Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on June 26, 2014, 05:36:33 PM

Title: RENAISSANCE CLUB: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on June 26, 2014, 05:36:33 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51979092178_4120d406c9_o.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51979092178_4120d406c9_o.jpg)

Carved out of approximately 310 acres of forest and dunes between Muirfield and North Berwick on Scotland’s heralded Golf Coast, Renaissance opened for play in 2007. Five years later a land swap deal was struck with The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, usually referred to as Muirfield, which enabled the club to build three new holes (9-11) on the point overlooking Fidra Island. It may seem a minor detail, but the three new holes visually connect the course with the Firth of Forth in a way the original design failed to do.

The Sevardi brothers instructed Tom Doak to build a course which could host tour pros, consequently the total length is some 7300 yards and the layout isn’t quite as forgiving as one might expect. After pitching for several years, 2019 saw the first of three Scottish Opens held at Renaissance. The event is also scheduled to be hosted in 2022 as a joint US PGA Tour/European Tour venture. It is thought the joint effort may raise the profile of the tournament especially if the scheduling keeps the Scottish Open and Open played on consecutive weeks.

Renaissance was my first Doak and team effort.  I didn't know what to expect, but I wasn't expecting a heathland/links hybrid.  To be honest, I was most reminded of Formby which is a sincere compliment.  Regardless of comparisons, I think Renaissance is good even if considerably narrowed in the search to host the Scottish Open. Tom may have to edit his new Confidential Guide  :D  On the other hand, I have seen tighter courses so its not a disaster.  Other than the hassle of ball searching, the aspect about the constricted fairways which is most troubling is the knock on effect of the greens.  The greens are fairly severe, but when approached from areas meant to be fairway and are now rough the greens become more severe than intended.  There are times when it is difficult or maybe even impossible to earn the best position of approach.  If one is out of position it will take a very good short game to plug the leaking boat. 

The problem of decreased width is immediately apparent on the first, an attractive hole with a heathland feel.  There are two winsome sentinel trees guarding extreme lines of approach.  However, with the fairway constricted, one must avoid the left 25% of fairway or be forced to cope with the lumber.  To offer an idea, more or less, the brown rough in the picture used to be fairway.  As I say, regardless, the first is a fine opening hole, but I can't help think I am not getting the full treatment offered by Doak. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4804/32231703878_24c9eff57a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4804/32231703878_24c9eff57a_b.jpg)

The second too is a good, tough four, but even tighter than the first with a severe penalty for missing the short grass.  Sometimes, it is even possible to find an unseen bunker deep in the rough and thank goodness for your lucky fortune.  The par 5 third slips around a stand of trees and eventually funnels to one of my favourite greens on the course.  Someone said Doak doesn't do flat and that may be true, but this green is close enough to flat with a hint a savagery if one gets overly ambitous.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4821/31163700817_e1547d631f_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4821/31163700817_e1547d631f_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4914/46052926242_088274b7f7_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4914/46052926242_088274b7f7_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975620098_c14b8a9ea4_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975620098_c14b8a9ea4_b.jpg)

My favourite of the opening holes, the 4th used to look as if it was exported from Surrey. In the past year or so many trees have been removed and one victim is the tree that stood left of the green. The hole is definitely easier with more space. However, being able to hit a fade into the green cemented for me that its removal was right and proper. Before and after.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610894113_d20f670294_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610894113_d20f670294_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610679651_dfcb55f165_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610679651_dfcb55f165_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland (?) Beauty
Post by: George Freeman on June 26, 2014, 05:59:08 PM
What was the thought process behind the narrowing of the playing fields?
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland (?) Beauty
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on June 26, 2014, 06:11:50 PM
Sean you have the gift of the gab describing golf courses and your pictures are perfect.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland (?) Beauty
Post by: Paul Gray on June 26, 2014, 06:15:32 PM
Too lazy to look at a geo map, the turf is pure links, is it not?
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland (?) Beauty
Post by: Brett Hochstein on June 26, 2014, 06:20:32 PM
Paul,

The turf is awesome--among the best in Scotland I would say.  And as always I mean that in a fast playing fescue sort of way.  I've been enjoying the pictures and talk of the course.  Hope I can get back and see the new holes someday soon.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland (?) Beauty
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 26, 2014, 06:26:41 PM
Sean

Is the rough as penal as it looks? As in dont bother trying to find it?
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland (?) Beauty
Post by: Marty Bonnar on June 26, 2014, 07:31:28 PM
Ryan,
Some of the rough is beyond outrageous. I found I preferred being in the 'hidden' bunkers!
It's a great sadness that so many of the beautifully shaped and strategically positioned bunkers have been effectively neutered by such injudicious maintenance. I'd suggest not a decision made from playability concerns and more from the possibility of professional tournament play. As a great man of these parts oft spake, tis a pity...
F.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland (?) Beauty
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 26, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Thanks you, Sean - always top flight work.

You and others have mentioned the playability angle re the narrowing of fairways, and you're right to focus on that. But to the outside eye, I find myself wondering if those responsible for the maintenance have much artistic/aesthetic taste or sensibility -- since it is so clear to me, to anyone with a feel for scale and proportion and character, that the way the trees are set back and the overall sweeping/open vistas and the (otherwise) flattish, one-textured and links-like presentation -- to me reminiscent of Wolf Point -- are all wholly at odds with the pinched in, high rough and multi-coloured look the maintenance team have foisted upon it. As I say, I know 'aesthetics' aren't supposed to be the most important marker, but that way of looking at a course does I think become more relevant when one can sense even just from pictures that the scale, proportion and character of the design were meant to work together to create/enhance playability, such that a so-called aesthetic marring actually mars that playability as well. But again, I'm 5000 miles away and only looking at your excellent photos (you're getting better as a photographer it seems to me).

Peter

PS - please continue the tour, of course, I'd been looking forward to seeing the RC.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on June 26, 2014, 11:13:13 PM
Pietro

On some later holes the tree effect is even more obvious.  Some folks mention the trees, but for the most part they are spot on perfect.  They stand alone and are far prettier for it.  While the effect won't be quite as dramatic on many inland courses, Renaissance does offer the visual possibilities in allowing the beauty of trees to shine for having far less of them.  Back on the aesthetic issue, the constriction of the fairways must also bury loads of shaping work and natural rumples/elevation changes.  Its not the end of the world, but sure seems wasteful.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: jeffwarne on June 27, 2014, 05:50:02 AM
A truly fine place in a fantastic part of the golf world.
Great hospitality by all.
thanks to Tom and his team for organizing and The Renaissance for the great time.

Loved spending a bit of time in Gullane (the town) after the event  and was a total access whore ;) ;D, engaging kids(or perhaps it was their mums) to legally get on the kids  pitch and putt.

The trees at Renaissance(that are left) are awesome and enhance the stunning beauty of the property-with long open views across the property, yet allowing one to enjoy the stately trees left.
The high grass does not enhance the stunning property.
But,such is the nature and peer pressure of the neighborhood.

Such a great course, and sadly it took multiple plays to see or find many of the features which were buried in deep rough.
The second and third impressions were much better than the first, but I think this would have been true anyway and simply have elevated it from a higher starting point.
First play around I did not feel I was playing the course, but rather playing to STAY on the course.
We played with a pro who was 4 under on his second round with us which he achieved by hitting a driving iron on nearly every hole, which removed any temptations and indirectly probably improved his game, as opposed to options clouding his decisions. ;)

Very hard to understand why anyone would want to hide the greatness of the design and place and remove the freedom and choices from the tee.
So elegant a property and design, yet so (newly) contrived.

Good news is it's very fixable issue with the same grass in fway, primary and high rough.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Niall C on June 27, 2014, 09:12:21 AM
Sean

This weekend, I'm going to win the lottery, I'm absolutely sure of it, and when I do I'm going to sponsor you to spend a year in Scotland going round doing your wonderful photo tours. Scotland needs it, too much focus on the championship links.

