Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ally Mcintosh on April 09, 2014, 12:16:13 PM
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I'm not sure if I mean full green complexes or just great for natural (or even manufactured) undulations.... Either way, interpret as you see fit and let's get some nominations. Once 18 are reached, any can be struck out by majority agreement...
I'll start with:
1. Prestwick - 13 (Sea Hedrig)
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1. Prestwick - 13 (Sea Hedrig) - Si!
North Berwick 16 - Gate
Pennard 7
Deal 16
B&B 15
Hunstanton 17
Ballybunion 8
TOC 11 (and could probably include a few others)
Dornoch Foxy - dead flat, but what a great green
Ciao
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Rye 7
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Macrihannish 2
Old Macdonald 5 and 7
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5 from left field -
3rd hole, par-3, at The Bann course at Castlerock
8th hole, par-3, at Burnham & Berrow, Channel Course
3rd hole, par-4, at Tenby
9th hole, par-4, at Saunton (East)
The Himalayas at St A :)
atb
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"Dornoch Foxy - dead flat, but what a great green"
Sean A. -
The green on Foxy is definitely not dead flat. I have seen putts break by several feet or more on that green.
The 4th Green at Royal Dornoch is certainly the most dramatic green on the course.
I think the green complex on #15 at RD is the most interesting/challenging. Even though you are rarely more than 100 yards from the green, getting your ball on the green, let alone anywhere near the hole, is still a challenge.
DT
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Echo David and add that the 5th green is one of the great ones at RD.
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Pete Pittock mentioned the first the came to mind -- the 2nd at Machrihanish. ;)
How about the first green at the Eden?
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1 and 4 at Portrush Dunluce
What was the 5th at the Old Tom course at Rosapenna
1 at Ardglass
7 at Western Gailes
6 at Cruden Bay
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Machrihanish 2nd, 3rd and 12th
Dornoch 4th and 14th
St. Andrews Old Course 2nd, 4th, 12th, 16th
St. Andrews Eden Course 1st, 5th, 8th, 10th
Prestwick 3rd, 13th
Muirfield 5th, 15th
North Berwick 16th
Royal St. George's 9th
Lahinch 9th, 11th
Dooks 13th (although I heard a rumor they might be changing it)
Renaissance Club 7th, 8th (new routing - formerly 10th & 11th)
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1 North Berwick 16
2 North Berwick 16
3 North Berwick 16
4 North Berwick 16
5 North Berwick 16
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A few that jump out for me based on what I've played:
Ballybunion #6 did it for me as did the whole high-hole complex (7 and 11) on TOC.
I would also include some of the Colt greens on the Eden: 1, 5 and 8 (current routing) stick in my mind.
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Has North Berwick #16 been mentioned?
The 14th and 17th (poor redan... :'() are worth consideration as well.
9, 10, and 13 at Elie are all very very good.
Is TOC 17th too controversial?
Muirfield's 5th is fantastic (already mentioned).
Although not an original hole, the 10th at Leven is pretty brilliant/
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I think it's a very long and complex debate to decide which has the better set of greens - Deal or the Old course - but I think it would be close.
Fascinating.
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Royal St Georges has a few contenders too. 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 13, 15, 18.
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OK,
Seeing as I started the thread, I'll have the first crack at picking 18 from those above...
Couple of things - Old Rosapenna mentioned 5th is the short par-4 which is currently 13... I think TD likes that one as well... But I always thought the previous green was the marvel so I'm going to put that one in and let someone argue it out for the other one...
I too think 2, 3 & 12 are the great greens at Machrihanish. Think I might actually plump for 12 here and let someone argue it out...
Happy to put in Renaissance 7 (previously 10) ahead of the more talked about green after... Love the run-in to that hole...
Eden 1 can go in... Old Course 2 / 16 will be the starter and get a pass as a double...
Dornoch - I don't know so will go with David's 4th until argued out...
Feel there's got to be one at Machrie?
Anyway - here's the first list... Start swapping:
1. Prestwick 13
2. Rosapenna Old 12th
3. St.Andrews Eden 1st
4. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
5. Dornoch 4th
6. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)
7. Machrihanish 12th
8. North Berwick 16th
9. Ballybunion 6th
10. Muirfield 5th
11. Deal 16th
12. Dooks 13th
13. Pennard 7th
14. Western Gailes 7th
15. Tenby 3rd
16. Burnham & Berrow 15th
17. Rye 7th
18. Royal St Georges 9th
OK - so you need to argue to replace any of the above.... There must be plenty we have forgotten
Ally
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I think you can exchange the Old Course 14, 17 and 18 for most on this list. Unfortunately I do not recall them well enough to make a nomination.
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Ally I thnk it should read like this
1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3 Tenby
4. Dornoch
5 Muirfield
6 Ballybunion
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/Pennard/Rye/Western Gailes
7.
8.
9. Royal St Georges
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish
13. Dooks
14.
15. Burnham & Berrow
16 Deal/ North Berwick
17.
18.
to be cont....
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Ally,
In answer about The Machrie, best greens are 7,8,17
Is this just Europe, Old Macdonald didn't make the cut? I know it's your contest
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9, 10, and 13 at Elie are all very very good.
Have to agree with these suggestions, all really good greens.
Truth is, there are an awful lot of really good links greens out there.
