Forest_Dunes_05.JPG)
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Actually the cart paths might be one of the most challenging things to design aesthetically....
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To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?
What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"? If
The value is that it will likely lead to more people staying at the resort for an extra day in order to play the reverse routing. Quite ingenious actually. Build a course that functions as two courses, for less money, less use of land and less cost to maintain, AND get people to stay longer to play it. Great business model!
If your resort is crowded, you can increase play by starting players on 1 and 18 the the same time ;)
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There's at least one in every crowd...
Whitten throws some cold water on the reversible design concept:
"At Forest Dunes, the reason seems to be solely to attract attention. Which means the biggest obstacle Doak and his client will face with their new project is public acceptance of the concept. What sounds great in theory, what looks great on paper, doesn’t always sell well at the box office. ... Personally, I find Doak’s project exciting. But I hope one potentially great design doesn’t get sacrificed in the effort to create two novel ones."
http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/08/tom-doak-is-designing-a-revers.html (http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/08/tom-doak-is-designing-a-revers.html)
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Unless he has actual inside knowledge of the owner's motives, I'm not sure why he'd print this. He's excited about the concept but it's all a PR stunt?!
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To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?
What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"? If
The value is that it will likely lead to more people staying at the resort for an extra day in order to play the reverse routing. Quite ingenious actually. Build a course that functions as two courses, for less money, less use of land and less cost to maintain, AND get people to stay longer to play it. Great business model!
If your resort is crowded, you can increase play by starting players on 1 and 18 the the same time ;)
LOL, have you been to Painswick? The incoming players have the right of way on those shared fairways! It's unique....
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8) don;t outgoing players have right of way at TOC?
Did I miss it, but doesn't 18 reversible holes give FD 54 holes instead of 36?
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Unless he has actual inside knowledge of the owner's motives, I'm not sure why he'd print this. He's excited about the concept but it's all a PR stunt?!
I think Whitten is on to something. We always talk about finding great holes and Doak himself had always said that the best courses get the most out of the property. There is no way that both of those can be accomplished and have the course be a reversible one. Am I interested to see it? Absolutely, it's a course by one of the greatest living designers. Do I think sacrifices must have been made to achieve reversibility? Absolutely. Therefore this could be more sizzle than steak. Only seeing the course will tell. Like I said though, Doak is one who could pull this off.
Either way, I wonder if the 18th returns close to the 1st or rather, the 1st to the 18th :D
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Really excited to see the finished routing. I assume not all greens will be approached from opposite directions. Some might be approached from 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock. I think this would be a perfect opportunity to use a biarritz green. The trench would run perpendicular on one routing and parallel to the line of play in the other routing.
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A few more articles....
Golf Digest
"A reversible golf course? Tom Doak's plan for Forest Dunes is a course you can play two ways"
http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/08/goose-bump-city-how-tom-doak-w.html (http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/08/goose-bump-city-how-tom-doak-w.html)
Golf.com
"Doak to design reversible course at Michigan’s Forest Dunes"
http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/doak-design-reversible-course-michigan’s-forest-dunes (http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/doak-design-reversible-course-michigan’s-forest-dunes)
Golf Course Architecture
"Tom Doak and Brian Slawnik to design reversible course in northern Michigan"
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Tom-Doak-and-Brian-Slawnik-to-design-reversible-course-in-northern-Michigan/3192/Default.aspx#.U-L4j9q9KSM (http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Tom-Doak-and-Brian-Slawnik-to-design-reversible-course-in-northern-Michigan/3192/Default.aspx#.U-L4j9q9KSM)
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Unless he has actual inside knowledge of the owner's motives, I'm not sure why he'd print this. He's excited about the concept but it's all a PR stunt?!
I think Whitten is on to something. We always talk about finding great holes and Doak himself had always said that the best courses get the most out of the property. There is no way that both of those can be accomplished and have the course be a reversible one. Am I interested to see it? Absolutely, it's a course by one of the greatest living designers. Do I think sacrifices must have been made to achieve reversibility? Absolutely. Therefore this could be more sizzle than steak. Only seeing the course will tell. Like I said though, Doak is one who could pull this off.
Either way, I wonder if the 18th returns close to the 1st or rather, the 1st to the 18th :D
JC,
If you had a perfectly flat site why would this be the case? Maybe that means by definition that we're not talking about world beaters, but conceptually I think it's all about the property, in reverse. ;)
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I just think the question will always be out there as to whether the course could have been better if it sacrifices didn't have to be made to make it reversible. That was Whitten's point and I think that's valid.
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Would there be more variety between the two courses if the second "course" was more of a cross country affair playing in all directions across the "original" routing instead of just a reverse of the "original"? In that scenario I would envision a lot of expansive shared fairway areas to make it possible. Would this be significantly harder to design than a reversed course?