As for your comments, I was very interested in your first impression. Renaissance was also my first, and still only, Tom D course and I didn't know what to expect either. I first played it when it was the old layout and it started with half a dozen flattish holes through the trees with many of the holes playing in parallel. All terrific holes but it struck me how "traditional" it felt which was certainly not what I was expecting. Losing 3 flattish holes through the trees and gaining some holes on the coast has perhaps changed the overall character somewhat but it's certainly not lead to a knock on the quality IMO.

Niall 
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: James Boon on June 28, 2014, 01:51:22 PM
Sean,

Thanks for your pictures. I was going to wait until you had finished before putting a few of mine up, but if you are going to do a few holes at a time I will follow in the same style...

The first three holes are over a reasonably flat part of the property, but the excellent greens give its plenty of character so you probably don't realise how flat it is?

View of the first green. There are quite a few bunkers off to the left, but actually there is a bit of room out there and its not a bad area to miss the green.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8622.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8622.jpg.html)


View of the second from the left side of the fairway (dont get me started on the clubhouse)...
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8625.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8625.jpg.html)

...from where an approach has to carry a couple of bunkers short. Anything bailed out right will either run long into that bunker or leave a tricky up and down up and over a slope. As seen from just short left.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8626.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8626.jpg.html)

A view from short of the third. I think I've seen some older photos of this green with a lot more trees behind which I guess have been cleared out recently?
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8628.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8628.jpg.html)

The approach to 4 from the right side, similar to Sean's picture.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8653.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8653.jpg.html)

A bit more undulation in the land here, especially with the raised up green, which has an interesting little valley running through its front portion down to the left, so you think you have carried the front slope but might not have found the best position on the green, seen here from short left
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8633.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8633.jpg.html)

I will follow up with more once Sean has posted more...

Cheers,

James


Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on June 30, 2014, 06:29:46 PM
Renaissance Tour Conts

Jeff

I like your line about playing to stay on the course  :D .  Somebody mentioned #s 4 and 5 as part of a great run of holes.  I didn't get the impression that #5 was special, but that could well be due to the narrowed fairway.  If I were to guess, I think perhaps 40 yards were lost. Additionally, I played the hole in a contrary wind so the set-up may have been extra-odd.  However, the green is one of my favourites on the course.  It seems to me that coming in from the far right allows one to climb straight up the steeply sloped green front.  There isn't much room right or to the rear before balls will trickle away.  Below is the approach to #5.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974538037_967fbf054e_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974538037_967fbf054e_b.jpg)

Speaking of the 6th!  It is one of the more benign looking vicious holes I have experienced. The tee is set at an angle to a narrow green which feeds away from play.  I can't decide if the hole is indecent or just hateful enough to be brilliant.  A contrary tail wind can make the hole highly challenging.  I found the hole challenging, but more manageable with the wind at our face. 
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975619843_9e0a6b631e_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975619843_9e0a6b631e_b.jpg)

Many holes are plagued with long transition walks between holes, the 7th is a case in point. This three shotter used to feature trees and those used for the backdrop were particularly good. Serious changes have happened. The first part of the fairway has been shifted considerably left and many trees were removed.   
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610894058_17ab8732c8_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610894058_17ab8732c8_b.jpg)

The approach before and after.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4844/31163700627_41d5fa2d00_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4844/31163700627_41d5fa2d00_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611017574_55cecc2ca1_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611017574_55cecc2ca1_b.jpg)

While quite narrow for a par 5, there are forward tees which help make the hole enjoyable.  Of course, the green is where the action is and I appreciated an opportunity to aim away from hole knowing the slope will pull the approach left. 
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974537877_8b71fbc0a7_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974537877_8b71fbc0a7_b.jpg)

Behind the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975619688_7131875a72_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975619688_7131875a72_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: BHoover on June 30, 2014, 09:33:35 PM
I wonder why we don't hear more about this place because it looks spectacular from the photos. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the tour.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Scott Warren on June 30, 2014, 10:19:54 PM
Interesting to see how a young course matures. The Renaissance Club certainly appears to have narrowed, which is shame as the likes of the now 4th, 5th and 16th especially were made special by the ample width and abundance of difficult shots from an easy lie - on approach and around the greens.

Here's a few of the same shots from May 2010 (my pics) and June 2014 (Sean's and James's).

Approach to the 1st (old 4th)
(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3346/p5140104.jpg)(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8622.jpg)

Approach to 4th (old 7th)
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2189/p5140123.jpg)(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Renaissance%20Club/057-Copy2_zpsd5f7a529.jpg)

Approach to the 7th (old 10th)
(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1836/p5140135.jpg)(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Renaissance%20Club/061-Copy2_zps33a8759e.jpg)
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 01, 2014, 02:39:26 AM
Sean:

Interesting that you liked the trees behind the 7th as those are the only ones still left that I've thought about removing.  Without them you are looking right up toward the 8th green.  But, the depth perception would be MUCH more difficult since you often can't see much or any of the green surface on the 7th when playing an approach.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2014, 03:15:02 AM
Renaissance Tour Cont.

Tom

The trees are keepers for me because they are lovely, separate and distinguished from each other and provide aiming points.  The 8th doesn't need any visual help to distinguish its quality; it is the best hole on a great course.   In my groups there was some talk of making it a par 5, but having thought on it, I think this would be a shame.  The hole is effectively a par 5 for most golfers anyway and as a long 4 with a difficult green it provides some meat for the better players.  Should a guy like me happen to hit a good drive, the hole is reachable because the ground game is in play.  More tree removal and to my mind it was a mistake. Before and after. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4907/32231703468_6a41e03eee_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4907/32231703468_6a41e03eee_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53609804427_c2416c6666_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53609804427_c2416c6666_b.jpg)

The only issue I have with this hole is, predictably, the rough.  I could be wrong, but I think there used to be an approach from the right which could be played between the centreline and right hand bunkers.  Now, there is little subtlety to the drive and one must carry the centreline bunker to reach and hold the green from the middle of the fairway.  Below are the two views.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4878/32231703588_4e640baf4e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4878/32231703588_4e640baf4e_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4881/46052925472_e409d286fb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4881/46052925472_e409d286fb_b.jpg)

James Reader of this parish having a go.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611131950_839c60b5db_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611131950_839c60b5db_b.jpg)

The magnificent green.  Before and after from rear of the green. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4813/31163700467_41d5fa2d00_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4813/31163700467_41d5fa2d00_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975619273_54296cc7ba_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975619273_54296cc7ba_b.jpg)

Backtracking to the tee.  One of the best features of the routing are the many loops.  Its often very difficult to create two loops of 9, but when there are loops of 1-18, 1-15, 6-18, 16-18, 6-15, 1-5, 1-2, 3-5 and 3-15 which start near the house the idea of 9 hole runs is soon forgotten.  Is there a club which has better access to its course than Renaissance?

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 01, 2014, 03:24:28 AM
I think those trees behind seven should go...

The long view up eight to the horizon beyond - in tandem with the perception issues - would improve the aesthetic... Minimum impact would be the two trees directly behind the pin (which are not the prettiest anyway) and maximum right back to the tree line at the rear on both sides...

That's my opinion from one photo and three site visits... Not that you asked for it...

Great photos by the way, Sean... I looked out mine from 2008 to show the contrast in width but we were playing on a day when the haar had rolled in so they aren't worth posting...
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on July 01, 2014, 09:26:05 AM
I am a keeper on the trees behind seven.
Essentail in lining up the appraoach shot for most people who are not able to get closer to the green in two shots, or for those who can who may fall foul to roygh and or bunkers along the way!

I thought the overall tree control was fabulous and resisted any temptation to translate the property into a pure links land project which in my opinion would have been a disservice to the ioverall landform.

The 'old' holes which are now excellent practice holes are great holes and could easily be incororatedin to a composite like routing at any time.