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an honest question, from one who doesn't know to those who do:
would I be safe in saying that any list of the 18 greatest links greens would include a wide variety of greens, with no one quality (e.g. heavily contoured, or very large, or well bunkered/protected) dominating the list or being characteristic of all/most of the greens?
Thanks
Peter
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Royal County Down #7 is the best green I've ever seen for a short par 3. Instead of having a false front, it has a false left side. I have never seen another green like it. It is the first green that came to mind when I was thinking thru Ally's list and what may have been left off.
I am kicking myself for not getting a proper picture of it the first time I visited.
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The green & green complex on the par-3 sixth hole at Brora is very, very good:
http://www.broragolf.co.uk/CourseSection/virtualtour.aspx?EnterHole=6
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I'm not sure if I mean full green complexes or just great for natural (or even manufactured) undulations.... Either way, interpret as you see fit and let's get some nominations. Once 18 are reached, any can be struck out by majority agreement...
I'll start with:
1. Prestwick - 13 (Sea Hedrig)
For full green complexes (my bias will show here) all the par threes at RDGC.
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The 3rd and 12th at Deal are all time greats. 17 and 13 are really underrated as are 7 and 5.
3rd green, not so much. Its a punchbowl type which yields the same sort of results an awful when apporaching. The more I play 3 the less enamoured I am with the hole. That said, it adds an element of variety to the set of greens which is important. Same for 12 - its actually an easy green to approach even though its unusual. 17 is a good green, but I wouldn't have thougt its special 13 is a good green as well. 7 though is an outstanding green. This is the one hole that I think much more highly of these days.
All in all, I think you are correct. I am not sure there is a links in GB&I with a better set of greens than Deal.
What do folks think about Pennard's 16th - or is it too severe?
I agree, Prestwick's 3rd is excellent - it just out of the humpty bumpty fairway. Same for the 9th at Sandwich, don't think #11 is very special though. Lahinch's 9th too is very good and suits a short 4 very well. Not sure about the 11th as Mac's version is sidelined - I think a huge mistake by the club.
Tenby's 3rd - maybe. I like the 12th more. In general, like Pennard, Tenby has one of the better sets of links greens out there.
Rye's 7th puzzles me as well. I think there are better plateau examples such as Tenby's 12th and 3rd.
Ciao
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More, some from under the usual radar settings -
2nd par-3 at Golspie
9th par-4 at Ashburnham
15th par-4 at Tain
16th par-4 at Pyle & Kenfig
7th par-4 at Burnham & Berrow
15th par-4 at Enniscrone
4th par-3 at County Sligo
plus one (not played yet) that has been discussed herein -
3rd at Gweedore
So many to consider, but then again, how many poor/awful/lousy greens are there on links courses!? :)
atb
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Ally I thnk it should read like this
1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3 Tenby
4. Dornoch
5 Muirfield
6 Ballybunion
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/Pennard/Rye/Western Gailes
7.
8.
9. Royal St Georges
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish
13. Dooks
14.
15. Burnham & Berrow
16 Deal/ North Berwick
17.
18.
to be cont....
OK Tony, I will take your lead but we need to get down to 18 overall. These can stand as the candidates:
1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3. Tenby
4. Dornoch / County Sligo
5. Muirfield / Strandhill
6. Ballybunion / Brora
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/ Pennard / Rye / Western Gailes / RCD
8.
9. Royal St Georges / Lahinch
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish / Rosapenna Old
13. Prestwick / Dooks
14.
15. Burnham & Berrow / Portsalon
16. Deal / North Berwick
17.
18.
Pete, I'm not sure I want to include Old Mac... Probably bias to GB&I true links
Thomas - Are they all in contention for best 18 or are you just listing?... Happy to add but I know none of those ones other than Enniscrone which although massively undulating, I'm not a huge fan of... So I'm taking the liberty of leaving off... I'll give you 4 at Rosses Point though
What really wild, natural greens are we missing?... I know - I've just added 5 at Strandhill and 15 at Portsalon
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To me, there are various levels of interest vis a vis greens (links, or otherwise).
1. WhereTF is the green!? I'm pretty sure that more than once I've played my second shot on the 3rd at Prestiwick towards the 4th green, or the 15th........
2. Once I've found myself in the vicinity of (or even on) the green, WTF??? How in Hell do I best golf my ball from point A (where I lie) to point B (the hole). Valley of Sin. Foxy. The 8th at Kingsbarns. Etc.
3. Do I have to seriously consider the option of trying to make the birdie putt or lagging it to avoid a bogey? Above the hole at 11 TOC. On the wrong level at 4 Spyglass. 5-6 feet from the hole when it is mid-left on the 4th at Dornoch.
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Since we're lacking a 17th hole, I think that 17 at Seaton Carew is a very, very good green site.
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Ally,
Three particular considerations to me are -
1) how easy/hard is it to find with your approach shot the area of the green where you wish the ball to come to rest
2) if you miss the green, how easy/hard is the up-n-down
3) if you're on the green, how easy/hard is a long lag putt and how easy/hard is it to miss a short one
To me, these three are the sort of points that, when you are driving away from the course in the car or are chatting in the bar after the round, discussion tends to focus on.
The holes I've mentioned above and in my earlier post are, IMO, greens that fit the bill, some perhaps in a more subtle way than others. For a bit of variety my suggestions also vary from raised plateaus through hump-bumpy to bunkerless at fairway level. I've also attempted to pick some holes which are not from the 'usual suspect' courses (coz that can get, well, a bit yawn inspiring).
