Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David Davis on April 22, 2014, 11:12:40 AM
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Was playing a course in NL last Friday called Hoge Kleij that has been through a heavy renovation by our own Frank Pont in recent years. I was really impressed with the massive tree removal that he managed to get the club to undertake. I now how tough that must of been. Yet I came up to a hole a short dog leg par 4. Hit my tee shot (one of the few) right up the middle and was very happy with it until I arrived at my ball to find in the middle of the fairway and right in front of the green this enormously huge tree. So I hit rescue club then gap wedge over the tree on the green. However, there was no way around this tree from the fairway. I guess it's a bit of an icon at the club and I'm sure they fought like hell to keep it there. But seriously, I wish I had taken a photo of this. I'm curious what others think. The course was way better than I had thought and the renovation by Frank were done very well, but this hole really made me cringe.
I was thinking today and I imagine this has been discussed before but can anyone think of or name courses that are great, or even good because of their trees?
Or does that even exist? In my opinion it doesn't and I can't outside of say Cypress Point's/Pebble Beaches Cypress Trees or perhaps Chambers Bay's lone tree.
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that was quick ;-)
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Pine Valley seems to have a lot of trees.
Oak Hill seems proud of their trees.
Harbour Town makes use of their trees.
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It all depends on one's POV and preferences. Parkland courses would be something completely different if it were not for the trees. Sahalee CC is defined by its Douglas Firs and cedars. Ditto for Harbour Town without its pines and some oaks (?), Colonial and its giant pecan and oaks. Medinah #3? Southern Hills?
The occasional specimen tree down the fairway in the line of play is fine with me as is a centerline bunker where I want to hit my ball. However, I don't like trees immediately off the tee greatly restricting the line of play (e.g. the chute on 18 from the back tees at ANGC).
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There are a few estate courses in Ireland that are improved because of their ancient specimen trees.
What many of the developers (and some architects) failed to realise was that these trees were planted 150-200 years ago as part of a larger landscaping plan… So proceeded to “complement” them with a bunch of non-indigenous tree planting and reduce the overall effect.
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It all depends on one's POV and preferences. Parkland courses would be something completely different if it were not for the trees. Sahalee CC is defined by its Douglas Firs and cedars. Ditto for Harbour Town without its pines and some oaks (?), Colonial and its giant pecan and oaks. Medinah #3? Southern Hills?
The occasional specimen tree down the fairway in the line of play is fine with me as is a centerline bunker where I want to hit my ball. However, I don't like trees immediately off the tee greatly restricting the line of play (e.g. the chute on 18 from the back tees at ANGC).
Lou, I've heard many arguments for trees impeding the tee shots as well, though that doesn't mean they are all valid. ie. I think it's great as it forced you to hit a draw/fade/lower shot etc. In terms of having a 50 ft+ very wide tree impeding your approach no matter where you are it seems a bit strange to me. Normally if you see a centerline tree you have to choose which side to play around it or shape the ball accordingly if you can. In my case, you aim right at it and know you will miss by a mile. This tree doesn't leave those options.
I had a lovely 27 holes at Sahalee last year, but yeah, I'm honestly waiting for Texas Chainsaw Massacre part 3 - in Washington to happen there and yes I think the course would be better with some healthy cutting.
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It is arguable that the corridor book ending #s 4 & 6 at Worlington are a boon for the design. The trees bring trouble in the middle of the shared fairway into play, but it doesn't feel cramped. There is also a very good tree down the right of #1. I can't think of trees that drag the course down - very rare in my experience. Whether or not these trees make the course great is as much anyone's guess as mine.
I recall someone posting pix of a cool Danish course which seemed to be ehanced by its trees. Knole Park too may be better for the trees.
Ciao
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There are trees on Caledonia that are right in front of the tee box that you have to hit under and through ( like a chute) off the tee.
I have a picture at home that I can
Post unless someone else has it.
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The 11th at Hoge Kleij.