Number 6 reminded me of the short par three at Streamsong, its length belies its bite ;D
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 01, 2014, 09:55:05 AM
Sean:

Interesting that you liked the trees behind the 7th as those are the only ones still left that I've thought about removing.  Without them you are looking right up toward the 8th green.  But, the depth perception would be MUCH more difficult since you often can't see much or any of the green surface on the 7th when playing an approach.
I'm with Tom on this one, the infinite view would make hole 7 even better.

In general I would not mind if more trees would go between 7,8 and 14,15.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2014, 01:49:42 PM
Generally I like the idea of seeing forward in the round, but I do think #7 feels very different from the remainder of the course and that is partly down to trees.  As I like variety above all else, well, you get it. Interesting that the archies want the trees to go, but two avid golfers want them for their practicality. 

Renaissance Tour Cont.

How often do we encounter two great holes on the trot?  The new 9th is not only great, it is at once beautiful and intimidating.  Its not often I go for long 3s, but this one is special. The green does swing left some, but not as much as the photo suggests.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4901/46052925362_cf81fb5a0b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4901/46052925362_cf81fb5a0b_b.jpg)

James Reader ducking from the rain.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610679511_8ae96a3c21_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610679511_8ae96a3c21_b.jpg)

A look at the 9th from the 12th tee.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611131945_4903498505_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611131945_4903498505_b.jpg)

That brings us to the back nine and the much talked about 10th.  Set in a stunning location, it is not hard to be inspired by the beauty of the 10th. However, the hole didn't thrill me nearly as much as it did others.  My issues are three-fold.  First, the long walk back to the tee is set below the fairway so there is no view of the landing zone unless one bails right.  Second, the rough line down the right comes too close to the green.  The green slopes fairly hard left and I reckon at least five more yards of fairway up the right would make for a more reasonable approach.  As it is now, many people hit up the right and watch the ball roll forever off the green left. Third, given the width of the fairway, the green is a bit too much; a thought never far from my mind.  I would have liked to see some greens which dullards could label dull, meaning there is enough interest present for those who care to notice.  My opinion will be controversial, but the hole didn't click with me anywhere to the degree of #9. That said, the hole plays much better in the winter months when the course is less keen.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611131880_24627c7858_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53611131880_24627c7858_b.jpg)

A look at the hole from near the 9th green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610679486_c873ed908c_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53610679486_c873ed908c_b.jpg)

Behind the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974536762_958f3e9679_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974536762_958f3e9679_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 01, 2014, 02:45:14 PM
I'm with Sean on hole 10, even though the setting is stunning I wasn't crazy about the hole for the same reasons he mentions.

Shortening the hole by bringing the tees forward and higher could solve some of the issues: the long walk back to the tees, the poor view of the fairway and the tough shot into the green. It would make the hole a driveable par 4 of around 300 yards, with hardly a walk back tot the tees, a good view of the fairway from the tees and a shorter approach giving the player more chances to stay on the green.

Would be a cheap solution too, and you could try it out by playing from a mat 30 yards behind the current Ladies tees (see view below)......

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/RC-hole-10b.jpg)
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Brett Hochstein on July 01, 2014, 03:17:15 PM
Sean:

Interesting that you liked the trees behind the 7th as those are the only ones still left that I've thought about removing.  Without them you are looking right up toward the 8th green.  But, the depth perception would be MUCH more difficult since you often can't see much or any of the green surface on the 7th when playing an approach.
I'm with Tom on this one, the infinite view would make hole 7 even better.

In general I would not mind if more trees would go between 7,8 and 14,15.

Maybe start with notching out one of them.  The one second from left (ironically the healthiest one in Scott Warren's photos) feels like the best candidate.  Opens a peekaboo from the left center of the fairway but still gives a sense of depth and backdrop behind the big falloff front right.  It does seem a little harsh having a partially/fully blind green with no sense of where it might lie past the foreground.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Neil White on July 01, 2014, 04:05:07 PM
10 definitely has a sense of 'nearly but not quite' to it, especially off the tee for the reasons Sean raises but Tom was restricted to what could and couldn't be done regarding the tees......

Personally I thought the walk from the 9th green to the tee gave you the opportunity to work out your line - as you made your way down your clear view of the fairway gradually disappeared until you could only see the immediate short right portion of and the top of the mound that acts as a retainer / kicker in the middle of the fairway - should everything be laid out for you to see?  It also heightened the sense of anticipation after hitting your drive.

This photo shows the mound that also helps to provide a more level lie for those finding the right side of the fairway.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/2014-06-24122616_zpsdcbc3c4a.jpg)

Whilst the green could be considered too severe - the front left portion particularly is very steep - it was set up perfectly for those prepared to take the drive on - although like Sean I would have preferred to see the shoulder of rough that juts into the fairway short of the green eased back a touch to give more of an option to run the ball on.  In it's current state those clearing this rough find that their ball caroms over the back of the green.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Greg Taylor on July 01, 2014, 04:26:05 PM
Sean I must be reading too many of your reviews because I am starting to agree with your comments!

I played the RC six months ago with some good golfers and #10 ate us all up. Once you go right on your drive recovery is very difficult - either soften the rough or move the green site was my throw away comment en route to the 12th tee.

+1 on the trees on the 7th - keep them, no question.

Greg

Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 01, 2014, 04:46:17 PM
The trees must go.  Several heathland courses feature a long view down one or more holes and it adds to the overall beauty, whilst at the same time making the shot more challenging.



I couldn't understand the whinning ;) about the lack of visibility on 10.   Heck you get to see all the hole before you walk back and if you can't remember what's out there, then you haven't fully evolved from the nearby fishes!  As you can't see the near edge I bet it makes most aim on a slightly safer line, and that's agood thing.  Another good hole in a course with a lot of them.


PS has anyone got a good photo of the very cool mound at the front of the 7th green? (I prefferred the tee to the right we played on Wednesday).

 Or looking back down 10?




Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: James Boon on July 01, 2014, 05:15:31 PM
Sean,

Thanks for the continuation. Here's my own next contribution...

The short par 4 5th was playing downwind while we were there, allowing my partner and GCAer Ben to get quite close to the green, but it was a tricky approach, with the flag on a small shelf on the right with drop offs short right and long. Here it is from just short right
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8636.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8636.jpg.html)

I suspect Sean you might be correct in that the lost fairway out to the right could hold the easier angle for approach, even if the dry stone wall gets in the way a little?

Its quite possible that most people will have already had a good look at the 6th hole, from the balcony of the clubhouse, as seen here
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8599.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8599.jpg.html)

Playing downwind it was tricky to hold the green, but I did love this little hole. From lower down on the tee
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8654.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8654.jpg.html)

A closer look at the green shows that an apparent safe shot to the left could find a little hollow, perhaps not as bad as the bunkers down the right, but still not easy
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8656.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8656.jpg.html)

We were playing from the forward tee, probably not a bad thing as it was into the wind, but that meant missing a sneak view of the Firth of Forth and also over the fence to some flags on Muirfield in the distance. Here is the tee shot, with forecaddy in the distance
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8659.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8659.jpg.html)

A view of the approach from about 100 yards out shows the great little mound and then big drop off short left. The fairway were this is taken from was also like a hogs back and my layup on one round did kick off it wildly and miss the fairway by a yard or two, only for me to find it was waist high thick rough!
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8642.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8642.jpg.html)

Sean has already shown the virtues of the 8th which I too thought was a good hole. The green reminded me of the pictures I've seen of the old MacKenzie green at Sitwell Park?
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8661.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8661.jpg.html)

Onto 9 and when you get to the green, suddenly the view of the sea reveals itself!
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8669.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8669.jpg.html)

And lastly for tonight, the 10th. I actually thought it was a decent hole and the walk back to the tee not such an issue, just a shame that the view of the fairway wasnt great. Having said that, I fully realise that as Angela Moser describes elsewhere, with the land being a SSSI the tees are pretty much at the level they had to be, and as Neil point out you do get a view of whats coming as you walk off the 9th green, as seen here
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8604.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8604.jpg.html)

View from the tee. Not a bad setting though is it?
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8607.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8607.jpg.html)

From just short, the mound to the right and shape of the green does make it a tricky approach but I felt it was another wonderful green
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8609.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8609.jpg.html)

Lastly, one of the things that I imagine really increases peoples love of the 10th is the view back across the hole, the bay and the Firth of Forth beyond as you climb up to the next tee.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8615.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8615.jpg.html)

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Marty Bonnar on July 01, 2014, 05:59:30 PM
... And the magnificent view of the Kingdom of Fife, of course!
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Ryan Coles on July 01, 2014, 06:03:56 PM
Interesting reading the comments about the rough not being what was intended with the original design.