Nice thread though. I'll be interested to see how it develops.
atb
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4th Silloth – this green with its narrow shape and dip in the middle, flanked by steep drop offs on either side is perhaps the most intimidating green complex I know that doesn’t have any bunkers. Even with a short or mid iron approach it’s a tough task hitting the green.
7th Covesea – short (c.100 yards ?) par 3 played to green sitting on dune ridge like a saddle such that you’re playing to it from the side and at a slight angle, if you follow what I mean. Ridiculously small and with a fall off at the front and back. Great fun.
16th Moray Old – basically a hidden green with a trench running through it diagonally. It’s probably as close to putting on the Himalayas as you will get on a “proper” course.
15th Glasgow Gailes – now that they have blootered all the gorse in front of the green you get great view of a fantastic green with steep fall off on the left hand side and bunkers back right. Front right appears to be the bail out area if there is one however still a tricky up and down.
1st Eden – the internal contours are simply magnificent.
14th Nairn – the course with the best greens on the north of Scotland and this is perhaps the best of the lot but then if you ask me again tomorrow I might have changed my mind, again.
Honourable Mentions;
4th, 12th and 14th Moray Old
12th Nairn
1st Royal Dornoch
5th and 7th Strathlene
11th and 12th Buckpool
Niall
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Niall,
Look forward to seeing those Moray Old greens in June...
I think what I was really looking for in this thread was a bunch of weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations….
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The problem with greens is you actually need to play a course a fair amount to remember them well. Fortunately I've a weekend playing Deal, Sandwich and Rye so the old memory will get a good jog!
An underrated green at Deal is the first. Its massive which means you find yourself on the green and putting where as you'd be off the green on most courses. Its got masses of movement so your opening putt can be 30+ yards with 3 different breaks. Its very easy to hit in two and walk off with a five which is psychologically miserable at the beginning of a round.
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The problem with greens is you actually need to play a course a fair amount to remember them well. Fortunately I've a weekend playing Deal, Sandwich and Rye so the old memory will get a good jog!
An underrated green at Deal is the first. Its massive which means you find yourself on the green and putting where as you'd be off the green on most courses. Its got masses of movement so your opening putt can be 30+ yards with 3 different breaks. Its very easy to hit in two and walk off with a five which is psychologically miserable at the beginning of a round.
Mark, it's a beautiful green visually also. For me, the big thing about the 1st at Deal is a player is so often faced with about a 30 yard chip over the stream. The rumpled natire of the green makes it far less straightforward than it otherwise might be. It really makes you think carefully about where you should land it, trajectory etc.
Although no chip over a stream is required, I reckon the 7th at Burnham & Berrow is along similar lines. Subtle, yet so easy to make a complete mess of what with the prevailing wind being from behind, that nice left-sided spine all along it's entire length and the way the ground rises up very slightly near the front edge before almost imperceptibly gradually sloping away towards the rear.
Ally,
If you want weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations then how about the par-3 14th at Nairn? Swoops and dives and rises all over the damn place, 3-4 putt heaven. The 2nd and 6th at Golspie and the 3rd at Cruden Bay, are also a bit like this, although the greens sizes are maybe not that large.
Niall,
Do you happen to have any photos of the 7th hole - or any other holes for that matter - at Covesea that you could post? I'm intreagued by it. From the few photos on their website and from Bingmap the location looks to be an absolute cracker.
atb
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Ballybunion 6th
Ballybunion 9th
County Louth 4th
Donegal 5th
Portstewart 6th
Cabot Links 4th
If you like the 6th at the 'Bunion, how can you not think that the 9th isn't at least its equal?
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Ballybunion 6th
Ballybunion 9th
County Louth 4th
Donegal 5th
Portstewart 6th
Cabot Links 4th
If you like the 6th at the 'Bunion, how can you not think that the 9th isn't at least its equal?
Charlie,
The 9th at Ballybunion is a marvel...
And good shout on the 4th at Baltray too... Although the 14th might win the day.
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Ally,
Damn it, good point about the 14th at Baltray!
As soon as I read your post I realized I had some how forgotten that one; that entire hole is a complete mind blower. The fun begins on the drive and gets compounded when you miss that green.
Ally, is it just me, or is that the most underrated links on the planet? It's rated 40th or something like that by Golfweek for GB/Ireland. I played that course two years ago and it blew my mind how good it was. I know it doesn't have the visual vistas that you get at Lahinch, RCD, or Ballybunion, but what Simpson put on the ground there is, to me, about as good as it gets when you measure interest and strategy. In a wind, it's all the course you'd ever want. I had no one behind me the day I played it and the caddie would throw balls down around the greens and have me try different shots. That's how I found out what an incredible green 4 is, and 3, ain't too shabby either; the collection area left, and the undulations that feed the ball left are beyond belief.
I always have fun playing links golf, but I don't know if I've ever had more fun on a seaside course than I had discovering County Louth. I've been lucky enough to play 17 links in Ireland and Baltry is easily in my top 4.
But apparently, that's just me.
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17 - The 17th green at Littlestone. The site is extraordinary and the rolled up back and rolled down front make it perhaps the most exciting hole on the course.
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The problem with greens is you actually need to play a course a fair amount to remember them well. Fortunately I've a weekend playing Deal, Sandwich and Rye so the old memory will get a good jog!
