Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ronald Montesano on April 20, 2014, 12:17:44 PM
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I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
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I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
Here's a slightly OT response from the Deep South. For years we overseeded our Bermuda greens with poa trivialis every fall so we wouldn't lose our greens to frost in the winter. The resulting horrible conditions during transition finally got the old guard to agree to my suggestion that we bring in a Mississippi State agronomist, who said no worries, you won't lose them. So we stopped overseeding. Luckily we had no problems during January's three day ice storm here! I sure don't miss that overseeding.
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I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.
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That's step one, Steve. If you get step two, I'll bow with great and humble deference.
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I've heard a lot of clubs in eastern MI have had some serious green issues after the thaw...thankfully we've been mostly fine in the western part of the state
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That's step one, Steve. If you get step two, I'll bow with great and humble deference.
Step two is cover the green with black sand, which is heated from the sun in an effort to melt the ice without damaging the turf.
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Cue: bow reflecting great and humble deference.
Where did you learn that trick, Bill? Is it common knowledge among grounds people?
Some area supers have warned golfers that, as the turf thaws deeper, soupy conditions may appear. We expect to go from firm to soft to firm this year, so deep is the frost in the turf.
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Ron,
Are you sure that wasn't milorganite?
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Are you sure that wasn't milorganite?
I had to look up Milorganite (about which I knew nothing) recently. Went to Wikipedia (the journalist's last refuge) and found this, which I thought worthy of sharing:
Milorganite is the trademark of a biosolids fertilizer produced by the Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District.[1] The District captures wastewater from the Milwaukee metropolitan area, including local industries. This water is then treated at the Jones Island Water Reclamation Facility in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with microbes to digest nutrients that are found in it. Cleaned water is then returned to Lake Michigan. The recycled product, high nitrogen fertilizer, is sold throughout the world, reduces the need for manufactured nutrients, and after more than 75 years is one of the largest and most continuous examples of such programs.[1][2][3][4]
History[edit]
Milorganite’s history 'began with Milwaukee’s goal to clean up its rivers and Lake Michigan." Rather than land filling sludge or microorganisms, they were used in a pioneering effort to make, distribute and sell fertilizer.[4] "It's production is among the largest recycling programs in the world."[3][5]
The Jones Island Plant was among the first sewage treatment plants in the United States to succeed in using the activated sludge treatment process.[6] "It was the first treatment facility to economically dispose of the recovered sludge by producing an organic fertilizer." In the early 1980s the plant needed extensive reworking, "this does not detract from its historic significance as a pioneering facility in the field of pollution control technology."[5] "The world’s first large scale wastewater treatment plant was constructed on Jones Island, near the shore of Lake Michigan."[7] It had the largest capacity of any plant in the world when constructed.[8] The 1925 plant has been designated as a Historic Civil Engineering Landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers.[6][9]
The name Milorganite is a concatenation of the phrase Milwaukee Organic Nitrogen, and was the result of a 1925 naming contest held in National Fertilizer Magazine. Raising taxes for public health was relatively controversial in the early 1900s. In 1911, reform minded socialists were elected on a platform calling for construction of a wastewater treatment plant to protect against water borne pathogens.[10][11] Experiments showed that heat dried activated sludge pellets "compared favorably with standard organic materials such as dried blood, tankage, fish scap, and cottonseed meal."[12] Sales to golf courses, turf farms and flower growers began in 1926.[13] Milorganite was popularized during the 1930s and 1940s before inorganic urea became available to homeowners after WWII. With the help of researchers in the College of Agriculture at the University of Wisconsin, the use of waste solids (i.e., activated sludge) as a source of fertilizer was first developed in the early 20th century.[2]
It goes on from there, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milorganite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milorganite).
I wonder if National Fertilizer magazine has a Website...
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I wonder if National Fertilizer magazine has a Website...
Yes, it's called "The Sludge Report". ;)
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Ron,
Are you sure that wasn't milorganite?
It may have been, Ian. The pro at Flamborough told me about their technique. Is milorganite black in color?