Do the powers that be at Castle Stuart not deserve a lot of credit for not altering/narrowing even when hosting the Scottish Open?
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Anthony Fowler on July 01, 2014, 06:49:51 PM
Sean, thanks for taking the lead with this great thread. I recently played two rounds at Renaissance, so it's still very fresh in my mind. Here are a few reactions so far:

This course has so much going for it, including scenic beauty, dramatic contour, perfect links conditions, and a spectacular set of greens. I agree with what others have already written about the width and penal nature of some holes. Marginal misses can easily result in lost balls or chip outs, which is frustrating. The course was a lot easier on the second round, because I knew where I could miss, where the ball would bounce, where I didn't need to hit driver, etc. Nonetheless, there are several holes that lack strategy and just require two straight shots. In my mind, this is probably the one factor that leaves this course slightly behind the very best courses. Among other Doak courses, for me, it's in the same league as Streamsong and Stone Eagle (pretty good company!) but behind Pacific, Ballyneal, and Barnbougle. Its high notes are as good as anywhere and there are no bad holes, but there are also too many unmemorable holes.

On the 10th in particular, I have to disagree with the criticisms. Perhaps it's lame to say that you love the one hole that runs along the ocean, but it's one of the best holes that I have ever played. Not only is the hole as scenic and dramatic as you find anywhere, but the hole exemplifies strategic golf.

Think about the 5th hole at Merion, one of the greatest holes in the world and often lauded on this site for its strategic merits. If you hit to the left side of the fairway, challenging the creek and taking a risk, you get a shorter approach from a flatter lie and a better angle into the severely sloped green. If you bail out to the right, you get a longer approach with the ball above your feet and a worse angle into the green. Unfortunately, Merion has diminished some of this hole's strategic value by narrowing the fairway and pushing the tee back to 500 yards, but the concept is still a great one. In my view, the 10th hole at Renaissance executes this concept even better than 5 at Merion, and instead of a little creek, you have to worry about a cliff edge and an ocean!

Sean and others criticized two features of this hole: the left side of the fairway is blind from the tee and the green is too severely sloped. Personally, I think these are great features. The rewarding, left side of the fairway is supposed to be hard to hit, and the partially blind tee shot adds to the challenge and excitement. Furthermore, the severity of the green is essential for the strategy of the hole to work out. You want it to be very difficult for the player who bailed out to the right to be able to hold the green with his/her approach. In my second round, I bailed out way too far to the right, and I was left with a 170 yard approach with the ball way above my feet, a rock-hard right-to-left sloping green, and a terrible angle. I hit the best shot I could and had to watch it roll off the back-left corner of the green, but I loved it. That's precisely the penalty I deserved for flailing my tee shot to the safe part of the fairway. In order to fully embrace the strategic merits of the hole, I think you have to accept the severity and accept that fact that a mediocre shot or a conservative line off the tee will force you to face a much more difficult approach.

I should also say that I spent some extra time chipping and putting around this green, and I found it to be tricky, challenging, exciting, etc. but also playable. While there are no dull putts or chips on that green, and while you certainly don't want to be in the junk to the right of the hole, you still have a decent chance at saving par from anywhere within reason.

On the walk back to the tee, I would say that, in general, I don't like walking back to tees but I'm happy to make an exception in this case. First, the walk is beautiful and serene. Second, the walk gives you a chance to see the fairway so there are no surprises even though the tee shot is partially blind once you get back there. Third, the hole is good enough that the backtrack is worth it.

For all of these reasons, I'm willing to say that #10 at Renaissance is one of my favorite holes. Maybe it's cliche to love the dramatic, beautiful ocean hole, and you'll have to take my word for it that it's not just the eye candy that's making me say this. I look forward to more discussion.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2014, 07:47:17 PM
I don't mean to suggest #10 is a poor or average hole; for sure its a good hole.  It could be that what makes a great hole is really a good hole that people like a lot for whatever reason.  I would be inclined to think along Frank's line; eliminate the walk back and create a shorter 4 from near the 9th green.  I don't like the idea of walking to a poor visual spot to tee off...doesn't make much sense to me.

Renaissance Tour Cont

Onto the 11th; quite a whimsical hole which I liked a lot.  The wall is a great counter feature to the bunker and knob shy of the green.  My only complaint is the tee platform blocks out the view of the bunker area.  Its such a visually lovely hole that its a shame to cut the view down. 
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974536367_e58ab93e64_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51974536367_e58ab93e64_b.jpg)

A look at the green with the 9th on the left.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975543841_9b897363cf_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51975543841_9b897363cf_b.jpg)

Heading back in the direction of the 10th, 12 is perhaps the most prosaic hole on the course, but not bad for that.  The three-shot 13th makes the turn for home.  There is a cluster of left bunkers for aggressive players to carry.  I suspect there was more fairway left which left a better angle to cope with the hog back fairway shy of the green.  Many will play out to to the right and have to decide if they want to knock the second far enough to reach the hog back.  Again, in the not so long ago days, I bet the chance of losing the long blind approach was greatly reduced with an enlarged fairway.  Now, the fairway is narrow enough where balls can hit either side of the hog back and shoot into the jungle.  I immediately thought of Addington's infamous 8th when I crested the hill and saw that two balls hit down the middle were not seen.  There is nothing wrong with the element of luck when bangin' the second down the hill, but its disheartening not to know which section of hay to search. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4846/46052924492_a84b358b71_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4846/46052924492_a84b358b71_b.jpg)

The pictures below showcase the classy green and hog back. There is a cracking bunker hidden in a fold midish left of the green. 
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4812/31163699957_914803365b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4812/31163699957_914803365b_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4900/46052924682_32f83e54a8_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4900/46052924682_32f83e54a8_b.jpg)

More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 02, 2014, 02:32:57 AM
Sean:

Normally I tire of those folks who say you don't know a course until you have played it in different conditions, etc., but reading your write-up of the 13th, it strikes me that none of you saw The Renaissance Club in the normal [strong] wind from the west.  Holes like the 7th and 8th are much more reachable in that wind, but the 11th and 13th, especially, take on a different character than what any of you saw.  It takes most people two solid shots at the 13th just to get to the crest of the hill, and playing the pitch downhill and into the wind is not easy.

I don't mean to put a damper on your review; we are enjoying the feedback and it's interesting to see which holes you like more or less on a course I am very familiar with.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 02, 2014, 04:32:49 AM
Tom

Yes, I realize we had a contrary wind for three rounds, but thats the nature of the beast. We get a snapshot of a course and if we are lucky we get to return some day.   However, the issue with 13 isn't how short the hole played (a guy I played with hit driver 5 iron), regardless, it still takes two good shots with a bit of luck to two putt for birdie.  My issue is with the narrow fairway around the hogback.  I guess one could say to avoid that problem lay-up at the top of the hill; its not terribly fun to lay up with an 8 iron from the middle of the fairway on a three-shot hole, but it is an alternative. 

I reckon 8 is great no matter the wind direction. I didn't mind one bit having to bash driver/3 wood and fail to reach the green on three occasions from the middle of the fairway.  While very different, 8 is in league with Foxy and Sea Headrig - its that good. 

Renaissance Tour Cont.

