Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jaeger Kovich on April 19, 2014, 08:26:59 PM
-
I have only played it once, but it seems like the course's influence and place on the architectural timeline has outlasted its greatness in design. I struggled to embrace the narrowness, until totally committing to try and bend shots around the trees. The putting surfaces are mostly flat and forgettable. The course is all about navigating to the green, as its mostly automatic 2-putt. The aesthetics is mostly bizarre looking hazards and ugly vacation homes, until the last 3 holes where it gets quite nice.
It is still a pretty interesting golf course, just not one of Pete Dye's best.
-
never liked it due to lack of variety and abysmal pace of play.
Quite a few good holes, just too many similar.
Long Cove much better while having a few of the same good qualities-far more variety
-
What's a bazaar hazard? Do you have to haggle your way out of it or something? ;D
-
I like it. Very sentimental fan of its many charms.
-
What's a bazaar hazard? Do you have to haggle your way out of it or something? ;D
HA! Thats a pretty funny slip
-
Count me as someone who likes it.
I enjoyed the routing, the par 3s, the short par 4s, and 15-18. It can be tight, but I think that is offset by the fact that you'll be hitting less than driver on many holes.
I'd be happy to go back.
-
I would definitely like to play Harbor Town again, but its probably not worth it at the full peak-season rate I don't think.
-
Played it three times and loved it. I thought it had a very good mix of holes, yes 16 to 18 are memorable but there are others that are good. I remember hitting a nice drive on nine and had a difficult second to a tightly tucked hole location. I would go back in a heartbeat.
-
I'm on the like it list. Every feature does exactly what it was intended without appearing contrived. It makes you strategize and plot, but gives you an opportunity to recover from mis hits most of the time instead of outright penalizing. It's is a very well done example of Dye's design philosophy, which is why it will remain so highly regarded as course design evolves.
-
I was actually thinking today that the par 3s are some of Dye's best. 18 is unique, as are 13 and 16. 8 is a terrific hole. Crooked Stick and Harbor Town were the first two very good courses I played. Harbor Town has aged much better in my memory.
-
never liked it due to lack of variety and abysmal pace of play.
Jeff,
Then, Pebble Beach and Spyglass Hill must not be high on your list.
I don't see what pace of play has to do with architectural merit.
Please explain that to us
Quite a few good holes, just too many similar.
Long Cove much better while having a few of the same good qualities-far more variety
-
I have only played it once, but it seems like the course's influence and place on the architectural timeline has outlasted its greatness in design. I struggled to embrace the narrowness, until totally committing to try and bend shots around the trees. The putting surfaces are mostly flat and forgettable. The course is all about navigating to the green, as its mostly automatic 2-putt. The aesthetics is mostly bizarre looking hazards and ugly vacation homes, until the last 3 holes where it gets quite nice.
It is still a pretty interesting golf course, just not one of Pete Dye's best.
Jaeger,
Harbor Town represents some revolutionary design concepts for Pete Dye and GCA in America circa the late 1960's.
One has to view the design of Harbor Town from the perspective of what golf course design was like in the U.S. In the late 1960's.
You've played it more than me, but is a portion of the narrowness due to growth of the trees over 45 years ?
Ditto the houses.
Do we devalue LACC North because of the homes flanking the holes, even if one of them is one of my favorites ?
Do we devalue WFW, Merion and others due to the adjacent homes ?
Do you feel that the course is lacking in architectural merit or just overrated ?
-
I really like certain aspects of it - the need to shape shots after errant drives, the 3s, the last few holes - but for some reason I can't wrap my head around paying full freight to play it again.
My favorite feature is the scar bunker on 17, so small you can only play out one direction, regardless where the flag is.
I was also surprised to hear Nance say yesterday that at 75 yards, the 18th is the widest on Tour.
Overall I never though it was a tight course from an OB or hazard perspective. I don't think I lost many balls. It's the oaks and the bunkers that get you, in good ways. And I though the houses were far enough back I rarely noticed them.
-
Personally, I am morally outraged 18 doesn't finish at the clubhouse.
-
I have only played it once, but it seems like the course's influence and place on the architectural timeline has outlasted its greatness in design. I struggled to embrace the narrowness, until totally committing to try and bend shots around the trees. The putting surfaces are mostly flat and forgettable. The course is all about navigating to the green, as its mostly automatic 2-putt. The aesthetics is mostly bizarre looking hazards and ugly vacation homes, until the last 3 holes where it gets quite nice.
It is still a pretty interesting golf course, just not one of Pete Dye's best.
Jaeger,
Harbor Town represents some revolutionary design concepts for Pete Dye and GCA in America circa the late 1960's.