The yellow line ends about 230 yards from the tee. At that spot on the right side of the fairway, it's around 135 to the center of the green. While it's possible to avoid carrying the tree if you hit it up the right side, you will have to control your distance off the tee pretty well to do so.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11aerial_zps4d875504.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/jmayhugh/media/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11aerial_zps4d875504.jpg.html)
From the center of the fairway
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11treeleft_zpsa1d42c41.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/jmayhugh/media/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11treeleft_zpsa1d42c41.jpg.html)
And from the right side near the end of the fairway
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11tree_zps8485f314.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/jmayhugh/media/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11tree_zps8485f314.jpg.html)
I liked the green site. A run-up approach to avoid the tree has to contend with the large bunker front left, while a carry is made riskier by the drop off if you're a bit long.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11green_zps2dc96e07.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/jmayhugh/media/hoge%20kleij/hogekleij11green_zps2dc96e07.jpg.html)
I don't love the hole, but one like it every now and then doesn't bother me. I cannot think of any courses made great by having trees, though. Sean makes a good point about the trees at Mildenhall, but that's a minor part of what makes the course so good.
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John,
Thanks, that's the one. I was a little closer. What does every one think of that. The photo you made from the right, well as you said you would have to first know the course pretty well and secondly be left with about 20 yards max in length to judge to be able to utilize that.
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Ah, the simpler days of a bygone era, before anyone understood the principles of golf course architecture or felt the need to have a design that honoured/reflected the site in its natural state; and when a local yokel like Mr. Crump could just stumble onto a heavily-treed piece of land and start building a golf course right then and there (without even first hiring a professional to raze every tree to the ground). What unbelievable naiviety back then -- a willful ignorance almost. Today, on the other hand, any architect worth his salt would know that the right thing to do with a site like Pine Valley is to bulldoze away every bit of vegetation right from the start, and then create a Scottish-style links course that really looks natural and windswept, and one that is so wide and forgiving that it just oozes strategic choices and options from every single pore. Now that is good thinking -- that is the modern way. Why leave a site looking anything like it originally did and in basically its natural state when you can so easily use modern technology and the genius of modern architects to change it completely and still make it seem natural? It's like that other course, Olympic-Lake, with all those uphills and downhills and sidehill lies, and with all that lush vegetation/trees (only there, after all, because of the naturally damp and mild climatic conditions of the region) -- oh, what a waste, for which we can only curse Mr. Watson. Can you even imagine what a good modern architect with an unlimited budget might have made of that site? We'd be calling it The Old Course-West or maybe The Sand Hills-North! And it too would have options!!
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The Rolls of Monmouth, especially the front-9, old alboretum style specimins. No tramlines of trees on each side of the fairways here, just occasional big individual trees which play like 'bunkers in the sky'.
atb
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What about somewhere like Sunningdale? I haven't played it in a while, but if memory serves, the trees there don't really affect play all that much. Rather they serve to maintain the seclusion of each hole, which I thought was a large part of the charm of the place. You feel like you're on your own golf course, because you pretty well never see other people out there on the course.
I'll probably get vilified for saying it, but I don't mind trees on the golf course. I don't think that they should be actually in the way of the normal playing of a hole, but if there are trees that you need to avoid from the tee, then avoid them. A course like Firestone would be quite devoid of watching interest if there were no trees on it. The playing corridors I'm sure feel quite claustrophobic, but I'm not convinced that's a bad thing necessarily.
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Sahalee without its trees would be a much lesser course. For the most part, there is sufficient breadth through the corridors. It is mostly an issue of scale which attacks the senses. I love the look and feel of the course. It requires attention to picking a target, and being methodical and resolute with the shot.
Lakewood CC in Dallas used to have a specimen oak on the middle-left side of the DLL, shortish #13 hole, maybe 90-100 yards short of green center. I played it a number of times with tee shots ranging from a long iron to a driver and always had a comfortable short iron/wedge shot into what was a good birdie opportunity. One day in a qualifier, I hit a perfect drive down the center and find myself way too close to the tree to go over with a sand wedge, and my punch under the limbs made contact. DB, my appreciation for the strategic value of the tree was gone with my score. Mike Beene tells me that the members, though none a prior U.S. president to merit naming the tree, hated it with equal passion.
Fortuitously I guess, in the midst of a renovation a few years back, an "act of God" made its removal "necessary". I saw the hole a couple weeks back and it looks rather naked. The course will reopen later this year after another renovation and I look forward to hitting my driver there again. My second shot will probably be a mid to short iron from well back, but in addition to now being distance challenged, getting much trajectory on the approach shot is a lot of work. I doubt that I'll miss the tree.
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David,
The good news is that no tree has the eternal life, especially now with more and more hefty thunderstorms in NL.