Like the 4th, we encounter a hole which rises sharply.  It takes a big ball to fly the bunkers on 14 so most will be short and face a blind approach.  The green is slightly off set which makes me think that at one time the green could approach up the gut from the far left side of the fairway which is now rough.  As the hole is set up now, the approach is extremely demanding.   
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4904/31163699627_0c83a40c24_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4904/31163699627_0c83a40c24_b.jpg)

The 15th green is somewhat similar to the 14th in that it is slightly askew and very difficult to hit.  Lots of balls end up in the right hand sand, but a four can be had from there and an up n' down is far from impossible.  The golfer now has the choice of playing on or heading for the bar.   Quite reachable in two, for a golfer of my meager abilities, the par 5 sixteenth is one of Renaissance's few realistic birdie opportunities. This is mainly due to the relatively gentle green.  17 looks tougher than it is for a longish par 3.  One can spray it a bit right, but the recovery for a three is trickier than it would seem.  One of the aspects of the course I don't hear much about is the ground game.  There are plenty of opportunities to bounce balls into greens, but often only from the correct angle and at risk.  On 17 there is a deep swale between a bunker left and mound right. I watched a beautifully struck ball land well short, bounce and roll to six feet. 

Despite the removal of the right tree (shown in photos below), 18 is one of my favourite holes and brings the golfer home in style. Big hitters have a huge advantage as they can blow it over the right hand bunker, but horrible rough and a stone wall may give some pause to the flat bellies.  Most will have to work a drive between the bunkers or lay back, leaving a mid to long iron/wood.  Much like Pinehurst's putting surfaces, the raised green is a tough target, but once putting it isn't onerous.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4831/31163699287_9d1c755ac1_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4831/31163699287_9d1c755ac1_b.jpg)

The green from near the 6th tee.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4826/32231703658_5a4b91965a_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/4826/32231703658_5a4b91965a_b.jpg)

For my money, the front nine is the more compelling side, but then it would be with #s 8 and 9.  That isn't to say the back nine isn't without its moments; #s 11, 13 & 18 provide a fine canvass of variety.  It is the variety of greens, elevation changes and scenery which combine to make Renaissance very rewarding to play. It was mentioned earlier, but its difficult to overstate the superb access to the course from the house. This is the piece de resistance of Renaissance; setting it apart from a number of other top courses.  However, I hope the club takes the decision to push out some fairways and alter some cut lines.  I say this because the course is far more enjoyable in the winter than summer so why not offer that enjoyment all year? The course can only be improved by doing so and Renaissance is far too good not to achieve its full potential.   1*  2024

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Patrice Boissonnas on July 02, 2014, 07:24:35 AM
My feelings about 10 are mixed.
I would normally mind the long walk down to the back tees but with such a beautiful view I actually enjoyed this breathing moment at the turn between 9 and 10.
As a rule I always tend to favor visibility but I must admit I liked the “play & pray” / “hit & hope” feel when driving this hole. You don’t see the fairway but you know what your line is, especially if you’re a regular player of the course.
On the other hand, the second shot offers no option and is even impossible if played from the right of the fairway. This is frustrating and could only be solved with more room both right and left of the greens which I am no sure could be made available due to severely sloping terrain.
In the end, 10 seems a little one-dimensional but that’s not necessarily a bad thing if the exception rather than the rule.
Maybe the club could consider multiple tee boxes similar to hole 10 at Castle Stuart.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Patrice Boissonnas on July 02, 2014, 07:54:18 AM
About par 3’s at RC:
6 is a stunningly clever little one, clearly my favorite par 3 on course.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36237966/GCA%20pics/Renaissance%20Club/JPEG/DSC06658.jpg)
9 plays beautifully. A great long iron/hybrid challenge with lots of room around the green for rolling the ball towards the hole. (sorry, no pic of this one).

Compared to those 2 gems, I think 11, 15 and 17 have less for themselves.
11 has world class potential but is IMO spoiled by two (easily fixable) things: the front tee is too long/high and hides the view from the back tee. The gigantic knob front of the green makes the hole look like a lottery. Having said that I realize it’s the king of feature you like on old courses but strangely reject on new designs… I’d have to sleep on it…
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36237966/GCA%20pics/Renaissance%20Club/JPEG/DSC06678.jpg)
15 is OK but strangely enough lacks visual appeal. Fun to play though.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36237966/GCA%20pics/Renaissance%20Club/JPEG/DSC06683.jpg)
17 has a very nice green complex but hardly visible from the tee. Standing on the tee, you feel you’re just playing a connecting hole between 16 and 18 rather than a hole which was meant to be laid at this specific spot. Maybe routing is to blame here.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36237966/GCA%20pics/Renaissance%20Club/JPEG/DSC06689.jpg)
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on July 02, 2014, 11:03:18 AM
I absolutely ,loved number 10.
This is what I love about this site, it just shows how hard it is to please everydoy.
The challenge that the tee shot places as a rsik reward is superb.
Once you have played it a few times and get "some balls" you realise what you cwn cut off down that left side making the second shot much more into that slope on the right and making it esaier to control the distance of the approach.

or

Down the right side and more of a guessing game on how short to land your aprroach shot and how much the ball may run into the trouble on that left side.
The greens proximity to the left rouble and the slope encourahing the off line shot into that trouble is pure genius to me.
To me it is one of those holes I could play all day.
Love the semi blind tee shot, the walk to the tee is breathtaking and enahances the feel of being oceanside, and then that look from the tee when you get there is Cypress like ;D

Loved it....
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on July 02, 2014, 11:33:32 AM
My views on number 11.
When I first stepped onto the tee I thoght wow, this has true Postage Stamp potential, not that I am suggesting anybody should copy!!
But I thought by moving the tee a little to the right, and shortening to a mere 130/140, on ethe view of the green would be less inhibited by the raised front of the tee but  also the line into that green with the wall more parallel to the target line just created a great visual to me.
The green would become almost Redanish from theat angle, the left hump then becomes less intrusive and less whimsically penal and I hate to use the word fair.

I thought that the left hump made the approach shot too "by chance" on the bounce due to its severity, but if played more from the right it would be more collective than chance.
I agree into the wind the hole would change 100% and then you would allow the player to carry that hump totally knowing that the wind/spin would allow you to kkep the ball on the green.
The wall feature is simply awesome though.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 02, 2014, 12:41:44 PM
My views on number 11.
When I first stepped onto the tee I thoght wow, this has true Postage Stamp potential, not that I am suggesting anybody should copy!!
But I thought by moving the tee a little to the right, and shortening to a mere 130/140, on ethe view of the green would be less inhibited by the raised front of the tee but  also the line into that green with the wall more parallel to the target line just created a great visual to me.
The green would become almost Redanish from theat angle, the left hump then becomes less intrusive and less whimsically penal and I hate to use the word fair.

I thought that the left hump made the approach shot too "by chance" on the bounce due to its severity, but if played more from the right it would be more collective than chance.
I agree into the wind the hole would change 100% and then you would allow the player to carry that hump totally knowing that the wind/spin would allow you to kkep the ball on the green.
The wall feature is simply awesome though.

I have not played #11 into the prevailing wind since the hole opened, but I suspect that like the 11th at Pacific Dunes it would often require a long iron from the tee and that it is really quite a bitch of a hole.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Neil White on July 02, 2014, 12:46:54 PM
Hole 11 is a quirky little so and so.

Semi-blind, downhill, devilish bunker at the front and a wall at the rear.....

If my memory serves me we played it with a helping breeze each time - I would imagine the hole would become a brute with a strong northerly to north-westerly wind in your face but as MWP suggests that could make holding the green easier.

It would've been nice to see a little more short grass on the slope short and left of the green to entice a low punched shot into the green working around the fronting bunker and possibly an extension of the green at the rear toward the wall to make use of the slight slope that is there.





Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 02, 2014, 01:44:43 PM

11 has world class potential but is IMO spoiled by two (easily fixable) things: the front tee is too long/high and hides the view from the back tee.

To illustrate PB's point, the view from the white tees over the yellow tees to the green

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/RC-hole-11.jpg)
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 02, 2014, 01:50:44 PM
Again for people interested in studying RC in detail, including details of all the superb greens, see these photo tours of RC in 2011 with old configuration and in 2014 with new configuration (in 2014 tour starts on hole 3, I did not photograph holes 1 and 2)

http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/Scotland/Renaissance-Club (http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/Scotland/Renaissance-Club)

Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 02, 2014, 02:07:18 PM
Hole 11 is a quirky little so and so.