That would be cool, but it sure wouldn't work with cart paths!
Cart paths in N Michigan, why?
A non cart path course would be optimal for sure, perhaps the owners will see the advantage to not having any.
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PICANTICO HILLS !!! William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s. It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.
Bill,
Is this it?
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=us&cid=698959469598718721&q=Kykuit,+the+Rockefeller+Estate&sa=X&ei=j3DhU7ndF8_poAT444LgAQ&ved=0CIoBEPwSMAo
Looks like the bunkers are totally intact and perhaps the whole course?
Cheers
It should be directly EAST of that point - there is a label "New Croton Aqueduct" near it. I will try to call a friend who may be aware of the current status of the course.
Wm Flynnfan
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PICANTICO HILLS !!! William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s. It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.
Bill,
Is this it?
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=us&cid=698959469598718721&q=Kykuit,+the+Rockefeller+Estate&sa=X&ei=j3DhU7ndF8_poAT444LgAQ&ved=0CIoBEPwSMAo
Looks like the bunkers are totally intact and perhaps the whole course?
Cheers
It should be directly EAST of that point - there is a label "New Croton Aqueduct" near it. I will try to call a friend who may be aware of the current status of the course.
Wm Flynnfan
If you scroll directly east a tiny bit, you should see the label that says "New Croton Aqueduct". Looks well kept and very neat layout from what I can see.
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PICANTICO HILLS !!! William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s. It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.
I was fortunate enough to play the Picantico course about 15 years ago when it was still being maintained. It wound around a crescent shaped hill that surrounded the main house and the “Playhouse” that served as clubhouse in addition to having a gym, squash court etc etc. My host stated that it was “Flynn’s best design”.
After completing the front nine which basically wound around the hill, the tenth tee was to the right of the ninth green and you played back down the 9th fairway and continued. As I recall the 18th hole was a separate par three that went back to the Playhouse. We played the back nine with the “Hicks” – my host’s hickory shafted clubs. I birdied the 18th – sinking a putt with a Calamity Jane style putter.
The fairways were somewhat wide and without many bunkers, and the greens were interesting – they flowed out from the side of the hill. The views of the Hudson River and the Valley looking up the bend in the river were staggering.
It takes a truly private club with essentially no or few other players to get in 18 holes with this routing scheme.
I had heard that it was not being maintained, but a quick look on Google maps and it appears that the greens, tees and bunkers are mostly still intact.
I believe there is a discussion of the course in the 2009 Wayne Morrison interview on GCA. The section on Picantico Hills in NATURE FAKER is really fascinating.
Wm Flynnfan
I cannot find this course on Google maps?????? Can you post an aerial view?
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I cannot find this course on Google maps?????? Can you post an aerial view?
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w122/markfedeli/reverse.jpg)
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8) don;t outgoing players have right of way at TOC?
Well yes, but those are double fairways. At Painswick you are sharing a single fairway! If nobody had the right of way it would give a whole new meaning to "The Duel Hole." ;D
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Golfweek article on Tom's design:
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/aug/17/reversible-golf-course-tom-doak-michigan-forest-du/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2014/aug/17/reversible-golf-course-tom-doak-michigan-forest-du/)
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I've been fascinated by all this discussion on reversible courses in the last couple of weeks. Apologies for joining the discussion after the excitement's died down, but other things kept me busy.
I played a Hale Irwin design near Driggs, ID (Teton Reserve, or was it Teton Reverse?) that was a reversible routing, so the concept is far from new. However, I expect TD and crew to make it work in a way that it likely hasn't in previous attempts.(In a positive way).
I checked out this course via Google Earth a while back--only because I had a look at the site while it was still in the permitting stage--and had no inkling that it was reversible. Today, I checked again and it's still hard to see. What's more interesting is that when I checked out both Dismal Red and Wolf Point the same way, I found parts of each course that looked as if they were designed to be reversible. (Comments on these threads do confirm that's not the case.)
Looking at the overhead of Teton Reserve does help justify the case against cart paths. Though, of course, even the Old Course has a cart path, so it can be done!
Read Tom Simpson's piece on it
Thanks, Frank. This is the most lucid and one of the most captivating pieces I've read in a long time. I'm going to be sure to read Simpson's book soon.
I did play The Old Course in reverse a few years back, when we took George Bahto over to Scotland before we started Old Macdonald. It doesn't work so well now, because they've stopped mowing the approaches into some greens as played in reverse; and it was clearly not nearly as interesting of a course playing down the left side. That will be the real challenge of this design, to get it where not everyone has thinks that clockwise is better than anti-clockwise [or vice versa :) ].