But seriously, I designed the hole to be played with the current oak staying. The key is to open the inside corner route more by cutting another 5-10 meters of trees in the inside corner - something that still remains to be done. That way you have a choice to hit a short tee shot and be left with a longer shot into the green over the left green side bunker, or you hit a long tee shot and have a shorter shot in to the green with no bunker in front.
What you do not want to do is hit a medium length tee shot and be stymied by the huge oak.
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"It's like that other course, Olympic-Lake, with all those uphills and downhills and sidehill lies, and with all that lush vegetation/trees (only there, after all, because of the naturally damp and mild climatic conditions of the region) -- oh, what a waste, for which we can only curse Mr. Watson."
PPallotta -
While I am a little unsure of the scope of your sarcasm, it should be noted that the vast majority of the trees on both the Lake and Ocean courses at the Olympic Club were not there in the 1920's when the courses were first built. Based on a number of aerial photos in the clubhouse, the property back then was actually "natural and windswept."
While it might look like the Lake Course was routed thru a forest, that is not the case. The course was there before the trees were planted.
DT
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Disclaimer- have not been on site.
Obviously ANGC can stand on its own without the trees, but some positives that they provide:
They're big- sense of scale is very good
Some are strategic- Hole 8 dictating a draw for those attempting to reach in 2, 13 dictating a draw off the tee (no offense lefties)
They help create an echo chamber- Supposedly the roars at ANGC are like no other. I'd imagine the trees have something to do with that
Would the winds swirl without them? Would amen corner be just as vexing and would the same challenge be offered without them?
For the most part ANGC has plenty of width even with the pines lining most corridors, and the "second shot golf course" moniker would also imply that trees do not encroach unfairly. But I think the trees help make Augusta great. Also, pine needles! You can't have the pine straw without pine trees!
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We have a somewhat different problem that is relevant to this discussion, if one ignores the great course qualification. Our course was designed on an old fruit orchard. The orchard was part of the original settlement in this part of the West (Idaho), an oasis in the middle of a sea of sagebrush. The pioneer who developed this property was a visionary who also developed the town and put in the irrigation that led to hundreds of square miles of cultivated farms. To attract settlers and give the monotonous sea of sagebrush a more civilized look, he planted thousands of fast growing Lombardy poplars throughout the area, mostly along roads and as windbreaks for farms.
When our course was designed, the architect used some of these specimen poplars (and some of the fruit trees) as integral features in the design, say as the inside turning point of a dogleg as an example. Although the course is mostly open and wide, these trees do have a prominent role in the strategy of play. Now, one hundred and thirty five years after they were planted, the trees are at the end of their useful shelf-life and we lose a few more after every big wind event. Mother Nature doing tree management. In certain places losing these trees dramatically alters the strategy of how the hole is played mostly by reducing the difficulty and precision required.
It has been a very graphic lesson in why not to incorporate trees as such an important feature in the design. These trees were healthy, mature, towering sentinels when the course was designed and built. But that was about forty years ago and evolution and change happens to all courses. Replacing strategic trees isn’t much of an option unless you are Pebble or Augusta because they won’t have the same impact for many years.
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Peter,, I suspect that old aerials of Pine Valley will show wider corridors. Indeed, the old dead guys we talk about were all brought up on links and generally disdained trees. Even though he did a a lot in both heathland and parkland settings, read what Colt (who had a lot to do with Pine Valley) wrote about trees.
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I just played with Lawrence Largent at Greenville Country Club. Our first day on the Riverside course (Silva) was fairly open with trees but NONE came in play, nor were hanging over fairways. Lots of fun run up shots and really great greens with multiple pinable positions.
The Chanticleer course (Trent Jones) was much more tree lined, but interestingly enough...very few came into play unless you missed the fairway by 15 yards or so. The course was quite difficult, but the trees complimented the land quite well. The usual turf conditions were hidden by mulch...but as treed' courses go, this is/was how it should be done in my view, although fewer seem to get the point across.
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I really like the trees at all the Bandon courses. Of the shore courses I appreciate the scarcity of them but with great presence when you actually stop to admire the Krumholtzes and the grove aspects. I especially miss the shore pine on 8 of Pacific Dunes that blew over years ago.
That bayonet tree on Old Mac is a stunner. Trails and Crossings have terrific Madrones and Manzanitas.
