(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/B_1GPm5WYAErWtg.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/brianewen/media/Golf/B_1GPm5WYAErWtg.jpg.html)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/B_1GPm5WYAErWtg.jpg) (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/brianewen/media/Golf/B_1GPm5WYAErWtg.jpg.html)
I don't know Turnberry. But I assume that's a whole new reshaped putting green / chipping area? Have they actually moved on to the golf course proper yet?
Any news on the complete redevelopment of The Kintyre course as well?
I don't know Turnberry. But I assume that's a whole new reshaped putting green / chipping area? Have they actually moved on to the golf course proper yet?
Any news on the complete redevelopment of The Kintyre course as well?
That is (or at least was) the pitch and putt course there. Have they pulled the plug on that? That would be very sad. The pitch and putt was a lot of fun (I got a hole in one in my one and only game on it).
I don't know Turnberry. But I assume that's a whole new reshaped putting green / chipping area? Have they actually moved on to the golf course proper yet?
Any news on the complete redevelopment of The Kintyre course as well?
That is (or at least was) the pitch and putt course there. Have they pulled the plug on that? That would be very sad. The pitch and putt was a lot of fun (I got a hole in one in my one and only game on it).
Which pitch and putt course? There is, or at least used to be, a 12 holer in the front lawn of the hotel and I'm pretty sure this isn't that unless my brain cells that recall it (other than having played it 3x to reach the only 72 day my dad and I ever played) were killed off my too many pints of Guinness that night.
I don't know Turnberry. But I assume that's a whole new reshaped putting green / chipping area? Have they actually moved on to the golf course proper yet?
Any news on the complete redevelopment of The Kintyre course as well?
That is (or at least was) the pitch and putt course there. Have they pulled the plug on that? That would be very sad. The pitch and putt was a lot of fun (I got a hole in one in my one and only game on it).
Which pitch and putt course? There is, or at least used to be, a 12 holer in the front lawn of the hotel and I'm pretty sure this isn't that unless my brain cells that recall it (other than having played it 3x to reach the only 72 day my dad and I ever played) were killed off my too many pints of Guinness that night.
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that looking down from in front of the hotel by the steps onto the course over the road, with that 12 holer right in front of you? No flags out there or tees, which is what makes me wonder if they have pulled it.
Under the impression its still going to be a Pitch & Putt, but a "much improved one"
I don't know Turnberry. But I assume that's a whole new reshaped putting green / chipping area? Have they actually moved on to the golf course proper yet?
Any news on the complete redevelopment of The Kintyre course as well?
That is (or at least was) the pitch and putt course there. Have they pulled the plug on that? That would be very sad. The pitch and putt was a lot of fun (I got a hole in one in my one and only game on it).
Which pitch and putt course? There is, or at least used to be, a 12 holer in the front lawn of the hotel and I'm pretty sure this isn't that unless my brain cells that recall it (other than having played it 3x to reach the only 72 day my dad and I ever played) were killed off my too many pints of Guinness that night.
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that looking down from in front of the hotel by the steps onto the course over the road, with that 12 holer right in front of you? No flags out there or tees, which is what makes me wonder if they have pulled it.
It is looking down from the hotel.
Heard the trees were to be removed and it seem so.
Appears from the photos that pitch and put was transformed into a uniform putting area.
Niall, he probably could get the 18th tee back on the beach. 40 years ago the 18th hole was straight, but was a bit too short. 6th might need a wee shift. I actually like the 2nd and 3rd at Turnberry. The 1st is a bit unloved but it's a nice easy get away. I think the plans to re-do 9 and 11 will make it significantly better though even as it is it's my number one on the mainland.
I find myself, if not necessarily always agreeing with Mr T, at least sympathising with the philosophy of change at Turnberry.
While it's a wonderful, glorious, history-filled place to play golf, there are undoubtedly a number of holes which are at best, ho hum.
The Hotel is incredible, if a little 'tired'. I'll bet he'll sort that out easily. The course is 80% there. Just my opinion of course.
I'm also really interested/excited to see what might be made of the Kintyre. There's an opportunity I would have loved!
Just no waterfalls, please...
F.
I don't think the design really compliments the property very well...Turnberry is almost good by default. I welcome tinkering...lets just hope Trump and Co learned a few things at Aberdeen...or this could be Aberdeen style design Vol II.
Ciao
Exactly my thoughts - Turnberry is very good, but there is plenty of room for improvement.