Semi-blind, downhill, devilish bunker at the front and a wall at the rear.....

If my memory serves me we played it with a helping breeze each time - I would imagine the hole would become a brute with a strong northerly to north-westerly wind in your face but as MWP suggests that could make holding the green easier.

It would've been nice to see a little more short grass on the slope short and left of the green to entice a low punched shot into the green working around the fronting bunker and possibly an extension of the green at the rear toward the wall to make use of the slight slope that is there.

There used to be more short grass at the left front (as well as many other places on the course).

We thought about extending the green but the greenkeeper was concerned about the frequency of mowing so close to the wall.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Niall C on July 02, 2014, 02:24:18 PM
I'm a bit puzzled by some of the comments on the 10th. The only real negative for me is the walk up to the 11th tee but then again its unavoidable and you'd rather have that mid round than at the end. As many have commented, visibility of the 11th green could be improved from the tee and perhaps this would help with providing a sense of arrival when you get to the tee.

Anyway, back to the 10th. I loved the walk back to the tee. A real sense of being out on a limb in a wilder landscape than the rest of the course (if that doesn't sound too poncy). The walk is easy and affords a great challenge for the tee shot. Mark me down also as a fan of the semi-blind aspect with the left side obscured. It just adds to the challenge. Hit it there if you dare.

Also OK with the green. Nothing says you have to be able to hold a green irrespective of where you play from. I put one over back left and had an interesting chip back. It was certainly playable. Thumbs up from me.

Trees - I'm not a tree hugger but neither am I a mad axeman. I'd be happy enough with some stands of trees being left. To my mind they can help frame a view or act as a marker post of sorts. I appreciate that last reason might be why some might want to do away with them but as a player, I really can't be arsed with architects playing with a golfers sense of perception. They can also help disguise some of the shaping. Case in point would be the 14th which had the stand of trees behind before the recent changes. Without them it appears more obvious to me the push up nature of the green. That might just be me mind you.

Niall
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on July 02, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
My views on number 11.
When I first stepped onto the tee I thoght wow, this has true Postage Stamp potential, not that I am suggesting anybody should copy!!
But I thought by moving the tee a little to the right, and shortening to a mere 130/140, on ethe view of the green would be less inhibited by the raised front of the tee but  also the line into that green with the wall more parallel to the target line just created a great visual to me.
The green would become almost Redanish from theat angle, the left hump then becomes less intrusive and less whimsically penal and I hate to use the word fair.

I thought that the left hump made the approach shot too "by chance" on the bounce due to its severity, but if played more from the right it would be more collective than chance.
I agree into the wind the hole would change 100% and then you would allow the player to carry that hump totally knowing that the wind/spin would allow you to kkep the ball on the green.
The wall feature is simply awesome though.

I have not played #11 into the prevailing wind since the hole opened, but I suspect that like the 11th at Pacific Dunes it would often require a long iron from the tee and that it is really quite a bitch of a hole.


From that back tee especially a real man up and "how big of a boy are you " hole.
I guess we both just need to go back and play it into the wind ;)
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 02, 2014, 04:19:41 PM
Sean:

Interesting that you liked the trees behind the 7th as those are the only ones still left that I've thought about removing.  Without them you are looking right up toward the 8th green.  But, the depth perception would be MUCH more difficult since you often can't see much or any of the green surface on the 7th when playing an approach.

Could not resist doing a quick before and after picture showing tree removal behind hole 7, enjoy!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/RC-hole-7.jpg)

Before


(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/RC-hole-7-after.jpg)

After

I know which one I prefer......
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: James Boon on July 02, 2014, 06:19:47 PM
Sean, and everyone else who has contributed, great pictures! These are my last ones...

Sure the walk up to the 11th tee is a bit of a pain, but as I pointed out, the view isnt bad, and its not a bad little hole when you get to the tee. Notwithstanding the lack of a decent view of the green from the back of the tee as discussed. The bunker short left and the wall back right are an interesting and challenging combination, but the mound back left is just as tricky an obstacle, seen here with a back left hole location
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8675.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8675.jpg.html)

The 12th was I believe adjusted when the new holes were added. Perhaps Tom can detail the exact changes? Here is a view from the fairway
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8677.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8677.jpg.html)
The bunker on the right almost has a sneeky little gap down the right for a run in, if the fairway was ever muh wider that side?

The drive on the 13th could challenge the bunkers up the left, but another one was hiding just beyond, as was one lost in the rough...
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8679.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8679.jpg.html)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8680.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8680.jpg.html)

Going for this green in two was on for most people with the wind behind and downwind nature of the hole. I seemed to always end up short right no matter where or what I hit. I tried to persuade Sean to run a mid iron down the hill after a great drive but he wasnt interested and blasted a fairway wood at it, no doubt concerned with the kicks from the fairway, but still with a great result!

The drive on the 14th was with wind behind tricky as the bunkers were all reachable. Here is the approach from just short of them that needed to be faded in
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8681.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8681.jpg.html)

The 15th was a challenging par 3 with right of the green seeming to attract everything even with plenty of room right
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8684.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8684.jpg.html)

The 16th, again changed in the revised routing, is now a par 5. Here is a view from the fairway with the green out of view almost
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8686.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8686.jpg.html)

But over the rise and its a great view of the green and the wider setting
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8689.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8689.jpg.html)

As already mentioned the 17th is a great green, but isnt a great looking hole from the tee. Here is a view from a little closer, showing the deep front bunker
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8693.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8693.jpg.html)

Lastly, after the drive already described by Sean, the approach over the dry stone dyke to a tricky green
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8698.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/jamesboon53/media/2014%2006%20The%20Renaissance%20Club/IMG_8698.jpg.html)

I cant really add much more as most points have already been made so hopefully these pictures add to the discussion. I will though say that the course deserves to be ranked higher than it is in GB&I lists, but I've mentioned playing there to so many people who havent even heard of it. Perhaps that will change over time? Also, its disappointing that with Castle Stuart showing how a new, strategic links with width can be used for the Scottish Open, that TRC feels it needs to tighten the course to toughen it up. Lastly, the greens and their surrounds are certainly one of the best sets I've played. I think that I could happily have taken a putter and a 7 iron and a few balls out to just spend time around any one of those greens, chipping and putting, for the sheer fun of it!

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Niall C on July 03, 2014, 07:31:53 AM
James

Re your last para, that's exactly what I did on the practice holes. A great way the spend some time.

Niall
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on July 03, 2014, 08:56:22 AM
Sean:

Interesting that you liked the trees behind the 7th as those are the only ones still left that I've thought about removing.  Without them you are looking right up toward the 8th green.  But, the depth perception would be MUCH more difficult since you often can't see much or any of the green surface on the 7th when playing an approach.

Could not resist doing a quick before and after picture showing tree removal behind hole 7, enjoy!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/RC-hole-7.jpg)

Before


(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/RC-hole-7-after.jpg)

After

I know which one I prefer......

Frank from that view no doubt which one I prefer to.....but from 120 out, with a blind shot into the green I am not sure I would thik the same thing.

That been said how visible is the remaining tree from the fairway, perhaps that would suffice as some from of target to base the shot upon?

Really enjoyed playing with you and Patrice, a true treat to listen to two guys in the biz.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 03, 2014, 10:05:33 AM
Michael,

well spotted, that's exactly why I left the tree on the right!

Plan that Low Countries trip for next year, we'll have some more fun....
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 03, 2014, 10:08:36 AM
James

Re your last para, that's exactly what I did on the practice holes. A great way the spend some time.

Niall

I wholeheartedly echo this sentiment; the greens at RC are what made the course shine the most for me.