One has to view the design of Harbor Town from the perspective of what golf course design was like in the U.S. In the late 1960's.
You've played it more than me, but is a portion of the narrowness due to growth of the trees over 45 years ?
Ditto the houses.
Do we devalue LACC North because of the homes flanking the holes, even if one of them is one of my favorites ?
Do we devalue WFW, Merion and others due to the adjacent homes ?
Do you feel that the course is lacking in architectural merit or just overrated ?
I don't feel it lacks architectural merit, but it may currently be a little overrated because of its fame and historical importance.
There is no doubt it was/is a hugely important piece in the evolution of modern golf courses. That said, it was never meant to function as an extremely busy resort the way it does currently. Nobody ever thought it would become so popular and demand so many rounds per year, thus the size of the greens and narrowness from ever growing tree canopy do not allow it to function as well as many visitors hope.
The thing about the houses is, they are virtually all the same. All the houses are of the same style and era. Basically generic, pre-fab stuff that is everywhere in the area. The difference between that and LACC, WF or St. George's Hill couldn't be further.
-
Harbour Town Lessons in Golf Course Architecture
1. The routing of a golf course, pacing, gradually developing and creating excitement at the finish. It reminds me of Frank Lloyd Wright’s concept of ‘compress and release’. Low entrance doorway into a large living room. The first 15 - 1/2 golf holes at Harbour Town are compressed into the trees with the final 2 -1/2 holes ‘released’ out with long views of Calibogue Sound - Extraordinary.
2. The importance of scale in the golf course features. The small greens fit the small scale of the site. The smallish greens also allow the green-side bunkers which weave in and out of trees to fit the green scale (Big greens would make the bunkers look too small and out of proportion).
3. The development of the first waste bunker on golf hole #16 , although has been changed into a formal bunker.
4. The great variety of various size and shapes of bunkers to provide unique qualities to each golf hole, from extremely small pot bunkers to extremely large waste bunkers and everything between.
5. The best set of par 3’s on any golf course, as judged by many.
More later if interested, got to go.
-
Watching on television, it is so different from what you see every other week on the PGA Tour.
The one time I played it, I found it very enjoyable. The fairways were wider than I expected but the size of the trees meant that just because you were in the fairway there was no guarantee you could hit the green.
It must be the most enjoyable walk around a course filled with housing that exists.
-
I like Harbor Town.
The tee shot is very important there, no doubt.
Golfers who don't hit it straight off the tee are in for no fun.
The holes are all memorable and the finish out by the water is fantastic....very similar to PB in that although you finish at the resort you don't finish near the first tee.
Speed of play can be an issue here as it is a resort with folks paying $300 and then playing their buddies for an important $5 Nassau.
The scale is small when compared to the likes of other famous private courses...yet when you take in the small scale and the amount of other things at the resort going on around you, it's a fun walk.
The stretch from 9-18 is fantastic is most memorable to me with each hole asking you to hit a shot and not just bombing a driver out there.
-
Out of curiosity, what would it cost a visitor to play 18-holes at Harbor Town?
atb
-
Harbour Town is a treasure. It is cool because it is different than everything else down there. The greens are so small you have to be good with your wedge in order to score. Definitely helps having that world class finish from 16-18. Also has one the coolest sets of par 3's I know. I would include 8 in that marvelous stretch, Gray. And those vacation homes mentioned in the o.p. I'm happy just fine with them. Great memories. The folks out on their back porches are surely enjoying their Easter Sunday. Fewer places in the world of golf I would rather be than today at Harbour Town Golf Links. Happy Easter.
-
I seem to prefer Dye's other 2 courses in the Low Country better. In 3 different decades he built Harbor Town (69), Long Cove (80's) and Kiawah Ocean (90's). I think his work in the area improved each time... Although Kiawah is clearly the best location, but still flat and with plenty of challenges.
-
I think its definitely in the consideration for top 100 US. GOLF actually has it on their top 100 world which might be a stretch. Happy Easter to you too Eric and everyone else! The weather seems to be turning for the better across the country too.
-
I seem to prefer Dye's other 2 courses in the Low Country better. In 3 different decades he built Harbor Town (69) Resort, Long Cove (80's) Private and Kiawah Ocean (90's) Ocean Front. I think his work in the area improved each time... Although Kiawah is clearly the best location, but still flat and with plenty of challenges.
no coincidence
-
1. The routing of a golf course, pacing, gradually developing and creating excitement at the finish. It reminds me of Frank Lloyd Wright’s concept of ‘compress and release’. Low entrance doorway into a large living room. The first 15 - 1/2 golf holes at Harbour Town are compressed into the trees with the final 2 -1/2 holes ‘released’ out with long views of Calibogue Sound - Extraordinary.