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Ron; Yes and its use in the manner describedis very old school in the mid west
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We use green, kiln dried sand here in the winter months for 1. Better sun absorption and 2. aesthetics. While Milorganite in black and will help with melting and warm up, you can use black sand as a much heavier rate and not have the smell. It's not uncommon for courses north of Orlando to use black sand in the winter months on their ultradwafts greens. TPC Sawgrass does.
I know courses that in the "recovery mode" using green and black sand. With the up and down, late spring weather they've been having, and having to topdress seedlings, it's makes perfect sense.
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I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.
Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada? I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards.
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Cue: bow reflecting great and humble deference.
Where did you learn that trick, Bill? Is it common knowledge among grounds people?
Some area supers have warned golfers that, as the turf thaws deeper, soupy conditions may appear. We expect to go from firm to soft to firm this year, so deep is the frost in the turf.
Ron,
I just read what the Saucon Valley superintendent writes! :) I had never heard about it until our latest Grounds update, but that is what he did to our Grace Course greens. This is all "turfhead" stuff, way beyond my paygrade. But he had a concern with the smell of some cores that were pulled, as if the grass was dying, not just dormant.
I know that there is controversy in the field about whether or not you should attempt to remove snow and ice from greens. Some feel you should not, and risk doing more damage to the greens with the effort.
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I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.
Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada? I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards.
Set the aerifier at 1-2" and it wont hard it, just breaking the surface of the ice so it can be removed. Many Supt did it in in Detroit and Chicago this winter.
Bill-Rooney is a the man. One of the best Supts around.
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I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.
Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada? I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards.
Set the aerifier at 1-2" and it wont hard it, just breaking the surface of the ice so it can be removed. Many Supt did it in in Detroit and Chicago this winter.
Bill-Rooney is a the man. One of the best Supts around.
If they had 1-2" of ice on standing on their greens, I would think they have more important things to worry about like surface drainage?
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Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
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Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
I know that it isn't very helpful, short term, for green keepers, but long term, loosing poa isn't a bad thing. Replace it with something that can handle a little more stress and all are better off, and then stop growing poa.
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Golfweek has a related article about how ice cover has impacted greens in the north and midwest:
“We have documented 60 to 70 days of ice cover beneath a deep layer of snow on our golf courses across the region” Vavrek said. “Research has shown that injury to Poa annua is likely to occur under these conditions.”
Poa annua and bentgrass cover most putting surfaces in the north-central U.S. The problem is, Poa is a much weaker plant than bentgrass and lacks the ability to harden itself for winter. This inability of Poa to withstand ultra-low cold and ice cover leads to areas of damaged or dead turf on putting surfaces with high populations of Poa.
http://golfweek.com/news/2014/apr/19/golf-course-winter-kill-usga-ice-recovery-seminar/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2014/apr/19/golf-course-winter-kill-usga-ice-recovery-seminar/)
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Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
I know that it isn't very helpful, short term, for green keepers, but long term, loosing poa isn't a bad thing. Replace it with something that can handle a little more stress and all are better off, and then stop growing poa.
Unfortunately, as a Superintendent, this probably wouldn't be a reasonable answer at 90% of the clubs that are facing with this issue. Many clubs can afford to not be open and have grass. Most cannot close in the seasonal climate. Maybe a few of the higher end courses can bit the bullet, most need revenue.
It's a lot easier to say "manage for bentgrass" when you have a 3/4th population. Unfortunately, many of these courses are the other way around, 3/4th poa. It's much more than "stop growing poa." Many of our National Opens have been played on poa in the last 15 years, so there is a place for it. The most notorious surfaces in the games are poa. This is a once in 30 year issue?
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Tony, Does the sanding method protect from dehydration of the crowns? We experienced the loss of some poa to this issue. We're in central Ohio. Thanks, Dave
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an additional problem is that there are plenty of poa and other similar seeds in the ground which will germinate faster than the bent grass. thus managing to bent while a wonderful ideal can be quite difficult, or so I am told.
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Unfortunately Country Club of Scranton is having some serious issues... See link below.
http://www.ccscrantongreen.blogspot.com/
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Tony, Does the sanding method protect from dehydration of the crowns? We experienced the loss of some poa to this issue. We're in central Ohio. Thanks, Dave
David,
It certainly helps in many cases, but when poa is under ice as long as it was, its an uphill climb. Several courses that do topdress heavy going into winter had turf loss. My dad, in West Michigan topdresses heavy, and came out very clean. It's certainly helps with hydration and protecting the crowns.