I wrote TD that the greens were very very good, in terms of variety, randomness of small features, approach strategy and recovery options for missed shots around the greens. If you play this course every day you will get a very good and creative short game. I especially loved the possibility and often reward to play bump and run shots, sometimes even with the 3 wood or putter from quite far out.

Great stuff.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 04, 2014, 02:58:50 AM
Yes, the greens are the high point of the design, but I also like how the course flows except for the tame ending from 16, though I like 18 a lot.  Something just doesn't sit right for me with #s 16 & 17, but I honestly can't say they aren't good holes.  For sure, I can't point to any less than good hole on the course.

I need to go back just to see #6 playing into a headwind  :D

Ciao 
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 04, 2014, 03:31:54 AM
I remember liking the 16th in its previous par four format... And I seem to remember the 17th being a strong par three given its position in the round... although my memory of the detail is a little hazy.

Given that you described the 12th as one of the most prosaic holes on the course, It seems to me that the biggest loss from the old routing may be the old 12th which came at the culmination of a world class three hole stretch (following the current 7th & 8th)...

I really liked the Renaissance (2008 version)... A great course in great company...
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Jim Nugent on July 04, 2014, 03:37:51 AM

I really liked the Renaissance (2008 version)... A great course in great company...

So which do you think is better? 
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 04, 2014, 03:52:49 AM

I really liked the Renaissance (2008 version)... A great course in great company...

So which do you think is better? 

I haven't seen the new one, Jim. I'm sure if the choice was made to use the ocean by developer and architect, then there is more than a 50% chance that new is better...

The old routing did have its weaknesses with the front nine tracking back and forth a little on more inland terrain... But I loved the feel and finishing on the course...
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 04, 2014, 03:58:41 AM
Ally

I haven't paid much attention to what has changed at Reniassance, but I gather the back nine is radically different.  That said, the 12th may have been extended, but the green struck me as new?  I am sure someone can run thru the changes.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on July 04, 2014, 04:50:07 AM
Ally

I haven't paid much attention to what has changed at Reniassance, but I gather the back nine is radically different.  That said, the 12th may have been extended, but the green struck me as new?  I am sure someone can run thru the changes.

Ciao

Sean, Here is Scott's photos and descriptions from another thread... In essence, the old 12th played from the left of the current 8th's green up to a skyline green (which I guess was higher and further on than today's 11th tees)... Then a par-3 played in to the corner before the Par-5 down the hill (current 13, old 14)

12th hole - par 4 - 462/399/355

The 12th climbs a steady slope to a skyline green, with a centreline bunker visable from the tee that sits 140 yards out from the green and is 300/237/193 from the tee. Again, a good example of why choosing the right tees at TRC is crucial to appreciating the course.

Over the hill are bunkers either side of the fairway that stretch from 94-52 yards short of the green on the left and 74-64 yards short on the right. Played into a strong wind, these bunkers are likely to be a factor on your second shot.

One of the things that stood out at TRC was that the bunkering seemed remarkably relevant regardless of the wind I imagined as I stood on the tee, without there simply being sand all over the place to allow for any eventuality. Perhaps that is a benefit it has as a modern layout: the bunkering and tees were designed from scratch for the technology of the current day.

The second shot is probably one of the most memorable on the course. Not much room for error, but the green is 40 yards long, so it's easier to hit than it seems, but obviously that length could lead to some very long putts!

The undulation on much of TRC is as good as I have seen on any links, as the pics of this hole thankfully managed to capture.

The drive:
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5167/p5140153.jpg)

In the fairway about 170 yards out:
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2103/p5140155.jpg)

Short right of the green:
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9995/p5140158.jpg)
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 04, 2014, 05:57:30 AM
Like Ally, I was a great fan of the old 12th, which came at the end of a run of seriously good holes.  It would be great to get back to see the changes but the new holes would have to be seriously good to compensate for the loss of the old 12th!
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 04, 2014, 06:52:42 AM
The current 12th starts from the old 12th fairway and runs to the old 13th green, combining the two holes into one.  We took out one bunker short and left of the 13th green, but otherwise it's the same green, played from a different angle (about 30 or 40 degrees more to the right now).

The old 12th was one of my favorite holes on the course, but only a few people would consider saving it more important than adding the new 9th and 10th and 11th.  Also, the old 12th came in tandem with the old par-3 13th which was one of the weakest holes on the old course, and the old 14th (now 13th) was improved by shifting the tees further left.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 04, 2014, 07:56:29 AM
The current 12th starts from the old 12th fairway and runs to the old 13th green, combining the two holes into one.  We took out one bunker short and left of the 13th green, but otherwise it's the same green, played from a different angle (about 30 or 40 degrees more to the right now).

The old 12th was one of my favorite holes on the course, but only a few people would consider saving it more important than adding the new 9th and 10th and 11th.  Also, the old 12th came in tandem with the old par-3 13th which was one of the weakest holes on the old course, and the old 14th (now 13th) was improved by shifting the tees further left.
Thanks, Tom. 
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Niall C on July 04, 2014, 08:14:43 AM
It's funny, from my one time play of the old routing, I recall being right of the green and getting up and down on the old 12th. However from what I recall the green was more of a plateau than is suggested in those photo's, particularly on the right hand side or perhaps I'm falling into the fisherman trick of exaggerating the size of the fish.

Either way I remember it as a very nice hole but not necessarily a standout which is no knock given the company. I recall it sat more on the ridge, a bit to the left of the current fairway which therefore afforded it a better view of the water. I wonder if that has a bearing in folks recollection of the quality of the hole ?

Niall
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 04, 2014, 08:20:04 AM
A few random thoughts.

Who is the course for?   Given the cost of entry I conclude it’s for wealthy , and therefore most probably older golfers only a few of whom will be low cappers. The rest will have spent too much time behind a desk! I wonder what the membership feel about the rough and will more want to join?  I’m guessing overseas visitors will be used to forecaddies and want to see their course as tough, but that’s an alien world to me.

Sean loved the various loops, but I doubt the members take much advantage of them. It’s a destination club and for some reason golfers never seem to play e.g. 22 holes.  Maybe I’m wrong…

NO one else has talked about the flow of the course. I expected to get used to it but after 3 ‘big’ holes you have 3 holes which test your finesse more.  Two more ‘big’ holes and then the new loop which, at the moment, feels different again.  It’s only from 12 that I felt the course really flowed.

The 15th is the only hole I had real doubts about. Perhaps it was the wind direction but I seemed to have similar hybrids to 9, 15 and 17.  I would have preferred a mid iron hole.  Not bad but just not as good as the others.

I mentioned this to a few people and only one agreed, but I did find the grass around the greens ‘grabby’. I had much trouble trying to run the ball from fairway to green. Perhaps time will solve this and perhaps it was just part of my problems with the putter.

Finally let me just say the above amounts to little more than nit picking. What an event and what a course. I had huge fun playing there and if you ever have a chance, grab it. I can recall every hole in detail and in particular loved, 2, 3 (very subtle green, loved the pin position on Tuesday), 4, 5, 6 (Scott was right), 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13 (hit green in two!) 14, 16, 17 & 18.   Not bad at all!

Thanks to everyone at Renaissance Golf Design and at the Renaissance Golf Club. It was a gas.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 05, 2014, 07:04:54 AM
Interesting Spangles, I thought from 12 the course started to fizzle out a bit.  It would take a lot of will power on my part to continue to 16 rather than go back to 6.  I spose that is one drawback of many loops and a low membership count.  A guy like me would probably do 6-15 an awful lot. 

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Niall C on July 05, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
If I was trying very hard to be hyper-critical I would make two criticisms;

1 - 16th - doesn't quite work for me. I seem to recall it as a better hole first time round when I think I'm right in saying that it was a par 4. Then you had the bunker left to contend with from the drive. After that, assuming you had an OK drive, you had a shot to the green that was reasonably receptive in the sense that it's at grade albeit with a pronounced slope. Now the hole has been lengthened and the bunker left really isn't in play except for long hitters in the right conditions. For most including me the next shot is going to be short of the green to a blind fairway which slopes off on both sides into hazards. In my book there is nothing wrong with a bit of blindness, its in my DNA, however it usually goes hand in hand with a bit of latitude that this hole doesn't give you.