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David, SL - you're both probably right, in the particulars and in general. I took a broad swipe (apologies) but it is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, i.e. that half our discussions around here are about how past greens committees (short-sighted idiots, apparently, with no love for/understanding of great architecture) altered and ruined classic courses all over the country in one way or another; and the other half of our discussions are about how current greens committees (newly-enlightened beings, apparently, and consumed only with their love for great architecture) are busy restoring and improving and re-visioning dozens of classic courses all over the country, by chopping down trees and changing the shapes of the bunkers.
I just get uncomfortable when I see any consensus opinion/conventional wisdom coming together so quickly, especially in a case like this when I have no a priori reason for assuming that the nature/ethos/practices of "greens committees" have changed all that much in a hundred years. I understand the value of wide corridors (but I note: on treed sites) and I now know that Olympic-Lakes trees were planted post design (but I note: maybe like in those early pictures of Augusta, where you can see all the newly planted little trees just starting to grow and beginning to frame the vistas as, presumably, Mackenzie and Jones intended).
My point is just this: when at least around here the pendulm seems to have swung so quickly towards just ripping trees out by the hundreds in the service of 'great architecture', I feel like advising just a touch more caution and perhaps a slightly more measured approach; not every course is an Oakmont, and I'd bet that neither Colt nor Crump nor Watson etc would've ever questioned so adamently the presence/use of trees on a non-links site.
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Prairie Dunes is one my favorite courses, with one of its more memorable features being the many cottonwood trees dotted throughout. I wouldn't attribute its greatness specifically to the presence of the trees, but they do add a distinct flavor to the course, compared to some of the other great prairie links I've played.
The 12th, for example, employs the trees in the strategy of the hole. See Ran's review ... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/prairie-dunes/prairie-dunes-pg-iii/
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Prairie12t.jpg)
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Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.
+1
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I dislike trees on a golf course as much or more than most here, but I find it hard to imagine Belvedere GC having the same sense of place without them. As for trees in play from a strategic point of view for the average player, I'm yet to be convinced.
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I think this tree at Hoge Kleij is pretty sound strategically, it is just too large. Maybe cutting it back would solve all problems.
Ulrich
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I realize it sounds like I'm against trees on golf courses but I'm definitely not. Not at all. After all I'm from Oregon and we love us some trees there, we hug them too, or so I'm told. I just think they shouldn't take over courses completely. I really like trees on Bandon Trails for example, also on courses like Pumpkin Ridge, Baltusrol, Somerset Hills, West Sussex and many other courses I've played.
Lou, I really played very well at Sahalee with all those trees and on a couple occasions proved that trees are more air than bark somehow but it felt a bit strange to me and if I could hit the ball on the intended line off the tee like you can then I might not even mind when they completely take over a course.
I'd love to bring you to a course in The Netherlands called Nunspeet and see what you thought of that. I'm sure you would still be unfazed in your play but somehow that has always gone too far for me.
I will say one thing for certain, I'm against trees on links courses!
Back to my original statement that could be further clarified.
I would still argue that the great courses are great because of the great architecture, not because of the trees that happen to be there and while they can enhance the experience, create strategy and add to the challenge, the courses are not great because of the trees.
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Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.
How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?
Ciao
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My opinion is undoubtedly colored by the fact that I grew up on this course, but Wakonda Club in Des Moines, Iowa (where the US Amateur was held in the early '60's) has the most beautiful trees I have ever seen on a golf course. Of course, anything can grow well in the good, rich Iowa soil, but the Wakonda trees--mainly oaks--are healthy, gorgeous and integral to the golf course.
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Disclaimer- have not been on site.
Obviously ANGC can stand on its own without the trees, but some positives that they provide:
But I think the trees help make Augusta great. Also, pine needles! You can't have the pine straw without pine trees!
Alex,
What is the big deal about pine straw? Do you think it is a hazard of some sort? Man, give me a clean pine straw lie any day over a random lie in the woods or heavy rough. I can make the ball move any way I need off pine straw...
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Disclaimer- have not been on site.
Obviously ANGC can stand on its own without the trees, but some positives that they provide:
But I think the trees help make Augusta great. Also, pine needles! You can't have the pine straw without pine trees!
Alex,
What is the big deal about pine straw? Do you think it is a hazard of some sort? Man, give me a clean pine straw lie any day over a random lie in the woods or heavy rough. I can make the ball move any way I need off pine straw...