Except for "finishing on the water," which most architects would have done, I don't think this is so much the routing, as how the holes were developed based on the routing. The property is not inherently dramatic, so where the holes become more dramatic [the par-3's, 9, 13] it is a function of design and construction rather than routing.
P.S. It was not Mr. Dye who did the routing, but George Cobb, as Pete credits in his book.
-
Out of curiosity, what would it cost a visitor to play 18-holes at Harbor Town?
atb
Tomorrow's rate would be $292.40, fluctuates by season.
-
1. The routing of a golf course, pacing, gradually developing and creating excitement at the finish. It reminds me of Frank Lloyd Wright’s concept of ‘compress and release’. Low entrance doorway into a large living room. The first 15 - 1/2 golf holes at Harbour Town are compressed into the trees with the final 2 -1/2 holes ‘released’ out with long views of Calibogue Sound - Extraordinary.
Except for "finishing on the water," which most architects would have done, I don't think this is so much the routing, as how the holes were developed based on the routing. The property is not inherently dramatic, so where the holes become more dramatic [the par-3's, 9, 13] it is a function of design and construction rather than routing.
P.S. It was not Mr. Dye who did the routing, but George Cobb, as Pete credits in his book.
+1
-
Out of curiosity, what would it cost a visitor to play 18-holes at Harbor Town?
atb
Tomorrow's rate would be $292.40, fluctuates by season.
Thanks for this.
No slight intended, but it's amazing how prices/demand/etc varies in different parts of the world.
$292 equates to £174.
The price for 18-holes at TOC at StA tomorrow is............£160 (High Season).
atb
-
Out of curiosity, what would it cost a visitor to play 18-holes at Harbor Town?
atb
Tomorrow's rate would be $292.40, fluctuates by season.
Thanks for this.
No slight intended, but it's amazing how prices/demand/etc varies in different parts of the world.
$292 equates to £174.
The price for 18-holes at TOC at StA tomorrow is............£160 (High Season).
atb
What were the land acquisition costs at SA? What were the development costs at SA? Understand your point in terms of golf only but that is only a portion of the story.
In fairness Harbour Town's rates have ebbed and flowed with the economy more so than other top level golf resorts and they are now just approaching what the rate used to be during better times.
-
I have played Harbour Town far more often than any other world renowned golf course, probably close to 20 times. I have always thought it is something of an acquired taste, the first time or two I didn't think that much of it, but after repeated playings I started to understand the subtlety of the design far better.
The standard knocks have always been the pace of play, the conditioning, the price to play and the omnipresent housing element. However conditioning has improved quite a bit in recent years, and personally, I don't even notice the housing, so much attention needs to be paid to getting your ball into the proper position on the fairways. To me the housing just fades into the background, barely noticeable.
-
Sorry to disagree with Tom Doak, but although George Cobb routed the original golf course, Mr Dye rerouted the last 3 holes to finish on the water. This is why #18 does not finish at the clubhouse. It is important not to downplay this historic aspect of the routing.
-
Sorry to disagree with Tom Doak, but although George Cobb routed the original golf course, Mr Dye rerouted the last 3 holes to finish on the water. This is why #18 does not finish at the clubhouse. It is important not to downplay this historic aspect of the routing.
Tim:
That's interesting, I didn't know it. I had read an interview with Pete a few years back where he talked about how many other people had a hand in Harbour Town ... Nicklaus, Charles Price, and Alice all mentioned prominently ... but he gave credit to George Cobb for the routing then, and didn't mention the change.
The change is one of those things not every architect would get to do. If they'd kept George Cobb to build the course, they wouldn't have let him finish on the water. But when they got serious about trying to make it a premier course, Mr. Dye had leverage to get them to change it.
I am partial to Long Cove, for personal reasons, but I am still quite fond of Harbour Town. It's just enough different than other courses to deserve the attention it receives.
-
Tom,
What makes the vision of the routing for Harbour Town even more remarkable is I do not believe the majority of the fairway for #18 existed. It was all fill.
I agree with you about Long Cove. It is a tutorial on how to shape natural earth forms - so many great golf holes, fascinating details. My favorites are the last half of the front nine (#5 through #9).
-
I like Harbortown, not as much as Kuchar, but find it a fine test of shotmaking and patience. Love to see a 36 hole complex, 18 holes like this and 18 holes with no trees. Love the small greens, why not more courses like this?
-
I love Harbour Town. Everything that it is is done right. I like what Tim Liddy had to say about many of the reasons why it is so good.