An underrated green at Deal is the first. Its massive which means you find yourself on the green and putting where as you'd be off the green on most courses. Its got masses of movement so your opening putt can be 30+ yards with 3 different breaks. Its very easy to hit in two and walk off with a five which is psychologically miserable at the beginning of a round.
Mark, it's a beautiful green visually also. For me, the big thing about the 1st at Deal is a player is so often faced with about a 30 yard chip over the stream. The rumpled natire of the green makes it far less straightforward than it otherwise might be. It really makes you think carefully about where you should land it, trajectory etc.
Although no chip over a stream is required, I reckon the 7th at Burnham & Berrow is along similar lines. Subtle, yet so easy to make a complete mess of what with the prevailing wind being from behind, that nice left-sided spine all along it's entire length and the way the ground rises up very slightly near the front edge before almost imperceptibly gradually sloping away towards the rear.
I think the big difference there is that if you over or under hit your chip, it's still going to break the same way for the most part. The one at Deal, if you over hit or under hit your chip, you can hit an entirely different slope and it spits it away from the hole, making you look quite foolish.
That said, the 7th at Burnham is an absolute bugger to get close to the hole from short. Really want to get that pin high and on the same side of the ridge as the hole.
Having just played it today and been reminded of it, the 10th hole at Princes (the 1st on the Dunes 9) is a devilish green. Really messes with your head.
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Ally:
If you are keeping it to Great Britain & Ireland, that's fine, but if you are serious about the original title then Barnbougle Dunes has to have one in there. It is 110% links.
The 13th is one of a kind, and would give Sea Headrig a run for its money, but if that number is off the table then any of the 10th, 11th or 17th would be a good fit.
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I recall being fond of the second at Carnoustie and the way it gradually climbed the foot of the dune. The hole is underrated and rarely mentioned.
Bogey
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Ally:
If you are keeping it to Great Britain & Ireland, that's fine, but if you are serious about the original title then Barnbougle Dunes has to have one in there. It is 110% links.
The 13th is one of a kind, and would give Sea Headrig a run for its money, but if that number is off the table then any of the 10th, 11th or 17th would be a good fit.
Not really that hung up on keeping it to GB&I Tom.... But the idea came about from a thread the other day when someone (maybe you?) suggested that there was actually an abundance of links courses without great sets of greens... So I was thinking more GB&I...
And now there's been a bunch of suggestions and I've no way of sifting through which ones are just interesting green complexes because of run-offs or site or strategy... and which ones are natural, undulating wonders worth sitting and staring at for hours because the shapes are so beautiful... The latter category is why I started with Sea Hedrig...
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#3 at The Machrie has a memorable green.
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Niall,
Look forward to seeing those Moray Old greens in June...
I think what I was really looking for in this thread was a bunch of weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations….
Ally
Re Moray - I'm wary of building it up too much particularly after Muldoon and Arble went to Silloth after glowing references from myself and others only to be a bit disappointed. In truth I think Moray Old has some issues however it does have a lot of top notch holes. What makes it special I think is the overal ambience of the place which includes the RAF. Unfortunately for you the Dambusters squadron has temporarily been disbanded so you won't have the please of a Tornado jet flying 50 feet above your head !
Where else are you playing on your trip ?
Niall
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Niall,
Look forward to seeing those Moray Old greens in June...
I think what I was really looking for in this thread was a bunch of weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations….
Ally
Re Moray - I'm wary of building it up too much particularly after Muldoon and Arble went to Silloth after glowing references from myself and others only to be a bit disappointed. In truth I think Moray Old has some issues however it does have a lot of top notch holes. What makes it special I think is the overal ambience of the place which includes the RAF. Unfortunately for you the Dambusters squadron has temporarily been disbanded so you won't have the please of a Tornado jet flying 50 feet above your head !
Where else are you playing on your trip ?
Niall
Huh? I wasn't disappointed with Silloth. I never expected a great course and I don't think I got a great course. I do however have a lot of time for Silloth and think it plenty good enough for a return visit.
Ciao
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I recall two particularly memorable greens at Silloth - one was towards the start of the round, narrow and dropping away steeply at both sides, maybe the 4th hole (?) and the other was a long hole with the green on top of a hill that seemed to roll-off in every direction, a damn hard hole, maybe the 13th hole?
atb
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If this includes links outside of GB&I, I am surprised no one has added any of the spectacular greens at El Saler. I love the angle of the tiers on the 8th, almost parallel to the line of play, and love how bold it's elevation change is. The pin was on the lower level for my last round there and I enjoyed playing with the slope from different spots on and off the green before moving on to the ninth. There are several spectacular false fronts on the course as well that catch your attention.
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I went out to see some of the greens on the Eden Course yesterday. The 1st, 5th and 8th are spectacular, but so is the 2nd and 7th. It's a remarkable set of greens the more you look at the internal features the more your impressed with the undulations, pockets and use of diagonal internal features.. There are some very impressive contours, some as big as anything I've ever seen, others brilliantly more subtle.
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So let's try a latest set:
1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3. Tenby / Machrie
4. Dornoch / County Sligo / Silloth
5. Muirfield / Strandhill
6. Brora
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/ Pennard / Rye / Western Gailes / RCD
8.
9. Royal St Georges / Lahinch / Ballybunion
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish / Rosapenna Old
13. Prestwick / Barnbougle Dunes / Dooks
14. County Louth / Nairn
15. Burnham & Berrow / Portsalon
16. Deal / North Berwick / Moray Old
17. Littlestone / Seaton Carew
18.
