Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ben Jarvis on April 03, 2014, 07:22:05 PM
-
Carrying on from Mark Saltzman's recent Match Play threads in another forum, I thought it would be interesting to compare two of Dr Alister MacKenzie's masterpieces (and perhaps most in tact) - Cypress Point and Royal Melbourne West.
I have been very fortunate to play the West Course at Royal Melbourne many times, and feel that I am now starting to develop an intimate knowledge of the course. Having played Cypress Point just the once, there is obviously a lot for me to still learn and appreciate.
Both courses are beautifully natural. Cypress Point flows through it's three different environments so wonderfully - duneland, forest and ocean. The West Course at Royal Melbourne is routed over near perfect terrain for golf. Everything feels like it just sits into the land so naturally.
Cypress Point Club
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPCAerial_zpsc81e7ed5.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPCAerial_zpsc81e7ed5.jpg.html)
"For years I have been contending that in our generation no other golf course could possibly compete with the strategic problems, the thrills, the excitement, variety and lasting and increasing interest of the Old Course, but the completion of Cypress Point has made me change my mind". Dr Alister MacKenzie
"A near-perfect collaboration between the greatest golf architect of all time and the finest piece of golfing ground". Darius Oliver
Royal Melbourne West
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMWAerial_zps8e0df217.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMWAerial_zps8e0df217.jpg.html)
"It burns me up that with the billions of dollars spent on course construction in the past fifty years, all the architects together haven’t been able to build another Royal Melbourne." Gene Sarazen
"Much has been written on the qualities of the West Course, but put simply it is the combination of great land, great design and great construction that makes it so special". Darius Oliver
"Royal Melbourne, I think, is the course Augusta wants to be: wide enough for anybody, but brilliantly routed to make use of the topography and bunkered to reward bold play and bold decisions". Tom Doak
CYPRESS POINT vs ROYAL MELBOURNE WEST
Hole 1
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC1_zpsb489a69f.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC1_zpsb489a69f.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW1_zps003b4dad.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW1_zps003b4dad.jpg.html)
Please provide commentary...
-
Ben,
The opening hole at Royal Melbourne struck me as an almost perfect gentle start, but the first at Cypress Point generated a lot more excitement. So much great golf lies ahead on both courses. I would have favor RM, not because I think it is better than #1 at CP, but because I like the gentle start.
-
"This game's too rich for me".
I've played CPC once, at age 14, with my dad. If I can play RMW once before I'm 64, in just a few years, that would be wonderful.
I'll enjoy this thread.
-
As an opening hole, RMW is ideal in the sense that it has a wide fairway and very little trouble around the green. There is a significant slope from left to right, and attention must be paid to avoid three-putting (take note Jonathan Becker) if you're above the hole. It get's your round away nicely, but you could forgive the first-timer for thinking "why all the fuss about RM".
I love the uniqueness of the 1st tee at CPC. Standing up by the Pro Shop and hitting over the hedge is very cool.
It's a tough call for me, but..
CPC 1 up
-
Ben last time I played RMW the greens had that light blue hue they get when rock hard, it was extremely difficult not to 3 putt! I could not see 1CPC due to mist even after a good tee shot so I'll give this to 1RMW.
-
I haven't played RM but the first at CPC is prolly the only weak link.
Blind drive over a hedge... AS is a fairer result - surely!
-
The 1st at CPC is not an easy hole. Getting the 2nd shot close is very difficult and that green is so slanted that any ball above the hole is almost an automatic 3 putt.
-
Exciting thread. Agreed that RMW1 at first doesn't really excite the senses but the more you play it and the more you understand its place in the jigsaw its pure genius. Its understated. A tee distant from the buzz, a wide fairway and a large subtle green with an unmenancing bunker hardly belies what the reflection will in time reveal.
The first tee at Cypress Point has a real buzz, an excitement only compared with say the first tee at the Old. Its old school. Nothing pretentious. You are warmly welcomed to take your place in the queue. You practice putt as the caddies spit out their "gollies" and the anticipation grows. As your turn comes up, you hit over a hedge with your only wish that you atleast clear it. Exhaling after getting one away you finally relax into the round and this magnificent routing opens its pages as you face your first approach.
Its a tough call and an easy half in some respects but I'm gonna call RMW1 the victor - I just feel its principles are truer in the grander scheme and fit the overall puzzle cleaner.
-
Hole 2
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC2_zpsacb52ad4.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC2_zpsacb52ad4.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW2_zps62873d2f.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW2_zps62873d2f.jpg.html)
Both par-5's and both very good. I'm giving it to RMW, as I think drive is now more thoughtful with the new back tee (bringing into play the bunker) and the long second is really good to an open green that asks for a low running draw.
