Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Mayhugh on April 17, 2014, 12:15:51 PM
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Earlier today I saw a tweet from George Waters, who had visited the 9 hole De Ullerberg course with Frank Pont. I didn't have a chance to see it when I was in Holland last year, deciding to wait until Frank's new course opens nearby.
I'm guessing not lots of roll on the heather fairways, but the setting looks idyllic. Should be a great time with hickories.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlbUPrkCAAAfatq.jpg)
George's tweet
https://twitter.com/gwatersgolf/status/456785778324942850/photo/1
Enjoy some of Frank's photos of the course
http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Holland/Ullerberg/index.html
Frank's new project at Ullerberg. Be sure to take a look at the links for routing the two different 9s (reversible course).
http://www.infinitevarietygolf.com/projects-ullerberg-1.html
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John,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I'll be in the Netherlands next month, perhaps I'll add it to my itinerary.
TK
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Good to see you playing in the sand, George.
(Interesting how GCA.com is first find for "Ullerberg 9 hole" at Google. But not that surprised.)
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Just had a look at the photo tour and Ullerberg look really great. I always liked the fact that at Alwoodley there was quite a bit of heather growing in the fairway but to have wall to wall heather fairways is really impressive. What a shame that golf/golfers are generally too narrow minded to tolerate such great and unusual ideas.
Jon
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Can't wait to see and hear more about Frank's reversible nines. This has to be one of the most interesting projects of the year.
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Jud,
we discussed reversible nines in a previous post where I also posted the text of Tom Simpsons 1930's article on the subject.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53521.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53521.0.html)
The Blue course
(http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/GCA%20pics/Ullerberg/Ullerberg%20Blue%20course%20small.jpg)
The Red course
(http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/GCA%20pics/Ullerberg/Ullerberg%20Red%20course%20small.jpg)
I think you are right the new Ullerberg project is quite interesting for a couple of reasons:
- First it will be a reversible 9 holes course. Since the site is too small for 18 holes, and there is no likely chance to expand to 18 ever, I thought of reviving Simpsons idea of the reversible course.
- Second it will be match play only. So you cannot play a qualifying card there, only matches. You pick the tee you want to play. Even thinking of making all of the course including sand through the green like at Friars Head.
- Third annual membership costs will be very low (few hundred dollars), but the catch is that a members play will be limited to 6 times per year. That way anybody can afford to be a member, and the club can accommodate up to almost 2000 members. Members can bring a guest for each of the times the come and play.
The brand name of the concept is The Match Play Club (TM), a website is in the making and more detailed information on the exact pricing and funding etc will be coming out later this year. Discussions are underway to build similar Match Play Clubs in France and the US near large Metropolitan areas.
Plan is to build the course in the pure sand that is on site with a small team of talented guys, this is one of the reasons George Waters and Jeff Stein have visited the site.
It will be interesting to see how the combination of 9 holes reversible and match play only will influence the design of greens, hazards and different tees. Would be interesting to get this groups thoughts on that subject.
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Frank:
A local architect in Minnesota, Joel Goldstrand, built a number of reversible 9 hole courses. I am not a fan of his effort at Fox Hollow but have not played the others. Fox Hollow's reversible nine is jarring to the eye and involves awkward walks to get from greens to tees. I suspect a good nine hole course would have been more enjoyable. I would guess reversible 9 hole courses are difficult to route and that constructing the green complexes so that they play well from different directions is a big challenge.
Goldstrand is not my favorite architect, so I would be interested in seeing the concept executed by another architect. Best of luck with the project.
Here are some links to aerial tours:
New Richmond: http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/newrichmondgclinks18/aerial.htm
Fox Hollow: (the site does not have a tour of the reversible nine but it is across the street from the one on this tour:
http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/foxhollowgc4/aerial.htm
Prairie Ridge
http://www.prairieridgegolf.com
Double Eagle
http://www.golfdoubleeagle.com
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A business model where members can only play six times a year seems odd.
Ulrich
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Just had a look at the photo tour and Ullerberg look really great. I always liked the fact that at Alwoodley there was quite a bit of heather growing in the fairway but to have wall to wall heather fairways is really impressive. What a shame that golf/golfers are generally too narrow minded to tolerate such great and unusual ideas.