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So let's try a latest set:
1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3. Tenby / Machrie
4. Dornoch / County Sligo / Silloth
5. Muirfield / Strandhill
6. Brora
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/ Pennard / Rye / Western Gailes / RCD
8.
9. Royal St Georges / Lahinch / Ballybunion
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish / Rosapenna Old
13. Prestwick / Barnbougle Dunes / Dooks
14. County Louth / Nairn
15. Burnham & Berrow / Portsalon
16. Deal / North Berwick / Moray Old
17. Littlestone / Seaton Carew
18.
I thought someone had singled out (another thread?) the first on the Dunes Nine at Princes which plays as the 10th.
It sits on a spine and needs no bunkers. In a recent Open qualifier 5 pro's were sent back out together playing sudden death for the last place. All 5 failed to hold the green Woosnan chipped in and the others all picked up.
Other fine bunkerless greens at Princes are the 7th Himalayas and 6th Shore.
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I think we need to add some photographs to this thread.... Any of the above...
Here's the punchbowl 5th at Strandhill:
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y468/mcintoshgolf/Photo2_zps7c06aa21.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/mcintoshgolf/media/Photo2_zps7c06aa21.jpg.html)
And here's the 12th at Rosapenna OTM:
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y468/mcintoshgolf/P1010577_zps1ea48052.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/mcintoshgolf/media/P1010577_zps1ea48052.jpg.html)
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Do you want a great 18th green?
On many links courses the 18th is on flatter land to get you back to the clubhouse, but it’s still puzzling that no one has suggested a candidate. Perhaps designers have tended to avoid extreme greens on the finishing holes?
Those that are in a great location and/or have interesting surrounds.
TOC
Wallasey
Saunton East
Dooks
Playing the 18th at RSG an approach from the right is unwise and the left hand side of the green falls away. But like many greens there, get the ball in the right place and you’ll have a flattish put. Very good but not great and the perfect end to a round?
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Have the recent changes to the 11th at TOC made it less than great? ;)
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Ally
On reflection, since you have the 16th fairly well covered can I replace the 16th Moray Old with the 18th at Moray Old. Not nearly as interesting in terms of the internal contours but a cracking green to approach in the context of the hole.
Niall
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Niall, to be honest, I'd prefer to leave in the ones with the interesting internal contours, especially if (apparently) natural.... Doesn't matter if we have some holes missing...
Tony - Could choose any double green from TOC, especially 7/11... But thought I'd stick with just the one...
This exercise is as much about me trying to find greens to study... Always a selfish objective...
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Royal Cinque Ports 1-18.
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To me 7/11 at TOC is the obvious choice.
#7 Pennard
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/SAPennard7g.jpg) (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/SAPennard7g.jpg)
#17 Littlestone - though I probably wouldn't nominate it for this thread
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Littlestone%20GC/140.jpg?t=1343641807) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Littlestone%20GC/140.jpg?t=1343641807)
#10 Princes - a possible candidate if only because the green is incredibly harsh given the length of the hole and wind
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PRINCES%20GC/051-Copy-Copy.jpg?t=127842722) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PRINCES%20GC/051-Copy-Copy.jpg?t=127842722)
#9 Sandwich
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20ST%20GEORGES%20GC/103.jpg?t=1278500717) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20ST%20GEORGES%20GC/103.jpg?t=1278500717)
#6 Ballybunion Old
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/067.jpg?t=1340699989) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/067.jpg?t=1340699989)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/068.jpg?t=1340699997) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/068.jpg?t=1340699997)
I think #8 is the best Ballybunion candidate
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/078.jpg?t=1340700074) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/078.jpg?t=1340700074)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/081.jpg?t=1340700093) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/081.jpg?t=1340700093)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/083.jpg?t=1340700100) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/083.jpg?t=1340700100)
#9 Ballybunion
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/085.jpg?t=1340700115) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BALLYBUNION%20OLD/085.jpg?t=1340700115)
#9 Lahinch - the very long green sort of wraps around the dune
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/LAHINCH%20GC/136.jpg?t=1340704580) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/LAHINCH%20GC/136.jpg?t=1340704580)
Strandhill's 5th is cool because of its position and the front drop, but I think the 1st is a better green for such a reachable par 5.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/STRANDHILL/100_3810.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/STRANDHILL/100_3810.jpg)
#14 Nairn - wonderful green and brutal for such a long par 3
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/NAIRN/100_2689.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/NAIRN/100_2689.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/NAIRN/100_2691.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/NAIRN/100_2691.jpg)
I also forgot a great candidate - Burnham & Berrow's 16th
(http://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Arble30.jpg) (http://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Arble30.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BURNHAM%20AND%20BERROW/002_zps6fc607db.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/BURNHAM%20AND%20BERROW/002_zps6fc607db.jpg)
Co Sligo's 4th - I wouldn't nominate it for this thread, but I like the hole a load.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROSSES%20POINT/100_3858.jpg?t=1242725812) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROSSES%20POINT/100_3858.jpg?t=1242725812)
Ciao
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Ally
earlier Peter asked if we were choosing a wide variety of different types of links greens. Most of those selected don't fit a type as they use unusual land movement and bunkering is not the key feature?