It took quite a while before people began to prefer the modern routing of the Old Course to the clockwise one, right? It must be the case that, in addition to the playability problems created by mowing patterns in recent years, there have been subtler changes to TOC over the years that strengthen the counter-clockwise outing relative to the clockwise. For instance, whenever bunkers have been modified, the decisions about how exactly to build them must have reflected more about strategic play on the modern routing. To whatever extent greens and other contours were modified in the 20th century (I'm not knowledgeable about the entire history of changes to the course), these decisions must have also been made in the same way. And of course, we should remember that the tee boxes used today were not always there.
JB
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It took quite a while before people began to prefer the modern routing of the Old Course to the clockwise one, right? It must be the case that, in addition to the playability problems created by mowing patterns in recent years, there have been subtler changes to TOC over the years that strengthen the counter-clockwise outing relative to the clockwise. For instance, whenever bunkers have been modified, the decisions about how exactly to build them must have reflected more about strategic play on the modern routing. To whatever extent greens and other contours were modified in the 20th century (I'm not knowledgeable about the entire history of changes to the course), these decisions must have also been made in the same way. And of course, we should remember that the tee boxes used today were not always there.
JB
Actually, I think we all read the history of The Old Course a bit wrong in this regard.
For hundreds of years, The Old Course was really an 11-hole and then a 9-hole reversible course ... you played out to the greens, and then played back along the same narrow path to the same greens.
It was only after golf became popular and the course had to be widened in the 1800's, that the present "right-handed" course [or the left-handed one] was perceived. But I think it wasn't long after that, that the right-handed course came to be considered the "main" course, and the left-handed course was used mostly in winter to rest the landing areas of the main route.
So, while the left-handed course was not used as much as some imagine, in fact The Old Course was played forwards and backwards from day one. And, if you think about it, most of the famous holes were played backwards ... on the way back in.
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The September 2014 issue of The Met Golfer Traveler features a little blurb about Doak's reversible course at Forest Dunes: http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/374725/10 (http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/374725/10)
Mr. Doak also graces the cover the the e-pub.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/MGAemails/sept14-mettraveler_818x534.jpg)
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It's interesting to see how many "articles" have been generated by our press release. I haven't actually done any interviews about the project yet, other than answering questions on GCA, so everything you've seen is a re-write of the press release.
We are 30 days out from starting work on the first few holes; I'll have my whole team over there in ten days to walk through it. Once I've got some holes done for people to analyze, I'll try to do a better, real-world job of explaining how the design works ... not sure whether that'll be this winter or next spring.
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8) So who gets to drive the little dozer first?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/FORESTDUNESTRACTORINWAITING_zps60f52984.jpeg)
are you going to open burn the piles of trees and shrubs?
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Steve,
Like!
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Tom - If I may ask, I'm wondering how far along you guys got at Forest Dunes this past year.........and when do you anticipate the course being ready for it's first few rounds?
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The snow came a little early, but we've got seven holes [12-3-4-16-17-18] roughed in, green wells done and approved, and the irrigation main line has been installed so that we can start installing sprinkler heads as soon as the snow melts. More details in January for my Golf Channel interview ... or for anyone on my Christmas card list.
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Matt Ginella provides an update on the course(s)...
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/forest-dunes-reversible-golf-course-roscommon-michigan-15230.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/forest-dunes-reversible-golf-course-roscommon-michigan-15230.htm)
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8) Tom Doak,
Just fishing...
1. Can you advise status on new course?
2. Can a guy with a healing shoulder that can't swing a golf club and with an interest in gca walk any of the course and not get kicked off or discovered? Would such person need to have their own Jeep or cart?
Just wondering
8)
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1. Can you advise status on new course?
2. Can a guy with a healing shoulder that can't swing a golf club and with an interest in gca walk any of the course and not get kicked off or discovered? Would such person need to have their own Jeep or cart?
Steve:
We have almost the entire golf course shaped now, and seven holes seeded so far [1-2-3-4-16-17-18]. I gave a good tour last weekend to a few friends.
Please don't go out for a walk on your own on newly seeded holes, and for damn sure don't drive out there. I'll be back out again sometime the first week in August, if you are around Michigan then.
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8) TD,
CHECK!
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It is definitely worth the trek to see it. It was hard for me to really understand how it was going to work from the course map. Now having seen it (thank you Tom), I finally get how awesome it is in its subtle complexity. I am convinced that it is going to be endless fun and challenge to play, and I can't wait for the opening.
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Ron Whitten tweeting about Doak’s new reversible course at Forest Dunes…
https://twitter.com/RonWhittenGD (https://twitter.com/RonWhittenGD)
"Yesterday I walked Tom Doak's reversible 18 under construction at Forest Dunes GC in Mich. with Doak. It's a brilliant design..."