Other reasons...
The knock is that it is tight. BUT all the underbrush has been cleared out, so finding your ball under the trees is no problem. Also, the trees are not overly dense AND the tree limbs are trimmed up high... so recovery shots are very achievable. Given these maintenance practices and the design, I'd say the maintenance meld for this courses design intent is perfect.
-
Matt Kuchar really likes Harbor Town. ;D
-
I didn't care for it. My guy group went there, 4 days of torture was our group memory, overly tight fairways, wet, wet,, buggy , we never returned
-
Count me as a like/love. I thoroughly enjoyed my round there. Pace of play was a non-issue when I was there. The course required some shotmaking, which I liked. Not much bomb-and-gouge going on there. You have to finesse it at that course, which I found quite enjoyable.
-
I really like, bordering on love, Harbor Town. It really does put the onus on the driver and being able to very unique shots all through the course. Like Mac said, it is tight, but very few holes have underbrush and most balls off the fairway are easy to find. The day we played it, it was very dry and firm, accentuating the challenge of keeping it in the right spot on the fairways.
The thing that still stands out to me, is that even though all the holes have a very similar feel and look, each one is completely unique and I can remember most of them off the top of my head.
-
Harbour Town is a perfect example of why the greatest courses need to be played and studied multiple times to appreciate why they are so special. Very very hard to properly judge and understand all the nuances of a great course with one or two visits. Harbour Town is a special design. I am a huge avocate of width but not every design has to reflect that design concept. That is the beauty of our game - multiple types of amazing playing grounds! Best example - Bobby Jones walked off The Old Course first time he played it. Ended up being his favorite golf course and even designed Augusta around its playing charactistics! Don't be quick to judge on one or two visits!!
-
I play somewhat frequently at a course a couple islands up the coast from Harbor Town. Basic lowcountry course, probably about a 3 on the Doak scale if you're being generous and don't mind shortness and scruffiness. But it's less than a mile from the house we stay in two or three times a year so I always play there.
Anyway, whenever I watch the Hertiage on TV it's a funny experience. The look and sounds of the place are identical and the course has the same general character (condos and houses in view constantly, if not in play) with tight routings through the pine and oak trees. But when I try to scale up the short little holiday course I'm familiar with to anything like Harbor Town yardages and factor in the greens being often interesting rather than flattish I honestly can't see ever going down there and paying hundreds of dollars to make triple bogeys.
If I woke up tomorrow as a 5-handicapper who knows where his irons shots will end up I think Harbor Town is a course I could really fall for. But as a short and crooked hitting bogey golfers if I'm going to play a course that tight and demanding directionally it'll need to be a short and easy version. Plus I can only imagine the pace of play challenges on a day when the tee sheet is full of double-digit handicappers (or worse) playing it for the first time. Yikes!
It's really one of the sad parts of being a un-skilled golfer. Intellectually I find a course like Harbor Town with small greens and twisty-turny routing fascinating. But I just can't work up enthusiasm for 18 holes of worrying more about not hitting a house or losing my fifteenth ball of the day than I am about the course and the shots required.
Final thought. I believe a course like the Ocean Course on nearby Kiawah Island is much more flexible in accommodating the weaker player than Harbor Town. By playing the appropriate (i.e 6,000 yard) tees at the Ocean Course I can have a blast. Not sure I've had a round with zero lost balls but I've done 18 holes with just one lost ball once and I've shot within spitting distance of my handicap a couple times. I doubt very much that even from, say, around 6,000 yards I'd ever be so lucky at Harbor Town. It looks like it has too few bailout directions off the tee and seems like every pull-hooked iron shot would be a ball lost at the least and likely property damage!
-
I like Harbortown, not as much as Kuchar, but find it a fine test of shotmaking and patience. Love to see a 36 hole complex, 18 holes like this and 18 holes with no trees. Love the small greens, why not more courses like this?
The small greens is the hard part if you want the course to be busy. Harbor Town's greens are not always in great shape because they get way more traffic than anticipated... In some ways its a great problem to have, but the place has become so popular that the small greens get worn out quicker than anyone imagined.
-
Don't get me wrong. Harbor Town is still a Top-100 course, but I think it will continue to move further down the lists as time goes on.
If I had to split 10 rounds between the 3 courses in the Hilton Head area I have seen it would probably break down as:
4 - Long Cove
3 - Chechessee Creek
3 - Harbor Town
-
I play somewhat frequently at a course a couple islands up the coast from Harbor Town. Basic lowcountry course, probably about a 3 on the Doak scale if you're being generous and don't mind shortness and scruffiness. But it's less than a mile from the house we stay in two or three times a year so I always play there.