Match: all square after 2
-
The tee shot on the 2nd is quite "thoughtful" as well. OB to the right and you have to carry the ledge on the left. Its a very demanding tee shot.
After that I don't see much at CPC, its reachable if you hit a good drive and the layup isn't that hard. The green to me isn't that difficult.
-
Both good 5s with some similar virtues off the tee. Enjoyable three shotters that offer opportunity that assist you into the round. I prefer RMW 2s greens complex so agree with your call Ben.
-
The tee shot on the 2nd is quite "thoughtful" as well. OB to the right and you have to carry the ledge on the left. Its a very demanding tee shot.
After that I don't see much at CPC, its reachable if you hit a good drive and the layup isn't that hard. The green to me isn't that difficult.
Joel, I agree with you re: the drive at CPC. The drive at RMW used to be a simple blast over the bunker. Now, with a lengthened tee, you (or at least I) have to hit a solid drive to carry the bunker when the tee shot is playing into a slight breeze.
-
Hole 3
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC3_zps32fb180d.jpg)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW3_zps88d9cbda.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC3_zps32fb180d.jpg.html)
One of the great approach shots in golf is found at RMW #3. The green is beautifully constructed, sloping from front to back. The short approach shot is further complicated by a tremendous swale in front of the green, forcing a perfectly judged shot.
I could hit shots for hours into this green, and I would still be questioning what the best shot is to play.
Match: RMW 1 up
-
Hole 4
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC4_zpsa699a564.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC4_zpsa699a564.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW4_zps696e67c1.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW4_zps696e67c1.jpg.html)
I like both holes here but RMW wins out for me.
The long second from a downhill lie at RMW is one of my favourites anywhere. It's a very rewarding shot when you see your ball carry the large bunkers down the right and then bound onto the green.
Improvements have been made to the tee shot, where Tom Doak has restored the landing zone to the LHS of the drive bunkers on the hill. With very little room up the right for the shoter hitter, this recently added landing zone allows the shorter hitter to play left and hopefully past the bunkers without having to lay-up short.
Personally, I'd like to see some of the dense low-lying vegetation down the RHS of the fairway removed and therefore opening up the beautiful view down to the green.
Match: RMW 2 up
-
Hole 5
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC5_zps0e0a7a5e.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC5_zps0e0a7a5e.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW5_zps0dcbfab7.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW5_zps0dcbfab7.jpg.html)
A par-5 vs a par-3 and both exceptional in their own right.
The 5th hole on the West Course is a sublime par-3 where your tee shot is hit over a valley into a back-to-front sloping green. I recall my jaw dropping when stepping onto this tee for the first time. The scale of the hole is so much larger than photos suggest. I still smile everytime I play this hole.
I recall the highlight of the 5th at CPC as being the heroic uphill second shot over the striking MacKenzie bunkering. It was also fascinating to look back from the green and not see one of those bunkers one must avoid.
As good as this hole at CPC is, RMW #5 cannot be beaten.
Match: RMW 3 up
-
This is like The Masters, the front 9 is the warm up and the back 9 is where it matters, RMW needs to be at least 3 up after 10.
CPC wins hands down in the "surrounding properties" category!
-
This is like The Masters, the front 9 is the warm up and the back 9 is where it matters, RMW needs to be at least 3 up after 10.
CPC wins hands down in the "surrounding properties" category!
Except we know RMW is going to win 18. Can it halve/win 17?
-
Except we know RMW is going to win 18. Can it halve/win 17?
By my quick take, it will have to win 17 in order to take the match to 18. And it won't win 17, though it might get a conceded half.
-
Hole 6
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC6_zpsa595002b.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC6_zpsa595002b.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW6_zpsb10f44bd.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW6_zpsb10f44bd.jpg.html)
One of the worlds great par-4s lies here at RM. No further comments needed.
Match: RMW 4 up
-
Hole 7
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC7_zps21f99a38.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC7_zps21f99a38.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW7_zpsc89a4668.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW7_zpsc89a4668.jpg.html)
Both par-3s here and for me, RMW continues its early dominance with a win.
The 7th at RMW is perhaps my favourite of all par-3s on property. There aren't many great uphill one-shotters, but this is one of them.
Match: RMW 5 up
-
Homer decision there Ben, have to disagree with you, at best RMW gets a half.
-
I'm really enjoying this thread. Thanks.
-
Homer decision there Ben, have to disagree with you, at best RMW gets a half.
I'd be interested to hear why you think #7 at CPC is the better hole?
Personally, I feel that the 7th at RMW provides multiple shot options from the tee, with some wonderful contouring at the green.
Is the 7th at CPC a little more one-dimensional?