As well as the two additional holes at Princes I referenced an example of an underused 'type' I love is also found on the 13th at Elie
http://www.golfhouseclub.co.uk/the-course/hole-13/
This is a green benched into a dune with a large fall off to the front, but approached from an oblique angle. Thus you have to play to the high side of the green or roll off down the slope. AS you are not hitting directly into the slope the ball will roll on landing and it's hard to predict where it will finish. The 9th at North Berwick almost pulls this off, but being a par 5 most shots in are with a short club and there is the opportunity to position yourself on the LHS of the fairway making it a much simpler shot.
Maybe this becomes easier with multiple plays and is why this 'type' is not so famous, but I have always enjoyed the challenge they present. I have never understood why this 'type' is not used more. I can't decide if they play more difficult than they look, or it's the other way round!
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Sean - You're da man!... Thanks... (Agree about the 1st at Strandhill - need to get rid of the left fronting bunker though)...
10 Princes does look lovely...
6, 8 & 9 at Ballybunion are all great...
9 at Lahinch is 56 yards long last time I paced it... Interesting thing here is everyone believes this is one of the few MacKenzie originals left but I found minutes from 1935 talking about flattening this green also - it was perhaps just less obvious than the other work...
B&B's 16th looks really cool... As does Nairn 14 - I will be seeing that for the first time in June....
Tony - I love the 13th green at Elie... As you say it is of a "type" and that "type" is one of the most copied in modern golf design... i.e. a benched green located at an oblique angle (more often than not the "draw")... There are a lot of examples... Is Elie the best?... Perhaps?....
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Sean - have you been at Burnham since Martin Ebert completed the green extension at 16 over the winter? If so, how does it look? I know Martin is pleased with it.
Here's a picture from Twitter of the work in progress
https://twitter.com/latourthethird/status/396338335226273792 (https://twitter.com/latourthethird/status/396338335226273792)
Adam
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If we're looking for a 10th hole we could do worse than Elie, sloping steeply away from the approach (a wedge if you haven't driven the green) with just a couple of very shallow flatter (but not flat) areas in the front half of the green. Very easy to be through the green in one and still find par tricky.
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Sean - have you been at Burnham since Martin Ebert completed the green extension at 16 over the winter? If so, how does it look? I know Martin is pleased with it.
Adam
Adam
I like the extension a lot if only because they cleared out the buckthorn behind the green :D - something I have advocated for 15 years to create a chipping zone ??? Some members are not sure if they like it and are worried that its too roly poly for hole locations. They may have to do so some flattening, but I hope they open the green as is and see how it goes.
I want you to tell M&E that they need to drop hints on the club to:
1. Knock down the berm behind the 7th green over the water. There is a cool view waiting to be uncovered.
2. Rip out the horrible bush on the corner of 18 fairway and replace it with a bunker.
3. Create fairway left of the fairway bunker on 7.
4. Push the fairway all the way to the water on 7 & 8.
What are you waiting for?
Ciao
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Here's another nominated... Par-3 15th at Portsalon stolen from Mark Ferguson's photo thread with his words... A series of mini-bowls running from high left to low right (angle of approach from right of photo):
The most heavily undulating green on the course, with an absolutely evil back left pin in a bowl behind the bunker that feeds off down the hill.
You might be able to get some idea of it from this.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj26/fingal_album/Portsalon/15thgreen.jpg)
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Tony - I love the 13th green at Elie... As you say it is of a "type" and that "type" is one of the most copied in modern golf design... i.e. a benched green located at an oblique angle (more often than not the "draw")... There are a lot of examples... Is Elie the best?... Perhaps?....
Ally "lot's of examples"? On modern links? Where are you thinking of?
I think it woks particularly well on a links because with the effect of wind and the firm ground, the ball seems to find the slope all to often and run, run away.
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Tony - I love the 13th green at Elie... As you say it is of a "type" and that "type" is one of the most copied in modern golf design... i.e. a benched green located at an oblique angle (more often than not the "draw")... There are a lot of examples... Is Elie the best?... Perhaps?....
Ally "lot's of examples"? On modern links? Where are you thinking of?
I think it woks particularly well on a links because with the effect of wind and the firm ground, the ball seems to find the slope all to often and run, run away.
I meant lots of examples in modern golf design (including some links - I can think of one or two at Noordwijkse for a start and there must be one at Kingsbarns) but especially parkland... I agree it works best on links (as most hole types do)... Examples from older courses - has to be the odd one but happy to go with Elie because it's a beauty...
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Doesn't the 13th at Elie have many similarities as a green to a Redan? Certainly the best shot is nearly always a draw, landing front right and releasing down the green.
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Here's the 7th at Rye:
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020253.jpg~original) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/MSBIII/media/Rye/L1020253.jpg.html)
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Doesn't the 13th at Elie have many similarities as a green to a Redan? Certainly the best shot is nearly always a draw, landing front right and releasing down the green.
Played it today.
Yes it does, but it wasn't the green we talked about all round.
The 4th was the one we thought was absolutely brilliant with its central spine beginning out in the fairway... wow!
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The 1st on the Eden Course
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t31.0-8/1960878_705388439508000_269557483389094536_o.jpg)
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Doesn't the 13th at Elie have many similarities as a green to a Redan? Certainly the best shot is nearly always a draw, landing front right and releasing down the green.
Played it today.
Yes it does, but it wasn't the green we talked about all round.