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The badly damaged Poa areas run from Chicagoland to lower Michigan over to western PA and southern portions of Ontario.
Aerators work well but can do some damage if not done properly. I've come to the conclusion that sometimes doing nothing is better than scraping the green clear of snow and ice. I've clear greens to have the Poa dead anyway and I've done nothing and had it survive just fine. Its a crap shoot.
I am more in the boat of Joey here by promoting better surface drainage and promoting bentgrass. I have had less issues since having larger populations of bent.
Blake
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The badly damaged Poa areas run from Chicagoland to lower Michigan over to western PA and southern portions of Ontario.
Aerators work well but can do some damage if not done properly. I've come to the conclusion that sometimes doing nothing is better than scraping the green clear of snow and ice. I've clear greens to have the Poa dead anyway and I've done nothing and had it survive just fine. Its a crap shoot.
I am more in the boat of Joey here by promoting better surface drainage and promoting bentgrass. I have had less issues since having larger populations of bent.
Blake
Blake,
Even with the best surface drainage, which several of the clubs that had turf lost have, they still had issues. These types of weather events happen once in 30 years, similar to Bacteria Wilt. We learn from them, make adjustments and move one. Surface drainage, snow removal wasn't going to stop the impact that the ice had.
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In my experience a problem like this can occur when you get several inches snowfall on unfrozen ground which then partially thaws through the day to create slush and then refreezes to create solid ice often a couple of inches deep over unfrozen ground. The ice prevents air getting through causing moisture in the ground below to stagnate.
Some solutions to this problem are to either break the ice and remove it though this might cause quite a bit of damage
or break the ice each time it forms and leave it which will often call for multiple repeats of the process
or removal of any snowfall on unfrozen ground until the ground freezes solid and leave it there after.
In my experience there is a big difference in the effect on the turf between the ground freezing before snowfall or afterwards.
Jon
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Tony,
We top dress very heavy before putting the covers on. Unfortunately, if you have poor surface drainage your in the hands of the winter weather your are presented with. And this winter was the worst I've seen in years.
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Tony,
We top dress very heavy before putting the covers on. Unfortunately, if you have poor surface drainage your in the hands of the winter weather your are presented with. And this winter was the worst I've seen in years.
Correct. But I've seen photos of courses that topdress, heavy, clean off snow, cover, have good surface drainage and still got hammered. It not one specific thing, as is usually the case. All or nothing could have been done this winter and it may not have mattered.
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We interrupt this thread to bring you the gratitude of yardbirds who are not superintendents, course builders or architects. This minutiae on what makes or breaks the opening of a course in the spring is beyond invaluable. Gracias.
Carry on...
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Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit. Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage. Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest. There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice. Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?
Jon,
Your post made sense.
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Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit. Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage. Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest. There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice. Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?
Jon,
Your post made sense.
From what I have gathered from colleagues, MSU and twitter, it's not one thing that was done or wasn't done. The west side of the state is in much better shape, but 2 hours east and 2 hours west have turf loss. Maybe because of lack of resources, the turf at the courses above went into winter with more of cushion- less double cutting, rolling, verticutting, higher height of cut, I don't know. That type of stress can/does cause poa. If those course CANT do those practices as often as they'd like, do they have more bentgrass? I don't know. I know Superintendents who promote bent over poa do not beat on the turf?
This is me just talking out load, I do not know. There are 50 reasons when they're having the issues they have. After all the speculation., Mother Nature still wins. She's undefeated. When you're growing a living, breathing thing and some things that it needs are not present.....well,....
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Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit. Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage. Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest. There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice. Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?
Jon,
Your post made sense.
From what I have gathered from colleagues, MSU and twitter, it's not one thing that was done or wasn't done. The west side of the state is in much better shape, but 2 hours east and 2 hours west have turf loss. Maybe because of lack of resources, the turf at the courses above went into winter with more of cushion- less double cutting, rolling, verticutting, higher height of cut, I don't know. That type of stress can/does cause poa. If those course CANT do those practices as often as they'd like, do they have more bentgrass? I don't know. I know Superintendents who promote bent over poa do not beat on the turf?