-
Hole 8
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC8_zpsf1910a29.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC8_zpsf1910a29.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW8_zps88f5741e.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW8_zps88f5741e.jpg.html)
Cypress needs to make up a lot of ground now and makes some inroads here at the 8th.
Like The early holes at CPC, the 8th at RMW does not lose out due to being a poor hole.
This ultimately will prove to be a common theme, as great golf holes are up against one another.
Match: RMW 4 up
-
are the mowing lines at Cypress as bad as they look on the aerials?
-
Hole 9
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC9_zps28c078f4.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC9_zps28c078f4.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW9_zps721ac787.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW9_zps721ac787.jpg.html)
I always love a great short 4, so Cypress wins back-to-back holes to close out the front 9 for me.
Match: RMW 3 up
-
I'm curious how others who know both courses score them at this point in the match.
-
I've RMW 2up as I give the 7th a half. Only played CPC once but know RMW pretty well having played it 6/7 times including the Composite.
Ben I have 7th as the third best par 3 on each course, I am a fan of short par 3s which 7 RMW is a good example of. For me CPC was a tougher shot to judge and get right, RMW also seems an anti climax after 4 world class holes on the bounce. We are splitting hairs though on the best the game can offer!
-
I've RMW 2up as I give the 7th a half. Only played CPC once but know RMW pretty well having played it 6/7 times including the Composite.
Ben I have 7th as the third best par 3 on each course, I am a fan of short par 3s which 7 RMW is a good example of. For me CPC was a tougher shot to judge and get right, RMW also seems an anti climax after 4 world class holes on the bounce. We are splitting hairs though on the best the game can offer!
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
-
Hole 10
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC10_zps1652a91a.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC10_zps1652a91a.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW10_zps2d362269.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW10_zps2d362269.jpg.html)
No contest here and perhaps a much needed win for RMW, as we know what CPC is like down the stretch..
Match: RMW 4 up
-
Isn't 10 RMW just and 3 iron, flick or a good biff with a lightly drawn driver?............................
-
Isn't 10 RMW just and 3 iron, flick or a good biff with a lightly drawn driver?............................
I agree but the 10th at CPC is really just a par 4. I played in front of Phil Mickelson here a few years ago and he hit driver - 9 iron.
-
Isn't 10 RMW just and 3 iron, flick or a good biff with a lightly drawn driver?............................
Of course it is. Just don't pull or hook or fade or push or mishit or overhit your driver. and I hope you have balls of steel on that pitch after a 3 iron. Easy hole.
-
Mark its the classic 3/4 wedge approach, even from the perfect spot its a devil of a shot.
-
Hole 11
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC11_zpsdd792a85.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC11_zpsdd792a85.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW11_zps79451451.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW11_zps79451451.jpg.html)
I really like both holes. Strategically, I think the 11th at RMW asks more of you, however I just love the transition from forest to dunes at CPC. A halved hole for me.
Match: RMW 4 up
-
Hole 12
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC12_zps463410fd.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC12_zps463410fd.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW12_zps6902ff7a.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW12_zps6902ff7a.jpg.html)
This one wasn't easy and arguably I could have given the 12th hole a half. However, I'm giving it to Cypress. I'm fond of the requirement to hit a fade and draw, whilst aesthetically, I like the green set at the base of the sand dune on the right and ocean behind.
Match: RMW 3 up
-
Sorry to be chiming in a little bit late. I an avid admirer of RM West, so I am probably biased. Can anyone think of a better six hole stretch than RMW 2 - 7? I can't think of a better sequence of holes anywhere that I have played. Curious to hear if others agree?
George
-
Sorry to be chiming in a little bit late. I an avid admirer of RM West, so I am probably biased. Can anyone think of a better six hole stretch than RMW 2 - 7? I can't think of a better sequence of holes anywhere that I have played. Curious to hear if others agree?
George
I would agree with this and I was saying it before I even stepped foot on the property at Royal Melbourne! Head to head though, because of all the deception on the hole and the many ways it can be played, I will pick CPC 5 over RMW 5 for this thread. Even I can't believe I just posted that because RMW 5 might be the best inland par 3 I've played. Who can say though? Difficult decisions have to be made in this thread. The most difficult actually.
Here's how I have it right now....
1-CPC
2-RMW
3-RMW
4-RMW
5-CPC
6-RMW
7-RMW
8-CPC
9-CPC
10-RMW
11-CPC
12-CPC
Even
-
Hole 13
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC13_zps172d2dc9.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC13_zps172d2dc9.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW13_zps2c1a2c4c.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW13_zps2c1a2c4c.jpg.html)
Whilst the 13th at RMW is a great example if how to build a wonderful par-3 over some fairly bland flat land, I can't go past CPC here.
Match: RMW 2 up
-
I must apologise for my absence of late.