David
Re the pitch and putt - what makes you think it's not Hawtree's work ?
Martin Ebert has indeed been working at Turnberry pre Trump and has been retained to work on the main course but I've heard on good authority that Hawtree designed the P&P with Sol as contractor, as per Aberdeen.
Niall
Well, I have to say that this looks like a very positive addition.
1 - 0 to Mr.Trump
The latest addition at Turnberry.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBGuJ9dU0AAnxxJ.jpg)
Jeff,
to be fair, given the choice of a weeks golf at either of them I would go for Askernish too.
Detailing the changes, Donald J. Trump, Chairman and President of The Trump Organization, commented;
“In close consultation, we will be refining the great Ailsa Championship course including lengthening, re-grassing and making certain changes, many of which have been sought by the R and A for over 25 years.
A short(ish) video detailing the proposed changes to the course. I hope Andrew Cotter received a healthy cheque for his voice over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPRQjC5pY2g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPRQjC5pY2g)
Just watching the outstanding video posted by Michael Graham - love the changes but have a question about #9. When I have played Turnberry I was always under the impression that the ruins near the lighthouse were from a castle believed to be the birthplace of Robert the Bruce? I presume that was malarkey, or they wouldn't be removing those ruins to create the new Par-3 green? I'm also curious whether they could retain some of the wall and factor it into the design of the hole, a la The Pit hole at North Berwick...perhaps too penal on a long par 3 over water.
Adam
Interesting comment. It occurs to me that looking at the proposed changes, and also considering Balmedie International, that the Donald seems to like tees and greens at high points where possible.
Niall
Ben - various of the changes are necessary to make others possible. See the article I just posted on our site, which has an exclusive interview with Martin. Basically the desire to put the 18th tee on the dune wall drove much of the other stuff.
Adam
Interesting comment. It occurs to me that looking at the proposed changes, and also considering Balmedie International, that the Donald seems to like tees and greens at high points where possible.
Niall
Niall,
obviously Mr. Trump has not played much links golf in Scotland. The top tees at Balmedie are unplayable in anything above a stiff breeze.
I agree with Ben's comments about 9 being a good opportunity to make a better short 4 than 3.
Jon
I'm in a group starting to plan a 2016 trip with Turnberry on the itinerary. Other than the location it was never a course that really made me yearn to play it. I'm sure it was a fine course but just nothing I read about it or seeing it on television did it for me. Seeing the proposed changes has really increased my anticipation of playing it.
It will be interesting to see how the Oceanside holes play in a big wind. They look great in theory but if they do not play with enough effective width it could get very dicey.
I'm in a group starting to plan a 2016 trip with Turnberry on the itinerary. Other than the location it was never a course that really made me yearn to play it. I'm sure it was a fine course but just nothing I read about it or seeing it on television did it for me. Seeing the proposed changes has really increased my anticipation of playing it.
It will be interesting to see how the Oceanside holes play in a big wind. They look great in theory but if they do not play with enough effective width it could get very dicey.
Jim,
if the alterations are not starting till the second half of this year then I doubt very much it will be open for play in 2016.
Jon
June 2016 is the scheduled reopening date. They are going to turf a lot of the work areas using grass from the Arran course, which will speed things up.
As a good friend pointed out about Trump Aberdeen, the tees especially are all raised to make the views "spectacular". That is not the way links golf is supposed to be played! It is supposed to be down in the dunes not on top of them-when the wind howls there is no getting the teeball down into the fairway which is among the dunes!!!! I guess once again views and look "trumps" architectural value :)Adam
Interesting comment. It occurs to me that looking at the proposed changes, and also considering Balmedie International, that the Donald seems to like tees and greens at high points where possible.
Niall
Niall,
obviously Mr. Trump has not played much links golf in Scotland. The top tees at Balmedie are unplayable in anything above a stiff breeze.
I agree with Ben's comments about 9 being a good opportunity to make a better short 4 than 3.
Jon
As others have already said, I'm surprised by the extent of the proposed changes. Certainly seems a lot more drastic than the changes around the turn Mr Trump was talking about last summer.
I wonder what the R&A's reaction has been. I seem to recall Trump saying he would only embark on changes with their explicit support.
Michael
Adam,
Did you get any extra photos of some of the re-bunkering? Would be interested to see some if you did.