It's iconic. I know it's not a big deal back east, but at least from a playability standpoint it creates more excitement. As you say there is better opportunity for recovery than heavy rough! Thanks for helping make my point!
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Prairie Dunes is one my favorite courses, with one of its more memorable features being the many cottonwood trees dotted throughout. I wouldn't attribute its greatness specifically to the presence of the trees, but they do add a distinct flavor to the course, compared to some of the other great prairie links I've played.
The 12th, for example, employs the trees in the strategy of the hole. See Ran's review ... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/prairie-dunes/prairie-dunes-pg-iii/
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Prairie12t.jpg)
OK, I may get some grief for this and I will concede this is a MAJOR nitpick of a truly great course that I have had the privlege to play but the hole pictured (12 if I remember correctly ?) may have been my least favorite because of the trees. The cottonwoods seemed out of place compared to the rest of the course to me.
My thought is that I would eliminate every tree on the left side of this hole. I think then the large tree on the right (which dominates play already) combined with a new opened up area of bunkers flanked by native grasses changes a very penal hole into a much more strategic one.
With the left trees removed there is an actual incentive to play close to the left bunkers and native area in order to have a less obstruced approach shot.
As it is, the trees encourage many players to lay well back off the teee (unless you are into a good wind and need driver). With some "breathing space" more driveres may be used but more importantly, the absolutely beautiful bunkers on the left become more visible and are more impactful on the hole and its strategy.
Just a thought.
Plus, removing the trees here doesn't change too much--it is still a demanding and relatively narrow (given the wind) driving course.
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Leaving aside location and impact on the hole, not all trees are created equal. In my opinion, cottonwoods have no place on a golf course. They are basically ugly and dirty. For the classic courses in the upper part of the country, nothing beats oaks!
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Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.
How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?
Ciao
They are a beautiful decor, never come into play, just as Colt liked it.
However, they do block some nice long outside views like at hole 8 and left of 16, and the view on the green from the tee at hole 9....
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Although Olympic was built witbout the trees it has only one fairway bunker so unless they were removed it had to designed with trees in mind.
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Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.
How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?
Ciao
They play an important part in its ambience and beauty. Two aspects that make the place so special. Remove them and it would not be the same place. The fact that they don't impact on the architecture is a bonus. The same goes for Sunningdale Old.
I hear you, but I don't think that is the same as saying it is great because of its trees. Of course, if the trees were removed it would be different. But would it not be great? Can't see it myself. And personally I think Sunningdale Old would be significantly better if there were a massive tree cull.
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Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.
How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?
Ciao
They play an important part in its ambience and beauty. Two aspects that make the place so special. Remove them and it would not be the same place. The fact that they don't impact on the architecture is a bonus. The same goes for Sunningdale Old.
I hear you, but I don't think that is the same as saying it is great because of its trees. Of course, if the trees were removed it would be different. But would it not be great? Can't see it myself. And personally I think Sunningdale Old would be significantly better if there were a massive tree cull.
Well, yeah - it's a pretty restrictive question I guess. I think the trees are fairly integral to the greatness of Swinley - not the architecture of course - but the overall package. Remove them and would it still be great? Well, it would not be the special place it is now. I struggle with the term "great" anyway...
I don't know Swinley but I would have thought that from all the Heathlands, St Georges Hill might be worst affected by mass tree removal... Because it was designed from the forest first of all and it was designed with a lot of large houses placed (and hidden well) just off some of the fairways.
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Swinley is an interesting case. Playing around the small wood is quite clever, yet there are some vistas which should be on offer now closed off by trees. I wouldn't be surprised if there are twice as many trees today than what Colt envisioned. I guess its also a matter of opinion if one likes the ridge above #4 practically barren or full of trees as is now the case. Another example such as #17, it would be grand if there were no trees, but as is a screen of trees work magnificently. #9 is also a case in point, the straightish line of trees down the right is unsightly imo. There are views that way which could be uncovered. Imagine also if when looking back from the 15th tee toward the holes on the far side of the course - the view if the trees were better managed should be oustanding. So I guess I agree with you in principle, trees help make the Swinley experience, but they also detract from what could be a better experience.
Ally
I think St Georges Hill is made better by the trees because its a housing estate course. They are managed exceptionally well though.
Ciao
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I was thinking today and I imagine this has been discussed before but can anyone think of or name courses that are great, or even good because of their trees?