Jon
Hmm, much as I like the quirk of the idea, is the end result not simply the same as on overly green, sticky fairways, i.e. the only method of play is an aerial one?
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What a shame that golf/golfers are generally too narrow minded to tolerate such great and unusual ideas.
Unusual, yes. Very cool for novelty value no doubt. But great? I adore heather but can someone define the playing characteristics of heather fairways? Call me a philistine but it doesn't look right to me.
Thanks for proving my point Brian :'(
Paul, I do not know for sure but certainly the heather in the fairways at Alwoodley was not detrimental to the playing characteristics.
Jon
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Well, the heather besides the fairways certainly was :)
Ulrich
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Brian,
maybe it is a bit unfair I do not know and I was not meaning to have a go specifically at you but you did prove my point. You are judging the book by the cover and not the story line or content. I also never said that Alwoodley's fairways looked like Ullaberg or visa versa but that they both have heather and at Alwoodley it certainly was not detrimental. To me it is more important how the playing surface actually plays and not what it looks like. It is also important to look at things in context so if the idea at Ullaberg was to take the land as it was and make the best of it then good on them. It could be that the ball sits up nicely most of the time and the high handicappers enjoy that, who knows.
Doesn't look right Brian! Why not walk in their shoes before you put them down is what I would suggest.
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Brian,
glad to hear the below response though it is at odds in my opinion with the first response you gave posted below.
Jon:
To me it is more important how the playing surface actually plays and not what it looks like
Allow me to clarify. What I meant was: it doesn't look like it would _play_ great. I think it _looks_ great. Very pretty. It looks like it would play similar to a really velcro like warm season grass. I am not putting anything down just commenting on what I observe from the pics and in response to your very bold statement (it was almost as if you were inviting an argument?)- would absolutely seek this place out in Holland so I'm afraid I don't fall into this imaginary category of short sighted people who would pass it by.
Call me a philistine but it doesn't look right to me.
Just to clarify, I do have an ideal type of course which is basically links playing F&F on smooth though not overly quick greens. I also prefer a slightly ragged at the edge look rather than the hyper manicured appearance. That being said I really like Ullaberg looking at the photos as it looks as though they had a heather heathland and rather than ploughing it up and planting a standard lolium/bent/fescue seed mix they have gone for a slower and kinder 'let it develop' approach which is often derided by many but makes for a diversity and interest missing in much modern golf.
I suspect with regular mowing the sward will present a most playable surface though even if it does not roll too well this does not make it bad but rather gives it a different challenge.
Jon
Jon
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Frank
Looks terrific on paper, would love to see what it would look like in reality.
What I like about the plan is the amount of diagonal carries from offset tees which I'm a big fan of. Do you think that was solely as a consequence of the reversible routing or is that something you try to incorporate anyway ? Whenever you see it on classic courses its usually because when they extended the hole at some point they couldn't take the tee any further back because of the proceeding green and therefore had to adopt an offset tee position.
Even as someone who is rubbish off the tee, I love that sort of challenge. Why do modern architects tend not incorporate this in their designs ?
Niall
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A business model where members can only play six times a year seems odd.
Ulrich
In Holland there is a very large group of golfers who only play 5-10 times a year. Many of them are not members, because the cost is too high. At the same time some of them miss belonging to a club. This model allows them to play at a high quality members club, without the time commitment and the associated costs.
The other group are members of a golf course that is close to their house but not that good, either because of poor design or because of poor sub soils (clay/peat). That is about 80% of the courses in Holland. For them joining a high quality course as a second club with limited play but also low fees is attractive.
This new course will be about an hour drive for most of the above mentioned golfers, a trip that seems OK for the 6 times a year you can play it under the current subscription. (obviously if you want to play it more you can buy multiple subscriptions).
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Guys,
the original heather golf course at Ullerberg is a product various historic and family driven circumstances:
- it was for a long time only used as the family golf course of the extended Waller family. Relatively little was done to maintain the course, and the course did not have very many rounds a year (in the hundreds per year would my guess). That is how heather fairways started and survived throughout the years. Any place where the traffic was or is more concentrated, even with these low volumes, the heather gives way to grass.