Back to the match;
Hole 14
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC14_zps96db4593.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC14_zps96db4593.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW14_zps39f34193.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW14_zps39f34193.jpg.html)
I'm not sure where I sit with the 14th hole. I keep hearing that 14 at RMW is a weak hole but on the contrary, I quite like it. No matter where the pin is, but particularly when on the right half, your approach shot needs to come in from the left side of the fairway. This brings into danger the dense shrubbery.
At CPC, I really like the elevated tee shot to a fairway that bends to the right, progressively getting narrower as it gently rises up through the cypress trees. The approach shot then plays a little longer than its yardage, but being long does no favours, as I quickly found out when my approach trickled over the back of the green.
I'm not convinced 110% but I'm leaning to CPC here.
Match: RMW 1 up
-
This thread is fantastic. I would say I am on pins and needles but at this point, we sort of know the CP will win 15 and 16 and very likely 17 and lose 18. Keep writing--really terrific reading. Thx.
-
Hole 15
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC15_zps7a27fed8.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC15_zps7a27fed8.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW15_zpsb95d2142.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW15_zpsb95d2142.jpg.html)
No commentary required here.
Match: all square
-
Hole 16
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC16_zps93aeffdd.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC16_zps93aeffdd.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW16_zps3c060300.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW16_zps3c060300.jpg.html)
The 16th hole at RMW is perhaps the best example of how a long par-3 over flat and relatively bland terrain can work exceptonally well. Shame it's up against the best long par-3 situated on the most dramatic terrain found anywhere in the world.
Match: CPC 1 up
-
I'm guessing this question has been raised before, but I haven't seen it, so here goes. Looks like as you walk about 15 yards or so off the #15 green at CPC, there's room for an alternate tee for #16. This tee would turn the hole into a 435 yard par 4, with at least three ways to play it:
1. Hit your tee shot along the coast, over the existing #16 tee. 190 yard shot. From there you go for the green (r230 yards?), or play to the existing bailout area and then the green.
2. Drive to the current bailout area. Around 210 yard carry. Pitch to the green.
3. Go for the green. 275 carry or more.
I don't know the land -- am going strictly on what I see over the net. Is this feasible given the site (and forgetting the Coastal Commission for the monen)? A good hole? Could players tee it up now and try it?
I know Raynor wanted to make #16 a par 4. Did he have something like this in mind?
-
I'm guessing this question has been raised before, but I haven't seen it, so here goes. Looks like as you walk about 15 yards or so off the #15 green at CPC, there's room for an alternate tee for #16. This tee would turn the hole into a 435 yard par 4, with at least three ways to play it:
1. Hit your tee shot along the coast, over the existing #16 tee. 190 yard shot. From there you go for the green (r230 yards?), or play to the existing bailout area and then the green.
2. Drive to the current bailout area. Around 210 yard carry. Pitch to the green.
3. Go for the green. 275 carry or more.
I don't know the land -- am going strictly on what I see over the net. Is this feasible given the site (and forgetting the Coastal Commission for the monen)? A good hole? Could players tee it up now and try it?
I know Raynor wanted to make #16 a par 4. Did he have something like this in mind?
I've not heard this before, but it would provide some heroic driving options for golfers of all skill levels.
-
Hole 17
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC17_zpsbf21f636.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC17_zpsbf21f636.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW17_zpsb27e6065.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW17_zpsb27e6065.jpg.html)
The site of 17 at CPC is just incredible - dramatic and beautiful. It must be one of the greatest places on earth. The trees in the middle of the fairway asks you questions, but I'm not 100% certain they should be there.
17 at RMW is just a classic hole, bending to the left to a green which is set into a natural hill. The bunkering on the RHS of the green is just spectacular, whilst MacKenzie has left the entire front and LHS side free of hazards.
CPC can't lose this hole, but neither can RMW for me. Controversial, perhaps?
Match: CPC 1 up
-
And Ben sets up a tie with two less than perfect 18th holes to come!
-
And Ben sets up a tie with two less than perfect 18th holes to come!
No set up here, Mark. I sat down and recorded my hole-by-hole result without keeping a running tally.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on 17.
-
Hole 18
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/CPC18_zps90d59f55.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/CPC18_zps90d59f55.jpg.html)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/bennyj08/RMW18_zpsf5ad14cf.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/bennyj08/media/RMW18_zpsf5ad14cf.jpg.html)
This has to go to RMW. It's a very good tee shot, where you really want to hug the dangerous RHS in order to shorten the approach shot into a huge green. Whilst not obvious, there is a severe left to right break in the green.
Final Result: all square
-
Never played it or even seen it in the flesh, but the 18th at CPC looks so out of place. Can someone enlighten me?