David,
Presently, I can't think of any "courses" that are great because of their trees.
I think there are a good number of "holes" that are great because of a tree or trees
Or does that even exist?
If they do, their names escape me at the moment
Peter,
Crump did essentially what you attributed to modern day architects.
He essentially "bulldozed" or cleared the land at the very beginning.
That's why PV subsequently embarked upon a massive tree planting program.
John Mayhugh,
Thanks for the photos, they are worth a thousand words.
Essex Fells in NJ had a similar situation with a tree in the fairway years ago.
I know other clubs where a tree or trees has/have matured over the years and in doing so have transitioned from a strategic feature to an architectural and playing impediment.
The problem in many cases is that the tree/s has/have taken on a life of their own, a life detached from architectural sanity.
The test would seem to be, if you were building the course today, would you leave the tree in it's current location ?
At my home course there were five holes where a tree or two provided the strategic value to the holes
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;)
Mac , Pine Valleys's trees are more like a single organism that encircles the holes and property . There really are no specimen trees that impact shots hit from the fairways to the greens with the exception of an outgrowth on 11 if you drive it too far .
The only other tree that impacts play individually would be the small aiming pine tree on #4 tee shot at the corner of the large bunker.
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I think everyone here is forgetting about Blind Brook in Purchase, NY. I know little about the place, played only twice, but know 20+ members and all everyone talks about is the trees. The tress on the property are one of the most valuable collection of trees anywhere in the world. They protect them like no other. More insight from others is welcomed, but that HAS to be #1 on the list. I guess the title does say great courses, but its still pretty fun and good enough to be listed.
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I think that I shall never see a course that's great because of its trees.
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Let's see….my clubhouse driveways and plantings….and the trees in the park across the street.
Other than that, I got nothing.
Patrick Gertner
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI
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To me, the course that truly base's it's existence on trees more than any other it is Valderrama. Especially on the front nine the cork oaks are beyond integral to the course. I wouldn't call the course great, but definitely good. They have some of the most beautiful trees I have ever seen on a course, even if they are too close to the corridors. I would love to see the course after they have removed the cork, I imagine a sea of blood red trunks.
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Prairie Dunes is one my favorite courses, with one of its more memorable features being the many cottonwood trees dotted throughout. I wouldn't attribute its greatness specifically to the presence of the trees, but they do add a distinct flavor to the course, compared to some of the other great prairie links I've played.
The 12th, for example, employs the trees in the strategy of the hole. See Ran's review ... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/prairie-dunes/prairie-dunes-pg-iii/
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Prairie12t.jpg)
OK, I may get some grief for this and I will concede this is a MAJOR nitpick of a truly great course that I have had the privlege to play but the hole pictured (12 if I remember correctly ?) may have been my least favorite because of the trees. The cottonwoods seemed out of place compared to the rest of the course to me.
My thought is that I would eliminate every tree on the left side of this hole. I think then the large tree on the right (which dominates play already) combined with a new opened up area of bunkers flanked by native grasses changes a very penal hole into a much more strategic one.
With the left trees removed there is an actual incentive to play close to the left bunkers and native area in order to have a less obstruced approach shot.
As it is, the trees encourage many players to lay well back off the teee (unless you are into a good wind and need driver). With some "breathing space" more driveres may be used but more importantly, the absolutely beautiful bunkers on the left become more visible and are more impactful on the hole and its strategy.
Just a thought.
Plus, removing the trees here doesn't change too much--it is still a demanding and relatively narrow (given the wind) driving course.
I agree. The right trees are necessary because of the prevailing wind but the left ones can all go as far as I am concerned....I also think that more people would try to drive the green if the left trees were removed, which I think is fun.
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I remember great trees on the back nine to Pasitempo. I love big old Cypress trees in SF.
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I've returned from a long hiatus!
We've departed from talking about Harbour Town, but I do think it is a golf course that is made vastly better by its tree plantings. I was trying to think of why that was, and looking through my pictures, I think I reached a conclusion. Take this picture of the 9th as an example:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5024/13977688802_19f1608a02_c.jpg)
Note how the trees are maintained and how they grow. They are far more obtrusive for the golfer who hits the high ball (usually a better player) but have far less impact on the weaker golfer, who is less likely to get his golf ball to the height which the trees truly obstruct the golf shot. In that sense, it forces the better player not only to position himself better, but when in the wrong position, it makes him shape the ball. Meanwhile, the weaker golfer still faces these obstacles, but to a lesser extent. Rather than shaping the ball around the obstacles, he has to skirt them. Note in the picture above, the tree on the left obstructs a direct angle to the pin with a high ball flight, but not a lower one.