"We walked it in both directions, never once had the feeling we were walking backwards down a golf hole. Tom Doak really thought this one out"
"Doak's reversible 18 has no double-wide fairways or double greens. Greens are normal size, but shaped to be played from different angles"
"Key to make reversible 18 at Forest Dunes work, says Doak, is routing it so most holes aren't playing 180 degrees into same green."
"Doak's reversible 18 is about 1/3rd grassed now. Some holes will be playable next summer, full 18 probably not until spring 2017"
"I'm already wondering how Golf Digest panelists should evaluate a reversible 18. Has to be as two separate courses, right?"
"Doak joked to me, "Come on, Ron, this one has to be a 10 in your Design Variety, doesn't it?" It is definitely unique; I say brilliant."
"There is a small movement toward reversible courses. Dan Hixson doing one in Ore., Bob Cupp proposing a 9-hole one for Bobby Jones GC in GA"
Question: "what if one direction is significantly weaker? One direction becomes top 100, other direction is a flop."
Whitten: "That was certainly a Doak concern. He says his solution was to make sure that each routing had some of the best holes."
Question: "Is there any consensus on which way is better?"
Whitten: "Far too early to be passing judgment on either routing. To be honest, the draw is that it's 36 holes in space of 18"
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Can't wait to get up and play this once it's done. I love it when more gems are added to the already great Northern Michigan golf scene. The turnaround at Forest Dunes is pretty incredible. They were in a bad, bad place financially not all that long ago. The Weiskopf layout is fantastic and I'm sure the double Doak will be as well.
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The turnaround at Forest Dunes is pretty incredible. They were in a bad, bad place financially not all that long ago.
The problem they had -- and that most other Michigan courses have -- is that people were just stopping through on their way to another course. Without a place to stay adjacent, nobody hung around to eat or drink there, they moved on to their next stop.
Building some lodging was the key to turning around the business, and they are starting to build more now. And the whole point of this two-in-one course is to get people to stay at Forest Dunes for multiple days instead of sampling neighboring courses.
The course is actually over 50% seeded [a third of them look like grass] and the rest will be finished by the first days of September. I don't know if it will ever make the GOLF DIGEST rankings if they insist on considering it two courses, instead of one; and I don't know that I care. But it certainly fits our test of being the kind of course you want to go right back out and play again, whichever direction you can.
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Also, say what you will about GOLF DIGEST -- and I've said lots over the years -- but they are the only golf magazine sending anyone out to see what we [or almost anybody else*] are building, instead of just sending panelists on their own dime.
* anybody except Tiger Woods, of course. Most of the magazines were given paid vacations to pal around with Tiger in Mexico.
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Also, say what you will about GOLF DIGEST -- and I've said lots over the years -- but they are the only golf magazine sending anyone out to see what we [or almost anybody else*] are building, instead of just sending panelists on their own dime.
* anybody except Tiger Woods, of course. Most of the magazines were given paid vacations to pal around with Tiger in Mexico.
Wow, I never would have expected that. Kudos to Ron and them!
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Tom,
I am really looking forward to seeing your course(s) at Forest Dunes to observe how you dealt with the uphill vs downhill decisions. I've always felt you have a penchant for uphill holes or shots, so it will be fascinating for me to see if one course plays predominately uphill while the other plays predominantly downhill. ;)
This is a very exciting project, IMHO.
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Tom,
I am really looking forward to seeing your course(s) at Forest Dunes to observe how you dealt with the uphill vs downhill decisions. I've always felt you have a penchant for uphill holes or shots, so it will be fascinating for me to see if one course plays predominately uphill while the other plays predominantly downhill. ;)
This is a very exciting project, IMHO.
I don't know if the part of the property occupied by the Loop has more elevation change than the original course, but there was very little uphill-downhill there.
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I am really looking forward to seeing your course(s) at Forest Dunes to observe how you dealt with the uphill vs downhill decisions. I've always felt you have a penchant for uphill holes or shots, so it will be fascinating for me to see if one course plays predominately uphill while the other plays predominantly downhill. ;)
There is only about 25 feet of elevation change from the highest point on the course to the lowest, so it's not very hilly at all ... I always figured the ideal site for a reversible course would have to be pretty flat.
That said, one of Ron Whitten's observations was just how many greens sit up slightly in profile, so that you can't see anything immediately behind them. That is sort of a natural by-product of the reversibility, as you don't want many mounds behind a green that would be in front of it playing in the opposite direction.
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I know, Bill. I was going to make the comment that my memory of the original course is that it doesn't have a great deal of elevation change. I've played the original several times, but always with a cart... so, I don't have a good feel for the true ups and downs.