This is me just talking out load, I do not know. There are 50 reasons when they're having the issues they have. After all the speculation., Mother Nature still wins. She's undefeated. When you're growing a living, breathing thing and some things that it needs are not present.....well,....
If, by the west side of the state, you mean lower Michigan, there is a huge difference between the two. The lake changes everything, and can drop two feet of snow on frozen ground on the western side, but nothing on the eastern side. Maybe it doesn't mean a thing but maybe it does.
Also, I agree with BCowan, babying the poa is also a problem. If you do not encourage the agrostis, you are encouraging poa. Sure, Pebble Beach can grow 100% poa, but they have ideal conditions as well as an unlimited budget.
On another note, like you said Tony and Steve, it is a crap shoot. You could do nothing and be successful, or perforate the ice (new to me) and remove it and still loose turf. knowing your own course and what works in your climate is critical.
For me, the most important is to properly encourage bentgrass and it's root growth. A shallow plant like poa isn't going to survive a 30 year climate phenomena. If it is only occurring every thirty years, that gives me, as a greens keeper no solace. What does is pushing the turf stand in the right direction to survive said phenomena.
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Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit. Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage. Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest. There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice. Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?
Jon,
Your post made sense.
From what I have gathered from colleagues, MSU and twitter, it's not one thing that was done or wasn't done. The west side of the state is in much better shape, but 2 hours east and 2 hours west have turf loss. Maybe because of lack of resources, the turf at the courses above went into winter with more of cushion- less double cutting, rolling, verticutting, higher height of cut, I don't know. That type of stress can/does cause poa. If those course CANT do those practices as often as they'd like, do they have more bentgrass? I don't know. I know Superintendents who promote bent over poa do not beat on the turf?
This is me just talking out load, I do not know. There are 50 reasons when they're having the issues they have. After all the speculation., Mother Nature still wins. She's undefeated. When you're growing a living, breathing thing and some things that it needs are not present.....well,....
If, by the west side of the state, you mean lower Michigan, there is a huge difference between the two. The lake changes everything, and can drop two feet of snow on frozen ground on the western side, but nothing on the eastern side. Maybe it doesn't mean a thing but maybe it does.
Also, I agree with BCowan, babying the poa is also a problem. If you do not encourage the agrostis, you are encouraging poa. Sure, Pebble Beach can grow 100% poa, but they have ideal conditions as well as an unlimited budget.
On another note, like you said Tony and Steve, it is a crap shoot. You could do nothing and be successful, or perforate the ice (new to me) and remove it and still loose turf. knowing your own course and what works in your climate is critical.
For me, the most important is to properly encourage bentgrass and it's root growth. A shallow plant like poa isn't going to survive a 30 year climate phenomena. If it is only occurring every thirty years, that gives me, as a greens keeper no solace. What does is pushing the turf stand in the right direction to survive said phenomena.
Joey,
Lived on the west side of the state for 20+ years and I many cases, the lake makes a difference. Some of the same guys that cleared this year and had a lot of turf loss, have cleared for years and never had issues. We do what we know, what has been shown to work. Then Mother Nature chances course.
I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.
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I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.
Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada? I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards.
Here is a photo of ice removal from early March at Scarboro:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bh99C2-IYAAzdN4.jpg)
How effective will the aerator be?
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By the way my club, Scarboro, tweeted photos of most of the greens - they can be seen here (https://twitter.com/ScarboroGolf) (athough they will start to move down as Twitter. The club has had fabulous greens in recent years - I believe they are a mixture of poa and bent.
Here are a few of the shots:
5th green
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlwiS5DCMAAx5u4.jpg)
10th green (not so bad)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlwIxXcCAAAY8IX.jpg)
4th green (horrible)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlwA3FNCIAAhRIp.jpg)
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''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''
I'm only talking about SE Michigan. Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private). UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed. Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage. played those 2 both. I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize). Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure. It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage. Too many summer apps? The muni have poa and shade issues. Too much reliance on turf schools? How did keepers let that much ice build up?
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''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''
I'm only talking about SE Michigan. Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private). UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed. Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage. played those 2 both. I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize). Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure. It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage. Too many summer apps? The muni have poa and shade issues. Too much reliance on turf schools? How did keepers let that much ice build up?