If the trees blew down in a hurricane, the course may still play well, but I truly feel that the tree plantings add character to the golf course.
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"It's like that other course, Olympic-Lake, with all those uphills and downhills and sidehill lies, and with all that lush vegetation/trees (only there, after all, because of the naturally damp and mild climatic conditions of the region) -- oh, what a waste, for which we can only curse Mr. Watson."
PPallotta -
While I am a little unsure of the scope of your sarcasm, it should be noted that the vast majority of the trees on both the Lake and Ocean courses at the Olympic Club were not there in the 1920's when the courses were first built. Based on a number of aerial photos in the clubhouse, the property back then was actually "natural and windswept."
While it might look like the Lake Course was routed thru a forest, that is not the case. The course was there before the trees were planted.
DT
Seems possible that Olympic Lake has resisted and defeated the bombers because of the trees. Imagine #5 without them. Trying to cut the corner is hazardous, just ask Lee Westwood. Without the trees on the corner, modern equipment and balls would allow players to cut the corner easily. You pretty much have to accept a long shot into the green, or take the risk and hit a perfect cut. Pull it off, great. But also remember the fairway cants right to left on the left to right dogleg. A par on #5 always feels good. Without the trees… meh.
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Here we have a perfectly reasonable smug GCA anti-tree thread. It has all the thinly-veiled clamoring you would expect when the "make every hole really
easy strategic!" crowd gets going. The original poster even disclosed his personal biases by explaining how he started thinking about how much he hates trees after he recently had to interface with one when he hit his perfect drive "right up the middle and was very happy with it until I arrived at my ball to find in the middle of the fairway and right in front of the green this enormously huge tree." Replace the word "tree" in that sentence with "bunker" and he gets laughed off the site. But we're talking about a tree, not a bunker, and trees being used to drive strategy and angles is bad architecture. In fact, trees are not even part of the architecture of a course at all, as proved by this golden line offered later:
"I would still argue that the great courses are great because of the great architecture, not because of the trees that happen to be there..."
We had a nice thread going, replete with photos backing up discussion about how all the armchair architects on this site could improve some of the best courses in the world if you just handed them a chainsaw and let them go out and fix things. And then some young dude from Oregon had to return from hiatus and ruin it all...
Connor Dougherty doesn't know this thread is a damn show. He thinks it's a damn fight. And his post is one of the most insightful and observant things I've read on this site in a long time.
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My vote goes to Eugene Country Club. The course would be good without the trees but all the different variety of trees including some old growth red woods and some other incredible specimens of trees greatly enhance the course IMO. There are people who go there specifically to see the trees and don't even play the course. I have never seen a course with such interesting trees that also help define the character of the course.
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Here we have a perfectly reasonable smug GCA anti-tree thread. It has all the thinly-veiled clamoring you would expect when the "make every hole really easy strategic!" crowd gets going. The original poster even disclosed his personal biases by explaining how he started thinking about how much he hates trees after he recently had to interface with one when he hit his perfect drive "right up the middle and was very happy with it until I arrived at my ball to find in the middle of the fairway and right in front of the green this enormously huge tree." Replace the word "tree" in that sentence with "bunker" and he gets laughed off the site. But we're talking about a tree, not a bunker, and trees being used to drive strategy and angles is bad architecture. In fact, trees are not even part of the architecture of a course at all, as proved by this golden line offered later:
"I would still argue that the great courses are great because of the great architecture, not because of the trees that happen to be there..."
We had a nice thread going, replete with photos backing up discussion about how all the armchair architects on this site could improve some of the best courses in the world if you just handed them a chainsaw and let them go out and fix things. And then some young dude from Oregon had to return from hiatus and ruin it all...
Connor Dougherty doesn't know this thread is a damn show. He thinks it's a damn fight. And his post is one of the most insightful and observant things I've read on this site in a long time.
Jason, because I disagree with Connor concerning trees doesn't make me smug. I am not sure why you are feeling all the hate, but perhaps a quick look in the mirror may provide a clue.
Ciao