I would think a reversible course would work best on property with not too severe of an elevation change.
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Tom -
Ron writes that "Tom Doak really thought this one out".
Now, I've read enough of your posts over the years (and enough about your golf courses) to believe that you always think things out; and indeed, I'm guessing that the more natural and rugged and free and been-there-forever the course looks and plays and feels, the more you worked through/thought out the process and finished product.
If I'm right about that, I'm curious: do you feel you thought this one out more and/or differently than your other courses? I mean, I know that in one sense the answer is "yes", as you've never had to make any course reversible. But more generally, did you experience this process as markedly different/more unique than the processes at Barnbougle or Pacific or Ballyneal or Rock Creek or Sebonac etc?
Thanks
Peter
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May I ask: where does The Loop sit spatially in relation to the existing course? I tried to overlay the layout that Golf Channel used onto the Google Map aerial, but I couldn't tell for certain. Does it sit due east so that the clubhouse and range sit in between the two (three?) courses?
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May I ask: where does The Loop sit spatially in relation to the existing course? I tried to overlay the layout that Golf Channel used onto the Google Map aerial, but I couldn't tell for certain. Does it sit due east so that the clubhouse and range sit in between the two (three?) courses?
The new course starts across the parking lot from the clubhouse, and generally makes a big curve out around the boundary of the property down toward the front gate, and then back again. It does not border the range.
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Tom -
Ron writes that "Tom Doak really thought this one out".
Now, I've read enough of your posts over the years (and enough about your golf courses) to believe that you always think things out
:)
Well, pretty much all I do when I'm on site is think about the course, since there are better guys than me to run the equipment. And Ron knows that as well as anyone.
He might have meant that I've thought more about this design in advance than I usually do, because I've been thinking about the concept for twenty years, and what sorts of holes would work well in reverse ... though, strangely enough, there were a couple of ideas I wanted to use that I didn't find a place for, while a lot of the cooler features of the course [such as the greens that are approached from 90 degrees different angle, instead of 180 degrees] are things that I hadn't thought through until we got started. Or, he might have meant that every feature had to be thought of in two different directions, which is of course more complicated than just the one.
That aside, I don't really feel that the process has been markedly more difficult than other designs. In general, our goal was to keep other aspects of the design [grassing, bunkering, earthmoving, etc.] as simple as possible, so that we wouldn't trip ourselves up for the reverse routing. The hardest part was actually dealing with cart paths, which we haven't had to build for quite a long time, and which are very hard to hide from multiple vantage points ... the locations of cart paths had a lot of ramifications for where the tees are located.
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Tom -- thanks for the insight on this stuff. It's surprising that you guys didn't find this all that difficult compared to a "regular" course. Seems like it would have been like playing 3-D chess.
I laughed when I read your comment about cartpaths. I've played in northern michigan tons of times and everytime the people behind the counter practically laugh themselves hoarse when i tell them i'm walking. You will not be surprised to know that the best reaction I ever got was at Black Forest. The guy behind the counter looked like he'd never once had anyone ask to walk, and called over everyone else in earshot to tell them what a fool i was.
[/size][size=78%]anyway, Forest Dunes is great already. I'm glad you're adding to it. [/size]
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Tom, how do you think GD should rank the reversible course, if it doesn't rank each course separately?
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Tom, how do you think GD should rank the reversible course, if it doesn't rank each course separately?
Ultimately, isn't a ranking just another way of telling you how much you should want to go and visit a course? I think the main appeal of this course is going to be playing it in both directions to see if it works. Dividing it into two courses throws out the single feature that really makes it noteworthy.
I expected GOLF DIGEST to take this approach, because they have to use their formula for what makes a course great ... but they could really use it for the overall course if they wanted to. [When you play a course with six sets of tee markers, they don't rank it six ways.] As I joked to Ron, it's got to be a 10 for Design Variety, but I think you could also rate it for Shot Values, Memorability, etc. as a composite of the two directions, if you wanted to.
What I actually said to Ron about the rankings was that the GOLF DIGEST rankings have always been the main stumbling block to this concept. Most clients care a lot about the rankings, and with this concept I'd have to tell them that I think it will confound the rankings, because the system won't know how to treat it, and so the course probably won't fare as well as it should. When I asked Lew Thompson what he wanted, he didn't mention rankings at all -- probably because his other course is already in most of the lists. What he said was that he wanted something that would "wow" people, and that the whole point was to get people to stay at Forest Dunes and play multiple rounds of golf there. So I knew right away he was the right guy for this concept.
I would expect GOLFWEEK and GOLF Magazine to take the other approach, that they are evaluating one course that can just be played two ways. But who knows? And, for once, who cares?