A lot of courses don't have the staff or resources to remove snow and ice in the winter. And even the ones that do, had ice. Not sure what you mean regarding reliance on turf schools...
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''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''
I'm only talking about SE Michigan. Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private). UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed. Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage. played those 2 both. I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize). Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure. It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage. Too many summer apps? The muni have poa and shade issues. Too much reliance on turf schools? How did keepers let that much ice build up?
A lot of courses don't have the staff or resources to remove snow and ice in the winter. And even the ones that do, had ice. Not sure what you mean regarding reliance on turf schools...
the muni's have the smallest budgets, no damage to the ones i named. So are muni keepers more involved in removing ice then big budgeted clubs?
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By the way my club, Scarboro, tweeted photos of most of the greens - they can be seen here (https://twitter.com/ScarboroGolf) (athough they will start to move down as Twitter. The club has had fabulous greens in recent years - I believe they are a mixture of poa and bent.
Here are a few of the shots:
5th green
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlwiS5DCMAAx5u4.jpg)
10th green (not so bad)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlwIxXcCAAAY8IX.jpg)
4th green (horrible)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlwA3FNCIAAhRIp.jpg)
Wayne,
What is the prognosis at Scarboro for the spring? I know Burlington G&CC got absolutely destroyed and will have to re-sod all 18 greens. Will your club just go with a heavy overseeding program to get through or will more drastic measures need to be taken?
I love Scarboro - one of my favourite GTA clubs.
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Just heavy overseeding I beliveve. Apparently the brown areas on almost all greens are showing sings of green at the plant crown. However the weather and soil temps have not been high enough yet so it is still rather hard to tell.
I have heard the same thing regarding Burlington but we may have heard it from the same place - like from Rob Thompson for example.
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''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''
I'm only talking about SE Michigan. Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private). UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed. Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage. played those 2 both. I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize). Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure. It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage. Too many summer apps? The muni have poa and shade issues. Too much reliance on turf schools? How did keepers let that much ice build up?
A lot of courses don't have the staff or resources to remove snow and ice in the winter. And even the ones that do, had ice. Not sure what you mean regarding reliance on turf schools...
the muni's have the smallest budgets, no damage to the ones i named. So are muni keepers more involved in removing ice then big budgeted clubs?
I only know of private clubs doing ice/snow removal. I cannot speak on behalf of a muni course, but I have my guesses.
I follow the guys from Burlington on twitter and they are indeed sodding greens currently.
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Lake Ontario did her damage this year. Ancaster and a number of others have severe damage.
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Is Hamilton using sod or are they seeding their greens?
I would imagine sod would generate a quicker opening date vs using seed, is that accurate?
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After years of watching supers in Scandinavia grown-in their courses every spring, I have enormous respect for the folks in such climates (actually in every climate). Then there is the challenge of getting the overseeded surfaces to survive. A frost at the wrong time and all the seedlings are toast. Insert quarter, start again.
As Anthony has noted, poa takes the hardest hit. A couple weeks under ice and it's pretty much gone.
I recall reading Milorganite used to have lead in it, and it was taken out during the war years. It seemed to have the effect of supressing poa seed propagation; when the lead was taken out, poa became more prevalent.
As for snow, a buddy was working on a project and they needed to have it seeded and green by a certain date in the spring. He thought the company was going to lose money because they seeded so late, and then it snowed. After the snow melted (can't recall how long the cover lasted), the seed had germinated and started growning; the place had a shimmer of green throughout. The snow acted as insulation, trapping the warmth.
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Tony much sense in what you wrote,
having spent 6 years in Finland and Norway I know two things. Up to the early 1970's the older courses in the Oslo area rarely had issues in the spring but now as you say they seem to have to regrow each year. Secondly, of the few courses that had good greens in the spring in the early 1990's had green that went into the winter looking brown and dormant but greened up with the first warmth of spring where as most greens went into the winter looking green, came out brown and did not green up to much.
If you get your greens in a dormant state at the start of the winter you have a good chance of getting them out the other side.