Ally
Adam
Thanks for the update. First time I've seen any photos of the finished work and it does look excellent. Re the 280 yard carry on the back tee at the 10th, is there a bail out area ? Likewise with the new par 3 9th ?
Niall
Even better news. Turnberry have just got there drinks licence for the drinks buggy.
Can't beat traditional Scottish golf !
Niall
I wonder what effect wind erosion will have on the newly opened up sandy 'waste' areas?
Atb
I wonder what effect wind erosion will have on the newly opened up sandy 'waste' areas?WOuld it not be ironic if having destroyed one nearly unique moving dunes system on the east coast he inadvertently created a new one on the west coast ::)
Atb
Re the sandy waste areas, at my club up the coast we did some quite extensive gorse removal over the winter to leave some lovely sandy waste areas. Already they are beginning to self seed with grass (no gorse as yet but I'm sure it will come). Adam recently did a piece or an editorial in Golf Architecture mag about not enough sandy waste areas in UK courses but the question I have is how do you stop them going back to grass or whatever
They had a media event the last couple of days (my colleague Toby was there, I was on holiday in France!) so there'll be quite a lot of Turnberry stuff coming out in the next few days
I suspect that most closely-held corporations tend to report breakeven results or losses. My only visit to Turnberry showed a nearly full tee sheet and plenty of money being spent. For the most part, Trump's foray into golf has been opportunistic. If he is losing money on operations at Turnberry, he is probably more than offsetting it with the appreciation of the property (not too different from sports franchises).
Prior to the Ireland Buda some three years ago, I contacted the Trump Doonbeg course and could not get a tee time. I asked if it would be possible to play if I stayed at the property and was told that hospitality was also sold out for most of the summer.
The exception to this was a visit to Trump International (Balmedie) where we found the course to be nearly deserted, a wide-open unattended pro shop, and only 10 or so folks in the restaurant. Like others, I thought that maybe Trump would move to sell it after he leaves office, then someone sent me the following:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/24/trump-sons-press-ahead-with-near-200-million-investment-for-scottish-.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/24/trump-sons-press-ahead-with-near-200-million-investment-for-scottish-.html)
Hate him or not, I would not bet against him getting the last laugh.
Agreed. If he/they really invested $200 Million, or something near it, that would create an extremely large annual depreciation/amortization expense, and would be difficult to overcome as far as accounting profit goes. However, whether it's cash flow positive is a completely different question--I'd surely think so.I suspect that most closely-held corporations tend to report breakeven results or losses. My only visit to Turnberry showed a nearly full tee sheet and plenty of money being spent. For the most part, Trump's foray into golf has been opportunistic. If he is losing money on operations at Turnberry, he is probably more than offsetting it with the appreciation of the property (not too different from sports franchises).
Prior to the Ireland Buda some three years ago, I contacted the Trump Doonbeg course and could not get a tee time. I asked if it would be possible to play if I stayed at the property and was told that hospitality was also sold out for most of the summer.
The exception to this was a visit to Trump International (Balmedie) where we found the course to be nearly deserted, a wide-open unattended pro shop, and only 10 or so folks in the restaurant. Like others, I thought that maybe Trump would move to sell it after he leaves office, then someone sent me the following:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/24/trump-sons-press-ahead-with-near-200-million-investment-for-scottish-.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/24/trump-sons-press-ahead-with-near-200-million-investment-for-scottish-.html)
Hate him or not, I would not bet against him getting the last laugh.
Trump paid c. $30-50m to the Asian owners that were hemmoraging badly. He cannot have paid as much as $5m to Mackenzie and Ebert to fix up the course. Maybe another $10-20m to fix up the hotel (which really needed it). So.......
.....the New Yorker article was very much fake news. Shame on them. William Shawn will be rolling in his grave........
The organization’s Russian “investors” probably needed some place to put their cash.There are more nefarious aspersions regarding the finances of Trump's involvement in Scottish golfhttps://www.newyorker.com/news/swamp-chronicles/where-did-donald-trump-get-200-million-dollars-to-buy-his-money-losing-scottish-golf-club (https://www.newyorker.com/news/swamp-chronicles/where-did-donald-trump-get-200-million-dollars-to-buy-his-money-losing-scottish-golf-club)
I enjoy those who believe that he will come out on top financially. It belies most of what we accept as a given on other threads about golf course economics. For those of us who have been on the inside of some of his "successful" bankruptcies, this view also flies in the face of real world experience with his financial acumen.