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Interesting. It never occurred to me that there would be cartpaths on this course. But since ownership is looking to boost play as much as possible (and not necessarily make any Keiser-esque statements), it 's no surprise.
Tom, I know you're obviously no fan of cartpaths, but do you feel their inclusion hampered in any way what you would ideally be trying to accomplish with a reversible course? And will walking be strongly encouraged?
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May I ask: where does The Loop sit spatially in relation to the existing course? I tried to overlay the layout that Golf Channel used onto the Google Map aerial, but I couldn't tell for certain. Does it sit due east so that the clubhouse and range sit in between the two (three?) courses?
The new course starts across the parking lot from the clubhouse, and generally makes a big curve out around the boundary of the property down toward the front gate, and then back again. It does not border the range.
Thank you! I should just have asked you in the first place rather than playing around with two different maps and graphics app! JJS sr. and I look forward to seeing all the courses for the first time next May!
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Is the new course at Forest Dunes still scheduled to open in 2016; if so, would that be spring 2016 or sometime later in the year? Any thoughts on how the conditioning would be when it first opens? (I'm in the process of planning a group trip and am considering whether FD would make sense for us.)
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Is the new course at Forest Dunes still scheduled to open in 2016; if so, would that be spring 2016 or sometime later in the year? Any thoughts on how the conditioning would be when it first opens? (I'm in the process of planning a group trip and am considering whether FD would make sense for us.)
As of a few weeks ago: soft open planned for August 15, 2016.
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/623948591057477632 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/623948591057477632)
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Is the new course at Forest Dunes still scheduled to open in 2016; if so, would that be spring 2016 or sometime later in the year? Any thoughts on how the conditioning would be when it first opens? (I'm in the process of planning a group trip and am considering whether FD would make sense for us.)
Carl:
The last fairway was seeded ten days ago, so it's a bit early to start counting on an opening date.
What we've discussed is letting people play the ten holes closest to the clubhouse [1-5 and 14-18] starting sometime next summer ... a few groups in the morning going clockwise, and a few groups in the afternoon going counter-clockwise. Those are the holes that were planted first, so they should be getting playable by sometime in July. Also, playing the course both directions in the same day will necessarily limit the number of "preview" rounds. I have no idea when they will start taking reservations; I would hope it's not until we see how the grass comes through the winter.
The only problem with that plan is that a lot of my favorite holes are in the last few that were seeded!
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Hopefully it is open next fall, I would definitely head up from Cincinnati for a weekend stay to play both courses. Keep us posted Tom!
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Tom -
Ron Whitten has always said the course he rates #1 for Design Variety is Desert Mountain Renegade because of the two green concept. I would hope GD rates the Loop as one course. Personally, I can't wait to play it. But it should be rated as one course with loads of variety.
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Tom -
Ron Whitten has always said the course he rates #1 for Design Variety is Desert Mountain Renegade because of the two green concept. I would hope GD rates the Loop as one course. Personally, I can't wait to play it. But it should be rated as one course with loads of variety.
Good point Jim. It's not just GD, all three magazines will need to determine how to rate both courses.
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Construction complete on reversible Loop course at Forest Dunes
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Construction-complete-on-reversible-Loop-course-at-Forest-Dunes/3530/Default.aspx#.VjIZMNKrS71
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Here's a press release about the Loop project:
Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf Design's Innovative 18-hole Reversible Course Taking Shape At Forest Dunes
Traverse City, MI - Tom Doak has been thinking about building a fully reversible 18-hole design for more than twenty years. Once Forest Dunes Golf Club owner Lew Thompson committed to the concept last year, he had to start thinking about not just how to make it work, but how to make the two options equally interesting for golfers.
After all, he borrowed the concept from The Old Course at St. Andrews, and there's not much demand to play The Old Course backwards these days. Holes like the famous Road hole [the 17th] and the par-3 11th are so iconic that no one wants to miss them.
So did that mean he had to dumb down his design? "No," Doak smiles, "we just had to make sure that the best of the holes are distributed relatively equally between the two loops, so that one version of the course doesn't trump the other."
Now that the full 18 holes in Roscommon, named The Loop, are completed with the grass growing in, Doak said he's confident that the course works well both ways.
"I'm really pleased with it," he said. "I've taken a few people out in the last month or two to walk through it in both directions, or play a few holes. Whichever way you're playing, it never feels like you are going the wrong way."
In the end, the success of the design rests with the greens. "It's almost like they have to be approachable from 360 degrees around them, which limits how crazy you can make any contours," says Doak's lead associate for the project, Brian Slawnik. "But when you build a really interesting green, both of the holes playing into it become outstanding."