2 - can someone please produce a users manual for the showers. I don't have to push that many buttons to re-programme my VCR.

Niall
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 05, 2014, 07:23:38 AM
Niall:

Re: 16, again, when the wind is behind you instead of against you [which is the majority of the time], it is much more reachable in two and the blindness of the fairway 75-100 yards short of the green is not as much of a factor.  I liked it as a par-4, too, but it was a much easier hole downwind.
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Niall C on July 05, 2014, 07:51:56 AM
Thanks Tom, now can you do something about the showers ?

Re - 16th - I'm of course guilty of looking at it from my own perspective. A shorter hitter would have had the same problems when it was a par 4 that I do as a par 5. The basic moan is that the long hitter flies by the trouble whereas the shorter hitter has to thread his/her way through it. Not quite risk reward as there is probably more of a premium on being accurate for the shorter hitter than for the guy going for the green.

As an aside, when David and I were playing Mike (of Riviera fame) and his partner Charlie, Charlie reached with a driver and an iron. Thankfully for David and I Charlie hit his first putt as hard as his iron.  ;D

Niall
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 06, 2014, 05:26:45 AM
Niall

There are a few holes like that at RC, but why not?  One problem with the RCup is higher cappers playing with very good golfers from the same tees (not long for very good golfers).  Inevitably, the stronger players have a length advantage.  So long as it doesn't involve too much bobbing and weaving for the harried higher cappers, I don't mind. Every course needs a few holes which clearly advantage the stronger player; be that length or accuracy.

Ciao 
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Niall C on July 06, 2014, 08:45:09 AM
Sean

I think you misunderstand my objection to the hole. In fact I wouldn't even call it an objection but why I don't think it works as well as it could is not because the big hitter has an advantage but rather the nature of that advantage is that the shorter hitter has a blind approach to an area where the ball spills off both sides into hazards. In the old days such holes would likely have evolved with some of the hazards taken out through players experience of the hole, in order to give some degree of latitude to compensate for the blind nature of the shot. As you allude, if shorter hitters played from a forward tee then this disadvantage might at least be partially alleviated however I'm not a fan of that approach and would rather see flexibility be built into the design of the hole rather than reducing the length.

Personally I think if you filled in the bunker right and gave the shorter hitter a relatively safe line of passage up the right you would still be keeping the longer hitters relative advantage as coming in from the right to a green that slopes away from you isn't going to be easy. As an aside it would also fit with the MacKenzie maxim of providing the weaker player a route to the hole.

Niall
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 07, 2014, 04:02:38 AM
Niall

Perhaps you are right, but one can always lay-up short of the right bunker.  To some degree, the hole suffers because of the narrowed fairway, but even as it is, I didn't think the long approach was that tight for a par 5.  For instance, #13 has a much higher probability of a ball kicking either direction into never never land.  I guess I don't have a problem with 16.  Its not exceptional, but neither do I think it unreasonable.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Frank Pont on July 07, 2014, 05:49:18 AM
Yes, the greens are the high point of the design, but I also like how the course flows except for the tame ending from 16, though I like 18 a lot.  Something just doesn't sit right for me with #s 16 & 17, but I honestly can't say they aren't good holes.  For sure, I can't point to any less than good hole on the course.

Ciao  

Sean,  funny enough I had the same feeling at the start of the course. Even though 1 and 2 are fine (and quite difficult) holes, I would rather skip them and start playing on a slightly shorter hole 3, a more classic easy par 5 start. Then just find 2 new par 3's to weave in the remaining 16 holes (between 7-8 and 13-14), and make holes 10 and 15 driveable par 4's and you have my perfect course.....
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Sean_A on July 07, 2014, 06:53:20 AM
Yes, the greens are the high point of the design, but I also like how the course flows except for the tame ending from 16, though I like 18 a lot.  Something just doesn't sit right for me with #s 16 & 17, but I honestly can't say they aren't good holes.  For sure, I can't point to any less than good hole on the course.

Ciao  

Sean,  funny enough I had the same feeling at the start of the course. Even though 1 and 2 are fine (and quite difficult) holes, I would rather skip them and start playing on a slightly shorter hole 3, a more classic easy par 5 start. Then just find 2 new par 3's to weave in the remaining 16 holes (between 7-8 and 13-14), and make holes 10 and 15 driveable par 4's and you have my perfect course.....

Frank

I really like the opener except that it doesn't start near the house.  Perhaps it might be better if the parking lot were turned into a putting green and the cars parked out of sight somewhere (I am always keen to hide cars).  That said, with so many loops and a few starting points near the house, one can't have everything.  I said it before, but I can imagine myself playing a lot of 6-15 loops.   

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB - A Heathland(?) Beauty
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 12, 2014, 06:20:28 AM

A few more photo's


(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020012.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Muldoon3/media/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020012.jpg.html)


(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020014.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Muldoon3/media/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020014.jpg.html)

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020011.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Muldoon3/media/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020011.jpg.html)

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020010.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Muldoon3/media/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020010.jpg.html)

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020007.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Muldoon3/media/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020007.jpg.html)


(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020013.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Muldoon3/media/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020013.jpg.html)

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020001.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Muldoon3/media/Renaissance%20and%20Donegal%2006%202014/P1020001.jpg.html)
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB: 2021-22 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 03, 2022, 06:46:49 AM
I finally made it back to Renaissance as part of the 2021-22 Winter Tour. I must say the course is much more enjoyable on a fine winter day than in high summer if only due to the rough being a more reasonable penalty at this time of year. Trees have been removed, some for the good and others not so much. I guess the goal is to make Renaissance look more linksy. I did notice the start of the 7th was shifted quite a bit to the left and pinched in, presumably to throttle flat bellies. In any case, the hole does look very different today. Please see the significantly updated tour.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58937.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58937.0.html)

2021-22 Winter Tour Previous Stops

Royal Porthcawl
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45933.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45933.0.html)

Seaton Carew New
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70404.msg1693517.html#msg1693517 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70404.msg1693517.html#msg1693517)

Cleeve Hill
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html)

Minch Old
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.75.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.75.html)

Notts
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html)

Charnwood Forest
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70866.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70866.0.html)

Goswick
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64104.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64104.0.html)

Scheduled Tour Stops

Muirfield

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB: 2021-22 Winter Tour
Post by: Jeff Schley on April 03, 2022, 09:45:25 AM
Sean always added value to post to the group.  When is Muirfield scheduled? Also we are already in Spring! ;D
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB: 2021-22 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 03, 2022, 11:01:55 AM
Sean always added value to post to the group.  When is Muirfield scheduled? Also we are already in Spring! ;D

Muirfield didn't feel much like spring... brrr.

Ciao
Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB: 2021-22 Winter Tour
Post by: archie_struthers on April 05, 2022, 11:09:30 PM
 8)




looks like fun

Title: Re: RENAISSANCE CLUB: 2021-22 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on March 26, 2024, 05:50:01 AM
The Winter Tour stopped by Renaissance again. Despite a 40mph wind I came away a bit more impressed the course. That said, with each visit I notice the long walks between greens and tees more and more. The 7th is totally bedded in now and I admit it looks good. I still wish some trees behind the green were kept. I don't know what these trees are called, but they are beautiful. There is one remaining on the right of the 8th. Anyway, I hope folks enjoy the updated tour.

Previous Stops on the 2023-24 Winter Tour

Cleeve Hill
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html)

Huntercombe
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html)

Minehead
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72699.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72699.0.html)

Westward Ho!
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66480.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66480.0.html)

Notts
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html)

Goswick
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64104.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64104.0.html)

Kilspindie
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66109.msg1581740.html#msg1581740 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66109.msg1581740.html#msg1581740)

Planned 2023-24 Winter Tour Stops

North Berwick
St Medans
Turnberry
Askernish
Benbecula
IoH
Traigh

Ciao