- the heather fairways are cut quite short (4-5 cm would be my guess) and the ball therefore sits up quite well and makes it very playable for all levels of players. The course does play long because there isn't a lot of roll on the fairways. The critique that it makes the golf more through the air and less on the ground therefore is a valid one in my perspective.
- the golf course therefore should be seen as a historic time piece that is a lot of fun to play occasionally, especially with hickories, but would be less fulfilling in my opinion to play every day.
- the course has been opened slightly to outside play for groups that value the historic background of the heather course.
- but mostly it remains the pride of the members of the Waller family who continue to play it on the weekends they stay at their estate at Ullerberg
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Frank,
In line with a few comments here, could you perhaps explain a little about the playing characteristics of heather fairways? As I said before, I wonder, beautiful though it may be, whether the only possible approach doesn't need to be an aerial one?
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I really hope this project comes off, because the reversible nine concept is fascinating. Could be a model for limited sites, of which we might get many in the future.
The business model "low fees, prestigious private club, 2000 members, limited play" seems to contradict itself, but hey, why not try something new? They just need to be smart enough to keep it reversible as well :)
Ulrich
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Frank
Looks terrific on paper, would love to see what it would look like in reality.
What I like about the plan is the amount of diagonal carries from offset tees which I'm a big fan of. Do you think that was solely as a consequence of the reversible routing or is that something you try to incorporate anyway ? Whenever you see it on classic courses its usually because when they extended the hole at some point they couldn't take the tee any further back because of the proceeding green and therefore had to adopt an offset tee position.
Even as someone who is rubbish off the tee, I love that sort of challenge. Why do modern architects tend not incorporate this in their designs ?
Niall
Niall,
The diagonal tee shots are a function of the reversible course, because you do not want to play over tees if hitting into the greens from the other side. However it also fits very well with classic courses, Simpson for one was always emphasising diagonal tee shots. I also think it adds an element of heroic design to the course, especially when the rough is mostly heather.....
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I really hope this project comes off, because the reversible nine concept is fascinating. Could be a model for limited sites, of which we might get many in the future.
The business model "low fees, prestigious private club, 2000 members, limited play" seems to contradict itself, but hey, why not try something new? They just need to be smart enough to keep it reversible as well :)
Ulrich
Ulrich,
I agree this could be a great model for limited sites around Metropolitan areas, where there are enough golfers, but not enough good courses/clubs that are affordable. If the Match Play concept catches on I think the chain could become quite large.
On the concept I do not see the contradiction. The concept will be one of people loving the game, a sports club, rather than a traditional snobby club. Those have a limited role in the future in my view, see the dwindeling numbers everywhere. That high quality and low prices can coincide is being proven by Swinkelsche in the Dutch market, which is doing very very well.
The number of 2000 members is the maximum number, I expect to see between 800 and 1200 members, breakeven is around 600 members.
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I see these contradictions:
Prestige - Low Cost. Those, who look for an exclusive experience, will not like it that anyone can afford to join.
Match play - anonymous membership. Hard to get to know members, if everyone is at the club no more than six times per year.
Occasional golfer - club. He's occasional, because he has little time for golf. Is he going to make extra time for club life?
Obviously, these contradictions can be overcome, but someone or something has to change for that. The occasional golfer either needs to make more time for his hobby, perhaps he will do that for a great club. Or the club needs to change to accommodate the "lone wolf" type of customer, who does not want any extra baggage on top of playing a round of golf, preferably by himself or with a buddy, who may not be a member.
But as I said, why not try something new? I would just suggest to the club to keep their model reversible. Otherwise they could get stuck with 400 members, who don't pay the bills, but like their position enough to resist changing back to a more traditional model.
Ulrich
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Ulrich,
The only issue you raise that's potentially valid IMO is the match play vs. anonymous member concept. They better not allow any USGA handicaps! It's not prestige at low cost. It's good golf at a fair price. Same goes for club life. They're not selling exclusivity and hobnobbing, they're selling fun golf with others who value such things. I like the 6 round thing. If you want to play 60 rounds you buy 10 of em.