The 4th was the one we thought was absolutely brilliant with its central spine beginning out in the fairway... wow!
Ian (or anyone else),
You don't have a photo, do you?... It's too long since I played Elie and I can't recall the 4th green at all...
Ally
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Doesn't the 13th at Elie have many similarities as a green to a Redan? Certainly the best shot is nearly always a draw, landing front right and releasing down the green.
Played it today.
Yes it does, but it wasn't the green we talked about all round.
The 4th was the one we thought was absolutely brilliant with its central spine beginning out in the fairway... wow!
Ian (or anyone else),
You don't have a photo, do you?... It's too long since I played Elie and I can't recall the 4th green at all...
Ally
Ally, From a special Tony award winning thread!
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50582.0.html
The 4th has been discussed on here: like the 8th at Burnham and Berrow what makes the holes a spine running down the centre of the fairway. The careful player will observe where the pin is and play to that side of the fairway. A very cool and subtle feature.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7155/6507349555_200ff24a97_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7147/6507358011_10b4ef0625_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7155/6507365831_e9ef6a79bd_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7008/6507368857_16e40d267b_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7164/6507372037_6b843178e2_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7018/6507385075_13c94c548d_b.jpg)
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Doesn't the 13th at Elie have many similarities as a green to a Redan? Certainly the best shot is nearly always a draw, landing front right and releasing down the green.
Played it today.
Yes it does, but it wasn't the green we talked about all round.
This puzzles me a little
On the Original Redan you don’t need a draw to get the ball running down the hill. Too much of a draw and you can finish a long way off the green. ON these benched holes I would have thought the ideal shot was high and travelling as much as you can manage perpendicular to the overall slope i.e. at Elie a fade? As I said above getting the balling running on those greens in my experience normally leads to disaster.
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I was thinking an 18th candidate could be Seascale.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/102.jpg?t=1308727688) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/102.jpg?t=1308727688)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/104.jpg?t=1308727688) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/104.jpg?t=1308727688)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/046.jpg?t=1308727686) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/SEASCALE%20GC/046.jpg?t=1308727686)
Ciao
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I think Baltray's 14th can fit in any 18.
I went looking for a picture, and what did I find?
Ian Andrew has posted on his website a copy of a
wonderfully detailed sketch of the contours of the whole green and site,
done by Tom Mackenzie, and published in one of Paul Daley's books.
Here is the link to Ian's site.
Tom Mackenzie's Sketch of Baltray 14th (http://ianandrewsgolfdesignblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/10-best-greens-14th-at-baltray.html)
And from the club's website:
County Louth Golf Club, Baltray (http://countylouthgolfclub.com/gallery-photos.html?galAlbum=2)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/nregan/GCA/9dbcde9e9654f6c30746ef6d39afd39a.jpg)
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There are a couple of greens at Royal Porthcawl that are pretty good. The 9th on top of the hill (don't miss) and the 18th I think had a pretty impressive set of internal contours. Tough to get the ball close to the hole. Sorry i don't have any pictures.
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There are a couple of greens at Royal Porthcawl that are pretty good. The 9th on top of the hill (don't miss) and the 18th I think had a pretty impressive set of internal contours. Tough to get the ball close to the hole. Sorry i don't have any pictures.
9th and 18th at Royal Porthcawl are both good choices. The 18th at Ashburnham, not maybe the greatest hole, has a horrid green to hit and hold and putt on.
10th at Royal St Georges, Tom Kites green, a right bugger to play, rolls-off everywhere.
Which holes now have no nominations?
atb
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Tony,
The only way for most golfers to get anywhere near a back left pin position on 13 at Elie is to land a draw front right and let it feed back using the slope. A fade will stay front right and almost guarantee 3 putts.
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Ian,
The 4th at Elie is a wonderful green though as Tony says, the ridge that makes it runs almost the length of the fairway. Brilliant use of a simple natural feature. It must have been tempting to set the green off to one side or the other but to place it over the ridge makes the hole.
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16 at Pennard
It's in your head from the tee shot on
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Only a tiddler par-3......but don't miss the putting surface.
(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6489/n0lv.jpg)
Oh, and and it's not quite what it seems at the front either
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1610/2ydx.jpg)
atb
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Ally
On reflection, since you have the 16th fairly well covered can I replace the 16th Moray Old with the 18th at Moray Old. Not nearly as interesting in terms of the internal contours but a cracking green to approach in the context of the hole.
Niall
OK,
I'm just back from a tour of the highlands where I certainly saw some great links greens with great internal contouring.
Niall,
Regards Moray Old, I loved the course which I might talk about elsewhere. 16 is definitely a great green but I may go for 14 ahead of it.... On reflection and keeping to a minimum (i.e greens that could actually fit in to the best 18), here are some nominations from my trip:
Royal Dornoch - 4th
Moray Old - 14th
Golspie - 2nd
Brora - 6th
Nairn Dunbar - 18th
I saw some wonderful greens at Castle Stuart as well. Some highly individual greens at Jon Wigget's Brahan too. But I'm keeping this to the classics.
Nairn Dunbar was possibly my least favourite course of the trip (Boat of Garten is the only other course I played not mentioned above) but it had some great moments and that 2nd shot and approach to 18 is a cracker.
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Ally
Re Nairn Dunbar - not so much a game of two halves but of three thirds. Loved the first half dozen, quite enjoyed the next half dozen which had some of the new holes however the last third was a bit blah although nothing really offensive. Yes, the 18th is a nice green but think there's better in the first third.