Two of the best holes, according to Doak, are the sixth and seventh playing in the counterclockwise direction. "The sixth is a very short par-3 with a wide and shallow green, and the seventh is a short par-4 with a long and narrow green that has a dip in the middle of it. But those are also two of the best holes playing clockwise. That seventh green lays out across the line of play from right to left, with the dip separating the two hole locations, and a big pine at the back right corner of the green really guards the right half. Then you play a short par-4 down to the sixth green, approaching on the long axis. So you get one wide green and one skinny one whichever way you're playing, but in either case, the short par-4 is one of the better holes out there."
Doak said the reversible format also gave him the opportunity to experiment with designs of famous or favorite holes he incorporated in some of his courses.
"I will occasionally build a hole to pay homage to something I've seen somewhere else," he said. "For instance over the 35 courses I've built, I think I've built a version of the Redan hole from North Berwick Golf Links four or five times. This course has a green somewhat like that too, the 4th hole in the counterclockwise routing."
"Clockwise, that green comes at the end of the longest par-4 on the course. Most of it slopes toward you on the second shot, but it also tilts pretty strongly from left to right. If you bail out to the left on your approach, it will be a very tricky little shot to keep it on the green from over there because of the tilt."
"There are probably two or three greens when you are playing them in one direction you will think, 'Oh yeah, I've seen some version of this green somewhere before,' but part of the reason I used those greens is because I realized they would be interesting if you played them from a different direction," he said.
Doak's view is shared by the one observer who counts the most in this instance, owner Lew Thompson of Huntsville, Ark., Thompson said he is impressed with how well the course turned out after playing holes on both routes.
"I was excited to see how good it is, playing both ways, and how different it is playing both ways," he said. "Everybody I've taken up there to play it had a perception in their minds so different than when they see it. They couldn't believe that the a green they played one way was the same green they played again coming in from the side because it has such a very different look."
He said higher handicap golfers will especially appreciate the wide fairways that will keep stray shots in play. Thompson said he expects some holes to be ready for play early in the summer with both directions open by August to limited preview play. The Loop will alternate the course routing on a daily basis allowing golfers to play each direction on back-to-back days.
"We got the best of Tom, and I don't say that to offend people who have used Tom in the past, but we got Tom at a time when he didn't have so many projects going, and with this one (near his home) he was able to devote much more of his time to this project and it is really showing," Thompson said.
Doak said designing greens at Forest Dunes was easier than locating tees since he had been mulling the reversible concept for so long he has a playbook in his head of ideas that would work and ones that would not.
"There are certain kinds of greens that we would not build at Forest Dunes because it would be harder to make them work from two directions at the same time," he said. "When you are shaping and thinking about two directions it does make it trickier but we already had ruled out the things that would get us in trouble."
On half of the holes players will approach the greens from straight in one way and then from 90 degrees or 120 degrees rather than straight in from the back of those greens.
Constructing tees took more thought, he said, because his routing has multiple changes in direction.
"You will be playing one hole, say west, and you will turn and play south for the next hole," he said. To make that seamless, some tees, are in fairways or just on the edge of fairways. It's still efficient, because the tees only need to be half as big for each direction -- the sizes are based on the amount of traffic they have to handle."
Doak said a big factor in how the course turned out was the contributions of his three top associates at Renaissance Golf Design, Brian Slawnik, Brian Schneider, and Eric Iverson, who normally are scattered around the globe working on multiple Doak projects.
"Brian Slawnik ran the job and was there most of the time and Brian Schneider and Eric Iverson took turns coming in to shape," Doak said. "There were only about three days when all four of us were on site but generally two of them were there whenever I was there. When we only have two projects going at a time that's how it works."
Doak said having that many eyes on this particular project was a big boost.
"It would have been harder to tackle this idea if I were doing it just by myself," he said. "Having different guys looking at it instead of just one of them you get some fresh ideas, and you don't make any mistakes. It took some of the pressure off me. I could think more about being creative than making sure we don't make a mistake."
For more information about Renaissance Golf Design, visit renaissancegolf.com (http://www.renaissancegolf.com/).
For more information about Forest Dunes, visit forestdunesgolf.com (http://www.forestdunesgolf.com/).
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That release, among other sources, came from : http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239
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That release, among other sources, came from : http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239 (http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239)
Actually, Ronald, it came from Dave Richards, who has been doing press releases for me [when we do them] for most of the last 20-odd years. It went to several hundred writers and golf news outlets, of which the golf wire is but one.
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That release, among other sources, came from : http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239 (http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239)
Actually, Ronald, it came from Dave Richards, who has been doing press releases for me [when we do them] for most of the last 20-odd years. It went to several hundred writers and golf news outlets, of which the golf wire is but one.