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I like the 6 round thing. If you want to play 60 rounds you buy 10 of em.
That opens the door for the nomadic "lone wolf", who has no interest in a club, but likes to make the few rounds he can play every year count. He'll buy greenfees in packets of six, get a nice membership card for access elsewhere and basically ignore the social part.
I still don't get the point of restricting member interactions artificially. Let's assume they'll get 1000 members, that makes for 6000 rounds a year. What sense does that make outside of Augusta National?
And boy would I pissed as a member to sit on the porch on a gorgeous day and watch an empty course - and then the club president or owner comes round the corner and says: "Well, I think I'll go out for another quick nine. Don't you just love restricted member play. Ordinary member, that is!"
Ulrich
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Ulrich,
1. Would you rather pay 10 times as much for the right to play 3 times as much golf whenever you please?
2. I'd assume that a meaningful number of those 1000 members would buy 2 or 3 6-round memberships so that you'd be pushing 10,000 rounds.
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If the club does 5000 rounds at £50 per round then it is taking £250'000 revenue which is more than enough for a 9 hole course. Indeed, you could halve that figure and be okay.
Jon
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Jud,
it's an interesting experiment, for sure. I'm curious as to how it turns out.
I don't think that monetary concerns are the exclusive aspect under which decisions for or against a club are made. Maybe they'll pull in members of other private clubs, who play infrequently and feel they can get the same experience for less at Ullerberg. But wouldn't you say that reasonably frequent players are usually the backbone of club life?
Ulrich
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I can't help but feel the wheel is being, well, not so much reinvented as reassessed for it's merits.
I rather like the idea of this scheme but am not convinced it's anything new. Isn't this really just an extension of the old 'away member' policy here in the UK? A member that doesn't live near to a course pays a suitable membership fee based on their proximity, or lack of, to the club.
I've actually been thinking lately just how much I'd like membership at a good second club but find current prices a little unpalatable. Not that I'm complaining. Clubs are free to charge whatever they think they can reasonably get without overcrowding their courses.
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Ulrich,
I do not get the fact that someone who plays only 6 rounds is anti social? Some of the most anti social people I have met on classic clubs are the people who play there every day.....
I think you can be a very social golfer, even if you only play 6 times a year, and play those rounds with visitors you know well or with other members who you know. It is called the. Match Play club for a reason, you need two players to play a match....
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Frank,
I'm not saying there is a causal relationship between playing frequency and social ambitions. But from my experience there is a statistic relationship. Most casual golfers I know have a lot less time for golf than they would like and they certainly wouldn't give any of that up in favor of social activities. They fight their wife, their boss or their clients to somehow get those five hours every once in a while, but they never stay for drinks after the round. They would love to, but they can't.
But statistics, as we all know, are lies or even damned lies. They mean nothing to a concrete golfer. But there is an interesting bit of information in your last post: do I understand the concept correctly that I can't play alone? I always have to either bring a guest or arrange a match with another member?
That would probably keep the "lone wolf" away and also those who play infrequently due to time constraints. So most of my points are moot then :)
Ulrich
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I like the 6 round thing. If you want to play 60 rounds you buy 10 of em.
Let's assume they'll get 1000 members, that makes for 6000 rounds a year. What sense does that make outside of Augusta National?
Ulrich
Ulrich,
your math is off on a couple of dimensions.
First I assume that members play two rounds of 9 holes per visit. So with a thousand members that is 6 x 2 x 1000 = 12000 rounds
Second I assume they will bring guests for half of their visits. So that is an additional 3 x 2 x 1000 = 6000 rounds
Third I assume there will be 2000 independent green fee players each year. This is an additional 2 x 2000 = 4000 rounds
This gives a total of 22000 rounds a year, not packed but also not exactly Augusta.......
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Frank,
do I understand the concept correctly that I can't play alone? I always have to either bring a guest or arrange a match with another member?
That would probably keep the "lone wolf" away and also those who play infrequently due to time constraints. So most of my points are moot then :)
Ulrich
Yes you play Match play so either 2 or 4 people play together.
The other thing is that people make it a day out with lunch or diner with the person you play with, be it another member or a guest.