Re Moray Old - I agree the 14th has some really strong internal contours however I always thought it sat awkwardly the way it was tucked round the corner and sitting at at an angle. Probably fine when it was built and assuming it was a 3 shotter. I also assume the green is a later revsion with the original green being the area just over the ridge beyond the landing lights. If you were to make a tee in the gorse to the left of the fairway beyond the left hand landing lights it would be a great par 3.
Anyway, look forward to getting some chat on Moray Old on a seperate thread. Any photos to show ?
Niall
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2nd green at The Old Course:
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y468/mcintoshgolf/TOC-2ndGreen_zps7cfa23a6.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/mcintoshgolf/media/TOC-2ndGreen_zps7cfa23a6.jpg.html)
1st Green on the Eden:
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y468/mcintoshgolf/StAndrewsEden1stGreen_zps544ff3a0.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/mcintoshgolf/media/StAndrewsEden1stGreen_zps544ff3a0.jpg.html)
4th Green on the Eden:
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y468/mcintoshgolf/StAndrewsEden-4thGreen_zps9c5e17c5.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/mcintoshgolf/media/StAndrewsEden-4thGreen_zps9c5e17c5.jpg.html)
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Prestwick #9 and #15 are two favourites...
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Fraserburgh 13 and Cruden Bay 6 come to mind,
RSG 4, 6 and 13 as well. Deal 3, 12. Royal Hague 6.
Old Mac 5, 13. Pac Dunes 2.
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I recently played Panmure twice, and 4, 5, 6, 9 and 12 were as good as any I have seen.
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Christian 4 at RSG is an interesting one, its one of the games great drives, the green is quite big and has a massive slope but the top section is quite small and there are finite pin positions. When you play the course a lot the pin is nearly always in the same place.
I wholeheartedly agree with 13 it's the green that makes the hole especially from the boring Open tee which makes the hole straight and takes away the blind the shot.
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Sorry, there is no perfect answer to this question.
Perhaps, again, the Gate at North Berwick West.
Malcolm
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13 at Elie. A flattish inclined green but brilliantly benched into the hill at an angle to the line of play. 4, 5, 6, 9 and 10 at Elie are also great greens.
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The restoration of Old Tom Morris' green on Hole 5 at Cruden Bay brings the hole to life. Has anyone played it recently? https://mobile.twitter.com/CrudenBayPro/status/456004234937643008 (https://mobile.twitter.com/CrudenBayPro/status/456004234937643008)
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Ally,
In answer about The Machrie, best greens are 7,8,17
Is this just Europe, Old Macdonald didn't make the cut? I know it's your contest
The 3rd green at The Machrie is special IMHO.
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Ok there’s some great 14th holes in this list but when I played my first round at Leven I wondered why I’d never heard talk of their hole.
http://www.leven-links.com/course-guide.php
The green is on a raised promontory that comes out from the left – sort of a reverse Foxy.
It has a slight tilt from left to right, but the most extraordinary feature are the ‘sides’ are raised with a valley in the centre, like an oblique version of Deals 12th.
It’s long, maybe as long as North Berwick’s 16th.
The hole is only 340 yards but the pro’s note says this is the most difficult approach on the course. Difficult yet fun, meets my criteria for great.
Does anyone have photo's?
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Montrose 16th has to be on this list. An extraordinary green on a course with generally flat greens.
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From Ed Tilley's Dooks thread.
The 13th Hole (RIP)
Here's the old hole from about halfway I think:
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/edtilley/dooks/Dooks20154.jpg)[/URL]
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I recently played Panmure twice, and 4, 5, 6, 9 and 12 were as good as any I have seen.
Rich
I played Panmure for the first time earlier this year and agree totally about the greens. Not overly big but some fantastic contours.
Niall
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Ally
earlier Peter asked if we were choosing a wide variety of different types of links greens. Most of those selected don't fit a type as they use unusual land movement and bunkering is not the key feature?
As well as the two additional holes at Princes I referenced an example of an underused 'type' I love is also found on the 13th at Elie
http://www.golfhouseclub.co.uk/the-course/hole-13/ (http://www.golfhouseclub.co.uk/the-course/hole-13/)
This is a green benched into a dune with a large fall off to the front, but approached from an oblique angle. Thus you have to play to the high side of the green or roll off down the slope. AS you are not hitting directly into the slope the ball will roll on landing and it's hard to predict where it will finish. The 9th at North Berwick almost pulls this off, but being a par 5 most shots in are with a short club and there is the opportunity to position yourself on the LHS of the fairway making it a much simpler shot.
Maybe this becomes easier with multiple plays and is why this 'type' is not so famous, but I have always enjoyed the challenge they present. I have never understood why this 'type' is not used more. I can't decide if they play more difficult than they look, or it's the other way round!
Definitely my favorite hole at Elie, although I do love driving the 7th green! (2/2!)
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Rye 7
It's a great hole but it is more about getting aboard than the putt on the green. How about the 16th? It flows all over the place, has generous pin positions and absolute swines — like the little flattish ledge to the right that I know they will use for the upcoming club championship in two weeks' time.
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Revisiting this thread has me wondering how much higher most, if not all, folks handicaps would be if we had to play a composite course made up of the various green complexes (holes) nominated herein. Great fun it would be though!
Atb