The most successful example I have seen was a practice course outside Oslo who had emerald green greens even in October and had them in the same state by mid April. Of course they did use to roll them up and store them in the clubhouse through the winter ;D
Jon
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Tony much sense in what you wrote,
having spent 6 years in Finland and Norway I know two things. Up to the early 1970's the older courses in the Oslo area rarely had issues in the spring but now as you say they seem to have to regrow each year. Secondly, of the few courses that had good greens in the spring in the early 1990's had green that went into the winter looking brown and dormant but greened up with the first warmth of spring where as most greens went into the winter looking green, came out brown and did not green up to much.
If you get your greens in a dormant state at the start of the winter you have a good chance of getting them out the other side.
The most successful example I have seen was a practice course outside Oslo who had emerald green greens even in October and had them in the same state by mid April. Of course they did use to roll them up and store them in the clubhouse through the winter ;D
Jon
I look at the photos above and think a lot of Scandinavian supers would love to have that much grass cover!
This is getting a little off topic, but the courses in Germany are limited in their ability to spray and it seems the courses that have a practice of staying leaner and in the process are doing their best to propagate bent and starve out poa come through the winters with less snow mold.
This winter was a pretty mild one with little snow mold, but last year the courses took a real beating. What's interesting is the former superintendent at Falkenstein Norbert Lischka (now a consultant) had left Falkenstein with all greens (and everything else) in tip-top, awesome shape. Then there was a new practice green which they used washed-sod instead of seeding (I know he was 100% for seeding)... that green got hammered by mold. Whereas all the other greens were lean (low N inputs), no thatch and had healthy soil, washed sod has to be held together in some manner when the soils are washed away, and thatch helps keep the sod whole (I'll stand corrected if someone can explain otherwise) ... which could explain its poor performance.
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I'm hearing a few western NY places are in tough shape - not Oak Hill though.
Our little 9 holer Champion Hills - came through with flying colors thanks to our phenomenal super Erin Lyons.
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Joey,
Lived on the west side of the state for 20+ years and I many cases, the lake makes a difference. Some of the same guys that cleared this year and had a lot of turf loss, have cleared for years and never had issues. We do what we know, what has been shown to work. Then Mother Nature chances course.
I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.
Isn't the answer to try and manage the greens to increase bent? Is the problem partially maintaining for color (water & N)?
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I know Burlington G&CC got absolutely destroyed and will have to re-sod all 18 greens. Will your club just go with a heavy overseeding program to get through or will more drastic measures need to be taken?
The available sod is now completely spoken for if you want 18 greens of the same turf.
Now it's a mixed bag of what's left at each grower.
It's believed that Greystone (built in 91 - the first project I worked on - and "was" bent) was the last 18 greens purchased.
It's carnage out there.
The good ones are cringe worthy, but so many more greens are dead.
I have one new set of greens to build this fall and may have three sets to build this year depending on emergency votes.
I've seen two very bad years in 25 around Toronto, but this one is by far the very worst.
In the very simplest of terms, all slow draining areas are 100% dead this year, regardless of winter treatment.
I feel for the superintendents because it has nothing to do with them.
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After years of watching supers in Scandinavia grown-in their courses every spring, I have enormous respect for the folks in such climates (actually in every climate). Then there is the challenge of getting the overseeded surfaces to survive. A frost at the wrong time and all the seedlings are toast. Insert quarter, start again.
I recall reading Milorganite used to have lead in it, and it was taken out during the war years. It seemed to have the effect of supressing poa seed propagation; when the lead was taken out, poa became more prevalent.
I'm not a chemist, but I can't imagine how you could take the lead out of an organic like Milorganite, a processed sewerage sludge.
But the compound lead arsenate, seperate from Milorganite, was widely used on golf course turf in the '50's and '60's. Apparently, it was effective in controlling Poa, fungi, and insects, a general cure-all, before it was banned. Pesticides based on toxic, heavy metal tend to put a hurt on the environment, I am told.
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I know Burlington G&CC got absolutely destroyed and will have to re-sod all 18 greens. Will your club just go with a heavy overseeding program to get through or will more drastic measures need to be taken?
The available sod is now completely spoken for if you want 18 greens of the same turf.
Now it's a mixed bag of what's left at each grower.