Anyway, whenever I watch the Hertiage on TV it's a funny experience. The look and sounds of the place are identical and the course has the same general character (condos and houses in view constantly, if not in play) with tight routings through the pine and oak trees. But when I try to scale up the short little holiday course I'm familiar with to anything like Harbor Town yardages and factor in the greens being often interesting rather than flattish I honestly can't see ever going down there and paying hundreds of dollars to make triple bogeys.
If I woke up tomorrow as a 5-handicapper who knows where his irons shots will end up I think Harbor Town is a course I could really fall for. But as a short and crooked hitting bogey golfers if I'm going to play a course that tight and demanding directionally it'll need to be a short and easy version. Plus I can only imagine the pace of play challenges on a day when the tee sheet is full of double-digit handicappers (or worse) playing it for the first time. Yikes!
It's really one of the sad parts of being a un-skilled golfer. Intellectually I find a course like Harbor Town with small greens and twisty-turny routing fascinating. But I just can't work up enthusiasm for 18 holes of worrying more about not hitting a house or losing my fifteenth ball of the day than I am about the course and the shots required.
Final thought. I believe a course like the Ocean Course on nearby Kiawah Island is much more flexible in accommodating the weaker player than Harbor Town. By playing the appropriate (i.e 6,000 yard) tees at the Ocean Course I can have a blast. Not sure I've had a round with zero lost balls but I've done 18 holes with just one lost ball once and I've shot within spitting distance of my handicap a couple times. I doubt very much that even from, say, around 6,000 yards I'd ever be so lucky at Harbor Town. It looks like it has too few bailout directions off the tee and seems like every pull-hooked iron shot would be a ball lost at the least and likely property damage!
Is the course you speak of the Edisto Golf Course? If so, then yes, it seems identical in a lot of ways and that course is a lot of fun.
-
Yes, I meant to say it's the "Plantation" course at Edisto.
Sort of a 3/4 scale Harbor Town at 1/10 the price.
They regrassed with Paspalum a few years back and it has done wonders for the conditioning year-round.
-
Sorry to disagree with Tom Doak, but although George Cobb routed the original golf course, Mr Dye rerouted the last 3 holes to finish on the water. This is why #18 does not finish at the clubhouse. It is important not to downplay this historic aspect of the routing.
thanks Tim
-
Don't get me wrong. Harbor Town is still a Top-100 course, but I think it will continue to move further down the lists as time goes on.
Jaeger, I don't disagree with you...I'm guessing it should be 80s or 90s in the top-100, but it's just so different than anything currently being built or ever built for that matter, that I think it may be hard to predict what till happen to it. I think it's a course that can't be grouped into "en vogue" at the moment and I don't think it ever will be, so I could easily see it falling way out of the top-100 and I could just as easily see it climbing into the 40s or 50s.
-
Brent...
Certainly don't go out of your way to play it, if it doesn't motivate you to do so.
However, I do think you'd be surprised at home playable Harbour Town is. The maintenance of the course, in terms of making the course very playable, is quite good, as I mentioned before.
And I agree that Kiawah Ocean is VERY playable for any level of golfer...if they play to their game..and, of course, know their game. It is full of options.
-
I love Harbour Town. Everything that it is is done right. I like what Tim Liddy had to say about many of the reasons why it is so good.
Other reasons...
The knock is that it is tight. BUT all the underbrush has been cleared out, so finding your ball under the trees is no problem. Also, the trees are not overly dense AND the tree limbs are trimmed up high... so recovery shots are very achievable. Given these maintenance practices and the design, I'd say the maintenance meld for this courses design intent is perfect.
+1
I have played Harbour Town 6-8 times, and really do like it more each time I visit.
...But as a short and crooked hitting bogey golfers if I'm going to play a course that tight and demanding directionally it'll need to be a short and easy version...
...But I just can't work up enthusiasm for 18 holes of worrying more about not hitting a house or losing my fifteenth ball of the day than I am about the course and the shots required.
...I doubt very much that even from, say, around 6,000 yards I'd ever be so lucky at Harbor Town. It looks like it has too few bailout directions off the tee and seems like every pull-hooked iron shot would be a ball lost at the least and likely property damage!
I think you might be surprised. My Dad is an 18+ handicap and can't drive the ball much over 200yds. He has played Harbour Town with me a few times (despite his initial hesitation due to difficulty and cost), and from the ~6,200 yard tees has actually recorded some of his better scores - I believe he actually broke 90 there once (or at least came close). While I would not call it a very forgiving golf course, I would say that it is far more playable than it appears.
-
I like Harbor Town.