Tom, when I think about reversible greens I remember the hole on the reverse Old Course that played from the 13th tee to the 11th (Eden) green over Hill Bunker. Is there anything at Forest Dunes that crazy? In a good way of course! Into a brisk wind, up and over that frightening bunker to a falling away green, I thought it was the toughest hole on the reverse routing.
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From Morning Drive's "Architect Week," a good story about Doak, Forest Dunes and the new reversible course:
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/reversible-course-forest-dunes/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/reversible-course-forest-dunes/)
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I was up at Forest Dunes enjoying the original course. One evening Laura and I wandered across the way and took some photos.
Note that the course is not done yet, and I honestly don't have a reference for where on the layout these photos were taken.
That said, it's a fascinating property with really great ground movement, and it's very, very wide.
Here goes:
Laura in front of a giant bunker. It's very interesting because you can't see it from the other direction:
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1397_zpsk7bl7n1v.jpg)
Picture 2:
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1375_zpsopyusua9.jpg)
Picture 3:
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1395_zpstbjbisjd.jpg)
Picture 4:
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1408_zpsqoj7cftf.jpg)
Picture 5:
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1407_zpszhdwnslo.jpg)
Picture 6:
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1406_zpswam7fgdl.jpg)
Picture 7 (looking back to the clubhouse):
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1399_zpslfrltr8y.jpg)
Picture 8:
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p789/Dan_Herrmann/Loop1402_zpsc0fyb98n.jpg)
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Thanks very much for the photos, Dan.
Ah, but them Renaissance boys are a clever lot, aren't they?
The photos remind me a bit of their work at another 'inland links' ie the Renaissance Club, except here there is more undulation but an even lower 'profile' (as befitting the reversibility), and the sand is good old fashioned Michigan sand -- none of that fancy imported stuff!
Thanks again
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They are actually just screening some of the sand on site for bunker sand. It's a slow process, but a lot less expensive than trucking it in from 50 miles away [or 1000 miles!].
Dan:
Labels for your pictures:
1: approach to 1st green, Red [counter-clockwise] course. This is the biggest bunker on the course, short and right of the green.
2: 18th green looking back down the fairway [or, looking down the first fairway of the Blue]
3: 1st hole (Red) from top of hill, 200+ yards out on a 360-yard hole
4: 18th green looking back
5: bunker edge on 18th hole, Blue course [which is also the first on the Red)
6: bunkers in face of hill to right on 18th Blue [these would be just below where picture 3 is taken]
7: tee shot to #18 Blue course [back up the fairway of Red #1 ... the tee for Blue #18 is right on top of the big bunker in the first photo]
8: 2nd fairway Red course [I think]
So, these pictures are essentially all of the same one or two holes, looking in different directions. As you can see the turf still has a ways to go, but it's warm and rainy up here today, so the grass is finally growing.
I have been working on the yardage book for the course. If you want to see a sample, and want to help, I can send a .pdf of one of the holes so you can see how it works in different directions. Seeing just one or two holes will go a long way toward explaining the course!
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They are actually just screening some of the sand on site for bunker sand. It's a slow process, but a lot less expensive than trucking it in from 50 miles away [or 1000 miles!].
Dan:
Labels for your pictures:
1: approach to 1st green, Red [counter-clockwise] course. This is the biggest bunker on the course, short and right of the green.
2: 18th green looking back down the fairway [or, looking down the first fairway of the Blue]
3: 1st hole (Red) from top of hill, 200+ yards out on a 360-yard hole
4: 18th green looking back
5: bunker edge on 18th hole, Blue course [which is also the first on the Red)
6: bunkers in face of hill to right on 18th Blue [these would be just below where picture 3 is taken]
7: tee shot to #18 Blue course [back up the fairway of Red #1 ... the tee for Blue #18 is right on top of the big bunker in the first photo]
8: 2nd fairway Red course [I think]
So, these pictures are essentially all of the same one or two holes, looking in different directions. As you can see the turf still has a ways to go, but it's warm and rainy up here today, so the grass is finally growing.
I have been working on the yardage book for the course. If you want to see a sample, and want to help, I can send a .pdf of one of the holes so you can see how it works in different directions. Seeing just one or two holes will go a long way toward explaining the course!
Tom, having played the Reverse Old Course during our 2007 adventure, I would love to see your PDF of holes on The Loop. A look at Jeremy Glenn's "In My Opinion" piece on the Reverse Old Course is also very interesting.
During my visit to the 2005 Open at St Andrews I was sitting in the stands by the 14th green looking down the fairway, hoping someone would come to grief in Hell, and noticed a bunker that could only be seen looking at the fairway of the hole played in reverse in that fairway, from 15 tee to 13 green, and said to myself, "Aha! That's the reverse hole!"
My email is billmcb320@yahoo.com. Thanks.