I have one new set of greens to build this fall and may have three sets to build this year depending on emergency votes.
I've seen two very bad years in 25 around Toronto, but this one is by far the very worst.
In the very simplest of terms, all slow draining areas are 100% dead this year, regardless of winter treatment.
I feel for the superintendents because it has nothing to do with them.
I feel for the golfers, because it has nothing to do with them, either.
It sounds like a great year for sod growers though. How did they get their turf through the winter?
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This is getting a little off topic, but the courses in Germany are limited in their ability to spray and it seems the courses that have a practice of staying leaner and in the process are doing their best to propagate bent and starve out poa come through the winters with less snow mold.
Here in Ontario cosmetic pesticides were banned a few years ago although I believe golf courses can still use some types of pesticides. But, obviously, that didn't help us.
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I've seen two very bad years in 25 around Toronto, but this one is by far the very worst.
Ian - what was the other bad year - was it about 7 years ago when a lot of the clubs also had major green issues?
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We use greens grade Milorganite...we use snowblowers...we use an aretor...and we use shovels.....come spring we do some re-seeding with bent where needed.
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Here are some photos of greens at St. George's here in Toronto:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5130/14004813301_e01b9d6f4a_z.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7271/14008434384_8dca0dbf84_z.jpg)
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Some pictures from my home course Whitevale. It's about 30 minutes from Wayne and Scarboro
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag180/stephenson16/6thGreenApril22_zps47371b3d.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/stephenson16/media/6thGreenApril22_zps47371b3d.jpg.html)
One of our greens that was built in 2004. It has been problematic since day one, but compared to the other greens now it's not that bad anymore.
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag180/stephenson16/8thGreenApril22_zps1b188dea.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/stephenson16/media/8thGreenApril22_zps1b188dea.jpg.html)
One of our original greens. Used to be one of the nicest to putt on.
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag180/stephenson16/9thGreenApril22_zps4e074b4a.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/stephenson16/media/9thGreenApril22_zps4e074b4a.jpg.html)
An original green that has been expanded at the back. That little bit of green was the expansion completed a couple of years ago with sod from Donalda.
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag180/stephenson16/image_zps69aa23a6.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/stephenson16/media/image_zps69aa23a6.jpg.html)
Sorry about the angle. One of our greens expanded in 2005. Looks like both newer and old turf are dead.
What surprised me is that with all the overseeding with bent (our sod from 2004/2005 may have been bent but can't remember) very little exists on the greens.
We're being told mid-June before all greens will be back in play. Course opening pushed to May 16th.
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@Paul - your photo links don't appear to work.
On the other hand Coppinwood, which is about 8 years old and is a little north of Whitevale is fine as they have no major issues. I guess the fact that the greens are new means much less Poa and they received less freezing rain/ice in December.
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Rob Thompson has a blog posting on this:
http://canadiangolfer.com/g4g/2014/04/25/ontario-courses-with-poa-greens-struggle-to-deal-with-cold-weather-carnage
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It is amazing what a few hundred miles can do in this. I feel very fortunate because in Minneapolis, courses came through the winter in as good of shape as I can ever remember. There is virtually zero winterkill at my club.
At a club near my home, there's a spot on a hole you can see from the road where it dies every year. The drainage is poor there and turf dies almost every year. Even that low spot is perfect.
We are very lucky. And I feel for those dealing with this.
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It is amazing what a few hundred miles can do in this. I feel very fortunate because in Minneapolis, courses came through the winter in as good of shape as I can ever remember. There is virtually zero winterkill at my club.
At a club near my home, there's a spot on a hole you can see from the road where it dies every year. The drainage is poor there and turf dies almost every year. Even that low spot is perfect.
We are very lucky. And I feel for those dealing with this.
Similar to what's reported in my corner of Wisconsin -- good solid snow cover helps a lot with this, and we had plenty in these parts. A generally awful spring for golfing so far, however, with lots of rain and cold temps.
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@Paul - your photo links don't appear to work.
On the other hand Coppinwood, which is about 8 years old and is a little north of Whitevale is fine as they have no major issues. I guess the fact that the greens are new means much less Poa and they received less freezing rain/ice in December.
Sorry Wayne. Fixed