The goal is to have groups of friends join, to encourage members to bring guests, and finally to have a good "booking" system that allows you to find other members thinking of playing the same day. The airline KLM has a similar system where you can see which other interesting people are on a flight to say NY, and you then can request to sit next to them if they OK it.
The whole idea is to provide people with a place they can go and play golf and socialise 6 times a year for a much lower price than a full membership.
Not everybody wants to eat at a all you can eat restaurant for 35 euros, some prefer a tapas restaurant where each little dish costs 3 euros and you have 5 dishes......
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Frank,
Would there be competitions that would allow members to play more than their 6 times? I'm thinking of things like a club championship, foursomes tournament, member-guest, couples, etc.
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Frank,
Would there be competitions that would allow members to play more than their 6 times? I'm thinking of things like a club championship, foursomes tournament, member-guest, couples, etc.
Good question, as you can tell the MPC idea is still a work in progress.
I would say yes, tournaments fit well with the Matchplay concept, as long as they do not put too much of a claim on the capacity of the course. Maybe they would be an extra 2 plays.... ?
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Hi Frank,
you're painting a different picture now, your original posting made me think that there would be no greenfee players allowed and some other assumptions like the necessity to play in even numbers.
The way I see it now is that it is marketed more as a "second club" or "resort experience" (in the sense that I go there once a year with my friend or wife and pay greenfee). That is a proven business model, perhaps modulo the match play component, but that shouldn't hurt too much.
cheers,
Ulrich
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Hi Frank,
you're painting a different picture now, your original posting made me think that there would be no greenfee players allowed and some other assumptions like the necessity to play in even numbers.
The way I see it now is that it is marketed more as a "second club" or "resort experience" (in the sense that I go there once a year with my friend or wife and pay greenfee). That is a proven business model, perhaps modulo the match play component, but that shouldn't hurt too much.
cheers,
Ulrich
Yes sorry about not giving you all of the information in one go....
The one catch will be though that the one time green fee will be quite expensive, say 100 euros, in line with the top 10 courses in NL. Idea is to make that green fee creditable if you join after playing your round, so almost seeing it as a trial round.
Finally idea is to make members commit for five years, this will the club the necessary financial stability.
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Well, as a non-German you'd pay 110 Euros to play that terrible racetrack 9 holer in Frankfurt :)
Ulrich
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So, in effect you have a hybrid between a 'pounds for rounds' scheme now being prompted by many of the big chains and 'away member' status. Potential extra flexibility can be thrown in if offering a bit of chopping and changing to allow golf to be played at other clubs in the group. All of this, although hardly revolutionary, I like. Certainly I can see it being a successful business model, not least because it already is.
Really not sure however that matchplay fits in to all of this. Cute idea but surely too much of a paradigm shift, particularly when inherently dealing with a demographic looking for a bit of escapism through golf.
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So, in effect you have a hybrid between a 'pounds for rounds' scheme now being prompted by many of the big chains and 'away member' status. Potential extra flexibility can be thrown in if offering a bit of chopping and changing to allow golf to be played at other clubs in the group. All of this, although hardly revolutionary, I like. Certainly I can see it being a successful business model, not least because it already is.
Really not sure however that matchplay fits in to all of this. Cute idea but surely too much of a paradigm shift, particularly when inherently dealing with a demographic looking for a bit of escapism through golf.
Good question about Matchplay, I agree that is the uncertain part of it all. However, I think the Matchplay element will give the club something special, a more social setting and allow us to design a more excemtric and memorable course with elements that might be called "unfair" in a normal strokeplay setting. That coupled with the reversible course, if well designed and excecuted, should be the differentiating factor.
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So I assume the club is not going to issue official (EGA-based) handicaps for its members?
Ulrich
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So I assume the club is not going to issue official (EGA-based) handicaps for its members?
Ulrich
Its not the plan, you can have handicaps directly with the Dutch Golf Union anyways.
There also won't be a handicap and rules committee.
And the course won't have to be rated by the Dutch Golf Union either.
The benefits of Matchplay. :)
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You don't even have to be a member of the Dutch Golf Union. Money in the bank :)
Ulrich